The podcast host responds to criticism from friend and supplier Jack Simpson, who argued that pre-batched espresso undermines specialty coffee’s values of detail and customer connection. The host defends his method, explaining that it reduces rising operational costs while maintaining quality, using high-end beans and co-ferment coffees. He cites blind taste tests where experts failed to distinguish pre-batched from conventional espresso, and argues that batch blending ensures consistency. The host claims pre-batching speeds service, allowing baristas to focus on customer experience and pour-overs, and has attracted new customers through accessible flavors. He expresses disappointment that Simpson did not address concerns privately, given their long friendship and business relationship. The host reaffirms his commitment to innovation, noting his history of pioneering techniques like frozen coffee, and stresses that his goal is to make specialty coffee more efficient and affordable without sacrificing quality. He concludes that the positive customer feedback and growing interest in his cafes validate his approach, and he plans to expand pre-batching to all his stores.
[Music] This episode is brought to you by the future. I only had experts look into the future, which is totally possible by the way, and then report back about what things will taste like when we get there. Learn about bold ideas, the dawn of DKF and the rise of Fiverr in the future of Taste Report on Oatly.com. Welcome back to the coffee show, everyone. Sorry, I've been away for a few weeks, been really busy. I'm sorry I haven't posted a podcast, but we'll start off this, but if you like, subscribe, that'll be great. I just want to give a shout out to one of our sponsors, Apex Labs. Apex Labs support the podcast. If you're after some mineral concentrates, they're great for making filter, great for making espresso, great for making pre-batch to espresso, which is what this podcast is about. You can go to the website and order ApexLabs.com and you can use the code Curk2026 to get 10% off your first order. So that's Apex Labs. Use the code Curk2026 to get your first order. Now, it's been an interesting couple of weeks, and today is, what's the day today, the 30th of March. So I woke up this morning and I saw a post. I have a show and I had a lot of messages. A lot of people sent me a post by Jack Simpson, the World Brewster Champion, and asked me if something had happened. Anyway, so I looked at the post and, let's just get the opening hook up of it. What did I say? Pre-batch to espresso is not good for the industry. Here's why. Read caption below. Now, I'll be honest, when I first saw that, I thought, yep, this is probably just a hook. I'll read what's in it and see what's up. You know, Jack and I are really good friends, friends of 10 years. Anyway, so, but then I read what he said and I'll read it back to you now. So I'll read the whole thing out and then we'll go over it as we go. Pre-batch to espresso is against what we strive for in the industry. Rough start. Here's the issues. Fast coffee exists now in convenience stores, in petrol stations, while they have their place, a specialty coffee shop is different. We celebrate coffee, apply attention to detail and other last connection to the customer, sharing the story of the value in our coffees. In a time where the cost of running a cafe is increasing, we need to be showing why specialty coffee is different, while we should be charging more and what separates us from the traditional market. We should be charging more because it's worth more. Specialty coffee is special for a reason. Farmer's go to great lengths and risk to achieve even small incremental gains in cup scores. We invest in high quality equipment and highly skilled baristas. While some customers want their coffee fast, specialty coffee is an experience, not a convenience. We shouldn't be saying, oh well, the customer can't even notice. What separates a good barista from a cafe? What separates a good barista and cafe from a great one is focusing on all the small details when no one is watching. Let's keep specialty coffee special. There wasn't really the positive spin in that that I was hoping to read, given that, again, friend of 10 years. Then, a couple of the fact that, well, Jack's actually my account manager. He works for actual coffee, actual coffee roasters, who actually roasts all the beans for my shop. Whenever I need something, whenever I need, I don't know, like a grinder fixed, which they also provide or some other things, he's the guy I go to. I was a little bit surprised because I never got a warning of this. I never got a heads up text or call. I saw him last week and invited me to his wedding. Then, yeah, I've never heard any such criticism from him. There's obviously a lot in that. I'll just go back over some of the things that I can't take issue with. First, coffee exists now in convenience stores or petrol stations. While they have their place, especially coffee shop, is different. Is that for everyone? Is that really for everyone? I'm not really too sure. We celebrate coffee's applied attention to detail and to the last connection to the customer sharing story of the value in our coffee. Now, I just don't understand and not specifically relating to him, but I get a lot of criticism on this. There's no shortage. I also dish out my fair share of checkiness online, I guess you could say. I have to expect some back. I do, and I deal with it. Thankfully, I'm not too offended by much on the internet because most of the people are just randoms that I've never met before. That's just how it is on the internet these days. I'm sure we all encounter that. But this isn't someone random. This is my friend. The guy who's charged with making sure that my business runs smoothly. I heard this. It's not exactly a positive end to all this. Let's just shook a coat. Clearly, it does not like the idea. Anyway, at least he's open about it. At least he's open about it. I would have preferred to tell me to my face, but not always available in this world. I'm sure there's plenty more people that come and say nice things to many in person and then say negative things, but I'm on my back. It's just gone out of the way it is. In a time where the cost of running a cafe is increasing, we need to be showing why specialty coffee is different. Why we should be charging more and what separates us from the digital market? You're right. That is why I made this. That is the exact reason why I made this because it's increasing so much. Part of this is reducing, preferably the capital cost and also the operating cost of a cafe. That is 100% my pure motivation for doing this. I really struggle to understand this critique because that's one of the sole things I'm trying to address. It can be done and the coffee is still extra good. I'm not serving any lower quality coffee. I'm actually serving higher quality coffee than your average consumer. My bill with Axel is huge. I probably spend $5,000 Australian dollars a week probably more on coffee for two cafes. We're using a lot of these co-ferment coffees, which get it's not for everyone, but it's special. This is another thing that I take average with because a lot of people say it. Why aren't things like this special? Who decides what specialty is? Is there a definition? Who made it? When was it established? Did we vote on it? I was never there for that. There was a series of talks a few years ago when I think it was Mark Dunnett from 7 to Seeds was saying specialty coffee is dead. I don't know. I don't conceptually agree with that saying, but who's the never-lawed that sits at the top of the throne and decides what specialty coffee is? Is it these people that only drink washed coffee? You know those people that only drink washed coffee and they decide that it's not specialty on this. It's washed. I really don't agree with that either. I don't charge less. I guess what people hate about what I'm doing is that, yeah, I don't charge less because the products know less quality. It's no less equality. I've done videos with the Brewster House of Guys, where we did a blind experiment on tasting pre-batch espresso and it was fine. We could not guess. We had a former runner up in the Brewster Championship, wasn't able to pick all of them. I wasn't able to, I've been drinking coffee a lot over the last 10 years. Most people can't detect it. I've tested Scott Rower with it a couple of times, once on camera, and he wasn't able to pick which one was pre-batched and which one wasn't. So, I mean anecdotally speaking, it's very much the same quality. What's my benchmark? Well, I've been doing this for a while. A lot of people criticise me about a lot, about a lot. But this is one thing that I've probably put more work into than anyone else on the planet. Still a long way to go. Still a lot more to figure out. But I think I would have some good knowledge. And by the way, this isn't my first time kind of doing something that a lot of people in the industry took notice of. This tattoo in my arm is of the old sub-zero.
a coffee. So what I used to do with that is freeze coffee and serve it on demand. So we had coffee lists and menus that were up to 50 coffees long. And we would, yeah, you could have like your choice of 10 different espresso, 10 different milk coffees, 10 different filters. And it was all, they were all fantastic. And so, you know, that business didn't really work out, you know, COVID really, really hurt me in that regard. But, you know, it is what it is. But like I'm no stranger to doing things that I guess you could say different, but also really high quality. And, you know, frankly, that changed the game. And that was one of them. I was extremely proud of the work I'd do with that. And I'm extremely proud of the work I'm doing now. And I'm not stopping. Like I'm just not stopping. I like it. I love it. And, you know, I think what bothers me about, you know, the whole pre-batch thing is at the moment, is that so many people, for so many people, it's just about clicks, it's about views, likes, shares. But for me, it's never like I put my money into this. I put so much into this. And it's not just about clicks and likes and, um, no deride. It's like I want to make an impact. I want to do something that heck, if no one else wants to do fine, I'll do it all by myself. But it is specialty. It's special. The coffee tastes fantastic. And frankly, if anyone disagrees, fine, I disagree with you. Um, and I think part of my motivation is that I can't afford to pay for really good quality coffee and reduce my costs and not put my prices up like to be able to compete. But I still like us. If you, I still got some of the most expensive coffee meal and six dollars for a flat one, seven dollars for a coffee man drink. I mean, yeah. I think in an ironic sort of way, what I really want to be able to do is sell coffees like this and be able to offer something like a pour over, which we did at the Melbourne International Coffee Expo was on last week. And as well as at our King Street store, this is as well as having a really amazing offering of pre-batched coffee. So I think we had four different coffees that I pre-batched. I posted a reel about it. And I pre-batched all of those coffees so that I could have four different single origin espressoes. And obviously with espresso, if you're drinking it, like I don't pre-batch it, the pre-batching is specifically for milk drinks. Pardon me. And then we had some pour-overs as well. So whether it's pre-batched or freshly made, conventionally made, we do it all. And we make it all amazing. And I've got an extremely skilled team and they do a great job of what they do. And so, and the feedback that we got from customers, whether they had a pre-batched or whether they had one of the other coffees loved it. Loved it. Everyone loved it. Maybe not everyone said it to my face if they didn't like it. But, you know, the strawberry cheesecake, coffee, tesh-lux, strawberry, cheesecake. The melon ice cream tasted like melon ice cream. The bubble gum tasted like bubble gum and it has blend tasted great. So yeah, we shouldn't be saying, oh well, the customer won't even notice whether they don't. A lot of the time they don't. And yeah, I've done experiments where I've done days where I haven't really told my customers where they would that I am doing it. They're pre-batching. And they've absolutely loved it. And like sometimes they'll even come up and, you know, complimenting me. It's like, damn, this tastes really good. Okay. No worries. But nowadays, like, you know, I've done that in a few different occasions. But I'm very transparent about what I do. Like we it's we're there news to all projects zero, flint of street. It's in your face. There's big taps that display what the blends are. It's all very open. People come in and film it. And, you know, a lot like actually a lot of customers really like what they're doing. And if I can draw back on the sub zero experience and contrast it with what I do now, I always struggled telling people, this is a natural gauge from Panama. And this is what it tastes like. And this is what you should be experiencing. It costs $20. And it's great. It's amazing. It's from this producer. And now I do these co-ferment blends where I just put strawberry cheesecake on a bag and I put the strawberry cheesecake beans in the bag. And when they brew it, it always tastes like strawberry cheesecake. And it is so much easier. Like it has been the gateway in a strange sort of way. It has been the gateway for people to get into specialty coffee. But how many more people, if I'm like a Jehovah's Witnesses specialty coffee, how many more people have I converted doing this compared to what I was doing with sub zero? So many more, how many more connections have I made? How many more experiences have I created? How many more special moments? An incalculable amount? So yeah, I just some of this I just don't get. I'm used to the usual trolling. Like I really don't care. But obviously when it comes from your friend and your supplier, it raises a few ideas. What separates a good barista and cafe from a great one's focusing all the small details when no one is watching. Well, I mean, I'm always drilling it into my team that we're still making this at high quality. We're using the best of the best machinery to dial this in. I've got a, you know, you want it like, I would argue that this has been so positive for the development of my baristas. I've got in my ample, someone that works for me, Alex Moore. He came on the podcast a few months ago. Last year he came second in the Australian brews cut very close to winning. And you know, we're doing some pre-batch back then talking about it, being open about it. And it didn't hurt his curiosity, didn't hurt his ability to focus on the small details when no one was watching. It only met like we have the most curious bunch of stuff in all of Melbourne, all of Australia, perhaps even the world. And they focus on all the small details. And let's keep specialty coffee special. I don't even know what the fuck that means. But, you know, I think what we do is incredible with people like just to see your average punter say, oh, this one's the strawberry cheesecake tasting coffee. And that never happens. Like, oh, this is Jonathan Gasga's Zaza Pakamara. No one ever says that, but they do about the other things. I'm not saying that it's any less worthy. I'm actually trying to promote that it is. But let's live in reality here. You know, what I'm doing, whether it's with the use of co-ferment coffee or pre-batching espresso, I think I'm getting more people through the door. You know, I didn't know that this whole thing would just blow up and go so viral. I really had no idea. But it has. And again, like I've got all these people that I guess they come and take videos and post it and do well themselves and get a few likes and clicks and then say something else to say. But anyway, the effect that we have on our customers is real. And we've got a lot of people that appreciate the speed in which we do it. Like, you know, I never thought I never opened this thing wanting to be known as the cafe that does 10 to 15 second lattes. It wasn't really my intention. God damn it. It has caused some issues. But anyway, I digress for every humble servant. I'm not giving up. So yeah, I was a little surprised by all of this. And, you know, I really do feel like the impact that we're making is overwhelmingly positive. It's a little weird that randoms on the internet are defending me from my friend and a camera manager, but whatever, I guess that's the internet. But why am I doing the pre-pasta espresso again? Let's lay at the point. There's no one. I don't think there's anyone that sells the message of importance or who has sold the message of what needing to pay more for coffee, needing to do more for coffee producers. I don't know if there's a single human being that's devoted more work to that than me over the past two or three years, whether it's through podcasting, talking about it. I went and made a documentary about coffee in Indonesia and, you know, why we need to pay more and spoke about that in last year when I went to Indonesia. I don't know if there's more people that have sold that or tried to sell that message than me. Sure, I haven't done it on a competition stage in one, but like I've put so much of my time and my life into that that, you know, I just don't know what more I could do. I mean, I'll always do more, but like what more could I have done up until now? I really have no idea. And yeah, I wanted to make it an efficient alternative to coffee service that that can have a cafe owner up.
It is yeah, and you know the irony of this is that I had the I think it's guys from From flight coffee in New Zealand a few weeks ago They came into the cafe and they all gathered around this like this is the Flynn industry cafe and they all gathered around and you know they are they're asking questions and Honestly, I think because of the lack of noise because I'm of banging thing the portafilter to knock out the used puck and Because of the speed at which we could make coffee. I actually think it made their experience so much better I was able to focus on the more the service I was able to deliver was amazing If I wanted to make a poor over something I would have had the time Because the production time of making a latte is being greatly reduced so I would actually argue that I'm able to get better service. I'm able to focus on the smaller details a bit better And also like the quality let's talk about quality If you think about it It's actually far far easier to make Bigger batches and deliver consistently like if you're making 10 different espresso's You know consecutively using you know the conventional method list is called it You're effectively getting 10 different micro results if you make a hundred espresso and mix them all together It's like inconsistently consistent so yeah like you're probably still getting variances and extraction but you're blending it all together We can monitor the concentration if we want to and it still all tastes fantastic so I would argue that the quality is just as good if not better. I've had some of the best milk ovaries of my life doing the pre-batch stuff and Honestly, sometimes I prefer drinking the coffee down at Flinders Street. It's incredible. You should come try it You should come try it. If you're in Melbourne if you're in Australia, you should come try it. It's amazing But look I'm not gonna go on too much longer about this. I've got to just finish my work day but it yeah, I do apologize for not releasing more content lately. I've been extremely busy Just keeping up with both my stores At the Flinders Street store, I'll be honest. It's been a bit slow to get things going It's in a weird part of Melbourne that you know location wise. Maybe it's not the best and And it's but it's growing Week on week. It's actually growing. I'm feeling so optimistic about it now obviously we had a massive week with my last week and You know there's just publications wanting to write about us at all times. So I mean, yeah, there's a lot of interest in what we're doing and Honestly, I'm probably gonna transition my current store to it the the King Street stores are both stores will do it So I'm pushing ahead with it full steam But yeah, thanks to everyone who's been getting around me supporting project zero coffee in this I've been going through a lot of my personal life as well to to which you know, I Feel like I'm fighting a lot of wars on multiple fronts at the moment but you know This is something I signed up for and I'm not gonna be a pussy bear wanner and You know craft thou that you know all these people are being made to me on the internet. I can stand up for myself And honestly the idea has legs. It's great. So Yeah, I'm feeling extremely optimistic about it and You know, I think I've got a very exciting year and future coming ahead with pre-batch espresso and You know, I actually feel like Like there's so many projects that I want to get involved get done with that but I'm just super excited and you know, all I'm gonna say to sign this off is Watch this space. So thank you to everyone that's a Been a homeboy. I've been in supporting home girl even and you know This stop this train starts for no one All right, you get our listen to the third of the out of the day about how you can go to Oathley.com and find recipes for the amazing drinks already the future of taste report. It's from the future all learn about this Sustainability work or you can press the 15 sec forward button on your pot of blank device. It's totally up to you Maybe I should have used a wave machine or a vibrator. Maybe that would have made it special. Hmm
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
The host defends his pre-batched espresso method, arguing it reduces costs while maintaining high quality, using specialty beans and co-ferment coffees.
He criticizes a post by friend and account manager Jack Simpson, a World Brewers Champion, who claims pre-batch espresso harms the specialty coffee industry by undermining attention to detail and customer connection.
The host highlights that blind taste tests with experts (e.g., Brewers Cup finalists) show no detectable difference between pre-batched and conventional espresso.
He emphasizes that pre-batching allows faster service, freeing baristas to focus on customer experience and pour-overs, while ensuring consistent quality through batch blending.
The host notes that his approach attracts new customers to specialty coffee, using accessible flavors like strawberry cheesecake, contrasting with traditional high-end offerings.
He expresses disappointment that Simpson, as a friend and supplier, did not raise concerns privately, and reaffirms his commitment to innovation despite online criticism.
Summary:
The podcast host responds to criticism from friend and supplier Jack Simpson, who argued that pre-batched espresso undermines specialty coffee’s values of detail and customer connection. The host defends his method, explaining that it reduces rising operational costs while maintaining quality, using high-end beans and co-ferment coffees. He cites blind taste tests where experts failed to distinguish pre-batched from conventional espresso, and argues that batch blending ensures consistency.
The host claims pre-batching speeds service, allowing baristas to focus on customer experience and pour-overs, and has attracted new customers through accessible flavors. He expresses disappointment that Simpson did not address concerns privately, given their long friendship and business relationship. The host reaffirms his commitment to innovation, noting his history of pioneering techniques like frozen coffee, and stresses that his goal is to make specialty coffee more efficient and affordable without sacrificing quality.
He concludes that the positive customer feedback and growing interest in his cafes validate his approach, and he plans to expand pre-batching to all his stores.
FAQs
Pre-batch espresso involves making large batches of espresso in advance and serving them from taps, rather than pulling individual shots per order. It's controversial because some argue it undermines the craftsmanship and attention to detail that define specialty coffee.
He uses it to reduce capital and operating costs while maintaining high quality, allowing him to compete and offer specialty coffee at reasonable prices.
The host claims it delivers consistent, high-quality results, often indistinguishable from freshly pulled espresso in blind taste tests conducted by experts.
It speeds up service, reduces noise, and frees up baristas to focus on customer interaction and other tasks, enhancing the overall experience.
He argues that it makes specialty coffee more accessible, attracts new customers, and still uses high-quality beans and equipment, aligning with the goal of promoting better coffee.
Jack Simpson posted criticism of pre-batch espresso online, which surprised the host since they are friends and Jack is his account manager. The host was disappointed he wasn't contacted privately first.
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