Linda Perry

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. How did Sears go from a one-man watch company to the biggest retailer in the world to bankruptcy? I'm Robert Smith. And I'm Jacob Goldstein. On our new show Business History, we tell the stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy. And we try and understand the lessons behind their success and failure. Our new episode is about the rise and fall of Sears, an incredible story that is really the story of America in the 20th century. Sears, rise, fall, America. Done. Listen wherever you get your podcasts for full video episodes to search. Business History Podcast on YouTube. Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes. For licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. Alright, enjoy the episode. You know, when you're on stage live, and there's that whole crowd out there, there's a whole other adrenaline we're vibing off. We're playing with Dolly fucking parton at the Grammys. You got to be in the moment, man. Linda Perry, if you don't immediately recognize the name, you'll know her songs. That last one was a huge hit in the 1990s for Linda's group "Forn on Blonds." She's since become one of the most sought after songwriters and one of the only women considered a go-to producer in the business. She's worked with Alicia Keys, Gwen Stefani, Celindion, Adel, and she reinvented the careers of Pink and Christina Aguilera. I met Linda North Hollywood at the first house she ever bought in LA. She's since transformed it into a beautiful recording studio. It's one of the most inviting creative spaces I've ever been in. When we met that day, I thought I'd be talking to someone obsessed with writing and producing hits. I couldn't have been more wrong. The level of songwriting is so low right now. Do you think it's lower than it's been in the past? It's to me the worst it's ever been. Because everything, when you have Sony ATV and all these companies signing songwriters that never actually wrote a whole entire song by themselves, but they wrote a third of a top line, there's just something not right about that. Turns out Linda Perry, who's responsible for so many hits over the past two decades, isn't interested in manufactured pop, but in creating deep, impactful songs that'll last. I'm Bruce Headlam, and this is Broken Record. [Music] So we're talking to you today for many, many reasons. One is that you were nominated for a producer of the year at the Grammys this year. What amazed me was you hadn't been nominated before. Were you surprised when you were nominated? Unfortunately, I expected it because of the conditions of the world. Because it's like, why didn't I get nominated before? Like, why this one? And the fact that the last time that was, and I could get this wrong so you can fact check me, but I believe the person who did get the last nomination that was a female was Lauren Christie, but she was part of a team that had two guys in it. So it was the Matrix, got the nomination. She happened to be in the Matrix. So it's not that she got it solely, but it was her and two other guys. But the fact that the Grammys had been, was it 63 years? Yeah, something like that. That a woman is never won is a bigger situation to me. And rarely been nominated. So people should be eligible and represented because they're good, not because of who they are. And that's just where I just want life to get to. It's like, right now we're in a place like, are we really choosing the best people for the job? Or are we choosing them because we need this race or gender or diversity? And that's where I'm waiting to get out of, because it's, I want just people to know that they're just chosen because they're great. I mean, that's, at issue, and that's the criticism a lot of forms of affirmative action and all kinds of things. Do you have to go through a period where necessarily something like the Academy says, yes, we have to honor a woman until you get to that position. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like, I'm waiting for this period to be over right now. Right. So we can just, we all got the information, the cats out of the bag, the bad guys have been pointed out at, now let's move forward to the real stuff. And I don't want to ever be honored for something that I don't deserve, only because I wear cool hats and I'm a chick. You know, I want to earn and know that I got chosen because I am great at what I do. And I do believe that. But I don't ever want it to be a question to everybody else. But you've been great at what you do for a fairly long time. Yeah. And there weren't times in the past you thought, what do I have to do here? Yeah, you know, I just don't operate that way. Like, I've sold millions of records. I have awards. Do you see anything in the studio that represents a plaque, an award? No. And you won't find it anywhere. You won't find it in the bathroom. You won't find it hidden in the closet. You won't find it in the garage. And who I am, I don't base my beliefs on how people see me or by a trophy or a plaque or being honored. I've never -- so it slips my mind. You know, my intention is always to just be the best that I possibly can. If my intention was ever -- I want to be -- I want to win that. Then I have a personal problem with myself. One of the people who walked through the door recently in this beautiful house turned studio was Dolly Parton. And you hadn't done country music before, I don't think. Did you have a love of country music or -- My ego wanted to take over Nashville about 12 years ago. Nashville was not having it and they threw me out the door. I have an obsession with Nashville. I've always felt that Nashville needed me. And I wanted to go in there and I wanted to find the Patsy Clines. I wanted to find the Willie Nelson's. I wanted to find Roy and Johnny and Loretta. Like, where's that? Why isn't that happening right now? Where's those dark, brooding country stars that told these incredible stories? It's like it all just sounds like let's think of something that sounds like beer bottles and Jack Daniels, you know, or whatever. And to me, it's like taking the jazz out of jazz. So country music to me, I was brought up on my father's love to country music. Country music in Frank Sinatra. So it's in my -- I mean, I can write -- I can write -- I can go be country if I wanted to. I make a whole country album. It's in me somehow. So that didn't work out. Okay, tell me how you said your ego tried to take over. Well, I went to go -- I went out there to go work with Faith Hill. And I wrote some really great songs for her. One was like a gospel and one was a great country song. She was over the moon, basically. As soon as I left the studio in the car, her manager called my manager at the time and said, you know, these songs will never see the light of day. They're not going to go on any Faith Hill record. Like it was crazy. And then I guess people were upset at her for bringing in an outsider. So it was just obviously not a good fit for me. And then so the fact that when this all full circle came back around, what, 10, 12 years later. And I'm getting an opportunity to go work with Dolly Parton. I was like, fuck, yes. You know, I told the music supervisor, Buck Damon, like, don't you dare go hire anybody else. I am the right person for this job. And then because there was somebody else he was going to look at, that was more qualified, you know. And because I had to do with like a little bit of scoring to like be able to take the songs that I write and weave them through the movie. So then I was, I had this whole brainstorm like, well, they want me to write one song with her and re record one old song. And I said, no, we got to do a whole album. I'm going to get together Dolly Parton. I'm writing an album with her. I'm doing a whole album. So I came up with the idea to do five re-dos, like, you know, and get duets, you know. So get to see it. I start picking out people that I thought would be a great fit. Not who is most popular, but what would be a great fit for Dolly's voice. And put that all together. And then when her and I finally met and she heard these songs, she was like, holy smoke. When I, when they told me you're going, I was going to work with Linda Parr. And I said, okay, dude, she's like, you know, I thought you were going to take the songs more pop. And I was going to be fine with that. I wouldn't have said anything, you know, because she would not have liked that at all. So you wrote the songs not with it, but I had time. No, I re-recorded the songs, the re-records. Like, here I am. Right. Dumb blonde. I got in here. The band. I put a band together that were not session players. And they were not from Nashville. Recorded it here. Had someone sing the parts down for her. And then I sent that. Those are just the re-records. And then when we met and she was so happy with what it sounded like, she's like, it sounds modern, but it doesn't. It sounds like me and it's like, oh my god, I'm just sitting in my chair and spinning and loving this and whatever. And she's like, so what do you want? We have, I guess we're going to write tomorrow. And everybody's like saying, Dolly hasn't written with anybody. You know, she doesn't write with people. And she hasn't, she hasn't written in a while. So good luck, you know, to that. And I'm like, okay, don't worry, I'm not worried at all. So when we met, we just instantly got along. And she's like, so, you know, we're going to write in session tomorrow. What are you expecting? And I'm like, well, we're going to sit down and just hang out. She's like, well, just so you know, I just don't write with people. And it's been a while since I've written a song. She's like, are you, do you have a number in mind? And I'm like, yeah, I feel like five or six. And she just like looked at me and started laughing and she was like, okay, well, let's just get one, you know, and it two days we wrote six songs. It was just like bang, bang, bang, bang, we just hit it off. It literally, she's like a close friend now. And we talked to each other like at least twice a week. And she's an incredible inspiration. And her talent is obviously beyond belief. And her storytelling is that of what I've been missing. So we wrote these great fucking songs. And it doesn't sound modern, but it doesn't sound old, but it sounds like dolly still. How did you start to write with her? You're in a room with, were you in this room with her? No, I was in Nashville. You were in Nashville. So you're sitting down with her. I mean, in her place, she has a place where she calls it the villa. She had her long nails, so she didn't want to play guitar. She just picked up the guitar and I start coming up with ideas, just like that. You didn't, did you talk much first? Yeah, we talked. And then we just, it was time for to create. You know, when there's time to create, there's no talking. You just go into create. Really, you just flip a switch. Just flip a switch. And it was funny because the Bob that was in there, he was like, what are you guys doing? It's like we're just writing songs. And he's like, that's another good one. And then we did it again. So the first day was three songs. The second day was three songs. Then she took it and wrote lyrics on the second night to all of the songs. And then by the third day, she came and we recorded them down with the lyrics. And then I came here with those songs and recorded them. And then she showed up and then we did the vocals. So she then wrote the lyrics in a day to all those songs? Yeah. And she also came and sang all of those songs in one day. Was she surprised how fast you were doing it? She was surprised, yeah. Because she's written a lot of songs. She's written like 5,000 songs. Yeah, she was surprised how easy it was with the two of us. But then she calls me her creative soulmate. She and I are very, very similar. We have a lot of, we're very the same when it comes to work. We're very hardcore about our work ethics and we're workers. And so it was like easy. Writing songs should be easy. You shouldn't have to labor over writing a song. When you're laboring, when I hear people about working on a song for a week. Like you've been writing a song for a fucking week. Are you kidding me? It's time to let go and move on. And especially if it's taken five of you to write a song in one week, there's a bigger problem there. And Dolly and I just went, we just had a creative flow. And we just took advantage of the energy that was going on. And then she showed up on the third day with all the lyrics. And we just recorded it down. It was like, God, these are incredible. And then when I got here, I recorded all the songs. Sent them ahead. She came down here and walked in and sang all six songs in one day. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Like what? I can't even get a young artist to come in and sing one song in a day. Dolly Parton at 73 walked in here and sang six very difficult songs in one day. Okay, so that part impressed you that she could writing fast doesn't impress you, but singing six songs in a day. Because you have to understand Dolly normally a woman loses their high range as they get older. Dolly is singing all her songs and all the original keys. There's no she does Choline or all of it code or in the original keys. Wow. And that is extremely impressive because like I've known artists at 20. And then I see him again at 30 and they're already they can't even get in fact. I have an artist that isn't even singing all her songs right now. And she's really new. And she's already dropping the keys down to preserve her voice. Dolly, Dolly is in it. She's a singer. That's all even she's a writer and she's a singer. She's a performer. She's Dolly Parton. One of the most recognizable people on this planet. Yeah. And she does not take her name lightly. Like she wants to know that Dolly Parton did all this. Like it's a Dolly Parton is her business. And she does she practice every day does she. She's writing all the time. She says that she's like you know I always kid around with her. I'm like do you really like what do you do at home? Like are you you know because she's always decked out. Yeah. And I'm like are you do you go to store you do you go to a store. And if you do you know and I'm and I'm convinced she has a whole other life. Because once you take off all that stuff there's got to be you can't recognize her. So she'll laugh and I'm like do you have another lifestyle going on and she's like never now. Well she also taps into clearly her early life. Yeah. Very easily because girl to movies to me. I mean it's it's a different period but it reminded me of coat of many colors. Yeah well that's what I'm saying like Dolly won't write just for a movie. She has to relate to it. So the inspiration was how can I write some stories that are going to be fulfilling to me emotionally and support this film and the characters. But the people you have worked with were very consciously or maybe not consciously when they showed up trying to make a change in their career. Trying to sort of push limits I think of the first pink album you did. Certainly the albums you did with Christine Aguilar and those are probably your most famous albums. Is that process different than what working with someone like Dolly Parton who's such a pro. When someone else comes in here how do you work with them? Well I still was changing Dolly. I told her I said I'm going to change it up a little bit because when you listen to Dolly Parton records there's a lot going on in the production and I told her I was going to clean out everything. I just warned them and I said I didn't want to make this a Nashville country album. I just wanted it to have a cool feel. I wanted to divide and they were all up for it and she has this song called Here I Am that I'm shocked it was never a single. So see us sing it with her. It's such a big song and it never was a single in the 70s. But I listened to it and I'm like well I can see why it was it was just a lot was going on. So Dolly doesn't need someone like me but what I offered and what I came in with was giving kind of like a flip a little bit like I just flipped it. You know kind of just gave her a tiny little not makeover but more of a like a let's just get you a little bit more present into the here and now. What were the what were the musical aesthetics you wanted to change? The music was just taking all the twang out and all the. It was like the Nashville out of it because those players are incredible players but it's hard to get a grip on them and then there's no feel. It's just guys going in a room and they're clocking in and they're taking their 15 minute break. You know but guys and bands they don't do that. They work for pizza and beer and they're done until they're done and the heart of it comes from that. You know so that was the biggest thing she heard that right off the top like one of the biggest compliments I recently just received was you know I put together her Grammy performance with that same band. And the sound everything and after the performance I did the whole medley you know and and can Ehrlich said that he's never let somebody do that before so he just let me do the medley put it all together and it came out incredible. It was a big hit everybody remembers. So then I'm out in the audience and I'm about to go sit down and Beck comes up to me and you know Beck doesn't talk a lot and he comes up to me and he saw that was great. You know really like mellow and I'm like thank you he's like so who is the band like would it be anybody I know and I'm like no he's like are they studio players? I'm like no I said they're all from you know I'm talking in his like you know like this lower level and I'm like now back I go there they're friends they're from bands and he's like you could totally tell that was really great they had a great feel and that is exactly what I was trying to go for is that when all the musicians in that room could hear the difference of all. Of what you normally get on the Grammys and what was even funnier is that they kept calling me the Grammys would ask me for the files and I'm all what files like well when you can just can you just send us over the files and I kept on going what files are you talking about you know they're like you know the tracks. Oh I go no dude this is live okay and then I get a call the next day do you when do you think you'll have those files over to us the sessions and I'm like I'm going to say it again we are playing live there's no clicks there's no back track no nothing we're playing live at this point Linda stepped out to take a phone call so we'll take a break too when we come back will have more with Linda Perry. How did Sears go from a one man watch company to the biggest retailer in the world to bankruptcy I'm Robert Smith and I'm Jacob Goldstein on our new show business history we tell the stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy and we try and understand the lessons behind their success and failure our new episode is about the rise and fall of Sears an incredible story that is really the story of America in the 20th century Sears rise fall America. Done listen wherever you get your podcast full video episodes search business history podcast on YouTube. We're back with Linda Perry so your background you grew up not here you grew up east is that right I grew up in San Diego I was born in Boston but I was only one years one year old and then I moved to San Diego. And guitar was your first instrument guitar yeah I just started kind of singing writing it just all kind of fell together and then and what age did you know that was going to be it I didn't so I never looked at it as music I just knew I was different and I was special. So I would like do stuff like interview myself at the time we had Mike Douglas in the Merck riff and show and I'd be on the Merck riff and show in my room and well now we're going to bring back Linda Perry oh it's so good to have you back Linda and I never know why I'm on the show but I'd be like thanks Merck. Oh yeah it feels good to be here and everybody and I see the applause I see everybody I'm doing this interview and everything but there was no clear understanding of what it was I was famous and on the show for and then everything that I did was modeled after this very confidence. Whatever it was it was never clear away anybody was on the Merck riff and then it got to school and I just could not I'm you know I'm very I'm not good in school I'm not good with learning something like it's hard from you to teach me something so I got out of school very early like eighth grade but I kept telling myself this was OK because what I'm going to be I don't need school I don't need to know math and social studies and this is going to be of no use for me or what are you going to do Linda I don't know but I know it's not. Okay I'm going to stop you right there because as beautiful as this room is there is a there's the studio room over there with all the equipment and I'll bet you know that equipment backwards and forwards. Yeah I had to buy it and teach myself how to do it OK but that it is a room that would scare most engineers general dynamics yes but you are able to teach yourself even things that complicated yeah well it's really not that complicated once you understand what they each item does because everything has a category there's EQ's that's pretty self explanatory me you got your lows you got your mid you get your highs and you just turn the knobs until it sounds good and then compression and compression you get a play with because you don't got a certain amount of knobs on that one and so you just turn it there's thresholds there's attacks there's all this stuff and you figure it out like you know oh that's what that does it was like I did this album which I just can't bear listening to it it's ridiculously bad to me the sound we we are good you know the band was a good band and you still like the songs on it kind of some of them but the song the sound of the record is like atrocious to me you know what's up with the only song I recorded I did that one so you recorded that I recorded what's up OK so wasn't the was not David tickle I recorded that because David tickles version was terrible so you record I re recorded it so when I would ask him questions about why does this sound like this or whatever I would be met with can't you just be the singer and let me just be the producer and be happy with that and then when I'd go to the label to tell them how unhappy I was with what was going on I would be met with exact same thing can't you just be happy knowing that you're you know being involved and your voice is being heard and he's going to change some things I'm like no that's my point he's not he's telling me to be a singer and if I'm just a singer well then there's a bigger problem here because I'm not on the main songwriter I am the singer but more importantly I'm the you know I'm running this band and I have a bigger vision than what's happening here so anyways so how did you do that I mean nobody wanted you to re record the song no I was miserable with this version because it had a solo in it he had me change lyrics there's a marching drum all this craziness and so we were pretty much done we had one real estate left and we said can we have that and so we took the real estate but I called the plant in Sol Solito it's like we don't have any money labels not going to give us any more money but we have to re record a song and we have one real estate can we come in and of course and so I think our manager worked out some kind of really great little spec deal whatever I don't know but barely anything they were so supportive of us went in there with their house engineer and I sat with him and just started dialing and sounds I don't you ever been behind the council before no no no at all but I watched everything so I just started dialing in sounds with him learning from him hey I'm not liking the way this kick drum sounds I'm going to go move it move the microphone around you happy with that that sounds great guitar tones vocal tone great we get our take we mix it that night because we're mastering this the next day so we mix it that night we're there to all night long and we barely made that version onto the record and then when I was telling my manager I feel like I should get producer on this my own manager was like I don't think that's going to happen you know they already have the deal and then I asked Tom Wally I'm like I feel like I should get producer on this and he can you be happy that you are part of it to your band you got it you saved the day let but why can't I get production I produce this David didn't David's production has a solo and a dumb marching drum and and this song would have been a hit if it was for David you know anyway so that was my first experience and then from then on out it was I just constantly asked questions and I started buying gear as soon as we started making money I worked with Bill betrayal on a solo album and he taught me everything he taught he said all the right things to me turn the knobs until sounds good to your ears there's nothing right or wrong and this is what this does this up up and so I just start by an equipment and then a bunch of it just sat in my warehouse in San Francisco and I would look at it and I just started kind of piecing it together and it took me months to figure out how to put it all together I mean I'm talking about 24 channel board talking about need prees compressors the machine all of it and I just kept going at it every single day until I fully understood and then I got it all in and then I had to call this one guy just a hard wire some things for me that I was like oh okay I get it I can't make this work has to be how hardwired into the the board so like can you come do this for me I don't know anything about that you know so was it scary getting up every day and looking at the stuff or you just thought that if you kept at it no it would work nothing's impossible I didn't say it was impossible as if it was scary no they're scared scary I'm only scared now I just recently got scared because the more when you get family fear fear starts showing up when there's other people involved you know but no fear and being scared has never been okay what would fear show up now well when you have a family your fear to fear of like I don't want to happen my family got to take care of them you know being a good mom but in terms of your in terms of your career you didn't have that no so when you did your I think your first soul was in flight was that the way you wanted it did that turn out I love that album that album to me is honestly it's perfection I love that album it sounds like everything that was in my head you know I sat down and with the bottle wine and my cigarettes and just sat at a chair just like this and basically saying like this it's very ambitious love different kinds of arrangements yeah well that's what was in that's the album I wanted to make but for non-blans and the label didn't want that album and I just said well I'm gonna go you guys can have that album there's a second album that we recorded and it was filled with probably pop songs but I didn't like it I couldn't go I couldn't support it did you start writing for other people and then start producing or producing then writing it came together because then I was so bummed out when in flight the label just basically shelved that record I was very disappointed so I just said okay I'll go find another way into this little party I was so fixated with vintage everything I did was you know on vintage gear I was kind of a snob so I moved to LA left San Francisco I'm like all right I'm out of here came here moved into this house and turned there's a room in there and I turned that into my studio and I called a friend and I said what's all that stuff on the radio right now like what are the what's that sound that I'm hearing and then he said oh it's a trident keyboard NPCs and people are recording to D88s now and and roll in expansion cards or programs I'm like all right so I went and bought all that set it up moved all my vintage gear out of the way you know left up trees and stuff plugged in all this shit and now I just know everything and I know what I'm doing I know how everything gets connected and so I'm like all right let's see what this shit does okay I get on the NPC it create a beat and then I create some other stuff and oh here's what are these weird little horns okay horns just kind of finding out what all this stuff does and this needs a wall want me to I grab my guitar like on me at this blah blah blah grab a bullet microphone and I'm just like I'm going to think of every cliche I can think of I'm coming up so you better get this party started get this part of started on a side you know I just started singing this crazy song and I mean it happens so quick but it was just me dickin' around trying to understand what this equipment did and then a week later who calls me this girl pink she's like left this crazy message and I call her back I'm like I don't think you have the right Linda Perry I just saw who you were and I don't know anything about R&B and I'm not hit at all and she's like are you Linda Perry that's saying what's up and dear Mr. President I'm like yeah and she's like you're the right Linda Perry so we meet and did you know her stuff at all? No well from MTV I saw it and I see bling bling Ching Ching come on and that's why I told her I don't it's not my world so I meet her we instantly connect she seems like a little mini version of myself you know and I play her get the party started I'm like oddly I just wrote this crazy song and I play it to her and she's like great and then she plays it to LA Read and they're like we got our first single those were the productions so writing and producing came hand in hand and then that's what started off but you said you were just it was a song just of clichés do you like the song I love it okay to me it's a it's totally fun I love it for so many reasons one it's so not my style do you have written a song like that too it has a lot of heart you know that song it's like it's crazy but it's got a cool vibe and it's so bizarre I mean I have harpsichord and clouds and I got the craziest things if you actually listen to the song and break it down there's so much going on in there but not you know but I and then everything was live again nothing was cut in pace it was like I just played everything on the fly so there's no punching in either like that was the beauty of this track if I picked up the base I played the base from start to the and there was no I didn't punch in anything I was just I didn't know this was going to be a recording I would thought it was just going to be an experience you know and how much of that those original things you did in that room ended up on the final that was all of it really yeah that was it so everything her and I did was the final and they were just demos so I pride myself on doing really great demos and one of the great things I tell people it's like it's very very important no matter where you are when you write a song and you're going to go demo it make sure you're recording it great just take a moment because you're never going to get that back you're never going to get that vocal back of writing a song and being in that moment right then and there you can recreate it you could try to get that back but that moment when you write that song in all your heart and your energy is in it just make sure you record the vocal the best that you possibly can because that vocal chances are is going to be the master vocal what was pink like to work with did she understand that really great you know problem child or rebellious but it was fun like she needed me and I needed her like we entered each other's lives in a very interesting time like what does she need from you she needed my guidance and my like I'm when I'm with artists I'm very grounding I ground people and give them she needed to get out of what you know she they were turning her into an R&B artist and she didn't want to do that and she wouldn't have gotten it out on her own so when she and I met I pulled her out I asked her can you bring me your CD collection so she showed up one day with her big CDs collection like two big catalog things whatever and I just went through them at Bruce Springsteen the time Carol King a wreath of Franklin Errol Smith Errol Smith Errol Smith and what did that tell you well I said how are you doing the music that you're doing you don't even have any of that in here she's like I don't know it's where I started you know she started in a girl band that was being put together oh yeah she's one of those yeah she was they're they're putting her together and everybody was writing the songs and so sitting with me we actually it's like well let's just write whatever we're gonna write and there is this one song called eventually I said do you trust me and she's like yeah I think so and I said I need you to just I'm gonna play some chords and you're just going to open up your mouth and you're just going to start singing and she like looked at me like huh I go she's like how am I going to do that I go you're going to do it from your heart you're just going to close your eyes and you're going to tell me how you feel right now but you're going to tell me on the microphone and you're going to use words and you're going to sing it at the same time and she was petrified so we put headphones on and I just started playing these chords I found these chords I didn't know the chords were going to be and I just found these beautiful chords you know and it's just instantly you're just in this moment you're just feeling this emotion because that's what chords are supposed to do and she just opened her mouth and sang exactly what is on the record like all those words were made up that whole take was improvised so if you go back and listen to eventually you're going to be extremely impressed kids you not the only thing we added was I started producing up the track and maybe disembarkroams but that piano and that vocal was all ad libbed and it just went and I got it was so emotional obviously something happened the trust and the channeling and just opening up and just going for it that song really made me very aware of who she is as an individual too because of what she was talking about the whole song is about people trying to have control over you and did you know it when you were playing it we were thinking this is it this is the song I knew and I found the chords yeah something magical was going to happen so she was definitely was great about her and kind of everybody that I work with and maybe if I can be as bold to say it's me that's making this happen that all the experiences are extremely vulnerable and open and I can tell you about this experience with pretty much every artist I've ever worked with it's something that I feel is extremely important to happen my job as a producer is to make the artist feel safe and have them trust me and because what we're trying to do is be creative we're trying to do something different we're trying to tell a story and it's very important that whoever you're working with feel safe because otherwise you're not going to get that experience you make it sound almost like therapy it's very much therapy it's I mean there's crying there's vulnerability is there's confessions is that why you think so many of your artists I said earlier they seem to be wanting to take a different direction when they work with you yeah is it they don't want to is is that part of is that the result of the way you work do you think I choose who I work with they don't choose me but I choose because I have to understand that something something I'm going to get something out of this and it's not hits I'm not looking for that I prefer album tracks I prefer albums I don't like doing a song for somebody I don't find any satisfaction in that whatsoever I have to know that I'm going to be able to have this experience with somebody and it's going to be real and it's not going to be like hey can you write me get the party started or beautiful or whatever their thoughts are I don't work with people like that I want to look back at my career and be really proud of it when we come back Linda talks about Christina Aguilera and how she gave her the song beautiful how did Sears go from a one-man watch company to the biggest retailer in the world to bankruptcy I'm Robert Smith and I'm Jacob Goldstein on our new show business history we tell the stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy and we try to understand the lessons behind their success and failure our new episode is about the rise and fall of Sears an incredible story that is really the story of America in the 20th century Sears rise fall America Done Listen wherever you get your podcast and for full video episodes search this is this history podcast on YouTube We're back with more Linda Perry you mentioned beautiful can you tell me a bit about that song because that really is you've written a lot of terrific songs that is one of the great songs of all time It's great because it's just an honest statement like I feel like that song really was the starting of all everybody getting vulnerable and making an honest statement especially having some of my Christina Aguilera sing it Did you write it for her? No I wrote the song for me and she just happened to be when I had finished writing it she was who came in through the doors never was intended for anybody and she asked me to sing it or play something when she came here my studio was here it's full circle for me I'm talking like 15 years ago whatever it was she you know I had my piano and she said I'm nervous and I wouldn't allow her posse to come in or management so that's the thing that I have I don't need your friends to hang out and distract and I don't need managers or labels to come in here and act like they know what they're doing so all that stuff is does not allowed in here so she came in and was nervous and she didn't have her group of people I love your voice because you think you could play something to break the ice and I'm like alright sure so I just happened beautiful was the new fresh song and I play that to her and she just instantly was like can you record that I want it for my album and I was in shock I'm like it's not a song for you I don't feel beautiful you are beautiful so I was like let me hear you sing it so it had her come back like three days later again by herself not with her well no this time she asked if her friend her friend could come and I'm like alright no problem your friend could come because he was driving her I was like okay no problem so we go in that room and I'd lay down the piano I had given her lyrics she had I sent her a demo to practice before she came so I pushed record and literally no kidding she you know don't look at me you know and as soon as I heard that she's like telling her friend don't look at me like that's where that came from oh he was in the room yeah he was in the room and she said okay and I knew as soon as I heard that the song was hers it just expressed so much vulnerability and I was like oh she's insecure just like me you know she doesn't think she's beautiful like a beautiful person doesn't say something like that because the vulnerability in her voice so I knew right then I was going to keep that that's the starting of the song and that she was definitely the right person for it and that take is 80% the take and I just went back and punched in some flubs that she did she's such an acrobat with her voice did she want to keep going back at it to make it well yeah she begged me for seven months to rerecord the vocals and I said no she's like but I know it better I'm like exactly that's what the problem is right before we finalized went into mix she's again begging we're at Conway Studios now she's like please let me just racing the vocal I'm so unhappy with it it's and I said I can't tell you why I'll give you a shot so literally you hear the beautiful simple you know quartet mind you it's a quartet 16 tracks on that song 16 tracks that's all that was used on that song so you hear this quartet and then she comes in with every day laugh is wonderful and then I just push stop she's all what I'm like you're already ruining the fucking song you know and she like you're right and then that was it she really she got it she's like I'm never going to beat that vocal I'm like you know you're not wow so finally you know I want I mean it's a classic it will forever be a classic song for her it's her most I mean it's the her top song yeah and it introduced a vulnerable Christina it introduced like oh maybe she isn't just what we think she is maybe she just isn't orange tan and you know a vocal acrobatic like it it brought in emotion a relatability the all sense she is relatable yeah she was she was a prodigy and prodigies often have trouble communicating so that song single handedly changed the way everybody looked at her do you think as a producer and a songwriter you relate better to female artists or do you think that that just is simply who you've worked with I'm where I'm at because it's by design again the universe is is putting me in this position because obviously women need me in in this role because there are none I get a lot of times women being so relieved to be working with a woman because they've never done that before on the songwriting and production side but I'm also tough so I can not fall into the we're not going to be BFFs and talk about shopping I'm a strong woman that is very focused on what it is that I want to convey and I'm quick at picking up people's energy and what's going on with them I feel like it's awesome that somebody has a me to come to because I'm safer to be vulnerable I mean let's just face it it's not everywhere and I'm not saying this about every guy but guys can be dicks in the studio there's ego there's this whole I mean I experienced it can't you just be a singer? that happens still today there's sexual harassment there's can I just come in to this fucking studio and just not be hit on you know what I mean? is that stuff you to put up with? me? no God no people don't want any on me I'm talking about all the stories that I get from these women it's like it's a constant thing this is happening 15 years ago 50 years ago and last week so when you come work with me you know that's just not going to happen you're going to come in and we're working we're going to get down and dirty you know with the music and creating it's safer and then I have really great information and again there's a lot of women that like that strong male energy I kind of have that so it's like you're getting the best of both worlds in a sense because I can be a dick if you want me to right I sure you saw a piece of that from me and I mean I'm not all I'm not a soft person but I can be I'm very genuine and I'm very real and I'm very honest would the music business be better if there were more people if there were more female producers more female songwriters I don't fucking know man I have no idea I don't think women I'm only speaking about myself and I don't relate to either or to be quite honest I'm Linda Perry I've always been Linda Perry and however you want to call that I don't really care but I just do what I do and I think the world would be better and the music business would be better if people did what they really truly wanted to do and not focus on what it's going to impress people or how many records they can sell or how many followers they can gain if we just did things from a completely different intention that had to benefit other people how can I write a song today that's going to benefit somebody what can I do today that's going to help somebody how can I help the community if we had that then we would know that in order to help the music community and the songwriters all the fame and all those things we need to start having some songwriters that are writing some fucking valid songs that's going to boost up the community we're going to have to kind of take some risks here and decide maybe just maybe what if everybody's decided to stop streaming what if everybody decided you know what, fuck this my next big wreck what if Adele, Miley Cyrus Taylor Swift and whoever Sean Mendez all decided that their next album was going to be on vinyl and only on vinyl and they were going to sell it at mom pastures across the world and targets and wherever else and they were not going to release a song on the DSPs you know what that would do it would fuck some shit up, man but you know what, it won't happen because they'd be afraid to lose their fanbase their labels won't let them do it because they're afraid to lose money and everybody is operating on fear of losing something and we can't live that way we can't have a successful business when we're all afraid to actually expand the business and grow it Do you think people it would make people listen to the music more? Well, being the micromanager and the producer I am I would make sure that somehow I would have hands on it I would have to go through my ears first because the first and foremost most important thing is you've got to make an album that is actually good you can't just put two good songs on and then a bunch of filler like I'm talking about some old school shit let's get back to the album where it was 11, 10, 11 songs and they were great there was obvious hits and there was great, great album tracks that supported those hits because that's what we're missing now you're not forced to buy an album you could just buy the single you put together your own compilations no one's listening to albums and then but then everybody says well albums don't sell but then Adele will put out an album it breaks every record out there why is that? hmm? Are they good albums? Huh? Adele's record? well this last one to me wasn't as good as the last one but yeah I think she makes great records and she's not playing the same game either you don't see Adele splashed all over the place she's just doing her thing and when it shows up it's quality it's classy and you want it but everybody's afraid oh I don't want to be irrelevant you know or oh I gotta have like record companies or you gotta have a single out every week why? because you don't want to work one we're just putting it out there until it hits so everybody else does all the work for us labels aren't even a label anymore that's why they're going down and managers don't even manage is this why I mean you started your own publishing? yeah that's why we are here is really important to me we are here as HEAR and my partner Carrie Brown we manage we're a label and we're a publishing company and now apparently we run events as well too but we are great like I'm a great manager because we're in it we are with our artists what is your dream? oh god that sounds so complicated okay we're going to make it happen you know it's like there's nothing impossible and building careers we have an artist named Dorothy she's on rock nation now if it were up to rock nation her album would be done she had to have all her songs singled out in the first month you know and it would be like we're like that's not going to happen we're on two years her album has been out and we're just about to go into her third single like that's unheard of and she started two years ago playing to 300 people and now she's been opening for Greta Van Fleet she's playing Woodstock she's selling out her own you know 1500 to 3000 over the course of two years because we just kept looping her around I was calling radio stations myself they're like holy fuck why is Linda Perry calling me because Dorothy's my I managed Dorothy they're like holy shit this is so cool you know whatever and well what do you need I'm like I need you to play Dorothy just once that's all I'm asking player once maybe you don't like it? great the listeners don't like it? fine but if they do then I want you to play her ten times and then heavy rotation and that's kind of where we're at and so we have artists of all different calibers and we have an artist named Willa that's 14 I found her when she's 12 I've been developing and just nurturing her and making sure she's okay and she's incredibly prolific and extremely talented kid and she came to me finally and just said I'm ready I'm like ready for what? she's like I want you to put me out there and I'm like like my little baby you know I'm afraid but then I wasn't afraid because we're her label and we're her manager oh I'm not afraid we got this yeah if it was somebody else I would be afraid that's a lot of work that you don't want to just keep producing and writing you want to do all that like that's a busy life I'm a very busy person but um. do you work well under those circumstances? yeah unfortunately I do I'm really good under stress and it brings on happiness at times you know because you're just like constantly working there's never a break but I helps me grow you know as a human being because it's just like it's so challenging to operate with no sleep and no rest and constant stress you really are challenged with who you are as a person and how you are to other people and I have a very short temper but I'm great I really do think I'm a really good human being do I have a lot of work? yeah I have a lot of work to do on myself and I have a lot to offer you him her everyone because I'm vulnerable and I'm honest and I'm not afraid to look bad I'm not afraid to look good I'm not afraid to be ugly or pretty and I feel like I'm really happy with how I'm turning out as a human to hear more about Linda Perry including her full collaboration with Dolly Parton and a playlist of her greatest hits visit BrokenRecordPodcast.com BrokenRecord is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gembrell with help from Mia Lobelle Jacob Smith Julia Barton and Jacob Weisberg special thanks to my co-hosts Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell our BrokenRecord theme music is by the hip-hop phenom Kenny Beats check out his new album Anger Management with rapper Rico Nasty wherever you get your music for Pushkin Industries I'm Bruce Hebbam How did Sears go from a one-man watch company to the biggest retailer in the world to bankruptcy? I'm Robert Smith and I'm Jacob Goldstein on our new show business history we tell the stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy and we try to understand the lessons behind their success and failure Our new episode is about the rise and fall of Sears an incredible story that is really the story of America in the 20th century Sears rise fall America Done Listen wherever you get your podcasts and for full video episodes to search this is this history podcast on YouTube This is an iHeart podcast Guaranteed Human