Lena Dunham

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have Lena Dunham with us today, Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of girls, best selling author of her memoir, Famsick. We are going to get into it with Lena. We are going to talk about Nora Efron. We're going to talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. How about whether or not one should go on Great British Bake Off? Is it actually worth it? We are going to get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation and we always like to talk to somebody who knows her guest, who has a question for her guest and wants to speak well behind their back. And we spoke to Natalie Portman, a classy actress, Natalie. You know her from the black swan from wrapping on SNL from a little indie called Star Wars. And she and Lena are working on a rom-com together. So let's get Natalie on the horn. I believe we're talking to her from outside of the country. So Bonjour or Bonsoir, Natalie. This episode is presented by Hilton. Guys, you know what vacation perfectionism is? It's the pressure to get your family summer vacation booked and make it perfect and memorable. Pressful, right? Don't worry, because the team at Hilton takes care of what matters so you can exhale and disconnect. They've got over 9,000 hotels around the world, including amazing resorts and all inclusive options. So you'll definitely find this day that you're looking for. When you want your summer vacation, a feel like a vacation, it matters where you stay. Click now at hilton.com, Hilton, for this day. Hi, Natalie. Hi. Nice to see you. Thank you, too. Thanks for talking to us today. First of all, congrats on the summer, Bob. Thank you, too. I mean, well, you're kind of even, you've been doing it for, for a while, right? Well, I have, you know, there's really like no option with my hair. My hair is kind of, my hair just cuts itself. Okay. So, first of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in with Mark Ruffalo and my wife Rashida Jones and many others. She's my wife, too. So, I'm glad we share that. Well, I'd like to, I'd like to talk about that because we can't share her. She's a polygamist. Well, I'd like to get her on the horn and make her pick. That's fair. That's fair. That would actually probably be her nightmare if we called Rashida right now and we're like, me and Natalie. Exactly. She'll be like Ezra. I do want to talk about your film and I'm working with Lena, but, but by the way, have you been listening to the Lonely Island Seth Meyers podcast at all? No, but I've heard amazing things about it. I highly recommend their episode about your rap. It's so, it's so good and it's so funny and it's like very in-depth about how it all came together. They're the best. And that was so fun. That was, and it just, it's such a time capsule, too, because it's just like a time in the 2000s. So, that's it's like the thing. Birth of YouTube, like, so wild. You've got short hair. So exciting. Yeah. Post-head shaving. Wow. That was a grow-in. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Man, you know, you're not really an actress unless you have one head-shaming. Like, you've got to shave your head once. Have you ever shaved your head? No. I would, I have kind of a small head. So I would be. That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that. Oh, really? Thank you so much. Does my head look perfectly normal sized? You know, well, you know the whole theory that, like, the bigger the head, the more successful you are, do you know this theory? Oh, really? No, I don't. Um, when, at SNL, I'm sure this happened to you, too, when you were there, like they'll measure your head, you know, for prosthetics and stuff like that. And so you get a sense of who has really big heads and supposedly historically, the bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck. No way. Yeah. That's really funny. Now that I've brought this up, you're going to start to notice. You're going to start to notice, like, wow, he has a huge head. Like he's, that's why he's running a country or whatever. You're going to notice it. That's still funny, but I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful, Amy. Thank you so much. Maybe, maybe I'm a small-headed success. Maybe, yeah, maybe you're an outlier. But I do wear a, I wear a young boy's hat. I can wear a young man's hat. That's very lucky, very lucky. So I'm interviewing Lena today. Yes. And, you know, I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews, like she's been kind of on tour, online, like, really out there, and I've known her for a long time, and I'm excited to talk about the different ways that I've known her, but I've never known her as a director. I've never worked with her in that way, and I'm curious what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way. She's the best director. I've, one of the best, if not the best, I've worked with, she's so on point, like, the notes she gives are so, like, astute and specific, and, like, she pays attention to everything, and she doesn't also, like, hesitate to give compliments to, about very specific things, along with, like, maybe try this different, and she's extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like, I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy, because the amount of, like, generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness, she puts out all day to everyone is, like, pretty miraculous, so the very, like, the environment on set is incredible, because everyone's just so happy. Not a surprise to hear that, and so nice to hear that, and that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will compliment something you've done. Like, that isn't always the case. Like, it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it. Exactly. And it's specific, because a lot of people will be like, "Oh, good job," or, like, that was a really nice take or something, but like, I like how you, like, accented the, you know, word in that, that was really funny in that line, you know, very, a very specific thing that she notices, or like, that face you made in response to Rashida or whatever, like, that was great, or it's, it's not just in general, like, you can tell she's really just watching so carefully and sharply, and her ideas are so good, and she comes up with like, brilliant new lines all the time, you know, the way only great comedy minds, like yourself can do. Okay. So, do you have a question for our guest today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask her? My question for her is, what, well, I have one kind of, one that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig to get? Okay. So, you're thinking about getting a pig. I actually can't in where I live, but, but I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of knowledge about this. So, and I like to hear her talk about pigs. That is a great question because I do enjoy pigs, they are really cute. Yes. So, Lena, what is the best pig? And I say, get the pig, you know what I mean, even if you're not allowed to have it. So, the problem is, is that where I rent, there's wild boars. Oh, yeah. Apparently, the wild boars mate with pigs and make a very dangerous hybrid. And so, it's illegal in that area, okay, because there's some, did not expect that to be the shit. The shit is hybrid, baby pig. And I don't want to be responsible, I think I'll get kicked out of France. So. Okay. And that is actually, that's very responsible parenting, that's responsible pig parenting. And I have a thousand questions about the wild boars. I mean, it's the main topic of conversation. You never hear about like really nice boars. Well, I think like domesticated boars are pigs, right? I'm not ready to say that. I don't know. We should ask Lena. We should ask Lena. We should ask Lena. Because the big boar is going to come for us in a way that I'm not ready for. Okay. I'm going to ask her the difference between boars and pigs. Natalie, thank you so much for doing this, and we really mean a lot. And before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me, have a wonderful day, Amy, your head may be small, but your heart is large. et petite mais ton coeur est grand. Ah! The France is gonna murder me. - For that. - We're gonna send the boards. - They're gonna hear a ding-dong right now. - It's gonna be four French boards. - Language boards. - No, thank you for giving that. - It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful. And especially in French, thank you Natalie. Thanks is really nice to see you. - Thank you. - Thanks for having me. - I'm gonna see you. - Yeah, you too. - Okay, you too. - Bye. - Bye. - Enjoy Lena. Give her a kiss for me. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate First could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking whether your guest ordered food and is expecting a delivery to arrive mid-podcast record. Lesson learned. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate First for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate, North American insurance company and affiliates, North Brook, Illinois. Thank you, Lena. Thank you for being here. - It's really good to see you. - It's been a long time. - I know, I've missed you. - I know, and congrats you just celebrated your 40th birthday. - I have my 40th birthday. - How does it feel to turn the corner? - I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40 and seem to have liked it. - I think it kind of rules. - Yeah. - I like it. - I like getting older. - There are much more than being young. - You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realize, but there's like some kind of pressure that's dissipating. - Yeah. - And some kind of attention that is known, that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or are getting. - Yeah. - And it's a huge relief. - I said, sometimes it's like you're in the good way gaining a cloak of invisibility. - Yeah. - And also, I was so-- Even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really like marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever, I was so dominated by sheds and masts and ought tos. And now I feel really okay going, that's not really my thing, that's not for me. So glad if it's for you, not for me. I mean, even just realizing like, I don't really like to go to parties. - Dude. - I don't like to go to parties. - It's not even that I want to be asleep early. I just want to be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed. - Well, I want to talk to you about your sleep. - Okay. (laughing) - Because I have some thoughts. - Okay, I would love to get that one. - Because we talk, you talk a lot about it in the book and we can't wait to talk about it. But when you don't like going to a party, what would be your ideal gathering? - Great, what would be my good hang. - What would you bring it back? - To bring it back. - To bring it back. - Thank you. - I'd like to hang out on the couch or on bed with one friend, two friends. - One or two. - Maybe we order some food. We hang out with some animals, we gab. Then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe like pot around, move one pile of things from one corner of the room to another. - Yes. - Then read a book and maybe like watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then fall to sleep. - And text him and be like, that was fun. - Yes, and be like, I love being your friend. - I wish we were still together. - But you're very happy that you're like both on your maths. - Yes, totally, that's exactly what I like. Or like what I'm hang out with my nuclear family. And I like when we all four of us read on different, tufted surfaces near each other. And then everyone sort of like puts themselves to bed. We parallel play and then everyone puts themselves to bed. - I mean, I bet you get this a lot. And you talk about it a little bit in your book. Like you present as such an extrovert, right? And I relate, I present very extroverted too. But I, from what you've written about, that you are secretly quite introverted. - Yes. - And it's kind of hard to, you're in an extroverted business. And you like to talk. And you like to have other people talk. You want to draw that out of other people too. - I like to talk and I like to listen. - Yeah, you love to have a conversation. I know that about you. And that is expensive. - Yes. - But it takes a very long time to realize that, especially if you're good at it. - Well, it's interesting. That's very beautifully put. And I've always found you to be exceedingly wise. But I have always found you to be despite your adorable little blonde bob, you are wise. - Oh my God, thank you. I was talking about a bob earlier. - You are a very wise lady. - It's a bob summer. - After a party, I mean, I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for 18 hours minimum. - It actually leads me into my first question to you, which is you've been on a press tour. You've been talking nonstop with many people about your book, which is a very personal book. - So now that you've done a bunch of these, what have you learned about how you like to talk about it? How can. How do you take care of yourself when you talk about it? - These are such good questions. - You've done this before. It's a strange thing to write a book about what it cost you to go on press tours and talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it. Maybe the most truthful thing would have been to just drop it like a surprise album and then go, "I'll be in my bedroom for six months." You guys figure it out. But at the same time, I really love. This is going to sound. I really love books. But I really love books. And I really love. I feel really lucky that I got to write it. And there's issues in it, like, you know, the trying to talk about how we kind of perceive and consume female celebrity, how chronic illness, mental health stuff, that's, like, feels like things that I am excited to get to talk about in the right way. But I had to really remind myself before going out. When I was really tap dancing as hard as I could in my 20s, I went into every interview, basically, the way that I would have gone into, like, every playdate when I was in second grade, which was, I hope you want to be my friend and I hope you want to invite me back. I'm always called it, she always, she still does. She'll be, like, 50% role, because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything will be fine. You're in a right place, yeah. Because I have tried to give 25%. I mean, I really do feel like you're speaking to something really true, not just women, obviously, but a lot of women. Over-deliver. They over-deliver in every way. And they're exhausted. And they're mature. Of course, I resent the things I do to myself. It's gonna sound like a detour, but it's not cool, just that. I have pet pigs. Oh, we're gonna talk about it. To quote Lisa Renna's memoir title, you better, you better believe I'm gonna talk about it. It's about something you know I'm gonna talk about it. And a quote, "Wanda Sykes's book." Yeah, I said it. Continue. But there is the thing when you're trained. When I got a pick, I realized, okay, this is not like a dog. This is not like a cat. I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this. And there's a woman named Susan Magitzin, who is the pre-eminent pick trainer and rescue artist of our time. Excellent. And Susan has a Zoom that she does every Monday night called for pig's sake, where all the pig owners can get on and ask for questions. Susan, and at her farm, Ross Mill Farms, where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted, because they thought they were so cute and little, and then they are 200 pounds of attitude. Yeah. If you were attitude. But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they develop something called spoiled SPS, spoiled pig syndrome. Which is, it is a well-known condition. Where in a pig starts to, if you ask your pig, say you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats. Right. Suddenly, you ask them to do anything. They're like, no, that's right. The deal that we were in. And then they start to become aggressive. They start to destroy things. They get an attitude because they've got spoiled pigs syndrome. And I told my brother about it. And he was like, you mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated? Like you have the worst treats without the trick. Where's the trick, babe? There is no trick. And he said, also, it's the thing about spoiled pigs syndrome is at the end of the day you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault, but your own. Oh, I know. That's the worst. I know. Is it always comes back to, I mean that, I would say that is the one thing about being over 40. Is there just less and less ability to kind of put the blame externally? Like you're like, oh no, I know better. Thank God I know better, but fuck. Now I know better. Okay, it took you eight years to write this book. Yeah. How did you know when it was done? Really good question. A really good question. So my editor Andy Ward is one of my most favorite people. We love Andy Ward. We live for Andy Ward. And he's just a good, he's a good man. I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot. I don't love it, but he is a girl dad. He's a girl dad to us all. And he's a writer dad. And he's just the greatest. And what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe people magazine would mention it. Right. We can get that out there. Yeah, we can get that out there. Okay, it's ready. And he really cares. And he really pushed me to, you know, I started the book when I was three months out of rehab. And I just thought like, I'll jot off some of these experiences. And then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again. Yeah. And it ended up sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself. Yeah. I was like, this isn't going to be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on. If I don't, if I have to tell the story and I also have tried to understand how I got there. And it turns out that takes time. And you know, you've talked about there's so many things in the book, there's about there's relationship breakups, there's tons of stuff about figuring out like you spoke of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you. And there's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with. But I'm also interested in a couple of things, but but I'm also interested in the way you speak about like looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older. I was really, I want, I could have read a million pages about you and Nora Efron and I, we talk about her on this podcast a lot. I never had the pleasure to meet her, but you toured a really had a ball. Thank you for saying that. I would have loved to have met her. And I guess it's not really a deep question, but it kind of feels like it is like she gave you tips, decorating tips, she did. But that feels very just like very maternal. One of the ways that she showed care was she had this incredible mental rolodex of here's where you get your bagels and here's where you blow your hair out and here's who should paint your walls. But the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors, like giving you all the tools to live well. She said to me, you cannot shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight. She's like, and don't get the medium weight, get the lightweight zip puffer cardigan. You know, these things are she's like, I've been here for a while and I've figured out. She's curated her life. It was exactly that. And she, and I felt like how lucky it might to be the person that she has chosen to give this, all of this incredible wisdom and information to. And when she died, I mean, there are hundreds of us. Somehow she found the time to do this. She would just see someone and think, I don't know if she thought, you know, they amuse me enough that I can stand to have them around. Or if she just thought they seemed like they need it, but she showed up for other women, younger women in this way that was so mind-blowing. And I think part of why she did it was 'cause it also made her feel good. Well, now that you're like, now millennials are getting older and welcome to the club millennials. I'm here to say it's not so bad. But now millennials are turning 40. Like, and they're like, you're becoming a mentor. You have mentees, I'm sure. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice where you just try to say, like, I'm here and I'm available. Yeah. Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting. And I'm curious, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do. Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's gonna really hurt you and damage, if I'm like, have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seat belt. But at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was that age. I'm so like, to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm. (laughing) Like, you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some Cody stuff we're talking about, like, when you see somebody, it's like, what are you gonna be like, don't do it? Like, what are you gonna say, don't do that job? Don't take it, don't date that guy. Like, we all have to make these mistakes. And nobody listens when you do anyway. If someone has a question and I can answer it, I am delighted and I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want and I will be here sharing you on. Speaking of that, the way you talk about the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a Gen Xer. So my Gen grew up with like, working girl and you were your speakers in the subway and like hustle, like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm gonna play through the pain and Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I have fibromyalgia and I'm really suffering. I'm totally different and both showed this like, version of like how to get through what you're getting through. But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing you're not worthwhile and I know you struggled with that too. What can you say about that or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through like living life? - Well, when I saw five foot two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most emotional. I remember I just kept rewinding 'cause I'd never seen these things on camera before and I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes so they'd be like, well, this one's defective. We want a new one. I mean, yeah. And Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't, that's right. The approach, I mean, we maybe can speak about things a little bit, maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud that one's defective. We want a new one, but the behavior remains the same. And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of what of the right way to spend your time of how to prioritize your health versus the work, your health versus a press junket didn't have to be mine. Remember once before a job, them going, so how long before you get sick, do you usually know that it's gonna happen? And I was like, never even occurred to me that I was like, some time, I don't know. Like when it starts, I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost schedule your body's collapse. - Well, it's funny you say that because my brain, like what this book did, is it like, which I think good writing does, is it makes you think about like, wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is what I wanna do to extend the conversation is be like, ask people, how do they do their system? How do they work it? So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful. - I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only, and it's that part of being young and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on. Like it took me a while to go, just because somebody shows up in, just showered in blue lemon, sweat, clothes with a big cup of coffee. For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in a thing. - In a thing. - In a Yeti cup and got to work and was like, "Oh, 'cause I like to do this in the morning." - And he was always a blowout. Like I was like, when did you get a blowout? Like who did it? Who did it? - Where did you go? - Did you go to drive bar? Did you do your self? - Did you have someone who comes to your house? - It's day three of your blowout. These are, there's your questions. - These things are really looking like, "I will never be." - Everybody has it. - Everybody has it. We all have it, and then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing. Like I keep a really psychotic to-do list. I have this very specific to-do list system that is, I won't belabor, but it's taken years for me to find a system that works. I love my system. When I finish something, I put the trophy emoji next. - So for a little treat? - Yeah. - A little my little treat, and then you did a trick? - Yeah, I did a trick and I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen. And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says, "Actually, I'm not gonna do that anymore." That's off the list or whatever. - I do wanna talk about your bed. You create so much in your bed. You love your bed. - I love my bed. - I love my bed too. I'm worried about your sleep. Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl? So this is gonna be involved a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital terror. We have a congenital, it's something where sleep and death get equated early in childhood. My father had it. My mother had it. Maybe that's why they fell in love. And they passed it down to my brother and me. And as children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4 p.m. So still today. - A lot of people have that that they are very stressed about the fact that they have a good sleep. - Yeah, it would be, I would start around 3 p.m. to start to say, "Okay, what time do you think "we're gonna put the jamas on? "What do you think we're gonna do right before bed?" Then my father would have to tell me, he'd have to take me and I'd say, is it a sock night or is it not a sock night? 'Cause I was concerned, maybe I'll wake up in the night with cold feet, but wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm? Then, I miss Genoa's Firmens get going. It's the greatest. Then, I would say, can you tell me a list of things we're gonna do tomorrow to look forward to? Because I thought if I didn't have things to look forward to, I might just pass away in my sleep. - Yeah. - I would love to sleep, train you. - I would love to have a week in your house. I'm gonna wear a nurse's uniform. (laughing) - Do you know what I'm gonna do? - And I'm gonna go, and you're gonna start your business. You're gonna say, what kind of socks? - I'm gonna go, no, no, no, no, no, no. - Chop chop. - If I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of books, the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the, no, I mean, twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face. - Let's stop it, rabbits. (laughing) - Let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits if they can sleep next to the bed. - Well, the rabbits also, you know, the thing about rabbits is they're, I don't know the thing about rabbits. - Lack of horse. You don't know the things that they are crepuscular, which means that they are most awake at dawn and at dusk. - I might have an old-fashioned version of sleep, but I do think that one of the best things I did for myself is make sleep hygiene as important as other things. - Wow. - And it was very hard because like you, I grew up with a total like, I wanted to stay up late. Like, I would have a TV in my room, like. Seeing a plate felt like something I was good at. I felt the same way. And I had SNL, and I was a vampire. And it was like, I know my pain when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight. And so I would, my parents, my bedroom was downstate. We lived in this weird place in Brooklyn that was above a garage, but there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room. And the landlord, JP, had left his like single guy. It was like the most modern TV of 1993. Right. And I would plug in the headphones from American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL. Olena, so sad. I mean, comedy is so important, you're not sad. I mean, that's like an athlete, like just shoot a hoop in their driveway. I graduated from high school in 2004. So one thing that I did was at St. Anne's, we had student IDs. And the rule was that you could not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were, was it 16 or 18? I don't, it was, I think it might be 16. It was 16. So I was 15 and wanted to go. Yeah. So I came up with a scheme which was I was gonna go to get, act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong. And then have them move the year. And they did. And then I fell too guilty and I confessed before I could ever go. I was like, started to think about this work too well. Yeah, this was too, I could get addicted to this. And pretty soon, I'm gonna be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection. I can't be on this path. I mean, you're speaking of, like the fact that 2001 is 25 years ago is insane. It's insane. There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work. Do you think it is like this? I mean, it's like people, right? I don't know, like people attach it to this bigger idea of nostalgia. But what, do you have a sense now of like what it is? Like why people are going back to that show to you to the feeling that that time, do you have a sense of why? Well, you know, it's interesting because I know that a lot, I don't equate my early 20s and I think when people read the book, they'll understand why. With the exception of some very specific moments, I don't like equate my early 20s with like a sense of jubilance and freedom just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting and it's cozy. Like when I wanna be cozy, I watch parks and recreation or as my husband calls it parks and recreations. Oh, it's an S. Yeah, and he, and once I said, you know there's no S on the end, you're wrong. But I'm, and I knew that I, I think maybe I don't know this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set. And it was a big thing for me to be like, okay, I'm gonna leave her with you. Not with this dog center, let's see what happens. And I checked, texted to check in and he said, we're just watching some parks and recreations. She loves John Ralphio. And I went, okay, that's a good guy. Okay, you can stay, you can stay. I would watch parks and recreations to relax, but the idea that, and to me, I'm like, girls is like a stress bomb. Like it's like watching, let's talk about this. I agree, the girls can be a stress bomb. It's a stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like 10 minutes to disseminate a bomb. Like it's not really, really relaxes people. And I think it reminds them of a time. It reminds them of time in their lives and a time in the character's lives. And a lot of people say to me, people who are on the more 40 end will go like, I lived in, I lived off the Laura Marstopp when I was 23 with my two best friends from college. And you know, now one of them's dead and one of them's a Republican. You know, like they are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them. And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends like that. - Yeah. - And also all I ever wanted to make. I always was sad, like I'm never gonna be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone want to curl up. And but so if it is that for people, I also think there's something, even though the show does have social media, even though there's like a conversation in the first episode, and I've never watched girls since we finished. So I, - Really? You've never done a rewatch. - I've never done a rewatch. I've never done a rewatch. I just, I guess I'm always thinking, and I don't do for watch things. - I've rewatched Parks and Rec with Parks and Recreations with my kids. - They love it. - I would suggest someday you do because-- - Rewatch Parks and Recreations I have. - Rewatch girls because it is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself. Like you just, all the stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away, at least it did for me and you just remembered the feeling. Like I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win? Like I couldn't even remember the plot, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes. Like it was like a body feeling. And it made me feel grateful. - It made me feel really grateful. - Nice. - And I wonder, I would wish that for you. I don't know if you will feel that, but maybe will. - I mean, I love those people and I love that. And there were so many wonderful times. You know, after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like, he was like, he was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun. And then I read it and it didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no, when we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my, like that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I was felt like I could open a door into being those people. And I remember feeling like this, and it's the only time I really felt this way because I'm not like a mystical actor in this way, but I just, I felt like my, whatever Lena's problems are, go away and like the problems of these particular people, which feel sort of light and inconsequential at the end of the day took over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was linked, hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it. Yeah, that was hard. - What do you think people who write about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it? - At the time, it was like, there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all. Like that we were, thought that we were making, like, you know, a pressing film about like the concerns of America's neediest population. And that we just were really missing the mark. And then there were the people who thought that I was like so in on the joke that I remember they're being conservative commentators who were like, actually, this is a, you know, this is, she's, she's curing, yeah, woke millennials, and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally, seriously. And we totally get what's funny about it. People underestimate young women all the time. - Yes. - And it was funny. It was like, if they, people didn't like the show, it was my fault. If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else. It was just, it was, and really looking back, now if somebody, people come to me a lot and we'll go, like someone saying something mean about me on the internet, what do I do? And I was like, just don't look at it. Yeah, just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice that. - Of course. - That's why it's, when you were asking like, how do you like talking about the book? How do you not like talking about the book? And then I circled away from that. I'm going to circle back. Is sometimes people will ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about you? Or why do you think, why do you think people had a strong reaction when I go, it's ultimately, like that really my problem. - Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business. How about that? That's the way people think about you is none of your business. - It's not your business though. - It's not your business. It's truly not, it's just like, and that is, I'm checking into the hotel under the name Nanya Business. - Nanya Business. - Also a book written by one side. (laughing) - When you were writing the characters for girls, did you think it was a show about female friendship? - I thought, yes. I thought it was a show about female friendship, but I was like, it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually, until you figure out what is and isn't your business, it's a thorny torture escape. - Yeah. - Because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them, and part of why I'm obsessed with them is also because I'm scared of them, 'cause they're too smart. - I see. - Do you know what I mean? You might not kind of feel that way. - I don't, I don't, but I understand what you mean because it is, I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that complicated people, interesting complicated people often provide complicated, interesting relationships. And there were times when I would watch girls and be like, are they friends? The answer was often, no, yeah. - I mean, they were holding on to an idea, part of the reason they were friends, because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feelings they give them, but because they get to feel superior, or they get to feel, they get to feel like, in contrast, they're winning, or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is, and you're still like, you're not, when you're in your 20s, you're not even that far out of high school. - Yeah. - You don't even, even yet, let go of all that stuff. And now, this isn't saying, I have amazing, my female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them, but I also, there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other and that can feel. very exposing. And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships have, there was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while. Like I haven't had to, remember once having a fight with a girlfriend in, in our 20s and we were like going back and forth in these long points to point. Now I will not, if someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points. Like I'm not going, you're not bolding the points and then here are my responses to the point. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to make notes on your doc you sign and send it back to you. That's not what's happening. But we were doing that. And I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outrage. And he was like, I don't even know what I mean. It's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition. And you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend. If you feel this way. And then, and then moments later everyone's apologizing going, I didn't mean any of that. And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expend on this creative writing exercise. Like the kids say, like the kids say, say less. Say less, say less. Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean, have you ever seen that mean where someone's like congrats or sorry that happened to you? I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that. Every plaza on the set of parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone and she would erase it and then just right now. And I'd be like, Oh, I could say that too. I could just say. Well, there's a big thing which is my brother taught me. He's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you. It's funny. Your parents, you know, you talk about in your book, you have really successful artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about it like in the rooms that are small. I mean, there's like high fashion. Yeah. There's like hyper intellectualism. There's and there's the art world that they both live in. It can only get smaller if you're like, well, the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College, where Jenna and I went is pretty nice improv contact dance, babe, that is wide open. Everybody can get in there. Do you just got to keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time? I would such a purve fest. Like anything that's like, we have to touch each other. You're like, why? I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin because I used to do like a column for the Oberlin grape shout out to all you great writers out there. And it was like, I'd go and try things on campus. You would have thought of them. Oh, I'm going to do cap-aware today. And I went and did contact improv. And basically my thesis was like, perverts. Like that was I left because yeah, I remember they were like, okay, now everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice. And everyone was like, pants, you know, it was right away. I mean, that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like, perverts. Yeah. But before we get off girls, when now we're getting into the weeds, but not when Jessa betrayed Hannah. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard for a lot of people. That was hard for Jamehman. I didn't want to do it. I bet Jamehman was like, don't make me do this. I bet it's a real villain move. But what it allowed us, I think in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet. And also it was just like the end of a cycle of story. I also think that part of the reason that the way she justified that to herself in the moment is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me. And she might have had Hannah might have this idea, here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex boyfriend, and they don't, I don't know, you know, they don't sleep with your ex boyfriend. They don't push you in front of a car and everything else is fair game. And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all these other little moves and the other thing is because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power. She doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings. Yes. She's, the world is happening to her. Yes. And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world. And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing and just good moving the story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah. Like that's who we were caring about. It was really nice. And it's, you know, Jemima and I have been friends since we were 11. So it was, it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together. Because often we were just, you know, in the same room at the same party, raising our eyebrows at the same thing. And what we got to do those big chunky emotional scenes together, it was amazing. But I do remember her when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed for the first time. She was really, I could see her panic because it went against every instinct she had about behavior. And I had to say, I'm not, he's not really my boyfriend. I'm not really going to get mad at you. Right. He's actually just acting acting. And so are we at the end of the day. Yeah. Neither of us kissed each other's ex-boyfriend. So we're going to be fine. Yeah. And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex-boyfriend, we'd be fine. And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight. Patagonia. Put on this Patagonia. And we're going to be fine. Yeah. Okay. I want to get your hot takes in a few things. Okay. These are completely random things. But I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about. Okay. Great. And there's no right or wrong. Okay. TikTok. I spent your amazing on TikTok. And thank you. Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks. My algorithm knows who I am, obviously. And a lot of them are from your bed. But what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure, like everything in the culture is changing. But what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like-minded folks and to find people who are, I always see like a woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends and found your friends. And also, I think there's just good comedy there. There's, I think there's good comedy. There's good comedy. There's good educational content. And, you know, I don't want to be watching someone like sell me a frackle stick. But I do. I mean, my TikTok algorithm when I still had it was women with pigs. And I like when there's us, we're in Australia, where sex work is legal. I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences. And, and their money counters. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I love that. I also like the women who work at like exotic dancing clubs and are at the front. And they're, and you don't see the patrons, but you see them deciding who's going to come in. Yes. I love that, too. I love women at work. When I love women at work in all way, I love, and sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic. And then you see it like a little taste of, I mean, this is what it's like, a little taste of fame makes us all sick. It's not. It's very true. Shorter question, Diet Coke, yes or no? Do you know the kids have been calling it fridge six? Yeah. Love it. I love Diet Coke. I don't think it's an everyday thing. Agreed. My mother. It's a treat. It's a treat. If you do a trick, do a trick. You get a Diet Coke. When I, my mother, every time she gets a mammogram, and since she was 40, she, every time she gets a mammogram, she gets a New York City hotdog and a Diet Coke. What are hot dog and a Diet Coke? So it's her. Yes. She has the full carcinogens package after a successful mammogram. Meg Salter. Oh, Mary. Oh, I'm so excited. We love Meg. I'm so excited. I mean, just what we will be that, I mean, that show, that woman. She's such a funny, special person. She is, she is hilarious. I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times. Also, I'm loving how she's interacting, talking about like, fame and she found something really interesting. At least favorite current fashion trend. I've always said that my style is like, bratty five year old with a credit card. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. You feel that, right? Like it's like a girl who's like, my dad gave me this and she said, I can get whatever I want. And then you, you just can because so many of the things that also because my parents have good taste when I was a kid a lot was like, you don't want that. That's not, you don't want that sparkly leopard, velour, tunic and matching like warmers. Yes, I do. And now I'm an adult who makes my own money and I can have it. I get that vibe from you. It's, you're very high low in that way. Like I love that. You like, you know, a ton about really, like a esteemed artist and writers. And then also you like, you don't feel like a snob about it. It's hard because you know, New York kids can sometimes like have access to stuff. And then, you know, people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room. And you do not give off that vibe. I'm glad. I like, I mean, I love, I love reality television. Yeah. Do you still love reality television? I don't, but I, I, do you still know, I wasn't a housewife's fan because it, it fucks with my nervous system a little bit. I get it. The way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other. I do enjoy a below deck. I enjoy a, um, jobs based. We like jobs based programming. And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing. There's a lot of like, would you like to watch this Um, this very, uh, well-decorated female historian take you on a tour of the oldest castle in Wales, Mary Beard, we live for you. And or would we like to, you know, I mean, Great British Bakeoffs an example. Incredible. But that's not reality. In my opinion. Well, I, I mean, I guess it's real. I got asked to go on the Great British Bakeoff. They do like a charity celebrity bakeoff. And I went, I don't cook. I do. I don't, I don't cook. I don't clean. Let me tell you how I got that ring. I don't have anything to do with it. But I thought, okay, like this is a, surely they can't expect that much of us. They're not calling in, they're not calling in, you know, chefs. They're calling in actors and writers. They end, they put me on the phone with a producer and said, like, the first challenge is going to be a crumpet challenge. You are supposed to make a crumpet that expresses who you are. Okay. So I was like, well, I have British short hair cats. They're gray. I could do a crumpet that had like some great coloring and then do ears on it and then eyes. And it could be like my cats as a crumpet. And they went, okay, great. So maybe almond butter could be the eyes. And you could do some sort of like a raspberry jam for the mouth. Paul obviously does not, is not comfortable with any store bought jams or butters. So, but we have a really simple pistachio butter recipe that we could send you. And I actually have a great short book on making jam. Wait, what? And I was like making jam. Making jam. And they said, you know, I've never cooked a crumpet. Is there some like basics? Do I have to go back to some basics? And they said, well, there's a great book called The Science of Baking, which we can send you, which kind of. And then I started to describe it to Michael, my business partner, he's like, have you lost your ever loving mind? Like, are you about to put in, and then I was going to go over to my friend Rose's sister's house, because she bakes. And she was like, I actually do have a familial crumpet recipe that if you try it nine, ten times. And then they said to me, um, ovens go on at 8 a.m. and off at 6 p.m. And I made some joke. And I was like, well, at least you guys will help me turn those on. They was like, Oh, no, we're not allowed to touch any of the knobs. And I just went, we're out of here. We're out of here. I'm sorry. I love that for you. I love that. No, for you. That's a good no. And I, because I love to try to become an expert at something really quickly, but this was beyond, this was way beyond anything that I could handle. Plus the tension of Paul not being happy. Paul's comfortable. Those are not comfortable with those store bought jams. Yeah, those husky eyes, shooting lasers at you because of the jam. Okay. The new moon album. Do you love it? Of course. I love everything that Luna touches theme parks. Do you love them? I do not think that I have been to a theme park in adulthood. And I, and it may be one of the only things I'm comfortable saying, I won't do again before I die. You. I agree. I, I, I, I respectfully decline. Um, would you ever have a robot in your house? I think that my, I think that I would defect onto an anthropomorphized the robot too much. Sorry, what was the word you used? Kaffat. Whoa. Tell me if I used it correctly. Incredible. New word alert. Kaffat. Kaffat. Tell me what you're seeing. Kaffat. I'm not even going to define. I'm just going to, it's a verb that means to invest mental or emotional energy in a person object or idea. So like, um, anthropomorphize. Yes. I would anthropomorphize the robot. They often therapists will sometimes say like if you are projecting on, they'll say like we've had a, we've had an episode of Kaffat Cess. Would you have a robot in your house? I would. But I feel like I'd be able to control it until I, until it killed me. Okay. And then, um, you, we've talked about, um, my producer, Jenna, who you have known for 20 years. Yes, I have. I have a question. What was Jenna like when she was 23? Jenna was cool. And like, Jenna still is. Jenna was like a cool, hot hipster who knew, who lived in Brooklyn and knew all in like the one of, one of the, I was still in college and went to go hang out at Jenna's apartment. It was on the second floor on Atlantic Avenue. Kind of cracked right. And it was on the second floor in Atlantic Avenue. And she had like, like a rustic boat wheel that they had upcycled and used as like a piece of wall ornamentation. And Jenna wore like one of those little, um, you know, bike messenger hats. Sure. And I will always remember, I'm an embarrassed Jenna right now. I, Jenna had a girlfriend. I don't want to upset anyone, but Jenna had a girlfriend. And Jenna can always cut this. Jenna always can cut this if she wants. She's the boss. Yeah. And I love that like, I used to get to sleep in a room. Like, we had like multiple twin beds. For some reason, there was like a room with three twin beds and only two girls at Oberlin at Oberlin. We had a room for somehow we'd gotten lucky. And so I pushed two of them together to make a queen. And then somehow ended up like in my queen with Jenna having to share the single with somebody else. And interesting. And I was sort of like, you guys share the single? Share the single girlfriend. And I, and I remember going saying some, using some insane logic. Like, listen, you guys should feel really lucky. You have each other. And what I have is this queen that I made out of two shitty old mattresses. Hold on. So just to go over it. Yeah. When you were in Jennifer in college, Jenna was sharing a single with her girlfriend, who was my roommate. And you had a queen. Yeah. That I'd made out of two mattresses, feeling still victimized by that. Correct. Yeah. I was like, guys, you know, it's like kind of hard to just be sitting here as a single person, having a look at all this love. I've been through a lot. And so, and also you might remember that I had to go home from college last year because I have chronic mono. So, so just think about other people. Yeah. I shouldn't have done that, Jenna. And I'm sorry. Looking back, it's deranged behavior. But we only have to make things make sense to us really. That's right. Okay. And then let's talk about good sex because so we have this thing. Yeah. Good sex is a new movie coming out on Netflix. It's a romcom that you wrote and directed. Yeah. Natalie Porman spoke to us today. We got a question from Natalie and who spoke so beautifully about you as a person and as a director said something that I just like I will really think about and take with me, which is that she felt very seen by you when she was being directed by you. Of course, she felt like you set a tone for not only like everyone on the set, but you were paying very close attention to what people were doing. And also just like gave specific feedback when you liked something, which I know sounds like though, but it's not always the case because we are so we have such a bias to talk about what it needs to be fixed. And we kind of forget to say like, Oh, that was good. I liked that good job. Well, it's funny. It's been for say I'm so Natalie Porman is, I mean, she was such a big deal to me when I was a youth. She was just the cool girls, cool girl. The, the, the, the, the, the humans on Janu, the everything. And, and meeting her was one of the rare moments where I really kind of got tongue tied and goofy. And then she makes you feel really cozy, but getting to work with her and getting to know her and getting to know her magic and her friendship with Rashida, which has existed for like almost 30 years. Yeah. She's just, she's everything you think she would be, but I feel like, so you know how we were saying like women are so good at things that they're then punished for it. Yeah. Like they people go, well, you did that. Well, I guess you'll just keep doing that well and we'll lay more on you. Natalie is such a good actress. And she said you could actress even in moments where she doesn't have to be. She exudes it like you have a shot that's like her on a telephoto lens crossing the street in traffic. And she does something interesting with her face. So I was like, I think that almost people don't want to say you're the most amazing actress I've ever seen because they feel like it makes them look like ghost or dorky or they should just be accepting. This is reality. But every single day I went, that's insane what you're doing right now. And watching her be goofy is so fun. She is a big goof. She's a goof. Well, she had a great goofy question for you. I'm so excited. She said, and it's funny because we talked about this. We started talking about this. She said, what is the best pig to adopt? She said you have pet pigs. We talked about pigs. She wants to know what kind of pigs we got into she's in Paris. Apparently there's a wild boar situation. There's a wild boar situation. I don't want to get political. Yeah. But we and she knows that she's not ready to be a pig parent. Yes, where she is. She's a rabbit parent, but she's not ready to be a pig parent. And she's a really good dog mom too. But yeah, but what's the best kind of pick? Yes, to adopt. Well, in your opinion. Okay, so obviously there's so here's something for anyone at home to know if you're thinking about adopting a pig. Very good. If someone tells you that you are getting a teacup pig, you are not. If someone tells you you're getting a mini pig, you're not. A mini pig is any pig that's under 500 pounds is what is classed as a mini pig. Very important to know. Unlike a farm. So which can go up to like 1400 pounds. And also pigs, unlike dogs, like you don't have a sense from their piglet size of how big they're going to be because they keep growing until they're five. Wow. And they also, another fact about pigs, not two sets of teeth, three sets of teeth. They lose their teeth twice. And I've been saving all those pig teeth for a rainy day to spend a nightmare, some kind of nightmare scenario. That's exactly right. Two of the pigs that are in my life are Meshon pigs. Meshon pigs are, they're now actually classed as critically endangered, but they are a, they are a Chinese species that dates back at least 5,000 years. They look like they're famous for few things. amazing mothers. They have huge litters up to like 17 or 18 at a time and they mother them expertly. - Oh dear. - They look like little elephants. - Wow. - And they don't root a lot and they don't, they don't, the forage not root and they're just chillers. And so if you have space, you might think, let me go with the smallest pig that will be easiest, but actually a Meshon is a great cozy. I think really good beginner, beginner pig. - A beginner pig. - A beginner pig. - A beginner pig. - The other thing is that I've learned is a solo pig's not nice. - I know. - Because solo animal's in general. - A solo animal's in general, but a dog seems like they can get a lot of what they need. From like, you're my buddy, you're my buddy. I'm gonna go out and see my buddies. Pigs can't just, because they're very territorial, they can't just like casually have plate-aids with another pig. They either need to be in a life together. And when I got my first pig victor who I thought would be a solo pig, he was talking all day long. And I just thought, I'm trying buddy, but I don't know what you're saying. And so that's why we got Cherry. - Cherry and Victor. - Yeah. - And it was an arranged marriage. - It feels like Daniel Simon play. - He was an arranged marriage. We didn't know how it would go. And what I loved is at the first day that we let them, he went over and kind of started to like, get a little aggro with her. And she bit him on the butt, as hard as she could him from that day on. He was like, it's your, it's your scene lady. Like he's. - It's like a rom-com. - Yeah, it was a pig rom-com. And now she spends a lot of time sitting on his head. - Oh, and she took off her little pig glasses and he was like, you're beautiful. (laughing) - Lena Dunham. - Amy Poher. - So lovely to talk to you. I'm so happy you could come. Thank you. - Amy Poher. - Congratulations on your movie. Congratulations on your book. - Thank you. - And you know, we've known each other for a very long time. It's really, really nice to see you again. - It's really nice to see you too. - You are a really, I mean, it's a well-known, I said to someone that I was going to podcast and I was like, and Salah, she's a good hang. - Thanks, dude. - We're back at ya. - Happy 40th, babe. - Thanks. - Come on over to the other side. It's so great over here. - Whoo. (clapping) - Thank you so much, Lena Dunham. Just so smart and interesting. Such a great discussion with you. And thank you so much for being here. And, you know, Lena is a New York City kid and we're gearing up for a New York City summer and for all you people headed to Broadway. I want to use this polar plunge to remind you that three champions, three comedic giants are on Broadway right now as we speak. And that is on a gas diar in Shmigadoon. That is Maya Rudolph and Omarie and that is Rachel Dhratch in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. So get your tickets, babe, because this kind of event only happens every hundred years when all of these beautiful women are on stage at the same time and aren't we lucky to be alive when that's happening. So congratulations, ladies and congratulations to you. If you've got a chance to see them and thank you for listening and see you soon. Bye. (clapping) - You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Burman and me, Amy Poler. The show is produced by the ringer and paper kite. For the ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spalane, Kaya McMollan, and Alayah Zeneres. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Burman. Original music by Amy Miles. ♪ All I ever wanted was a really good hang ♪