Lena Waithe

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We are very excited about our guest today. It is Lena Weyth, writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well and she's the coolest and we're going to get into how cool she is today. We're going to get into the way she likes to work. We're going to talk about our love of Chicago. We're going to talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're going to talk about the fact that she is the first black woman to ever win a primetime Emmy in comedy writing. We're going to talk about a couple of therapy. We're going to get into it. But before we do that, we always have this section of the show where we speak to somebody who knows our guest who wants to speak well behind their back and give me some questions to ask. Joining me are the two directors, Tony Award Winning Directors of Kat's Jellicle Ball. The show that is out on Broadway as we speak and that Lena is a producer on. And so let's hear from Jaylen Levinson and Bill Roush. Gentlemen, hello. All right. If you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing buying your car online on auto trader makes it way easier, like almost easier than ordering your coffee easier. Really? You can shop tons of cars online, compare prices, check financing and trade in options all from wherever you are. And if you want to start online and still go to the dealership for a test drive, you can do that too. Really? What's great is the flexibility. Start online, finish at the dealer or the other way around your info stays with you so you're not starting from scratch. Plus you're working with local dealer listings so there are real people behind the scenes. And when you're ready, you can pick it up or have it delivered. So whether you know exactly what you want or you're still scrolling, trying to figure it out, auto traders got options that fit how you want to buy by your car online on auto trader. Really? Hi Bill. Hi, Jaylen. Nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations, Tony. Winners. I did happen. Thank you. Before we talk about our guests, just talk me through the evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show. Yeah, it was very surreal. I was there with my mother and my partner. And me and Bill sat by each other and we had to keep playing musical chairs because we Bill had family. I had family. We wanted to like share the time that we sat by them during the award show. Wait, hold on. Let's, I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time. Yeah, absolutely. This is why you can't bring family to award shows. Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming Broadway and seeing Delica ball. Can you just explain what it is? It is Andrew Lloyd Weber's musical cats set in the ballroom scene that grew out of Harlem. And so our cats are not cats. They're human beings competing in a competitive ball. And I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love. Like whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Weber's musical, who love it, people who think they hate it. Everybody has just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Jellica ball. And Jalen, can you explain when you say ballroom, what that means? Yes. So, so ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, '71, '72. And really, the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful beautiful woman named Crystal Lebesia, who was a trans woman of color who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom is a culture, much like hip-hop, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself. It is competition. It is vogue. It is all of those kind of aesthetic things that we understand about the craft. But it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And the structure is centered around the house and the house mother and the house father. And really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point and they are coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so. It's such a great transition into Lena Weith because her work in her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, try to make people feel seen and feel included. And you know, as a black queer woman, she is like breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first year. She's the first there. She's like supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show. That's right. How did that come to be? She saw it when we did it downtown. She saw the off Broadway production and she flipped over it and she brought Cynthia Revo to see it. And she just let us know if this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room right on through previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way. What does a producer on Broadway need to do? Well, they need to find her some money. That's a big part of it. The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also Lena is, you know, a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about. And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season in her life is like how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Katz is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself. But yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch, leaving your house and being in a room with strangers as weird as that kink is might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years. I feel like New York is is often like leading by example how it feels to be among a lot of people, right? New York is always bustling. And even just the recent nicks win is a great example of watching people, you know, literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together. You can get the high from the nicks win in every day at Kassagellacoball. It is that exciting. It is that thrilling. It builds community in that direct way. And what is she what's lean to like as a person because I like to speak well behind people's back and I've found lean to be really, really like charming, curious kind. What's it been like to get to know her what kind of person is she? She's so dope. She's so cool and this is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool. Yeah, she is. That is fun. Like I already put on my Alva today and I look I just before I came in, I looked in mirror and I went, oh my god, I'm not fishing, but thank you. She's also she's so at ease with herself that it that it puts you on. So it's so fun to hang out with her. So we have a thing here where we we ask to get a question for our guest and you guys have been working with Lena, you know her professionally. We're going to get into a bunch of different things that she does. But is there anything that you think I should ask her big, small, silly important that you'd want to hear her talk about? When did you first know in your soul that you were an artist? Great. It's such a theater question. Yeah. That is such a theater question. I love it. Well, it's all getting a circle. Let's ask each other this direct contact. Why would you give each other back? Yeah, love it. One is like I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor. And you know, however cool she is in life, she is 100 times cooler on the dance floor. Yeah. And I'm always like trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like when she goes out, she's like, Oh, that person's here. I know the party. The dancing is going to be on 10. So I'll be curious to know what that list is for her. Oh, these are incredible questions. You guys are such good directors. Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked and it means a lot. Congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do and the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world. Robert, blow back to you. I mean, you're doing really joyful work. And we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now. Absolutely. Thanks. Let's keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you both. Thank you, Amy. You're love you, Lena. Yeah. Bye, guys. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. There's something about being on the road that has a way of leading to those unexpectedly memorable little moments. And in the all-new 2026 Subaru Hybrid, it's like the destination isn't even important. It's the drive, baby. And let me tell you, I'm in that car and I feel like a million bucks. Quiet ride. Comfortable. Love my Subaru. Can't get enough. With up to 581 miles in the Subaru Forester Hybrid and even more 597 in the Cross Track Hybrid, you can go further between stops and stay in the moment longer. Visit Subaru.com/Hybrid to learn more. The Subaru Forester Hybrid and Cross Track Hybrid love goes the extra mile. I was really, really looking forward to it just because we get to hang out. I mean, come on. I know. We'd like to do this when we're not on camera. I know. That's the cool part. Well, it's been, um, Lena Weith is here, everybody. Hi. Very exciting. How's your mic? Good. Good. I'm just like placing it. I don't have a handle on which I was like debating like, do I wear a hat? I mean, I'm feeling good about the no hat. Yeah, I liked, I mean, Lena, everything you wear is cool. It's like Lena. Like every day you wear a hat, you take it off, it looks cool. I'm like, come on. Coolest hat ever. The wear my clothes, the wear my own. It's shit right here. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I want to get into that actually because it's kind of, I want to talk to you about your, your look, your style, and also just the fact that like, you're like, my coolest friend. We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. You're the best. Um, so I heard you say something in another podcast that I love. And I've been thinking about it a lot. Jesus, who does? No, but I think it was another podcast or, um, or TikTok probably, but not on there. No, but those are, that's where I get all my information. Oh, well, you and everybody else. Yeah, I know, but you said like, if you're, you said something that I love, which is if you're afraid that people are going to steal your ideas, you should have more ideas. That is true. I did say that probably a podcast. And it's such a great, it's, it's, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Okay, this is a really good way to kick off such a great question. Because you have a Peabody. Here's a deal. There's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of up and coming writers, if you will, talk about how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copyrighted? Should I register them with the WGA? And I always have a very, I guess it's a hot take response, which is I don't believe someone can steal your idea. Same way, I love it. I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. Even if we all have the same like idea, it's going to be different because it's coming from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also artists, I believe, are oftentimes in the same wave. There's a reason why sometimes you see there's a lot of vampire stuff happening right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here. And it's just because artists are sort of in their silo, they're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, "Oh, I'm going to write this," or this is very similar to this thing. I just don't buy it. Well, what I love about it is it's like the opposite of grasping energy, which is like, I have this idea, the idea is so important. It's my one idea, and also, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of it, but so much of it is people in process, too. An idea can only go so far. Right. And thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that, because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. You do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you do podcasts, you're in theater, you're in TV. You have this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea, and that you're grasping too hard on any one thing. Would you say that's true? Yeah, I think that's really beautifully put, and thank you for saying that, I receive it. I think people want to protect what they have. And there have been big cases about people saying, "This was stolen from this. This was stolen." Sure, there's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person, so therefore the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists, and they just keep kind of doing the same thing, and you're sort of similar. And sometimes that works for people, but I think for me, I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life. Yeah, and I want to be in a different place in my life. And you're never a snob. No. But you know, like you like what you like and you like it passionately, and then you make things like you're kind of high-low in what you do and what you make. And also what I love about you is you love TV. I'm obsessed with television. Yeah, I mean. I know because it raised us. It raised me too. It was like, you know, it's a two-parent household by mom and the television. I mean. Or are you watching when you were yet? Like what was it on TV? You know what I was just saying. I was a kid in the '90s, and I think that was a really interesting time for television. I'm always a lot of sitcoms happening. Yeah. We got perfect strangers. Yes. You got, okay, the Cosby Show, a different world, obviously. Yeah. But also you have stuff like Martin and living single and also in living color. Yes. I mean, also we had Nick at night where we could watch the old shows, like Dick Van Dyke's show. Like, you know, obviously Mary Telemore's show, which was-- Were you watching that, Mary? You know what's interesting? I didn't really. It's interesting, like, certain music you can't hear. Like when you're young, jazz doesn't make sense to you. Yes. You can't hear it. And I think with Mary, and especially as I got older, and I started to watch friends, it was a grace. Woman Grace has a sort of speed to it. And I think with Mary Telemore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit like jazz. It was kind of slow. Like, I mean, like, Chuckles Bice the Dust is one punchline. Like, they're like, we're gonna hold, it's like edging for comedy. They're like, we're not giving this to you until the end. A lot of people might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary. And you, and I talked about this because we were both working on, on like comedic legends, where I did one about Lucie Desi. Yes, we did. And Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example, I think of like what you talk about, which is TV that felt like ahead of its time and also just super cozy. Yeah. What did you, when you got to know her and her work like more? Like, it's so well said that it's like a sound. You have to get used to like a music, you have to get used to. Yeah. When did you start to understand her music and what made you want to do that project? Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college, when I had to sort of watch it. Because if you, I studied writing and producing and television at Columbia College, I did all that. You wanted to be a TV writer at seven. Yes, I did. How did you know that was a job? Like, later, we thought people were just the TV talking. Like, there was like veterinarian and astronaut. I know, and fire person. You know, I think I just, I would see names in the credits. So that's why when I see Susan Phil's Hill and Debbie, I knew their names from their faces. An event lead before she was a belly bowser. And of course, I can't do know all these women, thank God. But I just saw that show and I said, I want to be a part of this. And also, I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, we would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom because that's where the TV was. And we would just sit and watch TV. And it was very communal. And so that's why I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college. And I got the box set on VHS and like, watch the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being. So I read her memoir after all, when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole. It was before you could just like Google somebody. Totally. You had to read about them. And her memoir so well written. So I think it may be how to print. They might have brought it back. But anyway, after all, it's a great memoir. What she talks about being an alcoholic. Being the daughter of an alcoholic. She talks about losing her son to an accidental suicide. Losing her brother to cancer. Losing her little sister to a suicide. I mean, she, the woman that turned the world on with her smile, dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person. And I think, you know, for what she did for women in comedy, there was something dainty about her. Yeah. But not precious. Yes. And I definitely think you're one of the descendants of Mary Talham Moore in terms of someone. Thanks for saying that she was really important in my house. My, my, you know, I had a young mom and my mom used to just like love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting when you're a kid, you're paying attention to what your parents are laughing at. Absolutely. And she, Mary Talham Moore was reminded me of my mom, because it was like, she was like getting more, you know, what is it getting more flies with her? then like she was sweet, but she got her way. And her and Lou Grant, like Nick offering and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and Ron had a very similar kind of like, you know, craft and, you know, but Mary, Mary was like, and she was so like, she was, you could tell she was genuinely funny. And that ensemble on that show was so funny. Yes. And I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her to not make it all about her, even though it's her show. But she wants to be by the shine. You know, but I think Carol Burnett was like that too. She always talks about wanting people to win and succeed. You want to give them the same if you need to. I love that you were producing that. And you, and you mentioned about watching it on VHS. And I want to talk about VHS because you used to work a blockbuster. Yes, I did. Okay. And there are going to be people listening right now that don't understand how important blockbuster was. Well, first of all, what was blockbuster? Because you were like, it was paradise. Okay. A library of film and TV. It was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff. Sometimes you do stuff. This is a crazy big. Now you just sit on your couch and hit a button. You have to go. You have to go hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You have to go up and say, hope that somebody returned, you know, saying face off. This is my return face off. No. And I remember you go for you young people listening. You would go. It was a big day. You could get your popcorn. Get your candy. Yeah, you'd buy it there. Yeah, you would. Yeah. And you'd go off in with like friends or date and you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles. Yeah. Just the sleeve. Yeah. And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing. And you like, if it was there, it usually meant that they had it. But sometimes they didn't. They were like, we're out. Most of the time they didn't have a popular movie. You come in the late on the Sunday. Like, do y'all have a Jurassic Park? You have the latest? No, I don't. I got the old one. Okay. Cool. And then you'd look and you'd want to get face off. And you wouldn't, they wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, what other junk are you going to stuff? Yeah. Okay. What else do you have? Okay. Cool. You got powder. Okay. What's happened? I don't know. Like, it's just like the most random. It's how I got my taste. I would just like rip things up based on the cover. I'll rip this. Okay. Did you have to deal with like the blockbuster guys who like the, you know, there was like like the mini quentin Tarantino's of the world who came up who were like, like directors or want to be. And they wanted to talk to you about film and school you. Okay. Not in Chicago. Okay. They were like more so just like very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. But it was interesting people coming in. Yeah. Well, you know, it's like it was families. You also get mom saying, like, can my son watch this? And you're like, uh, wow. Huh. Like is he into violence and sex? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But no, a lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was. What was happening? And I just was like, I depends on how you want to raise your children to be honest with you. I don't want to be a part of this conversation. You got blockbuster. You were so tight with blockbuster. You were so good at being a blockbuster person. You a blockbuster employee blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party to the blockbuster employee's party a lot? The one L.A. We definitely got into some trouble. Like when I transferred, we got transferred. Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, that's just, which is insane. That's things to who I am. I said, look, I want to keep this job transfer me to the one in L.A. And they did. And it's like, it must have been an awesome employee. I was the best. Of course. I was like on top of it. Come on. I'm like going through the return bit, making sure it's empty. Yeah. You know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Yes. And then you get to L.A. Because why do you want to go to L.A.? Because you want to be acting and writing. And you want to I went there because there's a semester in L.A. program through Columbia College in Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing specs scripts. If you want to do any more, were you writing a script of a show that already exists as you can match the voice? And of course, the thing is I could never crack Parks and Rec. But I did a 30 rock spec. And I did a modern family spec. And I love Parks and Rec. But I just could not. I couldn't grab that voice. I could. I just sort of couldn't do it. And I don't have a lack of time. But what you have to kind of do is sit in your part of your studio apartment, trying to like come up. Like, what's the A story? What's the B story? What's it this? And I was able to kind of like play with those characters a little bit more on 30 rock. And I kind of like speaking of rhythm had like a really percussive, very funny joke per ratio kind of situation. I'm looking at a lot of fun with the Tracy thing. You know, say I think my story for him was like he promised that Obama was going to be this birthday party. But yeah, that got me out to L.A. Like writing those spec scripts and stuff like that and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern. Well, then you assisted Gina. Prince Blathwood. Yes. Blathwood. She said there's no L in it. It's like Python. I said when I was her assistant for two years, I always help people say her last name is the most intense. Okay. Like it's like think about Python and wood and put a B in front of it. Blathwood. So you're assistant for Gina. Prince Blathwood. There you go. Okay, Gina. I love your work. Yes. Come on. She's going to be so happy. Come on, love and bask about secret life of B. Let's go. We had Regina Hall on. We had Viola talking about woman King. Come on. When is Gina getting here? I would love to talk to her because she did children of blood and bones. What did you learn from her? Like what'd you learn about being a boss from her? So much. She's so talented. Okay. So Gina is very cool and I'll watch her navigate certain situations and she would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper. Yeah. And I think also it's so funny. I think about Mary Talon Moore at the top of that documentary. This guy is asking her this very offensive like question, like a woman, happen all going to want to be married and have a child and have a career. And the thing is is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person in real time where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing. And Gina would just never be like frazzled by it. She would just sort of become respond and show up and let the works be for herself. And so that's what I really learned from her is like don't lose your temper. Let the works be for itself. And again, it does not have to lose your cool. You talk about disease. Yes. You talk about getting the part in Master of Non which is where most people met you. Yes. Like the world kind of got to know you. But you've mentioned Alison Jones. Oh, well, so Alison Jones, who's Alison Jones? She's an iconic casting director. Yeah. And she's someone who's discovered many talents. And I'm one of them. I give as these credit for sure. But he in a really cool way when he was casting the what it would used to be called the untitled disease and sorry project. He said, I want to just meet with people before I read with them. And he said, I want to meet interesting people. And and Alison had met with me, you know, like that year earlier that year because she saw something I put on the internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which will ultimately come 20s, which I was not in because again, no desire to be an actor. But I know desire. I think because and it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. That's that's really all I ever wanted to be. Obviously, yes, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said. Yes. And that was just always what it was. And I admire actors a great deal. I love a great TV star, great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it. And and all that comes with that. Yeah. Because it's a lot. And and so I when I wrote the pilot presentation for 20s, it was it was a I was writing a thinly built version of my 20s and myself and what am I friends and all that. And so it got a little, you know, buzz and people were talking about it. And I got a call that Allison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, why is the cast director want to meet with me? I'm not casting anything. And when I went into I walked into her office. Of course, I walked by the poster for freaks and geeks. I walked by the poster for Veepe. I walked by the poster for bridesmaids. And I'm like, okay, this person, uh, clearly she knows when the star walks into her office. So I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And and what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Allison kind of picked up on my taste, being very varied and sort of well around. We talked about mod. We talked about Ed Martin and we talked about all these different things. And she's like, okay. And then she asked me how to have any desire to be an actor. And I said, no. And she said, okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure. As she did, she brought me in for an episode of Veepe, which I completely fell because Julia Louis drivers was in the room and read it with me. And I was like, Oh, no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on. You were nervous. I didn't know Julia was going to be in there. Right. And so I was like, what? Right. You walked in and then you were like, I've just become friends with Julia. I love her. Her voice is in the storyteller more dark. Very grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. Okay. But but what was cool about Allison Jones is that she's like, okay, I'm not worried about that. Bring you in again. Yeah. That's right. The comeback season two. Right. And I'm a person that had the the comeback season one on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary. Listen to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and figuring out about what you share. So I was studying. Okay. That series and all that it was because I knew when I was watching the comeback, when I was in college in Chicago, still living with my mom, I was like, this is something different and new. And this is crazy that she's coming from friends. And then he's coming from sex in the city. Yeah. And they're doing this totally understood. Got it. I got that at that moment. And the depiction of of television writers in that show. It's like how much I like y'all talking shit like what's going on But also for for I'm gonna say about like for a Lisa Kudrow to also give you a version of what an actress can be an aging actress And what that can look like and how that can feel and the insecurity it was crazy So she called me in first it was interesting because she's like do you know what do you know what the comeback is and I said I Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm obsessed with it. She was like, okay, well, they're doing a second season and I said, okay And she was like you want to come in and do an oppressed day. There's gonna be like a bunch of reporters I think you'd be cool. She comes in luckily Lisa nor Michael Patrick came on the wrong. Thank God Lesson learned don't be in the room. Don't be don't let them be in there. So she's put me on tape I said like a line and then I got the call that Michael and Michael was directing that episode and so he picked me Thank God and that was actually my TV debut me being like one of the reporters for her press conference or whatever and so me being On that set It to me that was one of those moments one of those god moments. That was a big moment for me And I remember I had a pitch for my line By the way, I can say it a little bit better. That's always a tricky thing because I'm like all don't be that person I got one line. I have a thought on it But Michael Patrick came to his credit who I love and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine He's also kind of you know god on me a little bit too and he thinks I'm being a little too big for my bridges But he he he heard it and he said you know just better. That's better. It's better and then of course later Allison was talking to a season. She said who are some interesting people. She said oh, I think she'd be lean away And that's how I literally went to his home Literally pulled up to his house walked in sat with him and Alan Yeah, I was a writer on a park's directs where they were Master of none. Yes, I mean those two And I just sat with them and I think I was prepared for that moment because it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings Yeah, and so what for people they don't know like a staffing meeting when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job You kind of do like a general meeting. Yeah, you sit and talk about yourself And you like you know you they've often read a script of yours whether it be a spec or an original and they talk about that Talk about your life and I just sat in front of them and I was not unlike this I was very comfortable in my skin and I just fall in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff And I and they just were kind of we talked like 30 minutes and three of us and then that was it And then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him It's so interesting. You're talking about writers taking meetings because I think for people that are listening like I don't think enough people know that writing for television a lot of it is about like will you be a person that people just want in the room That's right. That's right. You got to be chill. You got to be laid back. You got to be a team player You got to know when to be quiet. You got to know when to speak up. You got to know the hierarchy. You got to know the politics of the room. Have you always known how to do that? You're so naturally good at it. I mean, I know how to how to play my position and I was I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. Right. So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just to you're helping hand. You know, and you can't it also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it. I know I did that in me. You know what I'm saying? It was never never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write obviously a season two of Master of Nine We don't became the things given episode. I'm very grateful for his black woman. I mean, okay, I was standing right in comedy series. Come on. These new rules up, you know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was a lot of people. Oh, yeah, you wrote on Master of Nine. I was like season one. I didn't write on the show at all. Right. Now, mind you, you know how it is when you're in between takes and you're talking to these are like, like these are like, I'm putting that in. I'm throwing that in. I'm like, okay, bad cool. Yeah. But with season two and him and Alan asked, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story. They were like, okay, that's an episode. We got to do that. And I was, okay, cool. Y'all write it. I'm going to do the Spielberg movie. And as he's on that forget he said, if you don't co-write this, we're not doing the episode. I just was feeling like not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do Ready Player One. Yeah. And I was going to be in London. And that was my first feature. Yes. And I didn't want to mess it up. I mean, come on. Come on. Where do you go from there? But he came to London to his credit and we, a weekend when I was not working and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room and just like two days. Cranked it out. Knocked it out. When you were, when you were like digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? Yeah. And I mean, it's such a beautiful episode. And it's so, and it really spoke to Soam and Angela. Oh, my God. Angela Bassett, are you kidding me? Come on. I was like, she's going to say no. I was like, there's no way she comes up to show you. You're not mad, her. You didn't have not met her. Obviously obsessed with her. Yeah. You know, as he's in I both are obsessed with Jackson, five American Dream. That's what we named the character Catherine. Like, but I just was like, she's not going to do it, bro. I was like, you're nuts. Lena Madsook is director of the episode beautifully, Kim Whitley is an episode. What did I want to keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. Yeah. And I think we're so interesting about it, which I think surprised Allen and disease, they thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't really that embracing my sexuality. But it really was more about what would the neighbors think? Now, what will God think? And that was something that was unique in one of my favorite moments in the episode is not unlike in real life when I told my mom I was gay, she looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, I read a diner. It's like, these are strangers. Like, who cares what these other people think? And I think that spoke so much to, I don't know, like, who I am. It doesn't, I don't think me being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity. And I think that's what I'm really trying to do. And that scene is trying to show my mother her own child's humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done, so recognized for such, like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations. Thank you so much. I mean, our beautiful speech too. Your speech was so good. You were so cool and relaxed. Lena, you're up there. Like, like, you just like, no nerves. Yo, I mean, well, look, it's, it's you never know. You know how this goes. Okay. But you never know. And some people, there were, it's interesting. But you're relaxing. You relax people. Wow. I appreciate it. Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way, one. Okay. And that was like, those were tough years. Yeah. Competitive years. Okay. But I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the chanto. I'll never forget it the night before. He was all these parties. The night before. And Donald said to me with very confidence and the cool about him that he has. Yeah. He said, you're going to take the writing one. You're going to take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it. And Sterling K Brown was like, you're going to take it. So I'm getting this weird. People are like, you got it. It's yours. You got to go like, Oh, that's yours. And then, you know, the history that came with it to be, you know, and now you just have Mindy here. She's one of the first woman of color to be nominated in that category for outstanding writing in the comedy series. That's a purpose of the office. And one of the sides one before sketch comedy, right? Which is for Chris Rockshow. And so when they told me when the Academy said, no, you're the first African-American woman to ever be nominated for an outstanding writing in the comedy series for the private time of you. I was like, Oh, huh. Okay. And I think that just it brought a different level of weight to it. Yeah. And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about Howie Berry, when in that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying. And it was, I was in Chicago. So it was laid as hell. It was like, my mom had gone to bed. She said, I hope she will hope the black woman wins. I was like, I know, we'll see. And, and I remembered that speech. And she was very emotional. Yeah. And rightfully so. Yeah. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. You know, and I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Phil's Hill, Debbie Allen, Eveli Bowser, Jennifer Spythe, all these women that had been in television writers rooms. I had influenced me. And, and also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well for us to be seen. And, and just for, for black women that want to write TV comedy is like, and you spoke about this too, which is like comedy, which also just, you know, I think like any, any person that feels like they have to, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people. Yeah. That isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right. Yeah. Because comedy, it's like there's nothing worth of me like, I'm going to write something very important. Like, uh, right. What? I mean, come on. Like, you know, you're like, I'm going to write a classic sketch. I put white women everywhere. Um, yeah, I'm going to change some mind. And so my comedy is like, oh, I'm glad that that episode met so much to so many people. And you must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes, yes. People you can expect a lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me. I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans. I do. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they love Master of Naughty. Love Ready Player One. Yeah. Exactly. What was it like working with Steven Spielberg? Oh my god. We got to interview him for the Coleman Domingo episode. Oh, he gave Coleman a question. And, um, I was saying him like, you know, there's thanks for giving me all of my memories. Yeah. Thank you for giving all the happy childhood. Yeah. Like, all I ever think you've ever done is in my head forever. Yeah. But what was he liked to be, what was it like to be directed by him? - He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. And I always say, he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's who he is. He's very aware of his, of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does. And he's really good at disarming people and making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when auditioned for already a player one. Thank God. - Thank God. - He hired me off of a tape. Like, you know, like I came in obviously for Ellen Lewis who's also another iconic cast and director. And I could tell when I walked into the room it was just very comfortable that she saw something. - Yeah. - And then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Steven. I think that was a part of how I got in that film. And but he just, he took to me. And it's so fun. There's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And he wanted, he said, Lena, I could tell you to like, run off of this cliff and you would do it. And I said, yep, yep, that's how much I trusted him. And you will, you'll follow him to the end of the earth because you know that as hard as in the right place, you know that he wants to make something classic, something iconic. - I feel like you like when there's like a strong leader. - I do, actually. - Like you relax. - Yeah. I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart. - Yeah. - You know, and just sort of has everybody's best interest, you know, in mind. - Are you the kind of person if there's no leader, it'll be you? - I think that, look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? 'Cause I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person. - Why not? - You're like, you don't, you seem like you know how to do that. I mean, somebody's going to do it. - I mean, it's so, first of all, a lot of my friends have been like, oh really, you don't want to control everything. - Yeah, like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans a trip? - I want to sort of curate the experience more so than control it. - Well, this is the same thing. Okay, God, I'm at therapy right now. God, this is me creating words. - You're curating me. - But see, I love that because that's your love language. - Right, I want to make sure we have a good time. - I just want to talk about Shive for a second. Congratulations on it. Like, you're now, it's done. - Yeah, almost. Like, whenever this air is over there. - When this air is, it will have been done. - Wonderful, perfect. - And you are going to be like, you will have, you know, successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show, which never happened. - I want to park some red go. - You can't even remember. - This is a good question. - The fact that you don't know off top. - Seven or eight. - So it tells me everything I want to know. It's the seven or eight. This is why we have to stop. Because people are like, you're going to win 10. You not knowing is everything I want in life. Okay, I know Murray told them more when seven seasons. The first iteration of second setting went six. Will and Grace was eight seasons. - I think, I think we did. - This is what happens when you make television. - Also, you forget. - This is called menopause. - Okay. - I'm Perry, I'm Perry. - I'm Perry. - I'm Perry. - I'm Perry. - Come on, come on, come on. - So fun. - Look, nice sweat. - Oh my god, it's so great. - Nice sweat, baby. - Parks and Rec had seven seasons. - Wow, so you're very very telling more. Okay, one more than you. - And yeah, and you guys did eight and, you know, people might not know. - We didn't do that season. Season six was 16 episodes. - I've heard you talk about that where they were like, we love it more. And you're like, this is so great. - Yeah. - But, no more. - Because people don't understand. - Took me out. - Took me out. - I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10. - I mean, it is. - Cable, what are we doing? - When you, we used to do 20. We had really uneven seasons. Like, we had six seasons, six episodes the first season. And then, I think I'm saying. - Which is the same. - 21 and then 24. And then 16. - Which is normal. - And then, at the time, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes of TV, as people will probably notice, from episode 14. - 14, 16, 16, 16, got a little goofy. - Little goofy. - 'Cause you start an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12. And then you've got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know. - Just, when to treat yourself happen though? - Great question. - Just 'cause that feels like, it's an audience, remember, you wonder, is that y'all just being tired and landing on something? - I'm rate up. - I comment. - Or is it like, we're, this is something we think could actually really take. - Season four, episode four. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh. - Yeah, that feels about right. - Yeah. - 'Cause that was something that just stuck. And it's still, I still get those gifts from people. Like, they're just like, treat yourself. - Treat yourself to 2011. - Come on, man. - What? - And we still, like, we'll say it. Like, what was it? - And by Alan Yang, that episode. - Come on, Alan Yang. - That's a good one. - And congratulations on a incredible run. - Thank you so much. - I mean, it does not happen anymore. - I know. - And it is. - Last time on weekends. - Yeah, it's so true. And, you know, like, you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it. But, you know, we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. - Yeah. - It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also, like, just like the city. It's over the past eight years of the show. And its relationship to the city has changed. - Well, yeah. - It's, it's, it, do you have people from Chicago feel, like, real ownership of that show? - How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it? - I mean, they're mad that it's going away. - Yeah. - They're like, what? Just do it forever. I'm like, I don't know if I can do that. It's like, what, this one's stuff. But they feel like these characters are their family. - Yeah. - And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Wreck went, when, when, when, you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you because I was a person that watched the entire series, it does feel like a part of you is like, not going to be there anymore. - Yeah. - And so, and-- - Like, you're going to miss the characters. - You're going to miss the characters. I'm going to miss the people, the writers. You know how that is. It's just, it's a family. It becomes a family. - Yeah. - Even though it's a, it could be dysfunctional sometimes, and it's work. But you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about. - I want to do a very quick speed around about Chicago. - Coldest you've ever been. - Oh my God. Let me tell you something, winters, as you know, in Chicago, I just relentless, they're, they-- - They're relentless. - They, they test you. I think it's why I'm so cool. - I, I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing, first of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like-- - What's the point? - What's the point? - It's like, accepted. - Yeah. - Deal with it. - Yeah. - No one walks around saying it's cold, like-- - I'm waiting on a bus. - Yeah. - And on a train. - Yes. - And the cold weather. - Yeah. - Walking from the train station to my home. - Yeah. - Like, you don't, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't, I'm nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you or you're added to, like, I've had to walk and snow to get to where I had to go on a train on a bus, like, waiting on a bus in the colds. - Yes. - Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it. - Okay. Best concert or best music you've ever seen there. Best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal. I got to do two. - Okay. - Prince and Whitney. - Oh, my. - What? - I know. But here's the deal. - I would have loved to see many. - Talk about musicality. Here's a deal with a big influence, my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young. - I heard you talk about this. I love this. Say that. - Say that. - I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot. - Well, you might have also been like, like, nobody wants to, like, be in or what their mom is into. - Maybe. - It was mom. The coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great. Your kids just like, they want to be their own person. Maybe was it? - I don't know. - Okay. - She would play him a lot, which is, like, makes sense now, you think about it in the car in the house. And I just was like a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now, fast forward, he's coming to Chicago. And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody whose music? I don't like. And she said, because you don't understand that you need to understand that no child of mine is not going to be a fan of Frank. I mean, this is really, she's not joking with her or her friend Monique. They in the front seat, I'm in the back upset. And we're going through like, united centers on, I don't know. And we pull up there. I go to this concert and I am like baptized in a way by his music and I hear it for the first time. Wow. Live. And I'm like, stand on my mom and her friend. They just have it the best time. And I'm just, just in awe. Yeah. And remember, and we have it. I still have a t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the, then you could go to record store. I went and bought all the records and was like listening to everything. You went to pop-pasture, you got all the roots. I really was educated and it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward, I'm in L.A. and he does a whole, like, you know, a sit at the forum. And for a while, and I would go to those concerts and like listen and, and I haven't tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like I have a prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which also have her tattooed here on my arm, paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out, I'm just, I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, I've [BLANK_AUDIO] of all. And I'm not alone in that, you know, growing up in the 90s and being born in the 80s, she was it. She was it. There was no, there was no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember finally, like being in the same space. And she was, and my love is your love really was like a comeback, speaking to the comeback. It was her sort of coming back and saying like, I'm not done yet. I'm not done. You know, yes, we don't, I'm still here and I still have a voice and I still matter. And I didn't even understand the significance of that. You know, as a young person, I'm like, oh, we can come out with new music. What? Oh, man, they ain't getting a greatest hits. It's just she's coming out with some new stuff. And, and that was even really important for me to see that for her to say, this is where I am now in my life. I'm going to be rocking with Wycliffe and Missie Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauren Hill. And these people are who they are without me being who I am. And, and I remember that album and those videos and, and me just feeling really, and I have a t-shirt from that one, which I, which I wear often. And I, it's something about those, those, those shirts and those, when you go to concerts, like grab a t-shirt. I know. There's so many concerts I, like I regret. Like one of my, I went to, like new edition was one of my first concerts. I'm on and that's why we love you. God, I would. You can come to the cook out. You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're with us. We love you. Bobby Ricken, like, come on. I love girl who cares. But me and I wish I had a t-shirt. I would do it during the Jackson concert. I was like, oh, the rhythm nation. I still have that one. Like the, the merch shirts, there's something of, it's a, it's a piece of history. But the fact that I can still fit my down. Yeah, that's interesting. Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? Because I do it because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else. It's the part of being a lesbian. It's a mass park. Yeah, so many parks. We don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really don't look at a job. I mean, it's so true. It's so true. It's so true. And like, if your style, I love your style. And it's very you. It's really like, it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like, it's just like you as a person. You're just never trying to are and it's always cool. Thank you so much. And do you have a style that you pick all this stuff for yourself? Well, it's so funny because I do, Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia, is like, he's actually her style. He would joke and be like, "Leon, I'm your style. It's too sometimes." Yeah, yeah. But if they actually do a real work, they like do this stuff and every conversation. So RuPaul, he says, "Everybody is in drag." And I think for me, I want to feel how on the outside how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. I always want to feel comfortable. Not me too. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want someone else's comfort to be a priority. When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it? You know it's so interesting because I'm doing a clothing line right now. No, proximity. All right. With the designer, her name is Knox and she's from New York and she, I like to wear it because I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman and we were friends and we were like, and this is a part of what she's doing. She made this for me and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I used to wear those t-shirts where there was a whole ton of people wearing t-shirts with like a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke. That was a thing. I was doing so much. I was like, Lord help me. So glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage, like stuff, like vintage shirts and things like that. They admit something to me. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, make a little bit of money. I was like, okay, cool. I get a little designer thing here. There was a thing where you wanted the designer brand there, right there. So people know you were in Valentino. Yeah. Then you get old and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino. Just let it be, you know, if she does quiet luxury. Yes. You know, the white t-shirt cost 500 dollars. I mean, listen, I'm always asking for she does. I'm like, where does this go? And she's like, she's right now. She's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen. Everything is gigantic. Japanese. Oh my god. Everything she walks in. I'm like, this is what we're doing now. It looks incredible. Everything she's wearing is incredible. She's so chic and just easy. Like, I took a lot to her. I was like, okay, the little plane, little jacket, a little this little. I still, I still a little bit where we're sheet up. Like, okay, we're sheets. But I think you, I think style is not on like your voice. So you have to try different things, find it over time. But I do think my queerness does a lend itself to my style. A little bit part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to, to impress dudes. Right. We'll even impress like women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good to me? Well, this is kind of a segue, which is you're, you're, you're the producer right now on a show that is like all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it's a show called the Jellicle Ball. This is true. And that is the Jellicle Ball. That's the Jellicle Ball. You are a producer on it. Yes, one of the co-producers. Talk about watching it in real time. People like figuring out like how I want to, how I want to be in the world. Not only how I want to dress, but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist. Like, how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it? And why did you want to be part of it? Well, thank God. Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called and she said you got to see the show. You got to come down. You got to come to New York to see it. And I bet people might be like a little intimidated when Cynthia revos in the audience. That's a, that would be, I would be like, I think they were very excited to show off their skills. But she was there. She gets judged over there at pack. And so she called me and she was like, there's something that's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, now you need to come. And so, okay, so I came, saw and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway. I hope. And if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing. I think because, you know, there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows and they started requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us. Like, we need to be a part of this because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. We want to get out there and like wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers to say, yeah, you got to actually come on and be a part of this. And, you know, speaking of Black Buster, I watched Paris's burning that documentary because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I say, I'm going to watch this doc. And I never stopped watching it. I kept rewatching it again and again and again. And I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. We go back and watch Paris's burning. There's just joke joke joke. They don't even try. They're just being hilarious. And I mean, that's, that to me is like a real love language is when people like tease each other. Oh my gosh. It's like. Yeah. The white version of these black versions, though, shape. It's like we're going to shape. We're like being fierce. We're talking trash. And so I just loved how the Paris's burning really obviously helped to influence, you know, a castage at Lookable and also influence polls and things like that. But to see Junior LaBeja, who was in the documentary and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away for him to be on that stage every night and being able to feel that love and receive it. I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice on obviously on Broadway. Obviously once an off Broadway and it's something that just brings me so much joy. Well, we got to talk to the directors. Oh, come on. The Tony award-winning directors. That's what they are now. They're the best. And we got to talk well behind your back with them. Oh my goodness. Because these two, the dynamic duo. First of all, I was very stressed. I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony. Well, come on. I know they had a lot of people in those seats. Yeah. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody and I was like, no, you don't look. It's your night. But they, but they, but they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you in Cynthia, like use your currency to get this show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena, like you are, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support. And like you like what you like. And you, when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Like you are, you know, your mentor for so many people. And you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome. And they love working with you. And they had a couple questions for you. Oh my goodness. And evident ivory. Okay. And so Jalen's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor or what kind of person do you see in the dance floor that gets you excited that makes you think this is going to be a good party? Oh, like, who do I see them on the dance floor is going to be a good time? You know what I mean? Who are you looking for? Might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person. Wow. of party. You know what's interesting because I I love I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center. I know because you're cool. I don't need to be in the center. I know that's a cool people. People do, they dance on the side, they dance on the side. I want the side of it to cut. You gotta be doing the same stuff. Oh, oh, oh, I know barely moving, looking clearly. I get breaking a sweat. You mean you're not break dancing in the middle like the person that's like I'm in a puppet and going for it. But you don't want though. I fuck with those people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you need that person party pump. You need to be on set. I'll tell you what I can bring to a party. What's that? I'll be the first one on the dance floor. Yeah, you will. Because you're not you don't have any. I don't care. And somebody's got to start it and nobody wants to and we've been in like industry pressure. It's like, there's a great DJ. Nobody's dancing. We got to start this. Like, what are we going to talk to each other? Like enough of that. Let's go. I'll sacrifice myself and be number one. That's hopefully a friend. Just trying to cool. That's all I love to read in bossy pants. I love that section about you. When Tina says like, would A.B. got in there? I was like, oh, things have changed. Things are going to be different around here. Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's so reflection of you at a party. Like you're not afraid to be the first. Well, I'll be embarrassed. I don't care. Which is what makes you amazing. But who do you like to see? Look type of person. What type of person? Or like, is there a friend that you're like, okay, they're here. You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. Like, like, I'm not skilled. You're not taught. We just going off of the vibes. Who's a good dancer? Well, a lot of the cast from Cats. Like, we have to party. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not. I'm not even doing a two step over here. I'm like, I'll do what you're doing. Like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens like are doing a different kind of vibe because they know choreography. Yes. That's the thing. Like dancers who and performers. I really, I really love watching them because because there's an art to it. There's something to it. I was saying earlier. It's like magic. It is. I like watching people dance. That's why that's why I don't. I'm like, I don't want to get in the way. I don't want to just like catch a vibe. Be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance because I can watch them all night. Okay. And the last question today is, what are you? Because I know you love. You're like a culture culture. You keep up. Yeah. What right now are you watching? Listening to what are you into? Give me some Rex. It could be a video that you can't stop barging. It could be so much. And like, let's, let's let's let have it be funny. Okay. I can't watch anymore. I know you were going to say, I know. I thought to go half man. I was about to say you were going to go half man and baby reindeer. Okay. I'm looking the last. I know. I'm sorry. I know. I think that's actually a comedy. I know. I know. Oh god. Okay. Damn. Are you a couple's therapy girl? Okay. Couples therapy. Let's talk about a recent season. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. First of all, who do we want to tell? What? I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what is so good about couple's therapy? Please. I think is that you watch it and you're like, I got these two bit. You think, you think like you're always proving a little wrong. Every time. Oh my gosh. I am anyway. Like, it's like, I know what this problem is. This person, this person, you think you're good. I like therapy. Yeah. And then they start to talking. You're like, oh, they're not here for that. They're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking. You know, like, like, we don't know anyone's shit. I'm not smart. Like, I'm not Dr. Orner. Like, she has a PhD. Exactly. Like, I love being proven wrong. Because I'm like, that guy is not right for her. And she's two, whatever. And then it's like, you're that friend. No, you're not. You're wrong. Like, you're not. You don't know. And the way in which you watch how communicate, how different everybody's communication styles are. Very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree. When you're in a relationship, absolutely right. Okay. You learn so much about yourself. You learn so much. And those couples are awesome for participating in it. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Truly because what I also learn is that we all have childhood traumas that come out around episode four. Oh, yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope. Ever. Um, and, and you see how that is playing out in their relationship. Yeah. And my hope is, and I'm also, you know, I've been therapist. I'm a therapist. I'm a therapist. Everybody relax. But I, I, I, I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, it's, so it sounds very simple and easy to understand. But you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this? Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that? And it's, oh, because I didn't have, my mom didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn that for myself as an adult or my, my partner has an abandonment wound. And so when I go quiet or I leave without saying goodbye, right? It triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so, and, and that's why I think, um, learning and therapy that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people want to protect that or I don't want to tell you this, this hard thing. And the thing I learned too is like, truth does no harm. And that, and so I've had to get really honest with like, people I love or, or say like, Hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of. I'm embarrassed by, but I want to say it out loud and see where you stand, not to test you to see if you'll stay. But rather, so you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay. It's that's so well said. And, and you, Lena, you just said something that wrote like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things. Wow. That's good. Because it's like, sometimes I like break the window when there's a door right next to it that's open. Like, you want to get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's, it's good practice. Just what you just said. Like, Hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel about, like, just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like, just practice. Because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, if you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking or like you said, like we withdraw, or we like over, it's, it's humans are fascinating. And they really, and I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this case is single women, whoever's certain age, and I'm single. And the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier. And it's so funny, because I always think that is not how a relationship feels. How that goes. I was like, if you expect to somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun or romance, like, no, it's like imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah, a real true relationship makes you confront the stuff that you want to run away from. Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things, with fascinating with the like young people, young love, people falling in love. They're just so into it. And then everybody gets there. And then we never ask them another question again. We never talk to people who've been married for 10 years. And like, how's it going? What's going on? Whatever, we're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle, the in between is like, nobody even, nobody talks about it. They don't ask any questions about it. And it's the same way with like, I'm finding the same way with like middle age. Like people are really fascinated with like, you know, young people on the rise. And they're fascinated with like the gravitas of being the legend. And they're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah, a lot of things happening. That's true. You know, I mean, I'm 42. And so I think maybe little tiny baby. What? 42. So cute. Okay. No, no. No, 42. 42. 42. Is it interesting? It's interesting. Many of them. I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm a childless by choice. I have no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying in terms of the falling, the the newness of something. I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated when we romanticize the meet cute. Oh, yeah. And the meet cute is cool. It's great. But I think what I'm learning so much is the comfort being comfortable in the boredom. Yes, comfortable in the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment? Like what is contentment? Like because familiarity breathes contempt. That's right. And oh, you talk about this forever. I know. We got it. I mean, because there's nothing like, I mean, I'm sure you watch couples there. We'll wrap it up by saying. Couples therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game where you're watching after many seasons and then some like a person will say something and their partner will be like, oh, they're rising. You're like, and there it is. Couples therapy is so good. It's just great. Like you're very well. That's that's my big thing. Couples therapy. And I'm trying to think of there's like, I'm going to just watch as much therapy as I know. And like music. I'm trying I kind of think I don't have my phone, but like, please listen to Tim's T E M S. Amazing singer. I love Tim. She's great. That Lauren Hill tribute phenomenal. I know. Lauren has to get up there. Lauren say, I can't let you do a tribute without BB at the party. I know. She said, let me get up here and do my song. One album. But technically people sleep on on plug. Go listen to Lauren Hill on plug, back with MTV used to do that. I love that album. I love that record. Her voice is like scratchy and she's real. She doesn't been through some stuff. Yeah. I love that album post success. Yeah. Yeah. I'm telling you about some shit. But God, it would have taken. I wish there was like 10 more albums for her. I see. Here's the deal. We can't demand labor. I know. We have to get out of here. I know. I probably need to leave for another hand that I was supposed to have. And they're like, what was you doing here with Amy? Classic. That's what we would do. Thank you for coming. I love you. This is so fun. Thank you so much. Lena Wade. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway in a show called Fame where she plays this incredible dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreographer and actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Lee Roy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has, she's, she did a million episodes of a different world. You can catch her talking to Lena Wade on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from the Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena. And thanks everybody. We'll see you soon. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weissberman and me, Amy Poler. The show is produced by the Ringer and PaperKite. For the Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spalain, Kaya McMullen, and Alia Zaneras. For PaperKite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weissberman. Original music by Amy Miles.