504. Lila Kilby, Kat Markham, and Baslam Mountain Preserve in Person

(upbeat music) - This is the plaid cast on Piper Clem, publisher of the plaid horse magazine. Coming up on today's plaid cast, we're doing something a little different. Tell me if you love it, if you hate it, if we should do it again. This episode consists of parts of my visit to the Boston Mountain Preserve in rural North Carolina in the Blue Ridge Mountains in June of 2026. In the first part, we are miked up while I go on a trail ride with Lyla Kilby, who runs a equestrian center there, and we chat horses, chat life, and you just kind of get to join me on a trail ride. In the second part of the interview, I sit down more formally in the barn, and again, interview Lyla Kilby, and then also trainer Kat Barkham of the Boston Mountain Preserve. And we talk about training, methodology, and ethos in creating a program that's not around competition but has high-level aspirations and standards for horse care and consistency. And so something a little bit different from both regular plaid cast and the people, we very frequently talk to on this podcast. So come along for the ride, and I hope you like it. - Taylor Harris Insurance Services. There for all the questions, amateur, and the professional, for all types and/or breeds, no matter what discipline or level. Taylor Harris is committed to excellence in serving you and protecting the horses you love. Taylor Harris Insurance Services, your worldwide equine insurance specialist. - This episode is brought to you by Proper Shrides. If you own a mirror, you know the mirror stair and the guessing game that comes with it. Proper Shrides tracks heat cycles with predictive windows and real observations. Plus records, ride logs, and equibot, your equine expert on call. Podcast listeners get a 14-day free trial at properstrides.com/plad. - Lila Kilby is the Equestrian Director at Boston Mountain Preserve, a 4,400-acre private residential community in Silva, North Carolina, set amid the Blue Ridge and Great Smoky Mountains. A Greenville South Carolina native, Lila was bitten by the horse bug at age six on the back of a gentle Tennessee Walker named Sonny, and she never looked back. She earned her BS in Animal Science from Clemson University in 2016, and then spent that year show season working for a 100-jumper veterinarian, traveling circuits to Chicago, Traverse City, and trion. At Boston Mountain, Lila oversees a growing equestrian program that includes a care of a dozen horses, boarding lessons, guided trail rides across more than 40 acres of mountain trails, and a full calendar of horse-related community events. She's known for her passion, her warm sense of humor, and her ever-present barn dog and unofficial mascot, Doose. In this portion of the podcast, Lila and I go for a trail ride together, and I get to ride my first ever Tennessee walking horse, which was amazing. - Sorry, sorry, 'cause I'm just getting adjusted. - Basically, once upon a time, there's about 1,100 acres out here, but we're gonna be riding on. - Okay. - But used to have like a hundred more house lots on it. - Okay. - So our current max is like 354 one day. - Yeah. - And so it would have been like another like, you know, up to 400 or something. - Okay. - And many, many years ago, one of the old developers, like three or four ago, turned 1,100 of this acres into conservation easter eggs. - Okay. - Still owns it, but the trail system that lines through it. - You can't tell, does it? - I'm giving it to the CA. - Okay. - Us being able to use, which is great. So that means like this road right here, this is called Cadden Flapster. We'll never be like, propelled up into a paved road. There will not be any houses down it. So we are thrilled that it's going to pass the riding. - Keep losing my left stirrup somehow. - Sorry, it's works. What am I doing wrong? Is it, is it lower? - I'm like, you were sad all of it. We have a lot to do. - Okay. - Okay, hang on a second. Let me just get, it's works. Let me just get it. Okay. We're in. - It's works is like your worst case scenario. It's like people who know nothing have like very, very, and you're like, yeah, it doesn't feel right. - It's like, I don't bring this lot of horses out in there for the people. - Yeah. - This is definitely like, or it is only you. - I know. - I know. (water splashing) (water splashing) - Yeah, I did like it. I think it's really fun to see people who like, I really don't know. I'm over there looking at the first time for my life. - Yeah. - I'm like, I love that, and I won't say this. I tell everyone. Those are my favorites, actually. 'Cause I don't have a lot of like bad habits to break. - Right. - It's the ones that are like, oh, I go out with this one particular ranch every year. - Yeah. - And I think I've heard of it. - And so, this is how I run, and I'm like, how do you run on my horse wings? - Well, like we put my mom on, and she's like so brave, which like cracks me up because like, but like nothing bad's ever happened to her. Like, we're like, we're like, it's okay, and she like believes, you know, she's just like, okay, well they said it was okay. And I took this one lady out one time, and she'd never ridden. She was afraid of them on the grounds. - Yeah. - But then I was like, oh, I wanna get out there. - Okay. - I took her on like, my 13 minute ride. And she was like, she rode like that. - Yeah, yeah. - And it was like, yelping. Like anytime there was like a branch or a horse trip, or sister's tail, or Bob's head. She was like, ah, you know? And I was like, ah, like, I don't think she's having any fun back there. - But like, good for her for trying. - And she did it, yeah. - And she did it. - Yeah. - And I was like, yeah girl, I'm doing it. I'm like, that's a lie, that's a lie. - 'Cause like, there's some people that like, we just have to get over that hump. Like, whatever's in their way. Like, if you can get them over that hump, and like, there's so many people. Like, I put on my horses that like, like, I haven't ridden in 10 years. And I'm like, hop on this one. And then like, a month later, they'll have like least a horse. Or so, you know, it's like, that was the only barrier they needed to get away from. And then, yeah, like, I think doing this would be like, the best thing for a young warm blood to do for like, two years, and then go out and start their show career. I guess we're in the rest of the day, and then things are coming up. Like, she can't come out with her machines, but it's the horse's. - Yeah. - And you can actually go in and develop around horses. It's like a backup tiny bit, you know, around the time they're two. - Yeah. - And I think this is not in the field, it's in the woods. - Yeah. - In our own mud. - Yeah. - South Fultas. - Yeah. - And then they, you know, they're taking out on one. I don't have to sound like you, but like, when you're riding, and then you heard them, it's like, you know. And then he, like, long-limes jumps them over their first, like, crossing through obstacles. And like, let's just figure out what a new parent to eat like doesn't, you know, maybe for a lot of times, you know, riding is a thing to do about doing the right thing for the horse, making sure everything is perfect. And I'm just like, gosh, like, life's not perfect. - Your horse needs to be charged in, like, real body, they don't need to. And if you're worried about getting the perfect distance from the horse. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But that's like, if they went out on here, they would learn how to use their body and find their feet. And like, that would serve them their whole lot, is. - I feel like my horse needs, like, all the rock space needs to be like, five steps away. - Yeah. - And I can feel it in the dust. - Yeah. - And I'm going to put some of them on the trail before I give them the ants. - Yeah, yeah. - And like, if you're working on going on a long rain, and taking a day down the last year, you're not going to sleep in the last year. - Yeah. - Make a choice. - Make a choice, yeah. That's what we say to ours all the time. We're like, make a choice. - Yeah. - Make a choice. - Make a choice. Yeah. - All your horse needs to be charged in, and I'm just so easy. - Yeah. - I was like, and if I would work, and I'm on the house there, I'm sure I'm not about to be on it. - Back and go on. - And go on trail, right? (audience laughing) All art you can tell who was raised on like the side of a mountain because I have the perfectly changed because like literally if they skip change they would fall over. And that's been a mighty flood of years. They're on my sister's house because like you know indefinitely suborder concerns. Yeah. And so like they've lived there they've both been on like the 6,7 years and they're 23 years old. One hundred percent. They're on zero joint maintenance. Yeah. But what other 22-year-old horse is going to go out here and go for a gala, by any way? And the first thing is if I condition them, they can come out here and certainly do a good like real gate for their longs, I probably get them up for like 12 mile hours you know. Yeah. If I was in contact with you but I want them to be calm and safe and comfortable packing and then I would be like, "I'm so comfortable to get this out." and that's another thing. I can tell her how balanced the rider is. I have to wear my horses to get the ride. Yeah. Because I'm like you know, that one's rider comes in through the ride for now and I go to like that spot. Yeah. Because they were like this was a lot of work. Yeah. But having like the physical and emotional skills to not have that help and like just get sweaty. And be fine. Yeah. Right exactly. That's not a good place. But they are. So, they're waiting all the way. I have them close to club boarders. Yeah. Look at their actors. They're like, "Cosh, do you need to stuff like, you know, like section planning that's working for me to retire them?" And I'm like, "No." I'm like, "If I were to clean these, they need me." How did I would do it? I'm like, "If I were to get stuff like that, they need mostly talking sections." I was like, "You would do it to keep you before it's too hot." Yeah. To make another one. Yeah. So, I have this thing where like our entire, this is like my like quiet project, which I'm going to like launch like probably next year, like being really vocal about it, is that like our entire industry was built on the thoroughbred as like the byproduct, right? Like we could get cheap thoroughbreds and you could make them up and then, you know, not the horse sports ever going to be affordable, but it was like affordable enough. And then now we have like purpose-bred warm bloods. And everyone in the process wants to make a living wage, which I fully believe in. But then it's like, you can't buy a warm blood for less than, you know, six figures. And then it just prices everybody out. So, I judge a lot of local shows, and I'm seeing more and more like frankly, really nice Mustangs showing at the local level. And like now we have more and more tiny jumper, you know, a try on. You can go do the two foot jumpers. You can literally try on invented the Crossrail Olympics. And I'm like, so you can get a Mustang. Like if you adopt a straight off the range, so they're $125 adoption fee. And then if you let a cowboy like pick through, like even the expensive ones are five or 10,000, like after someone's picked through them a little bit, and they need some training, just like the thoroughbreds always did. But like then we can like, because like the horses are so valuable now that they're assets, and we can't let the kids touch them. So my barn, like we have all the jumpers and the pony jumpers are getting big, but they don't jump that big. So we just got someone to call that a bucket of Mustangs. As our like trial thing, and if it works, like if it works for us, like we'll like start pushing it, because like yeah, they're, because like a lot of families could afford, save up an afforded $10,000 horse, you know? Like realistically, like that's, and also like then people would just like let kids do stuff and be less psychotic about, like oh, like my kid can't wrap it, because like, if it bows a tendon, then, then like I can't afford, you know, that's my house, like, and like I understand all the factors, and even if a kid just, if a kid out of like a Mustang is a practice pony that they got to do everything on, or you know, like some of them have great hammers and jump really well, and like, so I'm all. - I'm speaking to like a horse that has actually really survived. - Yes. - And as with a lot of things, there's a bit of an engine in here, and like, up to that one, and it's jumping horse. - And it's certainly an everyday event. - And like, my horses, if they did like, two lessons a day, it would be like calling the union, like, like my horse at an eye to say a show, and he slept for like six days afterwards. He was like, you cannot ride me, I'm still asleep. I am still asleep, you guys. But then it means that like, like no one can afford lesson horses, because like, the warbards used to step down and do lessons, and it was affordable to do that. Like, the warbards can't step down and do lessons, they just like physically fall apart. - Right, but yeah, and that's like a good hacker, like, lessons horse is almost impossible to do. - Okay. (laughs) - Um, you know, I was like, 'cause they get, like, they either get to run down, or they're not even like, there was somebody down for a lesson program. - Right. Or they're still like, my best thing is, like, they're too fancy to get repulsed. - Yeah. But they're too fancy to like be part of an ecosystem. That's not big horse shows. - Like, you see them out of something, but the horse, like, has a thousand dollars. - Right. We have an inner-city barn, and it's like, so cool what they do for the kids. It's amazing for the community. - I think, I think it's awesome. I didn't fill in everything. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But the horses are aging, and they need to like, replace them, and they don't really have the money. - I don't need to, like, pay you. - Is it faster? - Yeah, yeah. - And chopper detoxes. - Yeah, yeah. - It's awesome living for you. - Yeah, yeah. - It's also gonna get so solid. - So I got them, like, I got them a shockwave this year. I was like, you know, I was like, looking around, and I was like, okay, we're on a limited, like, how would I deal with this at a porch over on a limited footprint? You know, they do their best, but like, it's limited, and I was like, the horses worked too hard, but also like, they're doing such good service. Like, how do we make them the best we can? So, I'm like, but I'm also like, okay, I think the shockwave can get a few more years out of some of these horses, and then we need to herd of my things. But that's my goal, so. - Yes, yeah. Like, good, yes. We're rescuing these horses. Then the prisoners are doing the backing. - Exactly. - And they'll come out with some trees. - Yep. Yep, and they're. - Those whole circles are gone. - Yes, yes. No. And they have a purpose, and they have people who come every day and love them, and great food and nutrition, and so. So, yeah, that's my next, like, I think that's my 2027 project. I just want to make sure it all works first, and like, whatever issues we run into, I want to know what they are before. Like, yeah, trouble shoot it before we, like, get going on telling people about it too much. But that's, to me, that's how we fix horses, and because the only reason it existed before is because the threads were byproduct. Like, it didn't. It's not like anyone could afford this purpose, bread horses before. We just had this weird wormhole the last 10 years, where, like, everyone was on the purpose, bread horses thing, but, like, that's not sustainable, and then we can afford that. No! So, many, like, 60-year-old ladies, I know, get, like, spun off of their warm blood, and I'm like, wouldn't you be happier on a quarter horse? Like, your quarter horse can jump 26, it can go to horse shows, it can look cute, but it also, it's not going to spin you off when it gets cold. - Let's go get an appendix. - Yes! And then. - Someone has to, again, talk about efficiency. - Yeah. - Relations. - Yes. - People want to buy horse, and then they're like, oh, I didn't get to show it. It's first season, I owned it. - Yeah. - And I'm like, what? - That's why I share my, like, six-year thing all the time. It's not that, like, I'm particularly proud of that, but, like, also, I want people to know that, like, they're, that's what it is on some of them, you know? - If you're doing it for the horse, it shouldn't matter how much. - Right. Right. Now, I view it as, like, my horses are never for sale. Like, a lot of people can't be honest, because their horses are going to be for sale, and I totally get that, you know? And so my big thing is like, my horses are never for sales, so it's their job to be like embarrassed. Like, their role in this community is like, yeah. So, do the borders like trailer up here on their own and ride? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just delivering some sounds. And they're making some like, they're making some sort of noise. I think they're going to walk towards you. You know, he's getting even more. Now, I'm not even being a white. I see. Right? Yeah. Spending you got the pep. I think you're, uh, you're going to have regrets about this. I will say like, I love the day you get worked. Yeah. Like, yeah. No, I mean, I can see how if you like had to ride all day long for work, this would be like, very attractive. The saddle would be very attractive. This is also the reason why it's like sport models. It doesn't have a horn. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. That's amazing. Although, I don't like the horn either. For time, I'm sorry. I'm not so needed. Like, if I like to feel into those, I forgot for my bra all. Yeah. And I want, you know, my to dish now. I got my sports bra all like. Oh god. No. No, no, thanks. No, thanks. I can't stop. I got lucky. Thanks a lot. I can't stop. It's a much larger car. I like it. I like it. Yeah. Which saddle is that? Tucker. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's awesome. I needed that for my mom. Yeah. And then we must stir up because I say like fighting fingers, be stabilized with rockers. Yeah. Even like again. Yeah. They might feel like, oh, more stable in it than putting them down, putting you trying to rest of their body on a stable. So, I like to stop here. It's a lot for like, like I said, for my girls. Yeah. You don't want them to feel the horse as much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They have a hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is so nice that it's like so like private. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think something like that also has topical line borders that Anna Hayler. So, it's essentially like our own private national forest. Yeah. So, all we have to do is share with our neighbors. We're going to ride and then we can jump right here. Okay. Okay. Okay. We're going to ride through the barn. We could like ride like that to the barn. Oh, cool. And then on our train back up, it'll be like a long ride to the river. So, we'll only get through this village, but it's also like a perfect easy way for us to ride. Perfect. Oh, is that what the tree you're talking about? Because this is like so well cared for here. That's a whole thing. Jail 40 goes this way and then all the way up to where the light is. Unused kind of road gate is and then all the way down the cabin flat road that we parked on or we're going to take. Oh, you know, apparently you know Sparky. He's like, this is not correct. So, if you went up that way you'd be a little bit longer, I believe, but this is the most beautiful line. It's just such a gorgeous train. Oh, yeah. You're ready, Spark. He's like, let me head on. Okay. They're really big strided across the terrain. Like it's really reach for it. Reach for it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't need to camera through here. I was like, 'cause they're quite good, but they're not ready to jump. Okay, let me grab onto everything again. Hello. Is that fun, Sparky? That little breath. It's crazy they can just canner on the rocks like our horses would be lame at the walk at this Yeah, I saw he has pads behind Yeah Yeah Thank you just so beautifully But again, that's diet and conditioning and genetics and like It's one of the great things about our drylops is that that you know Hardens and beat up, but then the first half year of being here. Yeah, totally. You're getting a much harder soul Yeah Oh That was that fun Sparks The bridge is going to be a little slick Contact just to help the balance of it that mud stills over the edge You got it What a star It's hard carrying up and down hills. This is your body Yeah, and they just take their way around this little ravine. Yep. Yeah, I was like, I'll just trust them They know this better than I do Just love her dog Yeah, and it's such a good light Just it's a come out here and do this. Yeah, and I'm like Kind of that feedback like we're still lucky to have to this is and then they're and then you know Like they're lucky to be here. Yeah, and you know, it's kind of like a it's a dual trade If I play a small part in my computer You know giving that and I get to see on after like you're moving up here and like are they common? Yeah, how happy they are and what it is for their owners to like Horses change life changes. Yeah, who you are as a person in a really palpable case. Yeah And I do I really believe that like one horses meet their person they get prettier I know that's like not like Science, but like you can tell when a horse has this person cuz they're so pretty They glow Yeah, yeah You're both winners I can get into this walking horse lifestyle Strange Yeah, I hear Yeah, but it adds like in my car You know You're like faster on the horses , but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it. Perfect , yeah, yeah This is just an experiment and I wanted and I see the next two days , but also like the casual side of things to it's like yeah, we're just here for a fun show on the day , but I'm just having fun 16 or 17 My boss I worked at a time store Made someone to ride her like steady Eddie versus you know reasonable time Yeah, yeah Several times. Oh, that's awesome I haven't done any since I was a kid If they're so great, I just I love the philosophy of Which is like it's a hidden time yeah, you don't know you just like go out and ride well Yep Okay, even if you just like blaze it and don't get a rivet like you'd find so Amazing I think like we're so siloed as a horse community and it's like I I really want to like Doing our like live podcast and stuff like I want to just start bringing more people, you know together and learn from each other the care Yeah, and that's what I love about going to see different places and try on is like it's everybody Everybody Oh Sparky's having a grass about coming out here so happy Yeah I'm coming up next we have snack time here's your trailer. 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What if your daughter could wake up every morning, walk to the barn, ride her own horse, go to class and do it all over again in the mountains of Pennsylvania, surrounded by girls who love horses as much as she does. That's the Greer school. Since 1853, Greer has been the destination for young women who are serious about riding and serious about becoming the best version of themselves. Experience Hunter, jumper, dressage, and western riding in world class facilities with 65 horses and a community that gets it. Academic excellence in an all-girls environment and horses every single day. Learn more at Greer.org. That's g-r-i-e-r.org. Greer school where riders become leaders. In this portion of the podcast, I'm joined in-person on-site at Awesome Mountain Preserve, again with Lila Kilby and with Trainor Kat Markham. Welcome to the podcast. We are live here from the barn in Awesome Mountain. And there is actively barn stuff happening, so if you hear barn noises, we got a lot going on. We have moved these out a while ago. Like they do. The bagel was to be on the podcast. So does Gauze. We got lots of hobbies running around here in the barn aisle. We got two horses. What, who's completely backwards that we just. We tried putting rocket chairs in the front of us. He said, "I've never seen that before." He said, "I've never seen a rocket chair in the aisle." So we're trying something new with the podcast, and it's a little half hazard here. So we love it. So Kat, you're one of the trainers here. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like coming up on the mountain and kind of how your role works with integrating with everyone, and I think this is such a great place because it is. So multidisciplinary, and we talk a lot on the podcast about how siloed or questioning community is, and this place is certainly not siloed. There are a lot of people doing a lot of different types of riding, different types of horses, and really kind of seamlessly. It seems integrating different belief systems and the organization and their training to find results. Yeah, and everyone feeds off of one another too. What somebody brings into the barn, somebody else picks up on, and it's very integrated. I was invited to come up here and start working with Rio, actually, a year and a half ago now. It does not feel that long. Being a dressage writer, his owner, rides dressage. So I came up and started exercising him, and it was kind of, you know, I was the only one in the barn besides Lila at the time, because it was in February. And then now, I feel like the community has just grown a whole lot. There's a lot more people that own horses and super active, and everyone is just super nice and very inviting, and a lot of people are very interested in riding on the trails. Someone to do working at. We also have another trainer that comes up once a week, and he's Megan Malone, and she does working at Equith with everyone. And yeah, it's just a great community to be a part of. Yeah, it's a great balance. I really, I very much appreciate it, thank you. You know, when Kat came in for Rio at the very beginning, he had had a lot of time off, which was kind of sitting in the field in between jobs, and his owner doesn't live here, you're around. So we were kind of looking for someone that could kind of get him back to shape and ready for the season, and Kat did such an amazing job, that I think everyone else, the next winter, was like, "Sign me up." You know, it's so great. Because we do, we're a seasonal membership to some extent, but the horses live here, you're around. And it's just been so great to have someone that can come in and keep them all not just like, "Oh, they get ridden for 30 minutes, so they're not sitting in the stall." It's like biomechanics and they're balanced, and like really what they're doing with their body. And I think our horse owners have seen incredible improvements in their horses once they kind of sign up for that, and are like, "Oh, that's great. Now I kind of come back to town and my horse is ready to go, and he's not as a barn sower, and you know, all of these great things that come from having a good trainer. Oh. (laughter) There's so many horses here that are bred for so many different purposes, and very different confirmation. And so they all need different things, and you know, like, like barriers have to adapt to what kind of barn and what kind of purpose every horse is doing, how you ride and how you train them. You know, the principles of training are the same. Across the disciplines, we don't need to be siloed over that. But when you talk, when you make a plan for a specific horse, and think about what they can do, and their progression towards the end goal, how do you bring in confirmation in biomechanics, working history, you know, horses are like a lot of us, you know, sighted, right handed. Yeah. I mean, asymmetries are common in all living creatures, especially horses. So what I do outside of Balsam is I do equine bodywork, as well, and PEMF therapy. And I work with a lot of rehab horses. So a lot of like the basics to what I do with the horses here are simply balancing, looking to see which foot lands heavier than the other one, if they're slightly bent to one side, more than the other, and just starting to help guide their bodies to start becoming straighter, so that they're equally strengthening both their right and their left, which also the diagonals. And just also helping them be calm, like relaxation is super important to all of that, getting them to work through their back, activate their hindquarters, because there's a lot of big hills here on the trails, which almost every single person has a horse here, they're a big trail rider. That's definitely part of like the draw of this beautiful farm on top of the mountain. So helping a horse become strong, and equally on each diagonal helps them be able to tackle some of these hills, and go up the hills, and down them with a lot more balance, and no injuries. So how are you evaluating the symmetries at groundwork? Is it riding them and feeling what's kind of your process or looking for which hubs are landing on maybe harder or which ways they want to turn or how they do or go? I start with every horse on the ground. I always put eyes on them. It starts from me having them in the stall, the wash rack, grooming them, and seeing which foot they're placing forward, if they're perching over their front legs, if they're resting a hind leg on a wall, and starting from there, which grooming is a very important part of starting to take in how a horse just uses their body at rest, and then before I ride any horse, we're in the arena. I work from the ground sometimes, depending on the horse, it's one session on the ground. Sometimes it's multiple sessions on the ground. When I first started working with Rio, I don't even think I wrote them for almost a month. Maybe. He was very unbalanced, but she's a very big horse, and so almost like the bigger the horse is when they're out of shape, the bigger the asymmetries and that. Every horse that I have begun to work with, I do start from the ground, and then watching them move on a circle, move on a straight line, starting to ask them for halts, and have it be a balanced halt, where they're not falling forward on the forehand, and starting to get them to think about their hindquarters a little more, because a lot of times horses do not, especially if they're very forward, and just been ridden. Some of the horses that are here have mainly been ridden and not had a lot of groundwork. So then I come in and they think I'm crazy, but then they end up liking it. And how can you teach your horses to use their bodies and their posture, and think about their own proprioception on the ground? I mean, there's many, many different ways. One of the most simple ones that I like to do is to add a standstill, and asking for the horse to be relaxed and not bracing through the base of his neck, and then starting to ask for almost a, like a step backwards, but not quite, just a shifting of the weight, and a lot of times they go from either being perched over their front legs, or standing with a very base narrow stance, to taking that wider, stacking their joints above each other, and starting to place their weight. and taking a more square stance. That's a very, very simple way. And a lot of horses have a lot of releases in just doing that, taking their mind off of their forehand and starting to activate their hind end. - And one of those releases look like for people who might not be familiar. - They drop their heads. They get a very gentle look in their eye. They start licking and chewing a lot of horses. If they're holding a lot of tension through their thoracic sling, which are typically the horses that have that braced base of their neck, they'll start to yawn a lot of times. And it's because the muscles are starting to elevate the rib cage up through the scapulas and it's almost like someone going from being hunched over to standing up and taking a deep breath and it feels really good. - So, you talked about building up hind end and the main quarter muscle is water. Some of the exercises you're doing, how are you thinking about that on the ground and in the cell? - Asking for a lot of yielding of the shoulders, so they start to think about taking weight behind because in order to free up the shoulders, they have to start rocking their weight back and having it start to be even. And then also along with yielding the hunches, but always in a gentle format, asking for one or two steps. I don't wanna overexert a horse that's never even thought about those things and then be constantly asking every single step. It's a very gentle process of asking for a little bit and then letting them go back to their neutral and then asking for a little bit more and then transitions a lot. I'm a huge fan of transitions. - I had to cover my, I just, I had like a thought that I was like, I gotta make sure I say that or I'll do that. - But I do, I think that's really interesting kind of in launching cat work and like the great work she's done with the horses in here is, I think a lot of people would find it really surprising how not high energy and explosives all of this starts out. Like it's all this really subtle stuff that happens at the very beginning and you know, I had one owner where I kind of was like, hey, like there's this great, you know, cat's been amazing. She's worked on a couple horses in the barn. You know, I think your horse could really benefit and get it some exercise in. And after like cats first couple reports, the owner was like, well, it says they're just like walking around on the ground and like, I wanted my horse to like work out and like, you know, get sweaty and all that kind of stuff and I had to tell them like, like this is all part of the process and we will get there. But I think it like kind of really speaks to kind of a horse first approach that cat has of like, and you know, it's not here to be hard on them. It's here to build them and to strengthen them. And you can get your horse really fit and forward and moving, but if you skip those kind of slow boring first steps, you know, you're not setting them up for as much success. And so I really like watching that. And like as a barn manager who's like kind of ultimately, you know, watching all of the horses and all of their journeys, I really like having a trainer like that in the barn. I feel very comfortable, you know, with her. And you know, it's so nice to have as like part of the team of someone who's got that approach. - You mentioned the word boring and I was thinking of it too. Like these are the steps that like a lot of people have got some blotters. (laughing) - Victory. You know, I think a lot of people learning the nuance and how subtle these changes are in the house subtle. Like it is, you know, breathing and noticing when your horse is yawned and noticing when they look at their lips. You know, these are all such like subtle things and they both are like take a long time to learn and to turn yourself to notice and a ton of repetition. And you know, is I guess my question is like in getting people interested in this sport, I think one of the most affordable ways to get people interested in this sport, we talk about accessibility and affordability is to get people going on groundwork. But as you said, like it's easy to have people not understand the quote unquote value with that. And all the horse people know the value of the walk and how much more walking all of our horses need all the time. You know, can you talk about like how we kind of bring these concepts to the public more in a way that yeah, that they feel value or feel that interest. I think all of us find this to be very satisfying work and I think, you know, I'm just as satisfied with like an incredible groundwork session with a horse as riding. But I get it to people who don't understand this and are still learning and it's so nuanced. You know, it's like in the Hunters, you know, if you don't know what you're looking at, you can't tell the difference between an 82 and an 88 and then you sit there and say the Hunters are boring. But you're like, no, no, just like get into it and it's super interesting. How do we get people over that kind of hump or encourage them or get more people involved and you have been here many lifelong horse owners who, you know, need the value explain to them and then when the value is explained to them, they're completely onboard. - I find that it's a lot of horse owners that start, you know, not always, but a lot of times like my clients that find me and I start to teach them, they're like, I'm having this performance issue and then just starting to talk about biomechanics and doing some simple things, like in hand from the ground and showing them how their horse is moving and then asking their horse to take one or two steps in a different way. And it like is people that have been doing horses for years and years and they get their minds blown because all of a sudden this performance issue, they were having with their horse, they're sometimes seeing a huge change maybe being able to do this thing. Like I had a woman the other day she was struggling with the left lead canner and it was a very simple, we worked on walk leg yields, you know, and then started to ask for more, anyways. She just, it excites people and they're like, oh, this is the missing link 'cause so many people and everyone are started, you know, of like the whole goal is to ride your horse, but there's so much more to it. If you wanna do it long-term and if you wanna prevent injury and which horses like to injure themselves. We all know that. So I think that gets people really excited as if they start to have like an issue with something and then they come to somebody that does have biomechanics background and then they start to see that issue dissipate and go away. - Yeah, and I think it's really interesting. We've talked a lot about kind of like the different journeys people go on and getting people into the horse world and access to information and, you know, what that looks like. And I think more and more, it's exciting to see that people are talking about, you know, groundwork, horsemanship, biomechanics, unless like, you know, they're competition goals and whether you're using all of those things to get to a competition goal or just to have a really healthy trail horse that can go beyond the trails until they're 25 and thrive and be comfortable and balanced and not hurt themselves. I think more and more people are realizing that, but it is tough to kind of get into it. Like if you, you know, you can go to a lesson barn and learn how to walk trot canter, but it's hard to find someone to train you on biomechanics. So I think that's a big kind of part of it is kind of getting accessibility of information out there, which I think is kind of really the next step we're gonna have to see. - I wrote about this a little bit, but this winter I was at my friend's house and we finished at the barn early and, you know, horse people early, like 4.30 (laughs) and after dinner, we were like talking about if we wanted to watch a movie or something and she was like, "Oh my God, this like outtake "some fuck for it or a big clinics DVD." You wanna watch it? I was like, "Absolutely, 100 percent." And what was, like the videos I've watched have been like of him doing clinics and he's amazing in his body language and the way he, you know, moves his hips and turns things, you know, turns everything at just the slightest angles, but it's like, it's almost so well done that you don't know what he's doing. But because this is an outtakes DVD, it showed all the other people the clinic trying to make him (laughs) and trying to do all the exercises. - This is great. (laughs) - But he would like show them how to do something. Oh, we watch like 10 hours of this. (laughs) - I have that, I have that box up. (laughs) - And so he would do something and just like, like a professional, right? Like, absolutely perfect. And like, with these horses, he doesn't know. And like, you know, his hips are angled and he's moving his body, he's just like a liquid, like moving around the horse and everything is so timed and like the rope and like, precision. And these lifelong horse people, like very horse people, I'm sure. They would come out there at the clinic to learn. And this is like, it was hated like, 2010 or something. So long before social media, no one's so conscious that they might be giving a video. You know, today it would be so performative. (laughs) - In this video, and then there's just like, you watch them and you're like, oh my gosh, and the ropes go with, you know, - The Rock Band, this is a huge, my turn. the hips to the right direction, the feet are for it. And you're like, but I actually, like, funnest side. I learned so much more from watching people do it wrong. In a lot of ways, and I learned from watching him do it. You know, when I know that, like, kind of sounds crazy, but I think like when you really watch, like, you know, when you watch all day on the Hunters, you know, we talk about track and pace all the time, and track and pace, and it's all about, okay, like, that's great. Like, we can be thrilled and preach to and all that. If you sit at the Hunters ring all day, you will watch people all the way long up their quarters and track and shape up that line. And like, it has so much more impact in a lot of ways because it's like, it's the purpose of what we're doing comes through. And then you watch these horses. When the people aren't shaped correctly, and their body's not doing the right thing. You watch their, you watch the biomechanics, you watch the pole come up, you watch the horses be like, "What are you doing?" And like, brace themselves. And you watch the horse not relax. And I think, like, we almost don't talk about like, like, we talk about bad groundwork. Like, we talk about, you know, other things. Oh, like, you know, the horse is bad or lunging is evil. Or, you know, like, we make all these, like, just grand sweeping statements. And I think we like, kind of miss how interesting, like, leading a horse is. But on the flip side, if we admit that leading a horse is that important and that's serious, then we would need, like, qualified staff to do every little piece of everything. And I'm not sure if that's a jump, but the horse community at large is, like, willing to make it to. Yeah, and I think it's really interesting. It's something like, kind of, myself, and I talk about, you know, here in the barn. I say, you know, I was like, we aren't trainers. We're not here to be, like, training horses day-to-day. That's not our purview. I was like, but it is our job to, you know, maintain them. And maybe slightly improve them. And not, you know, even something as simple as, you know, I talk about stuff. I was like, when you're feeling, hey, nets, they don't get to eat out of your hands while you're standing there. Like, your bubble is your bubble. And, you know, and all of that kind of stuff, I think is so critically important to having a horse that has a healthy relationship with people. And it's really easy, kind of, to want to become best friends with our horses, but you can't support them sometimes if you're afraid of hurting their feelings. And so that's something, you know, like I said, like, we have such a wonderful barn of like, horse mums who, like, love their babies. But I do joke sometimes. I'm like, it's really nice, like, in the winter, when all, like, the mums kind of go away for a little bit. I was like, oh, the horses get much more well-mannered all of them. (laughing) When they're not getting their daily treats and everything. So I was like, it is a fun balance of like, you know, every time you're working with them, even if it's just new being them from their padded to their stall, it's a training session. Like, it is something you are, like, you are having a conversation, your horse is learning something from that. And maybe all that's learning is that things have stayed the same, but you can learn some bad things just in your daily walks. (laughing) - Every time you handle a horse, it is a training session. Whether it's from the ground, riding, anything. So, yeah. And back to talking about, like, biomechanics. I often tell a lot of my clients, I'm like, and we're gonna play Twister now. Like, just like, like, being like, we're mixing everything up that you're doing. And it's really funny, 'cause it's people forgetting like, what part of their body is their left side and their right side. (laughing) - Yeah, like it's out, we can all work on our own, like, proprioception. Like, I don't think about like, many parts of my body. (laughing) We're doing it later. - And your horse's still, like, they just start existing, which is great. It means they're comfortable and their skin do exist, but also, you know, they need to, be thinking about where everything goes and how it lands. And I also think, like, a lot of groundwork is about teaching a horse to, like, for them to have control over their body and where they're putting things. And for them, teaching them to have the understanding to help keep themselves sound, help put their body in the right position. Can you talk about, like, kind of the confidence that comes in the horses with the independence and understanding how they can relax themselves and how they can, you know, we, you talked about, breathing, you know, and opening up their sternum. You know, I think, I think one of the sides that people don't see is, like, if you do good groundwork, you're training your horse how to have that release on their own and their solid themselves and empathic by themselves without you. - Absolutely. And, you know, a lot of times people, they want to help fix, like, their horse spooking or having anxiety or separation anxiety or, you know, being barnsour. And a lot of that does come with, like, a strong and confident body. I don't ever really try to address that specifically with some of the horses that I do work with. It just comes naturally because as the horse starts to gain confidence in his own body, he starts to gain confidence everywhere throughout everything. So the anxiety starts to go away if it was present. - Kind of to that, like, Ryo, who we've talked about a little bit here. - He's shaking again. - He's very good tricker. - He's like, "Yeah." - He just had to work out. - He was sweaty. - But he's a great example of, like, that kind of confidence in the body. So when we got him in the fall and his owner wrote in a couple of times in, like, the two months, you know, that she was here before she was found for the season, she tried to ride him away from the barn on his own or across the creek on his own. And he bolted, you know, he wasn't horrific, but he was like, "Absolutely not, I don't do that. I don't ride off from the barn on them." And we're like, "Oh, okay, we kind of only know this horse a couple months and we'll work on this and get back to it." And then Cat worked with him in the off season and did no trail riding. Like, it was purely, like, arena, you know, groundwork, strengthening work. And then when his owner came back to town, she, like, on, like, her first week back, rode him off on the trail on his own without even, like, thinking about it. He didn't blink and he went and he was totally fine. And all that changed was he was stronger in his body and that, but it wasn't that we had trained for solo rides. We just, you know, we, you know, it was all tough. (laughs) It was just, I'm strengthening him, I'm making him feel better. - And now he's-- - He never came at him too. - Yeah, and I was like, and, you know, and now he feels better. And he can do these things that made him nervous before. So, but it's kind of like, it's looking for that root base of, you know, it's like if there's spooky suddenly, you know, addressing that, like, that could be a symmetric issue or that could be something else. And it's not necessarily, like, you need to address the spooky, and you need to address it with what is, you know, the cause-- - What's the cause? - The root cause, yeah, exactly. And I, you know, we were talking yesterday about, you know, the old adogen loading problem is a leading problem. And like, if you're not leading your horse correctly, and your horse doesn't understand your commands, walking down the barn aisle, and that's where every time you walk out of the paddock and come back, it's a training session. You are taking your horse to the cross size or taking them to the wash doll, like, that has as much to do with loading on the trailer as practicing loading. - Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to talk a little bit about just kind of the, being here at Balsam and kind of the collaborative experience and I think, you know, one of the things that's been so cool is, I think I know she was known for being a little-- I mean, part of why we're so siloed among the disciplines is people have gotten territory all over the years. I think that's a fair statement. And they haven't been curious and inquisitive to new things, quite to maybe a helpful degree for their horses. Can you talk about kind of your collaborative environment here and working together with all the professionals and what it's been like for you to come in and have this team? And everyone at this farm seems to get along really well, which is a cool dynamic to be part of. - Absolutely. I think a lot of that has to do with Lyle and her openness to like all these different disciplines, whether it's like natural horsemanship, to walking horse, to like, you know, jumping, up a couple of hundred jumpers, and then dressage. And she just makes this environment so warm and welcoming. And it's never about like, like, competition. It's like, all right, who wants to do what and grow from there? And yeah, I have to say, that has a lot to do with you. That's the energy you set here and 100%. - And I was like, thank you. You know, it's something I think from a young age in the horse world kind of recognized that that, you know, the competitive spirit is good in terms of, you know, wanting to, you know, be better than you were the day before. But I will say, and my family will agree, I am like the least competitive person in the world. I once cried because I like beat someone in the tennis tournament when I was 13. I like crying for like two days. And I was like, oh, my God. (laughing) And I'm like, I'm anti-competitive almost. But I think what that kind of meant, what that kind of turned me into is this person who like, I just want, I want to be able to like build on things and I don't really kind of care what the label that that came from is, I don't care if it's a natural horsemanship thing or a geosage thing or a western thing or a walking horse thing. I'm like, if it's something that can benefit, like my riders, my horses, my team, you know, I just, you know, I don't care. I think there's value and being really open to a lot of different you just information. And it is tough because I think I think a lot of what kind of has happened in the horse world is we want to do things right. I think everyone has this huge pressure like that they feel like they have to do the right thing for their horse. And what they'll do is they'll go to like, you know, a single trainer or a single barn and they're like, that looks good. And so I'm just going to fully commit to like just this. And I think this is just like my one winning formula. And then I'll just never deviate. And so I think having like I said, just open, you know, lines of communication between trainers and failures in your vets and just pulling from everything to try to see like, you know, it's all about just having a really big toolkit. And you know, it won't always work for each horse. Like one thing won't work for all, you know, 18 horses we have in this barn. So I always am looking for, you know, just the next thing to kind of know how to do to have a trip to have something that might help the next horse. So I think that's kind of where we come from. And we're really lucky. Like our borders and Kakana test of this, like our horse owners here are all so heavily invested in their horses, just like well-being. And they're very easy to talk to like what you say. Like, hey, I think this is something your horse could help like use. They're like, do it. Which is my favorite part about my job is that I have really supportive owners that are encouraging of like me and the team of professionals that we work with to like be able to go after things with their horses. And it makes it really fun. In the equine world, every four-legged friend matters. That's why horse owners and their agents trust Great American. One of the world's leading providers of equine mortality insurance. From the barn to the show ring, we're here to help protect your horse farm and future through every stride. With one of the most comprehensive and unique product portfolios of the industry, Great American is more than insurance, where you're ally on the ride. Your horse works hard. Shouldn't the recovery keep up? Magnaway Penth Therapy goes deep in the muscle, cuts inflammation, and gets your horse back into the show ring faster. To your beings, don't wait around, feel good, and neither should yours. 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