Let's Talk Ball!: NFL Offensive Trends with Bobby Peters

(upbeat music) - Back in 2017, I got asked by USA Football if I would come to their big convention. I don't think they'd do it anymore, but I'm sitting there and one of my good friends, Andy Ryland, so if you are into tackling at all, Andy Ryland is one of the best consultants around the country, especially in the United States, for tackling. And he told me he said, dude, you gotta meet this guy. So I'm like, okay, who is it? He's like, it's this Scottish dude. He's crazy into tackling. And so I didn't think like tackling in football, especially in American football, is just kind of like, we just assume it's like one of those innate things of the game, where it's just like, you just do tackling drills, right? Like, who would ever think of like specializing in tackling? Okay, we barely have special team coordinators on 20 staff. So it's like, how do you get, there's a tackling guy. Well, come to find out, this guy, Richie Gray, is the only human being who has ever coached in rugby union, rugby league, and the NFL. And so he sits down and you can barely understand 'cause he's Scottish. And I would never talk to a Scottsman. They all sound the same. They sound like they got more of a bunch of Richies, awesome, by the way. Super awesome guy. Well, he got it started rugby. And so he's sitting here showing me all this, he was like, look at these tackling drills I've been doing with the Miami Dolphins, 'cause that's who he got his first NFL contract with. Well, he was starting to design these bags. And now, if you watch, watch any power for or NFL team highlight of their practices, if you see red bags with these black piping, that's Richie Gray. So, this segues us into our news and headlines to this, the biggest story out of last week is the fact that the Tush Push survives. And why am I talking about Richie Gray and the Tush Push? Is because who do you think taught the Philadelphia Eagles, the Tush Push, it was none other than my good friend, Richie Gray, who I met is a tackling guru, one of the best tackling coaches in the world. And so here we are, the Tush Push survives. Richie Gray almost broke the NFL. - You know, if it was me in your position, I'd be like, I'm the reason the Tush Push is around. I know Richie Gray, I'm the guy that kept it around. But, I mean, how do you feel about the Tush Push as a whole, just from the standpoint as a play? And then obviously you're a defensive guy. So, I mean, not a ton of corners and safes are involved in this play, but at the same time, it is something that is nearly unstoppable. Even if it's only for a yard or two, or even less sometimes. So, how do you feel about the Tush Push as a whole, Cody? - Well, I think it comes down to, it was the perfect storm. You have the perfect opportunity in one of the best offensive lines, probably of all time, collection of offensive linemen of all time. Then you have a man who is just a kind of a contact genius and is able to kind of come in and teach. I mean, he's an amazing teacher. You don't get that successful without being able to teach. And then you have the perfect quarterback who can squat 600 pounds is basically a bowling ball when he wants to get going. I mean, that's the thing with Hertz. I don't think people understand how thick through the trunk that dude is. I mean, he is the perfect storm and the perfect size. Not too tall, because like we talked about, we and you have talked about this before, like the bills version of this is not great. And sometimes you can, yeah, Josh Allen's huge, he's also six six. So he doesn't have the ability to really get the lever going. Look, I'm okay with the play. Do I think that it's more of a rugby scrum play shirt? But please explain to me, like I get that, I get that, okay. It's technically not a quarterback sneak because he's getting pushed through the line. That's kind of the deal. But at the end of the day, I mean, Flexbone teams play in a four down at the high school level. I mean, there's not much of a difference to me. I think you have to find ways to stop it. Team to have been able to kind of submarine it, get under it, find ways to stop it. I think this is more of a reaction of this is a really successful play on yard, but it's not, you can't base an offense off of it. People are going to have to figure out how to deal with it. Right. I mean, it is Philly's the only team to fully master it. You mentioned Buffalo there. And that's honestly a Josh Allen problem where every time he snaps the ball. As an offensive lineman, you're taught to step forward. And that's what this play is all about. Just leverage and moving forward. And Josh Allen takes his giant body and moves it backwards instead of forwards. It's something as simple as that. He falls steps every time he does the push. And I mean, he could be more successful. I'm not saying that they would be as good as the Eagles for all the reasons that you mentioned there. But it did bring up an interesting point. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers, they signed Desmond Watson. And if that name is familiar to some of you, that's because he's been seen on social media because he's the giant Florida Gator at like what, for 50. Yeah. Do you see more teams kind of going? I mean, obviously, this is probably on the heavy and literally in Watson's case. But like, do you see more teams kind of going and like for that Vince Will for type, that snacks Harrison type to come in on third and short and then to have to stop this play? And I mean, Desmond Watson might make a career out of it. Well, what I think is hilarious is that like the Buccaneers were literally like, we signed him for this. And like from the beginning, we're just like, yeah, this is the largest human being in the NFL right now. We'll figure out what perfect weight he needs to be at, probably around four or about. But they would put him in Vita Bay next to each other and be like, we canceled the touch push on around. I've got to have a Vita Bay. I completely forgot about Vita Bay as if they didn't have a giant guy already. Right. And so like they probably had the most success against it, probably just because Vita Bay is just like basically trying to stop a rhino, which is impossible. So to me, I think it's, I do think like if you are on, on their schedule, you probably are thinking of ways, how can we get bigger in that position? I don't think it be, look, we're probably making a mountain out of a molehill when we talk about the touch push, but it is the largest story. It is a big deal. It almost got canceled. I think really the argument here is it wasn't even about player health. There really wasn't that many injuries. Just because the collision is almost like a rugby scrunch. They're just interlonged. Right. So it wasn't necessarily that. I really think that it was just the batting average was too high on it. And people were trying to get rid of it. But I think even deeper, it's about can you push somebody further, can an offensive lineman pick? It's the funny story. There's a great story of Mike Leach had where he said, well, what if we just got the largest person on our team? And we had a little person. And we just threw him over the end of which only Mike Leach could ever get. It might have worked. You know what Mike Leach? Can you throw a human over like it too? It's just a clown show when you start thinking about it. But the argument kind of like you go down the gravel of that is like, can an offensive lineman pick somebody up and carry them over? Can we push that? So it opens up. It's not-- I don't think it's necessarily about this play. It's kind of how is this the ruling going to be looked at overall? But it's so funny because when you are on top, everybody guns for you. Because the NFL is such like it is a-- if you think about it, it's a parody leak because of the hard cap because of it. So any kind of edge anybody can get, they're going to try and do it. And if it means that we eliminate a play that is successful for somebody that we might see in the playoffs, we're all for it. Let's get rid of it. Let's get rid of it. And I mean, again, I'm a Chiefs fan. It's harder because the Eagles have been so successful with it. And it feels like some people have sour grapes because they just won the Super Bowl. But for all the reasons why we say you could get rid of it, those are real reasons. But I'm a big fan of what we're talking about. Because it's all just trench talk. Last week, the protector of the year award was announced Andrew Whitworth and Deon Dawkins. Andrew Whitworth, the former Rams and Bengals tackle. Deon Dawkins, the Bill's tackle. They were big advocates for this. Obviously, you're on the wrong side of the weight scale here. But it is the last recognized position group because your defensive is in deepened alignment. They can get your sacks and win deep into player of the year, linebackers, and they get interceptions and whatever. And obviously all your receivers, they get all the sexy touchdowns and yards. And now there's an award to recognize the big dogs. How important is it? I think it's critical for the game. Going forward. This is probably long overdue. I think the real problem here is there is not an analytic stat point, a metric that you can actually use that judges how well an offensive lineman plays a lot of times, too. It's kind of like defensive bat. It's the argument with PFF about defensive acts, of like in a zone. OK, we're in a zone. A receiver catches it. So we're going to give that to the closest defender. Well, the close fender, depending on the covers to have his back, you know what I mean? So it's like it's very subjective. There is really no metric. I think the best one that I've seen and a lot of people use is ESPN has that pass rush and then run blocking win rates, kind of talking about one on one's and do they win their blocks. But again, if you talk too often to blame and any of them, they will tell you like the protection scheme, how it works. Sometimes they're accredited with a sack, even though that wasn't their guy to protect. It wasn't called into protection. The running bag messes up goes the wrong way because my argument has always been if you followed me along on social media at all. Anytime I can watch a running bag get blown up in protection, I probably am going to put it on the timeline and with that in all caps is make the running back block. I'm gonna to I'm gonna watch it to even as an offensive moment, but yeah, yeah, he's blocking that practice. And I'm running back. So to me, I think like, you know, guys like brain and thorn over a trench warfare has done a really good job of kind of creating a niche of kind of around Duke Mary, Mary wetler or whether, anyway, big Duke, I know that he's in Dallas. He's the one that's right over there across from the star. He's done a really good job of kind of that's where the O line kind of gathering. They they they meet in the middle of the summer every year. Those guys, I think, have done a good job of kind of highlighting that. Anytime you can watch an offensive lineman talk about offensive lineman play, you need to do it because it is one of the most technical positions in football and having someone that's going to be voted by these guys. Trust me, these guys know who are the best people. Yeah. These are the guys who should be voting for it. And I think it's I think it's warranted and it's it's really fun. I wish I had more analysis other than yes, like this is just yes. Finally, there's something and like even in college, they have the Joe Moore award and that's for full offensive lineman. So I even think individualizing and say no, this is the best offensive lineman and whether it's a left tackle or center, it's probably going to be one of those two guys because I'm not seeing a bunch of left guards getting it every year, unless it's Quentin Nelson or something like that, unless there's just like a generational talent right there and not a ton of those guys either play tackle or center because of those reasons. But it's just like finally, everybody else has their thing whether it's fantasy or gambling, that you can go better than other over I under whatever else, it's just more fun to be a receiver or quarterback or running back. Now it's just like I'm happy to be fat like it's so right. It's rewarded like now there's this thing like a literal tangible thing that you can go and grab to say like I was the best in the world at being the biggest. Yeah, and I think like to me that's that's important because the O line typically is one of those positions you don't think about until your quarterbacks on the ground. Exactly. And to me, I think that giving them something is important and before I get in trouble, it's Duke, Mini, Weather, O line masterminds, I don't know why I had a brain fart on that. So I want to make sure I get them a shout out because those guys in brain and Thorne do a really good job with the O line. Right, right. And we kind of expect offensive lineman to live what our quarterbacks do is like give the credit and take the blame like they're going to take the blame for the sacks because no, you gave up the sack because clearly the edger usher got around you, but also you're not going to get the credit because the past went four yards downfield and you just him the guy up. Nobody's deal. Keep it moving. Well, in the one to your point with sacks, I think one of the one of the areas where analytics has really helped us out has been to kind of make sacks a more of a quarterback stat. Look, the one sack where the guy gets blown by, we see this all time, my guy gets blown by guy's swing nose tackle swims defensive in just ripped past the tackle makes a sack. Let's say it's less than a second after the snap. Okay, that O line guy got beaten. Right, but we're talking about the quarterbacks holding on the ball for two and a half seconds, three seconds in the NFL man. And that's a sack. That's a quarterbacks stat that that often's coordinated in college of play or the quarterbacks getting set. And that's actually one of those metrics too. That guys are starting to pay attention to, especially at the GM spot. More and more in these quarterbacks, it's like, okay, well, how many sacks are you taking? That was one of the knocks on shooter Sanders was, okay, he's holding the ball a long time. He's taking a lot of sacks. Yes, the Colorado offensive line is atrocious. If you watch the Buffalo's, I'm above sand. I watch them. It's bad. But there's a lot of times to where you're just like, we got to get the ball out. And so that's one of those metrics. I'm excited. Let's transition. The main event of this show is we're bringing on one of my really good friends. His name is Bobby Peters. He writes, alert the post on sub stack. Make sure you follow it. He is an author of, this is not a lie. 34 books. Look, I've written six books. That was hard. I, you know, people are written zero. So people are always like weird. And the next book and I'm like, I write long form articles every week. It's really super hard to write it. He's written 34. He's amazing. He's a really good friend of mine. I love sitting down with him at the combine. I love getting to talk to him about these offensive trends. And that's what we're talking about today. We are talking about NFL offensive trends heading into this season. We're going to cover everything from McVey all the way to McVaniels. We're going to do KOC up in Minnesota. And don't forget Liam Colman. I know we're saying all these machine hammock. Hey guys, so I got to throw in Johnson. Been John says, well, he's going to tell us everything we need to know about the NFL offense is heading into next season. So let's get into it. Let's talk to Bobby. Again, like I said, Bobby's one of my good friends in football. You are an expert in this. Like we mentioned, there's 34 different books that you've written, which I think is amazing. So the fur, you gave me a list of trends that you're seeing because you watch film probably as much as anybody else and you're tapped into what's going on in the NFL. One of the things that you talked about was screened the screen design explosion. But I think a lot of people when they think screens, they're thinking perimeter screens are POs. The teams that you listed, commanders, bickeneers, Vikings, they're not running, well, I mean, the commanders are running perimeter screens. Come on, Cliff Kingsbury is going to get a bubble screen in there. But it's they're designing some of these different things. So why are these three teams? What did they? What did these guys do that other teams just are not doing and other teams are probably going to steal? So that when you talk about the explosion, like we talk about the design of these screens, where you've got your you've got so many different categories of screens that teams have been exploring to like, you know, let's talk about we'll talk about the commanders first. They they're usage of tunnel screens like receiver screens not talking, you know, the bubbles in the now's the walls are like the line offensive lineman are getting out. You're faking, you know, certain types of run actions and protections. Though they I think they called they called tunnel screens, you know, 37 or 38 times last year and they have data modest average with it, but they did create some explosives with it. And they the the you know, the creativity that Cliff Kingsbury used when designing these was just so much fun to study. I mean, they were they were faking just their normal, you know, like quick dropback protections like the pat the place I tackled and got a pat pass set for account and then get out quick. They would fake outside zone one way where the backside of the offensive line would take three hard steps and then get out. So they took out yeah, and then and then they would be you know, they would fake their trap actions, their GT counter actions and slip the backside of the offensive line through back to the other side. They were doing some really creative design elements too, but I think, you know, taking a step back all these other teams like the Buckeneers, you know, the Packers and the dolphins even too, what really really stood out to me was just the execution of these screens too. I think teams have, you know, how defenses have tried to stop them over the years. I think offenses have kind of countered by changing their rules upfront a little bit and the rules for the perimeter guys too. And then obviously a focus on the traditional details of the screens as well. But yeah, those that was probably this whole off season, all the different teams I've studied. That's one of been that's been one of my favorite aspects to see about how teams have grown in their design and execution of these. Boy, you watch the commanders off me. I mean, the command people need to understand, man, this is not Cliff Kingsbury's run. This is going to be Lin Anthony Lin's run game combined with some of that air raid elements. It's really been built in to this gap scheme. I mean, if you know, these perimeter screens, these tunnel screens, I call them jailbreak screens. If you are going one way and then now you have to stop and go the other way and that thing's supposed to hit vertically and you basically just set everybody up like to me, that's that's tough. Wide zone throw back to a jailbreak screen or you kid me, then you have, you know, with the GT that these these gap schemes, which are going to trigger these linebackers down and then you're getting that horizontal flow that they're able to then backtrack, man, you're right because you watch the commanders and it is, it is a masterpiece. Those guys do a really, really good job. Yeah, I think, you know, when, you know, from the offensive, from the offensive standpoint, when you're, you know, designing these screens, it's like, all right, can my guard, can my uncovered guard get up to a linebacker fast enough? You know, and a lot of times they can't. Those linebackers have leverage and if they have, you know, they read the quarterback's eyes or see how that ball is getting out quick for those tunnel screens, they can, they can beat the guard to that spot. So what now what you're talking about with the outside zone fake and with the GT counter fakes is now we're instead of just asking that guard, okay, go beat him to that spot. All right, now we've got some deception built in. We can get ourselves, you know, we can create leverage for that block now. So that's that's exactly what those two, two things bring to the table for that. Right. And see him what Kevin O'Connell was able to do last year with Sam Darnell and just resurrecting his career. Now he's in Seattle, but now he's going to have JJ McCarthy. We're talking, we're talking a lot about this, these screen designs and everything. What is What do Kevin O'Connell add to his offense? That's basically what Sean McVeigh and Kyle Shanahan are doing in San Francisco and LA respectively. What did he add that that's really making it special and might make it easier for the rookie effectively a rookie next year. Kevin O'Connell does an outstanding job of marrying all of his dropback pass concepts together, particularly in the five-step family. What they do is they build off of each concept builds off the next one and then they also have cags and adjustments within it that they that they use each week like some specific examples are like the two man choice concept. A lot of NFL teams will run that where they give an option route for the underneath guy. One way to protect that is run what I call the bank pivot concept. It's just a generic way of of calling it. So what the guy who usually runs the choice route or the option underneath he'll sit down and try to grab that hook defender and then now the the receiver that was running the vertical element of the choice concept now he'll wrap around and kind of run a mini dig route replace that hook defender that might be trying to squeeze what they think is the choice route. And then there's other there's other examples of concepts off that too, but building all that stuff together and creating open windows down the field for their playmaker Sam Darnell love to push the ball down field last year. And I think creating easy explosive opportunities for Jay, Jim McCarthy next year will be a first and foremost on Kevin O'Connell's list of tasks to come up with this fall. Yeah, to me you watch the Vikings I try any time I'm watching a defense if they play the Vikings that's a tape I'm going to watch just because what I love what O'Connell does he makes it very easy on the quarterback. I think too like what you were saying a lot of those vendors into the middle of the field that's a trend that you're seeing a lot of times within this big bay Shanahan is just that you're going to get these vendors back in. I love the fact that you talked about his five step drop which is pure drop back because one of the biggest knocks on kind of that make Bay Shanahan, especially Shanahan is just you just don't have a good drop back passing game. But when you watch the Vikings they're able to do a lot of these drop backs make everything look the same they're doing it even at a 21 person now 12 person now being able to get these vertical shots. And so to me when you watch the Vikings that's a fun offense and I don't think that it's going to not be quarterback friendly so like to your point feel it's like how is Jay Jay McCarthy going to kind of he's essentially a rookie quarterback how is that going to be I think with what the way that he designs it like you said marrying all these looks getting guys open and then do. They've got one of the best duos in the NFL with with Jetta and Addison so to me I think that that's it you know speaking of like trying to make that transition well let's talk about another kind of make they disciple you know you mentioned the buck and ears in the way that they're designing screams that's going to be Liam Cohen you know. 8 ETN lack not will this past season but the season prior was the 8th best receiving running back according to feel bitch pro in in 2023 talk to me a little bit about where he's a little different and kind of that expansion of having those two running backs in the bucket years like how do you envision him. It kind of involving these screens but also kind of making the light easier for Trevor Lawrence yeah and the Liam Cohen did an awesome job I think so I just finished up a bucket years manual and I think I spent maybe 40 total pages on their different screen variations with the they so what he did a tremendous job everybody runs some sort of our running back swing screen right to say you got like a like a. You know kind of like a dirty bunch trips to the field running back in the back so you got a 4 by 1 look out like 10 or 11 personnel running backs going to swing to that side quarterbacks and take like a quick 3 and get that ball out quick the receivers are going to kind of it's like basically a bubble screen before the right back. Well what what Liam Cohen did last year was they would they would do use what I call exchange blocking so what teams and correct me if I'm wrong you're the defensive expert so what defense is try to do to that stuff is you want to you want to attack the blockers outside hips. Force that ball back into the suit right you don't want that ball get to the perimeter you do not want that ball get to the sideline well what what the box and Liam Cohen did a really good job of was using what I called exchange blocking on the perimeter so number one will crack number 2 right and then number 2 receiver will crack the number 3 defender and that number 3 receiver will kind of loop around and take the corner so now what they've done is they've created an alley between the corner and the nickel for that running back to to basically just sprint to right so now that linebacker that Mike or that will that's got a pursuit. Coming from the other side you know the coming from the box instead of just kind of you know meeting him in front of number 3 because the Mike pushed him back in now he's got to chase him all the way out to the outside so that's that's something that really works well just a small adjustment right it's not you know it's nothing groundbreaking but it's just a small adjustment that like it shows how well he understands defensive rules and what defenses are trying to do and and how to really take the advantage back and he that's just one example you're specific for running backs ETN I remember I actually wrote a 2022 Jaguar. 2022 Jaguars manual back when duck Peterson had that offense moving relatively well and they ran a bunch of running backs when screens back then too so won't be something new for for ETN to to get used to and then they used the running backs so another concept that they they game plan and design really well were jet sweeps and they would use they would get into pony personnel and they would kind of use one of the running backs is like the slot the jet sweep guy right and then whether be under center gun you have different backfield actions different different blocking schemes up front that you know so that's what I'm going to do is I'm going to do that. So I'm going to run that you know similar to running backs when there were a lot of adjustments in the jet sweep package that allowed them to average I think they were pushing close to 10 yards and attempt when they call jet sweeps which is pretty pretty good for the NFL I don't think I've ever studied a team that's done that well with them before and they had a decent amount of attempts to add to so wasn't like they just had you know one or two nice you know they just rip off one or two big place from it but yeah those are just the first two things that popped into my head with usage for running back like that. You know speaking of if you're if you're listening and you're like what's a pony package pony package is basically two running backs on the field so it's 21 personnel 20 personnel I used to label that is like 21 a 20 a that's what pony is I've also heard it like amigos because you got you got to you got to run backs to your point with the perimeter screens I think look as a defensive coach especially when you when you're coming up in the spread and you're learning when you start treating those receivers like like gaps like linemen and gaps. You start seeing the game a little bit different on the perimeter how do I fit the perimeter screen you know that was a big adjustment for the bubble screen if you go all the way back to the 2010s bubble perimeter screens especially out of trips are getting really big. Okay well what happens when the nickel works outside studies special became real many whatever you call it became really popularized as a split field quarters coverage right for trips so how do you do that well now I you know you see it with one. You see it with one see you know loop to around now we've got that their guy now the Mike's got to work through trash which is exactly what you said kind of how we're doing that with these exchange blockings all there all this is again it's you're you're just playing with angles if a guy's going to be inside. Exactly and we feel like we can get it I also think too if the you get these aggressive nickels that know they have to fit these perimeter screens really quickly we'll use their aggression against them now I can just go year hold a guy. And now we can kind of just freeze and then I can move up to the top it also expands your screen and go gain all of these I think I think the two the two running back stuff if we're going to already have to run you back on roster and they're both going to be pretty good why can we not put them both on the on the field the same time I think the game is another example of somebody that does this in Miami with their with a chain I mean a chain running a jet sweep is an is an absolute nightmare which brings us this is a great segue into what you were talking about these pony packages are creating these split back gun runs as starting point for an offense I mean if you watch the dolphins I mean most of their play is that are explosive are coming from some way that they're getting to running back and it really challenges defensive to okay well what personnel package are we going on if you put in 21 a well okay do I need to stay in nickel do we go and base if we go and base and you got to do like a chain they can run and maybe even be able to go out and catch a pass down field well now I want to be a nickel so you explain to me kind of where where the basis of this is and why you see this is a trend heading into this season yes so the split back stuff I started to see really pick up with the packers I think it might have been like week two or week three I think it was when Jordan loved one out they were trying to just expand their run game and you know when they had Malik Wilson there they you know you can use some quarterback design stuff too but at the same time you know they're not going to read they're not going to read every you know every defense and every snap to so what they had wanted to do was expand their base run game to you split backs and in my 24 green day packers game planning book I I show as many of these concepts I can because split backs is something the NFL has hasn't really you know done since the under center days of the early 2000s right the Mike March years and all that stuff you know the Patriots back in the day ran a bunch I remember with Tom Brady to back in the Charlie White Sarah but you know some the NFL really hasn't seen a ton of you know recently outside of maybe some read option type stuff but you know using split backs in the run game it's it's a it's a great way to create create like we talked about before create more leverage create better angles for the guys up front but at the same time it allows the offense to use some deception you know there were some a lot of packers I think it was their game against the 49ers at home where they I think they started off the game with basically split zone right so they're in 21 personnel split backs the running split zone with the tight end kind of in like a back and fourth motion but before they get to that they faked like a spinner action like love would spin around it kind of fake like a behind the back jet sweep from one of the backs and then they would hand the ball off going split zone back the other way so just some some real nice I can't even try to manipulate you know like secondary defenders to try to get the nickel the bump out of the box to keep you know a nice six on six count you know for the offensive line in the tight end you know against the the four down and the two backers, you know, that's really what a lot of that stuff was trying to do. And they did a great job of it. Like the Nick, in that game, the Niners nickel was just flying out of the box, the strong safety was nowhere to be found, you know, fit in the run too. So that stuff was something I noticed. The Packers use a lot really well. The Bucket ears use with their GT counter schemes a lot too. They use the second back as kind of a misdirection, you know, go off first slice or slider, whatever you want to call it. And that those are those are some of the biggest examples that jumped out to me. But I bet that's a trend that we see continue and even grow further. You know, with with more teams doing it and then with more concepts being incorporated with that for next year. Yeah, that's what's really interesting seeing like teams like Lyons who have lean more with two of their running backs, but lean more into the run game. And so after what we've seen this last year, Philadelphia, they've run the hell out of the ball. I mean, it's just ridiculous what they've done specifically with Sequan and then what Detroit did. How does what we're talking about with these splitback sets? How does this affect the run game specifically with teams like Detroit, who are switching off of a package or excuse me with Ben Johnson moving to a new offense coordinator. Where are we moving with the run game that we saw last year have such a great year. Detroit's a tricky one, especially with Ben Johnson leaving like they, their usage, they wouldn't use both on the field of time together. They they're their run game. It starts it starts and ends with outside zone. But so they're they're usage of their usage of the of Gibbs and Montgomery together is real interesting because you know, you think of David Montgomery as the sledgehammer, right? He's going to come through, he's going to pound it, he's going to run the duos, the inside zones, the gap schemes and then Gibbs is more the outside zone, the crack toss guy. They they mixed it up that both running backs would run both schemes. You know, they wouldn't try to, you know, pigeonhole the guys were kind of create tendencies for defense to try to figure out. So they obviously in the past game, you know, if they're going to run like each choice, you know, like an option right out of the backfield for for the running back, it's going to be Gibbs just because he's so explosive and you know, if they're going to feature a guy in the past game, it's going to be him, but at the same time, David Montgomery called a bunch of check downs, you know, within the timing of the offense too. So they did they showed or they they were more on the other side where they showed how you can manage the two running back workload without having them unnecessarily on the field at the same time and without pigeonholing them into specific roles. Yeah, I like I think one of the like you said Bobby and this is it's a great, you know, Felix is asking about the Lions because in our minds, it would be like, okay, well, that's the next step you can add that, but I also think in you are they certainly come. Oh yeah, and into your argument though, I do think that there is kind of merit to being like, yeah, that's cute, but this is what we do. We're more of an extra tackle team. We're going to put an extra tackle on there. We're going to use more jet sweep with I'm on Ross St Brown or James Williams where we're going to use the speed there for the jet action and not necessarily because let's be honest, they could put they could put both of them on the field and run pretty much any of these plays and it would work, but like you said, everything starts and ends with that wide zone and we're now kind of post wide zone being like the hot trend because I think if we sit here and we're like, hey, outside zone, be looking for it. Everybody's like, yeah, I know everybody's running the shanian offense. But one of the things that you brought up in this when I asked you the question of what are some trends is this will declared outside zone? I'm guessing this is a weak side, something I have noticed as well watching more film of teams going to the short side, defenses are having to kind of do some different things which we can get into, but in layman's terms, explain to me what is a will declared outside zone. So it's actually a strong side run. So typically I'm completely wrong. There we go. That's all right. No, no, but this is what makes them fun. So so typically, so say you got, you know, it's the best way to describe this is like a 21 personnel eye formation. Okay, so we're running to we're running to the formation strengths. You know, typically you've got, you know, the offensive line is working to the mic linebacker, right? And then, you know, the backside tackle, you know, depending on the scheme, we'll either sift the backside defense event or he'll work up to the will basically who's more dangerous. Usually it's the will because he's scraping over the top and that backside defense event is left unblocked, right? Well, against too high looks, you know, you don't think you're wasting a guy, but you can you can have, you know, whether it's the full backer tight end, work up to the safety, you know, as the force player, however you want to do it, right? Well, if you want, these will declared runs, now we're blocking that backside tackle. We're squeezing on the backside, you know, if we've got a three-tack on the back side, the backside guards me a squeeze hinge too. And so we're going to block the will. We're going to, the center's combination is going to work to the will linebacker. We're going to work back or combinations are going to work back. So instead of trying to push for a mic who's scraping hard place side that center, okay, now after they get the nose, he's going to work back for the will. And what this allow and what what now one thing you have to do is your place side receiver has to be usually in a cut split to be able to take, you know, a safety that might be in the box or take, you know, the most dangerous man, he can't just lock up on the corner like he normally would. But what it allows the offense to do is number one, if the defense wants to spill everything and get to the edge quickly, now we're getting to the edge quickly and we're working all of our combinations back so that we can kind of seal off the defense, right? You're kind of creating a wall, right? But also at the same time, if defense is, you know, want to set that hard edge and like, and you maybe lock up the, you know, use a stunts or something, you kind of to kind of lock up. Yeah, you see a ton of to stop zone runs. Okay, well, these will declared runs because the angles and the leverage for the offensive line is better working back to the will instead of the mic. Now they can pick these things up better. Now we can crease the defense. The cutback lanes are are more are a lot bigger. And the Miami Dolphins for a few years now have really pioneered different variations of these to really push, you know, Achan has had a ton of big plays on this. It talked to me about the fullback. So it was a fullback. Basically, we're going stretch. So essentially like tell me if I'm wrong here because I was obviously wrong about him. We are here. We'll go. You'll get the broadboard backwards. So I'll cut you some slack. Right. It's like deep into brain. I see will and I'm like week, week, week. So anyway, with the fullback is he essentially like if they're going full stretch frontside, their water falling backside is his job to really kind of lead into that cutback? It depends on the variation. So that's the beautiful thing about the shaning and guys is they have so many different variations of lead outside zone strong. So they they gain plenty of different variations for the different fronts of their game. Yeah. And I to me, I remember when I was at Baylor, obviously completely different system, but they ran something similar where half the lines running some sort of a zone, especially wide zone, the other half is fallback. And then they would insert in. That's why I asked about that because to me, when you can get basically everybody over pursuing and then you're just kind of chopping up that stuff to me, this to me is like the scary stuff, right? Now we're we're to the variation of the variation. And it's like they've got it. And now you can get a 20 person now. You can add those numbers. One of the other trends that we've been seeing. So kind of like we're now going over this zone defense has completely changed the passing picture. Feel it's and I have talked ad nauseum about my homes of just inability to throw down field. Last year, the big thing was these kind of you call them enhance check downs. I think I call them escort screens, different things like that. Talk to me how now that we've got a basically a bunch of zones, people are and we're playing instead of playing hard traps, meaning that these defenses are not taking the flat hard. They're kind of zoning out. There's what we call soft squat in Tampa, where you're just kind of getting depth that we call it cough, curl over flat. We're not taking flat, no cover zones. Now that we kind of have that, talking to me about these enhanced check downs that you're seeing from the NFL landscape. Yeah. So I think specifically you're talking about those lead swings. So what that does is, right, you've got your flat defenders that are usually responsible for the flats. You've got your hook defenders that are responsible for the hook. Well, what if you've got two offensive players in the flat? Usually one, usually one flat defender can cover them, but somebody ran a wrong route. Right. Well now if that guy's a lead blocker and he's going to turn up and block and lead for that second guy, well now you've got to push your hook defender to the flat as well. So it really stresses and not forces the defense to change their rules, but they have to have some way to account for this. It's a different look. The offense is still have ways to try to push the ball downfield with this. This is a common like the Packers two years ago. In 2023, they did a good job of incorporating this lead swing with their dagger concepts. So they would read that dig, right? If that hook defender stuck in that window, they would throw the check, the two on one, check down to the flat. If that hook defender flew out to the lead swing, now we've got a nice big window for the dig route coming behind it. So it really just changes the cons. It forces the defense to kind of bump one assignment over essentially. You're creating quads. Yes. And if it doesn't matter whether you're covered three or your quarters or split build, if you create quads, it's going to be a massive problem. Yep, exactly. Well, and I'll ask this from a team's specific standpoint. I don't know if you can see the logo over my shoulder, but I think we all kind of want to see my homes bring that light show back because Andy Reed has some of that the most interesting concepts that we've seen ever. And so like, what do the chiefs have to do to bring that back? Because they kind of, this is the only defense that has stopped my homes and read. And it's been for a couple years now. How do they now overcome that? That's a great question. I honestly don't know if I have a great answer. I think obviously, defences, you know, for years, my homes just gashed defenses with big plays, right? I remember back to I think it was his first year starting. I think one of them running like four virts against the Raiders back in the Coliseum. I remember it's like seeing the baseball sand. You just hit and Tyree kill up the seam. You know, stuff like like just they were so good at creating vertical shots down. on the field for years that teams are just like, hey, we're gonna play a soft quarters. We're gonna play a Tampa two. We're gonna take the stuff away. So, I think in order to get back to that, I think the chiefs need to find ways, you know, obviously try to find ways to continue to push the out ball down the field, but find ways to enhance that check down threat too. Right now, if we're really, if we're getting 10 plus yards on the check down, defense is gonna be like, all right, we can't give them the easy stuff anymore, right? But instead of the chiefs check downs are going for two or three yards, defense is gonna be like, hey, we're gonna take that all day. So figuring out, okay, yeah, we want to find more ways to push the ball down the field, but we also need to find ways to make these check downs hurt the defense more to however they want to do that. And it read is certainly capable of the creativity of finding ways to do it. Right. The only reason I answer, because I mean, Kansas City is always like a year ahead of everyone, it's not just because it's the chiefs, but they have experienced this for a year longer than just about everybody else. So now everybody's gonna have to start doing what Kansas City did and even more so with the talent permitting in whomever their coach is. So, exactly. - Well, and I think with the chiefs, I think we got word delay to year on what they were planning on doing with all the injuries and figuring what worthy can do. I'm interested to see, I think too, just because of the running game. And the chiefs, really, their run game's more like a high school, but a college run game, a lot of trap, a lot of y-off. It's not super aggressive, but it's a lot of eye candy. It's a lot of guys, if you mix in too many guys or you don't have enough guys, you play too light of a box, they're gonna punish you. But transitioning into that, because I think one of the things that we saw and people were freaking out about it at the beginning of last year was the running game. Right, these games are a lot shorter. There's a lot less time of position, a possession. And so there's less scoring. Do you think we are kind of now where the pendulum is swinging back to more run centric games where we're seeing more 21 personnel. I think you've mentioned it now multiple times, 12 personnel, more lineman on the field. Do you feel like we kind of have the answers to spread? Now can we manipulate the run game? Do you feel like we're going to see kind of the run game expansion in year two here going forward in 2025? - Yeah, I think in general, I think if you look at the top offences in the NFL, all of them have robust run games, and it's one of the most part. I think that it alleviates stress on quarterbacks, having to try to decipher all these crazy Vic Fangio type coverages and all the different stuff defenses are trying to do. Right, it simplifies things from that standpoint. You're not asking him to do as much. You're asking him to lean on the run game early down, to get yourself in third manageable. So it keeps you have a schedule on that. And if defenses want to start off in two high shells, like I know you obviously quarters is a big part of it, but they'll spend and get in the covers re-2. You know, a lot of the, you know, all the teams will do that. So, you know, but at the same time that safety is going to come down late. And there's an offense. If you can find run schemes and find, you figure out where that guy is going to fit late, you know, and try to, you know, scheme your way around it. I think there's, it's just, it's basically, like, you know, personnel wise too, it makes sense, but also scheme wise, if defenses are going to do this offense, it's just have to be able to, right? And the run game, you know, historically in the NFL, I mean, all levels of football, if you can run the ball, you're generally going to put yourself in a good position to succeed. I think it just makes a lot of sense for where everything's at right now that the run game, you know, should be the priority, should be a priority for teams to think about. Yeah, I think another coach specific team specific question I'd have would be about Kyle Shanahan and the San Francisco 49s. We talk a lot about the outside zone, but now they're losing Debo Samuel, they've paid Brock Peri, so some things are going to start shifting and changing over the next couple of years, maybe not immediately. But what do you expect to change now for Kyle Shanahan and then moving forward if things don't work out, kind of like how they were last year. I mean, obviously the offense was still incredibly efficient, but they didn't make it to the playoffs. So obviously they want to improve on certain things and now they have, they're missing some of the pieces from the classic 49ers that we know from last couple of years. Yeah, I think, I think getting back to the run game for them is a huge part of kind of getting back to their bones. I think over the recent couple of years, you know, they used to, Kyle Shanahan used to be a big play action guy, right? He was kind of the king of like the, you know, the play action stuff years ago. They've shifted a lot of, you know, Brock Peri has ranked towards the bottom of the league and play action attempts over the last few years. They've kind of transitioned almost a full drop back offense. And yeah, they've done a lot of good stuff in the drop back game. And I made that a focus of my 24 game planning book on them. They did a lot of creative stuff there. But at the same time, you're putting a lot on your quarterback, you're putting a lot on your skill guys on the outside and you're putting a lot on your offensive line. I think this past year, I think what they kind of lost a little bit was that running game edge, right? The nastiness in the run game, but also some of their creativity with their different zone variations and their different gaps that they've been doing. So I think kind of like a renewed focus on the run game. And then maybe even like beefing up some of the play action stuff off of that, I think it helped them mitigate some of those losses and also help out the offensive line too. Yeah. And Bobby, you know, you mentioned it kind of in an earlier second, but I really believe in you, you pass the score, you run to win. And we're starting to see that with this iteration, I agree with you too. When you watch supporting Niners that run game that used to be just so dynamic, you would turn it on to watch them, hey, how are they getting here? How are they getting there? You know, the creativity of it, I think they kind of got away from it. Like, again, we're sitting here talking about Kyle Shanahan and you're telling me about his dropback past game. Yeah, that was good last year, but it's like, but you know as well as I do, if that's what the central focus of this offensive, that's not going to be a great offense. They were still able, and I think they were top 10 DBOA last year, even with Bernie, not having all of those weapons. So again, Bobby, thank you for coming on. You can catch Bobby again at Alert the Post and then on Amazon. But tell everybody again where they can find you and kind of what you're working on, what's coming out here in the next couple of months. Yeah, so the best place to find all my work is at my substacks. So it's alertthepost.com. And at the top, you'll have a banner where you can, there's a link to all my books, my Amazon author page. You can also find my books by just Googling my name too, that my Amazon page should come up towards the top of that. And then also like on my substack, obviously I've got a lot of articles on there too that I've read. But what I've done is I've created a cut up library. So every week I add at least one complete season cut up for one of the teams I've studied to that library. So I've got quite a list now, you know, going on two years of of cut ups that I've added there. So a lot of video resources there. I'm very active on X at B underscore, Peter's 12. And you know, I post a lot of stuff there. And I actually, I've got a new coming up this week potentially. So I don't know when this is going to air, but tomorrow, Wednesday or Thursday, my fucking years manual will be live as well. I know we talked about some of the of the Cohen stuff already. And that book was a ton of fun to write. So that book should be live here pretty soon. Thanks for joining us today. Again, Bobby Peters, one of my good friends. I trust him. When we walk around at the combine, he's out there handing out his books to the different coaches. All those coaches know him. All those coaches in the NFL make sure to pay attention. And don't think for a second that they're not also getting a copy of those books and look at them. So make sure to check out all the Bobby stuff if you're into office. But also to me. I mean, defensive coaches were always like, you know, no the enemy. It's, you know, the art of war is like one of the biggest defensive books ever, everybody quotes it all the time. So this is a good example of a understanding your opponent. And then here's some things that are coming down the pipe. So thanks again for Bobbie to come on. If you enjoy this episode and want to help support the podcast, please subscribe. Make sure to leave a rating and review that just helps us build a community. Stay up to date with match quarters and let's talk ball podcasts by subscribing to matchquarters.com. That's my hub, you know, Bobby's is alert. The post mine is match quarters.com. You can follow me on X at the underscore coach underscore a and on blue sky IG TikTok and YouTube at match quarters and make sure to follow my guy Felix over there on IG and X at Felix are Johnson. Hey, and let's keep talking ball. Hey.