Lessons from early pilots for ZETs in India

The freight ecosystem has long been a major contributor of carbon and particularly matter emissions across the globe, and it is on the list of almost every country to decarbonize their freight. In India, the momentum around zero emission trucks known as ZETs has been evolving at a faster pace each year, and we are now seeing various pilots being run across the nation. ZETs are being seen as a hopeful vehicle to reduce air pollution and create millions of clean jobs. However, major challenges to adopt electric trucks still remain. To name the big ones, hire upfront cost, poor network of charging infrastructure, lower DC or then ice trucks. In this episode, I am chatting with Shwagit Dengar from Climate Group to understand what she is observing on the ground with these pilot deployments and what is needed to fuel a bigger nationwide rollout. Climate Group exists with a mission of driving climate action and to do it fast. In transport, one of the flagship programs is EV100 class, which aggregates demands from companies around the world for zero emission trucks. Shwagit currently supports the program for battery electric truck pilots in India. We chat about the learning from these pilots, challenges for businesses and what is needed to scale this rollout across India. Hope you enjoy the episode. Hey, I am Abhishek Sinha and I have been working in the EV industry across the globe and have been paid to Wanda and solve for these issues for the better part of my career. I have been in the industry before it was cool and now that EVs are here to stay, I am recording this podcast, the EV equation to start a public discussion on how this technology has the power to shape social and economic incentives in the coming future. Like every transition, this transition to electric vehicles opens up avenues for disruptions and has the potential to forever alter the way we do things as humans. I have worked in multiple markets right from London to Nairobi and Vietnam to Canada, but I am starting this journey in my hometown, Pune in India and I am going to be talking to experts, researchers and analysts to uncover insights on how can electric vehicles change the way India moves. Be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and leave comments if your platform has the feature. Welcome to the show, Shivangi. Hi Abhishek, thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Same here. As always, I am always curious about the guests coming on the show and how did they find themselves in the mobility space. So I was your journey and how to do find yourself in the mobility or rather the mobility space now. Okay, perfect. Having me on the podcast, first of all, Abhishek and I will introduce myself, I am Shivangi Tingra and I am working with Climate Group as a program coordinator for Transport in India. To your question, by background and training, I am actually an architect and urban development practitioner. So Transport was always a, we like to look at things in plan architects and urban planners. So circulation and mobility is always an area of interest. And what happened is that when I started practicing or working in the, you know, started working, I started working with governments and development sector entities and my, I developed as a research there and my focus was largely sustainability and inclusivity as, you know, a subject. And sustainable transport was a particular area of interest. So that also brought me to climate action and that is how I have also reached climate group. This is quite purely out of interest as a researcher. And I will also take this opportunity to talk about climate group. We're a nonprofit working in, working to drive climate action and our mission is to drive climate action fast. We do this by unlocking collective action from businesses and governments and we've been in India for over 16 years and we've been working to shift the needle on what we call systems and these are sustainable transport, energy industry, decarbonization and food systems. So in the food, in the sustainable transport system, as part of our flagship initiative, which is the EV 100, we work with big businesses. They are committing to transition to electric. They're fleets latest by 2035 and particularly in India. And in India, our focus has also been on heavy trucking because we look at it as a key to decarbonizing transportation. So that has been a focus area for our work in India. Wow, 16 years for climate group in India, wow, it's not familiar with that. That's been a long time. And kind of makes sense, right? I think mobility is like the artery of a city, connecting places and people and makes sense that you find yourself in mobility. And now you're kind of tackling the most complex ecosystem that I would say is which is trucking. So tell me, Shivangi, why is the trucking ecosystem becoming increasingly important to electrify in India? Yeah, so which is that's a very important question. How we look at it is purely from data that is available on emissions. So on Indian roads, if you look at image details or medium and heavy duty trucks, as we know them, they comprise only 2% of the total vehicles that are applying on Indian roads. On the other hand, and also to create contrast, they are responsible for approximately 35% of on road fuel consumption. And emissions wise, 45% of the total on road transports that are there are coming from image details. This volume of emissions is coming from one segment alone. We look at it as the go to segment to electrify and reduce cut to zero the tailpipe emissions. This will help to decarbonize the transport sector at large. So this is where we start. And what is the ecosystem look like today in 2025? A lot of action has been happening since 2024. What's changed in 25? And I'm also wondering, does it finally make business sense to electrify trucks especially? If you talk to somebody, it's like the first thing that they say is the cost of the truck. Right? So if you could tell us a little bit more about that. So to understand the ecosystem in 2025, we'll have to look at it as a trucking ecosystem in general as well. You need to see that this sector is contributing well to the GDP. It is a growing, continually growing sector. I mean 70% of India's freight annually is handled by the trucking sector alone. And in India, particularly the trucking ecosystem is very unique in that it is very fragmented in nature. Even to the point that operations and logistics are often activities which are carried by third party service providers, apart from shippers and then there are logistics service providers. And even ownership of the trucks is kind of highly dispersed. Close to 60% of the fleet that is owned in India is owned by small and medium fleet operators which is 5 to 10 trucks or even maybe 30 trucks. Yeah, the small fleet operators in India is definitely a kind of a tricky challenge. Like if you just talk about that, like you said, right? I think if I'm not wrong, it's around 80%. Sorry, 75% are small fleet operators where they're owning less than 5 trucks. 25% or 15 or 20% are roughly around medium sized businesses which are owning around less than 20 trucks. And it's about roughly only a 5%, 6%, which own 100 trucks. And now I can attach the data sources for this. I don't quote me directly on this, but yeah, so please go on as you were talking about the fragmentation of these businesses. Yeah, so what I mean is that this fragmentation actually provides a very niche opportunity for electrification. There is an opportunity for upcoming businesses and companies to. think of ways to innovate and that is the opportunity that electrification and electric vehicles bring as it is. But at the same time, it is also necessary to study electric trucking operations that are already there on the ground. And we need to study them closely. This is where Abhishek would like to bring up a recent report that we worked on with CEEW titled India's Road to Zero Emission Trucking, where we looked at some of the earliest efforts that have gone into electrifying trucking fleets in India. And when we were studying some of these early efforts, we learned that what we learned about that particular business case we were asking about. When we talk of transition to electric trucks, what companies have to do is that they need to achieve a parity with their existing total cost of operations, which would include both owning, the truck and operating it. So what should happen if that replacing a truck on a road should prove beneficial to business? And electric trucks bring that. They reduce the cost of operations thanks to charging versus fuel costs. So what they need, what companies have to do now is that they have to do road selection in such a way that the more the truck runs, the electric truck, the better the returns and the better the cost savings. And then, over time, you achieve that parity. This is where what we are seeing, electric truck pilots are coming up. Companies are trying these over certain routes. And they're trying to identify where is it in their existing operations or their clients existing operations that they can deploy these pilots with a certain number of trucks. And with a particular use case suitable to an available truck or that or a truck that they can make available with a partnership with an OEMC. So this is also creating a demand for particular specifications of electric trucks. And this is how ecosystem stakeholders from both demand side and supply sides are coming together. We'll see shippers and LSPs talking to OEMs. And that is what has happened. Like you were saying, going from 24 to 25, up to 24, probably this was happening more in talks, but now trucks are on ground. And driven companies are even fostering partnerships with financiers and even sometimes government entities to get these trucks on ground. Yeah, that's very interesting. Because 24 landscape was more kind of more talks, more high level engagements that's really coming across. And yeah, and I happened to actually read your report that you were referring to. And yeah, it does look like the pilots are underway. And I want to get deeper into that conversation with you, right? But before we get deeper into that, on the outset of that, if you could just give a quick answer on this please, is what about the driver question in India? Because there is a massive truck driver shortage that is happening in India and what are you observing with electrification in the equation there? So Amishake, the shortage that we're talking about is probably the case with trucking in general, but also more particularly the case with electric trucking. Because right now what companies are having to do is that they're having to start businesses which are electric truck only from scratch. Our start of pilots from scratch, so the electric truck drivers already are not there. They are training these existing ice drivers that they have or bringing in new drivers and training them in electric truck operations. OK. OK. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of businesses that are starting with electric trucks only. And I think that's also kind of a great disruption point because now people who are not in the logistics space in the first place are now entering the logistics space. So yeah, interesting. And I'm sure we can just double click on that later. So let's get deeper into this. Now that you've laid out this whole ecosystem, now you've laid out the situation, where did you and your team identify a starting point in this with multiple stakeholders, multiple constraints, cost is high, there are financials involved. What was that first starting point for you all? I thank you for asking that. I wish I would like to point out that with this study, we meant to look at the earliest cases that are out there. We wanted to understand what is it making? What is it that is making it possible for businesses to transition? And we saw that this is becoming possible due to a host of stakeholders. Sometimes it will be an OEM that is identifying a client with a specific relevant use case application to help them transition and create that kind of a particular model specific to their application. And another case would be maybe a new AGV business is bringing together all these partnerships we were talking about and doing that in a commercially viable manner for that business. So we're also seeing that since this is a fragmented business, these pilots are coming up only, you know, dropping up across different regions across the country. We designed our study keeping this in mind. We kept a combination of lead stakeholder, geography, and a unique case use case application in mind while we looked at these pilots. Another important point of our approach that I would like to highlight here would be, there is a human aspect to transitioning trucks in India. See, these trucks are going to be operated by people on ground. And we, like I mentioned, the trucking industry is projected to keep growing rapidly. In fact, the market trend, defining point out, the market trend has been particularly rapid ever since recovering from COVID, specifically for the image GT segment across all vehicles. So add to that the fact that the trucking sector employs so many on-ground operations personnel. What our study also found that the jobs in this sector are expected to grow to 7.7 lakhs in 2050. And a larger chunk of this will be the operational side jobs. So these are going to be demand side companies. And if we want to be in line with Nithi Ayyog's vision of having, you know, a solid demand in 2030 for electric trucks, then definitely we saw that companies are going to have to address this human aspect. And we do see that there are forward-looking companies who are spearheading this. They are doing, you know, some initiatives to within their pilots to transition justly. And this transition still in its nature stages. The information on these pilots is, you know, those cars and needs to be developed. So we went in with that idea into the study. Right. Right. And what did you observe? I'm excited to hear that. Like, you know, could you tell us a little bit more about these initiatives that you're seeing? And what are these, you know, what are some business parameters for these companies? And what kind of goods are they carrying? If you could tell us a little bit more. Yeah. So there are challenges that companies are facing. But like you mentioned, there are very specific kinds of use case applications and goods that they'll carry and that may make it possible or, you know, a business case to transition. I would like to start with some examples of some innovative ways that companies are doing this. We try to understand different business strategies across seven cases. And one example of that will be Kaliani PowerTrain is a company that is a retrofitting centered OEM. What they're doing is they're offering the cost effective parts for small free operators as well. They're converting diesel trucks into electric ones and repowering what repowering does as opposed to new trucks is that it reduces costs. And the Kaliani PowerTrain is also looking at use case specific models where they're identifying clients and tailoring the truck for them. So this is one way the companies are doing this. And like what Shavangde? Like with Kaliani, what use case did you see with Kaliani PowerTrain? So Kalyani Power Train is undertaking a pilot. with the use case of perishable goods, their client is operating in. And that is the pilot we studied. This has been flying in Pune and Maharashtra as a region. Very interesting to see Pune leading the charge on immobility there. Interesting. And what other initiatives are you seeing across the country? Right. So this was an example of an OEM taking that charge. And we also seen some other companies which are from the logistic sites. They are undertaking full logistic models, acquiring vehicles, training drivers and managing charging infrastructure range to end. An example for this is Blue Wheels mobility, who are also operating in urban operations. And how they're facilitating this is through inclusive, and acceptable financing options for drivers directly as well. They're enabling ice drivers and small fleet operators who may be on a single truck or a single vehicle or two and working with them as aggregators on a driver come owner model or say rent to own model. And the company also has dedicated personnel that is simplifying the charging process for drivers on these urban roads. Then there are other operations that I would like to list like billionaire mobility, which is a company that is reducing the burden of installing new charging infrastructure for their clients. Or even dependence on any external charging point operators because billionaire mobility with through its sister company charge zone. They operate their own network and have their own infrastructure, digital platforms, mapping tools, which facilitates the ease for planning routes and supporting client operations. The company is leveraging technology and data to also achieve operational efficiency and better returns for the client. I would like to add that apart from these examples, there are also traditional operations that are transitioning. So in big industrial players like JSW cement, they're working with easily fleet operators now. The company has transitioned their operations for a route with heavy volume of operations. So they are transitioning a route where they're carrying clinker from one end to the other. And on a return journey, they have an assured load of slag thanks to a steel plan from their larger group, JSW. So that is also ensuring like a captive use case as you were mentioning this allows the company to transition control operations as well as charging. And ensure that with a short load, the truck is sweating enough. And to give another example within a captive use cases, another case that we studied was transvolt, which is a again a logistic service provider, come financing solution provider, who have deployed trucks on predictable and fixed routes across similar use cases such as cement. But also port where the movement of the truck is controlled. There is high utilization and efficient charging. The their business in fact has a program for women drivers also I think that reflects an opportunity for businesses to take inclusive operations through new operations like a Navy business. That's very interesting examples that you're listing out some of those names sound very familiar and and yeah different models that are being rolled out. I mean, I think you draw a parallel here. What's happening in the gig worker space or were two wheels right like you're seeing multiple such models come out right like rent to own. These two on subscription financing daily financing is also a thing right if you look around the globe. Okay, these are these are very interesting examples that you're outlining what what as you were your team was also on the ground what I wanted to is like how how did you see. How was the reaction of the fleet fleet owners or the fleet operators or the truck driver themselves right when this electric truck you know kind of rolls into their warehouse. This brand new shining piece of equipment which is. Also I'm like I'm guessing what it's like one could or two piece like more than that maybe and like roughly around 120,000 dollars. So how's there with excited with this kind like what your see on the ground. Yeah, so we cost two companies is something that has definitely come up multiple times. I think I'll come to the point of what is the drivers reaction being so we have talked multiple drivers across these cases and we we have found like a resonating voice. We find that you know very small aspects like the absence of clutch in an electric truck due to being automated that make the drive smooth and everybody has told us that the vehicle does not heat up that may have been you know a miss miss normal or a myth about electric trucks. But there are genuine health benefits to driving an electric truck as opposed to a diesel or a nice truck. There is immediate relief from in cabin pollution the engine on the other hand for ice trucks heats up and that is not the case with an electric truck. There is also reduction in fatigue and exhaustion through long term driving because there is going to be stops for charging the electric truck and it is going to take a certain amount of time and since companies who are operating electric trucks have already taken that into consideration. That makes life easier for the driver as well so drivers have reported these changes and the time that has required to charge the vehicles has also made them more attentive on the road post that. That is very interesting that you are seeing this right in cabin pollution go down fatigue is going down right that is who thought in electric trucks would bring that and now they are actually delivering that I think that I record my first podcast episode we were talking about all these benefits and they were not yet materialized yet and now they are being actually being seen. So coming back if we take a little bit of a macro picture now what I would like to understand is what are the challenges that you are seeing in a bigger electric truck rollout that could happen for these companies or in the given states the given cities that they are operating in. This is very important to talk about and I think this is where I will also bring in the point your point on upfront costs for electric trucks. Definitely that is a major challenge and we have heard that in a resident in manner given the but we also need to understand that the market for electric trucks is not yet mature. Companies must read this operational parity and they have to do this through a longer period of time so companies are really looking for very reliable truck models but also at the same time they need some financial backing to sustain the returns from this truck. And for example what company we are from fleet operators is that they want long term contracts from shippers and they want finance years to say lower the interest rates given the sustainability of an electric truck. What also we see is that the payload capacity for an electric truck of similar specifications as another is truck is a little decrease due to the battery dead weight and that also leads to some reduced revenue. Moreover we have discussed about the fragment in nature of the business the available operational data due to this was also sometimes quite inadequate and this all adds to the burden of the upfront cost already. Another challenge I would like to highlight that very residentally becomes apparent is the availability of charging infrastructure and this is already the case a problem with electric vehicles but in image details it's an even more pronounced issue. So image details require higher power and you know very set specifications which are not a one dintly available publicly in public. infrastructure. Additionally, setting up new charging infrastructure is also a cost that companies are having to bear themselves. Even though the charging costs reduce as operational costs as compared to fuel costs, the charging of e-trots is still expensive because these are also being run by businesses often like charging point operators. And then there is also another issue that we hear from ground that of drivers having restricted access to charging infrastructure which is managed at hotels and restaurants along highways. So if these chart point operators are operating something at such a location, you know the owners are preferring cars over trucks in that locations. Very very interesting just to double confirm in these initiatives that you outlined earlier, what was the most common charging infrastructure that you saw like were these businesses and installing the charger at their warehouse itself to charge these trucks? So what we see is that for operations which are more urban, the companies tend to rely on the available charging infrastructure both public as well as you know through partnerships with CEOs. But on the other hand, if a truck is flying on say a highway and across regions, then the company has to look at a captive scenario where they're having to install this charging infrastructure themselves both at their warehouse but also you know scout for locations where they can install this. Yeah interesting like you know at this starting point at the destination point and how does it turn out? And you know got full bit if you have a third point in there which is even further. So yeah it's becoming a bit of a tricky challenge and I'm hearing that with multiple players even in like East Africa is becoming very similar challenges for there. So yeah sorry to interject and please please go on. So you outlined the challenges with some drivers and how they are finding it restrictive to you know charge at restaurants. Right so that highlights the issue of charging infrastructure and access to charging. But there are other challenges such as you know achieving that TCO over a period of time and recognizing that use case suitability. That comes up when you're operationalizing the pilot and after you have designed the pilot and deployed the truck on ground. Asset utilization often poses a significant challenge for fleet operators. So there may even be restricted route flexibility that comes with a very nature of electric truck operations. So that makes it a problem to ensure beforehand that there will be returns. There are some other challenges that emerge on ground which can be related to estimated energy requirements by the truck on ground for example. They can come from say limited range or you know prolonged charging times or even terrain conditions and traffic conditions. So and also if there is an absence of load on a return journey that makes it you know move. Then another challenge that I would like to highlight is the availability of drivers and their training. This is associated to the human aspect of this industry which I was talking about. The industry or the electric truck industry right now is experiencing high attrition because already there are low pay scales and also the business, sorry this livelihood entails adverse weather conditions and a lack of benefits like you said this is gig work after all. So LSPF and companies that directly recruit for drivers for particular pilots, they're struggling to find replacements after a while for the lead truck drivers and how they have to ensure that the new on-boarder drivers they are receiving proper training. They're spending more time beyond just the you know sessions with OEMs, the OEMs that are providing training to their drivers. So that is another major challenge. Yeah I think somewhere in my head like I don't know I'm just connecting two dots at once right like I mean see electric trucks are bringing in benefits for the drivers right less pollution, much healthier, less fatigue right and this driver shortage that we are happening and what I'm wondering is how could we connect the two dots right being like okay hi we have better trucks and would you like to drive with us for longer right and we could give you better pay and stuff like that. So that's one campaign that I keep like always thinking about right and I think at some point of time a new age logistics provider is going to figure that out and I'm pretty sure and you know I think Indian enterprises are very entrepreneurial I think somebody will figure this out and start creating the new standards for driver retention and eventually it gets adopted as a industry standard right. But yeah super interesting and coming back to all these pilot initiatives that you're that you're seeing so now that you've highlighted the challenges what do you see that is actually working on the ground in these pilots. Right so you mentioned the issue with drivers but I think things are favorable still and what is happening is that there is a collaborative ecosystem which when it comes into play that image duty transition or the electric truck transition becomes possible for a business and that can be that can extend to the transition at large in India as well. We see that policy making is ensuring that zero emission is a revolution and it is a reality for electric trucks as well at the same time companies also want to reduce emissions from transportation so clearly there is a clear demand. What is working in response to this is that there are companies and there are businesses existing business traditional businesses that are integrating several aspects of running an electric truck. This could be from you know getting charge point operators on board to ensuring access to financing and also working out operational efficiency on the ground through collaboration say between the shipper and the LSP working closely together. This has also these have you know supported the initial set of pilots and I expect will support the transition going forward as well and there it has also supported the intent from shippers to transition. So I think looking at the shippers that are already transitioning more shippers want to transition and aggregate that demand for electric trucks. Then sometimes you know the like I said sometimes the initiative is also coming from manufacturers. They work with the you know through the means of a trial with the company to improve operational efficiency. This not just helps the you know maintenance and services loop but also helps support the drivers on ground with their face and issue. This is creating a feedback loop not just for the truck that is already running on ground but also when a new truck is being designed by the SOEM. I think that is what is really leading to the transition becoming your reality. Yeah absolutely that continuous feedback loop is very important even for the OEM to install new features or to remove features that the shipper does not want to see right and yeah that's very interesting to note the points that you highlight and very clearly what are you seeing that's not working from these pilots? Sure so I would say that logistics companies in particular are yet to find that you know footing in the ecosystem that they can lead the transition at their end. Often what a deterrent becomes is that the ease of installing charging infrastructure for operators who are already you know transitioning from an iStruck to relatively expensive truck. So what I see is also you know costs can be reduced for fleet operators through different means. So power at different costs available for a truck you know which is running across regions and across states. What government can do here is you know national and state governments should come up with a coherent policy for land availability for power infrastructure for charging infrastructure that such that you know this demand is met and there is a wider pool of companies. companies that is reached and you know they are able to transition. Apart from this, there are also behavior challenges that are played at the ground. Drivers shore are scars but they are also reluctant as compared to the, they often compare the electric truck to the ice truck they have often been driving because there have not been per se any electric only truck driver's right. They are transitioning themselves from ice trucks to electric trucks so that comparison is always there. Yeah, I think charging is definitely becoming a bigger challenge even more than the cost. I think because there are various business models that exist to subsidize the cost. And and and financiers are interested and understand the business case and they are wanting to get into it. But the charging question is not getting solved especially given the you know a truck is a single truck can be anywhere in India at this point of time and it could go anywhere tomorrow. So and the point that you said earlier was like switching to an electric truck actually limits your route applications right. So that would be a huge challenge. Now now having said this is how you know how how do we achieve scalability and try replicating this across like various cities in Maharashtra or not or wherever you're seeing these initiatives being rolled out. I guess they're having fun India. So how do you suggest that you know how to achieve scalability or what are the challenges that are blocking scalability in this case. So we do see that as a matter of fact companies want to scale their efforts for sure and I might want to disagree with your point that electric trucks limits your route you know that is the case because this ecosystem is nascent and what we do mean is that this effort needs to be replicated and that is what will make charging infrastructure abundantly available given there is an demand given that there is that maturity in the market for that you know some replicable initiatives are out there and shippers should look at those and create the demand for electric trucks to transition their own operations to a sustainable business you know. This will also not just provide you know business to the EV industry it will also provide business to the electric truck or the trucking industry just in general and the industry will look at electric trucking in a positive fashion. Apart from that I think of course the resources from slippers needs to be pulled to create that aggregated demand but there also needs to be some risk sharing. Right now a lot of the risk and the burden falls on the one that buys the truck for example. Financial institutions really need to partner with governments and development banks and come up with you know blended financing solutions right now and they need to tailor this risk investor to investor and this should not you know be like one size fits all. They need to look at these pilots they need to tailor replicable models for replicable financing models and that is the way forward. This would also encourage you know fleet operators that are traditional to transition. Apart from this I think from the supply side OEMs can incentivize the earlier adopters you know they should create more reliable backend solutions. They should also provide after sales support from the very get go that should be guaranteed and lastly then it needs to be innovation on battery technology for sure because this is what is directly influencing their buyers cost effective operations so that is just them being consumer centric. Yeah absolutely and Srivankit thanks for disagreeing with me. This is what the podcast is for. So yes absolutely I think shipers do need to establish that demand and the thing when they start doing it so public or private sector can respond to it right and you are seeing these partnerships where you are also seeing CPU struggle with utilization rates but and also like I think climate group as itself right is the biggest demand signaling groups or can runs the biggest demand signaling campaign out there so that is for sure and I think especially when you see the mandates coming in from companies like Flipkart and the top bigger players to go EV 100 or to go 100% EVs in their roots it kind of trickles down to the small fleet operator right but I heard you I think collective, collective, aggregated action and financing I think those are to big takeaways you know to facilitate replicating across the countries right and it also has to be reason specific all of this is very reason specific if you see Amarashtra will have a very different solution than a Kerala then a very different solution than a Haryana right and yeah so with that Chivangay as we move towards the closing segment of our episode I'd like to ask you is in essence you know what is the way forward for the Indian electric trucking scenario and what should we expect in the coming years one or two years for the coming you know one or two years we will see what I was talking about you know replicability we will see replicability and the companies that have already transitioned say a truck or two in their fleet they will be doing that for you know probably a bigger segment within their operations that way we will see earlier we were seeing the aggregation of demand now we will see like numbers in trucks that have already transitioned and this is already bringing in financiers you know and capturing their interests what we can do is that we bring together both shippers and LSP's and we have them sit with these financing models and have them tailored to their requirement and this is when we see the market mature I think yeah definitely very very well said I think collective action financing those are two huge points that I hope does play out and we see way more examples of that in 25 or 26 right so with that thanks a Tanshivangi for this very lively conversation and thank you for sharing actual insights from the ground on how these pilots are running and I'm pretty sure there's a lesson for for all kinds of ZDD truck pilots that is happening even globally not just in India but globally as well because in my opinion I guess like India is way ahead on their EV transition then other emerging markets as well so it was a pleasure having you on the show and I hope to meet you in person very so Tjavangi. So thank you so much Abhishek it has been a delight and your podcast is wonderful and thank you for hosting a session on this subject and thank you again. Absolutely. Hey there thank you for sticking around to the end and I hope you enjoyed that conversation and found it insightful. I'd appreciate if you could read this episode or leave your comments if the platform allows you and let me know what projects and topics you'd like to hear about next and I'd be happy to cover them. Catch you on the next episode and don't forget to follow the show.