LEINSTER BACK IN A EUROPEAN FINAL! | Andy Dunne: "A guttural instinct about that performance that you'd fall in love with"

Off the ball, Daily. A home for your favourite podcasts from Off the Ball. He still has that desire and appetite. He'll be back. You know, I mean, and he's a fit. You know, he looks after him, so he runs a lot. He looks after his body, so he'll be back again. He wants that egg desperately, I think, you know, inside. Even though he sort of talks it off a little bit, but I think he wants a desperate. Subscribe to the Off the Ball Daily Podcast feed right now. Rugby on Off the Ball. With Bank of Ireland, a proud sponsor of Connacht, Lensder, Monster and Ulster Rugby. Never stop competing. All right, we are here in an empty of either stadium where Lensder have just booked their ticket to Bilbao, where the 29-25 win over to Laugh, I'm here with Andy Don, Andy. I actually don't even know where to start. Was your heart in your mouth in those last 10 minutes as mine was? Absolutely, I'm on with the rest of the stadium. I think, for a semi. that's the joyous sport. Like a semi-final, why would you want it to be easy? It was torture. I mean, the first half was a classic Lensder performance of recent years, where they should have been 15, 20 points clear. They left a couple of tries behind them, but they were playing with real excellence and threat. And then somehow to go in, 14, 11, and 13 men against 15, it looked like one of these, unfortunately, characteristic implosions. Then they pulled away in the second half and I actually said it live on air, I think it's all over at 29-11. And I was wrong, I was, I was wrong, I was again. So this Lensder team loved to give people heart attacks, particularly in knock out games. But nobody cares when you win. So I think there's a lot to be said for the character of the group after last year, semi-final. And again, those nail-biting last five minutes where nobody could barely watch, but they got it. They got it on. Yeah. That first half was chaotic. It talked to me about some of the refereeing decisions. I think the two yellow cards, fair enough, you could see where they came from. But then moments later when Rico, Yuani, gets a high hit enough for him to go off for a HIA, you're thinking, is there a little bit of an imbalance here? I've bizarre imbalance because they were identical. I mean, it is either a head collision of the Rizant and we've got the technology. It shows the head collision. I think ironically Luke Pierce was consistent for the first two, which you applaud and say the onus is on the tagler to lower their body height. And even if we saw it in the six nations, I think it was one of the recent game, once to where Craig Casey, even at his small height, took a hit to the face, got a nose bleed, there was no intent, but he got yellow carded. And if you're going by the letter, the law, that's appropriate. It, the onus is on the tagler to drop their height. So we got two in a row and lo and behold, four minutes later, Charles Oliver gets a head contact with Yuani and he glasses over it like it didn't happen. So that was really disappointing from a refereeing point of view, from a consistency point of view. Yeah, and from a lense to a point of view, they'd be raging. Yeah, it must have been really frustrating for them. How impressive is it with that in mind how they came out in the start of the second half? 13 men dominated the first 10 minutes, guy ringers try, obviously, and they just looked calm. They looked like this wasn't going to faze them. Well, if you ever, it was phenomenal. If you ever want a barameater of, you know, the spirit in a group, how did they perform when at 14 or 13 men? Like, the Kaelin Darius, the physical work he got through, Tom Clarke's and two a man up front, Dan, she in multiple carries in the first five, six minutes, multiple carries, tankless carries into traffic, winning collisions, they no right to win. And it was, when Ringrose got that try, he's a man of, I suppose, contained emotion. It was a raw, aggressive celebration into the fans. It was a statement of intent from that group to say, "Well, we refuse to lie down." And what we've seen in Lancetown, fortunately, in recent years, is not a surrender, but an implosion. It might have been psychologically or tactically or technically. But they really had put it up to them physically there with 13 men. And to be as dominant as they were in that first 10 minutes, I think is the type of thing permeates through the group. Bills belief shows them that, you know, when they're down in numbers and down on key personnel, that they had the capacity to come through. So I thought that was a massive statement for that group in the first 10 minutes. I think that's a really interesting point because passion is something that sometimes we don't see on the faces of the Lens of Players as much as maybe the ones to play as to, it's often like them against the world and they're screaming for every decision. But when Kaelin Darius crossed over for his try as well, he was screaming on the ground. He really saw how much it meant them. It feels to me like the difficulties of the season, the difficulties of this game. It's almost unlocked another level to Lens of that's not just their class on the pitch, but they have this like intense emotion and need to get through this. Yeah, there was a there was a guttural kind of instinct about that performance that you'd fall in love with, you know, as a fan because they're so hard at times to like in the last few years. You want to see them do their best and when they've been far better than other teams in semis or finals, they've had a complete reversal. But I think this adversity they've gone through can be the making of a group and I think I haven't seen a Lens of Team play with that level of hard in a long, long time. I thought it was really, it was just inspiration at times and that's like enough. For sure, it was fraught with mistakes. I still have issues around the defence and it looks like half the team at times have commitment issues to that defence because it's a massively risky operational system that they don't use half the time when they're with, you know, when half of those players are with Ireland. So it's just been a really difficult road for them. Yet they've wound up in the European Cup Final and you know, they will be underdogs rightly so, which I think will actually suit the group. Do you? So do you think I don't want to ask is hard enough because obviously they had moments of really good rugby as well, but as you said, moments of not so good rugby and a lot of mistakes and ill discipline. Will it be enough? No, I know, hard alone, I don't think is ever enough at this level. I think it can be make a difference when you're going well or reasonably well strategically and technically. Obviously need a bit of luck, but you can't forget that that's, you know, the starting team there is basically the Ireland starting forward pack and you could argue five, six of the Ireland backline. When they put on this lanceture shirt and they play different systems in recent years, they just haven't fired to the level they have within the Ireland camp. And you know, that's been a question mark too, but what they also have then and those same players is the learned experience of going to knock out rugby and losing. And if you can put a psychological positive spin on that, that gives resilience, that gives a sense of what we've been here before we know what to do. I think there was an element to that today to learn fast, majority of that group haven't played in the European Cup semi-finals, so even though they nearly won it in the last few minutes, lanceture somehow scraped through and had the where we're all to do it. So there's something to be gained from learned experience and obviously the personnel have huge individual experience at the highest level collectively. And in terms of cohesion, lanceture just still not quite there for whatever reason. You mentioned the defence. It's a funny one that at times it looks like they're fully committed and they're racing out of the line and I think it was Tommy O'Brien in the opening half like huge hiss and it works. And then other times they're kind of backing off and looking around them and all of a sudden their space at wide. Did it malfunction today again or was there moments that it was working in the way that we think Nina by once or two? Well, there's no look, there's no such thing as a perfect defensive system. All defensive systems will malfunction. I think this defensive system can malfunction more frequently than it should and because it's dependent on slowing down opposition ball. That's when it really works. If you can slow down opposition ball at the breakdown, you get your defensive line set. You need an extra second or two for that and then the wider defenders like Tommy O'Brien or Gary Ringrose, they decide the timing of the defence. They lead the line in this kind of I suppose reverse of the typical defence. So that requires a lot of work constantly. It requires work at the breakdown and what you then see is it looks to come to fruition out wide. You see Tommy O'Brien smashing someone man and ball. As soon as Tidews got too long, got momentum. You're in massive trouble. You can't implement that defence on the back foot and I think that's the problem because you can't maintain front foot play against these quality sides for 80 minutes. Now Tidews have used that defence in one two world cups so you can say look it clearly works. But you've got a group and a personnel in Tidews who are stronger up front, probably than anyone else. They're better at slow and ball than at breakdowns and so that leans into South African having this dominant defence more often because they're on the back foot less often. There's a danger where Lancet have fallen between stools of the last year and a half trying to implement that. And obviously, the danger would have for the Irish team or three quarters of the Irish team having to dance and hurdle between one defensive system to another in major, majorly intense competitions. So I think, yeah, it's your right. A bit like their attack. In patches, it looks glorious and in defense, it looks impenetrable until it doesn't and they look really vulnerable. So there again, what way do you want your sport to be? It was massive entertainment. So tricky. There's three weeks I think now until Bilbao and they'll obviously continue to play the system within the U.S.E. games in the build up to done. Do you think that'll help just more time in the saddle playing this shape? You know, at this stage, I think there's enough mileage to play the system. The familiarity helps and repetition helps, but I think the key thing against a Bordeaux team is you. Or Bath. Or Bath, yeah. True, true. My bias there. I can't see Bath beating Bordeaux in Bordeaux, but I, Dordos teams have unique playmakers in Jalibair and Finn Russell. Both will be very attuned to playing against that rush to fend some picking at a part. So I'd have grave concerns about that defense going into a final against Eider Dordos playmaking Tens who love that defense because it's a defense that suits impulsive and instinctive Tens because the gaps open up and they read them as they see them. So I'd have grave concerns around it. Yeah, I don't think three more weeks in the URC reponate will help. What will help is maybe an intensity at the breakdown to slow down either Bath or Bordeaux. Enough to make that defense less vulnerable. Okay, interesting. I mean, we'll see tomorrow whether it's Bath or Bordeaux that they go up against. Speaking of Tens, Harry Byrne today obviously a huge opportunity for him getting selected. He had moments, he controlled things well, but he looks nervous, is that fair to say? Absolutely. I think Biggest Game was career. It's been well documented that the journey in Lancet are not being a linear one from. Brave moved to Bristol last year. It kind of certainly not the, what you call it the road, less travelled for a lot of Lancet players have had five to ten year careers as background players and maybe not getting the type of rugby exposure that have liked. So Harry talked to Bordeaux by the horns and Lancet agreed to it and collectively looks like a good decision. He's I think deservedly become first choice. But in the biggest game of his career today and it's very normal and natural this could happen is tendency to overplay your hand, to want to prove himself. Kick and restart. I think it nearly landed on the trident. I think that was a bit of adrenaline. Striking the ball beautifully but not quite on target. It doesn't make any difference. It's the key is it's going through the post. For him it's probably compared to recent weeks not the performance he'd have liked. I think he was kicking around 89% accuracy in Europe so he didn't match that today. His all-around play just wasn't consistent enough and that can give a calming effect to any team but there's still a lot of quality there. You can see some beautiful distribution off both sides, some really nice running play. His play's taking strike. The actual quality of the strike is excellent. 89% that would be slightly lower now after today. That success rate but I think all-around he's in a strong place. I think deservedly will start for Lentzren the final again but he'll be very well aware of the things he can improve. Yeah, as you said, if the strike is good when it misses and it was only by inches the couple of times he missed, what goes wrong there then? Is it just a lap of concentration? No, I don't look okay. A lot of. In fact kicking again. Well, look. It's pretty crucial and in recent years Lentzren chose not kickable penalties. I commented it was almost a headline Lentzren choose kickable penalty and knockout competition. It was almost a headline of its own accord because in recent years they inexplicably turned down kickable penalties. How he certainly goes after that. He's very dominant and he almost gets the ball and he's right in front of Kylindara saying I want to take it. It was 45 meters out to go. I think at what time would have put Lentzren 15 clear or something like that. So the attitude is right. The strike is right. The trajectory is good. The direction is a component part of a golf swing. If he's only missing by half an inch, something's gone wrong in a millisecond in terms of a movement but what you're looking for there is consistency, a strike with kickers and he is consistently striking the ball beautifully. I wouldn't be worried about those couple of misses. Okay, which means it's fixable. A very, very, yep. Okay. And then they attack in general. I thought it was interesting that they were extremely patient in the build up to all their tries. It was. It wasn't maybe the flare we've seen but it was the hard carries getting over the game line and eventually getting over the line. But what they didn't do was what we've seen in recent weeks since the return of Hugo Keenan is a lot of those high balls up in the air with him chasing and getting the return. We didn't see a huge amount of that today. Why do you reckon that was? I'm not sure. Potentially, Jaminé at the back is very good in the air. Arlen went over to Paris and put the ball up in the air to a very dominant back three and got massively punished. And perhaps that was a little bit of scar tissue from Paris back in the spring. A similar mindset going out today, maybe they said, "Look, let's not stick it up to a dominant back three." But their attack was at times very fluid. Like they. Perhaps not the same flare we've come to know, Lancer 4 in recent years, but attacking from multiple angles. There was a lot of zigzag type of attack. They go left, they go right, they go left, they go right. So often teams will go the same way multiple times. So that's difficult to defend when your passing is crisp and the runners are committed and they had both of those things. So I think they left one or two behind them, certainly in that first half when their attack was really excellent. And then they showed a capacity to come down the gears and in the second half and play a bit more pragmatic rugby. One out rugby, one pass plays, win collisions, hold possession, play a bit more of a kicking game. And I think that was appropriate. Yeah, Gibson Park was central to a lot of them. Apart from his little fumble that caused that try to be disallowed, he was excellent today, wasn't he? Yeah, and it's been the same for a number of years when he's on form. Like he can not only decide the outcome of games, but he can decide the tempo of the game while he's in it, which is just an incredible skill set that he has. He appears. I mean parts of his game appear to be still improving given his age. Like his kicking game today, some of the kicks he put in were just phenomenal. Long, long, ranger kicks, low, not high, not box kicks, but like kicks for territory. To get out of. For Lancaster just to get out of there, exit strategies, but 40, 50 meters down the field. So this part of his game still seems to be evolving. He doesn't seem to be losing pace. In fact, he's got the capacity to change pace more often. And again, I think he put his foot on the ball a number of occasions, slowed it down. Maybe when Harry Burn wasn't doing that, he was taking over and saying, "Well, I'm going to control the tempo here." You want that from your half-backs. So yeah, he's characteristically. I'm out of top level, yeah. Yeah, and exactly when maybe Burn is nervous or those aren't coming to have him be able to take over and those kicks as well. I mean, it was incredible. Another couple of players who were ex-in-state, Tommy O'Brien, I feel like he looks exhausted. All of the time, he's like puffing and panting, but then out of nowhere, he grubbers a kick through or makes a huge tackle or a huge break. And it's like, "Where did that even come from?" But he seems to just find the energy somewhere every time. Yeah, he has, I think, a share of the trait with Tyg Burn. They're incredibly fit, but they look tired from the first moment. I think they're just built that way. It's maybe perhaps the body language or the position that they're shoulders, but where you look at Hugo Keenan, who never looks tired. But it's certainly not to take away from Tyg Burn or Tommy O'Brien in terms of their contribution around the field. Oat Farad and Dan Frilandstra today, Tommy. He goes, his work rate is astonishing. He goes looking for the ball. He comes into midfield. He's really added subtlety to his kicking game. I think the chips, very hard to chip at breakneck speed and with control. He can chip with control. He generally, the ball bounces in space. He was unlucky not to get a couple of bounces in his favor. And again, he's got to be Jack Neneber's long last son for that defense because he consistently leads it. He's brave. He hits Man and Ball. And that defense requires bravery. He requires leadership. He requires on wavering commitment. He's got all of those things. So yeah, he's been superb for Lentzter. And on the other wing, do you think Rico has found his place in this lens side? Obviously we saw Robbie go off. But the likelihood would be that Jimmy Osborne stays at 12, Gary stays at 13 if all fully fit. Enrico keeps a spot on that wing. Yeah, I think so. Unlike the kind of Jordy Barish debacle from last year where Jordy didn't start to semi-final. But Jordy was central to Lanzter function at that stage. He was a strategist, tactician, leader, kicker, runner, tackler. I think Ioannis is far more of a strike runner, a wide type of striker. And he is reliant on how well everyone else is playing in order for him to flourish. And I think he's been, he's looked probably less dominant than people hoped this year. But it's probably because he's playing with less than high functioning Lanzter attack for long periods. He's a finisher. I think today when Lanzter were in full flow and attack, he looked pretty strong and made a lot of good decisions. But he'll probably have earned his entire transfer in the couple of tackles he made in the last minute or two. Last cast tackles really to save the game when too long were on the crest of a wave. So yeah, I can see him maintaining his place. I don't know what James Lowe's fitness status is. So I don't forget about him. You could certainly see James Lowe has enough credit in the bank if he's fully fit to get back into a start and line up there. Tough on Robbie Hanshaw today. Lovely to see him fully standing upright and having conversations with people after the game. Having a laugh, I'm sure his family would have been concerned when they see that knockout. But yeah, he's unlikely to feature after a collision like that. I think in HIA protocols he may. But you're not losing any strength when you have someone like Osborne coming in. In fact, he's got that left boot which adds variety in your kicking game. So, and Osborne's been a top quality performer for Lanzter and Ireland for a number of seasons then. Yeah, he was excellent when he came on. Despite maybe a shaky form in the last two games for Lanzter. Just on the injuries as well, speaking to Leo there, obviously Josh van der Flier, a head knock, but he'll go through the HIA protocols. And then Conan the leg, but apparently he's being very bullish saying he's completely fine. So we'll see how that goes. Just to finish up then, the scrum. I think everyone was coming into this game quite nervous about the scrum and too long. A lot of people were saying that that would be an area that too long with target. But Lanzter won a huge amount of penalties off their scrum. It was very impressive. Yeah, and I think it was a concern about the absence of Teg Firlon from a personnel point of view on top of that. Tom Clarkson did a tremendous job. He was dominant against Kyle Sinclair. Kyle Sinclair's star has waned. I suppose over the years he's an older, considered an older player now. And probably at the tail end of his career, Tom Clarkson's young book, you know, Opencoming, hungry, aggressive, technically good, did an excellent job. So I think Lanzter would be delighted with that. He then got the kind of amazing story of Jerry Carr coming in at the wilderness from club games and playing the European. He heavily involved in the European Cup time. He finally, you know, rags to riches story that he rarely see in professional sports. So, you know, again, it speaks volumes. We have all criticized Lanzter over the years for varying reasons. But in terms of the strength and depth they've developed that didn't do by accident. And they've put huge work into the grassroots area of the game. They've got a bigger pool. They've a bigger population, but they've used this to their advantage. And you see that when they've had major injuries and major debt issues and this year getting down into it, you know, you're. All right, and being the same, but Lanzter hugely affected by that. Yes, that's true. just a major. you know, you said I think it was a whole game. If you get into your six-choice looseheads, you know, a lot of teams in the professional area and major trouble there. And Lanzter haven't been compromised. So I think it speaks volumes to the system that goes on and what Lanzter have built over a better 2025 year period. And again, why they got heavily criticized at times, despite all that during another European Cup Final, they're still in the conversation. They have been in the conversation for eight years. And yes, they've not won since 2018, but they haven't gone away. And that shows a lot of bravery. And on the obviously, you're right, the depth has been incredible and Jerry Care has been incredible. But on the other side of that coin, having Andrew Porter back today, was massive for Lanzter. The two breaks he made in that first half, I thought he was in for a try. I was disappointing that he wasn't, but he, despite his yellow card, I think he deservedly. he got mad at the match, didn't he? He was down close, I didn't hear who got it. I think he did, and I was going to say he deservedly did. Even if he didn't, he was down close. He's kind of a talismanic presence, I think at this stage. He looks like a Viking, he's got this distinctive presence. He seems to have a hard to go, he's loved within the group. He's a great ambassador for the game. But he's also, someone who's just been an incredible servant for Irish and Lanzter will be playing both sides of the Scrum. He's gone through his own challenges in terms of the technical issues in the Scrum and repeating fringements for the elbow hitting the floor. He keeps turning up, he keeps fighting, and I thought he was massive today in terms of his influence on the group. Sometimes, perhaps, we're not used to saying about him, but his line breaks. He's using all that power and strength that he has in the gym to be more explosive than we've seen. So he looked down faster on the number of occasions and fit and healthy. So yeah, really fantastic to see. And it must have felt really good for him to not be conceding penalties at the Scrum for once in winning them instead. Yeah, absolutely. We love Lee for him, for Lanzter and Ireland. That story line changes over time, and hopefully it does. I think he's been unfairly targeted at the times. People can, hawkers can bore in at an angle and put on due pressure on him. Nobody is anywhere to go when the hawkers illegally scrumaging against him. But that's, again, that's gamesmanship and teams getting inside referees' heads. They'll see an image that's very clear and they say, "Well, look, he's dropped again." But they might necessarily see illegal scrumaging from the other side. Hopefully, both Lanzter and Ireland can get that narrative out there as well that he's not a weak scrumager, but he's a scrumager that's come under pressure for sure. And hopefully he gets a bit of support and consistency. Just lastly, then, there was a lot of pressure coming into this game on the likes of Leo Gullin, Jack Nina by the whole staff in Lanzter and the players that if they didn't get this one, they were going to be unhappy fans. Do you think this does enough to push that away? Yes, I do. Simply push. I think to get to another European cup final, two teams get there every year. I think is this the fifth one in seven or eight years? I don't think anyone's been to that many finals in Europe. Not getting it across the line is sometimes circumstantial, it's sometimes coming against all-time great teams. Not getting it across the line over in Tottenham a couple of years ago, it was against a great to lose side. And Kieran Frawley's last-minute drop goal in real time before it went to extra time, could have won it. You're talking about tiny, tiny moments, but I think what has to be applauded and cannot be an anyway dismissed is they just keep turning up. This time they're winning with a different defense than three, four years ago. They're winning with a different personnel. They're winning with probably a less stylish attack, but they're there. And I think it takes pressure off any of their management. I think if they'd lost today, there's a different question altogether. I think that I would argue the point, I think they're going over to European cup final with a free shot. There's very few LAN teams have ever gone in, but we're going back to probably 2009 when they never won it before. After that, the expectations have been massive, they have a divine right to be in semi-s and finals and they don't. Look at the quality that's out there in England and France. I think it's to be applauded. Yes, there are problems. Nothing is perfect. No system is perfect, but they're in another final. It's a great point. Hopefully we see them play with a little bit of that freedom and the weight off their shoulders, because I think that would be some spectacle. We'll wait till tomorrow afternoon to see who they take on, but Lensder will be in Bilbao in three weeks time. And you don't thank you very much. My pleasure, thanks. Thank you. Never stop competing.