Lessons on Money, Success, and Fulfillment You Need to Hear (ft. Lewis Howes)

Well, this house welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me dude. A podcasting legend Yeah, 12 years every week for 12 years have done a podcast every week I haven't recorded every week, but I've posted every week for 12 years. How many episodes now? 1700 1800 somewhere. Yeah, I know I'm like sleepy. Just hearing that number Like I need a vacation just from just from what you just said a blog post of you. Yeah Thousand, right? Yeah, I mean hundreds, but but it's it's cool having you here. You've been People don't know this behind the scenes. You've been a huge supporter of mine starting the show I appreciate like you reached out. You were super kind very helpful. Yeah, man. I really appreciate that So I'm curious you've interviewed I guess over a thousand yeah experts at this point. Yeah, right high performers top achievers I'm curious. I don't know if you still do this, but for a long time. I think the first two times I was on your show You ask everybody what their definition of greatness is I'm curious what how has your definition of greatness changed and evolved over the years You've been doing this 12 years. What was it when you started and what is it today? I think when it started I can't remember what exactly it was, but I remember who I was back then And I think it was more like just being number one being the best and being number one at whatever you do I thought that was greatness to me, which is like you have to go after your thing be the top of which can be Take your talents to the farthest and be number one and be the best and I don't think that's wrong. I think it's just evolved with that and I think we should be developing our unique talents and gifts to You know, we should pursue our dreams and develop our unique talents and gifts in that pursuit I think it's also making the maximum impact on the people around us And if that's millions of people great if that's five people great, it's like how can we take our talents to pursue the thing We're called to do which I'm sure you're gonna ask me what that next calling is for me right now in the future And how do we how do we take it as far as we can but in that journey making impacts on the people around us in the best possible way That's for me is like my current definition. Yeah, what's interesting about that is The whole concept of being number one, right? It's like the number one among what like what is the You know, what's the the the circle that you're drawing and putting yourself in and deciding your number like it's a very arbitrary kind of metric and it's almost like I do think when we're younger, we kind of just look at kind of maybe traditional societal measurements of the best or number one or the top achievements and I guess as you get older you start learning that like hey, you get the define for yourself. Yes, like what what are you measuring yourself by what are you gonna be great at What are you gonna be number one at right? Yeah, for me it was like okay, I kind of be the best in sports And then that was done how can I be the best in my industry of business or whatever you podcasting or whatever might be and That energy is this very competitive versus collaborative. Yeah, and I I learned Around the time of launching the show that I was just like oh, I need to shift it from trying to win to try and to get everyone around me to win with me Yeah, and if I can have that energy, it's just much more enjoyable and we were talking about you know someone else before we started the recording It's like seeing other people thrive for me is exciting Because it shows me oh, maybe I could get there as well one day if they could do it Maybe I could do it and it doesn't mean I'm less than if someone else is greater than in this moment or having a different type of moment or selling better or performing better It just means there's a lot of space for everyone. Yeah, and everyone can have a moment or a season and that's great Do you struggle with that sometimes that competitive? I used to yeah, I used to feel more like insecure and jealous It's like they have something I don't have or they're better than me and something so how do I get better? And now I'm just like how do I be my best how do I stick to my mission and be better every day, I mean and really Me helping others grow like me reaching out to you and be like hey, how can I help you have a great podcast and launch your show and be be massive It doesn't pull back from me also being successful or making money and again The more collaborative I can be I've found that that kind of mastermind principle or Community principle really has supported me in return in times when I'm struggling or when I'm having a moment It's like I'm coming on your show, and I've got a book coming out and it's like if I didn't invest in you being successful in some way Maybe you wouldn't have been interested to support me in return, and I think just having that mindset in general is a more enjoyable way to live Yeah, I definitely agree with that and I'm a very competitive person as well, and I look at I look okay You look at metrics and you want to be number one? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course Yeah, I but it's I do look at my younger self, and I used to I had a lot of I used to have a lot of competitiveness and like my friendships Uh-huh, and I think a lot of guys young men do that, and it's something that Now as an as an older man like I look back, and I'm like that was so stupid like it was so Because it created a lot of unnecessary conflict contention created a lot of jealousy, you know resentment on both sides, you know And if he was completely unnecessary. I'm curious like was there any specific Experience or occurrence that like shifted that for you? Or was it like a very gradual process over time? Oh, man I think it's probably multiple instances over time. It's more of a feeling I know I know this may not be something you like talking about, but it's more of like an energy. I just felt like Why am I always in judgment? Why am I always feeling less than why am I always doubt it? Why am I always in competition with other people? over the years, and I was in a place of scarcity and lack even though I was driven to succeed or I was driven to accomplish If I'm in comparison and I'm comparing myself to someone else's success It means I'm not there yet or I'm not as good as them right and when it's coming from a place of jealousy or insecurity rather than celebration of that person Then again, it's just an energy that doesn't feel good. Yeah, it feels just like a lower energy And I want to have a higher energy when I'm doing things. Yeah, so it's a constant reminder even today It's like we have friends that are thriving right now bigger than what we're doing at this moment And I have to constantly say like good for them. No, I'm excited for them Even if that's a fake it sometimes it's like yeah, I'm excited for them. Do I wish I could be there? Sure Yeah, it's like of course, I wish I was maybe farther ahead or having that type of opportunity But like good for them and here's something that I feel like I've started to learn really last four years It's like there's not many people who've done what you've done for a long time Who've written content and been successful as an author and a writer for a decade plus or however long it's been It's not many people in the pie casting world for 12 years right and I'm starting to think more of you know In eight more years 20 years Can I can I make this enjoyable fun continue to grow and thrive for the next eight years Obviously evolve and innovate but Not many people are going to be able to do that for a long time and I'm starting to look at that more as a metric for me Of I'm innovating. I'm growing. I'm making a difference in an impact. I'm able to build my business Maybe there's a moment where things just really explode in the bigger way Maybe not but as long as I'm really enjoying it and not letting it stress me out constantly I feel like that's a big win because it is an energy We want to feel light. We want to feel free. We want to feel expansive. Abundant. We want to feel loved all these different things Yeah, and if I'm just chasing to be number one where I'm feeling separate because I'm lacking what someone else has That doesn't feel good. Yeah. Well, we were talking before we went live I mean you're you're doing this book launch, right? And like I've been through it. You've been through it like a typical book launch It's just this wall-to-wall you're doing 20 interviews a day week after we exhausting you try You're in like five different cities you're doing events you're going on TV like it's it's absolutely exhausting You you just you wear yourself to the bone and you said you're like I'm not doing that this time I'm doing like five to ten interviews I'm good and I like it's funny because I when you said that I immediately and I was like I admire that like I know Because I know how hard it is to turn down all those opportunities But I think that is it is it's a demonstration of like that reprioritization away from like Because you could you could just like murder yourself over the next three weeks. I should try to make this thing number one everywhere you know and Burn yourself out, you know, and like just really drain all your energy not be present when you come home Not be present with your team with your with your wife like Not saying it's bad not it's bad to go all out like It's good to be able to go all out like sometimes I sometimes I tell my wife. I'm like I like knowing that I can go balls to the wall if I have to but like I don't want to live there. Yeah, there's a price you pay for that too. I mean again, it's all seasonal It's like maybe it was ten years ago. It was my first book. I would like I have to do everything I can And if I'm not married and I'm single and it's like I can do it and I don't care what happens to my body But my mission is to try to be as healthy as possible right now during everything with what I'm doing. Yeah And so it's like okay, I've got to really be I have to make better decisions on what I'm going to give my energy to when I'm going to do interviews Whereas before two years ago I did a book launch and I think I did 63 interviews within three months And I was exhausted again like 20 pounds. I was just burnt out and it didn't see the results in my mind that I thought I would do So it's like, okay, I could kill myself trying to get excited. extreme results. It got good results, but it didn't get what I thought I would get. So what's the point of doing that again? If I'm me killing myself again for three months, will it give me the results I want? I don't know. And is it worth losing my health to get those results? Right. At this season, it's not anymore. Yeah. Yeah. For just the, you know, 20% more book sales, 10% more book sales than the first month or whatever. I want to go back really quick, because a thought occurred to me when you were talking about kind of how it was like a slow mindset shift over time of just like how that competitiveness and comparison made you feel worse, gave you a worse energy. It struck me as you were talking. I'm like, it's funny that like you built your show is the school of greatness. Like the whole concept around it is you find the top performers in each area of life in each field. And so one, I guess one thing I never considered is that the experience of doing your show is that you are constantly putting yourself in front of the person who's number one at something. Yeah, they're all better than me. Yeah. So if you are comparing yourself, you're going to quickly drive yourself crazy. Yeah. So it's almost like I kind of have this therapy that are this theory that that people, people who create media or content, like we create our own therapy. Yeah. Like we create the advice that we actually need ourselves. And I just found it interesting while you're talking. I'm like, it's funny. He kind of created the show. He created the show that like the most. Yeah. I did it the most. Yeah. And again, I was extremely competitive in sports. And then I tried to be competitive in business. But you interview someone who's making more than you. It's like, Oh, okay, I'm nobody compared to this person. So it's like quickly. I learned like I was like, how do I get there as fast as possible in all these different places in the first few years? Yeah. I was like, I will never be able to do that. And I just need to continue to be a student and just try to improve a little bit every day in the areas to feel more whole as a human being. And I might sound a little lame or something. But I think a lot of us want to feel peace. Yeah. We want to feel wholeness. We want to feel like we are enough. And whatever, you know, in our own world, we want to feel whole. And for most of my life, I felt broken. I felt wounded and I felt triggered. And I was driven to succeed to feel more whole. But the success didn't create wholeness. So about 10 to 12 years ago, I started on a healing journey to figure out, how do I create that wholeness within me? And that's kind of what the show has been my own therapy. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because your background sports business, it's like very, very masculine, masculine. It's very like sex. Crushed on it. But you're actually like, you're very sensitive, emotionally aware guy who like and like a lot of the guests and the content on your show like the last few years, it's like, it's a lot of, it's more relationship stuff. It's more emotional stuff. It's more like developing maturity and and it's funny. It is, it is, it is almost like, it's what I lacked. Yeah. The most my life thing. That's like, I was one mode. It's like, when achieve goals, succeed, get girls. Yeah. It was like, that's the mindset of like some young man, right? It was like, yeah. But when you have all those things or when you're accomplishing those things at a certain level or whatever, and you realize, oh, this isn't the answer to creating fulfillment or wholeness or self love or peace. I was just like, oh, man, all the money that I was making wasn't making me feel peaceful. Yeah. So if that's not the entire answer, what is the answer? And that's the journey. So your background is in sports and athletics, which we've alluded to. We've now, we've talked about what doesn't transfer over like that, that kind of sports competitive mentality doesn't translate over into everyday life. Maybe so effectively. I'm curious. What did you learn in sports and athletics that has translated over into life? Vision. Yeah. Vision was the thing that I think I was either given the gift or developed the gift over years of playing sports. And I don't know if you had this playing, you know, jazz guitar or whatever, if that was something you had or you had some of the creative element from that, the ability to improvise what was coming next while you're playing. Although I think that you said like your first month at Berkeley, you were like, Oh, I give up because I you were comparing yourself to like the average guitar player there who was dominating you. I mean, I made it six whole months. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, yeah. It's not for half or something. Yeah. Exactly. But for me, it was, I was never the most talented when I was, you know, in kind of middle school and high school, not until I got into like my later years in high school where I became more like the all-star on the team. But early on, I just had a lot of failure in sports, but I was willing to just train all day long. And where I lacked an athletic ability, I was able to create spacing and awareness on the field, on the court, whatever it might be and see where the ball needed to be or where I needed to be. And so I lacked the speed and the jumping capabilities, but I was able to see what was going to come next. And was that something you practiced or? It was, it was, I don't even know how it happened. I think it was just because I lacked the other skills that certain guys had of like natural speed and natural jumping, I had to find a way around to make up that space. Gotcha. To save that time where they could excel in speed or strength. And that ability to almost see things of the peripheral and have patients allowed me to excel because I would just always find a way to get the ball. I'd always be in the right spot. I'd always just knew where it was going to be. And a lot of people asked me like, how did you excel quickly on my kind of business path when I first got started in my, I guess, mid to late 20s? And everyone was like, how did you get here so quickly? And all I did after sports was done was I said, I don't know anything else about life except for how to relate it to sports. I don't know how to make money. I don't know about relationships. I don't know about any of this stuff, but I know I need to find a coach because the greatest athletes, they hire better coaches after they win the championship. And they find more specialists to support them to excelling and maintaining that championship level. So I was like, I just need to find a coach who's already done it before in life. And I need to think of life as seasons of like the first season. I gotta figure out a way to get out of my sister's couch. Okay, what do I need to do in these three months? And then I just started breaking it down in seasons like a sport and asking the coach to guide me on how to get there. And what I was really good at was vision. I knew where I wanted to go. And I was really effective at working extremely hard daily until I accomplished the goals and receiving feedback from the coach. And that's what I did as an athlete. I was coachable. I could receive feedback. And I would just, you tell me to do something for three hours a day. I'm doing it. Okay, tell me to do it for how long I'll do it. Yeah. And I think that consistency, again, I've been doing the podcast for 12 years. And it's like, I'm just going to keep showing up. As long as I'm enjoying it, and I feel like I'm improving, I'll keep showing up. Yeah. It's like, it's just this like old school work ethic. It is. Yeah. I think I got that from sports. Yeah. So with everything that you've learned and experienced, if you were to create like a greatness 101 curriculum, like what are what are the first lessons? What are the what are like the basic tenets of like, okay, you want to you want to achieve something more in your life, whatever it is, whether it's sports, art, business, whatever. What are like the first three or four things you have to have? I don't know what order this goes in, but the first one goes back into having a mentor that has a model that you would like to mimic. So a mentor who's already done something that you see, oh, I want to get to this place and finding someone who's got some type of a model to getting there. So if there was a young person that said, I want to be an author and I want to write and I want to do really influential writing, then they could look to you as a mentor, whether they can connect with you personally or just see your content online or this podcast because you have a model that they can follow and they can start to mimic from where you started to where you are. That'd be one is like really finding good coaches, teachers, mentors, and some people don't have that in their parents so you can find that in other ways. I don't know if you read a lot of books growing up and you kind of had that mentorship through books through reading or if you had great teachers coaching you, but for me, I had great coaches and I would not be where I'm at without those coaches. So I think find those the best way you can and if you can't then find the books in the podcast like this. The second element of greatness for me would be emotional regulation because it's something I lacked for most of my life. I was very reactive when I was triggered. I had a lot of wounds from my childhood psychologically, emotionally, physically and anytime someone poked on the wounds, I would react and it's because the wound never healed for me. So I didn't know how to regulate those emotions and I felt like I needed to defend myself, protect myself, fight back, whatever might be. And I think emotional regulation for me, the learning the the art of it is really learning how to have courage to create boundaries instead of reacting and letting someone else have power over you. And also really learning to look at your past and create meaning from these wounds or the stresses or the traumas that we've had and being okay at looking at them for a period of time. Processing them for giving yourself for giving someone else. However, that looks for you and then integrating the healing lessons So you can feel more peaceful in your nervous system. My nervous system was never calm. It was always like hyper Sensitive. Yeah, and I was easily triggered. I wanted to please everyone But I felt taken advantage of and abused by them And it all stand from childhood traumas that I never healed. So I felt very Unsafe inside of me and it wasn't until I was able to process these things and create better emotional regulation Where I felt oh, I'm good with me. I'm calm. It was that through therapy, meditation, all of it Okay, it's through everything. All the things and it's been a journey Yeah, it wasn't like oh, I just did a few sessions and I'm good It was a journey and with every new level of my life of financial success, different relationships, marriage, you know breakups, whatever it might be I had to learn how to regulate at different levels as well. It comes back Yeah, and it comes back and bites you in the ass in new ways In new ways man. It's like and so new levels create new devils. I think that's a phrase. It's like So at the learning how to use the tools that I've learned in a previous season that applied to the current season of emotional regulation and you just see You know, you just see so many people get to the top and then fall because of their emotions. Yeah, their stresses or the lack of emotional regulation So that'd be the second thing really having great coaches mentors teachers Whatever you want to call it therapist doesn't matter. Someone that can mentor you in some way and give you tools to support you in getting where you want to be and You're being able to receive feedback emotional regulation. I think is Something I wish I would have learned when I was five. Yeah, you know 10 15 30, you know 40 You know, it's like I'm the 42 next week. Better late than never. And it's a constant process of learning how to regulate my emotions Then I would think the the next element of greatness is Which is the first habit in the the book that I have which is the mindset habit and I really believe that Gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance is the gateway to a flourishing life and a more abundant fulfilling life And I know you don't like the word abundance and manifest and all these things You're very you repel when someone says those words like you like it with that. I didn't stand that so I think gratitude and being a generous human being is the ingredients for You know, just a flourishing prosperous life. Yeah, a rich life and For me most people say well, once I have the success or the money then I'll be giving and then I'll be generous Then I'll be grateful that I have it, but I think we really have to say okay. I Have nothing. How can I be grateful for where I'm at and the little wins every single day the little moments that are little victories And how can I be generous if it's not with money? How can I be generous with my time my attention my presence my curiosity with the human being? My resources my ability to connect people my ability to give information freely whatever it might be and I think that's really the key to To greatness. Well, the irony with what you just said to because I've run into the same thing is You know people they say well, I don't have anything right now. So how can I be generous? Why should I help other people? It kind of and they think like well, once I'm successful once I have abundance then I'll be generous with people But it kind of works the other way around like when you're generous with people They want to support you and they want to give you opportunities and they want to help you along your path and I remember this I should remember it was like a marketing seminar. I saw once I think it was Dan Kennedy years and years and years ago And he was saying he was like everybody wants to convince a million people to give them a dollar And he's like but what you should be doing is you should be trying to give a million people a hundred dollars worth of value for free and then Ask you know when then they will be compelled to give you a dollar without you even asking it right so true And it's just like it's like leading with the giving hand And I I've like I've just found that to be true and so many walks of life whether it's business relationships You know pursuing a skill or a hobby any any any pursuit that involves like networking and relationships in any way like it's just Just be helpful generosity man. He is full. Yeah, and I just think that will it's more sustainable energy long-term You might be like taking energy and get to a certain level at one point But then it's like you burn a lot of relationships people are like ad don't work with that guy or that gal And it's not sustainable long-term. Yeah, so I think greatness is something that you can sustain for a long time Yeah, and you've got to be grateful and generous. Yeah Well, let's talk about the new book you mentioned it briefly. I was very interested And impressed I don't say skeptical because you know is it? No, no, it's actually really cool like I'm glad I'm glad somebody because there's so many money books out there this and you took an angle that I have not seen anybody else Right, which is like there's there are no charts and tables. There's like very little math in here There's no like interest rates and here's no it's not an investing book Here's the best credit card you get like it's it is all about the mindsets and emotions and attitudes and beliefs that we have around money And how they sabotage us and how to like prevent them from sabotaging us. So the first thing I'm just curious What inspired it like where did this come from and well of at the time, you know 9 10 years of doing the podcast All the conversations I had around money and as I start and I stopped asking people like how do you make money and how do you manage your Emotions around money and what is the energy the beliefs the mindset around how to create an abundant life With or without money those episodes just really kind of took off So I was like oh, people are really struggling around money money conversations are one of the biggest reasons why people get divorced or break up in Relationships people feel like they attach their self-worth to their net worth So if you don't have anything you feel like you're not worthy or feel like you're not valuable So why is that and I also just was very confused around money as a kid. I didn't understand it I didn't know how to make it. I didn't think I was talented enough that someone would give me money It's very confusing and I wasn't taught this in school like no one taught me how to manage your emotions around money And as you know our our beliefs influence our behaviors Yeah, and the more we think and feel about something we usually act in alignment with that way of thinking and then we get the results in our life as I started to make money in my late 20s and 30s I Just started to reflect and I was like okay, I was a extreme saver. I wouldn't spend it because I was afraid to go broke and be on my sister's couch again So I would work really hard save all this money It was in the bank and I would still take buses Greyhound buses across the country and not buy a plane ticket and then when I would buy a plane ticket I would get like the cheapest seat with three connections Middle middle row like four-a-m departure Like how can I say save save cuz I don't want to go back and be broke again. Yeah, yeah, so I had millions But I was living in scarcity and I felt anxious and stressed about money and I was always like if someone trying to rip me off When I'm spending someone for a consultant are they really charging me the right fair? I was just like anxious around it and I wanted to learn the skills for me and how to feel more peaceful around money and again I was like I had money, but I felt scarce. That's not a rich life to me. That's not a Abundant life. That's not a beautiful life. It was stressful Money created more problems for me. It it solves certain problems, but it made me feel more anxious and stressed at the same time and Even with the money I wasn't taking care of myself for like even just getting a normal seat on a Airplane so that I wasn't breaking my back, you know on this like cramped airplane or whatever It's like I wasn't willing to invest in things to add value to me cuz I was afraid of going broke And it took me years to kind of heal that mindset and and kind of retrain my mindset to thinking okay It's okay to spend on certain things and and how can I feel safe spending and investing in me or things are gonna bring me more joy I'm working so hard to make this money But I'm not investing in it to make myself feel better. Why? So it's just like looking at my own beliefs and seeing where that came from and I realized I had a lot of money wounds That created my money story. Yeah, and as I started asking people like what's your money story? What's your money wounds people really didn't understand what I was talking about and so I said okay, let's do an example right now mark imagine The idea of money is represented in a person in a person who is money walks through the door right now And they represent money. They are money to you the thoughts the feelings the emotions around money They walk in the door. What's the first thing you think or feel if money walked in the door right now? The first word that came to mind was douchebag I think a big part of this is my upbringing, you know, I I grew up in Texas very You know suburbs quasi rural like area that I grew up in and then also kind of that you know my mom's from the Midwest my dad's from Texas like the attitude towards money where I grew up is very much it's it's you you stay humble you try not to stick out like you know if you drive a fancy car or have a fancy watch like oh you think you're better than us huh you know like it's very much it's it's people are always kind of cutting each other down and people who do have money are you kind of playing it down because you don't want to stand out too much so that's me too and yeah that's that's me for a long time yeah and I I definitely feel like I've kind of personally gotten away from that to a certain extent not completely but to a certain extent but it's funny because I definitely see it in my family like it's when I go home and I see family and friends like you there's still very much that vibe and what were some of the conversations or some of the things you heard about money growing up you know some people here like uh money doesn't go on trees or maybe they just heard their parents fighting about money or like was there anything that you heard like rich people are like always like they did something wrong to make their money they hurt people to make money did you hear anything so my my dad did pretty well for himself like we weren't rich but like we were upper middle class like money was never a problem in my family you know we we went to good schools we had food like we lived in a nice house like parents had two nice cars like all that stuff so money was never a problem in our family I actually the the problem the discussions and the stress around money in my family was actually downplaying how much we had because I think in the neighborhood I grew up in we had some of the most money in the neighborhood right and so it was trying to not be too like high brow around everyone exactly because people like I said where I grew up people judge you for that right um you know I would I remember when I was a kid um I would invite a friend over from school and like their parents would bring him and you know the the parent would kind of look at the house and be like wow what do you do for work you know like it was just and but kind of in a sneering judgmental way and uh I definitely in like that got indoctrinated into me especially you know growing up in Texas too like people talk tons of shit about New Yorkers and Californians and like yeah like don't be one of those east coasters who's like superficial or snobby yeah to yeah don't get too big for your bridges like stuff like that like interesting yeah that we fear people's judgments of how big we can get or how much wealth we can create and therefore we want to downplay it in some ways unconscious leave unconsciously of like oh we don't want to offend anyone or we want to look too good for ourselves or whatever it might be um and that's just interesting and what I want everyone listening or watching to think about is just if money walked in the door how would you initially react yeah that was your initial reaction what a douche bag right it was like yeah and maybe it was kind of a little joke in there but it's like that was your initial reaction that was that was the honest gut reaction yeah you were like oh I'd give it a big hug and welcome in and come sit down next to us you know it's like you'd kind of be like get out of here yeah what do you need it yeah you'd be thinking that way so I want everyone to think about that reflect on it and if you're watching on youtube leave a comment of what money represents to you look at this guy so this is a pro at work share comment and share if money walking the door what's your initial response leave a comment detailed comment on the love this and also milk the engagement let's go well I want everyone to be reflecting on this because here you're going to get a lot of value seeing everyone else's comments on how other people think about money and I'll just share one one story that uh I asked uh someone close to me who's in their 20 late 20s uh so I guess that's Gen Z I don't know what that is but is that Gen Z if you're like 27 28 yeah and I said if you're at a restaurant and money walks in the door what do you do yeah and they said I I would run to the bar and hide and then I would talk about money behind its back and gossip about it and say nasty things about it then when it came up to if it came up to me I would act like I was its friend it'd be nice and polite then I would use it and abuse it to get what I wanted and if it ever reached out to me I would ghost it and I was like damn holy cow that seems like a very unhealthy relationship with money and they were like I know it is wow and they're very honest that I appreciate it and I want everyone to be honest with what is your relationship with money like if you could make it a person or an idea how does it make you feel in your nervous system in your your mind and your body do you feel safe with money do you feel if someone gave you a gift mark if someone said here's five dollars I want you to have this how would that make you feel versive as someone said here's five million dollars as a gift I want you to have this right and just notice like your eyebrows went out when you said five million I was like just notice can you receive gifts from people can you see receive gifts from his friend and family or strangers or do you feel like no I could never take this just notice your reaction are you good at giving gifts or do you feel like I can't give my money away because then I'll never get it back do you hold on the money tightly are you relaxed with it and it can come and go freely because you have a healthy relationship with it there's not a right or wrong good or bad here it's just to notice what is your relationship do you feel you have a rich or abundant life emotionally with your relationship with money if not then it's time to go to money therapy address some of your money wounds again some of these words people may be like freaking out about but it's like just to notice them yeah notice these stories like you talked about and say how can I just start to mend or heal some of these and start expanding my ability to give and receive more well I do I love this conversation because in my experience in both and also with myself in my own life but also just with people I've been around I I generally find that people tend to either have you rationally positive associations with money or you rationally negative associations with like like nobody seems to have just kind of a neutral like yeah money's cool like yeah nobody does it's like a beautiful relation with you know it's everybody either thinks that money's going to solve all their problems and their life would be so amazing if they just you know had X X amount of dollars and then or they think that money's like the root of all evil it's causing all the issues in their life that they it's people who rich people are assholes and scumbags and cheating everybody and there's no kind of like sane middle ground and it's it's so weird to me like I I actually I wonder why why do we attach so much emotion to money I mean that's what I'm trying to figure out yeah I think because of the wounds around it and the power that it gives people when you have money you feel more powerful when you have less money you feel less powerful and no one wants to feel disempowered they don't want to feel like they're out of control they want to feel in control money and sex are like the two biggest drivers in life yeah it's the thing we drive to have more of until we can regulate our emotions and feel like okay I can have a healthy amount of sex yeah hopefully with one person because that's going to be a better dynamic hopefully fewer headaches fewer headaches less stress less drama spiritual alignment all these different things yeah and and hopefully I can have a healthy relationship with money where money doesn't make me feel powerful by itself because if it does if I lose money or if I give money or if I spend money I feel less powerful in certain ways or if it's my bank account is going down then my self worth is going down and I think it's attaching those things with our identity with how much money we have yeah don't have or how much debt we might have and most of the country is in some type of debt so people feel anxious they feel stressed around it and again my goal is to see how can I help people and help myself feel more peace in every area of life money is just one of the biggest charges for people and it can hurt a lot of people and but it can also help you if you have a healthy relationship so again I want everyone to ask themselves if money was a person how would you react in that and also another another question you could answer in the comments and you can answer here too is leave the second comment just a simple it's all just about assessing where we're at and saying does this support me yeah in feeling good yeah you want to call it abundant prosperous wealthy it's like do I feel good on a scale of one to ten mark ten being the most abundant peaceful and one being the most scarce and stressed out where are you on the the one to ten scale with your relationship with money so money is one of the few things I actually feel like I've I've always been very good with like in both emotionally and just managing finances I actually give a lot of credit my dad we could talk about that in a bit if you want I would say eight or nine eight or nine I very rarely stress about money I also I think I'm very realistic about it like I don't expect it really to solve any any of my major problems in my life you have any triggers around money when someone are you able to receive gifts well and do you feel like you're a generous person with your money do you feel when you have to spend money on taxes are you like this is bullshit enough fuck this shit you know are you like okay I see it for what it is and it's okay and you know is there any area of money where you get like stress out about honestly I could probably use I could probably be a little bit more anxious around money like I'm very too generous you to give it free I am very generous which I'm oh I'm actually okay with that I'm but I'm very I'm very comfortable with risk so it actually it's it's like you know I've had investments in the past. It's hurt you in the past. I've had investments in the past or maybe an Aaron trip to Vegas that I'm like, I'm like, you know, this should bother me a lot more than it does, but it doesn't. It's pretty healthy, as long as you're able to not risk so much of it. And you're just like, hey, this is okay, because I know money's going to come back to me, and I've done a good job with it. As long as it's not an addiction or a compulsion or anything, which it's not. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, my parents, they got a lot of things right, and they got a lot of things wrong, like most parents. But like one of the things they really nailed was the money thing. That's right. And I'm extremely grateful for that. Well, so there was a part in your book that stood out to me, and it was something I related to a lot. And I actually thought it'd be a fun exercise for us to kind of go through and discuss, you know, why each of these things were true for us at different points. So you had a section and you kind of just said it in passing. And I think it was in like the second or third chapter, but you said like, there were times in your life where you were broke and happy, where you're broken miserable, where you were rich and happy and rich and miserable. And I've had all four of those experiences as well. Yes. I read that. I was like 100%. 100%. And I was actually, it made me kind of wonder. I'm like, what, so what was it in each of those instances? So let's start with, let's start with broken happy. When were you broken happy? And why were you happy? I was on my sister's couch for a year and a half after playing Arena Football. And for the first six months, I was, I had a broken wrist so I was in a cast and I was really kind of just defeated because my identity was broken. For so long, I wanted to pursue this dream. I got to do it, but then it's over. And now I'm like, well, who am I? What is my value? What's my purpose? Why am I here? So I was in that kind of state of sadness, depression, whatever you want to call it, just down on myself. I didn't have any money. I had, I don't know, about 20 something grand in college debt. I didn't have a college degree yet. It was at the, you know, the height of the guest, the housing crisis of 2008, 2009. And I wasn't able to find a job. So it's just like everything felt like it was against me. And I was believing that everything was against me. And I have no power on powerless. That's when I felt I'm poor and I'm miserable. Yes. It's when I started to say to myself, OK, I can stay here in this kind of self-loathing state of mind, or I can create a game plan. And I can start to say, how can I just see improvement? It's not going to be a millionaire overnight. I'm not going to get off my sister's couch right away. But what are the things that I'm most afraid of? And I made a list of my biggest fears. And how can I start feeling more powerful by overcoming them and developing those skills? Public speaking was one of them. Reading and writing was one of them. Soliciting was a fear. All these different things. I had fears around. And so I found coaches in each area of those, you know, speaking, writing, reading, soliciting, and they all guided me on how to overcome it. I felt a lot of joy within probably three or four months. The beginning part of that I was terrified. And it was miserable because I really sucked at all of it. And I was just embarrassing myself in front of people trying these things. So it was very disencouraging in the beginning stages of overcoming fears. But within three to four months, I was like, oh, I'm getting progress. I'm seeing that I'm not as horrible. I'm just not as bad. And it was like one started. I started to figure things out and got some momentum in all these areas. I was like, man, I can do anything. I was like, I'm not great yet. But it's like, wow, if I could do even just this much, what else could I do? And that really made me feel excited about life and probably that I've never felt before. When I was the tail end of my sister's couch, I was salsa dancing three, four times a night around Columbus, Ohio. I was speaking at toast masters every single week. And I had a coach that was guiding me to get better. And I could see my growth. I was getting great feedback. And I was starting to write a book from another mentor that was helping me write my first book around LinkedIn actually. And it was just like, oh, I'm conquering the world, even though I still beginner at these things. And no one really knew who I was. And I wasn't making really any money. But I was like, man, I can do anything. And that felt very empowering. So I felt like I'm broke, but I'm like taken over the world. And that was very empowering. And then the time when I was, you know, making money, but unhappy was when all my relationships were falling apart around me, probably around 30 years old, about 12 years ago. And I was, had millions in the bank. I had success. I had like a personal brand. I had these things. But my business relationship was falling apart. My girlfriend, that relationship was falling apart. And I was going and playing basketball a lot in West Hollywood nearby. And I was just getting in fights all the time. I think I was so easily triggered. Yeah. Like someone could say anything or like, elbow me. And I just wanted to fight people. And I was like, what is wrong with me? So all these things started happening. And I was like, I should be really happy, but I'm not. And that's when I started the podcast. That's when I started going to therapy workshops. And I was like, Oh, I need to work on finding joy again and healing these things that are triggering me. And that's where I feel like I'm now at a place where I've made money. And I feel peaceful as well. So it's been a journey of the last 15, 20 years. It's interesting because it sounds like the transition when you were broke was it was actually more about lack of agency, the agency. You know, it's like that feeling of progress, that feeling of freedom, choice of like hope. Yes. Optimism. Yes. What about for you? What are those? It's funny. You and I actually have a very similar story here. So after I I graduate, I'm I think two years younger and you I finished school 2007 job market was in the toilet. I had saved up a little bit of money from playing poker, but like didn't really have any job prospects. And so I lived on my friends couch for about six or seven months. And in Texas or now this is in Boston. Okay. And my my thought at the time was like, well, I'll figure something out. Like I've got time. I just finished school. You know, I was still partying a lot. So I was like, I don't want to like change my lifestyle too quickly. You know, so I'll just kind of chill out and and see how things come. And then of course the crash about seven happens. There's no jobs anywhere. I ran out of money. And I'm I'm living on my friends couch. And I'm like literally taking 100 dollar loans from him each week. And doesn't feel powerful. No, no, it was absolutely miserable. Yes. It was completely miserable. Went through a process. I actually did end up getting getting a job a few months later. Hated it, worked some odd like part-time jobs eventually like found my way to starting my first business. And when I started my business, I was still broke. You know, it was like scrapping together to just I managed to be I remember the first $700 I made. I I went to the bank. I pulled it out all out of the bank account. Basically drew my bank bank account down to like 10, 20 bucks. Went back to the apartment and immediately handed it to my friend. Oh, man. See back to zero. Back to zero. You know, you should have that debt. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was rough. But I eventually hit a point where it was like, you know, the early blogging and the early business is starting to get a little bit of traction. But like I still wasn't financially stable. And from there, I moved, I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. She financially supported me for a while. But it was the same thing that you were talking about. It was like I was learning so much. I was getting better at all these different skills. I was learning web design, copywriting. I was developing myself as a writer. I was learning marketing. I was meeting all these interesting people starting web businesses. It just felt I very much kind of had the same mentality of like, I don't know how long it's going to take. But I'm eventually going to make it. And that feeling kind of sustained me through all that. And it's weird because now I would never go back and like, I know, but you look back. You're like, those are great times. Exactly. You get so nostalgic and like, you know, like, oh, man. So painful, but as often you learn so much, so much. Yeah. It's like, I really do look back on that time very fondly. And it's the sort of thing I would gladly go back and do like a week. But it's like, don't stay there. It's like a visiting somewhere. You know, you don't want to stay. And when did you feel like you had money, but you weren't happy? So immediately after Salt Art took off. You had success in money and fame. And then you weren't happy. Not well, not immediately after, but soon after. So I would say, you know, the book came out 2016. It hit number one everywhere around New Year's 2017. And then it just stayed number one everywhere. Pretty much all through 2017, 2018. And I would say starting kind of mid 2017, I fell into a pretty deep funk. And it's funny. I look back and it really had to do with that, that agency thing. That's that optimism. That sense of progress. I just felt, you know, this the success of the book was so vastly disproportionate from my expectation that I had no idea what to do with myself. Like it like broke my brain. It broke all my plans, you know, for the next five years of my life, like everything just got knocked off the table. And suddenly, you know, these massive checks are showing up in my bank account. And I'm like, I don't have to do fucking anything if I don't want to. You know, so I sat around a lot, played a lot of video games, you know, we're not drinking with friends, took the wife to Paris, like, you know, did the whole thing, but felt very lost and he very lost and very like, just disorienting, you know, kind of like afraid to do anything next, because anything I do next is going to be compared to this last thing. And it's, and it's, and it's going to not measure up at all in my head and in anybody's head. And of course, like nobody else really cares, but like, you, like of me, I care a lot, you know, it's, it's everyone else wanted what you had, and you were afraid of it in some sense. Totally, totally, and interesting. The result of this kind of became the follow-up book, but it actually made it difficult to know what the hope for because I'm like, I can't imagine anything better than this thing that already happened. And I'm still this like, fucked up anxious, you know, miserable dude with a hangover, like nothing changed, like my job, you were deserving of the money. So my, my wife struggled quite a bit with that. I, 'cause she was, you guys were married, so it's your money together, but she was like, I didn't create this, you know. I think, I think that was a big part of it. It was weird for me, it was just, there was like, this psychological adjustment period. So I still, I did some of the same things you did, which was like, I'm still like bargain-chopping for a flight to Miami. I'm like, I'm a multi-millionaire. Why am I just gotta do that? Yeah, exactly, you know? But for me, it wasn't, it wasn't so much out of like anxiety or stress that I was gonna go broke. It was more just like, it still hadn't sunk it. Like the math had not sunk in yet of like, dude, saving 50 bucks on a plane ticket. It's just like, it's literally not worth your time. And so there was a lot of that sort of stuff, like just kind of, like literally having to pull out a calculator and do the math and being like, oh, that is a silly thing to stress over. Like I shouldn't even think about, you know, a dollar figure this size. So there was like, there was a learning curve around that. But I think part of the difficult thing and this ties back into your book, like people do start treating you a little bit differently. Not everybody, like, I'd say two thirds of the people in my life were just very happy for me and everything was the same. But there was a significant minority of people that got a little bit weird. We're kind of awkward. People start kissing your ass a lot. You know, some people show up, start asking for things. - You can feel that energy. - You can feel it. - You can read it. - You can feel it. It's like the friend that used to be so cool and relaxed around you is like not relaxed anymore. - Yeah. - And a lot of it. - We've got meaty girlfriend that you're like, okay, you know, like, I need some space or whatever. - Yeah, yeah. Or like you start hearing from people from your past and they're like, come out after 20 years. - Yeah, it's like, where did you do it? - Some dude you went to high school with who's like suddenly wants to hang out and you're like, what? (laughs) - Yeah, that's weird. - Yeah, so it is, there's a lot of strange stuff like that that starts happening. But it was interesting watching that in people because what I quickly realized is that it really is about their relationship with money, right? Like I noticed that the people who got very awkward and uncomfortable around me, or like started resenting me or trying to kiss my ass, they had a very unhealthy relationship with money. - Interesting. - They thought money was gonna solve their problems or they measured themselves by their money. And so when I suddenly had a ton of it, they got weird around me. - It's kinda like the, I guess, your friend's parents that maybe came to your house and saw the guy's head like a nice home or something or whatever it is and like judging and assessing. Oh, what do you guys do for work? You know, it's like kind of shifting their energy around it. - Yeah, yeah. - That's interesting. - So it was, and then you mentioned earlier about the generosity thing like what I was younger, especially when I was broke, I definitely, I think I had kind of this naive but very idealistic idea of like, you know, if I'm ever rich one day, I'm just gonna take care of everybody. - Yes. - And I'm just gonna pay for things, gonna help everybody. - And what's the problem with that? - Oh, how do people don't like it? Like people don't accept it well. Some people do. Again, it's like most people, it goes well. - They're very grateful and appreciative. - Yeah, and you change lives and they're very, you know, but there's a sizeable minority of people like they, it doesn't sit right, it doesn't land. You know, they take it a certain way. They're like, oh, you think, oh, now you think you can decide what I do or, oh, now you think you're better than me so you get to tell me, you know, that you get to pay for my car instead of me. You know, like it was really-- - Oh, they might just say, oh, I expect that you do this now without appreciating it. I'm being grateful. - There's some of that. - Oh, you've got the money, so just do it for me. - There's some of that too. People, some people become entitled, some people become resentful, some people become envious. - It's interesting. - Yeah, it's a-- - And you are the one at the center who has to navigate the emotions of every relationship around money. - Right. - Which can feel overwhelming at times. - To set the boundaries and-- - You have to. - Expectations. - You have to constantly reinforce a healthy relationship with everyone else who has a opinion around money with you. - Yes. - And then be judged for that. - Oh yeah, people are gonna like it. When you say no, when you put a boundary, people don't like it. - Yeah, they're like, "Oh, well, you're rich now, so you don't have time for me anymore." - Yeah. - I see how you're just another greedy rich guy. - Yeah, exactly. - You know what I'm saying? - Oh, man. So you have to navigate those opinions of you and not give a fuck. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's like-- - It is the whole thing. Like I said, I'm like, I'm so glad you took this angle because I have not seen this angle taken by any money or finance book in any sort of significant way. I've seen it mentioned here and passing here and there, but like, it's a huge deal. Like again, as somebody who's been on both sides of it, you know, been the broke friend and family member who had to rely on others and also been the wealthy friend and family member who's been relied upon. Like it is when they have that toxic relationship with money, when they have that unhealthy relationship with money, like it does, it hurts them and it hurts the people around them. - 100% and, you know, you know, I both noticed that the quality of our lives are related to the quality of our relationships. - Yes. - My parents fought around money and just fought around a lot of stuff, but there was always stress and anxiety and insecurity at home. It's one of the reasons why I left home at 13 to go to a boarding school 'cause I begged them to send me away. They didn't want me to leave. I begged them because I didn't feel emotionally safe. Now they did the best they could with the tools they had. They both loved me, but they didn't love each other. So I have seen what happens when people have an unhealthy relationship with one another. And I've seen what happens when people live in fear of stress and anxiety around money in relationships with each other. Usually you break up at some point or you infect fear on those around you if you're responsible for their lives. Based on your energy, you don't create a safe space. And my whole journey has been about, you know, in terms of greatness is like emotional regulation and feeling peaceful. How can we feel rich, abundant, peaceful and good with ourselves? It's about a quality of relationship with ourselves and others and a quality of relationship with money because it heightens the emotions of relationships in life. And that's why I wanted to take this angle because I see so many relationships suffer because of money stress. A lot of divorce happens because of money stress and arguments and disagreements. And I think it's our responsibility as individuals who have platforms where we're trying to empower people is to give them the tools to be more empowered in their relationships. And I know I struggled to allow with this. And so this was for me as much as it is for others. Yeah. Speaking of relationships, you've just got married. Just got married, man. Yeah, like two weeks ago, three weeks ago. Month ago, month ago, yeah, yeah. Congrats. Feels good, feels good. And thanks for all your advice over the last couple of years talking about it, Dave. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a, I'm happy for you guys. Thank you. She's, she's wonderful. And you guys seem so happy together. Thank you. I'm curious what are your biggest lessons leading up to, both in like leading up to the relationship with Martha but also like leading up to the, the wedding as well? Um, I wanted to, I had so much, I guess, challenges in all my previous relationships. They were not healthy in a lot of ways. And I take as much responsibility as the other people in those relationships. But I just said when I was getting in a relationship with Martha and we first started dating, I just promised myself I'm going to do everything completely opposite of what I've done before. So the George Costanza strategy was completely, I was like, whatever idea before, let me really take inventory. Okay, I'm not going to have, we're not, I'm not going to get sexual early. Yeah, I'm going to delay it as long as possible, which for me, it was like the hardest thing to do originally. But I was just like, I'm not going there. If I want to take this seriously and see if she's a potential fit and an alignment with what I want in my life. And I can't make a clear decision if sex is involved. I can't. I know I sell too well because I feel too much and I'll get to connected. And I won't be able to make a good decision. So I need to eliminate that. That was one. Number two was I need to have the most honest, raw conversations and courageous conversations early and often. So we had money conversations early and often. We had conversations around kids, religion, sex, family, like all these different things early and often. Just exploring, hey, what does it really value? What do you really want? This is before you're committed. And then before we were committed, we're going out and dating a lot. I was like, I'm not getting into another committed relationship unless someone's willing to go to therapy with me in the beginning. And she was like, I'm down. And every woman that I was with before, it ended in therapy and they never wanted to go. So I was just like, I'm not doing this again where I'm the one feeling like I'm the only one growing right or willing to like invest in the relationship. So she was like, I'm down and we went to therapy early and often in the first year, not because something was wrong, but we wanted to create agreements early on. I'm just like, I grew up with my parents arguing and fighting so frequently that it just didn't feel good. And I was like, if I'm going to get in a relationship and get married and have kids in the future, I don't want that to be my environment. I just don't want it. So I want to make sure that there's anything that could be a disagreement. Let's talk about it now and see if we're in alignment. And if we're arguing all the time because we can't find alignment, then we shouldn't be together. And let's end this quickly. Not try to have fun and be like the romance phase for two years, then have the hard conversations. I was like, I'd rather end this quickly and you find a great guy and you find a great girl and it's both be happy. Then forcing something. So those elements really created something beautiful for me and for her that allowed me to feel emotionally safe and peaceful like I've never felt my life. And really feel like I could be 100% me and there was one condition I had for her when we got when we got committed, I said, I told her I will never get upset at you for who you're being. If this is who you are, which I think it's most of you what I've seen in the first few months, I have no reason to get upset at you unless you're lying to me about something. But I have no reason to get upset for your personality because I like who you are and I'm choosing to accept you. My only caveat is you can't get upset at me for who I am. If there's something that's upsetting you about me, we need to discuss about it and have a courageous conversation that is not screaming make wrong or you need to change none of that. You can talk to me as much as you want about something, but you can't get upset at me and yell at me. It's just not something I'm willing to deal with. And so anything you have a frustration with me, fine, bring it up. Let's talk about it like a human beings. And if we need to go to therapy, we can go create agreements around something. And that was kind of like my only thing. I won't get mad at you. You don't get mad at me, but it doesn't mean we don't hide our feelings or emotions around something. We courageously communicate frequently and as much as possible if something is disturbing us. Yeah, I love that and I love to like a piece of advice. I give the single people a lot is is have what you just said. Have those serious conversations sooner. Yes. And the relationship for so many reasons. One is you just you vet the other person earlier rather than later. It's there's fewer emotions involved. You get less hurt, there's less fighting, but also having those conversations builds intimacy and trust. So you build the intimacy and trust at at the get go rather than having to like, you know, chit chat, talk about the weather, you know, whatever for three months. And then like hope that intimacy is spontaneous. You just find out and like sure. You're going to scare some people off and you know, you're going to find some people who aren't right for you. But it's better to find it out then, you know, three, six months down the line. Exactly. Two, three years later. Yeah. And have more pain later. So have more pain now by the uncomfortable conversations and have a lot less pain later. Yeah. One more thing I want to talk to you about. Yes. I saw you. When did you tell me this? I think it was like end of last year. It's probably like August. So okay, like, okay, like six, seven months ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were like, I have a new goal. Yeah. And I was like, oh, cool. Like very casually. I'm like, oh, cool, Lewis. Like, what's your goal? I did you're like, I'm going to play in the Olympics. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you explain to me what you meant. And now I, now I feel like your biggest fan. So you're invested. You're like, I don't know how's the Olympic vlog. I'm so. You'll be the one person that watches this. I'm so emotionally invested in this. I'm going to be there in the front row. You've got to be there. If I make the Olympics, you've got to come. I will fucking be there. Tell me. So tell everybody. So this isn't necessarily a new goal. This is probably a goal I've had or a dream since that was to survive goal. Yeah, since I was five. Yeah. You know, since the first time I can remember watching sports on TV with my dad, it was like a high-state football in the Olympics. It was like something that he loved watching. And so I was wanted to play football. And I always wanted to be in the Olympics just by like being inspired by the stories of these athletes who've given their lives for a dream. And I've always loved that. And so for me, when I was done playing arena football, I got to live this dream for like six, seven months. Again, I didn't make the NFL, which was my ultimate dream, but I got to get paid to catch a football, which for me, it was kind of like I was poor, but fulfilled. Right. You know, 250 bucks a week. You're making nothing. But I was like, man, I'm living the dream. You know, it's okay. Give me food stamps all day long. I'm good to go because I was pursuing something that was meaningful to me. And when that kind of injury happened, it broke my wrist, head of surgery, I'm on my sister's couch. It's 2008. I just get my cast off. It's the summer Olympics. So I guess it's end of July. I just get it off a couple months before then. Still my sister's couch. I'm watching the Olympics Beijing 2008. Michael Phelps is like the biggest thing in the world, you know, and at 3 a.m., there's a sport that comes on called Team Handball. And I watched this in a mesmerise. I'm just like what I've never seen this before. And it was mesmerising. And it's a big sport in Europe. No one knows what it is in the US. And I was like, it just activated a dream inside of me. It's 2008. And I was like, I'm going to the Olympics and handball. I don't know how it's going to happen. But I'm going to figure out how to be on the USA team in qualifier for the Olympics. I start googling like crazy like USA Handball teams in Ohio, wherever it might be, how can I find a team to go play for it? There's no team in Ohio. There's club teams throughout the big cities in the USA. And I was just like, okay, there's a club team in New York City where they're the national champions, the New York City Handball team. And I was like, I got to find a way to move to New York City and learn Handball. I'm emailing like the USA Handball organization, but there's no one replying to me. It's kind of unorganized. I'm like, how do I get a tryout? How do I make the team? Nothing's happening. So I'm like, I'm going to New York City to play with the national champs. I need a coach and a model that I can mimic that I can go learn from. But I don't have any money. It takes me two years to make money. More than I finally go to New York City. I show up because no one would reply to me by emailing people in the team. So they have an address of where they practice. I show up to their address. It's in Brooklyn. And I go there and everyone's like, who are you? And I was like, my name is Lewis House, I'm here to make the USA national team and go to Olympics. And there's probably 30 guys in the gym and they all start laughing at me. No joke. I'm the only American in the gym. It's all like Eastern European guys who played professionally back in the day, Germany, France, Poland, all these places that have moved in New York to live and they just play for fun. And they were like, this is our last practice of the season. If you're serious come back in three months, if you want to play, I come back in three months later. Same thing. I play with the team for the next nine months. I make the USA national team in my mind. I'm like, this is incredible. I start playing with USA across my chest. And I'm playing in Buenos Aires against Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, all these international teams. And I get a taste of international competition of representing the USA. Some of the greatest moments are just wearing the jersey. It's incredible. And I was just like, I need to go to the Olympics. But in order to go to the Olympics in USA team Handball, you would have to win the Pan-American Games because they take one country from North and South America, and you have to win that tournament to go. But we were never good enough to win this tournament. So my thought was, how can the USA get the bid for the Olympics? They can get it in 2016, 2020, I have a chance. They don't get the bid. So my dreams kind of like fall off because I'm like, it doesn't matter how good I get as a player, the team has to win. And that means the team has to be great. Brazil and Argentina and Chile are just better because they play since they're like seven. They play with us play when we're like 25 and we find out about the sport. So we might be better athletes, but they're better players. And so it was just like, we can never beat them, never be competitive enough. So my dreams kind of died for a while because I was like, man, I'm never going to be able to do this. And this is the only sport I could potentially do this in because there's less competition in America. That's why. And then the bid for 2028 comes out. I think it was like 10 years ago when this happened or maybe it's eight years ago when this happened. And at that point, I was like, man, this is 10 years away. I'm going to be 45 when this happens. And the dream just kind of started to like dwindle and I was just like, it's so far away. And I can't train year round while I have this business in the show. And like, I'm in LA. I'd have to move to Europe. Is it worth it? And at the point, it wasn't. But I kept playing, I kept staying in shape. I kept trying to play with the USA team just for fun to see. I was like, maybe there's a chance, but I'm not going to officially retire. And then the Olympics come around in August last year. And I saw you right after then and I was like I need to go to Paris and I need to watch some games and see if it's still alive in me. And I get there and mad that like dream just re-activate inside of me watching him all the Olympics. I was like I worked there because I wanted to see like do I even care anymore right but it was like man it is there. I took a plane while I was in Paris to a team to go see a coach and a team in Spain a professional team that I knew because he said come out here and do a practice in the trial. So I go out there and I do a practice and I'm like I think I'm not where I was 10 years ago but I'm not horrible. Yeah. And I was like with the right training if I stay healthy who knows what's possible. And for the last I guess seven months I've been rehabbing my body, I've been training, I've been doing all these different things just for the opportunity to go play for a month with a team in Spain to see how that feels for one month. Now we're still three and a half years away. Yeah. So much could happen the next three and a half years. But I was telling you before we started this conversation I just feel like I will always regret if I don't pursue this as far as it can go. And if there's a dream that I've had for this long I can't just let it die. Unless I really don't care about it anymore and I say I don't have any interest then okay let it die. But if there's like a fire inside you I feel like you have to pursue it. And there's going to be some beautiful lessons along the way. So we'll see. I mean it's like a marathon and I'm just like one step one day one month at a time right now. How's it gone so far? I mean you're what four or five months into the journey? Yeah. Before five maybe six months into the journey of just like rehabbing I lost like 25 pounds. But there's definitely been some like injuries and setbacks and pains and I'm like oh I can't play the way I used to. So I have to use vision my mindset recovery a different way. I can't just be reckless. Yeah. You know so it's it's learning how to play the game differently at this season of life. Okay. But so far so good I've played twice I played in two games at the end of last year. And there was a couple 27 year old professionals that I was playing with. They were like they're pretty good. And it was the first time in five years I played. So I was like okay I can still hang with like 25 year olds. Yeah. So if I can get better every day for the next three and a half years who knows what's possible. Got a call up Tom Brady. Get that get some of that. Give me the team. The program. They give everything. The secret. The secret secret. I think it's like it's learning to be grateful just for the opportunity every day to pursue it. Yeah. It's something I'm also excited about because it seems so far away three and a half years seems like forever right now for me. But I just am trying to bring it back to day by day. Like I'm just grateful for the opportunity to pursue this. Yeah. And that gives me a lot of joy. I love ambitious goals. And I love ambitious goals that are so ambitious. They seem like slightly unhinged. Crazy man. Yes. It's amazing. It just it gets and as soon as you started. Because I remember you were like I'm going to play in the Olympics and I was like what Lewis? What the fuck dude? Like did you start explaining it to me? And I was like bro I'm fucking. Maybe there's a chance. Yeah. Yeah. But just saying that yeah I'm going to be an Olympian. It seems like a crazy thing to if for some podcaster. Absolutely. You're like what? Okay. 42. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But once you understand the context of it, it's like if I can stay healthy and strong. I believe I have a very good chance in three and a half years. Well, I'm rooting for you. The audience is rooting for you. We'll keep tabs on you. Yes. Check out the book everybody. Lewis House. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Matt. Appreciate you. Glad we got you on. Thanks for having me, man. Awesome. The subtle art of Mocking the Fuck Podcast is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.