Lessons Learned - Advice to Those Starting Seminary, with guest Nicholas D'Agosto

[Music] Welcome to many Windows conversations on ministry. I'm your podcast host, Jules Taylor, coming to you from Medville Lombard Theological School in Chicago. My guest today is Nicholas Diagosto, graduating Master of Divinity student. Nick and I talk about his time at Medville and he reflects on advice he might give a student who's just starting out. Nick, in a few days you're going to be graduating, graduating with your Master's in Divinity degree and everybody's paths a little bit different. Every once-pass a little difference. Some get the degree in like three years, some get it in four, seven, five, all kinds of directions. As we begin kind of our conversation, tell us a little bit about your path that you've had here at Medville. Yeah, thanks, Rev Jules. When I started, I came out of a period. I've been a professional television and film actor for the last 25 years. I went to my undergrad degree, was in basically focused on theater. I got a history degree as well, but I was really just fully focused on that. I'd had a fortunate career and I mean in a very truncated way, things stopped going the way I anticipated them going and I gave me some time to reflect. It all happened right around when I turned 40, which was right when COVID happened. There were some other things in my personal life which my wife has opened to be talking about, but those are really more for sermons or another segment on your show. But ultimately what happened was I realized that I'd always had this deep religious questioning and this deep seeking and it was time to finally formally answer some questions. I didn't have much more beyond that that I was really clear about. When I started, it was a fully part-time schedule. I really anticipated that I was going to graduate in six years. I was truly doing it like the slowest you could do it. And then what happened was right after CPE, I realized that I loved ministry and I loved what I was doing and I didn't want to wait anymore. I wanted to finish the degree. And I wanted to. So at that point, I started to do the math with Elena. I was like, okay, I take you. Who understands class hour math and how that's going to translate into when do you actually get to graduate? Right. And what classes are coming up? Where do I have to hit the core ones? And so I started doing that. I started doing two in the summer and then I took ultimately had to take a J term in my last sequence and I ended up completing the degree in four and a half years basically. Okay. So you started, so just to recap, then you started with the intention of really going part-time, a couple of classes here. And I remember that as you started maybe two classes at a time, sometimes one, sometimes even not. I think you even took a gap maybe for a semester or maybe. I didn't take a gap, but I was truly doing two a semester in one in the summer. Okay. I was like five a year, which was awesome and luxurious, but on some levels from a study perspective, but it was very slow. Well, and as you're trying to balance the rest of your life along this too, which is always a complicated piece. It's always complicated. So you started there and then like you said after CPE, things, the engine turned a little quicker that the pace just with your own experience and your own formation wanted to dive a little deeper into just hitting school harder. Yeah. And just to kind of color in a little bit more about what you said about the life circumstances, when I started, my son was four or maybe five. And there was some nerves around that. My wife began to work full-time because I wasn't working as an actor. Sure. And so there's a lot of things that go into that, right? But when by the time I'd gone through CPE, I'd begun to understand and lived with this new pattern of my life where acting didn't feel like it was an all-encompassing identity anymore. And so I found that gradually I had room to begin to awaken to ministry as the, as really kind of stabilizing and core identity and acting as, as an enormous part of myself, but almost a subsidiary part now. And so that's, so when you came to me to be like, let's reflect and what would you do differently? For me, I wouldn't do anything differently. I really feel like I gave everything I could to my degree and paid attention and I learned the lessons I needed to learn. It doesn't mean I didn't make mistakes. It doesn't mean I didn't get taught lessons at different times. But I'm happy to share those lessons. But I wouldn't do that differently. You know what I mean? Because I needed to learn all those lessons. That's great. There's a lot of directions we could talk about. There's a lot of different touch points. We could talk acting piece. My original time in my undergrad was also at Tisch School of the Arts at NYU at Circle in the Square doing studio for three years. Right? Like I've got my union cards I keep paying. We could do, do keep paying. I do. I can't give, that was too hard. I can't give that up. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. So you know, maybe another time we'll do that. Because one of the things for sure and that, that, that I think is also always just an interesting piece with seminarians. I try to talk about like the things that you bring in you don't get rid of with that identity shift when that's happening. It doesn't mean that you jettison all that you were. It's how is this now being adapted as part of this new formation into this new identity? How are you going to use the tools that you have and in service of this new service that you have? So that's another that's another layer here. But this introspective retrospective is, you know, kind of the bigger topic, which doesn't have to be necessarily what would you do different? But knowing what you know now, what might you tell your early yourself or new students coming in just to have a little bit of awareness? Like what do you wish you had known? Even if you're going to do it the same, yeah, little bits of wisdom that might be helpful. I mean, one thing one you just kind of brought up is like the thing that you plan to do because I kind of just heard it in that initial story. The thing that you plan may not be the way plays out, be ready for surprises. That seems like one thing for sure, just from the little bit you've already talked about. Well, and I can, I think every generation of cohorts has seen at least one or two of their seminarian colleagues shift their focus. Even if it's just between chaplaincy and parish ministry, those are the kind of the two of the main tracks. You know, there's obviously non-profit. There's so many other ways to use the degree. Even if you don't enter into formal, professional ministry, you could, you know, you can take the degree and go back into business and just be a better business person in that way. Well, let me say cohort though, just so people understand what a cohort is. The way we use this at Medville, Lombard is kind of there's kind of a other kinds of schools and other types of programs might, this might be the class. You might think of it more of a class like we're the class of 2026, the class of, but because of how Medville works, we kind of more talk cohorts. This is the group that you come in with. You begin a number of classes together that everybody takes together and then as the, but the cohorts can shift. So it winds up being kind of what, what are some of the core courses, the signature courses you take together wind up being what we would call cohorts and those, those again, there's sometimes more than one, but I just want to get that vocabulary in there a little bit. No, I appreciate that and totally understand why because this is for new students. Or at least predominantly centered onto students. Yeah. I mean, that brings up another thought. So before I forget, I was talking about, I wanted to say something now that you just said about cohorts, but we were talking about how things can shift. And I didn't know, truly, I did not know if I would even want to work in a formal ministry position. I just knew I was called to this school because I had discovered Unitarian Universalism within the last five years prior to signing up and I knew that I wanted to study here. That's really all I knew it first. And I have watched some of my friends have. extraordinary experiences in the parish and awaken to wanting to be a parish minister. And then the opposite, where they did not have a good experience. And they realized that actually the relationship they want to have in ministry is a much more intimate one in chaplaincy. And so just to say, I think everyone I've spoken to has witnessed people doing that very thing. So please come in with whatever idea you want. And I hope it works out and is clear and clean for you the whole way through. But of course if it changes then embrace that too. The other thing I want to say about cohorts is another thought which is I basically have two cohorts. When I came in because I'm a four and a half year person, I or four and a half year student, some of the people I came in with graduated long before I graduated or people that I came in with in their second year when it was my first year graduated halfway through my degree. And we became very close in some of my early classes. So it's another way to say that don't lose track of the people you feel like you really connect with in your degree because even if it's just that first year, it might turn out that that person you had a deep connection with graduates after your first year. But I mean seminary goes by so fast and your profession is so long. Even for those people that this is my second profession, there's some people it's their third profession coming in and they say things like you know I only got 15 to 20 years of ministry to get well 15 to 20 years is a lot longer than seminary. You know you're going to have that friend with you for a very, very long time and basically it's just one of those things like keep your antennas up and keep your people close that you feel like you connect with and don't be afraid to reach out to them even if they go on quicker than you know you just it's a very tight knit world of unitarian universalism and and you're going to see them again. Yeah, that's one of the things I appreciated about unitarian universalism from a from a professional ministry perspective is the collegial connection that is is really built into our system is how how collegial and how networked we are, how connected we are the opportunities for that and really not just and that's not an accident. Part of that is built on lots of experiences and research about about that being a key component component to healthy ministry regardless of the context is being connected. I love how Reverend Tandy Rogers who whose benefactility member and at different times and who teaches the spiritual direction program at light show is talks about like find your squad right find your squad and and your squad could be like from different class years right but can't stay connected really key point I like that one. And we're already practicing it because we're following in the footsteps of others who've done it and you know one of my cohorts already has a monthly we're doing a monthly zoom where we get together for an hour. One of them has gotten into regional UUA stuff and and they're busy you know but but you find that time to sit and you check in with each other and informal check ins you know you as people that will come in you'll realize that part of what Rev Jules is talking about here is being taught a formal way of bringing your whole self as best you can and as efficiently as you can in a way into a meeting where you have a moment to check in and be real with each other and you you get to experience each other as present and real individuals and then you do your work but there's always like don't don't barrel past the ministry part of the of the thing on the way to the work. Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned already something that was clearly pivotal and it's a it's a thing that a lot of folks aren't so familiar with necessarily when they're when they're beginning school and that was when I talk the contextual ministry pieces of it specifically CPE clinical pastoral education and even then internship that comes after that. So so CPE was clearly a really big turning point for you formationally. So I'd be interested to hear a little bit about that. Oh my gosh Rev Jules well I think you've read my evaluations so you know if you remember you know what they're long and I wrote a lot about those experiences that was where I a lot of things happened. One was well can you wait before you go into it where can you talk about your context because oh yeah CPE context are different and that kind of shapes the conversation to. Right and actually you making me pause there is a good thing too because I one thing I did want to say is I'm in Los Angeles so I have access to a lot of institutions that a lot of people don't even in medium size cities but of course we are all some people are in much more rural or suburban areas. I'm not the only one that came to school with different responsibilities be it parenthood or taking care of your taking care of one's parents or other familial members or multiple jobs like we have a lot of responsibilities and that hinders our ability for geographically a relocation. And for being able to access things that are at a distance like a physical distance. So one thing that's really important is school goes fast because you get very busy very quickly and I would just recommend to anyone that feels like they are geographically bound or that they have added responsibilities that are going to hinder their ability to move freely physically to different locations that are far away. So just be talking to people like you RevJules or talking to Elena I mean particularly RevJules because this is your one of your major umbrellas within the school. It's CP but where it's contextual ministry as a whole right is your purview. So the point is is that just being that conversation early so that you can be trying to get ahead of where you want to end up and navigating your challenges because I was able to do it all kind of on in a regular time pattern and I was able to get into the premier hospital system in Los Angeles which I really wanted which is Cedar Sinai and Cedar Sinai is I think the second largest hospital system in the United States and it has an extraordinary it's arguably the top spiritual care department. It is a it is a traditionally Jewish institution. That is a merger of multiple Jewish institutions and they are they have an incredibly broad interfaith spiritual care department. About 30 to 40% of their of their patients are identified as Jewish but so there are a number of Jewish rabbis of multiple different denominations right. Denominations within Judaism right exactly and so that alone is a really cool interfaith experience. Beyond that there are multiple denominations of Christians there's there was a Muslim Imam there. There was one of my cohort members was a young Buddhist monk. I mean it was an incredibly cool diverse interfaith experience and it was also really broad because we would work in the emergency care department and their emergency care department is massive. But you know there are just incredibly dire situations happening because there are a number one trauma unit or trauma one unit level one. So all to say everything was available to me there and I'm really grateful for it. In addition to that the people that ran the spiritual care department I just think were exceptional and I'm not the only one that's had exceptional experiences with their CPA experience. So I don't want to talk like in an exclusive way. I'm just extremely grateful for mine and it taught me it really helped me articulate and connect the value of pluralism our Unitarian Universalist value of pluralism to interfaith experience really understanding what it means to be a pluralist which is not a relativist it means to truly allow and embrace other people's cosmological and medical physical viewpoints and to learn how to speak with respect about your own and the differences and just you know there was just so much in that but in addition to that personally the work of CPE is a lot of a continuation of internal work where you're where I am continually reflecting on what my presence with other patients and their suffering is bringing out in me and in my own past. And so as I began to feel incredibly empowered in that experience and I began to really kind of articulate or I really began to just kind of experience in real time what some of my assets were as a minister because we all have different skills and I began to see what I began to realize what some of my skills were, and they were different than being an actor. They weren't all about being an actor. I think at the first, I was like, "Well, you know, I'll be good at speaking in front of people." - Sure. - Whatever that means. "Can I write a sermon?" I don't know, I'll figure that out. But then there's a lot of other stuff about, that is my story about what I discovered, and it just realized that stuff didn't fit only inside acting anymore. And it was truly something where ministry and acting enhance each other, but they're more of a Venn diagram in myself now than they are, I'm both, like on top of each other. And so when I had those awakenings, I realized, "Oh, well, I'm a minister, and I guess I'm maybe an actor still, I don't know, I'll figure that out later." But I knew I needed to finish the ministry degree. - Well, and that's the piece really, clinical pastoral education. CPE is the first opportunity that you get, at least the way Medville's program is, you're doing some academic stuff, you're doing classroom, you're learning beginning pieces, and it is CPE where you get to begin to try on essentially the role and actually serve in a role as a minister in these contexts. You're being supervised, so you've got some training wheels, you got some left and right edges on because you've got a supervisor, this is very specifically supervisor ministry, not just you're out on your own doing it, but it really is the first place you get to be recognized and then have to recognize yourself in that. So that identity piece, it makes sense that that happened for you then, it's kind of designed that way, right? And it was really profound, clearly, I mean, the way you're articulating it, I love hearing that, 'cause it's what I witnessed. Like I witnessed that happening with folks, and so it's great to listen to the inside of that as I witnessed that happening and the shift then, to be a little more prepared, a little more experienced to then move into internship then as well, where the expectations just grow to live into that ministerial identity as well. - Yeah, and not to delay that move, but just to say like, when we say it's the first place to get to kind of dive into real ministry, part of what we're saying is, if you're called to ministry, there's some part of you that wants to be present in the suffering of others. And it is really the first time where, in a formal way, as I have discovered it, I imagine most people that come to school are this way. You've already probably been doing ministry in your own way for most of your life. You're the kind of person that listen to a lot of friends and they're suffering, and you were there, or a lot of people would reach out to you. You're just that kind of person most likely. And, but to do it in a formal setting, and I have so many experiences of just, I cherish, where I was able to be present and ask a question in the moment that helped someone have an awakening or have some sense of moving towards peace with whatever that was, that those moments are incredibly powerful. And so when I talk about, it's what it is, is like, then you start putting the theological language around it, right? It's like this interpersonal, this is interpersonal transcendence, and this is creative exchange, and these types of things that we teach each other, that we all learn in school. And when you get to start aligning all those things, right? The concepts from the classes, align with the pastoral ministry stuff that Reverend Jewel is teaching, and the conceptual construct of theology that Hogue is teaching, and it all starts to align in the moment where you're really present with someone, and the experiences can be really profound. It's beautiful. - Yeah, and not just for the other folks, right? It's for us too, we are transformed and changed by them as well. And that's a piece that's so important, and I think it's also different why an M-Div is different than just getting a master's in religion, in some way, because this preparation, it's a professional degree, and it's preparing this to be able to function within a professional capacity, but it requires a change. It requires a transformation of us. It's not just about knowledge. That identity shift happens, and so to be open to be changed ourselves, right? That's important, otherwise, I mean, to kind of go with the other piece, otherwise this is just a costume that you wear, and this isn't a role, this really is. We may sometimes start with feeling like, "Oh, I'm gonna try this on and see how it feels." Right, I always say that, you know, if you've never, in CPE is often a great place to wear a collar for the first time if you've ever done that, 'cause that right there, that's a physical embodiment of a representation of a faith leader that you've maybe never done before, and you put that on and like, what's this gonna be like, and then people recognize you differently and treat you a little bit differently, and that's kind of an outside in, but ultimately, that's just the beginning of an embodied way to experience this role, and to change into it instead of just, "Oh, this is a job that I'll put on." When I wear my uniform or when I wear, I used to be a painter, right? So when I put my painter's whites on, that was something that was useful in my job, but I didn't have to change to wear my painter's whites. That was just something that is good for the job. It's a different piece with this. And CPE, again, CPE is that experience where you kind of don't have a choice. You are thrown into the deep end with this. - Yes, and I will, one thing that you just said, what you were just speaking about reminded me of a way I used to love to articulate what I was doing back when the schooling was early. So this is maybe a little bit actor inside baseball, but you'll get this, is that I studied Meisner. And so one of the core phrases of Meisner is being truthful under imaginary circumstances. So a lot of people will be like, "You're a good liar if you're an actor." It's like, no, ideally you're just being truthful under an imaginary circumstance. But I used to say, I know what it's like to be truthful under imaginary circumstance. I wonder what it would be like to be truthful under real circumstances. - And in different circumstances than you're used to. Different circumstances that you typically are in, that maybe aren't your circumstances, you're in someone else's circumstances now. - Well, very specifically, like, if I do a scene where someone's dying, that's different than getting up after the scene and going to have a cup of coffee at the crafty. In this one at CPE, the person's really dying. - That's right. - And you're really there as you. - That's right. I'm not with that. - That's right. This is the, these are some of the core differences. It doesn't, they should look the same in the scene. - Sure. - Pretty much. I should just be as good of a listener and as present as an actor, as I should be in my real self. But the difference is, I'm gonna carry all of that with me because that was real. Whereas the imaginary thing is you'd go home and no one really died in front of you that day. - That's right. - And that's where that level of intensity of life, that level of distillation of true, true unvarnished connection, those things are what I think I'm seeking and I think what everybody else is seeking. - Yeah. - Wow. - Well, it makes sense then to why that experience was such a catalyst for you to then shift how you were engaging the rest of your program, kind of timing. Let's jump in a little bit to internship, which usually, which follows CPE in that way. You got an internship, talk a little bit about just that experience, 'cause I know that was even a roller coaster in a different way. - One of the things that I think might be helpful for new seminarians as a frame through which to envision their internship experiences to see it as a collective. Because I had my own extraordinary experience with internship, but it was just one of many. I mean, I had a colleague, I had two colleagues that started their internship in one congregation and then ended their internship in a second congregation. I mean, that alone is a really extreme shift and you're not gonna predict that before you go into internship. - In my experience. - For those cases, that was not the intention. The intention was to stay at the same one for both years. So that was an unintended experience that happened, yeah. - And for two totally different unexpected reasons. - Right. - And mine, for instance, was right towards the end of CPE, I started internship right after that. So I had to have my internship lined up at the beginning of the summer and then I went into a summer intensive CPE experience and then I was to start internship. But about a month before I finished my CPE experience and was about to start my internship experience, my supervising minister, or who was supposed to become my supervising minister, a wonderful person, I think he's an amazing minister. but for a sequence of life events in his own experience, he had to resign. And so, and even though I'm in a big city, it's actually a unique experience because we don't have a lot of big churches in LA. We have a lot of small churches. Only one you would consider like medium-sized. And then that was my home congregation. So you can't be an intern at your home congregation. You have to be large enough to be a teaching congregation. So I didn't have a lot of options. And he was very cool and he got me hooked up to actually a church I asked. I had a hope to be at. But they, for their own reasons, said no to me. This is all to say that I ended up in an amazing space. But if you take anything from this story, dear listener, just take that the unexpected happens. And no one's intending it. It's all good people. I mean, some people have bad experiences. I didn't have a bad experience with any of the players in this story. It was just a sequence of unfortunate events that turned out to be an amazing thing for me. But it could not have been amazing. I could have been one of those people that this person did, the new minister did this other minister of favor, but they were like, look, I'm only going to do it for a year, find something else, because you just never know. And in the end, what you're hoping for is an experience that teaches you something. And then as you share it in your cohorts, because so much of what our signature courses are doing is getting us to share all these experiences together. Right. Then in the collective, we all learn a little bit about the wider UU experience. And that's, yeah, go ahead, please. Well, and there you go with another another. So you started your first year. You had a cohort that you started with. But by the time you were doing the signature courses, the vocational studies and leadership group. Now you're in a different cohort with different folks and having their experiences all over the country. And so that idea too, again, you're, so while you're it's not just about being in class together, that cohort experience is you are talking about sharing, exchanging, it's not just sitting in a class, listening to lectures. You all are working things together, working things together during class time, not during class time, really developing those relationships. And like you said, learning from each other that way. Yeah, I mean, I would say particularly during the last year, the form, I mean, and the instructors designed it this way. But I mean, the formation groups. So you will have, you will go to class once a week. And in some of these courses that we're discussing right now, you will only be with your professor half the time. Then the other half the time, you'll just be in formation groups with like topics to discuss and maybe a small assignment to complete together. But really it's, it should be set aside is about two hours for the three or four or five of you, whatever your cohort size is in that room to really break down what you're going through. So a lot of what you're doing is sharing the nitty gritty and reaching out to each other for support and guidance and just venting about whatever it is that you might be learning. And that's not really in, in like class discussion with the professor. That's like the professor empowers you as many professors do to go be in a group and learn how to take care of yourselves. Right. Which gets to this other piece or, you know, being this hybrid program now, we're not a residential program where everybody's in Chicago, living in Chicago together. I mean, I don't know how you navigate internship. If there's only so many churches in one place, right? With a bunch like so it's in that way the hybrid experience gives people a lot of different opportunities wherever you are get that internship and that's a positive thing. There's more options then for internship for CPE, right? Because we got people all over the country. The complicity. I would have been able to take the degree starting erupt, but I wouldn't have been able to do this without the hybrid thing. I would have had to choose a degree program here in Los Angeles that actually wouldn't have lined up with my, with my religious and value pursuit. I could have, I could have still done it, but would I have? I don't know. Right. That's another piece too. Yeah. Yeah. The choice to be at Medville is a particular one. And the hybrid does open, has opened this up completely for folks, which is great. And distance is tough. Distance can be isolating, right? It may not just be distance. Sometimes it can be really isolating. So the idea you've talked about it already, right? The value about asking for help from students, from other mentors and stuff. So that clearly, you know, you've spoken a little bit about it, but. Yeah. I mean, and I would, one thing that really jumps up for me are. You know, my heart goes out to those of you and those of my cohort members and colleagues who. Do predominantly to physical disability, but also economic circumstances. Aren't able to travel to Chicago, even for the intensive weeks. So the way our hybrid is set up is we're all given an opportunity. For a week at the beginning of the fall and spring semesters to be together in person. And you don't have to. You're not punished. There's no grading issues or anything like that. But it is encouraged if you can, because. Because it's, it is an amazing experience to actually physically get to be with the people and share space for a little bit of time. Over the course of my nine semesters, or the not, you know, four and a half years, the nine opportunities I had to do it, I think I went four times. So I went once a year. I tried to go once a year. Yeah. And I was lucky to get to do that. And some of my friends, I'm not sure. I mean, some people I think maybe didn't even make it once, you know, because of their circumstance. And so that's an opportunity to make sure that we spend extra time, you know, trying to take care of those colleagues that might feel more isolated and. For different circumstances. But I think that. I don't know. Like again, this goes into that thing where. It's worth it's good to say what doesn't what's challenging about something, but also it's teaching us a lesson, right? Like we're just we're all supercharged into an economy of living together where we're almost never in the same physical space that the people were working with anymore. You know, I mean, in our congregations, we will be, but how many how much of life is about calling people on the phone or FaceTime, or zooming now? And yeah, and I learned a lot about how to do this in thoughtful ways through the hybrid program because I was forced. I was forced to navigate these mediums. And so I'm grateful. I'm grateful for that. It is more difficult. It is more complicated to teach in these ways. It's more complicated. I think for a lot of folks to learn in these ways. And that being said, because of because we're doing it this way, the truth is that ministry is multi platform in different lights in lots of different ways now as well. And not just in a congregation, but there's just so many different ways of any kind of ministry. We're doing be it in, you know, be it in more of a chaplaincy realm or congregational or maybe in a in a justice format community organizing all of those ministries. You have to engage all kinds of different platforms often at a distance, not necessarily the same place. So the fact that you all are learning it in this means that you're already getting tools in the more difficult venue. You're learning it in the more difficult environment. And so you can actually function in the more difficult environment because you've been practicing it there more, which means when you're in the in person, often it is so much easier. Yeah, but that's also to get us back on the internship thing, right? That's what internships about. It's about making sure that you're physically present in a location. Yeah. And I mean, some people actually I think they did their internship because of different things they did it at a distance. And again, that that could be any number of issues. But most of us have to physically be present in the congregational circumstance. And that's where you're getting the boots on the ground thing, right? Like that's where you're getting the everyday rub and elbows with whatever level of administration, whatever size of congregation. You know, and so then you get all that interpersonal work sensing the conflict of a dynamic of a congregational dynamic feeling trauma. I mean, you know, there were the fires in Los Angeles. I was an enormous part of my internship within the first year. I mean, my first year of internship. I was I came in in the fall and I was trying to I rallied together like the congregation to write 500 letters to get out the vote. You know, and that vote did not go the way we wanted. And in January, all of all, Tadina was on fire. And my congregation, 20 of our members, 20 of our member families, whether they were single or in a family residence, had damage to their place of residence and six of them their entire homes burned down. And so it instantly became about -Trama Ministry on the fly. -That's right. -I'm grateful that I had an amazing supervisor who led with generosity and a lot of forethought, but I got supercharged into, okay, well, this is the story now, really for the rest of the internship in many ways. -Without a doubt, that'll be there for quite a long time, right? -With that congregation and that group of people, and that's the thing about internship. It's also the thing about the two-year internship that is the predominant way that for the most part, our program works too, is having. You get two seasons with the same group, and with that offers a lot of different opportunities, which is the reality of ministry, is that we wind up with many seasons with people most of the time. And if not the people organizations, at least, if you're working at a hospital, you'll have seasons with the folks that work there, maybe not so many with the folks that are coming in in the hospital beds, but how the rhythms of the organization work, and then when something interrupts it, like tragedy, like all the unexpected stuff, which is just reality. This is just what happens. In one way or another, things happen. It just happens. So, to have the experience, and with supervisors, also, you've also got classes that are part of that as well, you've got staff. So that's the other thing, at least the way Medville's works, that I. Having not gone to Medville with this experience, having done my internship after graduation, I do appreciate now this piece that has a lot of support for both the student, the intern, but also the location, the supervisor, the whole thing. You all are not in this by yourself. You've also got the whole Medville here as things happen because real stuff is going to happen there, and it can be incredibly overwhelming. Yeah, and I would just. Another opportunity to flag, like, please don't hesitate to reach out. I know that to people, to staff at Medville, or whoever you need to talk to, whether it's at the UUA, or. As you get into your internship, then you're going to be in more conversation with. Like the MCO and Transition's Office and stuff, as you begin to start to do the type of work where you're. Because you're simultaneously also prepping to graduate and eventually get a job and stuff. I know that as someone with my identity spheres, I'm a white, cishead male, as a lot. I come from a middle class to upper middle class family background, and we talk a lot about through our education. People like me are kind of just not inhibited at any time in life from speaking up. I'm just like somebody that's always just kind of been like, "It's okay if I ask a question." And I know that some people don't feel that way. It's not the life that they experienced. They don't feel like it is a natural inclination for them to be. And it's not only identity aligned, but identity has something to do with these things. And the point I'm trying to say is, please try to push against that in you. If you're willing to take the step into this degree, please try to challenge yourself to ask the questions you need to ask when you want to ask them. Reach out when you need help, because you'll just be served, you know, as all I can say. People will respond. And I know that that's not easy for everyone. But when I had questions, I reached out and people were helpful. And even if that person or the institution isn't the place to have that support or to even be able to answer it, we probably can get to the next place where it would be. You're talking a little bit now as you're moving into the realm of graduating and doing the next phase of this journey. Some of the answers don't lie with me. They lie with the next ones. But we know who the next person to call is. It's not us, but here's the person called them. So recognizing that any institution doesn't have everything. That it may be the next move to get some kind of support or some kind of thing that might be able to help. And that's going to. And it's good practice as well. Again, even with what you to jump back a little bit, the distance piece can be complicated. And because we're getting more used to, I think, going outside our geographical bounds, that actually means that we can be more comfortable with being connected to all kinds of folks even further away. So if that help isn't in your geographical region, the nice thing is there is somewhere. And because we're more, you know, we can go on to zoom, we can go on to FaceTime and actually have really deep encounters with folks. Okay, this maybe a mentor isn't somebody that's going to be in Los Angeles, but you might have a mentor that would really work well from New York or from North Carolina and be able to interact in a deep way. So practicing that again, the practice that you're getting at school is going to be the tools that you're going to need to use later as well. Yeah. And I, man, I just feel like we can talk for hours because I really am partly because I'm all still in my head, right? I mean, I haven't even walked yet. So I mean, I still feel like I've got all the evaluations and everything I've cared about and there it's all in my brain still. But I recognize that I don't speak for every one of my colleagues when I talk about everything I'm talking about, right? Like I think that goes without saying, but I might as well say. That's good to say. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, people are going to have different opinions than me about different things. And I'm going to talk right now about like administrative classes. And everyone, I think that I was with, you know, appreciated all of these classes. Some of us for different reasons or some of us gravitated to it more. Some of us are more business minded than others. We just, that's a part of our skill set. But I really think that what Medville is doing with talking about all the work we're doing on educating in systems theories, administrative stuff, nonprofit, nonprofit infrastructure and administration, finances. It's really important to remember that part of this degree is a little bit of a kind of non-profit business degree. There is a little bit of like a needing to remember that you're also a leader of resources. And not just spiritual resources, actual material, the, the, the, the, the stewarding, the building, the land, whether you're renting it or whether your congregation is inherited it. The people, the volunteer resources, the time, the energy, the focus and the money. And, and you know, actually this is going to, I'm threading this together with something I wanted to bring up to you because you were the person that taught me this because I, you were one of the first two classes I took at Medville. And you had very specific rules about don't go over 90 seconds on this particular thing. Or if something is, and you're not the only one, but you were the first one. And you know, if this assignment is, you know, 500 words, don't, not 505. And I go into that to say, and I kind of want you to talk a little bit about this is, I got like docked a little bit. You're like, well, Nick, this was a nice offer, but you, it was 505 words, please, please keep it under, you know, 500. So like, you know, if it was, if it was an A work, it was an A minus. And I remember thinking like, oh, it was like just a wake up call about, about masters degrees. And it was, it was a wake up call about rules and following directions. And as I continue to see that, I mean, this is, you know, many professors, if not all professors, really. You have word count, you know, they have word count boxes that you have to get in. If for no other reason, then they don't want to read more than this because they're very busy. And they don't think you need to take more time than 500 words to get your point across. And the reason I go into that and I'm marrying it to resources is, these are some of the subtle, that's right, the not overt ways that we learn respect for time resource, for understanding how to respect the time of others and the respect our own time and say, how do we, how do we operate with efficiency and boundaries? It's about boundaries. So I just thought, I thought I wanted to tee you up here, you know, and, and like, you know that like I, I was like, oh, you know, that was an early one where I was like, oh, I, I'm not used to being, you know, kind of getting these types of, of crit like feedback where I'm like not following the rules, but sorry, I've just asked you. And then I wanted to say, we as ministers, we can, we are most likely, not all of us are extroverts, but many of us are probably prone to talk a lot. And we're probably prone to sit a little longer with someone in an emotional situation, but for ourselves and for them, we're going to be a lot more important. We need to have boundaries. We need to call things over when they're over. If the meeting is for 45 minutes, the meeting should be 45 minutes. That allows us all to move on with our lives. We're not burning out in the process. Okay. Now I'm pushing it back to you. Well, you just hit some of the reasons that myself and others do exactly that. Is this actually is training for when you are the one that's getting the newsletter article that is 15 pages long and you have like 250 words space in your newsletter and somebody from a committee just handed you that. You're going to get like that's going to come to you too. Yes. It's the beginning that experience of being a little more concise also and rules for rules sake, not so much. It really is. This is some of the, these are some going to be some expectations as a professional. When you are doing your CPE application, if you write 400 pages or whatever it is too much or too little, you might not get that spot. I want you to start practicing it, right? So some of that is those pieces, but I think you really hit around boundaries around the concept of, of be it time, be it space, be it, whatever those resources are for the professor. Also for you, another thing that can happen as well is by giving things like page limits or word limits or time limits if it's a video or a podcast or something that you're working on. Also is helping, you know, a student frame things and perhaps get, you know, get to a point. How are you going to structure this so it's not just everything, but where is the focus for you? So there's all kinds of professional applications to it and it can seem, especially my, yeah, my classes at the very beginning, it's always at the very beginning. It's one of the first couple of classes people take. And so it can be a little jarring, I know. There's lots of folks that are very upset about that initially and I get lots of feedback about that typically. But without that recognition that this actually is in service of a bigger professional trajectory that, a lot of folks like you said, getting ready to graduate, having gone through CPE and internship, I can kind of get why that was. Yeah, I mean, I think that unfortunately, you know, master's degrees are hard. You're not just, I loved it. I loved my degree, man. I loved the experience and I wanted to walk away feeling like I learned a lot of things. And I think I would just say that to just take it as seriously as you can and like, and I don't know. I'm really trying to convey, like I don't hold any resentment. I learned lessons about how to be more efficient. I come out of a professional background though where I am critiqued relentlessly and the whole thing is that we're constantly editing. I mean, how many times has a scene of mine been chopped in half because of time limits on the show? That's just a nature of where I came from. So that type of stuff made a lot of sense to me intuitively. Although I wasn't aware of practicing it yet, I got framed very easily for me. Oh, I get it. You've got to get this thing into a time frame, you know? It's just another example of the way that I enjoyed learning lessons in the master's degree that made me connect to the professional world with a lot of different practical skills. I mean, it's just, it's difficult at the beginning to see or to perceive how all of the things are connecting. And by the end of it, we don't just write 1500 words, sermons on average because you use discovered that's like the sweet spot. We do it because we're gravitating in a time period where people's lives are oppressed with stimuli. And we don't have the spaciousness in our lives. In our tradition, you know, we are holding that it is rare occasions when we speak for 20, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. That's not that it can't be done. There are times to do it. But well, just because it's 1500 words doesn't mean you can't pack a lot of wonderful stuff in there. And you just got to learn how to do it. But the only way you're going to learn how to do it is if somebody tells you you can't put 3000. You can't put 1500 words of content into 3000 words. You got to put 3000 words of content into 1500 words. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Talk about assignments a little bit. I like this is an interesting, this is an interesting idea here. Well, I want to first say that I'm going to speak for my own point of view and it's really important that we all understand that it's my point of view. Not everyone has the space in their life for a number of different reasons to give 100 percent of themselves to each assignment that comes to you. But I would challenge and I would just, I would plead to you really more that you give as much of yourself to every assignment that you can because we learn by predominantly by writing and we form our ideas by taking the challenge to form them to the best of our abilities in the moment. So when we talk about, Rev. Jules and I were talking a little bit ago about evaluations at the end of an internship or well, you know, to some extent we have some leeway on how much thought we give to that evaluation. There's space in there to expand if we really feel like we want to expand. And I took that space as best I could because not because I felt like I needed to prove to Rev Jules or whoever that I learned all these things. But by putting them down in a location, I have put as a testament to myself and my own work, what I learned and what I gave and what it meant to me and the lessons that I'm taking away and the things that I would have done differently or the things I'm super proud of. And there's so many of those things that if I skirt that and just kind of do the minimum, then I'm selling myself short and I feel that way about like every assignment and every book I was assigned. And again, I'm not, I wasn't perfect. I didn't read every single thing every single time because sometimes my kid was sick and my wife was out of town and I just lose her realities. And there's a reality. And other people are in different situations than me and they're not, they didn't have as much space as me. So I'm not trying, please, I hope you understand that everybody's situation is different. And there are moments where we have a choice. Can we do, we kick it into gear for another hour? Yeah. Or do we take that break and let go because we did the minimum? And I would just challenge everyone to like, don't do yourself a disservice. Like, finish the reading, create, like deeper into the thought if you think that something's there because the gift is in what you're giving yourself and all of the material that you'll take with you into your ministry and into your life so that when you go back to it, it's, you know, it's an honoring to yourself and to the money that you're investing in your education and the time and I just, I am so proud of all of the documents that I have saved on my hard drives because there are all these thoughts that I have begun that I can continue to expand upon and go back to over the coming years. That's a really important and interesting point there. That's, I love the way you just put that, right? Number one, this is, this education, like, you're not, no, it's not like a high school diploma that you're required to finish. Like, this is a, this is an entirely voluntary program that you know, so you're getting into, right? And so what you put into it, you're likely to get out of it. But this idea, I just love the way you just mentioned that about, you've started ideas. You're the things that you've written down that, or if you've recorded it, if it's a video, whatever, however that's being, however that's being captured, right? Those are pieces that you then, if you keep it, if you organ, like, however you organize things, right? You can go back to for years and pick up a thread that you're going to be in a different place five years from now. And there may be something that, some book, you're going to be writing a sermon or doing a newsletter or doing something, maybe getting ready for a memorial service. And, oh, there's something in that book, or I remember writing. And if you, if you have document of that, you can go back to it. Now you're in a different place, but it's interesting sometimes to tap into those old, those older thoughts and pull a thread that you hadn't thought about that now it's taking you into a new place and a deeper place that started somewhere. And, you know, but you will think of it unless you reread your notes or you read that paper that you wrote. And I'll, I mean, I'll just say, I hadn't really thought about this at all, but I, I did that to some degree. I have a, and I, when I went to seminary, my notes were not typed. Those are all handwritten. And so that's a harder one to search through. But I'll tell you, I, once computer stuff started, I keep a lot, a lot, a lot. And I have bits of old, of old sermons that will all of a sudden pick up and just little pieces of it to be able to go back and do that. That's just, that's a useful, right? That's a useful tool for ministry that you just mentioned that you've started to have it with now, which is great. Keep those, right? Keep updating your folders and keep updating, keep, get that on your hard drive somewhere, get in the cloud so that you can access that. That's a really great and important, really, a, a really important, like skill, as a seminarian that you will use the rest of your career for sure, to think that all these assignments were like, oh, just a, a check of a box. Like you said, is doing to service to the work that you were doing. Forget that. Yeah, that's right. It's, it's, it's what you're doing for your investment for yourself. Yeah, and you get to, you know, there's a lot of elective opportunities, right? You get to choose a large section. First of all, you're choosing the degree, which alone the core classes should be interesting to you because you chose this. And secondly, the, then you get to go through your electives and you get to choose what it is that you'd like to lean into more in your, in your formation and, and, I mean, those were always thrilling for me. Like, I just loved it. I loved it. And I just, man, you know, it's, it's just another aspect of all the fields I'm feeling right now, Reverend Jules, you know, to feel that I'm done with it is, is an extraordinary thing, but I loved it. And I, and I, and I'm very grateful for everything I'm taking from it. You are getting ready to be graduated. Yeah. To be able to, to get your degree. And I know, I, I always say this and I'm not sure that everybody believes it until they're where you are now. But I, I say this, especially at the beginning of vocational studies, how much different I know they're going to be between that time, starting their internship. And now where they are, because there is a marked difference in students generally, I mean, almost across the board, when students are, are in a position and they're wanting to have that transformation happen and they're willing and they're, they're, they have the, the capability of being open to that, the difference between the first and second year of internship is tremendous. And then even that last year of internship for those that then are going to be graduating, whatever that last kind of piece is moving into graduation, the shift, the difference just to see you all that are going to be there in person and the ones that are going to be on screen, right? There's a difference in your presence. There's just a difference in the way that you are in the world, the way you're moving in the world. However, that is, that you, that's palpable. It's palpable. We can feel it. I mean, I know, like you just said, you've got your head full of all the evaluations and all this. And we recognize that. So I hope you get the opportunity to take a breath and like let all of the evaluation stuff and all that stuff go and really experience and feel the difference that there is for you now as you're about ready because yeah, you know what? You're always, like we said at the beginning, you bring who you, all the things that you can do and know before in this, right? And that's not ever going away, right? Our resumes aren't going away. Those experiences aren't, but that identity of minister that you're embodying that now. And it's exciting. And I hope you get to feel that. I hope you get to, I hope you take a moment and feel that because you've earned it. You've done the work to earn that experience. Well, thank you. You know, it's, it's very special. I actually get to, I mean, I just, I feel like this is again, it's like I want to, we could do 30 more minutes. No one's going to be listening to this podcast anymore at this point, but I have my final service that I'm leading service and preaching this Sunday at my internship congregation and there's going to be a little party afterwards. I've spent way too much time on this service and this sermon to try to figure out how to encapsulate a goodbye and, you know, just grateful, you know, like I said, RevJules, like really there's three more things I could talk about right now, but I feel like just, I appreciate what you're saying. And I, I do feel that I, I think that's ultimately the message is just take the risks, challenge yourself, take classes that scare you. Please just don't let, don't lose track, despite how like the pressure, the work, the money, there are so many sacrifices we have to make to do this, but like what a gift you're giving yourself. And in the end, you do, you, something, you feel that you went through something. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate your time today as you're getting ready for your boy, your last sermon here in a couple of days at your internship congregation and then graduation and all the pieces. So really, thank you for your time. I appreciate it and what an exciting time. Thanks RevJules and loved everybody that signs up. Thank you for listening. Many windows, conversations on ministry is a production of Medville Lumbard Theological School. The music is Destination by Just Thea. This episode is produced by Jules Taylor.