Let's Talk Ball!: College Offensive Trends With Dan Casey

(upbeat music) - Well, one of my favorite football players from being a Denver Bronco fan was Vaughn Miller. Vaughn Miller was just, he killed it. I was really excited to see what he could do with the bills. And it up being off-ingered. It looks like Felix. We are headed in the same direction with Joey Boza. That's one of the big headlines this week as we start off our Let's Talk ball podcast. We're talking Joey Boza hurt again with the calf. And then what are we doing? What's the outlet? - I hate Vaughn Miller and Joey Boza. It doesn't really matter. I'm joking. - No, it is. - You're a chief fan speaking to a chief fan, sorry. - It is kind of, it's not funny, but it is like kind of ironic that like you tried to get a better version of Vaughn Miller and you're running into the same issues. But I mean, hopefully Joey Boza can be that guy. But once the season starts, I mean, we're sitting here in June, he's hurting now. What do you think Vaughn for those plans is with Joey Boza to get him on the field and effective? - Yeah, this is 100% a pitch count. He's on a pitch count. Probably gonna get 40 plays a game. And then when we get to the playoffs, or I think when we were talking to our pre show meeting, like when they play a big time team, he's gonna have to play. I still think he's got, I still think he's got gas left. But we are now, the bills have a sneaky, sneaky really good defensive line. You have Russo, who's been really good. Epinessa is gonna be a really good rotation piece with Boza. Don't forget the inside guys with Oliver, who is essentially the quintessential quick three in a four down. You also have Dej Kwan Jones, who's been a relatively good runstopper for them. The guy in all of this that nobody's talking about is Hoyt and his versatility coming from the Rams. He's only a season removed from having the most coverage reps at 4-8 defensive end in the NFL. They were running more simulated pressures last year. So this is something that I see, maybe some different third down packages from Babbage. So that's what I think. I think it's a pitch count. I think it's 40 plays a game to keep him healthy for the playoffs. Yeah, that's what's where Buffalo's kind of at right now. When you have that kind of quarterback, every ancillary piece, especially like Joey Boza is kind of your, can you get him in and be as effective as possible, especially in the regular season. Now, shifting gears, Jaya, we talked about him a little bit restructuring his contract. So what are you thinking the packer's secondary is gonna look like next year? They're just kind of like one of the packages is just that weird team offensively and defensively where they're just kind of, everybody's just kind of good but kind of not, but they're the packers. So like what is the packers to you? I mean, I guess this will be kind of like a mission statement for their entire team if you're gonna address just their secondary here. Well, it's funny because we've talked before about how they're kind of like an offense. We just got a ton talking about the bills. They're the other team that we don't have a number one receiver. So what does that look like? We're in kind of quarterback purgatory where we think our quarterback is top 10 quarterback, but we're not sure if he's a top 10 quarterback. We can't win playout games. So what are we doing? I think that's the problem with the packers right now is that you have a top 10 offense. They have a top 10 defense, but you wouldn't know it because they're like 8, 9, 10 in that. They were 7th and DVOA last year, according to FTN. They were 9th versus the past. So the secondary was good. I think they got into problems with Keisha on Nixon had to move outside play full time. He did a great phenomenal job. They were trying to figure out with Stokes. They didn't pick up his fifth year. So they were trying to figure out what to do. Obstich at your Alexander, Alexander's off-turt. They brought in Nate Hobbs, which was interesting to me because he played Nickel for the Raiders. But then they were half way was talking about, oh, well, he's actually going to play outside a lot more. OK, so are you going to move Keisha on Nixon? And Bullard was fantastic. And Nickel was not that great. At Deep Safety, Evan Williams, who was also another rookie class, by the way, it reminds me of the chiefs, what was it, 2022? Yes. Ricky Klasswood. It's basically all of them were defense starters. That class, to me, is very much in with that. They had the fourth highest turnover worthy percentage throw with that. They were six in EPA for drawback passes. They had an open rate. But they still had an open rate of 39%. So it's like, they have these stats that are really good. But then they don't know. I don't think that they're in a situation where they can get rid of J. Eurone. I think they said, hey, we'll trade them. If we get something crazy, we-- Something magical back. Right. We have Nixon that we can kick inside. We have Hobbs. And then we can figure out the other corner off of that. When we go play base, because they did play a lot of base, they can have Nixon and Hobbs outside. So I think it was more of a stopgap. If they have him, I think this is a really good defense. I think it gives them options, which is a trend where starting to see we are in the month of trends here on the show. That is a trender starting to see of having options between Big Nickel, regular Nickel, and then having two really solid corners on the outside and base. So that to me is the plan. I don't think he leaves Green Bay. I think they restructure the contract. He's kind of in the late years of his career. So this to me is an interesting team. This is a team to watch out. Because if Jordan Love can figure it out, I think they have a top 10 defense. Jordan Love can figure it out. And they had two 14 win teams in their division. Lions is in the Vikings. Like it was the NFC North was just that division last year. And it was only one 14 win wild card team and NFL history for a reason. Because it's stuff like that just doesn't happen. - Exactly. - Shipping gears to the team that knocked the Packers out of the playoffs, the Philadelphia Eagles. Did they beat them? I don't even know. The Eagles are stupid, I don't care. But Sake 1 Barkley is on the Madden cover. Now we're gonna have to get like a live stream going or something here where I kick your ass in Madden or I'll beat the crap out of the Broncos or whatever we want to do. And we'll put some money on her or something like that. But I'll ask you this primarily. Is the curse real? - I don't know. I don't really believe in this stuff. I know that people track it. And I know I think somebody tweeted out, like I saw somebody was like one of my own two years. I was like, well, this was a good run. I know that there's been some history with these guys not having good years. I look, Sake 1 is Sake 1. And as long as, look, if he gets hurt, they'll blame it on the Madden cover 'cause that's what we're humans. That's what we're going to do. But I just have it really hard time believing that he's not going to have. Now, will he have as productive a year as he did last year, probably not? NFL deepens are gonna catch up. They're gonna figure it out. New offens is coordinator. Probably is gonna change the things. But do I think that there's a curse now? - Well, and I think people are gonna blame it on the curse, like you're saying, if things do go wrong. Because I mean, the NFL things are gonna go wrong just because it's not going to wood that he doesn't get hurt. But we looked at their schedule just a couple weeks ago. That's a tough schedule. I mean, they might not just, they might miss the playoffs and they might blame that on the curse or whatever the case may be. So there's a lot of different things that can come down, but I mean, fingers crossed, things go poorly for the Eagles 'cause don't beat my team like that. Ever again, that hurt my feelings. - I'm sorry you're still in your feelings, Felix. - That was the last football game I watched. So that's all I have. - I just want to go. - I'm gonna run it summer. I'm gonna run it until September comes. But hey, we've already talked about a few trends. We are in the, and I mentioned to, we are in the month of trends. We're going to have some, Dan Casey is essentially the most probably knowledgeable guy I know in terms of college NFL, water off, and so trends. We are going to talk to him up next. I'm excited to have him on the show. This is, we're going deep in this. It's gonna be long. So get ready. Go to the bathroom, pause it if you need to. Let's get into, let's, Felix is already laughing. - I'm taking the bathroom with you. I'm about to get in there. - We don't have to know that you're in the bathroom. We're just, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, don't tell them. Stay, don't leave it in the comments. But no, we, Felix is already smart 'cause you know, I'm already chomping at the bit to get started. So let's get wrong. If there is one person that is the opposite of me, it's Dan Casey, which we talk about all the time. So Dan, I'm glad you're on the show. You basically, every time I get asked like who's the offensive equivalent of Matt's horse like a Dan Casey, go, "Wall-on." He's posting clips of really cool things on offense. I'm posting really cool things on defense. Glad to have you here, man. Thanks for joining us. - Yeah, man, I appreciate you having me. You guys on defense have it a lot harder. It's way easier to be dumb and on offense and just see something cool and throw it up there. So, appreciate the work you do for sure. - Yeah, it's amazing 'cause when we got together a couple weeks ago in Oregon, and that was one of the things I told you was like, dude, it's just like watching you blow up is amazing. And then it's like, I have to work so hard 'cause defense of coaches are so tight to the best. They're so skeptical of everything. I'm like, look, man, I'm just trying to find the answer just like you are. - No doubt, no doubt, man. It's fun though. It's fun to be able to bounce ideas off each other. And Felix, we ended up running into each other a couple times a year at different events. So, appreciate you guys having me on. - Yeah, I appreciate it. So, let's get started. One thing that we talked about last week with Bobby Peters was the commanders and their use of Jandanules in the run game. Primarily using empty looks with quarterback runs, gap schemes to one side, RPO to the other. This forces the defense to do a lot of different things 'cause you can't necessarily sit in court. You sometimes you have to decide whether you have to load the box or not. You have to do a bunch of different things, but explain to me how this is becoming a trend also at the college level, which has always had a quarterback run game. For sure, man. I mean, I think, you know, the quarterback run game, in my opinion, at least is an essential part of good offense at this point, unless you've got a guy who's maybe so cerebral that he's able to dissect everything and always get you in the right play call, doing a lot pre-snap. I think, obviously, we talk about it all the time, like getting plus one in the run game makes a difference for offense and makes it a lot harder for defenses. And I think the NFL stuff is really cool. A lot of like pin and pull, some bash run game stuff, counter. You know, there's some good stuff trickling up to the NFL, but honestly, I love what the college guys are doing right now. The NFL is Army getting an empty, which I mean, kind of blows your mind right off Flexprone team getting an empty in the gun, motioning in and running like basically split zone out of empty with the quarterback, but the quarterback's almost like a single wing player that I think is something you will continue to see just because it's in my opinion, first of all, you get a defense in an empty check. And then all of a sudden, you're motioning into split zone and adding an extra gap with the quarterback as the ball carrier, just really, really tough to deal with. And then the other empty stuff that is really intriguing to me is like what Jason Beck did and New Mexico this past year with Devon Dampier. They're both actually transplanted into Utah now. So I'm excited to see what that looks like in the big 12. But yeah, I mean, similar getting an empty with a a Y off attached and it opens up an incredible amount of possibilities in the run game. If your quarterback is comfortable to do it, right? So you can run your QB counter like GY counter, GH counter. You can run power, you can run long trap, you can run all these different things and you can attach these RPO components to it because especially with like for long trap, for example, you can sort that H back up to the linebacker, trap the defensive end, the quarterback can attack the line of scrimmage. No one's getting down field and you're throwing an RPO glance to the slot. I mean, I know I just kind of work vomited a bunch of stuff out there, but I mean, that's really tough, right? When you're adding the RPO component on top of the QB run stuff and I've kind of been on record saying I'm not a huge RPO fan like traditional pick them all in the belly type of RPOs, but this type of stuff with the quarterback getting downhill and throw on the football. Whew, that is that's some brutal stuff for the defense in my opinion. Yeah, and I think defensively you are in a compromised position because the whole point of empty is, hey, let's get the pass rush there. Let's get our defense or somebody off the edge that's going to be able to kind of pressure that hold the middle of the pocket. You have to essentially cut up the front, right? You're going to have to create some movement and you can't just play again, like you can't just do a game or a looping stunt because you want to make sure that you're doing it the correct way. Now that's the other thing too with this is like because you have three receivers on one side, you have two receivers on the other, you have a quarterback, you literally can go either way with it. And a lot of, you know, the one thing that really scares me is like 12 personality stuff, like where you can double slot it and you should like, you can go whatever way you want, man. And to me, that's, you can run split zone off of it. You can do counter GY. You can do a bunch of different things. You go a different way. You can jet motion back in and create a bash look. There's so many different things. I don't know why this hasn't been more prevalent at almost every level of football because I think a lot of people go empty to pass and then get these really simplistic, like, oh, we'll do a G-Rap if you're a 4-down. If you're a tight front team, we'll just kind of do is that look like a zone bashing with jet or something like or we'll just run a draw. You know, you don't necessarily see of like, we're going to treat the running back almost like Wildcat. It's just so weird how like trends come back. Like it's very cyclical. Like 20 years ago, we were all like losing our minds off the Wildcat. And then now here we are, basically the quarterback is Wildcat. So you, you, you, the offense has the advantage and just changes the math. For sure. And when you're introducing the 12 personnel run game stuff on top of it, you know, seeing teams get in, you know, tight and wing empty. Again, just those are some brutal looks because you have so many gaps to fit. But you're still having to kind of respond to an empty pass scenario with whether you're getting to, you know, your stick concepts to one side or like the quick game stuff. But now you're seeing more and more because because of the QB run threats, you're seeing less teams try to pressure empty. So now you're seeing guys get into more like intermediate, deeper, deeper pass concepts out of empty because teams are afraid to pressure it. And in a lot of ways, like I think with the QB run game stuff, excuse me, offensive coordinators are inviting the blitz inviting the crackers. They can spit the screens out. They can, they can run the quarterback and basically saying like, Hey, I'd love to run counter into your field pressure and we're going to, we're going to split you here. So it's, I think the, the defenses are responding by being maybe a little more conservative against empty. And now you're open in the door to some more intermediate pass concepts that are even tougher to defend. Well, and that kind of brings me to this point because I've seen a lot of Avery Johnson at K-State even going back to it when he was in high school. And this is, we've just talked about his archetype so far. Um, at least it seems like. And so what are defenses showing quarterbacks like that to nullify the, the, the potential of them scrambling out and all of a sudden, you got to stay, stay, uh, assignment sound. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think in the past, like Cody was saying, it's like, Hey, if, if we get an empty, you know, you may get into a mug front and bring more, one more than we can block. And I think what defenses are starting to do now is like saying, Hey, all right, if you're going to get empty, um, if you're going to get an empty, then we may go like drop eight and just kind of keep everything in front and come up and tackle the quarterback. And for an offensive coach, at least from, from my perspective, it's like, all right, if they're going to get in like these drop eight things, like, yeah, we can, we can make some hay in the QB run game, but then he's taken a pounding. And so it's, again, it's, you know, you're, you're weighing the pros and cons of, yeah, we could run this kid 20 times in a game. We don't want to do that. So I think that's what defenses are saying is like, sure, we'll give you, we'll give you some QB run game stuff. We'll, we'll play drop eight, um, and kind of keep everything in front of us and just try to hammer that quarterback as much as we can. I think that's probably the best answer you have, but you are going to give up some stuff in the run game and you just have to be okay with that for sure. Yeah. That's like what you just said it, the modern defensive coordinator has to, and I, when I talk to high school coaches about what's the biggest difference between high school and the NFL and like as you go up, like an NFL DC doesn't care about a four yard run because you're not, especially on an early down, fine, you got into a passing situation like big deal. Whereas like a high school coach literally would die if they gave up a four yard run. Right. Right. And so for you to literally say, Hey, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you're going to have to give up some of these quarterback runs, but you are going to manufacture a lot better scenarios against empty by essentially creating a check down Charlie, which offensive coordinators hate, right? Quarterbacks don't want to throw the, uh, the check down to the running back. They don't want to throw behind a line of scrimmage to a release route like whether it's just a fake bubble and they're running some sort of flood concept or vertical stretch concept. Like that's not what they want to do. And it used to be to your point. It used to be when you got empty, you had a hot call. And if you were watching in the mouth on the very, for, I mean, that's it. That is so in, in grain to me, because I live the horror of the West Virginia Baylor game. That was essentially a thousand point scored at both offenses and a thousand yards. I'll never forget like Geno Smith and Teyvon Austin, like essentially going off seven and Bayley was part of that too. I think the white kid. Wow. Wow, game. Yeah, wow, game. And one of the big things that came out of that was like, we will always pressure empty because if you don't, now they didn't have the quarterback run game, you know, fast forward now almost, almost 15 years, you know, empty now is like a whole thing. And I really think so that that signals us into the next, the next trend, which is 12 personnel in general has completely changed the landscape of football at the upper levels. And one of the biggest things and I mentioned it earlier when we were talking about this is essentially the double slot or and what you mentioned too. And I'm seeing this a ton out of gun is the Y Y or basically the double, you called it a double wing. I would call it a double slot. However you want it. But basically the two tie-down sitting next to you know, 12 personnel again, the run game out of it and everything has completely changed the way that defense are doing it. And then the double slot or the double wing like you, like you brought up is also a huge part of that. So explain kind of how we're where we are in that evolution. No, I'm fascinated by that one. I think if you were at a point to one team that had just an inordinate amount of success with it last year would be Jacksonville State, Rich Rod and what he did in the QB run game. He actually had a kid that brought up from FCS. He was at firm and I think for a while Tyler Huff was the quarterback. Really tough runner. can do some stuff between the tackles, but then can also do some of the bluff stuff. And so the double wing stuff that I'm referring to is, basically you get in 12 personnel, you bring two tight ends into the game, but instead of attaching one of those to the line of scrimmage like a tight end wing look, you're basically stepping both of them off the football, stepping both receivers on the football, and you're always in some sort of like a trip set. And then what you're doing is opening up just a plethora of run game options with that. So you can run your zone read, Rich Rods obviously famous for the zone read back to the Steve Slate and Pat White days at West Virginia, but even before that at Glenville State. And then so you can run your inside zone read and double bluff, bring both guys across and get out on an overhang and potentially, whoever's fitting additionally on the run game. And one of the things that I've seen is when you're running double bluffs or double arcs with these guys, I think defenses are so good at vicing these blockers and kind of squeezing that. When you have two blockers out, what you're seeing a lot of times is almost like them working a quad block or like a double team up to the second level. So they're getting some movement, keeping that quarterback clean. So yeah, you got your double bluff, you got your double arc, you've got your, I call it YY counter, counter solid, where you're basically kicking out with the first guy, wrapping with the second guy, the whole offensive line is kind of staying in sequence. You can, you know, double arc with the bash stuff. I mean, it was so much fun to watch that Jacksonville State run game because you're just like, man, they have so many run game options off of this look. And, you know, I think the next evolution, which we'll probably see this next year at West Virginia with Rich Rod is like what pass game options kind of look like off of that out of that set. But right now, I think even, even if you were to talk like Todd Monkin and the Baltimore Ravens, he didn't do the double wing set as much, but would get in like a full house back field, run the zone read and double arc for Lamar. And anytime you have a dynamic player with two blockers out in front, that's a win for the offense. - Nightmare. - Nightmare scenarios. You know, interestingly enough, one of the better defenses in the country last year was Law Tech. And so I've watched a good, healthy amount of Jacksonville State kind of offense. And you're just sitting there watching it like, I'm glad I don't have to defend that because it's so difficult. And we are seeing it. I think a lot of times at the NFL level, I think it's just modern roster construction where you now have a Y and you need an F. - Yes. - And so based off of that, I think the trickle down effect of just obviously where we are in the landscape of college football with the running quarterback. And then you can find those hybrid S everywhere. - Yes. - There's every high school team in America has a kid that can play full back, H back, F, whatever you wanna call it. Every high school in America has a guy. So you can find those like little tweeners. And I think that that's just like kind of the, where we are too of if everybody's gonna play nickel, I'm gonna put an extra guy on. - Yes. - 100%. - And I call those guys 3D players because in that slot position, they can go out, they can go in and then go vertical. And that's a 3D player. You put a guy on the line of scrimm and try to know he can only go vertical or he can go out. Now some guys will pull the tie-in on ball, which is really funky. A lot of guys don't like it. You have to have a, you have to really have a belief that you can handle this. So you don't see it a lot of times. But I do think the slot also changes the way that the defense sees the field. And so I think the Y Y stuff, especially putting them, I know that I think the Lions do a bunch of this. You mentioned also the Ravens. Anybody with two tight ends, I have a feeling it's sneaky submission. We're gonna see some of this stuff with the Raiders next year. - Oh, what's up with that? - It's coming down and it is, you better get ready 'cause all your Y Off stuff from 11 personnel, yeah, they added an extra guy. - Yes. Yeah, KISS 11 personnel Y Off goodbye. I mean, honestly, everybody sees it all the time, especially down here in Texas. It's like everybody and their mother runs that. So everybody sees it, everybody knows how to fit it. Welcome to the 12 personnel world. And if you're a high school kid and you want a scholarship, be an F tight end, be a move tight end who can move around, who can do a little bit in the past game, can get dirty in the run game, that's the guy, right? And if you look at a team like Oregon and the way they were built, obviously Terrence Ferguson gets drafted by the Rams, really talented player, more of like a Y on kind of guy. And then they had another guy, Kenyan Sadiq, who might be one of the best players in college football next year. I mean, just an unbelievable talent. Very similar in that kind of Brock Bauer's mold, a guy that can do it all, he can take a jet sweep or a fly sweep, he can block in your run game, he can get out in the past game, you can throw him screens. That is, I know Sean Payton's called it like his Joker in his office before, just like, he's gonna do a little bit of everything for us. And I think that is the crucial, if you were to think of a cornerstone piece of a lot of these offenses, it's that move tight end. Your F is really making hay for you in the modern offensive game. - This might be a quick aside, but I've always just found it interesting, like trying to get high school kids to do the things that they don't wanna do to get a scouts, or like be a long snapper, like be an F tight end, like for sure, because like you see different trends like going on in the NFL, where the Raiders, they draft tight ends back to back years, they get Michael Mayer and then Brock Bauer's and they have plans for both of them. So there are way, there's 64 jobs available in the NFL, and more than that. So I think that's an interesting way to go about it. Like be that twin or be that guy in between, don't just be the long snapper, but also learn how to long snap too. - No, I think that's a great point. And it's like, to be honest with you, if you're a 205 pound receiver, you might as well put a few pounds on and go play an F tight end. And the way I think of it is like, the evolution in football is not unique, right? There's other sports that have experienced this as well, whether it's basketball, Dremon Green playing the four at what is he 65? It's like, he's not your traditional power forward, but based on what they're doing and their offense, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I used to always tell kids, if you can do something unique, you can earn a spot onto the field that you might not have otherwise. And I think back to even, this is kind of a throwback, but even like early to mid 90s Buffalo Bills, they had a special team, her name Steve Tasker, ended up playing a little bit of receiver too, and had some pretty decent years of receiver. And I think the reason he got to play so much at receiver is 'cause a lot of times he'd be the guy blocking the backside of counter. Like he'd be doing all this dirty work to get himself onto the field. And really that's the key. Like I think in the modern game, there's not that there's no such thing as a receiver that just stands out there as an X and is just like a one on one guy. But more and more so, you're seeing guys that they need to be able to do multiple things. You look at the 49ers offense, like a big reason it works is 'cause Brandon Iyuk blocks, all those guys blocked. Joanne Jennings, all of them block. And you know, there's just not a ton of just like, go, hey, go stand out there and play receiver anymore. It's the game is too complex. There's too many good concepts that you're missing out on if you have a guy's just stationary out there. - Nice shot on Steve Tasker. He should be in the Hall of Fame just. - He really should, an unbelievable play. - 100%. I think you know, you kind of, it's amazing because I wrote I wrote Iyuk's in 2018 about how football is essentially entering the spaceport era. Much like soccer had done, much like the NBA had done. - Yeah. - Position lists, I don't think obviously football can't be positional, it's just in terms of because the offensive line has to be set. But if you are not adding value, add a position, like an X-ray, you are a safety that can play in the box, like you are a safety that has coverage ability, like molding with the chargers. If you are a corner that can kick inside and be able to defend the run like we see now, the nickels are starting to get paid. Then you go on the offensive side, Christian McCaffrey, Alvin Camara, say Juan Barclay, even though he didn't catch that many passes for the Eagles, like Ken Run, Beeson Robinson, that's a great example. Like if you wanna be a lead, a lead, you gotta be able to add value. So you can't just be a blocking tied in. You can't just be a, you know, a move tied in, like a power slot because we know like, look, if you go line up and they're gonna blanket you with an extra safety and you're gonna be gone. So I think like you hitting that, like it's so, now we are in the spaceport era. Like we are in it, you have to be able to do it. Offense is know how to manipulate it, defense is know how to constrain it. That's why the Y-off is essentially dead. You better be figuring out other ways to do it. Other ways to drain off, you know, a couple things that you mentioned, I think in your Trends book was like arrow screens off of run action, essentially another way of draining the box. So don't just have the tied in slice across, you can now go across and go into the flat, or instead of marking up the quarterback run game. Like you said, trying to eliminate the amount of carriers for your quarterback, you know, tied in fly sweep, you mentioned that as well. The kid I remember two years ago, you're very close with the staff at with Dr. Quirney, their organ, you know, I know landing, I went and visit two years ago, even told me like this tied in that we got is like phenomenal. - It's a free shot. - The next part counts. And so here we are, we start seeing it, and it's like, well, add value. He can run the ball on a fly sweep. (laughs) It's like you get all those added values. And I think for offences, now, it's more or less like how can we be creative? I think we, like the square peg in a round hole era is done. And I'm really proud of our generation Dan, especially of being able to like, hey, let's think a little bit outside the box or with some of these kids, if like not necessarily say, what can he not do, but what can he do? And then how can we manufacture that within what we're seeing? I mean, you've talked to more often to guys, I feel like that's kind of where we are with the evolution of things. I completely agree. And it's one of those things on the offensive side of the ball, if you're not providing value, you're off the field and we're bringing an extra offensive lineman in the game. And we're just going to play some bully ball. And you know, there is no such thing as just a blocking tight end anymore. They're just going to put a sixth offensive lineman in the game. Joe Brady's doing it in Buffalo. Ben Johnson did it in Detroit. He's probably going to do it again in Chicago. Even college guys are starting to do it a little bit. Andy Codelnicki has done some cool stuff with basically using offensive lineman in motion to kind of jumpstart their run game. And so I think what's interesting about this generation of offensive football, I've been obsessed with it for a few years now and really dove into it, is the way that the way that offense is evolving is purely conceptual now. You used to have a system, right? Like I learned the West Coast system from so and so, it was kind of passed down. And now there's so much access to information that guys are pulling these concepts in from all over the place. And so offense is not system based, it's concept based. And so again, finding unique skill sets and being able to construct concepts for those skill sets is a crucial part of offensive success. And you know, I think Chip Kelly's like the OG with this, right? It's like, if you were to think of the Chip Kelly system, right? Back in Oregon, 10 personnel run games, zone read, you know, very kind of almost optiony a little bit. And then even into the, his time with the Eagles, like what he's doing now offensively is totally different. It's totally different. He's evolved so much as an offensive play caller. And it's fun to watch that evolution and see that guys aren't getting stagnant in their, their quote system, they're continuing to evolve. And a lot of that like, aero screen stuff on the backside of run concepts, it's like, yeah, you have Will Howard, you can run him a little bit, but you probably don't want to like have him always be responsible to read the backside account. So let's add in, let's bring Jeremiah Smith across the formation and, oh, what do you know? If you want to cheat on counter, we're going to flip it out to this dude and he's gone. So it's again, it's finding, finding your dudes, finding, I love how Tim plow the head coach at UC Davis, he calls it your queen on the chess board. Who's your queen on the chess board? Whoever it is on your team, you better structure your concepts around that person and make sure that that person gets a lion's share of the attention. - Yeah. - Yeah. I think too, like, it's so funny about football of where we get, we have these advancements and we're moving forward, but things cycle back. - Oh yeah. - Right? And look, like the big thing now is pin and pull, which is essentially just buck sweep. You have, you know, spinnerbacks, you were talking about, so you've been talking about spinnerbacks, wing T, slot T, single wing, like all of these, all of these offenses are now coming back and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that if you are just a Y-off zone team, you are going to have a really hard time getting traction. If you are just, if you are just running stretch from the gun because you got a fast running back, guess what, you're gonna get to the playoffs and you're gonna have negative yards rushing. - Yes. - Because there's gonna be a team that's just gonna be better than you and you're not, hey, we got fast guys too. And so I think like the evolution of it, defensively too, like you were talking about, offensive guys evolving, like watch the NFL in the last five years, like guys that are system guys are gone. Pete Carroll had to flip it off. Gus Bradley has been is gone. I think you're gonna see like Jim Schwartz who has essentially been a four down cover one guy is starting to be like, okay, well, maybe we need to play a little bit more at some, we need to do some different things. Dan Quinn, who is a Pete Carroll guy, is running quarters, they're running quarters. - Right. - Right. - They're running non-traditional Tampa. It's like you've got guys like willing to experiment with crazy stuff. I mean, I literally just got done watching Mike McDonald run a hot palms where you have squat quarters on the outside and one vision hook drop in the middle. This isn't the hot quarter of the bike that we're gonna run with Brockmore. So it's like people are taking things and it's these generation of coach, our generation of coach that are willing to be like, look man, this ain't working. Let's, let's try and find something else. So it's really, it's really interesting to me that evolution, talking to me too though, about where we are, kind of with the dinosaur offence is coming back in Vogue. - Yeah, no, I wanna get to that in one second, but while you were talking, it really kind of jogged my memory of just kind of a principle based approach to defensive football. And again, I'm an offensive guy, so I see things a little bit differently, but I always try to find a parallel in other sports, right? And so my brother is a high school basketball coach in Southern California, and we talk a lot about kind of the evolution in basketball and how it kind of maps on a football and vice versa. And one of the things that he talks a lot about is, hey, you have, they call them coverages, right? Like we have certain coverages that we like to play against pick and roll. We have about seven different ways that we can play pick and roll. And yes, there's gonna be some game plan. And sometimes you just have to kind of throw some different things at people, so they have to see different things. And I think the same is true with defensive football, right now, right? It's like, yeah, you may get got every once in a while, and sometimes you have to throw multiple coverages at a quarterback or you may have to throw some different fronts at a run game just to cause some disruption and cause some problems for the offense. And so again, it's one of those things when you watch NBA basketball or even kind of the higher levels of college, you're gonna give up some stuff. I mean, offenses are so good, players are so skilled, you're gonna give some stuff up, but can you mix things up enough that you can give yourself a chance to ultimately play your best stuff when it's cut in time? And so, yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting thing. And then the offense of equivalent of that, right? Is like, okay, you see why off, you see zone, split zone, cap zone, counter, you see all this stuff, you fit it really well. The defensive guy is, especially with the quarters, safety's fitting the run, they're able to do a pretty good job fitting a lot of the run game stuff. And so offenses, I think in response are like, okay, well, have you seen spinner counter? Have you seen some of this wing T stuff where we're bringing a wing trap? Again, Bobby Peters calls them auxiliary runs. Like, it's things you're not practicing against every single day. So that we may have a chance to pop an eight yard run. In a crucial situation, right? You're seeing a lot of like third and long runs from offenses because they're more aggressive in four down territory. Hey, we can run the ball on third and long. We don't have a problem with that. And so, again, it's about prying open gaps. And one of the ways to do that is to force guys to fit things that they don't normally see. If you're seeing it every day, you're a pro, you're a high level college kid, even the high school guys that are high level, like they're gobbling up stuff that they see every day. You have to throw some stuff that they haven't seen consistently, but it also has to fit into your offense. And that's the challenge. You can see some guys that are kind of grab bagging stuff, but the guys that can, like a Matt LaFlor in Green Bay, make everything fit together, get his play action concepts off of it, kind of build a world off of some of this run game stuff. Those are the guys that are having a lot of success with it. Yeah. We've briefly touched on Andy Codel and Eddie earlier, but talking a lot about what you're able to do with Jimmy's and Joe's versus X's and O. Is what Codel Nikki does? Because obviously he's created this trend. And I remember the vanilla ice cream that he had during the season, but is what he does copyable because he's just got different dudes and he himself is just a different dude. For sure. No, I mean, he's the cool thing I think about someone like Andy is he's come up through the ranks from small school, I think he was at an eye school initially. White water, three white water. I mean, he's been everywhere and he's had to problem solve at every different level. And that's where I think some guys do end up on third base and think they hit a triple, right? It's like the guys that have had to workshop a D3 system and workshop Buffalo in the Mac. And what he was doing at Buffalo in the Mac to basically lead the nation and rushing the wide zone stuff he was doing. It was awesome. And then you go to Kansas and you have your different set of challenges and different set of solves. And then Penn State, obviously got some blue chip guys. How do you handle that situation? And so I think he's just got a deep bag of solves for different situations. And yes, like a lot of the concepts are simplistic in terms of like, yeah, he's gonna run counter. He's gonna, he's going to run mesh. He's gonna run virt. He's gonna run all these things. Like you're gonna see them every week, but they're gonna be presented in such a unique way. And that's obviously I think what makes him special. But I think any coach in America can put a tight end at quarterback and run counter and do some of the different things he did. I'm a big believer in big backs. I think big running backs, whether it's a tight end body, like just a, I think back to like, you know, your Jerome [BLANK_AUDIO] you're Larry Johnson when he was in Kansas City like big backs are back in my opinion. Not that there's not a spot for the smaller guys, but being able to run through contact and create extra yardage. You saw Tyler Warren do it a ton in the quote unquote, "cuby run game" even though he's the tight end, but he was playing Wildcat quarterback. Being able to fall forward is a massive advantage for the offense. Yeah, and to your just to go back what you said, I got a wildly got connected with a stepneries trainer and we had a conversation over zoom. And the one thing he talked about was like, yeah, we watch football at time for bunch checks. And I was like, anyway, he's like our inbound game. We just watch we just get go to my buddy who's a hey, you know, the head coach it name a name of college. Hey, can you pull up all the bunches from pff and put it in a cut up and give it to me. And then they just watch they watch it. And I was like, I blew my mind. I was like, oh, yeah, why not? I ever think about that. It's like you need defensive coaches. Go talk to your basketball coach down life. You're a high school coach and you got a really good basketball coach. Go down the all and be like, hey, man. And then come in and talk to me about some of your inbound plays and like what you're doing and then how are you defending it on the other because to me, it's like like you said, we're we're beyond where football is just football like you have to expand on it. You have to do that. And that goes back to the original question. I'm glad we went on this tangent because it is it's awesome to do it. And that's why I wanted to have you on here is go back to talk to me about these dinosaur. Offense is coming back in vote. What are some of the things that you're seeing. One of the best things I ever got to do in my career was for three years. I worked on a flexbone staff. It was amazing. I became such a better coach, such a better teacher. And I hated every second that I was there. But I was a better I was a better coach for it. So talking about some of these things like pin pole, the spinner counter stuff, the wing trap, all the wing T single wing. What are the things that you're seeing coming down the pipe. Well, I think to start, you know, some of the old school stuff, if it has stuck around, I mean, it's similar to literature, right? Like the good stuff stands the test of time. And I think what what happened to like, for example, a lot of wing T stuff kind of it kind of got pushed out by a generation of coaches that said that's old school. The kids don't want to do it anymore. It's not interesting. It's it is a dinosaur offense, right? But then when you actually go back and you study like, let me see what if I have it on my. I have it on my desk right here, Delaware, wing T. This is Tubby Raymond. I read it every off season because it's it's core principles of offensive football. It's about space. It's about numbers. It's about I mean, we always talk about right numbers, angles, grass, right? And that he doesn't specifically say that, but just the way that he's creating movement, misdirection, it's sound football. It goes back to it's ultimately goes back to its roots. And so I think the reason you're seeing it is because I think in order to attack spread off fences, defenses have done some unsound things. Not entirely, but I think in some ways you're cheating a little bit, right? Whether you know the big thing was like two gapping or slinging fits. You know, I know I don't talk defense in the same way that you guys do. But you know, there was there was some quote unquote cheating involved right in on the defense side of that was working. That was working. And so it's like, okay, well, you can't cheat the wing T. Like you have to play a gap sound. You can't cheat the plexpon right. I remember talking to Jeff Collins and he was saying that the most kind of foundational era of his coaching career was when he was in Mississippi state and having to go against DAC every day in Dan Mullins offense. And so it was very option. Right. Like you had to have you had to have your option fits. Dialed or you're going to get gashed. And so I think you're seeing. You're seeing some of that stuff. I think the wing T works so well because you don't necessarily need a triple option quarterback and you don't necessarily need to teach the reads like you can pull some plays from the wing T whether it's buck sweep or pin and pull or wing traps. They have, you know, Sally different different concepts like that that are a pretty cheap install off of a formation you already have in the offense that creates some real problems for the defense. And so I know Liam Cohen did it a bunch with the with the Tampa Bay bucks and the cool thing about Liam Cohen is right like he played high school quarterback for his dad wing T coach. So he was kind of like died in the wool with the wing T. And so I don't know I just I see these things continuing to come back the single wing. Obviously down in Texas the slot T is huge and they they're able to use like tempo in and out of the huddle to create challenges. And I know a lot of NFL coaches that I've had a chance to talk to are really fascinated by the tempo from the huddle to the line of scrimmage and reducing the amount of time that defenses have to communicate and to get in what they want. And so I don't know I just it's a fun time to be an offensive football right now because the world is really opened up to guys saying yeah I'm not a wing T coach per say but I'm going to pull concepts in from here and I'm going to build a sequence out of this offense that really fits with what we do. So I think you're going to see it continue to expand and it's exciting for me is like I I do see myself as like a little bit of a offensive football history and I love going back and seeing this old stuff and to see it resurface and guys getting excited about it. The coolest thing has been connecting with you know coaches that are like 75 years old 80 years old that are still like really invested in the game that know the wing T like the back of their hands and having conversations with them. And I think there was a time where those guys felt like really disrespected by the movement in the game. It guys just kind of tossing tossing those concepts to the side and now that they're coming back it's really cool to see those guys get get fired up about football again. Yeah well I even think from like a recruiting perspective for a long time you get guys from small town wherever and then they got to go play and they're spread off into what I and so like that transition is a little bit difficult. Are we seeing something like that where we talked about this positionlessness of football if you will like these guys that are coming from a spread offense in high school now they're starting to have to learn these wing T concepts that they may not have figured out whatever the case may have been in vice versa. And I see is there some type of trend that way where we're seeing I mean modern roster construction is so different nowadays with NIO and transfer portal and whatever whatever the hell else but that that's something that you if you want to build a good program obviously got a recruit from high school so we see some issues on that front. I mean I think that's a really good question and interesting to think about I think with NIO and the portal if you're not willing to do certain things you can probably go find another place. And so I'm not in a weird way like yes it does give power to the players that they can leave and they can do different things and in another way it gives power to the coaches to say hey this is what we're going to do and we're looking for a specific type of person that's going to kind of buy into. Some of this stuff and even at the NFL level like yeah there are certain guys that are more willing than others maybe. But you look at a guy like like Mac Collins right with the Buffalo bills that guy does every little thing in an offense and he's. He created a really nice career for himself from you know somebody that probably in the past would have just been a special teamer to now a core guy even in Washington with the commanders like a guy that doesn't get nearly enough credit for what he did was no a brown. The receiver he went down with an injury kind of mid year but he was he really had them humming offensively because he did so many different things and then you got like more of your star guys right like an almond Ross St Brown who that that dude's taking inside handoffs on trap like right so it's I think it's one of those things where you know for a coach you can say. Yeah we're not really just going to have like a stationary X standing out there throwing back shoulder fades to him you have to be able to do more and being able to point to someone in an NFL offense that's been successful like an almond Ross St Brown and showing what he's done. I think that encourages guys to try a little bit more maybe things a little bit outside of their comfort zone but the positionless thing is very real when you talk about skill positions in. In football it's like running backs have to catch receivers have to run and block tight ends have to carry the football on on you know getting fly sweeps and handoffs like everybody has to do a little bit of everything if you're going to be successful. Yeah I to me I'll never forget we put we had a kid at Baylor called Antoine Goodley it was like he was a little bit ahead of his time he's basically like a D. Bo same you'll type like 205 210 right around six foot six one and basically a running back build it at received. And then we will put him in the backfield and it would just be like people's minds were blown like wait a second you know then you see you know fast forward and you see she in a hand do it. And I think that there's there's a little bit of kind of you talk about it like getting these guys getting you in a jet motion or getting you in a motion but then running trap with you or do you think you're putting defenses in really a bind. Per se you're fitting a non traditional you know ball carrier you're adding numbers because you're bringing a guy in you're putting a corner or a nickel it's typically not going to be in the box now he's got to fit in the box. like it just creates a bunch of just havoc for the defense and a lot of trash. You also mentioned too, some of the things from these dinosaur offense is like the quick sugar huddle of like, hey, we're sprinting. - Yeah, exactly. - That's gonna wing tee thing. It's very played wing tee team. It's a single wing team like it's brutal. You, I mean it, you don't wanna deal with it. Then you have coaches like Kirby Smart, who's over there literally on the numbers, waiting to the last second to call the defense. And there's guys that want to call the defense at the very last second. - Yes. - And I think we've learned to like the Uber tempo stuff doesn't work. You have to vary it. You have to have kind of a plant. I think a defense is now with one word calls and blitzing the formation. Basically things that were created because of our briles. I was there the birth of it. Like I saw what it looked like. So you know, in ship Kelly too, like you basically we fix that, right? That you can't run 10 personnel, spread any more and be super, super successful. And so now we get these dice, and I love the fact that all this stuff is coming back. I get old coaches too that hit me up about, especially the banjo stuff. Like you know, that was admitted in the 80s with more and more and more and more than hearing about. Oh, you know, that's just a Diplobo. They just, you know, drop in an extra guy. It's not a five man pressure. Now it's just simulated pressure. You know, so all this stuff is coming back. And I just think that it's good for these older coaches to get their flowers to and you holding up that Bible, which is the wing tea people really is fight for that book. I mean, I've had off as a coach is like literally like, this is the most prized possession I have. Oh, I had to pay way too much money for that book. I'll tell you what. You were reading every off season. I got so lucky. I knew Dr. Peterson that Bill Woffbuck that you were talking about in Oregon. Like what's it called? The Blankin on it. I'm finding the winning edge. Yes. He just handed me a copy, Randall, you at AFCA. And then I had no idea it was like, I kept good care of it. And it was just stuffed in like my closet. And then somebody's like, yes, books like $400. I was like, oh, right. I'm saying man. I probably did. That was like five years ago. I was like, I probably need to put this in a safer spot. Yeah. Yeah, if somebody broke into my house, they'd probably be taking that. That'd probably be the first thing they're taking. Yeah, that's crazy. So let's segue into. Let's talk a little bit more about passing game here. One of the things that you mentioned in your Trends book too is like cross-block bubble, which I did not know that that was coming back. That was a thing back in the 2010s. Totally. Yeah. That's coming back. But then also too, we talked to Bobby last week about the advancement of just perimeter screens. Just screens in general. In the NFL, what are you seeing that's unique? Kind of at the college level. I know at the NFL, we're talking Escort screens with a lead blocker, essentially like a double push. You have the bunch of different jailbreak various. We talked about at the beginning empty quarterback run game with some sort of a tunnel screen on the backside. So what are some of these things that you're seeing at the college level? Well, I think the main theme that came out of this past year when I was looking at the screen game, College N Pro, but specifically, College is, you have to scheme your screen game. Like, I think there was an era of College football in particular where it was like, all right, we'll leverage this. If we don't like the run game, we'll spray out a screen. And it was just kind of like mindless screening almost. I know there's probably more to it than that. But like the bubbles in the nows, they just get gobbled up these days. They're not effective. And they're not highly efficient plays, really. I mean, if I was a defensive guy, I'd give you-- I'd given offense bubbles in nows all day and just come up and tackle it and punish those receivers. But I thought that some of the air raid guys are actually doing some really good screen game stuff. Eric Morris at North Texas, MacLef, which at Texas State, he's now at Texas Tech, some of these Texas guys that have roots with Cliff Kingsbury, Michael Each and different things like that. They're doing some interesting stuff in the screen game. I think you were talking about the cross blocking on bubble and kind of motioning-- North Texas kind of motioned into it and got the leverage. You have to create angles for your receivers. Because if you're just going to stalk block, again, I think defenses are really good at vicing those stalk blocks and gobbling stuff up and really defeating them. And one of my pet theories is kind of like the big nickel, having a nickel that is physical enough to destroy your screen game makes it really tough on offenses. Because you can't just say, hey, block most dangerous, right? It's like, well, he's going to dominate that block. So I think creating leverage for your screens and almost treating it like pin and pull or treating it like a counter almost-- I know teams are using the GT counter tunnel screen to get-- protect the backside of counter without having to run the quarterback. It's things like that that I think you really have to scheme it up a little bit more. The NFL-- Bobby talks about this. Bobby Peters talks about how you can really tell who's a well-coached team based on their screen game. And that's very true at the NFL, like the amount of precision, for sure. And I think that's kind of true in college as well. The guys that are really putting together like game plan type screens or the ones that are having the most success, I don't really think you're going to be a good screen team if you just have like key screens. I just don't think you're going to be a good screen team. You have to scheme them up. You have to get your quarterback on the move a little bit. I really like some of the pocket movement throwback screens, filter screens to the tight end, different things like that. But if you're not scheming up your screens, you're leaving a lot on the table, in my opinion. Yeah. And you mentioned it. There's a lot of these like Mike Leach disciples. And there's kind of some irony in this. You're talking about a system that is notorious for not having zero attention to detail. And then they're running some of the more detailed screens but I think that's part of the evolution of it. It's like you get to a certain point with a 10% air raid stuff where you're like, OK, we really don't have any advantage anymore. And so now what are some of the things that are really good from this system? And one of the things that they've always been good at is jail works. Every time we play Kingsbury, every time we played, it was a gun D team. It was like the jail works screens. Get ready for it. Get ready for it. That was one of our big of things. I go back to that West Virginia game. That was the biggest thing for us. And empty is like the older thing. We're going to jail right. And so it was like, we don't want that. Well, now you can add it with run game on top of it. And you can hold the backside of these GT because GT now is super popular instead of greeting the Y because so many people are keen to tighten now. Correct. Yeah. So to me, I do-- Shark Vision is a great example of a guy that's basically built an entire offense off of just perimeter screens. It's funny, a buddy in mind is with the dolphins. And he was like, yeah, it's essentially like the same offense. And we talked to Bobby about it. And that was one of the teams he brought up of like the dolphins running perimeter screens, essentially off of Gatskym and YZone and GT. And you're just like, there's so much jet motion cannot be your only eye candy anymore. No. You have to create post-snap eye candy because everybody's playing so slow with those linebackers that you want to be able to have a some sort of a false read or get them to move in the wrong direction off of where they're supposed to go. And so I think that that's the natural evolution of it. And because we're not keen guards and we're not the old school way of fitting the gaps and doing things where everybody's slow, we're canceling gaps inside, this is the natural evolution. It makes-- when you guys talk about this stuff, it makes 100% sense to me if that this is where we're at right now. No, 100%. And I think you'd mentioned the pure tempo era, whether it was Baylor and Briles. I think they were doing it at Marshall and South Florida. All these teams were snapping the ball 100 times a game, maybe more, 90, something. I don't know. You know, the pure tempo era, things happen fast between the whistles and after the snap. I mean, the ball was coming out really fast in the screen game in that pure tempo era. And now I think what you're seeing is the successful screens are the slow screens. They're the ones that are developing a little bit slower. And I think in the NFL, you're seeing a lot of that slot tunnel where you're throwing the tunnel to the outside guy can be kind of tough because it's really hard for a tackle to get out on a corner or get out on a safety rotating down into it. Whereas in the slot, it's shorter distance to cover and you're able to get out on guys a little bit faster. And so I think this takes us all the way back to some of the spinner stuff. The reason you're seeing teams have success with spinner and screens off of it is because the quarterback now is able to hide the football. And that's an important piece for offenses is we had this entire generation of quarterbacks that never turned their back to the defense, which is kind of wild to me because it's such an advantage to be able to do that and hide the football, you know, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, when they got under center and were able to hide the football on play action. If you think about how many screens they built off of that, like the New England screen package was unreal. What Peyton Manning did in his screen package and with the Colts was unbelievable. And now you're seeing like a Sark with Quinn Ewers. He's able to use that spinner action on the orbit sweep, hide the football and still work back to a screen. So I just think you know you're seeing the successful screen teams are typically using skimmed up slower screens that are taking advantage of some of that post snap eye candy, being able to hide the football from defenders and then you spray it out late and can potentially create an explosive for yourself. It sounds like it often works nowadays. It's a fat kid friendly. If things move slowly, you run the ball more, just keep it up for the fat kids and everything's fine. It'll be that way for, yeah, put your watch, set your watch for like four or five years from now. And we're going to be talking about 10 personnel and tempo. And it's, yeah, it'll be. I'm not excited for it. Time is a flat circle. Now, as soon as your will linebacker is 245 to 250, get ready for it. That pendulum, that pendulum swings back at all. We thought that's the famous Kirby Smart 2009 Alabama team versus the 2018 Alabama team of like everybody shed crazily. Everybody shed 20 pounds in your license. You're 265. Mike linebacker is now a defensive end that's a draw, you know, a drop outside linebacker and edge. I think some of it, you know, speaking of kind of the NFL, you know, we've mentioned NFL with the screens and things like that. One of the concepts that you also talk about is like the dash or the Sprint Out concepts. Yes, you mentioned with moving the pocket for the screen. A lot of this stuff is essentially, I think my dad is a huge boot fan. By the way, my dad is essentially an offensive coordinator that has anchored in the 90s power option from Nebraska running belly power counterboot power counterboot. My dad is my dad has had kids that if I were to walk them through the door and show you that they were 1000 yard receiving tide ends, you would be your crazy. And it was all off of boot. 100%. And so I, to me, I don't know why we ever went away from under center boot. I, why, I mean, obviously, I know why, but it's just like it's such a productive play. Talk to me about these dash and these Sprint Out concepts that we're now starting to see and then some of these, these play action things off of. Yes, so for people that maybe aren't as familiar with it, the basic way to describe a dash concept is it's boot without play action. So essentially what you're doing is like say you're, say you're in a three by one and you peak a quick game concept to the boundary and then you pin with a tight end, the line full slides to the quick game concept of the quarterback sets the depth of the pocket and then it plans this planned escape. Just a lot of times you'll have like a tight end pinning in a defensive end and you're able to kind of clear the clear the pocket. I think it's, I think every offense should have this concept. I've been like shouting it from the rooftops for years now that it's such a good concept because it's really hard to protect. It is really hard to protect consistently if you're not moving the pocket some in some way, shape, or form. And then guys that get in real trouble are trying to get in their drop back concepts and just have have pass pro solves and that that's like yes, you need those things right. You need, you need your pass pro solves. You need to be able to check, check the different protections. You need to be able to do stuff in your drop back game. But honestly moving the pocket is essential, I think, especially with the type of quarterbacks you have these days. You see my homes do it. You actually see a ton of bonics. The Broncos love dash concepts. It's something he's been comfortable with since he was with Kenny Dillingham at Oregon, Will Stein at Oregon. Like they they move the pocket a lot with him. And not only are you creating like potential flood concepts on the boot if you want to call it that. Then you also have all these throwback screen options and there's a lot you can do off of it. And if you're not going to get an under center and run like Shanahan style keeper boots, dashes, I think probably the next best thing. And it's really a West Coast concept from Bill Walsh, probably even earlier than that. But set the depth of the pocket, planned escape. It's so effective. I've seen so many teams have so much success with it that I anticipate you're going to see more and more of it in the years to come. Yeah, makes makes total sense to me to it's just to it's too easy. And those items get lost in the trash. I mean, you dealt with it. You've coached at the high school level. You you talked to college coach real time. I don't know what it is about tight ends, but kids lose them. They're not like their small athletes, but they end up losing them in coverage. And so it's like go ahead. The crazy thing is is like you'll have that tight end pinned down right on the boot. And it's similar to like the old school slam release, right where it's like we slam we we mash everything down and then he just kind of loops back around turns around. I can't tell you how many guys I've seen just dump it to that tight end and he's got 12 yards just right up the crease. And so I think what you're seeing defense is do a pretty decent job of building the fence on some of the boot concepts and doing a pretty good job of of nailing down a flat and work and do an intermediate and kind of handle in the deep route. What they do not do a good job of is handling that middle void. And so I think what you're going to see teams do it now is use their boot concepts, but then actually instead of leak all the way to the other side have like essentially a same side leak that's up the up the shoot. It's your seven on seven route right. It's like your little your little pipe route. And I think you're going to see that tight end slam and instead of slam flat, he's going to slam vertical. And there's going to be a void there because defense is do do a really good job reacting to boot, but there's a void right there in the middle of the defense that I've seen so many guys take advantage of and a lot of times it's kind of unplanned, but I think it's going to start being more planned from the office side. 100% agree with you. It's one of the nightmares. You're actually starting to see it in the NFL where the defense is actually overplay the slam. Yes. And they get back door by the intermediate route coming across will be just because if you're going to go and it's a simple read for the quarterback, you have a leverage read. You can't make it any easier on the guy to read low high and then it's there. Well, Dan, this has been awesome. This is why I want to have you on talking about it. Let everybody know who's listening where they can find you and what you're working on. Yeah, for sure, man, I appreciate you guys having me on. You can find me on pretty much any social at Coach Dan Casey. Try to keep those updated pretty often with some fun offensive schemes. Just wrote the most recent trends book, trends in offensive football volume two. That's kind of the best way to support my work right now. Just jump on Amazon or my website and grab a copy and yeah, man, I just, I love getting to do this. I love getting to work on football all the time. And one of the coolest parts of it is just how much support I've gotten from the coaching community over the years and how many awesome conversations I get to have. So yeah, man, it's pretty sweet. Yeah, like I said at the beginning, if you want somebody that's posting clips of football all the time and explaining, explaining offense kind of in a similar way that I do for defense, follow Dan. I'm always sending people your way, dude. Thanks for being on. Appreciate you, man. I really appreciate you, man. Yeah, man. Thanks for joining us again today. If you enjoyed this episode and want to support our podcast, make sure to please subscribe, leave a rating and review. Stay up to date with match quarters and the Let's Talk Ball podcast. Subscribe at match quarters.com. You can follow me on X at the underscore coach underscore a and on blue sky IG TikTok and YouTube at match quarters. And don't forget make sure to go follow my man Felix. He's on IG and X at Felix are Johnson and let's keep talking.