Lifting The Lid - Episode 140 - The final episode - the one where we mark the ending and celebrate success

(soft music) - Hello dear listeners, it is Claire Norman and Steve Ridgley with you once again, lifting the lead on coaching supervision. - Hello everyone, good to be with you again. - And this is our last time of lifting the lead on coaching supervision. You may have guessed that, I don't know, from the kinds of topics that we've been covering in the last two or three months, that we've been gradually tapering or moving to an ending, but we wanted to celebrate this ending today, Mark the ending well, thank you, Chair, there thank you for listening. And do a good job of closing, just like we've talked about closing coaching programs well, closing coaching sessions well. This feels like closing, well certainly a closing of a chapter of Steve and Mark my respective books, closing of something that, well I can certainly say it's been very special to me. Steve, how would you like to get your voice into the room about closing? - It's funny isn't it, how time, kind of loses meaning when you're engaged in something that's energising and useful and fun and so on. It's hard to believe we've been doing this as long as we have really. And what started as a little bit of an experiment really, I think, well I certainly had no expectation that we'd be doing it a number of years later, five years later. I imagined when I started and maybe there's something here in the kind of human thinking if you like, I was curious at the outset about the idea of a podcast. And probably didn't think that I'd be good enough or that we would be good enough or that it would have any interest or that people wouldn't listen or we'd dry up of things to say after six or seven episodes. And so I think probably when I started out it was exciting because it was new. It was exciting to try this medium and to do something different. But I never in my wildest dreams believe that it would be here five years later trying to close this chapter. And I think that speaks to the, well, I guess it speaks to the value that hopefully you, the listener has gained from this. But I think more than anything it speaks to the value of this relationship clear between you and I, you know, I genuinely look forward to every single conversation that we've had. Every conversation seems generative because as we've probably said, listeners, we don't script anything, we don't plan what we're going to talk to. We tend to get together in what we've now become known as the green room and we have this brief conversation about what's going on in the world. And then out of that emerges something that seems to be worth talking about. And then we start to talk, recording what we're saying without really knowing where we're going. And emergent is a good word, I think. It feels very emergent. And what's lovely about this journey has been that is the J word. What's lovely about this has been that, as I said, when I started, I didn't imagine as much would emerge. I thought we'd be doing it for a few months and then stop. And I never guessed that I would get so much out of five years or explorative energizing emerging conversation with you around all sorts of topics in coaching space, supervision space. So it's been a journey. Yes, it has. And as you say all of that, I feel tears welling up because now it does feel quite sad to be drawing it to close. Much as we've made this joint decision maybe four or five months ago, now that it's here, now we're recording this last session, I know that I'm going to miss those generative conversations because they have formed part of my reflective practice. And they have helped me to see things through different eyes, your eyes, and to articulate what I didn't know I thought until I said it out loud. And to get clearer for myself about what was important for me in my coaching and in my supervision. And to get lots of ideas for how to work creatively. So yes, I'm very, I'm very sad at that loss. And I'm feeling already, you know, we haven't quite finished. And I think that kind of, that raises something else for me. This feels very indulgent with the magazine listeners. Don't worry, we will move that conversation on slightly. But it, I think the thing that I hadn't imagined at the outset would happen was that this process of recording a podcast would in itself be like supervision. Yeah, in itself that it would be restrictive and formative and so on. You know, in the, I imagined, I think, at the outset that we would be just selling the idea of supervision and how you can get into supervision and what you might bring to supervision, it would just be a little resource that would be handy for people who were perhaps just starting out on their supervision journey. But actually the process, surprisingly, in some senses, has had enormous value for me and I think for you as a kind of form of self supervision or reflexive practice along the way. Yeah. And I've certainly learned things along the way. And in that, I guess, you know, what we've done in advertently or most is we've kind of modeled the coaching supervision space. You know, clients when they come to coaching probably never really imagine they're going to get the learning that they get. They probably think it's going to be something quite different. And I think, you know, when you go as a coach to supervision, you never quite imagine that you're going to come away with the learning that you come away with. You might think it's something else, but actually it's often surprising. And I guess, as I sit here and say that, because I hadn't thought about this beforehand, I guess that that makes it even sweeter, but sadder, that that process of modeling, the very essence of coaching and supervision, I feel like we'll be losing. I'll be losing by not having these conversations with you every few weeks. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And there's been. You said something to the listeners there about, sorry, we're being a bit indulgent here, but I think there's something really important about us acknowledging all of this as part of our ending together and our ending with our listeners. Or be it listeners, you will be able to listen back to all 140 episodes. For quite some time, we will continue to pay for the hosting. We've said for at least a year, and we'll see what happens after that, depending how many of you are still listening, of course. But where was I going with that thought? Something about. Something about the relational aspect of everything that we've created. The R relationship has developed and deepened. The way we'll do this today will be very relational. We have definitely the whole emergence thing. We did script it at the beginning. And we chipped over ourselves a number of times in the. I mean, it wasn't exactly scripting, but we're like, Now did we say that here on the recording or did we only say that in the green room? Can't remember. But I feel that I have been able to start trusting myself to think in the moment, to speak in the moment. So there's something about my voice, has strengthened as a result of these 140 episodes of just riffing with each other and allowing things to come that we didn't, you and I did not know, was there just as would happen in coaching or in supervision? Yes, in a way we're role model a number of dimensions of relationship in the coaching and in the supervision space. I mean one, as you alluded to is the relationship deepens and that's worth knowing if you're a coach and you have a long relationship with your client, that the relationship deepens, you know, more is said, more is understood and it's very different if you have a longer relationship to if you just have four sessions when that might be slightly more transactional even though a relationship will still be there. And I think the same is true with supervision, often your relationship with your supervisor might be longer than a typical coaching relationship but bear in mind that the relationship deepens on a number of dimensions, it isn't just around the work and what's brought which I think is a useful thing for people to hear and to know and to look forward to in some ways. Yeah and I think also when you talk about riffing, I think we both just share what's come into our minds in the moment and actually again that's such a good thing to take away if you're coming to supervision. Don't be afraid to just share what's come up even if you're in a group, don't be afraid to say, "I've just had this thought, it seems a bit silly but let me just kind of share this." Because your brain has an innate ability to offer you something from deep within your unconscious, your subconscious that is useful and so trust it, trust what comes and be prepared to speak it, to have a voice, to say out loud what is in your head, you know and if all coaches coming to supervision were doing that and all supervisors were doing that then relationships build even more quickly. Yeah. Trust flows from that honest vulnerability I guess. Yeah. Yeah I used to wonder where some of those thoughts came from in me and I didn't I don't know somehow I thought, "Oh, I'm querying that, I'm not going to say that out loud." I don't trust that but these days I trust that something is trying to speak through me if that doesn't sound too woo-woo but you know there is more to us as human beings I think than we give ourselves credit for is more than just the head stuff and that if we can slow down for long enough to pay attention to those quieter voices within us or they might be loud voices but we still squash them. That feels really a really important part of our work as coaches to be able to listen to ourselves, our intuition, our gut, our spirit, whatever we class that has but not to think, well that doesn't make any sense so therefore I'm not going to say it out loud, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense because it could be useful in us saying it out loud. Yeah absolutely. I learned many years ago that the value of um, closely playing attention to the physiology of my client, this was the coach. Um, to kind of tap into what clues their body was giving about the thinking process because when a client stops and thinks often they're doing exactly what you've just described that they're processing information that comes into their heads but then cleansing it slightly, cleaning it up, trying to make sense of it all in their thought processes before they speak out loud. And so I found that sometimes it was really useful to notice someone's eyes shift slightly in a way where you could tell them with deeply in thought. Just to slightly interrupt them and to say what just happened then? You know almost the kind of honour that some part of their processing had reached if you like a junction and they were making a choice about their thinking or they were learning something in their thinking or there was emotion related to their thinking. And sometimes inviting them to share what happened in that moment even though they haven't sin the thing I think gives permission for people as you say to kind of say what's actually happening in their thought process rather than to conclude their thinking before speaking and off of the sanitized version. And you know that applies both as a coach and also as a supervisor encouraging that ability to riff, that ability to just say what comes as it comes. To play exercises isn't it? The people we used to recommend you do like just write your thoughts down as they come and don't stop writing in a way that's just gone hold a pen long enough and to write that book maybe we have to type it these days I don't know but you know it's that kind of stream of consciousness thing. Or I was hosting a supervision session this morning and one of the groups said I can't find words for this and so I invited her to make marks on the paper draw see what came out and see what that gave her. You know if you if you can't find the words let's not force the words if they're not there but some other modality like drawing may well get to it and she spent a good 15 minutes I would say drawing in silence and me reminding her and the rest of the group that this was not a performance it was not about coming up with the perfect drawing she was never going to have to show it to any of us and it was more about what did her hand want to do what it was kind of wanting to be drawn through her rather than what did her head want to draw. So yeah any of those ways of getting to the wisdom. It also reminds me of another aspect of kind of good coaching and supervision experience which I think we've also modeled in the way that we've produced this podcast which is that spirit of not knowing you know that that invitation to as you say get the hand to draw without knowing what it means or where it's going that invitation to just reveal what the emotions and thoughts were in your head in that moment without really knowing how they fit and how they make sense and the very fact that we have after the first half of a dozen episodes stopped attempting to be professional in some of what we're doing and just accept that if we get together and explore good things will happen and that that spirit of not knowing what we start what we're going to say or where we're going to go I think is another way that we've modeled how the relationship can be productive and generative and emergent and useful. Yeah I love that because I went I went to a conference last week and one of the sessions was about not knowing and I felt like there was a lot of philosophical talk about what that meant to not know and to be comfortable with not knowing and I was and I couldn't grasp hold of it but we have grasped hold of it by being kind of being it to doing it being in that whole mix between us of not knowing so I can be with not knowing I don't need to understand not knowing to be able to not know if that makes any sense at all. I just tried as he was speaking and I was just trying on the size the idea of turning that into an identity statement of saying I am a not knower. Just see what that sounded like. It's funny isn't it how we are familiar with the opposite of that. Often we might tell ourselves things like oh my idea. We'll say something that says that we're just sizing ourselves about not knowing something or making a mistake about something but actually I've never heard anybody say and I've never said I am a not knower as a badge of honor or a kind of a you know that's why I am I'm a not knower and I'm good at not knowing. I wonder how many leaders would benefit from being able to embrace that as a. Yeah. I was talking to my publisher the other day about the writing of my next book and how it felt like there was so much I don't know about what I'm writing and so I was feeling like, "Well, how can I be writing this book when I don't know so much?" And somebody else was was in the conversation as well and she said, "Do you know what? It's much more, uh, it feels more refreshing and um, I feel like I can connect to you better to hear you say that you you are not certain about something." And so that's really freed me up to just keep writing. Doesn't matter that I'm not certain. Um, I. Well, let's go with the J word again. I'm on a journey. That's twice as if you're counting. Yeah. How did the J word get the bad press? How did it become the J word? Oh, it's because it's on all of these, um, uh, reality TV shows, isn't it? Although, you know, the dancing contests and the celebrity contest. So I've been on a journey. Yes, okay. But we have been on a journey and we have learned a lot on this five-year journey, right? We have, yeah. And I think although we don't know you listeners, we've never met you, most of you, probably nearly all of you, um, it feels like you've been on the journey as well because we've heard from you stories of when you listen, how you listen. We've had some feedback around some of the episodes and things that made a real difference to people. Um, so we know you've been on the journey. You've been the invisible, um, co-passengers, if you like, alongside the journey that we've, that we've been on. So we couldn't have done it without you. Although when we're having these conversations, you know, you're not there, you're not visible, we can't hear you, we don't know, and you're not listening at the time that we record them. Um, but you have been on the journey with us. And I hope that you feel that your relationship with us has become a relationship, that it's not just that you listen in to hear some words of wisdom or some bizarre things from these two people who record this podcast, that actually you have developed a relationship with the both of us, um, in the way that we, that we work, you know, and the way that we've delivered this. Yeah, I remember one person saying, uh, that it felt like being a fly on a wall in our conversations, um, that she really actually wanted to be a part of those conversations. So, um, you know, that feels quite validating to me that what we have produced here has been something that people would have wanted to have participated in, out loud, and not simply listened into, um, yeah. Yeah, that's one of my favourite reviews as well. Yeah. Unwant. Because it's not, I mean, what's nice about it is that you can, you know, it conjures up the image of being present with these two people that have a conversation, seeing, witnessing, hearing, everything, but not feeling any pressure to be engaged or involved in it. Now, you can literally enjoy it for what it is. You don't have the pressure of, um, contributing. And we have put some of our people who've joined us as guests, under a little bit of pressure, or kind of throwing things out, and they're more encouraging them to, to riff, in a way. So, one thing you probably don't know, you listen, is that a number of our guests, when we've asked them to come onto the podcast, have asked us what the questions are, what the script is, what they've asked us to, what we want them to talk about. Um, and we've sent to them each time, well, we don't really know. We're just going to go wherever we go, you know, so, um, so they've also joined us in a, in a, I guess there's slightly, maybe a slightly scary way to start with in a kind of a not knowing way. Um, but it wouldn't have been authentic if we had switched our style of working to accommodate a guest by preparing questions in advance or thoughts in advance. Even then, we did that for the first few episodes, yeah. We've remained authentic, I think, in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, so I wonder, I might simply throw a question out to our listeners, though, about what have you, uh, found useful in the podcast? Are the ones that you've listened to? I have no expectation that any of you will have listened to all 140. But if you have big congratulations to you, that's a massive achievement. Um, Stephen, I were talking in the green room about how many podcasts there are out there now, and, um, you know, how much they are competing for all of our attention. And so if you have listened to all 140, that is quite a feat. Um, that's going to be something like 80 hours of listening, isn't it? Yeah, at least, I would think. Yeah. That's one more three days solidly listening if you've listened to all of them. Yeah. Congratulations. I'll take my half to you. Yeah. And it's kind of why we moved from once a week at the beginning to once a month, recognising that people, we haven't necessarily got the capacity to listen to once a week. Um, we didn't have the capacity either to record once a week. It was becoming a bit much at one point, but the once a month cadence has felt really spacious and has given us a chance to, um, bring more of our in-between reflections to the space. Mm. Yeah, I'm just scanning through some of the, um, the comments. So, um, obviously there's the fly on the war. There's, there's praise for the curiosity and lack of judgment, which is nice to hear. Mm. I hope that comes across, although once or twice, I think both of us are stood on the soapbox. On the screen. So, it's a big, yes. And there's also conversations about how it's helped people to reflect, um, both during the listening and also afterwards, and that's that's strength and improve, you know, coaching. Mm. Reflections on how we've tackled this word supervision, which might feel quite bloated and scary at the outset. But how, you know, this person says, "How everything that came up seemed irrelevant to me and my practice at some time." Um, and it's with it, does what it says on the tin, referring, I think, to the name of the podcast. Yeah. Um, lifting the lid on that particular tin. So, yeah, some lovely comments from people. So, thank you for those who, who've taken the time to leave one. It's not too late. Still go and leave us a review. Yes. That is true, because as we are leaving all of these up online for others to discover, the more ratings and reviews that we have, the more likely others are to discover it, we know that when we started this podcast, well, we're pretty sure it was the only podcast on coaching supervision. I haven't looked lately, but I suspect it probably still is. There's quite a lot of podcasts on coaching, but not so much on supervision. So, you know, we really do want it to rise up and be still continue to be useful to people who are coming into the coaching profession. Also, people who have been in it for some time, because maybe it will stimulate some new ways of thinking where you might feel you've got yourself into a bit of a rut and want a bit of a shake-up. Yeah. So, any ratings and reviews welcome, please. Indeed. Indeed. And I think one of the easiest ways to do it is on Apple. Some of the others don't make it quite so easy to leave a review. Yeah. Yeah. Go to our podcast and look us up and drop us a message or give us a number, a number of stars. Yes. And we should say that we're not going away. No. So, just because the podcast is ending, Stephen, I will still be around running our supervision groups and I want to want supervision. So, you know, you are still very welcome to come and talk to us about your own needs in supervision without any pressure to join our groups or want to ones. All there, of course, we would love to work with you. But yes, we're not going away. way quite yet. No. We've had nearly 27,500 downloads from people. We don't have the data that says whether that's 27,500 different people who only managed one episode before they left, whether that's, you know, whatever 27,500 by 140 years I don't know whether that number of people have listened them, they've listened to every episode. But it would suggest that we have had hundreds if not thousands of listeners. So thank you to everyone who's taken the time, even if it was just to give up 40 minutes of your day while you were walking the dog and listening to us round along about something or other. We thank you because without you listening there isn't really the value, you know, we don't do it just so that we can have a conversation. Well, we do. We've said that we have got our own value out of the conversation. So in some senses it didn't really matter whether we had listeners or not in the end. However, it has been lovely to have listeners along the way too. It has been. Yeah. So we think we are going to indulge ourselves for a moment and just kind of celebrate that success. You know, five years of producing a podcast initially weekly and then monthly is quite some achievement. There is a massive body of reference material there. And I've certainly met one or two people who, you know, people who run coach training who put forward the podcast as a resource to use. And other people I've heard who've used reference to it by saying, oh, I've told some of the people in my supervision group about this podcast, that kind of thing. So it's nice that you're spreading the word. Please continue to do so. It is freely available. So anybody is welcome to dive into any of these episodes. And we hope in a way that they stay there for a number of years as a useful resource to anybody who's at a stage in their coaching where they're reconsidering supervision, considering it for the first time, looking to try a different way of supervising, moving into becoming a supervisor, any of those things, there is value hopefully there for you. Or indeed, if you're just walking the dog because that still works or doing the Arning because that's another favourite as one of the parents. Yeah. So I'll ask you Steve, what do you think you're losing in this ending? Wow. You know, the first thing that came into my head in the spirit of what I've just been saying was a friend, but we have to make sure that that doesn't happen. And make sure that we do something else or stay in contact or whatever in other ways. Yeah. Because it has a really felt like a meeting of friends every few weeks when we've recorded these. I think I will miss, as we've said, the learning, the things that emerge unexpectedly. Somehow it's slightly different to supervision. You know, you're going, perhaps taking something to supervision and there are a number of other people maybe there if you're in group supervision, who bring in certain things. It's quite in one sense kind of compartmentalised. What I've loved about this is it's been very emergent and we not really know where we're going. Sometimes we've started off with an idea of a session and then we've ended up going in a completely different direction. So I think I will miss that. Visually for someone who hates routine, I think I'll also miss the routine of having to top and tell them using garage band and put the music on and then post them up. So in one sense I will miss that in another sense. I won't miss it at all. Yeah. Gaining some time back for sure. Yeah. I'm going to miss our made up words. As we've done a few of those and I'm going to miss our, you know, sometimes our song choices or our little kind of sing-alongs. Yeah. Some of these strange metaphors as well that we've come up with. Yeah. Yeah. Backpacks will stay with me forever. I just can't have a new one. But how was a really early episode, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It was ten or something. Yeah. That's amazing that you still remember that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something else I think that I'll realize is our miss the guests that we've met. In different ways because we've had some experts in certain areas and fields, you know, bringing in some expertise around coaching in the neurodiversity space, for example. And then we've had some lovely people who've come into coaching from unexpected dimensions in a way, you know, from the Navy, from being a journalist, that kind of thing, rather than some of the more traditional routes that get people into coaching. And so the variety of people that we've met along the way has also been something that I think I'm on this. Me too. I met my therapist at one of these sessions. Did you? That's not be listeners by the way. No, that's not me. Yeah. Yeah. He was one of our guests. And I am super grateful for having met him in that. I didn't know at the time that he would end up being my therapist. Maybe three years after we did that recording. But I'm very grateful for that. Yeah. So I'm also now then thinking about, so what are we taking with us? That's one thing I'm taking with me. Well, your friendship I'm taking. I mean, you know, you and I knew each other in a kind of a, we'd met a few times in a sort of a business on text. But, you know, now I absolutely take you as a friend from this work. So that's definitely something I'm taking. Yeah. Me too. I feel like, well, with your permission, if I do have something super visory that I wish to speak through, I have somebody I can call on. Yeah, of course. Of course. I'm sure there will be other ways that we stay connected if we're not doing this every few weeks. Yeah. We're going to make sure that happens. Yes. We must. Next time you have a little bit of a long time, I can make it as I couldn't make the last one. Oh, September the 24th, 2026. Wow. That's planning. I know. I'm ahead of myself. Now, of course, I say that out loud on this podcast, it may change, but right now that is the date of the next book launch. Listeners, please put it in your diary. It's all listeners getting written down quickly. It will be face to face. It's a lovely way to be with each other bodily. We actually ever been in the same room together. Oh, Steve. Because most of our meetings have been online. Yes. Even when we worked as supervisors for the pharmaceutical company, that was all online, wasn't it? Did we ever have face to face? No, I went to a thing face to face once, but I don't think you weren't there. You might have gone something else. I didn't get to. I don't know. I don't think you were. So we definitely need a face to face to do. I need a hug. Yes. An ending hug, but also a new beginning hug. Would be lovely. You asked the lovely third question when we were in the green room. You were saying that these are questions you sometimes ask people in endings. And I think you said something about what are you putting in a suitcase and putting on top of the wardrobe to get out later. I'll be surprised when you open the suitcase to discover something in there that you forgot and you still had. So yeah, I don't know. I think there's something about so I, one of the reasons that I first had the thought about this and then connected with Claire about it was that the technology kind of intrigued me really. And so many years ago I did a daily blog. four, two years. And I was amazed at the kinds of things that happened as a result of that, you know, in terms of how this how this kind of global social media type technology spreads the word of what happens. And one of the blogs that I wrote at some point ended up in a Chinese magazine, a Buddhist magazine. And so it's those kinds of connections that I find really intriguing. And the reason that I was kind of curious about podcasts is that it was still a relatively new medium. And I thought to myself, you know, what happens on a podcast and what's the result of a podcast? How does it work? You know, I'm lucky enough to speak to Claire and Claire was also interested. And so we kind of got together to do this. So I think one of the things that I'm putting in a suitcase to hopefully get out again at some point is the idea of experimentation with some kind of technology. Yeah. What will happen if I try something else in a different medium, you know, so that's one thing I'll put away for a while. Yeah. But I don't know whether I'll literally put that in a suitcase or actually take it out with me straight away, you know, as the joy of experimentation of trying new things. One of the things that I think stopping the podcast will afford me is some capacity to be able to figure out some other ways to experiment and some other ideas that I've been percolating on that, you know, now is their time kind of thing. I don't like doing things the same way over and over again. I do like structure and routine and like you. And I get bored with it after a while. That routine needs shaking up and so yeah, there's a number of things that I'm drawing to close right now which are going to afford me the time to be able to continue to experiment and try new things. Yeah, it's interesting, I mean, I guess I would go into the kind of density statements I would classify, you know, I am an experimenter so experimenting all the time with things in a way. It's the technological experimentation. It says, "What happens if you put something out there using technology?" I guess it's the same with, you know, you have a newsletter, I don't have a newsletter, but that's another thing, you know, where you can put some information together and a newsletter transcended for lots of people and then see what happens, you know, it's the seeing what happens in the technological cyberspace world that intrigues me. Yeah. In terms of, you know, how far things travel and how connections are made in such a massive global way when, you know, two people sitting in their kitchen or their bedroom or wherever they happen to be sitting, have a conversation and then publish it and then suddenly someone's listening, walking the door in the Philippines or something or other listening to this, you just kind of think, "Well, how interesting that the world kind of exists like that?" That's probably because I'm such an old fossil, but actually not. I grew up in a world where that kind of thing didn't happen, you know, I grew up in a world listening to where there weren't phones and there wasn't email, that's kinds of things and so, you know, as I'm sure one or two of you did. There were phones, just not mobile phones. Yeah, that's right, there weren't boxes on the street, we're called a real street. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And. Yes, I'm a world. We've got many years ahead of us, so we need to kind of keep up with the advancements and that does mean experimenting with stuff that we might not feel comfortable with the more we age, the harder that can be, I think, sometimes. Yeah. That's a dangerous slippery slope, I think, that could narrow our worlds if we do not experiment with all that technology that's bubbling up, that's right in centre. Yeah, I noticed as we're having this conversation that what interests me about it is when they're emerging. So if I think about now where we are with something like TikTok, I'm not interested because it's already emerged, if you think if that makes sense. So yeah, I'm looking for something that is just emerging, not completely bringing, because I wouldn't know enough to know what I was doing really, but there was, you know, just something that was emerging, started to become a force in the world that intrigued me and then I'll be up for giving it a go. Yeah. I don't know what that is yet, but we'll find out that there will be something undefably. Yeah, that's been. Well, listeners, hopefully we've done a good enough job of rounding this out for all of you. I feel like for me, this has been a conversation that has enabled me to get some form of closure, although I am feeling myself not wanting to draw it to a close. You know, avoiding saying goodbye to Steve and to you listeners, but all good things must come to an end. Yes, indeed. So the new things may start? Yeah, so that new things may start exactly. Yeah. Steve, thank you from the bottom of my hallot, everything. Detot clear. It's been a delight to spend time with you. We will stay in touch, we will make that happen. There's no doubt about that. And thank you listeners for putting up with us for five years. Yeah. So on that note, go well, Claire. Go well, Steve. Go well, listeners. Take care, everyone. [Music]