Leigh Thomas - The Evolving Role of Technology In Business - Mentor

Hosts Introduce Leigh Thomas and Episode Highlights Welcome to Mentor. I'm Marco Batozzi. Speaker 2 And I'm Rachel Ford. Speaker 1 We're the founders of the Zoo London Consulting collective and executive search business and our podcast. Speaker 2 Is all about sharing hard earned wisdom from those people who've been there and done it and are here to guide you. Speaker 1 Insights. You're not going to get any book. Speaker 2 But you can use them in real life. And as always, we've got another goodie today. We've got Lee Thomas. We had a privilege to chat to her. She's got an intriguing journey, starting with the classical ballerina. So listen in to hear that. But mainly just great advice throughout. Wasn't. Speaker 1 It yeah, I mean, she's she's currently VP Emir into it. So lots of big, big businesses, MailChimp and QuickBooks and many others. But you know, she's moved across agencies, she's moved into Meta from agencies. So bold move. Speaker 2 Pintech to adtech to fintech, Yeah, bold moves. And actually though just but very straightforward advice in terms of one of the things and I don't know, do you watch Blue Lights? No. Anyway, anyway, we need to look. So Blue Lights, it's a Northern Ireland TV police programme and as a saying in it take it, one of the one of the officers talks about take a beat. And that just means just take a moment, breathe, don't rush in. And I think just that advice of pause, take a beat really sat with me. Speaker 1 And we've heard it before, but I think it's worth reminding people this idea of be curious. I, I think it's a very underrated, I always say to whenever I do any mentor and it's like see beyond your job, find out what's happening. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think it's also that humility to like know that you don't know everything. So go and find out and and work on it. You know, like do your, do your homework, do your research, and actually even more important, know your numbers. Know your numbers. Speaker 1 That took me right back to the start when we we spoke to Karen Stacey, she said. Speaker 2 She was all about on the numbers, numbers, numbers. Yeah. Leave and did a course, didn't she, around it. So there's advice ringing, ringing to this. No, there's advice brimming, brimming, brimming with advice well before before that. Supporting the Podcast with Viral Tribe Productions Before that, let's have a word about our sponsors, shall we? And then we'll get them in. And so Viral Tribe, really, I mean, our journey has been one where we've, we came into creating a podcast where we didn't have a clue, did we? Let's be. Speaker 2 Honest we did not. Speaker 1 And viral tribe have been. Speaker 2 Call them mentors. Speaker 1 Let's call them mentors. Let's call them. Speaker 2 They've been mentors. They've yeah, because, yeah, they've really shown us a way. They've been really supportive. They've helped us with creative ideas. Obviously the production and promotion and it's, yeah, it's been, they've held our hands. Speaker 1 And, you know, we're part of a stable of some of the, you know, biggest creators in the, in the industry. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think chart topping shows and branded. Speaker 1 We'll soon be there, right? Speaker 2 That's right. Yeah, Mentor, we're some, we're somewhere there and today we're in Broadwick St. There's also another state-of-the-art studio on Wardour St. and really from start to finish they just make the whole process really, I suppose, smooth and distressed. 3 I'd say. Speaker 1 Yeah. And I so listen, I think as they, what do they say? The presidents, they say we endorse this message. We 100% endorse viral tribe. So if you're thinking about creating a podcast and using the facilities or indeed you're a client looking to work with them on branded content, then drop them a line at [email protected]. And you're going to get 20% off the first three months if you use the word mental I. Speaker 2 Think first 3 bookings but. Speaker 1 3 bookings. Speaker 2 First three months. But anyway, that sounds like an incredible deal. So thank you, Viral Tribe. Unpacking Leigh Thomas's Impressive Career Journey Let's get Lee in, shall we? Let's get Lee in. Speaker 1 Today on Mentor, we're joined by Lee Thomas and as always, Lee, we we like to read your backgrounds because we don't like to get anything wrong. And so as a leader whose career produced creativity, technology and transformation, Lee is currently Vice President for Intuit across EMEA and Director of Intuit UK official titles. Her mission to help small and medium sized businesses grow through smarter, data-driven tools while shaping the future of digital growth alongside policy makers. Before joining into IT, Lee spent several years at Mehta where she served as VP of Global Partnerships for EMEA, overseeing 2 billion enterprise, a 2 billion enterprise portfolio. She introduced new go to market models, LED through complex reputational challenges and helped major global brands navigate transformation. I remember all of those stages at the time. Earlier in her career, she LED award-winning digital agency there as CEO and held senior leadership roles at such and Such and MVBBDO, building some of the industry's most recognized client relationships. Beyond her executive life, Lee is deeply committed to social impact. She serves as trustee of Pennies, a Fintech NGO enabling micro donations, and sits on the executive board of Wacko, where she champions representation and mentor senior female leaders. Across her career, Lee has built a reputation for driving innovation, nurturing talent and bringing humanity. I think that is very fair to say into the world of technology driven marketing, a combination that makes her one of the most inspiring voices in our industry today. Speaker 2 Now wow, what an. Speaker 1 Intro What? Speaker 2 An intro we like, We like to get it out. Speaker 1 Because yeah, people are listening. They may know people, they may have heard of them, but they don't necessarily always know everything. So we like. Speaker 2 To good for you to hear what you've achieved so well done and thank you and hello welcome you're here Lee, we're doing it. Speaker 3 I thought we were just going to have a catch up as old friends honestly. We're doing intro. Speaker 2 We can and it will be. It's like just people are just listening to. But yeah, we've got, we've got a lot to catch up on. Haven't. Speaker 1 We and Lee is one of the few people that we've all sat stood on the roof of. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, we have the roof of the. Speaker 3 Charlotte. Speaker 2 Right by by the translate the Rabbi the artistry on I think we also do the program managed to get on the executive floor and have a selfie outside Maurice leaving. Would you remember with the big lion? Obviously the big lion. And anyway, that was that was that's another story. That's for another. Speaker 3 Day, another day. That one for sure. Speaker 2 But no, we're really delighted to have you here, Lee, and thank you so much for your time. And we always ask it every week. We, we know it's quite a lot to ask for a career in 60 seconds. But yeah, we do like to get it in your own words. Like how do you get into advertising? And no, it doesn't. It's just. But if you can just say your own words. Yeah. In your own words. What what was your journey? And yeah, how did you, how did you get here? Leigh's Childhood Dream and Path to Classical Dance Well, thank you for having me. It's very lovely to see you both and to be on the Magic podcast. I think it's wonderful what you're doing for the industry, for all of us. So I've been an avid listener. So it's Korean, 60 seconds. I will try. I started off in Africa, a daughter of two entrepreneurs much like yourselves. I was supposed to have a very straight career path because if you're a child of entrepreneurs, they'd like you to go and study law and do sensible things. Instead, I unfortunately got into the finals of a very prestigious ballet competition when I was 16 called the Preda Lausanne. So I competed in Lausanne and New York and got into the top 16 in the world, which, wow, I had this sort of easy way into ballet company. My parents really were had to fight with me for two years to get me to finish my academics. But I did actually go straight into the ballet company after school. Speaker 1 Ballet was something you always wanted to do, yeah. Speaker 3 I mean, at 7 years old I decided I was going to be a classical dancer and I'd worked everyday weekends all. Speaker 1 About so tough isn't? Speaker 3 It, it's intense. It's an it's an incredible career though. Speaker 2 Did you go to money Ballet saying like, where was your inspiration for that? Just you just felt it inside you, or did you? Speaker 3 This is definitely not going to be 60 seconds we. Speaker 1 Always do it. Speaker 3 OK, No, no, I'll tell you what happened was when I was five, I was diagnosed as something called femoral anteversion. So they had to break both my legs and as part of the recovery, I was in Plaistow, Paris for a long period of time. I was on in a wheelchair and I was in crutches and sounds like such a sob story. I actually really loved that time I was drawing. I was very creative, I got to read and write etcetera and got very popular with all my friends, got lots of presents. So I don't have a traumatic articulation of the stage of my life. But I do remember trying to learn to walk again because all my muscles had left the legs. And as part of the physiotherapy, my mum was told to put me into a ballet class. And I remember standing there in the ballet class thinking this was the most wonderful thing ever. There's beautiful music. There's a way of expressing yourself through music and dance and the sheer freedom of actually of recovering my, my physicality. So yes, I did do you know, lots of go and watch lots of performances and saw some extraordinary dance. But I think that the real motivation was quite intrinsic, like the ability to move. It's just such an incredible. Speaker 2 And that freedom. Speaker 3 Yeah, so I loved it from then. And I mean, I was barely walking and I told my mum I was going to be a dancer, which says a little bit about my grit actually. Yeah, explains a lot. And then, you know, weirdly the Pretty Little sound was massive. I mean, it was a massive competition. Dances from Royal France everywhere, you know, all the Americans come and compete. And I think because of my sheer naivety, I wasn't particularly nervous and I went in and I competed and I did really well. So I've obviously built up fair amount of strength and then just had this glorious opportunity to do, you know, Balanchine, Rudy von Danzig. I wasn't a very sort of classical, classical Sugar Plum fairy type of dancer. I was much more sort of some tall, high energy, high performance, that sort of dancer. So I was very, very lucky to live out my little childhood dream. Transitioning from Ballet to the Agency World Yeah. Speaker 2 So sorry, I know this is not different. No. What happened? So then what was the pivot then? From ballet to what? Speaker 3 Did you do so? I was one of those dancers who I read a lot and I was fascinated about the economy and business and commercial. I felt like there was this whole other world that I wasn't seeing up on the casting list for the next ballet. And so I was always reading. I had a group of friends who were doing their MBAs at the time, and I thought I'd just, I think there's more to life and I didn't want to become one of the dancers who retired at 35 and then suddenly struggled to find another career. I actually do a lot of mentoring still for dancers trying to make the transition from dancing to other careers. And my dad at the time had been marketing director for Diageo Africa and he said to me, why did you try going into an agency? Because they'll train you in the job. And so I was very lucky to start at TBWA, Hunt the Scaris so. Speaker 2 He started at the top. Speaker 3 Started right at the bottom. It was, it was a great agency. And yeah, I literally didn't know how to type. Oh God I can't remember mid 20s. Speaker 2 Yeah, I didn't get into advertising until 26. Speaker 3 No, I felt like I was quite far behind everyone else and I suppose that motivated me to work really hard. I was literally in the typing pool, I think I was called APA and but I was so excited just to have a paid job that required me going to work every day. I'm so grateful and I think as a result I've, I've always felt that way actually. It's just incredibly grateful for whatever comes my way career wise and threw myself into it. So, you know, great agency, great people to learn from also then and. Speaker 1 Also, you know, exciting times like. Speaker 3 Best of best of times were. Speaker 1 Just. Speaker 2 Well, what? What? Yeah, we saw there. Speaker 3 I literally don't. I actually think I forget on purpose. Oh, right. Speaker 2 OK, fine. Yeah. Speaker 3 'Cause I can't remember and I'd rather keep it that way. Yeah, a long, long time ago, but we did. We worked. We did work. You know, I also was at Jupiter Drawing Room at that time. We worked, did work for Nike. We were winning awards over widens. We were coming to Cannes, getting lauded for our work, amazing creative talent coming out of Africa. And also I think what was good in terms of grounding, there was no such thing as the media agency, the above line agency, the point of sale agency. We did everything. I remember building our first website. So it was a really because we were so small and entrepreneurial, like we learned all those skills. Leading Agencies and Navigating Tech at Meta It was only when I moved to the UK, which was 25 years ago, that I, that I suddenly realised there were different types of agencies. And I was suddenly at Saatchi and Saatchi and actually Marie McLennan and Clive Jones gave me my first job in London. I can't, I can't imagine why that was so Green got off the boat and I think it was Murray interviewed me, gave me the job at Embassy Saatchi. And because of my accent, I know I sound a lot more English now, but because I was clearly not from here, I ended up doing a lot of global business, usually speak multiple languages, whatnot. And so I ended up doing BA and all sorts of then the whole career. Oh, this is where I'll get really fast. Whole Korean advertising in two seconds. Amazing, amazing agencies predominantly in the creative agency sector. Ended up managing director of Saatchi and Saatchi hanging out a publicist exec group sessions and then actually ended up running a private agency independent agency called DARE and had the privilege of working with Mark Collier and John Bartle and they still make me smile. To the greats and private equity backed, watching your cash flow every day, I think you guys can probably relate. That's pretty tricky. And loved it because that's the point where I started working with engineers and front end developers and understanding the difference between front end. And it was just a really interesting learning curve and wrapped that up, sold that. And at that point, Facebook came along. Speaker 1 So that went to was that Oliver? Speaker 3 Oliver yeah. And they're part of the Brand tech group. So I think the DARE brand continues in some way, shape or form. But at that point, Facebook came along. I think I found you, Mark. Yeah, we talked. I've got this. Yeah. I've got this thing that I'm interviewing for. Is it any, like, is it a proper job? I think I may have said something like that. And yeah, follows 8 years of actually, I thought I knew a bit about digital. I had to relearn everything. If you're working with engineers from Menlo Park or Mountain View, that's sort of a an incredibly privileged position to be in was brought in I suppose because of the strategic marketing capability and being able to engage with big enterprise partners from across Europe, Middle East and Africa. And then just learn to turn around things around working at scale. So things like driving a vertical sales motion across mid market small business and the global businesses bringing together engineering and marketing. This all sounds very weird if I mean I don't know how much of this makes sense because I was going about to go into techie jargon but try and get a vertical go to market for actually bringing customer first solutions and not having to re pivot products but organising the thinking in such a way that was very easy for certain verticals to buy. Speaker 1 Scale of those organisations and the influence that they have with clients is. Speaker 3 Incredibly privileged. Incredibly privileged. Speaker 1 Everyone opens their doors, don't they too? Speaker 3 Yeah, you do. It's sort of one of those things which I think keeps you quite humble because you you're constantly on privileged enough to be invited into pretty much every boardroom. And I don't take that for granted because I know how hard it was as an agency person to be in those conversations. So you have this immediate opportunity, but on the other hand, you have to check yourself quite regularly because I see a lot of people in tech thinking that they're therefore amazing without recognising actually the reason you're in those boardrooms is because you've got this incredible transformational product and AI and interesting and really sort of native understanding of what's happening in digital. So you have to remind yourself that it's not you that's successful because you happen to be your CEO conversation, it's because you've got this incredible platform behind you. So it was a great, great time. Leading Intuit EMEA and the Source of Her Drive And you know, like agencies, there's ups and downs of the tech sector. There's a bit of Apple coming in and completely making us blind for a while, which was quite interesting. And then recently, you know, just over a year ago got invited to come and speak to into it, which again is a massive pivot because now it's a general management position looking after and expanding the business outside the US. They've been predominantly US focused to date. You'll know some of the products like QuickBooks or MailChimp, 100 million customers around the world, based in Mountain View, one of the great tech companies, been around 40 years and they've made the shift to AI in the last couple of years. You know, incredibly fast pace, but the thing that I think I find most fascinating about it is this genuine customer obsession like small and mid sized businesses otherwise, and we do what we do you I'm I'm actually here to try and work out how I can increase your productivity and. Speaker 2 Thank you. No, we already, we're already on QuickBooks, some of those invoices we love. Speaker 1 Oh, we love it. It's our favorite bit. Speaker 2 And mail chimps is No, it does. I mean yes into it makes it so much easier doesn't? Speaker 3 It, well, we'll, we'll, I'll come and I'll go have a proper conversation around that. But hopefully it does. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 And so you, when you look across all that and, and you know, we, we, we've talked at various times across the years at these different junctures. And I've always, I've never just from the outside, I've never really had any, any sort of doubt that you would do well in those just because you've, you always like just, I think the way you approach things is quite, you're quite methodical. You've you think big, I think like, you know, you look for the bigger, but when you look back on when you look back on all that, where where did that initial that boldness to pivot come, you know, is that just built into your character? Did you have to learn that along the way? Did you sort of push yourself out of your comforts? What was the feeling when you were making these agency to tech platform to fintech to, and, and what did you learn? Like, you know, I guess now if, if there's people listening or thinking of joining Meta or Google or you know what, what did you learn along the way that you you feel has helped you do that? Curiosity, Humility, and Continuous Learning as Predictors Oh, it's a big question. I would say, you know, I see this in people around the world. I actually think that the there's a sort of a modern conscious type of leadership that's doing particularly well and what I would observe from others, not necessarily self reflect. It's very hard to call it on yourself, isn't it? I would say the people who most curious and hungry to learn are the ones who do really do well. I remember, I think I was in in the 6th week, I was at Facebook at the time going into a meeting with Mark. And we're a few sort of executives that just joined the business. And someone asked exactly that question. Like what is it that that like, how did we get into this business? What are you looking for? And he said, we get the MIT graduates, we get all of that stuff that's not actually a predictor of success in our business. What is a great predictor of success is hunger to learn. You know, and if I think back in my life, I think I've always been incredibly curious and been in environments where that ability to learn and suck up as much information as you can has just been a gift that's been given to me. And. Speaker 1 I was. Speaker 2 Yeah, came up last week. Speaker 3 With Stephen and. Speaker 2 It's like, and it is. It's like you say, there's that thirst and hunger to learn to get in. Yeah, it it pushes, it pushes you on because you, I suppose you never settle in a way. There's always something more you can do to get. Speaker 1 Better. And actually, now I think about it, your comment about just because you get to talk to ACEO doesn't mean you know you've you've made it. Speaker 3 Done. Speaker 1 No, Steve Moran was saying it was like, prepare more than anyone else, know the business better than anyone else. Like, you know, do that. And I think that's one of those examples because careful what you wish for, because you know, we, we would have salespeople at Spotify who'd love to on paper, would love to speak to Aceo, but then if they walked in the room, they would be. Speaker 3 You've got to do the work. I mean, the the other word I would say often have sometimes it's not necessarily a compliment. The other word that people have used around me is humility. Speaker 2 And I was going to say humble, you are very. Speaker 3 Humble, Yeah. I don't. I don't necessarily try and be anything. I just try and be myself. But I think humility is a really good if. When people say that to me, I'm really touched. And I think the reason I like the concept of humility is that you do the work. But also it comes from this. I like etymology. Those people who know me well know this, but it comes from the word humilist, comes from the word grounded of the ground. And I think if you keep yourself grounded, know your work, know what's going on, understand your data, do the, you know, do all the prep, keep yourself real. I think the, the opportunity then to learn and listen and grow becomes disproportionately available to you. So I'm not trying to say that I have a magic formula for what's happened in my life, but I've been very blessed to have been in the right place at the right time with the right people often. So there is a little bit there's a little bit of being on the right side of history, being in tech at a time when tech is really important. You know, some of that is no one could have designed that. But then being in those situations and going, I am so privileged, how am I going to make the most of it? Is is kind of what's kept me going, still keeps me going. Speaker 1 Teach that or not, like if. Speaker 3 You teach them 20. Speaker 1 Five can you teach someone to be humble or they they either either I. Speaker 2 Think it's a bit like that. There's no I in team. It's like you don't be like me myself and I'd like look, we're just part of a bigger system and it's it's about how you work together and collaborate. The other thing I was thinking about something else then around that actually, yes, serendipity does play a part. It's I mean, I'm a massive fan of it, but also you've got to be open to that. You've got to be, well, I say open yourself up to the universe, but that's a bit. But I just mean you've got you've got to look up, you've got to look up and you've got to see the opportunity and then be willing to go to for that opportunity with some humility, because you might not always get there, but you can be well prepared and give it a try. Rather than I think, you know, rather than that ego driven of I'm just going to, you know, I think the world owes me a living. Finding Purpose in Empowering Entrepreneurs, Not Just Titles No, it doesn't. You have to work very hard to get to a living. Speaker 1 But would you describe, we were talking about ambition recently and you know, a lot of people, I think generally speaking, ambition is considered a good thing. Like it's good to be ambition. But there's a fine line, isn't it? We've all had people in our teams who are like, promote me, promote me, I should be promoted, you know, And it's quite hard getting that balance. How would you? Where does ambition sort of fit into your your career? Speaker 3 Soon as you started me thinking about being a dancer again, I think it's probably in that like you don't get to be elegantly flying through life. You have there's so much grip that has to come with that, right? So I think firstly I'd say there is within me like a hunger to be excellent and for better or for worse, by the way, some days it's very tiring. I hold myself to a very high bar and therefore I am ambitious. I am competitive. I did want to get into the top 16 in the world. And I do like, you know, having the ability to think boldly and act on that and, you know, have the ability to operate at scale and do big things. Like it's exciting. Not everyone's built that way, though. And so I don't judge anyone who perhaps thinks ambition is not necessarily for them. I think there's different ways of being. Speaker 1 It's doing it properly, isn't it? You can be ambitious as long as. Speaker 2 You're ambitious arrogance. It's like, yeah, if you put the if you put the graft in it, you're like, I'm thinking about when you said about ballet, like, you know, think about how many bloody toes you had in how much I'm thinking real, really hard, real hard work goes into. But again, it's like, don't think you if you put the graft in and display yourself as being as as being, you know, as being the best that you can be, then rather than just saying, I want a promotion, I mean, I think it's that just prove it. Do, do, don't say type of thing. Actions speak way more than words. Speaker 3 I'm I'm always a little bit, when people on my team come to me and say I want to be promoted, that's like, that's my goal, that's my ambition. I always go, isn't that a little bit unambitious, like a title or five percent, 10 percent, 20% raise? Isn't that a little bit unambitious? Like, don't you want to go and do something that's truly meaningful? And I think as you get older, that becomes a little bit more prevalent, isn't it? It's like, OK, what does that mean for me now? Being a CEO is not what I'm after. You know, making sure there's enough money and, you know, commercial success is an outcome of what I do is really important because I want my kids. I'm very motivated. My family, we've got grandparents, we've got the children. You know, that's the stuff that really keeps me up at night. It's like making sure everyone's good. But I'm much more motivated by, you know, what I love about what I do now is we serve people like you, like you're entrepreneurs out there putting yourselves on the line. How cool is that? Like in being able to put AI tools in, like that kind of motivation keeps me going. Yeah, going going for AVP title or whatever the fancy title is or that is unambitious to me. Like that is almost an outcome of doing good things. Speaker 1 And, and this isn't a a sort of fishing question, but. Democratizing Tools and Opportunities for Small Businesses I think that's why I'm here. Does. Speaker 1 It feel, do you feel that now you're dealing with entrepreneurs and you're, you know, you're dealing with kind of real life, people's real lives and businesses? Does it feel more meaningful than some other some other stuff you've done before, or is it just different? Speaker 2 Helping people like me and Marco, how does that feel? Speaker 3 I do love that. I very much hope we are helping you. No, look, my, my parents were entrepreneurs. My, my mum and dad came from the, there's a literally a railway line in our hometown. And if you live on the one side, it's not particularly well off on the if you live on the other. Speaker 2 Side of the tracks. Speaker 3 Yeah, we came from the wrong side of the tracks. And so my, you know, my dad built up a business and he had a shop. He was a shopkeeper basically. And my mum, I have a very real memory of her sitting at the Ledger writing down how much they'd spent on milk that week and newspapers. And I have such distinct memory of that. And so just the idea that there are tools that can democratize and like bring, you know, opportunity to the small business, a very intrinsic motivator. And to see people not be caught up with admin and doing the physical Ledger anymore, but actually going out and doing good things in the world and spending more time doing this sort of stuff is very motivating. And I do fundamentally believe small businesses and mid sized businesses can compete with enterprises soon. I think that is what's happening with AI. Speaker 2 That. Speaker 3 Super exciting. Can you imagine doing your marketing and having, you know, your your books and your taxes and your all automatically done for you so you're freed up to go and do what you need to do in the world? And I think that's pretty motivating. Speaker 1 Was saying, you know, in some, because everyone's obviously fearful of there's so much discussion about being fearing. Yeah, but he was saying like, you know, there's never been a bit of time, you know, to start a business in that sense, never. That's the tools that are now at your disposal to help you scale, to help you market to, you know, are incredible. Speaker 2 And what because I mean, there's, there are a lot of people that are kind of a similar, I say era to us in advertising that may be thinking about coming out of their careers and starting. So I feel that there's a lot of people at our stage starting our own businesses, but what are the stats in around because obviously if you know entrepreneurs, is it, is it a massive mix across demographics in terms of your client base? Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I think technically one in five customers and one in five people in the UK are using our products. Speaker 2 Wow. Speaker 3 Because if you're not using MailChimp or QuickBooks, you're probably, you know, using a close competitor. I will say our products are about to get significantly better because that's what we're doing, especially with AI. What I would observe is it is the backbone of the economy. It's 85% of the economy relies on people like yourselves going out there and doing what you do. I would say the current economic situation and the announcements next week I think are going to make a significant difference to us all. And I very much hope at the heart of that is small and mid sized businesses because they are feeling pressure, you know, one in five go out of business and or it's productivity is what's just, you know, holding them back. You know, if you're spending all your time doing emails, invoices, all that life admin low value instead of doing the stuff that you're actually incredibly talented at doing, especially of your seniority and your qualifications. So there's a lot of risk in doing it. But at the same time, I think now is probably a better time than ever. I would say if you in big enterprises, you know AI you can invest in and it's all a big thing and you can go and do your AI programmes. But the people who are advancing most of the AI as we observe across our customer base are the entrepreneurs. They fearless. They're out there. You're trying new things. You probably. Speaker 2 We're talking about, we've got, we've got several agents for several different things. But yeah, we need it joins everything up. I mean, yeah, it's definitely transformed our business just in 2 1/2 years, hasn't it? Yeah. Speaker 3 You're probably working about 7 to 25 different apps, so. Speaker 2 Yeah, and all hours as well. I mean, being an entrepreneur, you know, it's like you just, you know, you don't, you're never off, but you're in charge of your own destiny, which which does feel good. John Bartle's Impact on Inclusive Leadership Principles Yeah. This is not about us. This. Speaker 3 Is go on then I'm just going to. It's about you now. This is. Speaker 2 About no, this is about you, Lee. And I'm thinking about because you talked about like being, you have made brave moves and bold moves and also you've that you are very humble about how you've got those opportunities being in the right place at the right time. But I suppose at those points of maybe those pivot points or just moments in your career, as we are called mentor outside of obviously, Mark, you've mentioned and John Barthel, you've mentioned as a, as a mentor. Are there any other mentors that you'd like to give a, a bit of a shout out and, and kind of what they helped, you know, a time or what advice they gave you or, or just literally a thank you, you helped me at that time. Speaker 3 Oh, I think so many. I never want to underestimate the the impact John Barthel's had in my life. I don't want to just gloss past him to actually when you in advertising get mentoring from the quality and the caliber of a human being that he is and he does it so generously has been a game changer for me because I don't think I would have learned as much about leadership that I still all my principles I use as leader were born of that quality of leadership between him and our Collier, I would say. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, that's learning from the very best. Speaker 1 A couple of examples. What things that you sort of live by as a leadership perspective? Speaker 3 People first, really knowing your people, really understanding what motivates people and how to really care for your people to the extent that no matter how tough it is, you're always there in the trenches with them. I think that's a very John Barthel, Mark Collier thing. It was all. Speaker 1 About and is that recognizing that the sort of differences between them as well? Speaker 3 Yeah. So inclusive leadership, you know, and I think situational leadership as well, where what motivates Rachel will probably be very different to you. And having a leader who can unlock the best in you and see the best in you. And sometimes that's quite difficult with some of the teams. If you if you take those principles, you know, I want to see someone really go to the full extent of their potential. And sometimes that's quite scary. Not everyone wants to go to the full extent of their potential, but that is the kind of quality of of the leadership that John and Mark and. Speaker 1 It's quite hard to do because I think. Speaker 3 It's very hard to do. Speaker 1 You know, coaches will tell you you've got to not just appeal to the people that are like you. You've got to appeal to the people that not like you, not like you. More important, I mean, that was my #1 feedback on coaching. Yeah. You're very good at motivating people who are like you. Yeah, you're no good at motivating. Speaker 3 People. No. No. Speaker 1 No, OK, well that's 'cause they're shit. Speaker 2 Well, no, that's that's because you ask you, but that's the whole thing of diverse. You thought you need diverse teams, and diverse teams have different needs and motivations. Speaker 3 Statistically much more likely to succeed Marco. Speaker 2 Remind me how long, How long have you worked Spotify for Marco? But. Speaker 3 Even things like imposter syndrome, because it's Marco, just made me think of this. You know, a lot of the very best coaching I got from these gentlemen was around imposter syndrome, and they actually welcomed and hired people who suffered from imposter syndrome quite regularly because these are the people who want to go and extend themselves and push themselves out of their comfort zone. It's those people who think they've got it. Speaker 2 All well, the ego. Speaker 3 You know, the ego driven ones generally, you know, without trying to sort of put the too much of A sort of superficial lens on it, Generally if you've got someone who's quite keen to learn and interested in learning and stretching themselves and doesn't have the ego in the way, they're much like they're much more likely to extend themselves and somebody thinks they've got it all nailed. So that's a very John Bartle bit of advice, I would say. Prioritizing Customer Value and Unifying Diverse Teams Kerry Glazer. Speaker 2 Yeah, we love Kerry. Speaker 3 Kerry's been extraordinary and I think there's a whole generation of women in our industry who owe a debt of gratitude to Kerry. Speaker 2 Should get Kerry on. Actually, you should. Speaker 3 I think she's doing some wonderful stuff. Liz Wilson's another one. I've got a whole backpack of wacklers. I would say there is a gentleman in who's of Mountain View now who I won't mention for professionalism, but who does do some mentoring with me now and again just to work me to like reminded me of quite fundamentals. You're thinking if you're working with technology people, engineers, like they're going to give you completely different advice, but this is one of the all time greats and this person's advice was, you know, really understand what your customers value. Have you spent enough time listening to your customers, understanding what they value about the product, the team that the and I was like, that's such a fundamental piece of advice, but that's the kind of advice and mentoring over the years. It's made a difference because you can build an entire business plan around your customer value. And I wonder in agency land these days, or in technology businesses as well, how many people are actually doing that? Speaker 2 You know, well, he's taking that step back and saying that and asked why are we all here? We're only here. We're here because of the customer. So we don't surround, I mean. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's, well, it's in. Speaker 2 Tough times, people can just forget and get a bit blind, can't they, To actually what they're trying to achieve so. Speaker 3 Busy with it just. Speaker 2 Yeah, this is it. The. Speaker 3 KPR well, that's the enemy of. Speaker 1 All senior roles, isn't it? It's that you get dragged internally. Yeah, You know, you don't have time to do that. You, you, you once we're talking about the fact that you know, you can, and I imagine somewhere like Meta that was very easy as well was you can get lots of smart people on a team, but getting them to actually work together and collaborate is is actually the art. Speaker 3 Of. Speaker 1 You know, leadership is that, is that something you've sort of focused on quite hard to to think about how the chemistry of these people work as much as are they good at what they do? Speaker 3 Yes, I mean, I, I love that part of leadership actually. It's like trying to work out how you create a team of very diverse characters, very diverse skill sets, particularly in tech companies where you've got product engineers and PMS and you've got to put them alongside marketers and sales folk and analysts. And it's such a diverse group of people that I have to try and encourage to work in One Direction. But I think that becomes quite, you know, if you can nail that, that becomes a superpower because the individual functions are never going to be as strong as the the alignment against some bigger vision. And then setting in place, you know, the commercial rigor, the operation, the very sounds very boring. But I've learned over time that really the data-driven arguments, understanding how it all fits together, how you get the systems working together, as well as motivating the intrinsics of the human being, that's when the magic happens. Why Agencies Remain Crucial Partners for Big Tech And I think that's probably what I do now if I had to try and describe my job because my mum still doesn't understand what I do if she listens to the sorry mum. Speaker 1 Rachel, in fact, her mum belonged to one of our events. Speaker 2 I did. She came to listen to mental life. Yeah. Speaker 3 She must be so proud. Speaker 2 She still doesn't know what I do. Speaker 3 I still trying to explain it, but if I if I wasn't thinking of my mum, it would probably be something like my job is to set a very clear aligned vision to make that make that entirely the basis of what everybody's in line to go and deliver against. That's probably the best explanation of what I do. Speaker 1 Sorry, I didn't ask at the start. So in terms of your responsibilities there, who, what, what sort of teams have you got oversight? Like, who are you bringing together as a leadership team? Speaker 3 Classic big tech isn't it. It's it's product, partnerships, PM, product marketing, marketing itself, sales small, mid sized. Speaker 1 So your are you, your do you have agency engagement? Speaker 3 I do, I, I do. I'm not a, I'm not a CMO and I, I will say I would, I have a huge amount of respect for modern CMOS. But no, we do, we do have an agency ecosystem. We have a whole lot of third parties that work with us, but the agency ecosystems are really disproportionately important. Speaker 1 Part of this is nowadays. Speaker 3 Don't be too hard on yourselves. Like there's such a necessary and vital part that they pay. I listen, we, I work for a big American tech company and we spend a lot on agencies. So we're probably one of the big corporates that certainly in the US and increasing the outside of the US, we're taken seriously, right? So it's probably different than if you're an indie, but it is more difficult to get hold of these big corporates because you've got the universal JVPS and all that stuff happening on. But but I can't tell you how much you need a good agency and how important that is. You're trying to manage your your fixed costs. You don't want to increase your fixed costs. So you have your outsourced costs and agencies bring in an are awash with the most extraordinary talent. And I hear all the narrative in the industry right now. And I will say like we cannot need an agent. Like I can't tell you how important it is to have the right people sat at the table with us. So one, just recognise your own importance. But BB, good partners like really understand our businesses, like really challenge our thinking. I find it really odd, having been for years in service of partners, to to find people just agreeing with everything I say, which is really worrying. Speaker 2 Well, you want the diversity. You want the diversity thought. You want that? Speaker 3 You want someone to go? Well, actually, yeah. Is that? Yeah. Speaker 2 And that is partnership versus just being a supplier, isn't it? Like you, again, you know, when you talked about we're all in this together, Yeah, that's the partner. That's the best partnership. When there's a yeah, a client and agency, we're in this together. How AI is Disrupting SaaS and Financial Products Yeah. And we're thinking about your business as much as you are, you know, because it's like there's, you know, there's not enough hours in the day. But what was it like then moving from so obviously big tech to fintech? Or you know, what's? Speaker 3 Yeah, I think we're still probably big tech. We do have a lot of FMS products as in the, the core of the business is still the quick books, but it's it's, you know, TurboTax and it's Credit Karma and all of those as well. And then you've got MailChimp, which is more of a martech product. So what's really interesting though, is from is the shift from sort of the meta martech type of type of the world to to what is much more of a SAS play. And what I'm finding super interesting is how AI is disrupting everything about the SAS, right? And so. We are very, very lucky in that Suzanne Godarski, who's the CEO of Intuit seven years ago went we are going to build an AI end to end platform. And that was way before the the curve of AI became the, you know, the name du jour. And he truly understood what AI was as in I think some people still think AI is like Chachi BT or you know, he truly understood that. And with 100 million customers worth of data and something like 500 different bytes of unique data per individual, where you've got people's really precious financial data, their marketing data, industry level outcomes from that, there's a lot at stake. But that carefully curated data is the source of really, really strong LLMS which have been built over the last 6-7 years that is now becoming the underpinning of us able to ride the wave of what's happening. We've just announced A partnership with Open AI so that again, all of that, if you're a marketer and a small business and you want to do your marketing strategy, you can literally use a bit of conversational UI products, TBD on the road map. I'll let you know when it comes to what is, what is the right, This is the industry I'm in. Can you tell me what's happening in this local list, local and this geography? Tell me how I should think about my marketing. Tell me how I should think about my content strategy, SMS, WhatsApp, etcetera, and bring it all together for me. And actually, I need to send my invoices all by return. You know what, I'm a small business and I've got to manage my books. I've got to do my taxes on time, but I also need to look after my customers and look after and grow my customer base. Those tools now will become a very seamless experience. And that's the work that's been happening for the last seven years. So the platform was just launched on day one and it's coming together. It's super interesting because that is not SAS as it used to be, right? I think this is. Speaker 1 You know, not to go down too much to rabble, but I think tax is the interesting link with QuickBooks, for example, because you know, the question, you want to say it's like we're, you know, we're 1/4 out from the end of the year. How can we maximise our tax, you know, tax efficiency based on what we've been doing? What would you recommend? You know? Yeah. And all of that stuff becomes. Speaker 2 Because we just scratch our heads, don't we, and think what we're going to do. Yeah, but I but do you have a? Speaker 3 Little bit of a gentle life I can't remember. I need to get you on the new platform. Speaker 2 Thank you, Lee, but I can't remember who was, I don't know, it's Colin Gottlieb or Sir Martin Sorrell. But when you're hanging up, when he said, he said we said, what does AI mean? And I think maybe it was Colin, he said AI means more holidays. And it's like, well, actually, yeah. If actually you know. Speaker 1 Oh, it's Martin Sorrows. Speaker 2 Was it Martin Sorrows? Well, listen, I'm Judith Charmer. If I'm like, that's my nickname. So if we can have more holidays, then yeah. I mean, not, not not to be scared of it. From Agency to Sales: The Importance of Knowing Your Numbers But no, that is really. That is fascinating. I'm going. Speaker 1 To move from sales, from agency to sales, because that's the other one that not many people, you know, in the grand scheme, not that many senior people go from, no. Speaker 3 Cells no Don. Speaker 2 Williams. He went from Don. Speaker 1 Was. Speaker 2 To male much from media yeah but he said in his first year he was he wanted to he wanted to hand his notice and he used to go home to his wife and say I really need to to leave and she said get back in there and then actually. Speaker 3 I think my husband's done that to me a few times. Speaker 2 Because you do, but it's because it is a bit like that firehose moment. What? Yeah. From agency to sales, what was well, eight basically dare to yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, I suppose. I think everyone's in sales in some way shape or. Speaker 2 Form. Well, yeah, true. Speaker 3 I remember my dad saying those of you was very young, if you can do sales, you can do anything. And, and it's, I would say agencies are excellent at sales. If you think about Saatchi training, right, most of us have been trained through the old Saatchi system or, but actually what that was all about was understanding your client's business, reading the annual reports, making sure you understood every safe, having equity in your clients businesses literally buying equity. I remember we used to do that. Having that sort of understanding your client is what great sales is. And I never have thought of myself as a salesperson. It's really ironic. In fact, I've always tried to avoid the idea of enterprise sales or because I always feel like I'm trying to solve my customers problem. But then what you realize is you get a little bit less hung up on titles. That's what sales does. You really try. If you can solve people's problems, they'll keep coming back for more. So I don't have any problem with being a salesperson. I think agencies train excellent salespeople. I wish they would incentivize salespeople to the extent that perhaps the platforms do because and it is brutal like the week in week out drills are full on and you have to know your numbers and you have to be out there and you have to have the hustle. I'm quite lucky because I don't have AGM role. So it's it's teams working with me, but I have to be in the, you know, in the weeds with them in order to facilitate that. And I just think it's a, it's a very interesting job. I think in meta it was particularly challenging because there were things like Cambridge Analytica or, you know, data problems or, you know, some other sort of cry. There's always a crisis. So that was an interesting learning as to how to show up when actually no one wants to talk to you. That's quite an interesting sales technique. Yeah. I. Speaker 1 Can imagine that was an interesting time. Speaker 3 And all your friends and agencies not wanting to speak to you because that that happened as well. Like, there was definitely a bit of like, oh, you've gone on to the dark side from very dear friends. Speaker 1 It's a shame because it. Speaker 3 Is a shame. Speaker 1 It is. It's more, it's more focused. The thing I found was everyone is pointing in the same direction, give or take. They all know why they're there. They're to sell whatever their, you know, the. Speaker 2 Company. There's there to solve client problems, yeah. Speaker 1 There we go through sales and, but it was the, the number I always felt it was the big difference of agency was the numbers, IE as you say, it's a rolling number. It never ends. Every quarter rolls into the next. There's no, there's no respite from it. They're weakly, you know, it's that was the big thing for me because the rest of it I found quite comfortable in a way, because I knew what agent, how agencies worked and you just chatted to them and worked out what they were, you know, But the numbers stuff that's that was a different. Speaker 3 I think you have to love numbers. Like that's the one piece of advice I wish you know more people would take more seriously. I think Carolyn McCall said that to me, actually, in the spirit of the Mental Podcast. She didn't say it to me. I think she said it to a few of us. So you have to learn to love the numbers. I was so worried about it. I went off and did an Oxford University course on financial management because I actually wanted to make sure that when I was showing up in front of a CFO that I was credible. And I have found that to be one of the fastest accelerants of your career as well. If you're able to speak, that's. Speaker 2 A thing, yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, never underestimate the power of how data and numbers and understanding of those shapes that come through the numbers can help inform better decisions, which makes you a better leader. And if your business is growing, then you can look after people better. But it all comes back to like really basics of making your finance director your best friend, understanding every single detail of that day in, day out number. And in SAS that's even more difficult. In fact, somebody asked me the other day if I felt good about the move to into it. And I will actually say it was probably the best career move I've made. Why? Because I've learned to be so good at the numbers. You have to be good at the numbers of you earn every single customer, keeping them work even harder, and if you're not doing that, it shows up in your numbers within the week. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's your curiosity and like making sure you're well prepared, you know it. And that's that's really and it's. Speaker 3 Exciting when it comes, right? Speaker 2 Well, yeah. Speaker 3 Some weeks, though, it's not so exciting. Speaker 2 Yeah, the highs are highs and the lows and lows we say. The Courage to Speak Up and Overcome Fear But and in terms of you've talked about that some mentorship and advice, one of the questions we do ask every week is around was there a magpie moment or something that you saw that you thought, wow, I'm going to steal that with pride that somebody could take away with them from today. So it could have just been the leadership lessons that you learnt or was there something else where even afraid? I mean, I have love a phrase you do like, I do like I like. Is it? I say it's from Marco all the time because he's got ideas. These ideas are let's do this. I'm going. Is the juice worth the squeeze? So that's my that's one of my favourites. So that's that's basically and I actually stole that. I stole that from my just eat client actually. So I did steal that with pride. Is there anything that could even be a saying that you've heard somebody say or we can come back to? Speaker 3 It, yeah, I would say don't. It's similar to you, which is don't. And it was one of those Bloomen posters that stay with you in the Facebook offices. But it's one I really loved. Is What would you do if you weren't afraid? Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah. And I find that very interesting because if you really ask yourself that question, you're like, I'm being not very bold at all. Speaker 2 Actually, we do another one from Facebook. We do this quite a lot. We move fast and we break. Speaker 3 Things. Oh no, don't do that. Speaker 2 I'm not sure I think. Speaker 3 We had to change that to move fast with stable infrastructure. That's. Speaker 2 Just our personal lives, we do that not in business. We don't do that in business. Speaker 3 I don't have a few good posters, but I do I do. I think it was very Cheryl actually, I think she had been the originator. The other thing I will say is, and this is this is really stays with me. Speak up. You know, I remember Cheryl doing an audience with about 100 CEOs and that it was one of those moments I was really listening to her and she asked the audience, like of this audience who knows what's going wrong in the business at the moment. And all of them put their hands up because you all know what's going wrong in the business. You can see it, right, no matter what level you're in, in what business. And then she said, OK, so of you who's actually explained to your manager what you're seeing that is wrong in the business at the moment and about two people put up their hands. Speaker 2 As in they're above manager, they're. Speaker 3 Like they're like. Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 3 Who's actually spoken up about what they're seeing that is actually challenging and not right and not durable? And very few people speak up. So one of my favourite probably career limiting things on some occasions, yeah. But I think he's really with with good intent and with respect is to my the encouragement to speak up, you know? Speaker 2 Well, it's that psychological safety, isn't it? Because actually we have like beaten of ASOS and he said, I want my teens to tell me what's going wrong, not what's going right, because I can't. Yes, everybody wants to tell you what's good, but actually I can only help. Speaker 3 What's going wrong unless I know exactly? Speaker 2 What's going on? So, but you do need psychological safety and I think in the current environment that's very hard because people it's a little. Speaker 1 Bit and I think in the the US people are a bit more respectful as the wrong word. They they they don't push back on their bosses as much. Speaker 3 As they. Speaker 1 Do in Europe. We discussed it with Bruce, didn't we? And his experiences at Twitter. So I think that psychometric safety is is important to have because as you say, it can be career limiting if it's not done in the right way. You've got the wrong kind of. Speaker 3 Respectfully, yeah, Yeah. Leigh's Humbling Moment and Lessons in Assertiveness And I do. I don't know if I make the difference between U.S. companies, and maybe I've been working with American companies too long. I actually think that's one of the great things about them is, you know, you sit with some of these legends and they do want to know what's actually going on. That's interesting. The great leaders you know well, that's. Speaker 1 Probably why they're great leaders are Yeah, you're willing. Speaker 3 To listen and there's not all of them and that's. Speaker 2 How you that's how you progress. You can't innovate and progress. You have to make some mistakes along the way, but you can't make very big mistakes. Yes, you can. We ask that every week as. Speaker 3 Well, oh, big mistake. Speaker 2 Yes. What was your biggest F up? Oh, there's been many. Well, choose your biggest and what was and what was the story set the scene, set the scene Where were you? It's. Speaker 3 Just like one of those actual stories, rather. Speaker 2 Than yeah, come on, come on. Tell us where were we? Where were we? We'll go. We'll go back with you, Lee. It can be like therapy. Speaker 3 I just think it was one of those great moments. I think I was brand new into new environment and they were all quite dubious about the hire, you know, when you walk in and haven't proven yourself. And I had to present some numbers. Coming back to the numbers thing. And about 5 minutes before the meeting, the finance director gave up a separate piece of numbers to the ones, you know, because I've always done my prep completely different set of numbers. And I sat there in front of all these people looking at me going and said how are you doing? And I looked at my numbers. I didn't understand a word. This really is cringe right? I literally looked at them and that doesn't make any sense to me and I just sat there. Speaker 1 Were they like? Speaker 2 Not were they testing you. Speaker 1 They were not like same format, different numbers. They were just different, literally different numbers. Speaker 3 Different set of numbers laid out differently and 5 minutes before the meeting and it wasn't, it wasn't a malicious, it wasn't a malicious thing. But I did literally fall over in that meeting. And I remember some other gentleman standing up and going, don't worry, I'll explain it for you. You know, all my feminist sensibilities. I was like, why did I just, why did I just let that happen? But I I actually literally died on my feet in my first meeting. Speaker 1 What would you have done differently in having that moment again? Speaker 3 Well, I'm not. I'm. I think you get. I think you get to the point in your life where you're able to speak up for yourself. Yeah. I would have said I've just. I've just been given a set of numbers. They make no sense to me. Yeah. I'll come back to you in half an hour. Yeah. And, and I certainly wouldn't have let some gentlemen. Yeah. Come and talk over me. Speaker 2 Yeah, but that says that sounds like a right setup. It was. It feels like it feels like it was sad, wasn't it? I don't think because you want The thing is you prepared for the meeting. I usually I'm perfectly but Oh my God, that was that's that's a good one. And again, similar to Nick beaten, he presented, he presented well, he did all his homework, presented all the numbers, but all his numbers were forecasting and where they were going to go to. And one of the people around the table said, what are numbers today? It was sitting like, what's this? And like literally he's going okay, and what we're going to do at Christmas and which and so literally in a retailer. Speaker 3 Because you've got to know. Speaker 2 Yourself, you've got to know, you know, and he came out of that meeting going I think it was like week 3. He's like, and he said to his boss, I'm really sorry. I just know that it went no, that was a good meeting. Now you know you got this is it was just a lesson. Speaker 3 Yeah, mine was just a failure. Strategies for Managing Pressure and Finding Mental Clarity Oh my gosh, we are we getting, we've probably got about 5 or 10 minutes left, but we are getting close to to time, aren't we? Speaker 1 I think the what what we were sort of focused on initially was we talked about magpie moments. We sort of couple that up a little bit with sort of work hacks or things that have helped you. Yes, you're dealing with, you know, high pressure jobs, senior jobs. You became ACEO for the first time. Obviously you have good runway with the Mt job at Saatchi. You've been through all these. What's advice for people and how do you handle it? Like what's your way of handling pressure and and any advice for people who are sort of about to sort of step into some of those roles? Speaker 3 Oh my word, I did see this in the prep and I was like, I don't really. Speaker 2 Have yoga, maybe just. Speaker 3 Yoga, you know, I actually don't think you're off. I think being physically fit is quite helpful and it's not necessarily about the physical fitness, although that is a nice side effect. It's the mental strain, it's. Speaker 1 Just the release of. Speaker 3 You have to find ways to get your mental. I, I have to find ways to get myself mentally cleared again. It's like clearing all the stuff out and that's either a run or that is going standing in the rain on a Saturday to watch my son play rugby or walking the dog. Those things become disproportionately important and walking away from it all is super important for me. And, and and I think within the same point. It is also sometimes just to take a beat. My, my, my current manager said to me, they why do you always say take a beat? And I like take a beat before you do it. Just take a beat before you respond to the e-mail. Take a beat before you jump onto this solution. Just take a beat and give it a moment's thought has become a do. Speaker 2 You know, it's mine at the minute and I said it the other day. It's a nice race. Well, it came. Well, I watched Blue Lights, which is. Speaker 3 The maybe that's why. Speaker 2 Blue lights the guy and he says take a beat and I've said it. I've they've said it loads of times. That's another good one. It is. It's just that moment where don't. Speaker 3 Don't do anything. Don't do anything. Yeah, you're facing a problem. Just don't do anything for a second. Maybe longer than a second. I love that. Maybe it's blue lights because I've watched it. Speaker 2 Because he. Speaker 3 Was like, what are you talking about? I said I'm. Speaker 2 Musical, I know I yeah, it's from Blue Lights, but. Speaker 3 Then I can I can move faster once I've taken that beat, but I do need a beat sometimes just to have a break and or let the problem just Stew a bit and then I keep to much better much better outcomes. Speaker 1 You deal. I mean you obviously deal a load with the USII. Used to get in the habit of always any e-mail I sent after about 6:00 PM, I'd schedule send it for about 8:30 the next morning because it would give me time in case I was a bit annoyed or anything. Yeah, but it gave me a moment. Speaker 2 Unless you've taken a beat to. Speaker 1 Reread, that was my version of taking a beat. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it is really good advice. And also I remember John O'Donnell, he like he's a triathlete, but he would use swimming to like work out, like go through his diary of the day. He did like a morning swim. He'd use running for almost like creativity. So because he's so focused on the pain that you're in, suddenly like creative thoughts. Like when people say they have creative thoughts in the shower, don't they say we'd use running for creativity? And I cannot remember what he used to run, use cycling for, but then cycling for something else. I don't know. But it's just yes, problem solving. Speaker 3 Yeah, problem. Speaker 2 Solving, Yeah. Speaker 3 Walk away from it for a bit, 100% and actually just being present with a family, like I've got two kids and you know, you can sit and go. Have I sacrificed too much time away from them? It's that classic thing. But you never get over that. But I tell you, spending time, you know, on the side of the sports field or, you know, listening to my daughter talk about a book excitedly that she's shared with me, like these are the things that give me so much joy. But, you know, everything else gets into perspective. Yeah. So. Yeah. Speaker 2 But I think you can fit those in. I think if you can fit that, because I've got massive guilt about outsourcing childcare from basically six months to actually then lockdown. We still had a no pair in lockdown. We felt a little bit over the top, but but it is those little things. So Even so now you know, if I've dropped my daughter off at school and she said, Oh, thank you so much. And I say to her, I said, it's my favorite part of the day. And then I remind myself about Love Actually, when you used to driver and it's not my favorite part of the day, but I think it is, it's those little moments, isn't it? And I think we can all feel guilt and we've all got running around, but it's focused on the little things as much as the big things, isn't it? And just we've got to give ourselves a break. My two daughters are certainly not harmed from me not being. Speaker 3 Rating fine. Speaker 2 They seem very, very. Speaker 3 Relieved that you're not around more. That's my case. Speaker 2 Mine as. Speaker 1 Well, I've walked around. I was thinking in my in the last place we lived in for 12 years, I used to walk the dog, same woods, give or take big woods, but same woods. And I reflected as we were leaving that place, I was thinking the amount of sort of stress and problems and things that I've churned through while I've walked around these woods and ultimately come out the other side and solved in some shape before, you know, is, you know, it just struck me out like, how important that kind of just. Yeah. Speaker 3 I'm with you dogs and walking. Speaker 2 And I think we'll probably it's a shame. Advice for Adapting to Accelerated Industry Transformation We're just, we're just, we really are probably finally, finally, finally, I suppose there's there is so much change in the industry right now and we we know a lot of people, but you know from. An agency or or tech, I suppose, or fintech. So the advice to because obviously you've got a lot of advice to share. I suppose a bit around change and how you respond on you can't control everything. Things change. How? How do you What advice would you give them or what help you navigate your change through your career? Speaker 3 Yeah, I do empathise because there's just a ton of change and it's happening and it's such an accelerated rate. Speaker 1 And everyone. Speaker 3 Everyone, everyone we had, I think the CEO of Claude speak with us recently and he said he feels like his life is going past in Fast forward movie at the moment. It's so fast. So I think the the way to deal with it is just focus on the controllable. So that sounding incredibly trite. You know, it says you can't fix or adjust or and I also don't believe in crystal balls. All these people say they know exactly what's going to happen. I'm not sure about the holiday point. I'm not sure about the holiday point. I know we all want to believe that I don't believe in crystal balls because it's moving so fast and I don't think anyone is exactly what's coming next. So what is it that you can control? You can be curious, you can learn, you can, you know, we'll do work that's meaningful to you. And, you know, the only other piece of advice I would suggest is not to fight the tidal wave, but to ride it. You know, I see a lot of I mentor a lot of I want to say younger people. Yes, it is predominantly younger people and, and myself. And I always say look at the PNL, look at the businesses, look at the businesses who are growing now. Put your bets on there. Don't don't be putting your bets and putting your chips and businesses who are ignoring the tidal wave and or trying to swim against it be working with the people who are into it. Speaker 2 Oh, I just go into it. Oh, yeah, I'd say what? Your young people are gonna love you for that. I think we can actually do that. End up please. Speaker 3 Don't end on that. Hosts Conclude and Thank Guests and Listeners Oh no. Speaker 2 No, let's do it because you'll feel will be very, very, but Oh no, leave. Wow, that was. Speaker 1 You know what? Speaker 3 Thank you SO. Speaker 2 Far so lovely. Speaker 3 Thank you so nice so much. Speaker 2 Thank you, of course. That's all we've got time for. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe to Mentor and share it with someone navigating their own leadership story. Speaker 1 But more importantly, if you need a little bit of advice in your own business then be sure to come to The Zoo London. We can help you with exec search and consulting support. Speaker 2 We can indeed. And don't forget, we'd love to be here about your mentors. So do drop us a line on our socials listed in the podcast description and please give us a follow on up on podcasts on Spotify. And a big thank you to Viral Tribe Entertainment Production, who are our kind producers of mentors. So a big thank you. Speaker 1 To podcast mentors. Speaker 2 Podcast mentors. So do please join us next time for more pearls of wisdom from mentors.