Linda Perry + Don Hardy | Music, filmmaking, grief, and the power of vulnerability

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So, instead of the awkward part of podcasts where I just like talk about you guys while you sit here, we use -- I'm good with that. Thanks. I'm going ahead. We use this moment for you guys to introduce each other to the world and brag about each other instead of me just listing your credits awkwardly. So, whoever would like to go first, please introduce everyone watching. So, I'm not Don Hardy, and this is Don Hardy, and the reason he's an incredible -- well, you also -- he films everything, too. He's a great cinematographer. Oh, cool. He's a director and a wonderful fly on the wall. It's like I can imagine a little fly with a little, you know, thing, the little camera. But Don -- and I worked on this film -- he actually brought me into it and called Citizen Pan. It was about Sean Pan when he went and, you know, just single-handedly scooping up, you know, you know, everybody in Haiti, when the earthquake happened, and I got a call on, I think it was December 27th, I don't know what year it was. Hey, it was from -- guys from the Corps. Hey, is this Linda Perry, yes. We hear that you're really great at putting on fundraisers, and I -- Well, why 'cause you did the one for the LGBTs -- for like seven years. And they're like, I -- we heard that you're the person to call, and we're in big trouble because we're have this event coming up, and we don't have anything. And we're wondering if there's any way you could help us out. And I'm like, you know, of course, they tell me what it is, and I'm like, okay, when is it? They're like January 3rd, and I'm all -- what? It's December -- you understand it's December 27th right now, and you're talking about January 3rd. And they're like, yeah, and I'm like, okay, Sean Pan, fuck it, I'm going for it, man, you know. I get Billie Eilish, I get Macy Gray, Beck, St. Vincent, I think, and then we all pull together and you got Kat Stevens, and he was having a problem coming into the country. Anyways, that's how him and I met, and then he offered. He said, I think you would be really great at scoring, and I just put that into the universe I want to score a film, and then he said then, I think I told you that too, I was like, oh my god, I was just saying I want to score a film. Yeah. That's how he met, and then that's all I got, but he's a wonderful friend, a great director, and really, really -- Don sees the story in the chaos, you know, and he made a whole documentary on me about seeing this chaos and found the story in the through line. Please tell me everyone in between, that's Don. Yeah. Dr. Don. Don introduced Linda to everyone. Does there folk people that don't know Linda Perry? You know Justin Kanks. Justin Kanks. There are. Okay. Okay. Well, I think we all probably started knowing Linda Perry with a band called "Forn on Blonds," as she was the lead singer and songwriter for, and there's this little song called "What's Love" that people might recognize. Maybe in a supermarket, like when aisle 7, something like that. Do people send you a lot of copies of people singing this song? Yeah, tell me. Is now -- I feel like I need to make a movie on just that, all the like iPhone recordings, videos I've gotten from people all over the world singing what's up. Well, I think before I ever met you, someone sent you a video of my sister-in-law's funeral. Yes. Of everyone singing that song. Yes. Yeah. It was a lot of funerals for some reason. Yeah. I get a lot of funerals. It was her favorite song, and I was like, let's just celebrate at the end of the funeral and sing that song. Anyway, I interrupted your introduction. No, no. It's true. So that's how I first knew Linda. And then as she mentioned, this chance meeting, you know, as all good things come from Sean Penn, you know, we've happened to meet there, and we talked about this movie. And I knew of Linda's other work, too, that we shouldn't trivialize in any way. We're talking songs like Beautiful that she wrote for Kristian Aguilera that became huge defining songs. Somebody stood up. We did a Q&A after the screening last night, and somebody stood up and said that song has saved a lot of lives. Yeah. And I really thought a lot about that over the past 24 hours. Really? Yeah. I mean, do you ever think about that? The weight of a song like that that you wrote that it could save lives? I mean, I don't think I look at myself as that grandiose. I'm not coming from that point of view. I'm just writing a song as clear and honest as I possibly can. And I always think honesty is what helps people. Yeah. Thank you. We got that right. Don, when you were like, I think you'd be a great subject for a documentary, what was that? What made you think that I would like to make a movie about you? Well, when we were collaborating on Citizen Penn, it happened. I believe when we met at that gala that you mentioned, it was the beginning of 2018. So that happened. We started working together and then perhaps it maybe was 2019, the top of 2019. Anyhow, when we were really in the thick of trying to do the score for it, it was COVID. And so we really couldn't work together that much. I live up in the San Francisco Bay area. So we started doing stuff as I recall through Zoom, but it wasn't there in the studio. At least we were forging in that time a relationship, more like a director, composer relationship. And then when things started to open up a bit, I did ask, could I come into the studio and I didn't have a, no, I did not say I was making a documentary out of the gate, but we just started spending time together. And that time turned into me with a camera filming and we start just filming things. And again, spending that time together. And when I look at the film now, all these years later, we're talking six years later, really. I feel like what I love about the movie is it's, it feels like a conversation between the two of us. And you hear me off camera at times, just having that. Yeah, for sure. Was your goal to, were you trying to make a documentary? Was that the goal? And you're just like, oh, let me start slow and just hang out and film a little bit. Or how did you? My goal was to trick Linda into letting me make a documentary. Okay, great. That's what I was. No, I don't think I had those aspirations out of the gate, but once you spend a little bit of time with Linda and you see the process. Yeah. Hold on. Okay. Don comes to me. So we're filming just, I think it's like kind of just whatever I'm at, you know, with the equalizer, my organization, and we're out South by Southwest. And I do this whole organization for like two days and it's just all girls and it was really great. So he filmed that. And then there's, you know, I'm in the studio with, you know, an artist and he's filming that. So nothing really massive is going on. But imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just clump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York, maybe it's Maybelline. You know, so that was the earlier stuff and then I started having stuff going on. But he was like, Hey, you know that stuff I've been filming? Well, I did 30 minute edit, you know, and I'd really like for you to see it. And I refuse to see it. And he's like, I think there's a documentary here and I have some people that want to back it. And I was shocked and I was just like, I don't want to hear about it. You know. After my initial shock, I was able to go, okay, what? But at first, I was like, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to make a documentary. - I don't know why you were so resistant. - Because I didn't want to do it. I thought, I didn't know him enough to know that, I don't want to fluff peace. I'm not looking to glamorize my very trivial, complex, emotional, fucked up state of mind. So I wasn't looking for anything like that. Like, oh, Linda Perry, you know, blah, you know, but then as we went along, I started really liking Dawn and we were funny because I would, we butt heads, you know, I was butting his head. But did you just validate that? I am, you know, I was like, I was like, because I was just like, you know, it was emotional and then shit started happening and so it was very, very complex for me to wrap myself around it. And then I think I tried to get involved and try to steer it a different way and then that wasn't working. And I literally had to just let go. And then I had to let go because there's a lot of trauma going on and then I was done. I was like, okay, you go do the movie you want. Call me when it's done. And he's like, you understand the movie's about you and I'm like, I get it, but I don't want anything to do with it. And then I mean, he literally, they had, it was him and, you know, Sean and, and, you know, Sallinger over at the Mercury, literally had to drag me in to go watch this thing. They were like, are you gonna show up? We really need you to see this. We need your sign off on this. And I'm like going, look. How did you guys, what was the moment, especially for you when you were like, I don't know if I want to do this? What was the exact, can you remember the exact moment of like, I trust you enough to try to just go? - Well, I think I just did, you know, I mean, I think it was because I was having conflict with Dawn a couple times on things. I kind of knew, I felt like he was like a brother, you know, I already. So it's, I was natural, like I felt okay, you know, going after him, you know, like, sorry. But, you know, but, you know, I didn't understand too. And, and, you know, I'm a creative person in trying to understand a world that I don't know because if I would have had any control over the documentary, it would not be out. - Right. - I would have ripped out every vulnerable raw scene in it. And he would have had, you know, maybe me and Kate Hudson for like, it would have been a short story about Kate Hudson for five minutes. You know, that was it. - Yeah. - But so, to me, I just had to, and I'm just like that. I'm a very instinctual person. I have a lot of, you know, I ride on my feelings all the time. I mean, that's the only thing I got is to go on my gut feelings and I felt I could trust Dawn immediately. And also, he gave me this incredible opportunity to sit and score a film, which I've never done before, which was so fun. And then, after that, I scored another documentary, then I scored a film and then another film. So, because of him giving me that, you know, that permission, you know, it opened up this whole world, like, oh, I can do this. So, thank you, Universe, for bringing him to me. So, the universe brought him, so I asked, and he showed up. - You know, we're already seeing the podcast as new, but we're seeing it's a lot of people who are actually really trying to learn how to collaborate. And when you said, like, you already had some, I can't even say the conflict or friction with him in the scoring part of that. How do you, I love that, like, that means you go, oh, we had conflict when we got past it. - Yeah. - That makes me want to trust him enough to make a documentary. - No, the conflict was happening while he was in my studio hanging out and filming. I was like, there was like, just things, you know, and then I did something really, I think I got, I think where it turned around for me was during citizen pen. So, I wrote a song for the end title. And, and Don was like, well, you know, who are we gonna get? And I'm like, I'm going after Bruce Springsteen. And he was like, yeah, you fuck yeah. And, you know, so I'm like, you know, I'm balls out, I'm going. And then I found out, no, Bruce is not gonna be available. So, I'm like, I'm going after Bono then, you know. So, I call Bono's manager and he just laughed at me. He's like, wow, you have a lot of balls. You just think that you could just call me and Bono's just going to show up and sing. He's like, first of all, I just have to applaud that. And, but he's like, you know what, send me the song. - Yeah. - You know, I'm now I'm just curious. And so I send him the song. And then I think it was two days later, like at 12 or one o'clock in the morning, I get an email and it's a fucking voice memo. A Bono singing this fucking song with his kids drunk, you know, like in his living room. And it was like, oh my fucking god. I couldn't believe it. I drove to my best friend's house that night. And I'm like, honking. Buddy, oh my god, look at, check this out. And I'm like, playing this, it's obviously Bono, you know. And anyways, and so their whole thing was like, okay, Bono's going to come and sing. And, but he needs everything really spars. Now, I'm not, I'm not understanding. Like when an artist says I need nobody there, like I'm in that producer, songwriter, that, like I have to protect the artist. - Yeah, of course. - I wasn't thinking so I wasn't allowing Don to come. And of course he wants to come. But it's like fucking Bono's going to sing the song for his movie. - It has been a 10-year project. - You know, and I'm just like trying to really over protect the situation and I fucked up there. I fucked up. I should have been protecting him. - Right. - And I didn't do that. - Yeah. - I was protecting the artist and what I was being told. And then finally I was just like, yes, of course, come. You know? - Cool. - And I was a little afraid, like if Don and Sean, because of Sean there too. - Yeah. - I was afraid if they were going to go there. Because also I didn't want to think Bono look, like I was seizing this opportunity to get all these people in there and get, you know, Photoshop's, you know? And I'm like going, okay, whatever. And then he walks in, he doesn't care at all. And he's like, totally scared of me. He's like, I've heard about you. You're going to pull feelings out of me and, you know, all this stuff. And I'm like going, okay, I got this. So you know, because it's Bono. Bono's coming to my studio to work with me. And I'm a bit intimidated, you know? But not because I don't easily intimidate. But it was like, you know, he's like the golden god, you know? And anyway, so I think after I understood my fault in that, I think I even called you and said, I see where I fucked up. - Yeah. - And I'm so sorry, of course you're going to be angry at me because it's your film. So that was our first like really thing. And then after we got through that, it was like, everything else was just easy. Yeah, I mean, that what I love so much about that, like people watching, hoping to learn to be better collaborators is that like understanding that getting through that conflict actually makes you so much better collaborators. Instead of throwing your hands up and be like, all right, well, you're upset, I'm upset, fuck you. - Yeah. - That doesn't help a collaboration. - No. - That ends the collaboration. - Well, I think also with collaboration, I'm just going to switch to songwriting for a second. The most important part is. - Imagine setting your makeup. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Just plum, dewey hydrated skin. That still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. - Maybe it's Mavily. - All ego has to be left outside. - Yeah. - I walk in, you know, with ego and controlling the situation. Like, I never know one lyric. I don't know one chord. I don't know one thing we're going to do. When that artist walks in, they have to trust me. So I earn their trust by having like an hour conversation with them and we just sit and we talk. And I'm just like kind of assessing it out, finding what's real, finding what's bullshit. And then I lock into, then I start, I guide questions and start bringing them to, okay, I see where the real point is. And I'll start bringing them to that. Then the tears will come. Then I grab the guitar and I'm like, it's time. And they're like, time for what? I'm like, we're going to write a song. They're like, do you have something? I'm like, no. You have it. I'm just going to pull it from you right now. And then I'll just start playing chords. And they're like, well, what are we doing? I'm like, you're going to add lib, you know? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you're going to open up your mouth and you're just going to talk to me just like we have been for an hour. But now we're going to do it with a melody and me playing guitar. And so I'll start it off. And right there, I have to know, I can start it off, but then after I start it off, I have to back off because I'll go all night. I'll come up with five songs like that. But I have to back off and then I have to give them the power. Yeah. And that to me is where great collaboration happens. It's like, because I don't know the state of mind of the artists. Are they coming in intimidated? Are they coming in with a purpose? Are they, what are they here for? And I have to figure that out. And then I have to show them that I'm equally as vulnerable. And then I give them the power. And then once they take that power, that's where the collaboration really starts. Because now we're talking on an equal level. I'm no longer Linda Perry, the songwriter. And there are no longer so and so big famous artists. Right. We become one. Yeah. You know, hello, my little un famous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, low miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, what are the old school youtubers say? Like, subscribe and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the un famous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. It's for both of you, because it's actually so interesting, especially to hear you talk about that specifically. So much of what you guys are creating is about someone else's personal life, right, which is what I do as well every day. And I'm writing about someone else's personal life. How do you find the balance of sharing, encouraging someone sharing deeply personal things about themselves versus making sure that they feel protected? Because I always find that too. Like, I'll get someone to say, like, put the craziest thing they said and put it in the song. But then I always go, however, my face isn't on the single cover. So if that's too crazy for you, let's talk about it. But how do you guys find that balance of getting really, real, but also making sure everyone feels protected? I think the job of a documentarian or the way that I've always approached it is I'm there to observe and let people go where they want to go. Yeah. And whatever way sometimes you need a big crew to accomplish a certain scene, but my preference is always to do things pretty small. Yeah. It's typically myself and sometimes just me or very trusted folks that I've been working with for a number of years that I know are cool and won't disrupt things or be loud about, you know, if a microphone dies or something, don't interrupt a moment. Yeah. Let's we'll figure it out. So I feel like that's really the biggest part of my job is to just I assume it's very much like you or like what you guys, you try to create an environment where folks are just able to feel that they can say whatever. Yeah. And that it's down the line with me. It's generally like a year down the road. But you start looking at footage and piecing it together. And I really always try to I show, and this is why we ask Linda to come watch it. As before anything's locked, I want to show it to them because you've been gracious enough to share your time and yourself with me. But this is a story about you. Are you comfortable with it? If you're not, let's talk about what we can change here. Not giving away editorial control, it does have to be coming from me and in that. But it is a discussion. Have you in moments where, because I'm sure you have stories as a writer, producers, well, with moments where an artist or the subject, whatever you want to call them, is too scared to say something or too scared to keep somebody in the edit. But I mean, I know like this, but this, that's the lyric that fucking makes the song go. That's the engine to the whole song. Even if it's in the second verse, it doesn't seem like it's that important. I know it is. How do you as a filmmaker, how do you convince the subject to let that thing stay in the movie? When screening this film with Linda, there was, there is a scene in the movie that I was definitely worried about. And you made it with a moment that I'm referring to. Linda's in closet. Yep. And it is. I was going to ask about that. So thank you for making my job easy. You just talk about it. It is a scene that a lot of people want to know about because there are, there's a lot of questions to it. And we hadn't talked about it since you sent it to me. And then we're watching the film. And it's just Linda and her best friend, Aubyn and my producing partner Dan Seleger and myself in this big room. And I think Dan and I might have had a little scotch in the back of the room, waiting for this knowing what was coming. And as it got closer, you know, you start to get scared because you don't, you just don't know. And then we heard Linda from the front row go, oh my god, you kept that. Or you used that. And then we talked about it afterwards. But it wasn't, like, you have to take that out immediately, I think. Yeah. Linda and Sean and other people I've worked with generally do understand the power of an image like that and what it says. What was your thought process of obviously you exclaimed from the front row, oh my god, you kept that. What made you want it to stay? Well, when imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupy setting missed from Maybelline New York. Gel to Miss technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. Just plump, do we hydrate its skin? Try new groupy setting missed from Maybelline New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. You know, I, I got, you know, the cancer, I had the surgery, things I was having to melt down, you know, like I don't even know who I am anymore with all this bullshit. So confusing. He's capturing all that. And, um, and that particular and he said, hey, if you're ever alone, just laid the camera or your phone down, just push record. In case you feel like something's coming, rather just have, rather just get rid of all the bullshit, you know, that doesn't need to be there, but just so you're ready. And I'm like, all right, I go in my closet, I'm like, okay, there's the camera, I'm just going to put the phone down, I start moving about, I'm going to get dressed, you know, because god forbid anybody, I don't, I'm not, never without my hat, and I'm not done up in some way, you know, I'm not going to do that. Anyways, so I'm up on, I see my, on my chair, the white at iPad is there, I flip it over and I'm like, oh, I'm just, you know, as I'm, you can around, I'm just going to mean to play some music. And I just push play and one, I never even thought about two, Rhodes is the only one that uses that iPad, it's my 11 year old child, um, at the time was eight or seven. What the hell, how do they know about SuperTramp? First of all, because they were the ones that were listening, Rhodes was listening to SuperTramp, yeah, which was, I haven't even addressed that, you know, so that's pretty awesome. So I push, and the long way home comes on, and I don't know what happened. I honestly have no idea what happened. Wow, something happened. I felt emotional and I came out of it. I stopped the recording. I instantly sent it to him. I said, I do not know what this is. Do what you want with it. But I'm erasing it right now off of my phone. That was it. Are you okay? Whatever didn't answer. I don't know, he called me or texted me, didn't answer. So, cut two, mind you, I have no idea what just happened and I forgot about it because I was, it was like one of those moments where you just, you know, you've had it, everyone in this room has had that moment. Yeah. But we don't film it and we don't put it on a fucking big screen, right? So I'm with my best friend and I'm watching the movie and I'm like, I swear, I'm like this half the time. I'm scooting down. It's like I'm watching, you know, Freddy Krueger come out of the, you know, it's like, you know, James on massacre coming after me. And I'm just so frightened by everything I'm seeing because I don't like to see myself. I don't like to hear myself at all. And I'm like, going, and then that scene comes on. I mean, it couldn't be any more bigger than what I was watching. And I was like, going, oh, my, and that was. I said, oh, my god, I cannot believe because that's the first time I'm seeing it. I didn't know what was going on. I don't know what I filmed. I don't know what happened. And that's the first time and I'm watching it. And I was so overwhelmed by it that I had a couple notes on something else. Just it was just talking heads. I said, yeah, we don't need those people. Yeah. And then I gave him a hug. I said, you made a really beautiful film. He's like, is that it? I'm like, yeah, I was so, there were so many things I would have changed. But what hit me was he knows something I don't. And obviously this needs to be seen because it made me so uncomfortable that that to me is a powerful place to be. Yeah. You know, so I just let it go. And I would say innately, like, you do know that same thing that he knows about you, but it's that really raw, uncomfortable thing that you have to face about yourself. That's why it was such an uncomfortable thing to watch because it was so raw and relatable. Like watching that it was like, Like, I don't know if that's something I'm not in front of the camera that's definitely in front of this. You know, like having those moments and then hearing you talk about like, "Oh, you stand up the time." Almost kind of because that moment was such a hard moment for you, it was almost like romanticizing the past in a way that it's like, "No, it's everybody going through a roller coaster journey. It's just so hard to bleed yourself out of the darkness you're having in that moment." But then once you release it, it can reflect on it and you're so lucky that you can watch it back. You can be like, "Fuck, there are so many things about my life that is so good and this is something that I just put out there for people to take a step back and realize that." Yeah. That's like these moments you can be pulled out of and like you can move forward from those emotions and see how beautiful that vulnerability can be. Well, I think that was put really well put, thank you and it is the rawness that is relatable and that's why I kept it and that's why I didn't pick on the film like that. How does it feel, right? You're normally in the driver's seat of getting people to show their vulnerability for getting to people to emotionally expose yourself. How did it feel to be in the passenger seat of that? Well, I'm always up for any kind of improvement. I'm always searching for how can I evolve and become a better person. Were you always? I've always been like that. I feel like I was stuck a little bit in my early 20s. I was very rebellious and it was very hard to reach me because something happened and I just kind of, you know, all the stuff, you know, because the movie touches a little bit on stuff, but it's like it's deeper than that, you know, like that would have been, I mean, that's a whole other film. But it's a lot, there's a lot, a lot of damage, a lot of trauma and I think that why I like the film the way it is is because it touches on things. I just said, the film is not about anything, but it's about everything, you know, it's like got this appeal, like it's a little bit about that and like we talk a little bit about that and then we move on. It's like the cancer, okay, I had cancer and then we're on to, you know, somewhere else. And it's like, you know, it was like crazy, it was just like, but I love to that because it's like we didn't don't overstate things that were obvious, you know, like how some people can just overdo, like stick on a subject and keep bringing it home. So it's like, no, we can move on, we got it. So I think that watching the film, I've only watched it one time, yeah, I can't bear it again. So I watched it one time, I scored it, but I didn't watch it while I was scoring it, I turned up. Which she did not tell me until after that, yeah, I scored the film and I just had audio on, shut, yes, and it very quietly and I just played in the areas, like he gave me areas that he wanted, you know, the music, I couldn't, I was like, and I didn't tell him, but I just, I just put the audio on very lightly, you know, and then I'm hearing where he wants something. What is it where you can, you can hear them yourself, but you don't want to see, is it? What is it about seeing? I just, I didn't, I just couldn't, it was too much, it was too much, it's too much, it's just way too much. And I mean, I can't, I can't even watch this fucking podcast, I mean, I've done all these interviews and I have not, and I asked people, was it okay? They're like, it's amazing, I'm like, oh, it's like, you know, these are very good. You know, my phone pages flooded, thank you, and I had a friend send me one of your interviews, literally 10 minutes before you got here, I was like, oh, really funny. He has no clue that I'm, we were doing this today, it's like, oh, she's going to be here in 10 minutes. Oh yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so I, at that moment, when Don is pointing all this back at me and I'm opening up, again, because he gave me that feeling of safety. And then on top of it, I'm kind of reckless emotionally anyways, like I could have been with a couple of strangers and they could have been doing crack and I would have been emotionally available. Like, I'm like, you know, I think I'm looking to be emotionally available, but it's like, it just kind of comes out, it just, I don't mean to be honest, it just is, and I was actually even thinking about it because somebody last night was like, "Tes, you're honesty, ever gotten you, you know, like, mate, what was it, like something about, have you ever regretted being so honest?" And then, or vulnerable, and I start thinking about it on the way here, that question popped up in my head and I was like, "Oh yeah, there's been times where I've gotten, like, people just don't want that kind of honesty." Yeah. So, I've literally have people like, sometimes don't even want to reach back out to me to tell me about what's going on because they know I'm going to be super honest about, you know, what, where they're at in their life and they know they're not doing the right thing. Yeah. They know it and they purposely stay away from it. I'm not calling you. I'm not calling me because they know I'm going to call them out on it. Yeah. I mean, there are so many artists like that. I'm that friend, too. I'm only with my friends, not with, like, work people, but with my friends. Oh, I do it with everybody. And so, it's like, I do it with everybody. Again, you made a really beautiful film. I wish it wasn't about me, but it is, you know, because I really think I would enjoy it. Right. You know, watching someone else crumble like that, and that whole end scene with, you know, discovering this song and the band and how powerful that is. It's like, it's probably one of my favorite things I've ever seen. Yeah. And I feel bad about saying that because it's about me, you know, but it's so powerful and so beautiful. No, it's very powerful. Linda, we hear all the time. When we write a song with someone about something in their life, it helps them heal past it. Do you feel like making a documentary that talks about your relationship with your mom was healing at all? Well, again, that was just another thing that happened. You know what I mean? It was, oh, and this hat, I mean, I'm thinking about him, and I'm thinking, he was probably sitting there. I fucking hit a jackpot here. Who knew all this shit was going to come out? Well, the way that you let me know things was, I think when we sat down, it was a day, I believe we'd done the, we'd shot something in the morning, but then there was nothing in the afternoon. And we just sit and we're talking, I remember I was asking you about Neil Young, and a lot of like kind of old questions, and then you're like, yeah, I have cancer. It was no build up, I'm like, come back to that. What? Neil Young's fabulous, also cancer. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm dealing with this thing, and then we'd been in the studio so much together, and you hadn't told me. And then it was just like, I didn't tell, I didn't tell any, but I didn't tell my mom. I didn't tell my family. I mean, the only people that knew at the time was my best friend and Sarah. That was it. There's only people that knew. So when my mother got sick, I disappeared, and there was so much going on with that. It wasn't just my mom was sick. I had a family member that literally went crazy, calling the police on me. It was crazy. I had to kidnap my own mother out of her home, and it was crazy. It was not. So I kind of was telling him a little bit about it. I'm like, listen, if I wasn't in such emotional crisis, and the business Linda came out, which is very rare, you know, I'm like, so the most terrible, horrible business person. But I did have one moment of like, God, this is, this is a film right here. I don't. You should get over here. Like I should have had him over there because it was crazy. It was nuts, you know, the whole family, but that was just another movie. And it was too personal, so I'd tell him a little bit. I actually have a lot more footage that I actually filmed for you that I didn't send, because I was like, you know what, no, I'm not going to do that, you know, it's like a very personal thing. And it's about my mom. If it were me dying and all this was, I was like, come on, bring everybody in. I would have been totally like a whole concert about it, you know, you know, and on me on my deathbed and you know, playing guitar or whatever, you know, anyway, so, for that, that was just a piece of it that came out in a really great way, really everything. I have to say, everything about the film was organic, that again, we had no intention to make a documentary. No intention for any of this to happen when I told, and there was a lot of trust because I told Don, hey, I'd like to, I need to jam after my mom died, I said, I need to fucking jam. I need to get out of my studio. I need to go into rehearsal space, put a band together and just fucking jam. And he's like, well, what are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know. And so we talk the night before I say, hey, we good for tomorrow at mates. He's like, yeah, what are you going to do? But I have a band coming and I hired Strings too and background vocalist, you know, and he's like, and you don't know what you're going to do. I'm like, no, but for some reason, I feel like I'm supposed to have them there. And so we get off the phone two o'clock in the morning, I write this song, sobbing. I shall. up at nine or whatever. I tell the band to be there at 10, I tell the strings to be there at 11, the times are wrong, I'm sure, but I'm just, this is my story. But it was an hour in between, right? So 10, 11, 12. So, but it did happen like that. So, I walk in, I'm like, done. I wrote a song, and I'm still trying to figure out lyrics and stuff. Band walks in, I teach them the song, strings, as soon as they knew, strings walk in, I immediately switch over, put on string arrangements in my head, teach it to them right away. I have no idea. No fucking idea. Background singers walk in, after they learn their part, try to give them idea, but mind you, I don't have set lyrics yet. So, they're, you know, blessed their heart. They're just trying to follow me and I'm just making, because now I'm emotional. We start filming it, or it's being filmed the whole time. And then all of a sudden, this incredibly beautiful song just, poofs, shows up, and then I get the emotional, paths get some emotional, you know, it's the bass player. And it's just, and then the way they edit it together, it was just so incredible. And so, yeah, I learned so much, because right after that, I wrote a whole album. The whole movie was about me not knowing how to write this song for myself. And that whole moment, watching it, I just poof, a whole crazy cinematic, emotional record that has a very clear through line just came out of me. Yeah. From start to finish. Yeah, unbelievable. Are there things for both of you that you feel like now, whether it's wisdom or success, or however you want to look at it, are there things now that you say no to that you wouldn't have said no to in the past? No, I think, well, for me, it's, it's, you know, it's a challenging time in documentary film. It just is. And I think all independent film. So, I think there has to be a little bit more caution on what stories that you want to put a couple years of your life into. Right. But probably my biggest takeaway is when you have somebody that welcomes you in like, like Linda has, it, you know, I'm so happy that people are really going to have a chance to see this film, because I do think it's, it's universal, but told in a very specific, personal manner. Yeah. Linda said, everybody's had these experiences. And everybody has experienced loss or health care scares, health scares. But rarely is it seen in a film like this, with somebody willing to share it so vulnerably. So, I think, yeah, for me, it is just figuring out what projects next I would approach. And can we have this same kind of intimacy in them? Because this is rare. And it's super rare to have a story where the premise is, we'll Linda find her voice again. And now we're sitting here all these years later with a finished movie that I'm very proud of. And a whole album of material that the film in the experience inspired in some way. I mean, that's a once in a lifetime thing. Yeah, completely. How about for you, Linda? Are there things that, that are where you always good at saying no to things? Oh, yeah, I said no so much. And, you know, I think that I hit a place where I said, you know, I'm going to try yes. I'm going to see what yes feels like. Because I'm always, I'm a dick, you know, like I'm about, you know, with my songs, like I don't let anybody use it. Like everybody's like, you know, American idol for God's sakes, leave me alone. You know, it's like, you don't let me, I don't use your songs. Never. Oh, see, I was broke for so long and I'm such a whore that I'm like, yes, everything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're, I, we're the same, but we're very different. Yeah. You know, like you're so good at writing what people want to hear. Like you're really good and you're, you craft these such hooky melodies. Like you, you have that, that thing. You can just write a pop song. Yeah. You just, you just do. And then, and if you can't, you put a team together with you to make it happen. Yeah. I'm solo. Right. And I'm not looking to write hits. Right. Those just kind of happen. I don't, I didn't mean to write any of the songs that I've written. Yeah. They just kind of happened. And sometimes some hit, sometimes they don't. I don't really care about that. But that, so my songs for me are more precious. Right. You know, and I'm leaving those songs to my, my, my child. And I want to have a, I just want to know that everything I did, it's, it's clear. It's respectful to me that I'm proud of everything I've done. I've said no to so many artists that have wanted to work with me, a lot of the people that you work with. And I say no because I don't, I don't believe them. Right. I don't believe them. Yeah. And you know, and they'll come in and with this, like, I want this, I want that. And I look at them like, I know you're really popular. I know that. And I think you're actually kind of cool, but I don't have a connection to you. Yeah. So, and they look at me like, what? You know, like, I'm coming to you and I'll recommend somebody else. You know, I think I've actually recommended you. You know, and thank you. I appreciate it. And they're blown away by that. And then actually after their initial shock, they're like, you know what? That's actually really cool. You could have just taken my money. Yeah. And you wrote me a shit song, but I actually kind of dig it. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then finally one day, I was like, you know, I'm gonna see what? Yeah. Still not saying yes to American Idol, but I do say yes to like, you know, okay, I'm gonna let what's up go out for a little bit. Yeah. I'm gonna go let it breathe. And beautiful. Go. Bye. Bye. See you later. Go. And let them have their day in the sun. And, and then but come back to me because I'm not gonna let you guys that free, you know, and so I'm very specific. You know, let me just tell you, I will turn down a blockbuster with tons of money for the cool indie that's using it in a very specific more emotional way. I'll choose. And then my at the time, I don't, I'm not, I don't have a publishing company now. But when I did, they would be so upset with me. It's like, wait a minute, am I getting this right? But you turned down the big blockbuster that was gonna make you money, but you said yes to the weird indie Australian film. And, you know, for like a thousand dollars, I'm like, yeah, yeah, because that's that I believe in. I don't believe in that. Wow. That is, I think I could talk to you about just that all day. One, you know, I'd never had a song that I wrote alone good enough for anyone to want to put it in a movie or American Idol. So for me, there's always two or three other writers on my songs that it's like, well, let's just all say yes and let it go. And two, you're 100% right of none of my songs very few are personal to me because I never liked pop music. I still don't. So to me, it was always just a job. Once I left my band and started writing songs for other people, I don't, none of them are about me. None of them resonate with me. None is a dramatic term. Most of them don't. But for you, these are all, for the most part, a hundred percent you. I want to go back to you for a second. So knew that was coming. That's where we're the same. Like I come from, you know, this band that I don't even know what we were. There were so many different genres going on in that one album, but I didn't plan on, you know, becoming a producer and songwriter, right? That just kind of happened. And I think why we're good at it is because we're coming from a different place. You know, we're coming from this. That's why we're good. Right. We're not coming from the pop world, but bringing in melody and different structure. But with you, it's like, I don't believe for one moment that you can't write a hit song by yourself or something that you think is worthy enough. I think you just got comfortable working with a team. And it somehow made it maybe easier for you to process that. Like, maybe I need this. Maybe it's more fun because you're obviously, you know, social too. And you got such a great personality. And who wouldn't want to be hanging out in the studio with you? I never did that. I never knew to work with other people because I didn't understand that world. I was just like, I'm just used to working on my own. And then when artists come in, they're vague, you know, they're like on the couch and at the time when I was really popping with 2000 to, you know, in the 2000 to 2015 or whatever. And, you know, if they weren't on their sidekicks, they were on their iPhones. And, you know, and it's like, could care less, showing up like at God knows what time you're supposed to be that 10 a.m. Showing up at 10 p.m. You know, it's like, I'm sorry. Did you get the a.m. p.m. wrong, you know? So I was kind of having and people didn't, they wanted me to just do it on my own because I was also producing engineering. You know, I was doing everything writing and playing. So I think I just got used to, yeah, being by myself, where I would have, I think, had way more hits if I just called you up. and said, "Hey, can I join your writing policy?" Because I think that would have been a different experience. And so I did finally say yes to that. So I started working with this girl that I found and so not my style at all, but I love her. 'Cause she's just, she couldn't be anymore like, you know, college, you know, a frat girl. But she's got such a great thing about her. Like she's so green and so innocent. It's like ridiculously sweet. And I'm like, "Okay." And she was like, "I need to work with you." And so persistent. So I said, "Okay, this is how I'm gonna do it." I called Nat Dunn. I called Faras. I called this girl Lisa Fatale that's in this band, Terror Jr. And I'm like, "You guys are gonna be my songwine team. Here's the girl. This is the couple songs I've written for. They all loved it. I'm like, "Now we're gonna write." And I brought in this guy, "Grabbits." And as well to do some beats. And it was so much fun. And we wrote the greatest songs. I never would have wrote most of those songs on my own. Because they were dumb, you know? And it was like fun, dumb and fun. So how does it feel to change your process this late in your journey? It was great, because, you know, I'm just like, "Okay, Linda, it's okay to be dumb and fun." It's okay, everything doesn't have to be like this. Bleeding my fucking emotions of just, you know, my, you know, whatever, you know, like, just spewing out. Like it's like deep, Linda. Now there's a whole movie documenting you spewing your emotions. Exactly, yeah. So I loved it. You can put it to bed. I loved it. I had so much fun doing it. And then it honestly, on top of it, and this for the collaborator part, kids that would come in and they didn't want to write with songwriters, you know? They were just like, "No, I don't want to do that." 'Cause, and I would tell them, "Listen, write the fucking song." Yeah. Just write it. You don't know what it's going to be. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's a country song for somebody else. Stop editing. Stop editing yourself because we'd get in and it turn in like to like a country song. And they're like, "Well, I'm not into country. I'm like, you know what? But this country's into us right now." So that's fucking write it. Yeah. And it could be for anybody. So I always tell the kids, stop editing. Just let it happen. Just let it happen. And you never know. Just because it's showing up country doesn't mean it can't turn into a rock and roll song or a pop song. Just let the process happen. And I think that's the most awesome thing about collaborating is when you don't go in, like someone says to me, do you ever get writer's block? And I'm like, no, that's a thinker's problem. I don't think about writing. I just write. If it's there to write, it'll show up. But if you're having problems, that means you're overthinking. And you're trying to write a song. So number one thing to all you little collaborators and writers, don't fucking think. And don't edit. Just let the song come out, the way it's going to come out. And then deal with it later. Stay in the moment because that's important. Do you have that as a filmmaker? Are there moments when you get stuck and how do you get around it? Or are you similar to Linda and me? Where it's just like, if it's flowing, it's flowing. Or yeah, just listening to that. That's exactly what I try to tell myself and try, and now that I've been doing this for a while, when younger filmmakers come to me, and it's often they want to wait for all the money to show up, or they need to have a large crew. They need to have whatever it might be. And I always say, just start filming it. If there's a story that you're passionate about telling, grab a camera hack. You can do so much with a phone now. Grab it, if you can find a couple of people that are into it as much as you and a small crew. But momentum gives more momentum. Yeah, and you just have to start filming it. What do you guys hope, right? Because now this movie is also this album, it's all one thing. Like, for both of you, what if you could pick one thing that you really hope people take away from it? What would it be? For me, it would be, it's OK to be vulnerable. It's actually very powerful to be in that space. And the amount of vulnerability that you share in this, it's very, very powerful. Thank you. It's like deep courage. Thank you, thank you. But that, I would say, for me, I hope people understand that. It's just like, you know, we're so afraid. And especially right now, we live in such fear, you know. And it's just like, but, you know, it's so powerful to show people vulnerability because it breaks people down. Yeah. It takes their guards down. Yeah. You know, it makes people trust you and on top of it, we're just in a world right now where we just need honesty because I don't know what is going on. I don't know what is real right now. I do not. I am not even trying to make a statement. I really am confused. What is real? No, same, it's the amount of even people, friends of mine, posting completely opposite information. Friends, it's not like, oh, it's my distant uncle. Who's posting some crazy shit that I don't believe. It's friends posting things in 10 seconds of each other that the exact opposite information. So I think I didn't even think that's a really good point to make an album and a movie that is just raw. Deeply honest and raw in this time is powerful. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's okay and perhaps it's better to put things out into the world that showcase that instead of what I think we see so much of on any number of streaming platforms that every movie is the same and hits the same beats and hits everything. And that was never. I do think this film happened very organically, but it's something that I've always strived to do is have things that are. Yeah, it's going to always be called a music documentary. But within that, it's not about all of the career highs and lows for Linda. It's not a retrospective on that or. No, it's much more interesting. Trying to get four nonblonds back together. It's not those things. It's a personal story about an artist figuring, trying to figure it out. Yeah. And more than an artist, a human being trying to figure stuff out. And I feel like those stories are always necessary. Yeah. And you said that a few times now it's about everything and nothing, but at least for me, it was very much about. I like how she pops in. She's really smart and really awesome. It's like all of a sudden. Quiet. Adults talking now. It was about bad instincts, emotional intelligence, and getting out of your own way. And I really like that because, going back to what you were both just saying about, this is such a polarizing tie that we're living in. And people are either frozen or overly reactive. And from what I got it from you, it's like your natural tendency is to almost be self-destructive. Like you get out of your way at a time to make something that is art. And that, like, luckily, it speaks to a lot of people. So it does get to go public. And I think that that is something that is really helpful for people in this time, whether they're creative, and they need that guy to that blueprint. Or just people living in this world, where it's like, I don't know what the fuck is real, but tapping into your gut and saying to know what will help you move forward in whatever industry or person have that is is very helpful. Yeah. Do you feel like, for both of you, actually, when it comes to gut instincts and the art that you make, did you always, did you always trust your gut or some of you learned the older you got or-- Oh, my god. I don't have a mind. Like, oh, I listen to you, and I'm, like, going, God, you're so smart. Right. The talk is so intellectual. I'm so jealous. I don't have that. I have very small basic words. And everything, I dropped out in eighth grade. And I even fell before, until then, everything was like, I was great in PE. And social friends. I was told them yesterday, like, principals used to call me in the office. They're like, Ms. Perry, where are you here? Because I was failing everything. I'm like, to make friends, they're like, the school is not to make friends. It's to educate, and you're wasting our teacher's time by not being present. And I'm like, OK, well, what you want me to do? And they're like, leave. But the thing is I can't-- my brain-- I don't-- I'm not dyslexic. But my brain turns everything around. When I read, I can only get through one paragraph. And then I forget everything I read. If you try to teach me something, I can't-- I can't-- I get overwhelmed. If I see a bunch of numbers on, like, my assistant, I have to call her. And literally, I have, like, weird OCD in this area. She has to explain to me all the dates and the times very slowly. Because if I see it on a paper, I get really overwhelmed. I don't understand what I'm looking at. So I'm very insecure in that space. But I'm extremely street smart. And I have great common sense. And the one thing that has saved me is my gut instinct. I would never trust my mind about anything. But that feeling inside me, it is active. It always has been. It's witchy. My grandmother was a very popular palm reader. So all the people in the. neighborhood would go to my grandmother and she never took any money and she's they would come to her and say my daughter's sick and she would look at the palm and she would tell them this is what you need to do. Yeah. If they heal, if they get healed, bring me a blanket or a loaf of bread. Never money. And so she was very powerful and I saw pictures of her and she looks very intense. My mom had it. My mom dreamt she could was a she I don't know what's called but her dreams would come true. She would see things in her dreams and my her sister was more on the evil side. Like I met her one time and I didn't I didn't want I like I was so affected by her in such a negative way. Wow. I very black magic and she was very negative was very so anyways when people say that about me I'm like keep it away from me right now but my gut instinct which is my you know is you know whatever it is has got me from here to there like where I am is because of my gut. In songs like What's Up and Beautiful and the other unbelievable iconic songs you have when the gut instinct is telling you to write them I get asked this question all the time and I have an answer ish but I'm going to ask you let's just use beautiful did when you wrote it did you know oh fuck this is special like did you did your gut raise its hand and go Linda something crazy has just been written no I mean it's not like that it's more like it's just meant to be yeah you know I don't look at it like oh I just wrote something special because I don't really think it's coming from me you know and because the way they show up it's so pre-recorded yeah you know yeah it's just the melodies there the lyrics show up it all comes at the same time I'm not sitting there for hours I just sit at the piano or guitar and I just start playing and then I just don't think about it and I just move my hands wherever it's asking me to go yeah and then the lyrics start showing up and I'm just ad libbing saying things I'll do that for like 15 20 minutes then I arrangement a whole song is there I'll listen and I record it on my phone or if I'm at studio in my my pro tools and then I just go back I listen to it and I write down all the the lyrics yeah fill in the holes and there it is and the only thing I know is if it was meant to be there because otherwise it wouldn't happen so easy yeah what's up was the same thing yeah it was just I think I wrote that one in 10 15 minutes yeah beautiful I I stepped away from it when the words I am beautiful showed up right that was not me yeah that was something else and when I am I am beautiful no met I was just like uh uh no I can't say that yeah I don't believe that yeah and so I I literally like taking the foot off the gas and hopped out of the car and went to the other side of the room and I was like okay what is that you know and I had to talk myself back over there because I had to tell my own lesson like Linda we don't edit we don't think we just write what's there yep fucking get it back over to the piano and I went over there and I'm just like okay I'm beautiful thank God the second first came in as a third person you know to all your friends you're delirious you know I was just like thank you I didn't I didn't mean for that it was like another person showed up therefore I was able to go you are beautiful and I was like you take it off myself for example me and then then it then the only intentional thing I did was go we because I was like okay well that makes sense you know like then I got to go to we after that so but yeah I mean I don't know I I think that the only time I got really super excited about a song and and I did call it out and I said this is a hit was when I wrote get the party started yeah that was a stupidest fucking song and I was just like having fun with that because I was learning about you know what a tried it keyboard was and you know rolling expansion cards and NPCs like because I was trying to figure out what is that terrible sound on the radio right now and everybody said it's these three things you know NPC tried it and these rolling expansion cards has all these you know sounds in it and so I got all three of those things and I'm on my NPC someone gave me like like you know the biggest file of you know like the the drives or like that I'm sticking it in there and all these sounds come up and I'm like okay do you know and then I grabbed my bongos and I'm just like you know playing bongos because I didn't find a bongo sound so I'm just like going and mind you this is all like three and a half minutes I didn't have pro tools I was on tape right you know so I'm just like for three and a half minutes playing bongo then I'm like you know then the base I'm like okay I'm just gonna go at the regular base boom boom and just play that for three and a half minutes and then you know then just every single sound I could find I'm just like going ding ding you know guitar wawa okay pick up my bullet microphone and then I'm just like going can I think of every cliche thing I can think of you know and it just came out I'm coming up so you but I'm so cocky and ridiculous and then I just start laughing and I'm like oh my god I wrote a dance hit you know yeah you did yeah really really really good so that's the only time you're like this is a hit this is a hit because you were just like it was so stupid it was like ridiculous yeah I was just like in awe of that I could be so dumb and write something done you remember moment in your career where you just like creatively we're just like let's just be fucking dumb and something magical happened it might be a little tougher in documentary film because it's such a long form maybe a little more challenging but I think something that maybe not dumb but just really was experimental is the animation in in Linda's film yeah it's really cool yeah that was sort of a pretty big swing for us because we in making it Linda as you know tells these amazing stories and we just were like how do we visualize this in the film what is what is the way you know do we go get stock footage or have reels of tape rolling or I don't know yeah and somebody on the team had the idea about animation and they knew this firm out of the UK called Studio Linguini that did this really they'd done a couple of music videos that had this stop motion yeah and so I started talking to him and I've never really done that in any other film has had had somebody like that and I learned a ton about just how animation works and how you have to stick with whatever idea come you know you can't really change it once you get into the middle of it so that to me is just a really big creative swing and a lot of trust in those team because we had like what are you guys doing it's a small team in the UK making these giant sets and then they'd send me like four seconds here four seconds there because it they have it takes forever to render yeah and okay I guess the pieces are gonna come together here yeah I mean it's a special moment in the the first time it like all of a sudden there's this animated hat coming which I wore my hat for Linda today and I was like oh that's amazing because those of us who are fans of you and now lucky to call you a friend the hat is iconic so when there's the fucking animated hat I was like oh we are on a we go into that hat we are on a journey but the last question we ask every episode is what advice would you give your younger self about the art of collaboration what is something that you wish you would have known sooner to make you a better collaborator I think you know my journey to make documentaries is is I don't know that there is one right way you know we all get into this and very few of the people I ever work with are like strict like I went to film school or I went to the documentary program at Stanford everybody's had a unique path but I think the starting the way that I did coming up through television news where we were cranking out stories every day yeah and the positive of that it's allowed me to work very quickly and I'm able to do to wear a lot of hats from you know producing a piece to filming it myself to editing it but there's isn't a lot of collaboration in that and I think the people that I meet that have gone through film school have that understand that there's a lot of different people doing a lot of different roles yeah and so maybe if I could go back and tell my younger self to open that world up faster and and not necessarily try to I think at my first couple of films I had a directing partner at the time and we would really do all of the jobs yeah and that's hard and it also doesn't you're not bringing in different viewpoints yeah you know and so I think the movies could have maybe been better yeah if if we had collaborated more so I would love to go back and try that what I love I've because we've been lucky enough to talk to people from all different mediums and genres and and I would say half of the people give that exact answer and that's my answer to it's just like realize you don't have to do everything and that like having help is really cool yeah and it's like I'd love to hear a director say that because I've heard now musicians and makeup artists and all these different people say the same thing it's It's, I love to see that common thread. Linda, do you have advice for younger Linda about collaboration? - I'm gonna have to snip that thread of yours (laughing) that common thread. - Please, I love it. - I do not, I would not change one thing. I love my journey. My journey continues to grow. So to me, if I would have known those collaborations earlier, it would have pivoted me in some way. And I would not have had this growth. It's always going like this. And it's because of the choices I've made. It's because of the way the universe wants to unfold. You know, it's navigating me. And I am definitely moving at, you know, by design. So I do not, I think it's awesome that at 60 years old, I put a songwriting team together for the very first time. And I love it. And I want to do more of that. Now, guess what? I'm inspired and it's going to take me another 10 years, you know, into a creative too. You know, so I'm always learning something new. And sometimes things might take a little longer. But I'm okay with that because one little alteration, could change all of it. And I'm digging where I'm going. I like who I've become. Like I can see that. Like I think I can honestly see from this film. And just from like all the attention I'm getting, like right now, like with the album and the film. Like I see that there is a, you know what I'm saying? That's like there is a power in me, you know? But I don't walk in that like, oh, I'm Linda Perry powerful. People say they're intimidated by me all the time. And I'm thinking really like, why? Like I'm so, will you mean a lot to people? What does that mean? What? That little smirk I just gave. The intimidation. Yeah. You don't think you can be intimidating? I think I'm verbal. I'm driving here. You rolled down your window and flipped me on. Because that was just fun. I'm still in the movie with you. Like for me, it's that we're always in a continual movie. No, I think, I think what I love that answer. And I'm glad that you didn't give your younger self advice that you didn't have the cheat codes because you meant so much to me, you know, was the huge foreign-owned blonde's fan as you know. And then knowing that you went from that and your major label artist, Queer Ended, and you became a huge songwriter is the reason I went, OK, I guess I'm going to try to be a songwriter. When that door opened for me, I was like, well, I didn't know you yet. But I'm like, well, into Paris, did it. She's also gay. I guess gay people can do that. The gay people can. You know, crazy. And who knew? Who knew? And it was-- if there is intimidation, I think it's because you have-- your legacy is a lot more powerful than you realize. You know, there is no way I would have ever gone. I guess I should write for other people now that my major label career has ended as an artist if you hadn't done it first. And I think that that carries a lot of weight. Yeah, I guess I appreciate that. I guess I don't think about it that way because I don't know. I like, like I said, I like hanging off the edge. I never-- I don't want to be, you know, content. And I think that's like, I have to constantly be multitasking because my brain on its own with just one little thing. It's like, it's too much. I don't know if you go through this as a creator and you as well. But I have a hard time sleeping because it's always going. If I had to get up every single fucking time that there's an idea, I would probably be crazy and in some kind of in-silent right now because I'm constantly like, you've got to wake up. There's an idea and I'm just like, oh no, please. And then I get up and I write down the-- or I just grab my guitar and-- because I'll hear stuff in my head all the time. And, you know, so it's like, I need a lot of stuff to occupy myself. So thank you for that. You know, I find that we as creators, it's all of it. So I wish I could tell my younger self to run, you know, run, now, go. But I don't know. It's like, I need it all that. I needed it part of my journey, you know? I'm a survivor, you know? And I see people that don't get that experience and I do not want to be them. I do not. I'd rather be tethered and leathered and worn and walk through this life knowing that I'm a really cool-looking leather pair of pants, you know? I mean, that's the best button to the end of an episode that I ever fucking heard. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Thank you. Watch "Unfamous" on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there. Imagine setting your makeup. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day comfy grip. Try new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie.