Lifestyle Inflation, Divorce & Building Wealth Again | Pumla Nabachwa| Uganda Edition

Money, the lack of money will keep you in places that you're not supposed to be in longer than you should. On the next episode of Financially and Correct Uganda Edition, we speak to arguably the face of financial literacy in Uganda, Bumla, Nabatua. Bubs, I worked in an NSSF that's a National Social Security Fund in my S4 vacation, the whole of it. That's when I studied real touching, real money. How much did they pay you, do you remember? They were paying me 200,000 Ugans, about $50. My father made a huge investment in their education. Find out why. My dad was raised in an object poverty. So his wiring was survival. We must survive in this world. And when he made it through the world, he realized that one of the things he was missing a lot were connections. She tells us about Rav4 Girls in Uganda. Our Rav4 at the time was what we used to call Campo Medi. Campo Medi means it was sweet for me. They used to give Campo Medi's Rav4s to side girls. Yeah, so it was a message of that woman is sweet. We get into the financial complexity of co-parenting. How she navigated her separation and how she and her ex handle their son's bills. And what humility has to do with it. My ego is not in this discussion. Take your things. But remember we have a child together. So may this child remain a beneficiary to some point. End of discussion. Put that aside. She tells us why she has a four-year emergency plan and her experience about going broke for 18 months while she was building her house. You know when houses are going up, they tell you a plan but different things that happen. Money is that going. Different things that are happening and you have to pay for them. So that's really what happened. All my whole salary, everything just used to go. I had extra income. That was a turning point in my life that taught me. It's very dangerous to depend on one source of income. Very dangerous. This is a story about how financial literacy can change your trajectory. Everybody, welcome back to Financial Crack. Uganda edition. I have another episode for you. Remember, Uganda edition comes every two to every other Tuesday. So in a month, we usually have two episodes and less days, five weeks within a month. We shoot our episodes from the Gun Edition at Tagore Living. It's an Airbnb, a very gracious host who has given us the privilege and abilities to be able to do this. Please check out the link in the description box. If you are headed to compile and want a nice three bedroom place to stay, this would be a good place for you to stay. Anyway, so my guest from today context last year when we came in, I want to say June, July, whenever it was, we had a financial literacy event was opposed to have her on the podcast. Unfortunately, I have very busy and money field schedule. Dinner, allow it to happen. So we finally got to need to happen this time. We got a lot of requests for her. She is none other than Pamela Navacho. I think I've gotten that right. Did I mess it up? Ask me for Navacho and then go to Pamela wrong. Pamela. Pamela is a South African name that means a risk in Bantu. So Pamela Navacho. I was so concentrated on the Navacho. Then I switched to the A and the U. Anyway. So she is a financial literacy educator and I'm con amist at the Bank of Uganda. And she is a mom to a teenager, which is the most difficult job in the world. It's actually not being a mom to a toddler is the most difficult job. Do you know I know so been through the stages. Actually, no, what's the baby below before toddler? Zero to two. That's terrible. That's the worst. Zero to two. That's part of the really ever get easier. I've had that conversation with my mom. Since the problem is just get more difficult. No, they just get more complex. That's all. But any day, a teenager, what I don't think, I don't know, is a teenage daughter. I think I'll be having a different conversation. I think when you have a teen, a son, you know, boys, it's either they go or they don't. So if they go, they go. And he has not gone. He's not gone. I've seen that he's testing me. He tests me. But I don't let it because I was where he was. And I went. You see that thing with girls is when girls go, they go and come back. Boys usually, when their story, if their storyline is corrupted or contaminated in high school, at a dollar cents people are teenagers, it's very different for them to rewrite their story. They go because what are the vices? You know, drugs, alcohol, sex, things that really mess up with your head. When a girl goes, it's like, what? I'm just, they are rebellious and they are just not listening and they are not. So they can't retreat and come back and be like, you know what? So he's not gone and I'm so thankful but it's a day by day. Every day I wake up, I say thank you. Every day he comes in to the house with his head still on his shoulders and his okay. And he's sure still on his feet. I say thank you. Yeah, but you don't feel you proud. I am. But maybe I should be proud of myself because I'm the one that raised that. Yeah. You should. Yeah, he tends to be. Yeah, and that's good. That's like, that's just one way or two and adults. Yeah, but you guys have, I think the last thing we're here, I think we're not talking to Regan. You guys have IDs, you can get at 16 or something, some identification thing. Yes, you can get a national identification from 16. Okay. So does he have one? What? What? No, he does not. Or yours is 18. Yeah. No, actually you can get a number. So what you can get, that national ID, that physical ID, you can get 16. You can get as an adult by 18. But you can get what the national identification number. Okay. So that's different at 16. Okay. Yeah. That's when you can get younger. Okay. So yours is 18. Yeah. Always 18. Yes, ID. And do you call it? I don't know, you get an ID before 18. Yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't really because they have school IDs, which it's a fact. Okay. Yeah. You are financial literacy educator. Tell me, what's the most financially incorrect thing you did in 2025? Last year? Last year. It was only like a month into this year. The most financially incorrect thing I did in 2025? Yes. I did that many. No. I did that few. I don't know that they were. Really? No. But if you had like, at the beginning of the year, you had a financial plan. Yes. Like you scored an A. You did every single thing that you wanted to do. So maybe I will say the most financially incorrect thing I did was I got backstoring. I earned over 100% more than I thought I would. And my teaching in financial literacy is saved fast, which I did. But when I went back to look through what I could have saved, I would have saved more. So I, the financially incorrect thing I did was I spent more, I spent more excessively than I should have on things that really did not add me that much value. It was just a celebration of, oh my God, you've got so much more extra income. I worked really hard last year. I have a really hard last year. And I got smart, not hard. I worked really smart last year. And I got a lot of returns and a lot of results. And I maybe did the one thing, I, I, it lifestyle inflation, where now I've earned more. I can spend more, which is not my teaching. Yeah. What do you think happened that led to, I guess, you spending more? Because money is emotional. Instead of logical again, you say, because I'm an educator, I'm a human being fast. I might be preaching and I'm telling you, I know that preachings, I know the principles, I know the fundamentals. So that is what I give you. That's what I share with my audience. But I'm a human being. And my teaching is money is low, you should treat money logically. Emotions, you can't remove emotions from human being because we're emotional beings. But there should be some thought process to why, the why and the what. So the what you spend on and the how you spend always influences the how, the why and the what influence the how. But when you put emotions and you use less logic, you will find yourself with really terrible choices. So me that really I will not let you as it might because my budget allowed it. I knew how much I was going to earn except I'm a salary runner so that I put a side always. But then I also have these, you know, the side stuff. Yeah, I don't want to say side stuff because it's really part of me. It's part of my income. So it's now what I do, but it's seasonal. I can't estimate, but I best off what I did the work I did the year before. And then that's the figure I put and then some because I know I'm going to get more. But that figure was so surpassed that I achieved all my financial goals for the year. And I had so much more to spare. So I saved a lot more than I had intended. But I could have saved more, even more or invested even more. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. That's good to do money stories. I can't believe you, I know I feel bad. Thinking about it. makes me feel bad because good financial management makes me feel really good about myself. Now you've made me think about it. I mean, do you, I guess there's a lot of, I want to say maybe, like colloquial knowledge around, you know, forgiving oneself and being able to move forward from that. Is that something that you ought to teach or forgiving ones? When it comes to money, I mean, like I know you're saying you're feeling bad because you didn't say what you're saying. Yeah, but then feel bad with action. Yeah. Yeah. So the action that what would make me really feel better and forgive myself better is if I did better this year. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So my actions this year. I hear from now. This conversation is, but I had planned to rest more this year. You see the thing with African, actually it's not an African problem. I think it's a human being problem. The more you work, the more you work, people reward themselves with more work instead of rest. So every time somebody walks out and they see results, they want to walk even harder to see more results. And then they get those results, then they want to work even harder. When do we rest? So I had, I really worked out last year. So I had planned to plan, play, you know, rest a little bit more this year. Reward myself. But now I eat the money now I have to walk away. Okay. Let me do your money story. Okay. So where does your story begin? What kind of household did you grow up in? Are you in middle class? Did you guys have money? What was it like? So I only found out that I grew up privileged about five years ago. You only thought about poor? Yeah. I always thought about poor. And why? Because my dad, my limit explained my parents' professions, white collage of my dad was an IT specialist trained experienced IT specialist. And my mom is, well, they're both retired now. My mom was a lecturer at Macquarie University, she has a PhD in food science and nutrition. So that's what she did. And they made okay money. It was all right. The problem is, which turned out to be great later, is that my dad believed in quality education for different reasons. And the peers that he was now in formal places with, he realized, these people went to the same schools. They were brought up in the same way, in the same places. They connected, their thought processes, their reasoning was similar. And so they aligned. But because of his background, not so much. So even if he was as deserving, the seat at the table came with so much work. So my dad decided he's going to put us to, he strategically placed us in schools, where he knew that 20 years down the road, 30 years down the road, Pumla can pick up a phone and say excuse and knock at anybody's door and be letting easier. Because that was survival mode. My mom was brought up in good life. And that was a doctor. He was a chief. He was good life. So for her, it was just, yeah, that's business as usual. So she believed in quality education because she had experienced the quality education. And she was attest him on the results of quality education. What did that do to us the five children? We were put in schools over rich and wealthy children. And what is the natural human response to compare? So let me tell you, we didn't have anything. All we were doing was going to reach people's schools because that's what my dad believed. He would not spend on anything else. It was just, he would spend on other things, but there was such an investment in education. That was expensive. That the other people, the people who were taking the two kids who were going school with, for them it was just pocket change. I mean, they had the latest shoes, the latest bugs. They went on trips outside the country. Their life was just different. So I literally thought, who were poor? Because that's just the representation of what I saw. And again, because my parents kept us in a bubble. I couldn't compare with anybody else. So even his closest friends, they are best, my parents, best friends. They are closest friends. Why those kinds of people. So may I put up thinking we were until one and even as I grew because again, you kind of attract and keep the company of people who are similar to you. Right. To be fair, I think my first interaction with people who are different than me was in the other university. That's the first time I start with people who are paying their own school fees, who had to work for their pocket money, who would tell stories, their parents, they had nowhere to go over the weekend. Even when we had recess, they couldn't afford to go back to their homes. It did. I was so confused. Again, my parents also brought us up in a two-parent household. I did not know any single person who was raised by either a grandparent, by anyone other than the two parents who gave birth to the until university. My first experience with a broken home and family was in university. And that just didn't make sense. It was just so to hear somebody say that my mother goes without shoes to that I can't go to school. It was not aligned. Again, because of the bubble that I was prototyping. How did your parents create this bubble? Because it sounds like, and up until university is a very long time. It's like 18 years. How did they create 18 years of a bubble? What are the kind of things they're doing? Because it almost sounds like you almost have to confine someone almost. No, you know that you can live in this world and there are five, six different realities. And people you can tell, tell us about you, campala, you ganda, and get five different people and they'll tell you five different stories or conversations. Because that's how they were brought up. You don't really expose, you don't really see it. If you're living in an unaffluent neighborhood, if you're going to a good school, if somebody's just keeping a certain kind of people around you, where are you going to find these other people? Do you think that Bill gets daughter knows anything other than the world that she's been prototyping? She's not being confined. But that's just the world you're exposed to. That's the limit of your exposure. You don't know any better. My parents, our extra activities, were piano, tennis, swimming. It baffles me. I found out that most people don't, Africans don't know how to swim when I was at the university. I was so confused. By why don't you know how to swim? That's just a life skill. In my head, it was a life skill. If they throw you in the water, why aren't you swimming? It's like running and working a natural process of, you know, of life. Your mind is just wired differently. You see things differently through the lens that you've been exposed to. End of discussion. It wasn't that it was forced. My dad just set up a structure. That was it. That was it. We went forward with it. End of discussion. Because even the object poverty that my father was born, it shielded us from. We would go to that village only to bury. My dad, because he's the one who was now self-made, he dictates, you know, money is power. He dictates when someone dies, we bury that next day. So we don't have that business of Africans, where you go to that village. You stay there for three days because of, in Uganda, we call it a loombe. You know, just condoling with the bereaved. We didn't have that back home. If you died today because my father is the one who is going to be called and asked, "When you are for death, when you are for death, we need financial support." And here we run burials, loombe, vigils for days and days and you're feeding people. So on that day, the person dies. They go to that much area. There is nobody. The next day, the body comes when we are burying. He has already arranged the tents, the funeral arrangements. So we go there just to bury and then and leave. So I didn't really see that side as well. The people would come home. We wouldn't go to them. They would come to us. That's just how I was raised. So me, I thought we are poor, but I also didn't see poor era. So my comparison was awkward. I had no comparison. Everything else I saw was just happening. What's the most, if you can remember, the most affluent family or most affluent person you met doing that period. What were they doing? In which period? When you were younger, when you were younger, when you were young, when you were growing up and comparing yourself to these guys, what were the things? It was the most extravagant thing you saw someone do. Do you know? They used to leave us with a house keys when they would be going on vacation to Mauritias. I first had the word Mauritias, when I was in primary school. Some of you only had it in adulthood. C-shelves Mauritias, Maldives. Those countries existed. Those islands existed. I had those words. But because again, we were family of five. These rich people, by the way, they had three kids. They had fewer kids. And actually, that's when I made the decision to not have more than two children in my life. Mani zahari hendak ikatunan atina. Mitaan atina kufanatara. Mitaan atina kufanatara kanakikatan kanakikatan. Makarari takaikatuna. Mitaan atina kufanatara kanakikatuna. Herbert's. Um preoccupiedue ske'nan eno gabada onion. Un Acceptable CompanyM 업robimoasi---- cute great company ka A, soda, akakawaapateko mekau sy'im '我有點 darüber 'were uzen lockdown Po rigorous üjen start crisis, vizioak mammント, spa program, meth, pensêst ogl Do und Big 24000imentos Arzig o why outward life moder spotlight and ��diak po my año rapid tatu 35000 當 bictions di lif buko hool, you know, so that again, same thing, did nothing to account o my money, nothing because of how I was raised, make money, spend, spend money, end of discussion. So that's it, that went on through uni, then I got after uni, I was one of those again, privileged people, not privileged, because this was my own hard work on determination, I got a job graduated. So I didn't ever have that struggle if I walked to the streets, I dropped my papers, the first job I played for three jobs at a time, those jobs which usually take in graduate, graduate training, program, but they pay you. So my first job, I remember was a UAP insurance, and I was being paid a net of 500,000 UGN, that is a hundred pounds. Yeah, so, again, are you living at home? I'm living at home. Okay. Nothing, everything is, and I had a boyfriend at that time, who used to pay for everything he was much older than I was. So he would ask me, what was I doing with my money? My thinking, even bought me a car that he would feel will, himself. Yeah, he was older. He bought me a car when I was, as my graduation gift. You know, you guys, when I look back at my youth, I really am joking. I'm joking, as a, as a, I have two dollars, and I'm always afraid to, like, I guess, put myself in that context. Yeah. What does, how does your father respond to your living in his house, you graduated? Yeah. And another man buys you a car. Can I ask you what he asked me when he saw the car parked? Yes. Is the title in your name? That's it. That's it. I further believed in security. Yeah. He said, 'Dakka datamanas' give you that easily. not in your name it is not your car. He has lent you a car. So if anything happens that seat, he asked me the title in your name and he asked me to show him the title. It was in your name. It was in my name. Okay. Yeah. And he said that's fine. Then it's your car. You can't get a gift, but I'm not having another man's car in my compound. That's what he says. Yeah. And I was like, all right. Yeah. So I implore you, if men are going to give you children gifts and they have a badge or adults, it was at university when we started dating. Yeah. So that was fine. I was just 10 years my senior. And my dad also maybe is another thing. I don't know if I should give you this one. My dad, when he would find out who we were dating, he would find out where they are walking and go to the HR again, connection and ask them for the CV. Yeah. He asked us fast. But of course that we raised women with big heads on their shoulders. Right. Of course, I was like, I'm sorry, what? It's my choice. How dare you? Right. He would go back roots. I'll find out myself. When I found a CV of my man in his house, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I used to go snake, snake things to get his stuff on his room and I found a full CV. And you know what, why? Because my pattern at the time, my boyfriend was driving a truck, a company truck. And he said many, men use those come and they are the drivers. So they come and pretend and I didn't. And there's nothing, nothing wrong with being a driver. But he said, let him be honest. Yes. Until you he's a driver. And not completely. Yeah. And not present. Not represent himself. That is his car. And this is his ability. So I went and went and he said, yeah, because then he stopped asking me. So that's me. That's what he asked me. I said, I mean, I'm in such a security. Wow. It sounds like an indirect conversation about money. Did he ever talk to you directly about about money beyond that? No. All it was independence for women to have their own money. That was the thing that mattered. Yeah. For him, that's all that mattered. He said he used to tell us that as a woman, actually, it was a both thing, but because these conversations are natural for men, we were four daughters. He had four daughters on one son, the first born. So for him, it was always that money, the lack of money will keep you in places that you're not supposed to be in longer than you should. That's what he said. So when you have money, you'll be able to choose the people you surround yourself with. You'll never be, you don't want to know what it takes for you to compromise your values. I've raised you with good heads and your shoulders, but I don't want you to know what it takes for you. So I'll sit here and I know that Pumla you're a woman of integrity. I know you can never compromise your ethics. I know you can never compromise your morals, but there are women out there who are sleeping around with men because they have children to feed. I don't want you to reach one day when you don't have food for your child, your morals will be tested. So even if you're a woman of integrity, you will sell yourself because of a child and the world will accept it. They will accept that store. So for him, it was always that. Just have your own money. But his other thing was have your own money, but men should spend on you. Yeah, they should. It's their responsibility. They should. But have your money. That was his principle. Are there any comments from maybe peers or people around you when this car comes into into your life? Yeah. Everyone is like, wow, can we get a ride? Yeah. We were kids. I was 22. Imagine. I was 22 years old, craving around a ruffle. So a ruffle at the time was what we used to call Campo Mede. Campo Mede means it was sweet for me. They used to give Campo Mede's ruffles to side girls. Yeah. So it was a message of, eh, that woman is sweet. So let me give her this car. So this call me Campo Mede. So it's like, how you walk out and pregnant and it's evidence that you've had sex. So when you drive that car at 22, they know you didn't wait for you. It's not that car. A father buys for his child. The first car. Someone has bought it. So there is a man who bought you that car. So it's like you're working sweetness. So that's really what the perception was. And it was it was funny, but I was in makeup and it was being fueled by the man who had put the car. Yeah. So it was good life. But let me tell you why the man put me the car. He got tired of dropping me up and picking me up. That I know that for a fact. Yeah. It was it was functional. Yeah. He used to pick me and drop me from work every day. And we didn't leave that close to each other. So it was a problem. So I think in his head, it was functional. It was like, actually, there was selling off in companies when they're selling off all cars. So you managed to get one really cheap and then he just sold that one and was able to buy me this one. So it was just it was functional. I know it was just of love. Yeah. But function on this. Which I was I was okay with. Okay. Yeah. But again, I was still being looked after. Right. So what happens next in your money, in your money story? What's the next thing that happens? Do you pursue independence? Do you want to now like move out in those kinds of things? So the next thing, the very next thing where my my real one of the first lessons where money showed me was again, my father sentiment, ringing supreme. You will find yourself in spaces longer than you're supposed to because you don't have money. I made a decision to separate with my husband. They're not going to get married. We get married to them. I bought me the nice car. We get married. Things don't work out as they should. Again, because my father raised me with the head on my shoulders. I'm like, I can see very far that this relationship is going to be one of those cushionary tales where after 20 years of marriage, people stand in at their wedding anniversary and say, you don't know that things that we have gone through but we are here happy after going through 10 years of turmoil. Me, I said, I will not waste 10 years of my life. I could see that one day we would be okay, but I could see that to get over this mess that had just started in the home, we would need a minimum of 10 years. I was 23 years old. I said, I know you're 23, 33 seems like your old age. It seems like me now. I thought, I'm there now I'm starting to leave and speaking at wedding anniversaries talking about how we went through with struggle. What? I don't want to struggle. I don't want to struggle life. I said, and people used to say, but Pumla and they'll ask, did he beat you? No, did he teach you any? Not that I know of. Do I see? Not giving you? He was providing. But I was raised different like to see different things character and alignment and happiness. Me, I was raised to be happy as a human being and I was not. I was just not happy. I was like, I can't stay here. But I can't stay here had no financial backing. I was being looked after entirely and now I had moved to Bank of Uganda. I was only at UAP insurance for one year. I applied to Bank of Ghana. They were doing the same graduate training, good in first time. And I started I was getting a first salary was 1 million, 1.5 million, which is about $400. Give or take $400. Pamanth take home. So I had now moved from 100 pounds to 400. I'm using different currencies. No problem. I blew up. I blew up all of these clearly. Okay. So again, doing the same thing. So now as soon as I get married, I wanted to pursue my education to do my master's degree. But my husband was quite traditional and he just said, no, let's just have children first and then you can do that later. So I wasn't happy with it, but I just decided. I gave in. I decided you know, this is not an argument I want to have. So let me just have the kids be done with them. I can't go and study. There's always place to study. In hindsight, I think it was the best decision. I wouldn't give it to. And if I was back in my 22 year old self again, I would choose the master's degree. But in hindsight, as a 40 year old, I'm like, imagine I have a 17 year old son who I'm here with and I still have the master's degree. So I mean, you know, I could do it later. So that was one of the real problems now we had. So I had a child immediately. So I got married in December, September nine months later, I had a baby. Again, I'm not spending on anything. I'm not, I'm just luxury. So now I started buying things for my child, luxury things. My husband was paying for everything, buying everything. End of it. Now I reach a point when I'm so unhappy in this home. And I say, I'm leaving. I stayed in that home for eight months longer than I should have because I had no savings. The power of savings, I understood what it meant at that time. I had no savings at all. Nothing that you could speak about. I went looking for places to leave. All of them were asking me for, I think the good places were like 400,000, which is, let's go about $100, $100 per month, which I didn't have. So actually, what I had was like two months, but most of the good places were asking for four months to six months, which I didn't have. So I ended up staying longer to save more money. And then I went, so now I had four months. I went out to now say, no, please, no, I'm doing it. everything silently in my head. I am fast establishing myself. Then I come and say, I'm sorry, buy, I've gone. So I go look for a house, a place, I found the perfect house. The perfect house. But they were asking for $200,000 over, that's $50 more than the average house. And they asked for six months actually. Actually no, it was around market price, but they were asking for more months. I had four months. But I had decided enough is enough and I'm moving. I had to call my parents, we're going through some financial crisis at the time. So I called my mom. My mom was like, you know, I can't give, I told her I need one month extra. I didn't want her to know how bad the situation was. So I didn't divulge. Actually they needed the place I was going to need it three months extra. So my mom gave me one month extra. And then I called a very close auntie of mine. I explained to her the situation. And she called me and said, come to my office. I'll give you two months extra, two months rent. I gathered my money like this, paid to the landlord, and came back home and then had a conversation with my husband to which we did mutually agree and say, you know what, this is really not working, but you know there's this thing that men have. They behave badly. They treat you badly in their relationship. They say, you say I'm moving, they say, let's make it work. I can't change. I can be better. Let us solve this. You've been talking and talking and talking and talking. So now that's the conversation we started getting into. But we had really paid the landlord. So I knew I was said, I am not backing down. This is my constant, this manipulation is not going to work because I put money somewhere else. Yeah, I'm going. So if you want us to work on this, let's work on it separated apart. He said, of course there was no okay, but I had paid. Carried my belongings and I moved. But when I moved to this house, please note now, I only have money for rent. I had no furniture. My son and I only moved with my son's bed and mattress. So he me had way to sleep. Me, I had a mattress, I slept on the floor. I had nothing. Cattons, we used to use bed sheets. It is when I was on the floor sometime. You know, lying down on a cold floor, crying. But I wondered, how did I get here? I walked for the central bank of Uganda. How do I have no bed? How do I have no furniture, no chairs in the living room? How do I have no curtains? It was our wake up call. That's when the real wake up call of Pomla, you need to set money aside for a time, for an emergency. And that's the first time that was my son was one year old. I think at that time, I lived around, we were pretty early. I think one year old. As you've been in that for a year, by the time you lived. Yeah, so that was, were married for 21 months, I think. So just under two years. Just under two years. Yeah, it was just under two years. Did money have anything to do with your separation? No. Money was not a factor at all. If anything, it's money that delayed the separation. The lack of my money is what delayed the separation, but money had nothing to do with the separation. It was just things that had accumulated over time and I didn't see how forgiveness was not going to come easy. Right, right. So it was just that was it. But money, no, my husband was a generous man. He gave paid for everything provided, supported, still does because then it looks after my son. And because I've had you mentioned actually Barak about, you grew up with a single mom. Yes. And no support from elsewhere. So financial I separated when I was a teenager. Oh, okay. I think 12, 12, 13. And so since then, yeah, my mom has done everything. We have four boys. Four boys. Four boys. Oh, wow. Yeah. Financial issues supported you since then. Yes. And, yeah, let me leave it at since then. So then. Oh, no. Let me not. Let me not speak. Yeah. So I actually made a decision because I had seen what separation can do, what it was can do to the child. I made a decision that my son's father, I would do everything in my power because I'm done who decided to move initially. Matters he agreed eventually and we talked about it and really we same mutual agreement, but usually it's one person who initiates. But then in hindsight, now even I can't see that. He's thankful because there are many homes where people just stay together. It's toxic. But either way, it's hard. Whether you choose to stay or you choose to live, you choose your hard. Either there is nothing that's harder than the other. So I know I made a decision that even if I was had a head in the marriage, I would be much softer in the separation. So that I don't antagonize him. So that we never have that story of, you know what? Someone I'll ignore, that's a Uganda saying that many fathers, absentee fathers like to say that that child will look for me one day. They'll grow and look for me. Why? Because sometimes the mom is making access difficult. Yeah. So I softened myself to ensure that it will never be my fault or my problem if my son does not have a relationship with his father. So I took even more garbage. The garbage I was refusing to take in the marriage. I took the garbage in the divorce to make it easier because I know men and their egos. So I didn't want it to ever be that, yeah, even that person, even know, maybe when he said something, I said, OK. When he did, I said, OK. So he has financially supported his child. He has been present physically in his child's life. Emotionally, he's a real father. We just live separately. That's it. Remarried, even when I had remarried, my son now had siblings who he gets along with really well. He married a really fantastic woman who really should have married in the first place, not me. She's a total opposite of me. But yeah, so because she's a lovely person, she gets along. She loves my son. It's like a relationship, actually. And also that one I decided that I prayed that my son's father would get-- would remarried. That was for me my one prayer. Do you know why? Because men never release you until they get somebody else. It's the truth. And even when I would be as if dating, when he would hear about anything, his attitude would change. I literally had to-- I didn't date until my baby daddy remarried. When you're talking about attitude changing, is this the same? You know, I already had a reference. When you want to leave, then people start doing the things that you've been asking them to do. And you want to do it. So is that what the attitude would be like? Oh no, no, no, no. He would become hostile. Yeah, he'd become hostile. I'm bringing up the sentiment. So who are you? Which women? Those men who are exposing my son to-- Right. That's the card they like to play. That's who's that. What are you doing? You're exposing my son. How many will you expose him to? But for them, when they get somebody, it's OK. For you, it's OK. For you to expose your children to us. Many women are supposed to-- But when they hear that for you, you are, it's problematic. So I think he would hear sometimes dating or what. And then he would-- I would see the way he would treat me change a little bit. Change a little bit. He would become more apprehensive, more-- So again, in being my softie, I released it. I didn't do anything. Even if even I was not because I'd always said, my son is still young. I don't want to bring another man into his life right now. I took him out of a stable environment. Let me not put him in a situation that I cannot control. But once in a while, someone would be around, around, and somebody would hear. And then the message would get transmitted, and things would change. So I prayed that he got married. And he did get married. And he got married to a woman who loves my son. So even that prayer was not who loves my son, because I was like, you know what? That's God you'd handle that. But I knew if he gets married, he would leave me alone. But he did. And then the woman-- she actually made him a much better man and father, even to mine. Because you know a single does. Sometimes he's working, he's doing this, he's moving. His priorities, like, I need to make money for the child anyway. So presence is not so much. But when he got married, he became even more present. He became-- So I was worked out. I was really worked out. But I know for a fact it's because I softened myself to a positive state, the situation. So I went off tangent. No, no, no, no, it's absolutely fine. I'm curious about the divorce process, and separation process, in relation to money. Do you have to get a lawyer or are these things that you agree on? Is that for what you can share? The way you decide to split things? Is that contentious or is that simple? Is that easy for you? Yeah, because again, in softening everything, he we had property together. But did we really have property together? Oh, it was his property and he would put my name. I had no money. My clothes and shoes and bugs. So again, because I didn't want to fight, I released everything. I released everything except income got would be for my son. Yeah, but I removed everything. Once I had my name on the titles, when I released it, I removed everything. OK. And I think it was all right at the time. I know it's difficult to do that if you've been a kid. together for 10 years. And then you are a must-property. And even if you didn't have a must, I would say that because even if a woman is not putting in a money, or the man is not putting in a money, there must have been some support that is non-monitory. Yes. So the split should be, but for me, it was just under two years. Honestly, I really hadn't put in any financial, anything at all. We spent those two years fighting. So I'm sure I was not his peace or his support. I had to be honest. So that we put aside. It's only the lawyer, again, bringing us back to financial and saving. I literally had to use a lawyer. And if it was a battle, we had to fight so much, I would have lost because I had to choose a lawyer who was within the family who agreed that I would pay him later. So my divorce lawyer was on banjo. Was a loan credit saying Uganda is on banjo. So again, and you see, it is that whole process of separation and divorce that made me realize the financial decisions I had been making in my past were really not healthy, that I was just spending money. Because I had it. But what was I spending on? I could not account for anything that I was really spending on. Yeah. I couldn't. I mean, it sounds like you have-- and at even other time, you had a very noble approach towards it. The separation in the movie yourself was saying I didn't contribute to it. I didn't do this. So I won't do this. Whether no contrary voices in your ear, at that point in time, telling you otherwise, or make a different decision. No, no, no, no. And I think this also goes back to the fact of the quality education. I don't know if it's education or bringing that I was-- may I was raised to be happy when just to have peace, to live in this present moment, to be peaceful. So even getting out of the separation, getting out of the marriage was a decision I made to be happy. But what I find people doing is that when they leave a hostile situation, now they become-- so let me go back to marriage on divorce. You leave the marriage because you are unhappy. Now, you're in the divorce and still unhappy. That doesn't make sense to me. It does not make sense to me. One of them has to be happy. What's something that's got to give? You can't have your cake and eat it too. So may I decide to remove myself? And then-- and I feel like maybe I grew up really quickly at that time. I really mature at that time because I was 23. I got married at 23. I had my son at 24. I was separated at 25. So for 25 years, I remember my parts of my brain are not even developed. The parts that are really thinking logically and making rational decisions are not even developed. But I think it happened really quickly that I always knew, Pumla, you want to be happy. What are the things in this separation that might make things more difficult for you? Property? Child custody. So property, I decided. So you know when you're going through a divorce, they tell you, you can only choose between three things. I don't know if it's changed in your country. In my country, it's cruelty. It is abandonment for two years, and it is cheating. You can never prove cheating. And as you invest in proving that cheating, you must invest in choosing cheating. Cruelty is only applicable if the other person admits and says, OK, what's cruel. So that easiest way at that time was abandonment. But it means you must have been separated for two years. So for me, I said, I'm not going to fight in cruelty. It did not cheat. So let's wait out that two years. That was my first decision. To wait it out, I was like, no problem. Just waiting out, just waiting out. It's OK. But as we separated, of course, he entered another relationship and got a child. Now I could prove cheating. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that was it. So what you have to prove-- so the quote-- in the quote's eyes, even in that window of separation, you still need that in marriage. So what heist in our process was that when the bad came in the ear and told me, my-- There's a child on that way. And I knew my ex-husband was of high moral. He's not the kind of guy who you would say something, and he denies it. He would not deny-- For the sake of it. Yeah, just for the sake of it. If there's a child, he's not denying a child. So I wrote, I'm through my lawyer, and I said, I've been informed, ABCDE, and what whatever. So is it-- is there-- is my lawyer went? And he said, yes. So he admitted to it. That immediately took us on divorce. Now we are in the divorce house. Two areas again, property, child custody. I said, this one of child custody, come on by-- First of all, it's joint. What are we talking about? It's not contest. It's joint custody. I'll just fear for myself if he decides to want to prove a point and want to do sole custody. But I didn't believe him. I tell people, you open your legs for men, and then you blame them later that they are narcissists, that they are bad man, but when you are-- when things are well, OK, you think those-- they were not those same people. They were. You just chose not to. So me, even from a very young age, I've always chosen character over anything else. So even my ex says, there is no ex I can badmouth. Not because I don't want to, but because I chose them. I know what I was choosing. So I chose long term. I chose good people, good-hearted, kind natured. So that's why it's difficult for me to have a story and say, oh, that man, that no-- it's them who say that woman. Yeah. It's usually the reverse. They don't say, when I get that woman, but me, that man, no, it's not there. So he was, I knew he was a good man. I knew he would not separate me from my child. So but I decided to give him the first gift. I said, before we discuss child, let us discuss property. So that when he comes and he realizes that I'm saying, bring all the peppers and a sign of my name, you'll soften and give me everything else that I ask for. Which is what happened. So because I was allowing him and saying, you know what, my ego is not in this discussion, take your things. But remember, we have a child together. End of discussion, put that aside. Then we said, now child custody, what do you want? I said for me, I don't pay school fees. And in case something happens to me with my job, I don't pay medical. That's it. Just cover those. Just cover those. I'll do everything else. Actually, he had come to say, you know what? Since there is this term, lawyer, you know, my lawyer is not really on our side. So the lawyer decided to come with terms and said, you would have been living in a one bedroom house if not for your child. So because you have a child, he has to pay half your rent. I went and had a discussion with my mother. My mother told me, for as long as the man pays any amount of money where you stay, he owns that place. He can't come and go as he pleases. Don't accept. If there is a figure you want to put that is higher than food, than-- Cosme, I was only asking for. Actually, there's no advice. She said, just get medical and school fees. And because he was young at the time, there was also food to be heard. Dipers and things. He agreed and paid for all of those. And I said, don't pay for rent. But because I said, don't pay any rent or anything, I don't want any support in terms of cash, I even wrote down a whole list of what the boy uses every month and presented. And I said, this is the list I will pay half. So because of how I came, I think he was just blinded and just agreed to everything. He said, all right. But he had also wanted to include. But that maneuverant, I inflated some bills. Yes, as I was. That one, that one, I will not pretend. I inflated some bills. And I also put a clause in that-- Cos this is a discussion of serving my law. And so I put the clause in. And I think he thought it was to for my benefit. But it was really for his benefit. For us to review every year. Right. To review every year. But the only thing that goes up is school fees. So that one's not being touched. The boy starts to feed. And you know when children are young, because they stay more with their mothers. But as the boy grew, we started 50/50. So even money for food is no longer there. So now I'm putting those in my budget. So the budget, my budget changed as my son grew. And we didn't even ever have to go back to court to have those discussions. There were discussions, you know. There were discussions that we could have. Again, because I had humbled myself. So it's something I would come and say, you know what? Teja doesn't wear diapers anymore. So that goes off the list. You don't have to give me that money anymore. That goes off the list. Teja doesn't have formula anymore. So we're not doing that anymore. But now he's eating proper food. But that food is cheaper. So me out constantly have conversations that actually reduced his financial burden. That was it. And but that was the truth. So now and then when it became a 50/50 arrangement, we stopped. There's no money. And now I have medical. Yes. I always have medical. So we only agreed that in the event that I lose my medical. Then he-- Then, yeah. Because I even use his medical. I use them interchangeably. Yes, medical. I have medical insurance. So I can use whichever I need at whatever time. Doesn't matter. Just that he's more accessible. My medical at the bank, you have to take and it's a bigger process. So I'm usually actually would use his. And I was like, yes, that's all right. So it's just school fees that he pays now. Because we kind of have-- Yeah, it's now just parenting. Yeah, it's just parenting. And if I'm being really honest again, I think my financial independence and security allows me to think about other things and not these small, small matters. Because I know women with the same financial status that I am that would still fight. For-- And say, you must do more. You must give me more. I want more. But I. It's not a thing for you. It's not a thing for me. Also, I have one child. Yes, so it's not like. Like. You know, Africans like children. And I don't understand why they like children. You know, in the past, children were actually a financial resource. They were labor. Because in other generations had land. They had factors of production. They had land. And they needed children to work on their land. To provide for the family. Yes. But now you're there in talgor apartments. In sunset apartments. But you're busting with that in children. What are that in children, therefore? And you're still the same African parent who is saying, "The money I make is mine for myself. I'm not giving money to my children. Let them also suffer for their own." So why are you having them? I don't understand it. So for me, I have one child. And my employer pays me really well. Over time, I. I've been there for eight years. This year will be 18 years. And that amount has risen exponentially. So I don't need the support. But because it's his responsibility as a father. And you know what, Barak, it's good I watched that episode where you said, "My mother did everything because I never, ever want to hear my son say that. I want my son to grow up knowing the responsibility, over man, because his wife or his mother produced him, something if I am the one facing life and death, to give life to this child that we are both going to enjoy, it's only me who can do that, biologically by design. And the only one who can naturally feed this child, because I am the only one who can breastfeed only. So if I'm going to be the one to give birth to this child, to feed this child, and then also provide financial for this child, I'm sending a message in my son's mind that women can do it oil, which is not true. We shouldn't do it. We shouldn't have to. But you see, having to align that, the fact that they can't let them removes responsibility from new their man. And that's why we have so many single mothers working around doing also the financial work. Because men have been brought up seeing women do it oil. When the school fees comes, let me tell you, there's a time my son's father delayed to send school fees. And they called me. And my son said, "Mom, we don't have money for school fees. You pay, I said no." I told him, "That's your father's responsibility. If they've been taking it to school, we'll get out of school." It's his responsibility. Till the father called me and said, "Come, la, this and this has happened. Just waiting for these, whatever." I said, "Okay." "Send to the money, I asked him, when are you sending me back?" And me, I want things in writing. So that we don't have conversations. Yeah, we have evidence of everything. I can't afford my son's school fees. It's not much money. You wrote to send me a message and said, "Oh, this day I'll send you the balance of the table." I said, "Okay." I sent. My son came back. I said, "Tesha, I'm going to go to school and I'm going to talk. I did not tell him that I covered for a bit. And he said, "I don't want you to understand that this is a responsibility." And the support should only come. It's a privilege. So no obligation. So me, that's how I'm raising my son to know what his role is. To understand it. And know that we all have our roles. I know we're trying to move out of a world of gender roles and be more fluid. But if we ever remove those gender roles, we may not always be doing more roles. If we ever remove those gender roles, we may not always be doing more biologically, not because the men want them to or living them to know. No, it's by design. It's by design. I'm non-denominational. I'm non-religious. But there's a reason why Adam and Eve were given separate responsibilities or punishments. Those who are Christian, you know that punishments. Women, to bear children, and nature, and men to work hard and to live and provide for their families. I mean, that's what I believe in. I believe in that. But because we are a progressive world and a dynamic world and we are growing, we must be able to support each other in both roles. I mean, if you're going to build the house or buy the house, I'm not giving, we are not equally doing it. You buy the house. Let me pay utilities. You pay rent. Let me pay the other things. You buy the car. I'll pay for the insurance. I'll pay for the fuel. There is a job that I'm going to do that you cannot do. You're not equipped, biologically, to do it. So me, that's my thought process. That's how I'm raising my son to understand that, excuse me, don't you have a responsibility in your head and just look for a supportive partner. Someone who can support you, but well knowing that this is my role and you should appreciate that she's doing it. I have a question for you based on something I watched on. I think it was Joe Biden's podcast where there were a number of couples there. One of the couples that was there was a person who had been separated. A lady who had been divorced. She was there with her new partner. When she got divorced, her ex-husband, I think, was a wealthy person or something, but essentially had given a lot of money or assets in trust for the children. There was a discussion that was coming up amongst them. The discussion was coming up amongst them. They were talking about whether she had money, whether their boyfriend could borrow money or take money from now this. I think you see it. The lady is dating now. There was a divorce. There was a debate that came about. It was a quick note for her, I think. She was saying something like, "Well, it's not my money for this." It's for the children or something. He's opinion. The boyfriend's opinion was something like, if I ever was in trouble, the money or something like that, and she would be like, "No, it's not my money." It's not my money. I was curious. If you've been an instance like that or what your position would be on money in that context. The children's money. Anything you're holding in trust for your son that is from your ex-husband is for your son. Even if it's not from my ex-husband, even if it's from me, it's my child's money. Even I'm not allowed to touch it. Unless I have a plan. So this is the thing. Personnel. Yeah, I think there's these words and new ones. It was a boyfriend. Not a husband. So I think that's where problems come. Because if a husband, if I have a husband, I think I would be having a different conversation than a boyfriend or partner to be honest. But I'll still have the same conversation. Even if, okay, let's say we have a boyfriend and not a husband. We are coming and sitting down and having a financial discussion on the table. And saying, what? Because by that time you have a trust. You have other money. Elsewhere. So I'm not touching my children's money. But let's discuss. You have a problem. Can I touch my money? But still, we're not touching my child's money. If my child has money, I have money. So why are we not discussing my money? That I can't use to support you. Why are we discussing my children's money? That's their future. That's their money. It's not my money. It's not mine to give. I would also be stealing. And that's not fair. That's not fair. Because we still from ourselves every day. I'm a big, big advocate for saving. And I believe that saving means giving your future self money. And the less the more you spend in your today, is stealing from your future self. So if even I can look at it from that point of view, what about another person? So if my child has money for his future self, it would be unjust for me to steal from him. The same way I don't steal from myself either. I have been my saving. I have a saving plan for emergencies. I have a plan for retirement. And I have savings for different goals that I'm going for. For example, I have a friend who turned 50, who was turning 50 in April. And he told us a year ago that he wants to elaborate his birthday in Mauritius. So by the guys I'm going to Mauritius. Yeah, I plan for a year. Yeah. He told us a year in advance. So every month, so I set up a saving goal in a unit trust. Called Mauritius. And every month I put in money. And because again as I explained last year, I got really good money. I covered it very quickly. So my plan was to plan for the year. Actually, I had said, let me plan for seven months. So that I can buy my ticket earlier before it gets really expensive. But I reached my goal and put it as a side and kept it there. So ticket boat accommodation and send. I just now I'm going with spending money. But I planned for it. So I'm having a discussion with my partner and asking. So boyfriend. First, show me your plan. This problem, this mess that you're in now, where did it come from. Then let's see where that mess came from. Okay. How do we get out of this mess? Why and to? Because let's be honest. People are usually thinking when they find themselves in financial problems, they're always looking for who can help me. They're never going to help me. saying, "Oh, can I reduce my expenses?" Nobody wants to reduce their expenses. Actually, we have a Fin Cup survey that showed in Uganda when people land in problematic financial positions, only 27% of Uganda's actually reduce their expenditure. Others do many different things. Others go to savings, but another big chunk is always assisted by a family friend, a family member or a friend. They go for them, they think they are entitled to get more money. For them, they don't want to change their spending patterns. They want those to stay the same. That's why most of us get ourselves into problems. We say we are broke, but it's because you want to maintain the same lifestyle, even when things are not going well. I mean, so I think that's really where that issue comes from. So, me, I'm having a discussion and saying, maybe look at the expenses that you have and see what you can reduce. It can reduce. Okay. I can reduce. Tell me now, because I mean, I'm trying to get this in, I'm sure it will be difficult, but in summary, in summary of some sort. So, because you move out, you get the divorce, you go on through that process. And essentially, you're going to be about my divorce, but anyway, excited. Let's go. Yeah. Your financial story essentially, and a new trajectory, because you start being more deliberate. What if you were to look back and try and identify like three key turning points of your financial life to get you to where you are today? What would they be? I'll say three. Yeah. Quickly. The real first one that made me start saving intentionally was, so this is going to seem okay. So now, when I realized that, "Pumla, you need to change your behaviour and put money aside. I was putting money aside out of fear." What was that? I would never ever be in this position again where I don't have, I have to do so many things, borrow money, whatever. So, I went by the way, paid my mum, I paid my aunt's back. That was also part of my financial plan. So, I had a good four years when I was running at the bank, and you know, I go. So, my son was saving. I'm trying to now just backtrack. Backwards. I actually got a scare. I got a cancer scare at a certain point, and when I got that cancer scare, so what I was saving money for was that I never want to be in a place where I have to, should move from this place, and I can't move to another place because I can't, I don't have money. So, in my head, it was really just, I have to have enough rent. I should always have money, aside for rent. So, me, it was just keep putting money, keep putting money, starting kids, anything, coming. If someone asks you for a yeah, you can pay for a yeah, and that's what I actually used to do. So, I had started paying for my rent in a yeah. So, I would save worth a year, and then also save towards the next year. So, I would always have extra over a yeah, over and above, and that I put aside, and then also extra, just for extra sake. So, what happened when I got this cancer scare, and when I realized, oh, you're good, doctor, clear as you, I said, back and I asked myself, formula. If something were to happen to you and you died, what would you live for your child at this point, except cash? What would he have of himself? That was one. Number two, I realized that every time I got tired of a place, I would move. I lived in four different, five, I think, houses between that age of two years and seven years for him. So, the fast turning point was when I made a decision to build a house, a home, rather than move. Luckily again, I was able to accumulate, I went, did the mathematics, knew how much I needed, and realized I had 50% of it. Luckily, I work with a financial institution that gives us cheap credit, cheap loans. So, I added 50% for my employer. That was my fast lesson in borrowing money. So, that introduced me to dates, real dates. Not this one of give me two K-3, no, real date. That house took me, so I bought a shell. So, I bought the house with my money, a shell, and then I used the credit facility to finish up the house. That one and a half years, I built house in about 18 months. Those 18 months, I. It doesn't make sense to a person who is struggling, who has nowhere to stay, nowhere to. I'm building. I'm telling people that I'm building a house, I'm building an asset, I'm building a legacy, but I have no food. For 18 months. 18 months. I used to eat, so what would happen? I only used to eat lunch at the bank. So, I don't show up eating. The one that employer is giving me, because I didn't have money for food. My son would eat at school, and it was cheap just by bread. And he was enjoying having the time of his life. We had the amelo, chapati, and bins. He liked that combination of chapati and eggs. You know, kids like snacks, so he was not really eating real food except at school. So, he went through one and a half years like that. I didn't go out that one and a half years. I didn't go anywhere. Unless somebody was house taking me out. I didn't pay for outings, I didn't travel, I didn't do anything. If someone said we are going, I'm saying, "I can't, I can't afford." And I was just very honest about it. I can't afford. That's what shocks me with Africans today that they just can't say, "I cannot afford." They still want to go and live life the same way they did even when things are different. So, at that time, so that was also another thing that, "Pumla, when you have savings, you're saved for financial work, but that's all you saved for. You should be able to have also saved for something else because now my whole salary in my calculations, that even because I didn't want to get more money, I could have got more money from my employer, but I didn't want to be overly debted-indited. So, I decided all my salary would be going in the house. You know when houses are going up, they tell you a plan but different things that happen, money starts going, different things that are happening and you have to pay for them. So, that's really what happened. I had extra income. That was a turning point in my life that taught me it's very dangerous to depend on one source of income, very dangerous. And that's when my mind started growing. So, that was one turning point. It taught me different lessons. It taught me about borrowing. It taught me about saving for something beyond, just one financial goal. And it taught me how I'm able to reduce my expenses. It's possible. It's possible. I don't have to live the same life that I was living. So, that was the one point. After that, my life changed. I started saving for different things. Now I'm inside my house and the piece of mind, there's that debate of building a home or building rentals and generate income. And I always say that debate can never be one. Everybody does what they want. I don't think this. Any standard practice or theory that demands that building a home is liability or renting, your pouring money, but me there was piece of mind. It just depends on your value system. May I have a piece of mind? I've told you for me, they taught me how to be happy. Me as long as I'm happy. I know I'm doing the right thing. So, I was really happy in my home. We settled in with my son. It was nice. This was 10 years ago now. I think about 10 years ago. Actually, it's a little bit 10 years this year. Oh, clap for me. Yeah. Who had that? Yeah, so after that, my practice of financial, my management of my mind completely changed. I started to save for more things. That's when I started to save for an emergency fund. That's the point I sat down and realized my son is seven years old. And much as I had a great education at my career university, I would like my son to have options. I would like for my son to be able, I don't want to reach a point when we're going for university. And these are costs that you'd really like to do that is interested in. And the reason, it's not really being offered in the where nearby here. And it is really what he wants to do. And then now I have to settle. So I decided at that point when my son was seven years old to start saving for his university. And I've been doing that consistently ever since so much so. That because now I, because of that thing I had about I learned that human rings wrong supreme that of having different sources of income, because I was basing my strategy based off my income. Then I started to get more different other income streams. I'm a talker. I can do kind of work me up and I'll talk forever. So I started to make money off speaking engagements, talking, influencing, podcasting. I said I just talk. So people now call me a lot to talk and that pay me money. So now my I realized my money was changing. I started to get you know, rising in my career. I started getting more money. So I reached my goal faster. When I reached my goal, I decided, you know what? Let me be able to send this boy in college for his A levels if possible. So I set up another goal for that because I reached the other goal. So I said, let me set him up. I set that up. And now that one is the one that's running against an emergency, a retirement. I'm completely employed but and I have pen show. I have money saved that the bank, you know, it's pays for me but I don't know. I have to have my own. You know, it's only a certain amount. I don't know what can happen. So I have to have an amount that is for sale and I have different financial goals, different things. So that turning point of building a house, to be honest, that's really what triggered a lot of micro-processes. But let me tell you the one that completely changed my life. And something that I know keeps some people behind is just a lack of knowledge, nothing else. Lack of what to do and how to do it. Bank of Uganda offers a certified financial literacy course training. It does it for free. All you have to do is prove that you're going to use the training to impact, to influence, to train other people. So you have to be in a position of influence, can I say? Corporate influence, not this influence of our money, influence, no, no, no, no, no, institutional influence. But the demand at the time I did the course, the demand was not that high. So they'll get people from the bank and then also people from outside. But now the demand is so high. Every time I have this conversation, the bank gets overwhelmed with requests. There is a waiting list of like seven years. Now there's just too many people that demand is so high. So at the time I did it, the demand was not as high. So I got a certification. I am an economist, Barack. I have had good quality education as I say. I work, my, I live to talk about policy to do with financial finances. But I needed somebody to tell me that puma in between making money and saving money, this is the how to manage the money in between. Because we can't get rid of make money, that one, that one is a given. But what you do in between before you spend somebody literally had to tell me how to save the how, spumla, save as soon as you are. That just tweaked everything because me I always saved after. I put my money together, I put and then I saved what was left. And many times it's not much left. So it was a puma as soon as money, whatever money it is, save puma budget and write it down. And when you budget, budget for the whole year. And then every time how you learn how to budget is come bring a sheet of January up to December. And then leave put all your expenses after January, after February. And then the next year, leave through that budget. See what you can, cut down, see what you're expanding. Someone telling you that you only spend 50% on your needs, 30% goes to once, 20% is investment, just doing the mathematics for me. And then having being able to apply that on myself, just that. Someone telling me that you put money, don't put it in a commercial bank. The only money that should be in a bank is money that for expenses. Everything else should be somewhere that is income generating that unsinterest finished. And there's a difference between law risk investments and high risk investments. You're keeping all that money in the bank waiting to buy land or something, invest in something. The only money that should be new, but someone just telling me that it changed everything. My life completely changed and then I started to practice. Barack, do you know that people walk around life, anxious and they don't even know that they're anxious, but they're anxious because they have no control or unsatting about what tomorrow holds. But if you are able to tick off the financial bit, your anxiety reduces. You actually leave a more peaceful and a happier life because being rich is not what's going to solve your problems. It's how you manage your money. That's going to make you more peaceful. That's going to make you more intentional. And that day you start, it shifts, something shifts, at least mine did. And I just became happier for it. I became a better person, a better woman, a better mother, a better employer, employee, my mind, I don't think about small matters anymore. You know people with road rage, those are people who are not managing their money. People who react negative quickly to things. The problem is different. It's a money thing. They're just projecting. It's a money management problem. People who are quick to argue, quick to response. It's a money management issue. Have you ever, have you ever been, even just you as an individual, that their money drops on your account. You study that day. You're happy. You're happy. You even respond to someone, can you even do you like this? It's fine. I was okay. Just like, but that was not nice. Now that day you don't have, or something is not going wrong. Or you're waiting for a response on your phone for somebody to say that, "Kadil has gone through." Let them even just say one word. You're already fighting. Most of us, and that's why you are not saying that, that's why rich people are doing to get angry. Rich people get even angry because they're not managing their money. They live very uncertain lives, very uncertain lives. Maybe something I should explain. You know, I do a lot of psychology. So something I maybe I would like to explain again, because maybe my goal is happiness. One of the things I've realized, and I think I also saw it. I read it. It more clarity came when I went through, I did an audio version of the book, "Cycology of Money." That happiness really is the gap between your reality and expectations. The wider that gap that mom is available, you are. And what is reality? Reality is accepting that, this is where I am. Expectations is, this is where I want to be. This is where I should be. Not even want to. You see those people who catch flights, not feelings. Sometimes catch feelings. Sometimes just catch feelings and not enough light because you can't afford it. So it is being content, happiness is just saying, "You know what? I know where I am. I would really love to be in Hawaii, but I can't afford it." So let me walk towards that. And I will get there. That is bringing your reality closer to your expectations. And you will live a much happier life. You see, the problem we have these days is we are too exposed to what other people are doing. You know our parents could only see what was happening in that child around them. So they measured themselves against their peers around them. That was it. That's why they were happy. They are reality much, their expectations. But now as we are here in the life of the "You pass a house" and you're like, "Eh, whose house is that?" Then you also want the house. Now I want people to understand it. People when they are passing, no one ever says, "I want to be the man who is living in that house. They want the house." That's what they want. And then they start moving mud in a way that they can be that person. Yes, you can. You can, and that's spire. But it means you're forever going to be chasing. And because there is a level of satiety that you will never reach. You see, the problem is, once you reach meet your expectations, you realize your results results have come. Then you sit even higher expectations. And yet you are okay. You are happy. You are fine. And I'm not telling people that they don't have to aspire to these things. Aspire, by all means aspire. But take the time. Just take the time. You will get there. There are people who will always be richer than you. So even when you get richer, you want to be richer. Because you've seen even richer. But there should be a level of contentment, of satisfaction, of fulfillment. Of this is enough. And I'm okay. But I have freedom. Money has accoded me. Freedom. Choice. Options. If so, I want to do it. But that money you're chasing should not, it should be a tool to help you live a better life, not to a yardstick on which it should be measured of status and identity. It should just be a tool to make you live. And honestly, better life. Because what we are doing, many of us is we are sped. It's perception. That's the word. We are spending money we don't have to impress people who don't even care about us. Why? Because they are worrying about themselves as well. And that's psycho continues. Because even those people who are worrying about themselves are spending money they don't have to impress other people who are worrying about themselves. That's psycho never ends. So there must be a level of contentment. People have to learn how to be with content with where they are, with what they earn and aspire for greater. But just live in the present. Stop moving like you. Spending on. Not that I actually mean. I want to ask you mean. It's a general problem because me I want a nice girl. But for men they want now fancy women. The more man has, the more women he wants. The more he wants to spend. It doesn't have to be that way. I always encourage many people. There is nothing sweeter than keeping your money that you've made more money in a nuclear home. When nuclear homes, whatever your belief system is. But when you get in whatever whatever belief system that you have, if you have for nuclear homes, in those for nuclear homes. But this business of now I have more than your eyes that opening to see if that way I else now can I spain. And the problem is that you get those women and those women now also have other children. If you hear the real full stories of the full of it is usually in those scenarios where people really rose and were rich, not wealthy, rich and had so much. It just takes one deal to go wrong and everything is lost, everything. But if you had managed your money better, you'd be in a better place. You'd be in a better place. You still wouldn't be where you are, but people would still be comforted. I have two final questions for you. As we wrap up, the first one is what is your happiest financial of money-related memory that you have? Starting. Actually, what I've just talked about, the beginning of this journey. That was your happiest money. My happiest financial memory. When I started, you know when people are losing weight, someone says, "Oh, I said it at 100 kilograms, 101 kilograms, and now I'm 75 kilograms." Let me tell you, the happiest they are is not when they are 75 kilograms. The happiest they are is that move from 101 kilograms to 99. That's the happiest. When you start and see even the smallest of results, because that small result is what motivates you. By the time you reach 75 kilograms, you've already, it's a lot of diminishing returns. You know it's possible. You're doing it, you're fine. So for me, it was that day, I opened a unit trust. Account, my first unit trust account, my money in three, and put money into it. That was the happiest I've ever been. Okay. Yeah. Second question. If you, then this is in quotes, "financially fail." What has happened? If it takes me as you have failed, what has happened? Explain that. If things, basically I'm asking, if things don't work out financially. What has happened for things not to work out financially? You see, I can't even relate to the one you say. I beg your pardon. It's not there. Yeah, not possible. No, it's not there. Again, because why I'm saying this is because many people, when you ask them that question, they're like, "If you're not financially successful, but for me, financial management is the success." And I'm, it's not possible for me not to manage my money. Let me give you a couple of seconds. I don't know. So for you, for example, financial effort, does it mean the market has crashed? And your money has gotten lost? Or does it mean I don't know, you have been. It's definitely external factors that are beyond me. And I can't even envision what those are. Oh my God, if I financially fail, at this point, it would, so what it would really take is a financial crisis, an external financial crisis was unearned, an external crisis that creates me to lose all my sources of income for a period of over four years. Over four years. Four years. That's mine. Yeah. Because my emergency fund, I teach people, it used to be six months. When COVID hit, and you know why it was six months, because at the time, an emergency fund meant that you have enough money to roll you over while you're trying to live for another job. So in the past, it was six months. COVID taught us that it's now two years. It's two years is the time it takes for somebody to actually gain either come back on their feet or gain other employment, and even longer, two years. But because I've been practicing this for quite a number of time, I've been able to do four years. Now, if something happened to me that failed, I'm okay for four years. Person, I'm okay for four years. When my normal needs once and you know, just getting by with my son, and it has to be you and your dependent, with my child, for it to be called failure. The place where I'm keeping my money, would have to go down. Where the fund is, would have to go down. Yeah. That's where I would have problems. Yeah. And because also again, it would have to be an extreme scenario, because my investments are also diversified both in where I'm now that's just keeping money. My alternative would be to sell my hard assets. Yes. That's it. I have to sell a bit more to give me a little bit. Yeah, because now let's say that that fund of four years is no longer doesn't exist. But for as long as, and even those assets would be very difficult to sell why, because if that's happening, there's a crisis. Yes. So who are you selling to? No, I'll just collapse it basically. The world is collapsing. We are all dying. And I mean, that's why I said, guys, I respect people on the street. May I work for government? I'm employed by government. Nothing is ever going to the central bank. They're going to keep paying me. Actually, let me tell you, Barak, can they come fire me? Why? I was, what did employee of the last year? So I know that I'm doing a good job. I know I'm doing a fantastic job. So we are not firing me. That's why I'm wondering what would happen that would cause the central bank to close. Because they are not firing me. We are not. I'm a done great employee. They're kind of fired. So I don't. And again, because my expectations are, my expectations are, my reality, that gap is not worried. So I'm not, I don't look at financial success as this thing of where I have to be on a yacht somewhere. And I'm doing everything. Me, my life, I'm really happy with this life. It could be better. And I don't mind, you know, having a house where I have a house now. And having another one here. And, you know, coming, going to and from work, from Tagore living apartments, I wouldn't mind. You know, I'm better. I wouldn't mind. But I'm okay. Where I am. Okay. Can see the dream, but I'm more content. Okay. Where I am. Man, thank you so much for coming on to financial and correct. Giving us an incredible story and lens into so many different facets of money. And like your story and just culture and speaking to so many different things, really, really appreciate it. And I really do appreciate the opportunity. I'm glad I always hope that people can go away with, you know, with, with, with, with, you learn to just to learn something. I am sure they, I'm sure they will. I hope so. They will. Hey guys, thank you so much for rocking with us on financial and correct. Uganda edition. We will see you two Tuesdays from now on the next episode of Financially Incorrect. Uganda edition.