LINA KHAN Talks FTC, Monopolies, Biden

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You function kind of like as someone that enforced the law. You were kind of like a cop or like a, you know, did you ever ask for a gun? You should have got a badge. I know we probably should have. You know, we did have investigators, who like went undercover sometimes, and they did have badges. Did you send guys to Burning Man to like figure out tech corruption? We didn't have that good idea. See, had I gone to law school, I would have had that great idea. Because they would have been on Molly, and they would have been like, we're going to make one company. The whole economy is going to be one company pretty soon. I guess. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Go. Let's do it. Just let me get over that real quick. Just my feelings being hurt. Hello and welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. I'm Adam Friedland. Thomas just bullied me. All right. Hello and welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show, guys. Adam Friedland here. First off, as always, I'd like to thank our members for supporting us here on YouTube.com. You make the show possible. Seriously, guys, members get access to all of our episodes early before they're released to the general public. And if you join at the second or third tiers, you also get your name in the credits of this fine program. If you'd like to join the Friedland Family Foundation, you can do so by clicking the Join button here on YouTube or by clicking the link in the description below. You can also support us on Patreon if you prefer. The link for that is also in the description. And also, guys, merch is now available. Go to theadamfriedland.show to check it out. We got hoodies, T-shirts, hats. The hoodies are fucking flying off the shelves, guys. Hop on those real quick before they sell out. You could conceivably wear an entire outfit of the Adam Friedland Show merch if you make your own pants and shoes. That is true. That's a funny line, Caleb. Leave that in. You deserve it. Give it up for Caleb Pitts, everyone. My guest this week is former FTC Commissioner Lena Kahn. Lena has been in the news recently. As she is the head of Zoran Mamdani's mayoral transition team. During her tenure at the FTC, she became a powerful enemy of major corporations like Amazon and Meta. Transforming a famously toothless arm of the executive branch into an effective valve on corporate power. Effective valve. A valve is something that regulates like a stream. Regulates? Hmm. What does that remind you of? Okay. Good copy? Bad copy? That was a good copy. Think of Lena Kahn like Batman. And think of Amazon like the Penguin. Meta. Bane, I guess. Oracle. Hugo Strange. Joe Biden. Ra's al Ghul. Apple. Killer Croc. And I will be Alfred Pennyworth. The butler. The point is, Lena is one of the good guys. And I'm Alfred. So please. Caleb, you crushed it this week. I was on the phone too much and Caleb wrote perhaps the best intro we've had thus far. Give it up for Caleb Pitts one more time. I love my team. Please enjoy my conversation with Lena Kahn. Great job, everyone. Hey folks, I just want to thank Rowe for sponsoring this episode. I'm not a RoweSparks user, but goddamn do I wish I was. And I'm excited to tell you what it's all about. Guys, if you haven't had sex before, it can be incredibly exciting and hot and spontaneous. And I can't tell you how confident you feel when you get hard fast in those situations. RoweSparks are a two-in-one prescription treatment for guys who want harder and more controlled erections. They hit the bloodstream fast because they dissolve under the tongue. And getting hard fast means there's less waiting time to perform. So RoweSparks dissolve and they work in 15 minutes on average. Plus, RoweSparks dual action formula stays active in the system. For up to 36 hours. No, you don't have to stay hard the whole time. But when you get aroused, you're able to maintain an erection. 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That's where the Orthodox, right? Yeah, yeah, that's true, yes. It is a pretty Orthodox neighborhood. I think now it's a bit more, there are like a lot of Polish immigrants there as well. Thank God, thank God. No, it was a nice place to grow up. Dude, she's a gooner, do you hear that? What? Arsenal fans. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know that I could faithfully still claim that. Stop being a lawyer, just lie. Have you learned to lie? You're allowed to lie, though. It is like against my disposition at this point. I know. Watching interviews with you, you're like, they give you opportunities to talk some shit and you're like, how odd. I know the rules for this. Well, I feel like once you've testified before Congress, we're like, the main goal is not to lie. It's like that becomes like really ingrained in you. I agree, yeah. People don't lie in front of Congress. It's bad if you do, so. You know what, guys, can we just do the interview now and then we'll just do the walkout later? Yeah, yeah. Okay, 'cause we're already doing the interview. Okay. You've never told one lie in your entire life? I probably have, like as a kid or something, but. Not since you were a kid? I don't know. I mean, in my last job. I lie every, my whole life is a lie. This is a lie. It looks pretty legit, but. I wanted to ask you something I thought was really kind of cute, but about your, about the Starbucks thing when you were in high school. Uh-huh. So you were in Westchester? Yeah, I lived in Mamaroneck, went to Mamaroneck High School. And so the kids were causing a ruckus up in Starbucks by your high school? So Starbucks said, but that's why we needed to investigate it. And what did you do about it? So there was basically some stores outside of the high school, including a Starbucks. And people would go there and hang out there and buy coffee. At Starbucks? And then they started a policy that students, even if they purchased something, couldn't stay in the store. They couldn't sit down. down. So I wrote a school newspaper story about it. You're Martin Luther King. But didn't you get in the New York Times? Yeah, it somehow became enough of a thing where the Times then reported on it and cited my story. So were you a little bit sucking up to the popular girls that were at Starbucks? I don't remember it that way. I was genuinely just curious why. You were being a suck up to the, or you were the popular girls. No, I mean I was a newspaper editor, you know. I don't know that that counted. Have you ever gotten a B? A B? Yeah. Probably, yeah. That's a lie. I got you to lie. No, no. I mean I took some hard math classes in college and probably didn't do so well. I need to get, I need to swear you in. You never got a B. You got a B in hard math? Some hard math, yeah. How did it feel to get a B? It was humbling but in a good way. Humbling. Did you take the LSAT June 20, 2009? No. Dino game? No. No, no. I took it later. Do you know the dino game? The logic game with the dinosaurs? The logic puzzles. I know the logic puzzles but not with the dinosaurs. I took it right before you. Okay. I didn't go to law school until 2014 so I took it later. What did you get in the LSAT? I don't remember. Come on. Stop it. I really don't. You're being humble right now. You got 180. I don't, I don't think so. Straight up 180. I'd have to go back and check. Did you finish first? Where you're like, "Done." I don't think so. You definitely did. It's so, I like, I, yeah, I took it three times. It was an inflection point in my life. Yeah, no, it was an inflection point for me too. I was trying to decide whether to go to law school or whether to be a journalist, so. Your thesis in college was on Hannah Arendt? Mm-hmm. What was your, what was your area of focus? I think it's pretty interesting for the times we're kind of living in right now. Yeah, it was this close study of a bunch of her work including a book she wrote called The Human Condition. And in the book, she basically writes about how, you know, how technological progress can lead to a lot of advances, but also require a certain degree of distance. Mm-hmm. And she has this analogy with the plane around how like, you know, airplanes like allow us to do pretty great stuff and like make physical distance shorter, but it requires an altitude that makes you see less. And I analogize how she talked about kind of expertise and what can get lost in it to how we got into the financial crisis. So, that's like the most boring book she wrote? That's what your thesis was on? I don't know if that was the most boring, but… I thought your thesis would be on her romance with Heidegger. Oh, yeah. The Nazi and the Jew. Right, right. I guess that was a component of her life. One thing I heard you say in an interview was that prior to the establishment of the Third Reich as a centralized power structure, that industrial conglomeration or like was a big component of it. Is that correct or am I just… Am I trying to say words? I feel like I'm copying words I heard on succession, maybe? Yeah, you know, obviously, there were a lot of factors that facilitated the rise of Nazism, but the U.S. after World War II actually commissioned various studies to be like, what just happened and what factors contributed to it, including trying to figure out what was happening in the economy. And they did actually find that growing consolidation across the German economy had basically facilitated… Facilitated the rise of Nazism. You know, you had like more monopolization and certain types of rubber and steel. And generally speaking, there's long been a recognition that concentrated economic power can go hand in hand with concentrated political power. And, you know, I think that's an insight that has been lost more recently, but we're kind of being forced to reckon with again. So you think Paramount, if they buy Warner Brothers, maybe Barry Weiss will be maybe of gobble. She doesn't talk shit at all because she knows all the rules. She knows all the rules. a little bit more successful. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Okay, so let's explain to our audience, you became a star even before you graduated law school. So you published an article about Amazon when you were in law school, and you kind of made some enemies. Yes. What was your position that you were taking? So basically I was writing about how the contemporary way that antitrust law gets interpreted, which is a very short-term focus on whether monopolies are raising prices, was creating all sorts of blind spots and used Amazon as kind of a vehicle to tell this broader story about changes in our antitrust laws. The Law Review article actually came out of a whole bunch of interviews I had done with two sets of market participants. One was the set of businesses that were selling on Amazon, and the other was financial analysts and investors that were looking at Amazon more through a long-term prism. And it was really interesting because at that time, this is like 2012, 2013, the general consensus in DC was that Amazon is this company that is just delivering all these low prices, and there's kind of no monopoly power or dominance concern here. But when you talk to those sets of market actors, they were like, yeah, of course, this company is amassing structural power, that one day it'll just be able to flip the switch, and that's the whole investment proposition here. And it was just one of these instances where there was a real gap between how kind of the experts and the pundits were understanding what was going on in the economy and how when you talk to like real people that were doing business with this company, how they understood it. And that gap was really interesting to me. And so I decided to try to make it into a lot of the article. So in essence, you're saying that they were dropping prices so low that like mom and pop were just couldn't compete. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, they were engaging in a bunch of business practices that like 50 years ago would have been illegal. But because there was this kind of Reagan revolution in antitrust, where we now basically assume that monopolies were good, unless they were engaging in a very narrow set of practices that were bad, we'd kind of become blind to being able to see, you know, corporate dominance and monopoly power, unless and until it hit this like very narrow set of conditions. What do you make of the argument, or like, like people would say, like the Sears catalog is going to drive the general store out of business is it just that like yeah like Bezos kind of reinvented a supply chain but I can get any crap I want tomorrow like do you get crap on there I I'm not a prime member so I don't really buy stuff I'm not a prime what are you doing you go you with your feet I mean that's a good thing about living in New York City you know you can buy a lot of stuff in person yeah but you could also get any crap tomorrow it's true I mean the thing is it's It's really not about, it's more about, you know, the antitrust and antimonopolia laws were designed to basically create more checks and balances in our economic sphere. Sure. Because there was a recognition that, like, you don't want to concentrate economic power. And through competition laws, there's an assumption that firms, if they're having to compete for your business, they're going to try to make things better, be it through lower prices or kind of better service. Right. And so we want to maintain competition and there are fair ways to compete and unfair ways to compete. And our definition of what is unfair ways of competing has like radically changed over the last few decades such that companies like Amazon have been able to get away with things. And, you know, when I was at the FTC, we ended up filing a lawsuit against it. After investigating it, we found that it was breaking the law and that now it is actually systematically raising prices for people, both consumers. They've fucked everyone off. Yeah, because they can. Yeah. And, like, the businesses that have to sell on Amazon now have to pay as much as one out of every two dollars to this company. Sorry for cussing, also. It's not a good situation. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of that is because they don't face real competition. Do you think the game Monopoly is maybe problematic for people's understanding of Monopoly power? It's possible. Because no one wins at Monopoly and everyone's like, you're a bad guy. Right. Everyone's like, you know, I mean, it's a disaster. Your dad just relapsed on alcohol. He told your mom that she's just like her mother. Your sister's crying. That's what happens when you win a Monopoly. And you're like, I'm the best guy in the family. You know, there's a really interesting history of that game where it was actually designed as an anti-Monopoly game. And then it was, like, you know, commercialized and made into a kind of a pro-Monopoly game. Wait, so what was the objective? That everyone has different stuff? In the original version? You know, I haven't played the original version, though I actually have a version of it. So I need to try it out. So you went back into the think tank world after law school? Just briefly, yeah. Were you offered like a federal clerkship or something? I mean, it seems like from your resume, like you could have. Yeah, I was supposed to clerk a year out of law school and my judge ended up passing away a few months before. So then I kind of had to rejigger things and ended up actually working first at the FTC for a commissioner, Rohit Chopra, who had just joined, who was doing incredible work. And then actually ended up joining as a staffer to a congressional committee, where we did a big investigation of Apple, Amazon, Facebook, and Google. And so I was there for a year and a half or so. And you started working with Elizabeth Warren or like in an unofficial capacity at the time? Is that correct? Yeah, not officially. But she, in 2016, gave a big speech basically saying, across the economy, we have now extreme consolidation. and she named companies which in DC is unusual this issue of antitrust and anti-monopoly. um and she became kind of an allies as somebody who agreed that we really needed to reinvigorate this area of law and so from my understanding well two things first is like how did president biden how did you get drafted in the league at 32. it's a great question um i know it you were the youngest by like 40 years probably in the government yeah uh oh in the i mean there had been some prior ftc commissioners that had been in their 30s but i think chair um yeah probably was the youngest so how did how did you get scouted like how did they know that you were the goat it's really cool that president biden was like this is the one yeah and you like changed we'll get into it but you changed the way kind of a toothless uh part of the executive uh functioned from what i understand yeah i mean how people get picked is like a total mystery um oh now you're lying now she's lying we got her guys what happened you know you basically get a call being asking you if you're interested in serving from the monopoly man from from the federal government and you get a call from the federal government you get a call from somebody you know working in the white house who does personnel sam they they usually somebody who works in the office of um personnel hr it's basically hr for the white house who has to like figure out for all of the political appointees who are we going to pick so they call you to ask if you're interested if you say yes you have to have all of this kind of background checks and have a lot of conversation with security people um they went into the starbucks right probably they probably like called someone at the starbucks yeah they call people who know you to kind of try to figure out what's going on um and then sometimes you don't hear for a while and you have no idea am i in or am i out um in my case i ended up being told that i had been picked as a commissioner and they were going to announce it like the next day had you spoken to president biden before no really yeah he wasn't like keto kiddo the malarkey of you you're you've got no malarkey uh no we we didn't get to have that conversation so you came into it from what i understand and as you alluded to from reagan until the time you came it was 2020 2021 yeah 2021 like from for so for what 30 years it was basically a completely just what they did herbal life right was that their big hit for 30 years uh they were very focused on you know frauds and scams and you know it's staffed by very well-meaning people but there definitely had been kind of a real narrowing in their ambition well so you walked in the office everyone's hawaiian shirt beer pong were people doing uh uh like xeroxes of their butts you know it was still coveted so it took a while until everybody was like back in um but no i mean you know the staff there was very hard working there had been people who'd been there since you know for decades she won't talk they were definitely like look at this homework nerd coming in trying to make us work for the first time ever no i mean there you know it was it was i was an unusual pick for a bunch of reasons so uh you know it was a bit of an adjustment for the agency yeah yeah how'd you get paid it's a great it's a great question because you you're not nepo right no i mean no you're like the smartest one they never picked the smartest one seriously it's like a rarity that's why i'm so fascinated by it yeah especially so young they hate youth in hollywood in hollywood in ugly hollywood i mean in dc they have a contempt for youth it was an unusual pick and um i think it really did speak to how in a pretty small number of years the kind of elite even elite consensus about anti-trust has started to change yeah and so there was a growing sense that the kind of reagan approach which had become a bipartisan approach right i mean the incredible thing about reagan was like when they came in the stuff they were pushing was seen as really fringe and you know there were deep partisan fights but then you fast forward 12 years after eight years of reagan four years of bush and the stuff that had been really fringe of theirs was now just the new common wisdom and so they were pretty masterful in kind of getting their set of ideas and ideology to become the new mainstream and it took until you know 2018 2019 2020 for there to be a greater recognition that that had been the wrong path and we needed to kind of re reinvigorate this area of the law even from what i understand people that were supporting the anti-trust campaign were uh kind of kind of going at your ass a bit is that correct it wasn't clear if if kamala won if she would continue kind of your project yeah look i mean she you know a president has the prerogative to kind of pick their pick their own team so they were um the bad guys not not not choosing who they were gonna who they were gonna have in place before they won your first round draft pick you know i i think it would have been her it was an honor to serve and it would have been her prerogative to kind of choose the path forward but it's true that there were people who were upset by what we were doing and that were kind of being very vocal about there were a lot of people who were upset i don't know if i'd say a lot newspaper that i believe wait what did i find there's like 53 op-eds against you after you came into the ftc at least yes they were saying they were why you drove them nuts you were living rent free because it's tech was it big tech and hedge funds um it there was some big tech uh trade groups a lot of it was you know also the deal makers um so parts of wall street that make a lot of fees off of mergers and acquisitions um but you're just some lady i mean you're you're what five foot four yeah five four five fives and there look at uh brain death at khan's ftc and linacon blocks cancer cures a hedge fund that made a killing betting against linacon linacon needs to see shark tanks kevin o'leary linacon whiffs again why were you such a lightning rod i mean how are you like this but then in in the court you're like that i mean i think there were a few things i think i think we had had several decades of elite impunity where if you were breaking the law but you were in a c-suite the government would go light on you and if you were breaking the law and you were in a c-suite the government would go light on you and you know even in places like the ftc sometimes there had been a double standard where if you kind of found that there was some like small-time scammer or fraudster you would like bring the full force of the law against them but then if you kind of found that a fancy ceo was breaking the law and their company was publicly traded you might go a little lighter you're contributing to your campaign and i you know i thought that was just really problematic and so we were very clear that we were going to enforce the law in an even-handed way no matter kind of what your political connections were we just had to look at are you breaking the law or not and i think that approach to enforcing the law upset some people two things did president biden when you came in give you that mandate was he like go for it uh the white house was very supportive of kind of what we were doing um president biden did sign this uh executive order in 2021 that was pretty significant i mean he basically said the last 40 years of kind of robert bork style antitrust has been a total mistake and i'm you know directing my government to basically turn the page on that failed approach and that means the ftc the doj but also all of these other agencies need to really focus on taking on monopolies so there was definitely a mandate and they called you a hipster uh that was one of the labels that was attached to you so you were like listening to grizzly bear animal collective what was it why what was that why did they go there uh you'll have to ask the people who came up with the term but i think their their view was the approach to antitrust that we wanted to advance was like a throwback what was the other thing like neo post brandeisian or something right neo brandeisian that's pretty cool you functioned kind of like as an someone that enforced the law you were kind of like a um like a cop or like a you know did you ever ask for a gun you should have a badge i know we probably should have you know we did have investigators who like went undercover sometimes and they did have badges deep undercover in wall street usually you know usually not on wall street usually kind of if there were like various types of frauds or scams or that sort of thing did you send guys to burning man to like uh figure out tech we didn't we didn't have that that good idea see i had i got a law school i would have that great idea because they would have been on molly and they would have been like we're gonna make one company the whole uh the whole economy is going to be one company pretty soon yeah and they would have been on ketamine or whatever the hell that is a very creative investigative technique can we go back to the ftc and try it and can we cut that from the episode because i feel like we've cracked it just now go to burning man they're all on drugs over there talking about the the singularity i guess today's episode is sponsored by incogni incogni helps to wipe your personal data from the internet and protect your privacy folks this i'm i'm not alone in saying this but we've all had our data breached i've i've been breached numerous times on the playstation network supermarket club card you get breached i've seen how many emails have you guys gotten saying that i think i've gotten maybe a hundred and i've never done anything about it until i got this great service in cogni which uh assists 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Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. So you took this. This toothless organization, you made it a potent organization for the first time. Did you have any structural changes that you had to enact in order to get the ball rolling there? Yeah, a few. I mean, first we brought on more technologists because a lot of the economy is now becoming digitized. But you kind of need people on your team who understand how the stuff works. So we brought in a bunch of them. We hired more lawyers. You know, we started litigating more. And so we brought on more litigators. The FTC is pretty small relative to the size of its job and mandate. I would imagine you just get outgunned. Like they have 9,000 lawyers. You have like 12 guys. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the like in-house lawyers of these companies are greater than like the entire like competition bureau of the FTC. How many guys do you have? In total, we have 1,300. I thought you were going to say 13. That would have been hilarious. But no, I mean, we are totally outmatched when it comes to resources. I mean, the amount of money they have. So you kind of have to figure out how to navigate that. What do you view as like your biggest dub? Gosh. I mean, there are a lot of cases that are still pending. You sued Call of Duty? We did sue to block the Microsoft Activision merger. That merger did go through. We weren't successful. And now you can't get it on PlayStation? Call of Duty? I think you can, but I think you get it early on Xbox. Look at what you did, what they did to it. You were trying to sell it. You were trying to stand up for Caleb. Well, there have been a whole bunch of price hikes that I know gamers have been pretty upset about. Well, there's the Game Pass thing. That's right. Caleb, you want to sit in for me and talk about this? I don't care. It's $30 now. It's very expensive. It's $30? $30. Look at what they're doing to my beautiful boy over here. Yes, they do. Yeah. You know, we were very focused on health care markets just because people depend on health care. And one of the initiatives we did was really try to figure out why our drug price is so high. And one reason they're so high is because pharma companies use all sorts of patent tricks. The Orange Book, right? Yes. Yes. Wow, you went deep. I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer, yeah. So we called out those pharma tricks. And three of the four big manufacturers of asthma inhalers dropped the price from hundreds of dollars to just $35. So there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people who rely on inhalers who are paying less today. And did you. Did you get them scared? Like, were there mergers that weren't attempted? Because they're like, cons coming. According to them, yes. Really? They would go on TV sometimes and say, you know, back in the day, we didn't have to think about antitrust risk. We were thinking about our deals. But under this administration, we have to think about it right away. And I guess, like, on the politics side, there were some Republicans that actually were like, that rode with, that fucked with you. I mean, like, where. You got. It didn't go along partisan lines. I mean, like. That's right. There was Josh. Josh Hawley was one of them, or no? Yeah, he was pretty supportive of a lot of the FTC's work. Who else on the Republican side were, like, kind of, like, supported, like, you? You know, there were a lot. There were a lot of members who were really concerned about big tech in particular. Some who were concerned about these pharmacy benefit managers, these, like, drug supply middlemen. So it was kind of issue by issue. But generally speaking, like, taking on corporations, corporate power when they're breaking the law is very popular. And there were Republican members that recognized that. You went after Meta while you were in the FTC. We sued them, yeah. Yeah. And so, and how did. What was the result of that? We're actually waiting to find out. The trial happened a few months ago. I would think that Trump would just stop that. So there was a big effort. He's got a new haircut. You know, like. Yeah. We got a. He's got a chain and a haircut. He does MMA. Case closed. Yeah. No, I mean, I think there was a big. Effort. I mean, I know Mark made several visits to the White House leading up to the trial. And there was kind of effort to get them to settle it. But they let it go forward. I mean, you know, that doesn't mean they won't. We'll see it all the way through. And I think the lobbying pressure is constant. And the type of access these people have to the White House is pretty unprecedented. So I'll have to wait and see. So if you went to the South Bay, would you, like, wear a Bulletproof vest or something? Like 50 Cent? Do you know the song Many Men by 50 Cent? Have you heard it? No. But does that. As an individual, do you process that? Like, I mean, it is kind of crazy that, like, you drive them nuts. Yeah, it was pretty striking. Have you got phishing emails, maybe? Yeah, you always have to be on guard with those phishing emails, you know? One thing I think most folks have heard about is that, you know, there was a liquidation in the civil service. I think something that's useful to, like, talk about is, like, having a. robust civil service is how, like, planes don't crash into each other and, like, we don't get screws in our cans of tuna, you know? Yeah. Like, I guess, like, what changes were made at your shop after you left? And, like, what have they chosen to pursue since you've been gone, the new commissioner? Yeah, so I think a lot of people have left, especially in the consumer protection part of the work. The butt Xerox guys are back? I think they're, you know, they apparently are now trying to hire. Maybe they. like, too many people go, but there's been a real backsliding. I mean, you know, we were firing on all cylinders and taking on all sorts of, you know, big companies that were breaking the law and there's definitely been a slowdown in activity there. They've also kind of shifted gears, so, you know, they allowed this big merger to go through between these two ad agencies and one of the conditions of that was basically that they had to buy ads from Elon Musk, more or less, on his platforms. Yeah, under the purview that they couldn't kind of discriminate on political grounds. So, it does seem like they're more eager to use the law to kind of advance their political grievances. And they pursue sex changes? Yeah, they're doing some workshops to see if they should go after doctors. Workshops? Yeah. Well, like, you go for a weekend to a hotel? I think it's like a bunch of bureaucrats in, like, a conference room for half a day. But, yeah. What was it like being 40 years younger than everyone else? It was pretty strange at times. I mean, there were definitely people who'd been there since before I was born. Was it a bad hang? No, I mean, people, you know, I think it had been tough for some people because I had been known before I got to the FTC as a critic of the FTC. And so, I think some people interpreted that as kind of, you know, personal criticism. And I had been critiquing, you know, the political leadership and the way they'd been doing this. Yeah, there was a sense that, like, wait, why is the hater now our boss? You know? Ooh. So, you know, had to navigate some of that. But people really came around. And I think people were proud to work at an agency that was on the front lines of protecting people from corporate abuse. And so. Is it supposed to be an independent agency? Like, ostensibly, the Justice Department is supposed to be, but we're seeing it's not at all right now. But, like, did you. Is it, like, the president can't really mess with it? Or is. Is it, like. Yeah, the president's not supposed to direct us. You know? I'm sure Trump. is giving them their space right now yeah i mean it's an interesting dynamic because previously there used to be a lot of speculation about kind of who's heading what agency but now it doesn't really matter as much because it's all being run out of the white house so a lot of those decisions just you know it just doesn't matter and what cases have they carried on from your tenure so they're still continuing the case against amazon um against facebook uh there are a bunch of cases against like ag monopolies uh against john deere uh it was making it really hard for farmers to fix their stuff um they're continuing some cases uh against uh we have one against adobe that was making it really hard to cancel subscriptions for pdfs yeah yeah exactly acrobat yeah so the vast majority they've they've actually continued oh really the cases but the place they pulled back are the rules so we issued a rule that would ban non-compete clauses for americans these are those like contractual provisions yeah they were like doing it to people at mcdonald's yeah you can't work at wendy's after you leave that's right fast food security guards janitors health care workers why the are they what's the point of it i mean they would say it's because they're trading in workers and they don't want to lose their investment but for to a lot of people it seems like it's just to get greater control and power over the workers i took introduction to micro and macroeconomics so um so so i'm kind of i think i i'm qualified i don't want to speak from a position of of authority unless i'm qualified but i think i'm qualified here but what like my understanding is the argument for consolidation is they say that it'll create more efficiencies that could be passed on in savings to the consumer is that is that kind of what you've been pushed back on that's often the argument yeah but it's stupid no because it's like if there's one company they could charge a zillion dollars and still and make it for cheaper yep and you say to the judge i could be a lawyer i think so yeah yeah do you ever give a closing argument i know we had very talented litigators that were in the courtroom i was not personally making those arguments so you do the boring parts of the lawyer that's right you don't do the razzle dazzle parts no unfortunately lena why are you doing the homework parts you like you do the worksheets parts yeah exactly oh you love homework why don't you do the like give a speech we have very talented people who were experienced at litigating litigating and did that very well you can't handle the truth you never want to do i want the truth um you would be so good at that thank you let me know maybe maybe second career yeah we've all dealt with headaches trying to make progress with our finances this could be overdraft fees missed payments or wishing you had ways to save more child better says that every dollar counts that's why when you set up direct deposit through 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terrified of it so the justice department brought one of their google cases before a jury they wanted to have a jury trial and google basically just gave a bag of money to the justice department so that they could avoid the jury trial it was in a bag more or less i think they sent them a check or maybe it was in a bag it would have been cool it would get a trash bag yeah yeah and um and you know there was a recent survey there was law firms are advising their clients you know to avoid jury trials because they're realizing that people's sentiments towards corporate america have turned people hate companies i think i think that's good though right uh you're gonna follow the rules and not say that's good i mean it's good i think people are realizing that a lot of the things that's bad in their lives is sometimes being driven by corporations that are breaking the law and have bought influence perhaps in our politics perhaps perhaps you could say yes allegedly allegedly that's right counselor counselor aston answered asked hearsay have you ever fallen asleep in court and then objected when you wake up uh i haven't had that experience that's from a movie right if you ever fall asleep in court you have to object when you wake up uh-huh i think the john grisham when you enforce um a policy as when you were a commissioner um you oftentimes would file a lawsuit um a lot of discussion has been made about how the judiciary is kind of uh it's a kind of it's is there ever a fear that something could potentially go to the supreme court which is kind of um it's understood to be a quite partisan at this point and six three in the other to the other side is there a fear that you could actually those initial regulations that you're trying to enforce yeah i mean there's a lot of strategizing that has to go into like does it make sense to appeal this case is there a risk of making things worse yeah so we definitely have to think that through but if you win and they appeal they're like we're gonna ride this to the top and then they're gonna let us make one company for the whole world so what is the current state of the judiciary like what in your estimation like you know i'd say a few things like there are a lot of you know district court judges appellate court judges that are just trying to do their jobs and like be faithful to the law i think there has been a general drift coinciding with more republican appointees on the bench of like just more hostility and skepticism of federal agencies when they're trying to use you know trying to make things better in the economy more or less um so that's been a challenge i mean during the biden administration you know there were dozens of rules that were being put in place to make things better and to make things better in the economy more or less um so that's been a challenge i mean during the biden administration you know there were dozens of rules that were being put in place to make things better in the economy more or less um so that's been a challenge i mean during the biden administration you know there were dozens rules that were basically blocked sometimes by just a single judge in texas in texas even rules that were trying to you know limit overdraft fees or say that there are only lines can't lie about the price of a ticket, the FTC non-compete rule. You know, we even passed a rule that said companies have to make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to sign up. And a lot of those rules ended up being blocked. So there's just greater skepticism of agency power. I think this is going to be a revealing moment as to whether that's selective skepticism, like are you only skeptical when it's Democrats in those agencies, or is it actually a bit more consistent and principled? That's very fair and noble to say, honestly. I mean, seriously. I mean, the courts shouldn't be partisan, right? They should be enforcing the law. Yeah, interpreting the law, that's right. If you had to look at the American economy, what industry do you think just fucks my audience, or the people the most? I mean, healthcare probably. Yeah, they have the most blood on their hands. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about the Orange Book. That was me, something I heard five minutes ago, and I just had to impress you. But like, one of the ways that they raised the price of inhalers to $500 was that they would file a patent on like a strap. That's right. On like just pieces of plastic that have nothing to do with like the actual drugs. But there are all sorts of tricks. I mean, you know, there are people who have died because they can't afford their medicines in this country. And when we were at the FTC, we would kind of do these regular open meetings where anybody could sign up for a patent. And I think that's a really good point. I think it's a really good point. And we would hear from people who would say, I have a family member who's having to literally ration their insulin or their life-saving medicine because it's too expensive. And some of that was done through illegal tactics by the, you know, drug manufacturers, by these pharmacy benefit managers. And so, you know, let alone the fraud that we see in all sorts of parts of the healthcare system where they're literally defrauding the government and just like bilking money. Is it like, as a member of the civil service, right? How much do the politicians fuck up? Are they the biggest obstacle to like you guys like doing your jobs? You mean like? Like politicians. Like members of Congress? Members of Congress, yeah. Or even the president at this point. Yeah. I mean, it varies. It's hard to paint in a, you know, broad brush. There are a lot of members of Congress that were very supportive of the FTC's work in both parties, even on the Democratic side, kind of a broad, you know, a big tent. And there were big efforts to make that happen. And there were big efforts to make sure that these agencies were actually funded and had the resources they needed. But I would say that, like, there have been trends that have just make it, made it so expensive to bring these cases. Like a single antitrust case. If you're trying to block a merger, you can have to pay an outside economist anywhere from one to five million dollars. If you're trying to bring a case against a monopoly, you can have to pay an outside expert anywhere from 20 to 30 million dollars, just for a single case. And, you know, the budget is going to be a lot higher. The budgets of these agencies is, you know, less than half a billion dollars. And so it's just become this, it's actually become somewhat of a grift, where it's like these outside experts that are just, like, raking in this money as all of this litigation has become so expensive. So if you need money for a lawsuit so that people don't die from a company, you have to go to Congress and be like, please. Yeah, basically. I'm but a poor boy. I'm a lawyer. Yeah. You have to ask them and then they're like, they're like, they think they're better than you. Yeah. Well, you have to, you know, as chair of the FTC, I'd have to go into Congress every year and testify before the House Appropriations Committee. And they're the ones that decide how much money we get. Who was on that when you were there? There were a bunch of people. Freak show. House is freak show. It's different. I thought the House was the government. When I met Chris Murphy, he was like, yeah, it's the House. It's not a big deal. I mean, the House is the most democratic branch of government, you know. Do you think that they should start wearing. wearing nicer clothes again? I honestly don't have a very strong view on that. Don't answer that question. You're so nice. Yeah, I guess so you, the health care industry and then who would you put second? I guess that's, who are the top five most evil? You're not going to answer, but I'm going to say industries that have the most adverse effect on Americans' lives. I mean, within health care, there are a lot of different actors. There are the pharmaceutical companies, you know, health insurers after health care. I would say in food and agriculture, too, like the agriculture industry in this country is so consolidated. That was one of your first things, right? The chickens. That's right. The chickens. You want to tell them about the chickens? Yeah, yeah. I mean, so when I was doing some of this, you know, market research, one of the industries I had to study very closely was chicken farming. And that's an industry that is consolidated a lot. And so you have, you know, millions of consumers, thousands of farmers, but they're just connected by basically four chicken processors. And so if you're a farmer. Sometimes your entire livelihood depends on doing business with just one company, and that company has a ton of power over you, over your livelihood, and there are all sorts of abusive tactics. So you mean, like, small farmers sell their chickens to, like, a big factory guy? To a chicken processor, yeah, like Tyson, you know, Tyson Chickens, Purdue, and it led to all sorts of abusive tactics. There's also been a phenomena where. Like quotas? Is that, like, they say you have to make your, like, and they raise the quotas each year? Yeah, they can raise the quotas. They also can basically, like, penalize farmers by giving them bad chickens. What do you mean, like, sharecroppers? It's, it's, people have made that analogy before. It sounds like 1880 or something. Yeah, yeah, it's really horrific. And people are actually paying, have been paying more for meat and chicken, even as the farmers are making less. And it's basically just the middleman taking a bigger and bigger cut. Mr. Tyson goes, good. That's good. Well, Mr. Tyson. Mr. Tyson is the one taking more and more of it. Of course. Yeah. Does it, does it make you cynical? Did it make you cynical? Like, as someone that was trying to enforce something that's, like, obviously just being nice? Like, to a guy that has a chicken farm? That Mr. Tyson's like, I need, I need more chickens from you, otherwise I'm going to. What are they, serfs? Are they, Mr. Tyson's a feudal lord? There are certain parallels. It's feudalism. It's really wild, yeah. I mean, you know. You know, I think, I think the fact that more and more people are recognizing that it's really screwed up, that so many of the parts of the economy are like this, and are kind of demanding that type of change, it's going to take a while, but I think it is a positive sign. But they have way more money, and they can just keep doing it because they have more money? That has been the story so far, but I think if we have, you know, political leadership that is able to stand up to it. That is able to stand up to money, then maybe it could change. What was your, like, most cynical moment as someone who was trying to just simply enforce the law? I mean. You've got to be bummed some days. You're like, fuck this shit. I mean, I think, I had a real sense of urgency because you never know how much time you're going to have, and time in government goes really quickly, and these types of windows of opportunity to, like, really do serious pivots in how we've been doing stuff don't come around very often. Mm. I didn't feel like I had time to be cynical or bummed for too long. You just had too much work. Yeah. That's kind of chill. It's nice to be busy, right? Yeah. Yeah. We were very busy. You can't invest your brain in drama. Yeah. And, like, you know, I was like, well, I'll think about that on the other side, whatever that is. What did you get on the L side? Come on. Stop lying. I read that you're just lying to my face. Lena Kahn had been around when the typewriter was invented. Lena Kahn gets punched. Pushed back. Lena Kahn finished yet, question mark. An unfond farewell to Lena Kahn. When you see the press, what did you think? Were you laughing? Sometimes. Sometimes you're like, what, this guy's talking shit in the newspaper? Who was the most, it was Wall Street Journal primarily? Their editorial board, yes. Their editorial board. They were really fixated. On you? Mm-hmm. Do you think they had a crush, maybe? It's a good question. Did you ever clap back? Uh. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Not directly. I mean, I think I did some event with them once, maybe, the Wall Street Journal. Yeah. Did you diss them? You had a burn? I mean, we kind of let our work speak for itself. You're so mature. A lot of it was just like unobjectionable, you know? Do you have political ambition? Like to run for like Congress or something? Be the president. No. I mean, I wasn't born here, so it makes it easy on that one. You weren't born yet. You were born in England. That's right. Do you want to be maybe the queen then? Not especially. I can see you as queen. You'd be great. You'd have little corgis that shake hands and align. Would you be a senator? Would you want to be on the Supreme Court? What do you-- I guess just from what I'm seeing is like you seem very honest and altruistic. And what is your project? What message do you want to get across? I mean, I think the current economy is really screwed up, and I think we need an economy that's much more fair and where people can get a fair shot. And the current economy is not just like the product of some natural forces. It's like entirely rooted in laws and policies and political choices that we have made. And so my project is to make a case for changes in how we do law and policy so that we have a more fair economy. We had Chris Murphy on the show, and one thing I talked with him about is like the remarkable thing that's going on right now is Trump is like, this is the law I'm breaking right now. He's just saying it. And it's fascinating to watch because it's like, you're supposed to lie, right? And he's like, in this way, I'm doing some sort of fraud, right? It feels like the law at this point doesn't matter because it's so rampant. Do you think that the law, you want to make the law matter again? Do you think it can matter again? Do you think that there's a point where we can't go back? Can I have four more questions? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, in some ways what we are seeing now is just like a caricature of being able to violate the law with no consequences. It's like TV or something. Yeah, but I think for a lot of Americans, they feel like there's been a version of this that's been happening for a while, right? Where they think. They're quiet about it. It was maybe a little bit more subtle, but I do think that there was a sense that if you were an elite, you could get away with certain things that non-elites couldn't. And I think this is kind of going to bring to the surface a question about what do we want the rule of law? What do we want it to look like in the future? And are we going to be enforcing it equally in a way that even if you're fancy and rich or connected, you actually have to follow the same set of rules and are not able to, you know, engineer a massive financial crisis that is kicking millions of people out of their homes and still kind of, you know, not really face consequences for that. Yeah. You're saying that Trump is doing 12-dimensional chess, he's saying the crimes to make it finally illegal to break the law. So you're saying he's kind of actually the hero Gotham needs. You know, I don't know how much foresight is going on there, but yeah. He's doing a great job, I agree. There is an opportunity, I think, here for Democrats as they think about, you know, what the future looks like. But as I said before, like, if there are people that were kind of backing the Harris campaign that were kind of opposed to the work you were doing at the FTC, you know, to what extent can the Democratic Party coalesce around that as a project? Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it's going to be a real choice, right? Because what some of those people were really saying was that we actually don't like it when the government enforces the law against us. Yeah. We liked it with Clinton and Obama when they were, with the guys Xeroxing the butts and so on. And honestly, I mean, that's not too different from what we're seeing with Trump, right? We don't want the law to be enforced. We want it to be enforced selectively. And so when we were at the FTC, we would say, you know, is this corporation breaking the law? If so, let's do something about it. We weren't then thinking, oh, but are their executives big donors to the Democratic Party? And, you know, I'm personally pretty disturbed by people who think that we should instead have a system where Democrats do stand for that type of selective enforcement. So I think it's going to be a big choice for the party. You got 180, didn't you? 178, because you were humble. You were like, I'm going to drop two points to be a good guy. Just tell me the number. We'll bleep it. We'll bleep it. I truly don't remember, but I'm happy to. She's lying to my face right now. I thought you were a noble jurist. You're lying to me to be nice to me because I'm a stupid guy. I'll tell you mine. No, you, okay, will you tell me? Will you? I mean, I'm happy to guess, but I. Guess mine then. I don't know. One. Okay. I don't know. You baited, no, you promised me that you were going to get more, that you were going to tell me. If I had to guess, it would be something in the 170s, but I don't remember for sure. She is full of shit right now. Just tell me. 179. You missed one, to be nice. Yeah, 170. I'm jealous of you because you are the, you're the son that my parents wanted. No, I really appreciate your time. I think like, I think you contextualizing it as like the fraud happening right now is kind of par for the course for what was happening previously is like an important point to make. Because it's like, I think a lot of the time people view things as exceptional and like if we get rid of Trump, then everything will be fine again. But like if, you know, if there was a kind of pathway here, I think it's a better way. Yeah, I mean, look, no doubt what, what Trump and the Trump administration is doing is a level of corruption and grift that is pretty unprecedented. No, you said he was a good guy earlier. No, I mean, look, it's, what we are seeing with this administration is like truly, totally anathema to the rule of law and all the values of this country. And it's a level of corruption and grift that is unprecedented. I think for a lot of Americans, they've been feeling that the rules have been raised. And so it's a question about kind of where do we go from here? I feel like when we've had periods of extreme corruption, like the FTC was started because of the like robber barons and stuff like that, right? Yeah. But there was an effort every time to like kind of, kind of make something that fixes it. And I feel like now it's just like, it's like we're just putting like tape over like a leak that's coming into the ship. It feels a little bit that way to me at least. I mean, I do think we need, you know, like a New Deal style. Yeah. Level of ambition. You think I should, you think I should run for president? Okay. Do I have to do the thing? We're going to close on it. The FTC thing. All right. Because it's, because this, I, so our audience, it's a comedy show. So I have to just, I'm sorry about this. Okay. I just wanted to do. Should I do it or no? She's so nice. Okay. FTC. Does that stand for fart, tits, cock? Does that stand for fuck this crap? I'm sorry. Shit. Fat titty committee. Funny titty committee. Friend, friends that crap. Fart TC. We just need for the audience. They're not. They're going to like, I'm, I just needed to put in something immature for them. Cause I've been so mature in this interview. Totally. No, you got to play to your audience. 178. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, no, it was a good fun. Should I go to law school? I mean, you know, it seems like you, you're really. Write me a letter. Uh, happy to, happy to. For an elder, for an elder, uh, student, I would be in your class. I'd be older than you. I'd be 38, I guess. By a year or two. I'd be like, who the hell do you think you are? Why do you think you are talking to an elder like this? She's going to get me into law school, dude. Oh, uh. My dad's going to finally tell me he's proud of me. No, he loves the show actually. Today was very educational. What? Cause of the stuff I said mostly. Yeah. We didn't call everyone. Did you have fun? Yeah. You've never been around such a. Unserious person. Uh, it was very different interview than most of mine. What are you talking about? I'm the Charlie Rose of millennium. Okay. I thought it was really fun. Lena hated it, but I thought it was fun. Lena re somewhere around here. Okay. You want to watch our soul this weekend? Um, uh, are we rolling? Ladies and gentlemen at 32 years old, she was, she became head of the FTC under Joe Biden. Give it up for former FTC chair, Lina Khan, there's a commission. Is it commissioner or chair? Uh, you can call me Lena. No. Were you the commissioner or the chair? I was the chair. I was the chair. The chair. Yes. Would you want to change the name at any point? You could have been grand poobah. It's actually in the text of the law. Really? Yeah. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. or swelling in your neck. 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