Lifting weights - cradle to grave.

Welcome to the Docs Who Lift podcast where we distill and simplify the complexities of a healthy lifestyle, exercise, medicine and weight loss. We're excited to bring you a podcast that's a prescription for clinical practice, scientific recommendations and just real life. This is the Docs Who Lift podcast. Welcome back to the Docs Who Lift podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Spencer Ndulski. I got my co-host, Dr. Carl Ndulski Jr., and we got a special guest here. Mr. Is a doctor yet? No, not yet. Dante Birx. Dante Birx. Welcome to the show. Today we're going to be talking about one of our favorite things, which is lifting weights, but exercising in general in children, which is something we've been passionate about. My brother and I have a YouTube video out there. We talked about it before, of us working out when we were young. My brother had abs in utero. And then you can see he's pretty jacked as like a fifth grader or something like that. I don't remember how old he was. Yeah, and that kind of comes around to why Dante is someone I wanted to have on this podcast. So just a quick little nugget about Dante, and then I want him to tell his story. So you played football, went to high school in our neck of the woods, Whitehall High School, and they're really good in the Muskegon area. Went on to play football at Wayne State, which is a D2 school. And then you transferred to Alma and graduated from there? Yes, sir. And then he graduated with an exercise physiology degree. He's certified through the NASM, even has CrossFit Level 1 certification, and does a lot of coaching for football. He's right now, he's working with Central Michigan Football and one of the local high schools up there. And I met him because we recently had a whole new change in our high schools football coaching program. Our new high school football coach was actually, was he a grad assistant Spencer when you were in high school? Right after I graduated, Coach Pat Collins was around. He was our safety coach. He was our DB coach. And so yeah, we should probably get him on the podcast sometime and have some fun. But he's an awesome guy, brings great positivity to our area. You know, the kids are excited. And this past summer, and we don't have to get into the weeds of the geography and logistics of what happened, Dante. But they, the plan was to have Dante come on and be one of our coaches and also help out with our strength program. And when you get to see a picture of him, you'll know why is a freaking stud. And so I was all excited, of course, because I'm just, you know, I love that stuff. And obviously I have a 10 year old son who's into wrestling and football and stuff. And so I just happened to, it was during our football camp, right? When I saw you, I was like, that's got to be that guy. And I went over, we walked back to the weight room and he was doing a great job of helping some of the high school kids lift weights. And I was just up there doing a little bit. And then what happened was they had a, they had like a few weeks of like a kid's strength training camp, essentially. So of course my 10 year old son, who's already a little bit of a little meathead, got to go and do it. And then they asked you to do, was it just one week or something? Just out of, I can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was that week that I, you know, had your, yeah, yeah. It was kind of when you were transitioning out. Yeah. And so, you know, Spencer knows Trey, my 10 year old. And, you know, he's a smart kid, likes, you know, likes to work out with everybody other than me to some degree. But he, he doesn't sugarcoat anything. He's like, he's like young Sheldon on the, on the show. He will give it to anybody straight. And so if he is excited and happy about something, he'll let you know. And if it's not, if he's not whatever he doesn't say anything, but if something's wrong, he'll let you know too. He doesn't care. And, and when after he got done working out with you, he was all excited. And I think I told you that he was like, Oh my God. First of all, I don't know many guys that have bigger muscles than you, but coach Dante does. And, and I was like, well, what the hell, man? And then, and then he's like, he's awesome. I mean, he was just so pumped up. And so I, you know, he doesn't realize this exactly yet. Someday I'll tell him, but like, I really trust his impression because it's, it's always good. It's genuine. It's genuine. Yeah. Because it's so genuine. And so I was like, yeah, I was, I was so happy. And then of course I was so disappointed that you had to go. And this just had to do with geographical logistics. You know, sometimes things don't work out, but, but then we grew up lifting weights. And, and I was a little guy like Trey. And, but I was all into lifting weights with my dad. Spencer kind of followed along after us. Of course he ended up being tall. I'm short. So naturally throughout my whole life, people are like, oh, lifting weights made you short. I'm like, no, I was short anyways, whatever. Oh my God. So there've been all these myths, but as the docs who lift and we deal with all these, you know, really diseases that could be at least somewhat mitigated. If people would work out when they're little kids all the way through life. We absolutely are advocates of it. And there just happened to be some publications recently that I told you about before that we started. Just recently, the thing that got me excited was the, the British Journal of Sports Medicine. They, they published this thing on an infographic, infographic on the mythology of youth resistance trading. The myth that's, that it stunts your bone growth. There's no data to support that, that it's only for athletes. Obviously we're going to talk about sports and stuff, but it's not just for athletes. In fact, that's why we push it, right? Yep. And, you know, talking about waiting till you're 12 years old. That has nothing to do with anything that anybody can think of that girls get bulky. Oh my God. That doesn't happen, right? And, and then it's unsafe for you. So those are all myths. We want everyone to work out and we just wanted to learn a little bit more about your experience and how you go about it. Cause you obviously do a great job with the little kids, but you also take care of the adolescents playing football, other sports and college athletes. The whole spectrum from little bitty kids to adolescents. So just, yeah, tell us a little bit about your story, man. So young, yeah, like how young are the kids that you're working with and whatever. Yeah. So, well, first of all, my backstory was I actually was not into lifting growing up. I was very pudgy overweight. My family, I mean, we just ate, you know, and what got me into lifting actually was my cousins. So they were more, they were more into the, they wanted to be fit. So they were like, you know, but we didn't have the resources. So we created makeshift benches out of our couch, some broomsticks, different, you know, whatever we could find, lift, we lifted cinder blocks. And I dreaded it. I hate it. I'm like, bro, this is dumb. Like we should be playing basketball. But it kind of started to spark the interest because I hate it getting beat up by them. I said, so obviously something that, obviously something is working for them. So, but it really still didn't take off or really interest me until probably junior high. I had a gym teacher who told me, if you want to be great, you got to lift weight. I said, you know what, I'll try it. So, um, began lifting weights and I think it was going into senior, no, going into freshman year of high school. I stayed in the house. I did push-ups, sit-ups. I watched a Herschel Walker. I think it was documentary. Oh man. My dad would love. We used to talk about that, the Herschel Walker workout. Remember, Spence? Yeah, of course. And try to just do that to a T. I ate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, drank milk. Um, I really just like, I'm going to be physically fit now. Um, and so when I left from eighth grade, going to ninth grade, I was 185 pounds, but I think I was pretty solid. Wow. And it was just amazing from there. And then that's kind of when the interest of lifting kind of took off because now I'm in high school. I'm playing JV. I'm playing varsity. Um, and you just realize, wow, this stuff actually matters. Um, and then obviously have an opportunity to go play in college. I found also that, you know, through injuries and not being able to play as much. I found that I liked it to lift more anyways. Um, so my excitement went from being about football to being about in shape. So I would go to practice, do our team lift and then go back to gym at the rec center afterwards. Just crazy stuff. Um, yeah, I know. And, and even during that, um, I got, uh, certified and it is really hard to spark my interest. So then after COVID and everything went down, got into helping out with like the youth. Um, so I've worked with kids, um, as young as seven. Um, and obviously I've also worked with the elderly as well. Um, but right now, um, I'm working with primarily junior high kids through collegiate athletes. Um, so that's kids that have never seen a weight. And then there's kids that are at the highest level of college football, which is, you know, division one. So what's your approach with the young kids? Like what do you, what do you do? So yeah, like someone comes in, that's older, you know, you can start showing them all the different things. What do you do with a kid? Do you just, same thing, but just at a lower level or how do you do it? No. So that's one of the biggest myths too is that you treat children like little adults and, but they're not, you know, so a lot of times, depending on the age, um, the first thing that I try to establish is play. Um, allowing them to have fun, have a, have kind of, kind of have an objective, but not really because a lot of times at that age, up until puberty, um, really any adaptation is going to be just neural, you know, just them being more coordinated and just like learning how their body works. So I'm not focused too much on, you know, like I see stuff on Instagram and stuff where do they have an eight year old run with these resistant bands and speed. You know, and it's like, that's not necessary right now. Um, the biggest thing is like for me, um, even at the junior high that I'm at right now, at fifth grade, as young as fifth grade, as well as eighth grade. So the fifth graders and below, we focus more on like dodgeball and tag and different things like that where it may not seem like a training, but it is because it's encompassing a lot of modalities of movement. So their agility, their sprinting, their ability to react. And that's what I first established with someone that's very young. It's just their ability to just be able to be active and move. So they're like, but coach Dante, we want arms like you. Yeah. And it's funny because they'll say and they'll try to, you know, and I tell them, you know, if you want the ability to put on muscle like this, you have to first know how to move the muscles that it requires. And if they can't, you know what I'm saying? And if they can't do a chin up, if they can't do some of the simplistic things, then really over time, me teaching them how to do a bicep curl is not going to do much for them. Yeah. So then how do you progress then? Yeah. How do you progress then? Yeah. So how about like starting, you know, like pull-ups, of course, you know, going back to when we were little, I mean, I was, yeah, we were doing pull-ups and we had a little machine, we had an old universal machine. That's what I started lifting on when I was like eight years old. And so, you know, it's pretty simple. You know, it's pretty basic, you know, pushing pull-ups and, you know, some leg exercises that my dad helped me do. And ultimately we did free weights. And that's kind of what I've done with Trey to some degree. And yeah, he and we are probably more advanced than most people. But yeah, I mean, how would you kind of take that approach with the little kids who now, okay, now they got some basic movements and they do. They want to learn the basic resistance training stuff. So, I mean, even with like the high school that I'm working with now, for example, last year we were two and seven and guys couldn't do five pull-ups. They couldn't do 10 push-ups. It was bad and I'm not going to blame, you know, the school, but it was like the kids just wasn't exposed to that like over time. So, the first thing I did was the ones that could do pull-ups, they were able to then do them. But even the ones that couldn't, and now the athletes that I work with in the junior high and younger, the first thing we began off with is being able to hang and just hang and be able to hold your body weight up there. Because if you can't hold yourself up there, you can't pull yourself up there. And then once they learn how to hang, then we go into more of an active hang. So now we're engaging, you know, different muscles to keep them not just hanging just, you know, nearly but actually hanging with some stability to it. And I think for me and for others, we grew up on the monkey bars and monkey bars are a segue to you being able to do a pull-up or a chin-up. Because you're holding yourself and then you start to integrate the movement with it. So then that way, when you get to your high high school, all it is now is just a straight-up line. But kids nowadays don't do the monkey bars and the jungle gyms and stuff now. That's an interesting point because I'll tell you what, that's something, for whatever reason, Trey has always been into. And then yeah, now he can, you know, he's 10 years old and he can crank out tons of pull-ups and stuff. And I've always kind of, you know, I always figured that I'm like, "Oh man, he's playing on the monkey bars, but he's really working out. He doesn't even know it." So one thing, you know, like I said, we started off like on the universal machine and I don't even really remember when I really started like free weight type stuff. Things are, and so I'm a big fan, Spencer, I think, and I are big fans of, you know, kids slash even the elderly or people that don't really know what they're doing to start with like these real basic machines. I'm all about fundamentals, but I think sports training has evolved, and I told you I was going to maybe make a joke about this. I like to think that you and I are like in the same age range. It turns out that might not be true because you just graduated in 2020 and I graduated in 2023 from Michigan State. So anyways, but things have evolved and there's definitely more, I don't know what I would call it, Spencer, like dynamic training now, which seems really good, like, but it also, it's almost a little out of my area of experience and expertise. So how to develop kids to that, because to me that does potentially maybe increase risk of injury if you don't really do it right. You know, like get on a universal machine and doing some bench press. I don't think it's almost impossible to get hurt unless you don't warm up and try to like max out or something. So so what I don't know what are your thoughts kind of balancing those two things and how to develop kids that way? I don't know. I think, you know, for me and from anything I've ever read and anyone that I've ever learned from is the same thing. Whether you're eight years old or 18 or beyond, if you have improper programming, injury is inevitable. So for me, I'm not going to, and any good coach should not progress a kid to a more dynamic movement, whether it's a hand clean, a snatch, even some plyometric stuff, until they've established fundamental basics. And so, you know, like I said, I see stuff all the time where, you know, even like collegiate athletes doing a hand clean or a power clean in the form is terrible. Like they may be able to muscle through it and get it up something with like a youth athlete. But over time, that improper form causes stress on areas that it shouldn't, and that will eventually lead to an injury. So it's just about proper programming. And that's the overarching theme of all of this. If you're training youth, you have to be able to demonstrate the movement properly for them. And then at the same time, have the the progressions to get to that point, which is what CrossFit has taught me too. CrossFit gets this bad rep of having just poor movement, but in reality, it's bad coaching. It's not bad, you know, it's not bad movement. So having the progressions to certain things, whether it's a squat or it's an overhead squat or it's a pull up, whatever, whatever, these things matter, especially in the youth level. Yeah, I mean, I did, I just, in middle school, I started doing tons and tons of push-ups kind of similarly. And then it wasn't till like later in middle school, early high school, where I got really into the free weights, I think, when I remember. So I think that's a good, is Trey doing dodgeball now? Should we get him in? Yeah, I mean, yeah, the thing is with Trey, I mean, he's kind of at a different level. I mean, you know, Dante remembers, he just can do a lot of stuff, you know. And so what I do with Trey, because he's so strong, is I actually give him relatively heavy sort of free weights. And those are air quotes for it. Most people are listening to this. They can't see us. But I hold on to them because youth, like it's like the stability muscles. And, you know, and maybe the, you know, the people who have a PhD and like youth growth are going to think we're not saying the right terms. But, you know, he can essentially do dumbbell bench press with really heavy dumbbells, but I'm holding them in place for him. And then, and then, you know, he works with people like you or he goes to something called ETS. Are you familiar with that in West Michigan? I've heard of it. Okay. And, you know, and they don't, they don't push them with the weight, you know, they, but they really push the form, the mechanics and all that stuff. And so I kind of rely on them and then I, you know, and I don't mind spotting them for like a little bit heavy because I know he needs a little bit of some of that stimulus. Like you said, it's neuro, it's neuromuscular. So like when I was little, I wasn't gaining mass until I went through puberty, which is really like when I was like 16 years old. I was probably, you know, we're a little bit like bloomers, but, but I was pretty darn strong. But that was from like doing machine stuff where you don't even need a spot or necessarily or my dad would spot us for, for pull-ups. And so that's kind of what I do. And then let's see what else, I mean, yeah, they do body weight stuff. He can, I have all the little kids that are on his like football team do real basic like trap bar deadlifts so that I can really sort of see their form. And I never got into the, the cleans and stuff. And I saw you doing it that day with the high school kids. And, and I don't know if you can remember exactly, but our high school kids probably didn't really know what they were doing. They, there were some guys who are kind of strong and you did a great job at, you know, they were using a bar, which is hardly any weight and, and really critiquing their, their form, which of course is important for especially that type of lifting. It wasn't even just squatting where you can kind of say, okay, nice, good, square, you know, get level, whatever, keep your head up, all that stuff. So yeah, there's definitely like the spectrum of machines to the basic resistance training form to then really that dynamic sports stuff. So do you ever use machines to kind of get people started to get strong or not? Or is that kind of, we don't do that. I don't know. No, I mean, definitely. And, and so in patients, not patients, but in clients that I have that are older, I will definitely use more machine based activities because it allows them to not have to worry so much about stabilizing. And as you get older, there's a few things that decline very rapidly if they're not used, which is your power and your ability to be stable. So me having a grandma or grandpa do a dumbbell bench press, and they haven't worked both here a cuff muscle or chest muscle in decades, I'm sending them up for a tear of some sort. So getting them on a machine where it eliminates some of that ability to have to stabilize definitely helps them. I will use machine work for like higher reps, because if you fail on a machine, you're safe as opposed to failing on a back squat that you know, barbell back squat or bench press, you fill on those, you're going to get hurt. So I use those for clients that are looking for a hypertrophy goal primarily because the only focus now is just getting it done and then go to a failure stimulus or for people that have not trained in a while. That may not be able to do even their own body weight, not the machine as an external stimulus that they can still gain muscle, but in a safe way. Yeah, that's exactly how I see it. That's pretty much what that's one of the arguments I'll make during because I'm doing this debate on aerobic versus resistance training for fat loss and obesity management. And one of the issues is like barrier to entry and it's like these movements are complex. If people have never done a squat or deadlift and you know, even a bench press, it's kind of like throwing people and just like, all right, go do it without a trainer coach. It's kind of scary. So machines can basically help put them into the plane of motion and make sure that it doesn't fall in their face or they fall over. So I think that's a good practical. Yeah. And like you said, I mean, anybody can do a lightweight machine if they, you know, if they do it and follow directions and do it right. And that's another argument even for the little kids in the elderly is that, you know, it's lighter than body weight exercises. You know, people get scared of weights because they think it's heavy, but it doesn't have to be heavy. Machine weights, even, even, you know, free weights can be a lot lighter than body weight and you got to start somewhere. Right. So that's, yeah, that's an argument I make all the time. So that's, yeah, that's great. I often tell my, most of my patients, of course, they're not like young people trying to train for sports and I'm just trying to get them in the weight room. And I, I, I describe the planet fitness circuit. You know what I mean? All right. You do a pushing and then you do pulling and then the legs and then we go around and I'm like, you can get a great workout that way. And it's good for your health especially. So that's awesome. Cool. Any other, any other practical tidbits for, you know, I guess I'm going to name this podcast cradle, cradle to grave working out with Dante. Yeah. But it sounds like you have a lot of experience across the spectrum of patients, but any tidbits as you go from youth to like, you know, high school, college and then weekend warriors and adulthood. It sounds like the principles all kind of remain the same. You start off with movement patterns and then progress from there. Yeah. And I think that, you know, if we're looking at dealing with athletes, the, like I said, the first step is play. Like if, if you want your child or you want to develop a great athlete from a youth level all the way up through college and even to the professional ranks. The one thing that you also want to try to avoid is burnout and burnout happens when you're exposed to the same stimulus, in my opinion, without any reasoning behind it. So I know I had friends who played basketball, AAU, travel, the whole nine and not really realizing that they're, and maybe the parents even know this, but like they were doing these every weekend tournaments. This, this, this, and not realizing that it was to prep them for college. Now, where they always necessarily know, but it's the same thing that entails with lifting is that when you start off a child lifting, it has to be fun. It has to be engaging and it has to still entail the modalities that they'll use eventually down the road. Now, after they hit an age where they started to mature, that's where you can start kind of focusing in more specific tasks. So like maybe endurance first or hypertrophy and then strength and then and then power and power typically is like the last stage. Like when you get like 11th grade and beyond and maybe some freshmen are ready. It just depends on how you've laid the foundation early on. But once you get to those people always think, okay, I'm going to do power clean style and snatches. It's like, no, those exercises have variations that are safer. Those exercises also are typically used by Olympic athletes that train for six plus years to compete one, you know, one time. So it's obviously not a movement you learn in a week and then you start finding that next day. So I think that understanding that every exercise has a purpose. Every movement has a variation that can help as young as pre-purity to beyond. And I think that's that's the most important part that there's a progression that has to be followed. So that's awesome. What we need is we need we need more guys like you guys and gals and everyone to help all of our patients. That's what we need desperately. And we need it. We need some sort of better coverage for it too. That's an I know an issue. Well, tell tell everyone, you know, because you do some other things on the side in addition to, you know, working at Central Michigan and with your high school and stuff. So tell people about what some of your other projects you're trying to get to so we can market for you a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, right now, the biggest thing for me is coaching. I mean, we have a playoff game tonight at seven. Huge. I mean, we were two and seven last year, this year, six and three. So right now, my focus has been just getting these kids ready physically and mentally. They soon you up. Hey, I hope so. You know, but but no, I mean, it's just that's been my biggest turn now is just helping these kids be ready. I think last year, the issue was that we didn't have the confidence or the physical capabilities to like hang with these schools. The other things I'm working on is obviously helping the junior high athletes in the same district be prepared to take that next step next year. I mean, they're going to be in high school. So I mean, if it starts now, they can definitely get a step ahead. And outside of that, really, I mean, I'm working on a few more certifications and my own personal training business. That's online. Um, primarily I deal with, you know, anywhere from the mom who just needs to just stay active to I have a power lifter who's trying to do a meet, you know, the next year. So like, I just I'm just doing a bunch right now and trying to help everybody out. We got to get you a youth cohort. We got to get you a youth cohort and you get to all the all those kids in there. That's that's big, big money right there. So thanks for thanks for coming on. It was a, of course, of course, any time to promote lifting throughout life. And it sounds like you do a great job at it. So thanks for coming on. Here's our outro. Don't be used solely to diagnose or treat any condition. As a result, we are not responsible for any unwanted medical outcomes. The views and opinions discussed are of those of the host only and do not represent those of any other entities.