Leia Friedman - The Boston Entheogenic Network and Tips on Creating a Psychedelic Group

Welcome to Psychedelics Today. This is your host, Kyle. On the road interview that I did with Leah Friedman from the Boston Entheogenic Network. Joe and I were both in northern Massachusetts around the Lowell area over the weekend. And the Boston Entheogenic Network, also known as BEN, invited me up to host an introduction to transpersonal breathwork workshop. So I got to do that on Sunday, which was really awesome. And then Joe and I met up on Sunday afternoon, and Joe presented a talk on breathwork, psychedelics, and the ecological collapse. It's a pretty cool turnout. We had about, I guess, around 10 people there, which was really cool. It was also really great to connect with the people up in the Massachusetts, the Boston area. And we also got to connect with some of the listeners and fans of the podcast. So that was really awesome to actually start seeing people in person and having some relationships building. We really enjoy that. So after the breathwork session, I got to sit down with Leah on Sunday morning. And so Leah is the co-founder of the Boston Entheogenic Network. And she was hosting me to do the breathwork. And we sat down Sunday morning and just decided to have a little chat. Here's a little bit about Leah. Leah is a clinician, a professor, and a writer living in Lowell, Massachusetts. Her present focus in psychology involves teaching of meditation, yoga, ecology, and the use of psychedelics to assist psychotherapy for clinical disorders. She's also involved in local, social, and social climate justice activism, LGBTQIA concerns, and body positivity. She also has some great articles on symposia.com. So make sure you go check those out. They're in the show notes. Some of the titles for her articles include How Social and Climate Justice Activism is Psychedelic, Where Ecofeminism and Psychedelics Meet, Psychedelics and Sexual Healing. So I also want to highlight that there was a study that I mentioned in the talk. It just kind of popped in my head while we were chatting. And as I was doing research for the show notes, I found out that this study actually never really happened. It was one of those stories just floated around a few years ago. And, you know, I probably just read it and it just stuck in my mind and never really did any further research. But as I was doing some further research today, I realized that, oh, it wasn't actually, didn't actually happen how it, how it was presented. And that, that study was about five monkeys in a cage. And who knows, you might've heard about it or read it on the internet a few years ago when it was starting to become popular. But I just posted an article from Psychology Today that kind of describes how that story got passed around and where it kind of originated from. So I just wanted to highlight that. And let's see, Joe has some questions. Some workshops coming up. He's got one on June 23rd in Lyons, Colorado. It's the Back to Balance Interlight Revival Workshop with a bunch of other practitioners. And Joe will be doing some transpersonal breath work there. He also has another workshop coming up on July 8th. For more information, you can check out our Facebook page, or you can go to breckbreath.com. And make sure you subscribe to iTunes, Stitcher, anywhere that you listen to podcasts. It would be greatly appreciated. And if you like the show and like what we're doing, you know, consider leaving us a review on iTunes. It helps boost our ranking and gets the message out there. And another way that you could support the show is just sharing it, sharing any of the episodes that you like to your friends, your colleagues, family members. So yeah, we really appreciate you listening and supporting us. We are working on this integration course and we should have a sales plan for that. So if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us. So you can pre-enroll in the course and we're excited to offer this again. So be sure to stay tuned for any details about enrolling into that course. We will keep you posted. And just a little background about this episode. Leah and I talk about her interest in psychedelics, how she coined the term the psychedelicist, and a little bit about her background in feminism, her interest in eco-feminism, and where psychedelics meet and relate to that topic. We also talk about the formation of BEN, the Boston Entheogenic Network. And she also provides some tips and advice on how to get started with your own psychedelic group. So I really hope you enjoy this episode. Let us know what you think. You can comment on our page, comment on Facebook. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and we really hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening. I'm here with Leah Friedman, the psychedelicist, and also co-founder of BEN, which is the Boston Entheogenic Network. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Yeah, that's right. Co-founder and current facilitator with Nathaniel and Nikki. Awesome. Yeah, this is kind of cool. We're doing another in-person interview and BEN and you guys just invited me up to lead a little breathwork circle yesterday, which was Saturday. And I think that was really awesome. Thanks for having me up there. Oh, thank you so much for making the drive. The turnout was great and everyone really enjoyed your practice. It was my first time actually witnessing a full out and it was abbreviated at best, right? Yeah, it was an hour, usually three hours. But yeah, it was really a good opportunity for the group to share an experience of elevation together. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks for facilitating, helping out with that. So let's jump in a little bit about your background. How'd you get started in doing some psychedelic research or terming the psychedelicist? Well, the psychedelicist was birthed when I was traveling in Southeast Asia last year and I was couch surfing, like renting rooms from local people and just trying to immerse myself in different cultures. I started doing that a few years ago when I graduated from college, from my master's and thought, all right, like next step, PhD, like what do I need to do to do that? And it was just the like next rung of the ladder, moving on and on in the same direction. But the limit, you know, is that you only see forward. You don't see what's on either side. So having an experience of not being a good fit in my first job out of my master's, I decided that I should visit a passion I'd had all my life, which was to travel and see the ways that other people live and be open to the possibilities that I could live another way. So my travels took me to Costa Rica, and that was when I saw a holistic approach at wellness that was highly integrated with nature and with one's community. And that just continued to blow my mind. The following year, I went to Asia. And in Bali, I was designing an online course because I teach online courses as an adjunct psychology professor. Yep. I teach at Bunker Hill and sometimes at LaSalle College and sometimes at Nashua Community College. And as I designed that course, I was just visiting the local meditation space and yoga studio and like just eating with the local food, meeting people in the street, things like that, seeing other ways that people spend their time. And I went to Vietnam shortly after that. And this girl had said I could stay with her. As it turned out, they were approaching the Tet holiday, which is like a week long. Nobody works. Everyone's with their family celebrating. That's in February. So her family went away and I had this whole apartment to myself in Dalat. I was like living in this mountain city in this apartment all on my own. That's kind of cool. Yeah, it was surprising. And I was like, OK, how can I find the place where I am between all these different fields and areas? And I realized that psychedelics and altered states are of interest to me. And I think that, you know, pose a potential benefit to the world that the world needs. And it needs, you know, discerning and responsible use that has some purpose, not that recreational use is not is not important. I think that experiences of any kind can be integrated to be useful for not just ourselves, but for all of humanity. So where does everything meet? Oh, like psychology, psychedelics and culture, psychology. So that that's when the I've sought to connect with my community in the psychedelic way by bringing people together who share in these experiences for us to have a container to talk about them and discuss them. When you were doing your graduate degree, did you have any interest in psychedelics? Like, did you think about like, I want to do either research or get involved or to kind of form while you're traveling? Yeah, no, I had no interest in psychedelics at all. I wouldn't have known the difference between psychedelic and any other sort of drug other than what I learned, you know, which is just like base pharmacological. action was different. Um, I still, I associated psychedelics as much as like potential abuse drugs and anything else. But, um, I ended up dating someone who is into exploring the realms of consciousness. He was into Vipassana and, um, reading Graham Hancock and yeah. Um, so that was what first piqued my interest. Um, yeah, I, yeah, I had never, I had never had any experiences like that before. Cool. Yeah. I remember we met, I think in 2015 at Symposia. Yeah. Their, uh, their second conference that they had over in Amherst. Yeah. You spoke at that, didn't you? Yeah. I gave a little talk on breathwork, psychedelics, and the near death experience. Yeah. You spoke about yours too. Yeah. I remember. Yeah. I was really moved by that. Um, I had, I considered it an academic conference. It was, um, there was a lot of great information, a lot of academic people. And I hadn't heard, um, someone like deliver information by like first starting with their story. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really cool conference because of that. Everybody had like their storytelling event and, uh, yeah, I think to get these stories out there is really important. And also to have people witness a powerful life changing story like that. It's really healing sometimes. So yeah, they did a wonderful job with that, but, um, cool. So where are you at now? Are you doing any integration work or what are you doing with, yeah, Ben's doing a lot. Um, you know, Ben is a network and the leaders are here to facilitate whatever the members and the network wants to do. So, um, we're open to how the group wants to shape itself. Um, you know, we don't condone or facilitate illegal activity of any kind. Um, but talking about an integrating past experiences people have had is still within the realms of the law. Yeah. Thankfully. Um, so we've, had integration circles so far like overwhelmingly positive response. I, I think the integration of any sort of life event is important. And sometimes we come together to integrate and things that have nothing to do with altered States come up and, and that's all part of it because, you know, our, our life is just a, a interwoven, um, like rug of all these different threads of experience. Yeah. That's a great point. You know, sometimes trauma just needs to be integrated and yeah, it's not just necessarily, you know, it's not necessarily, you know, it's not necessarily based in psychedelics. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, before even working to integrate, we have to recognize what is there that hasn't been integrated and that starts with looking at yourself. So that's why I like practices such as breathwork or meditation when we can develop that ability to, to look within. Yeah. So how did Ben come to form? Well, at horizons in 2016, um, I was, um, viciously because I wanted to go a bit further and, and be, um, be active in my community, uh, back in Boston. So I had talked to Kevin and he invited me to lunch with a couple of folks and you were there and Nathaniel was there. And that was when Nathaniel and I first spoke and he, you know, we just had chit chatted a bit and we had like some similar ideas and a nice discussion. And then he said, uh, he leans in and he's real casual. So, uh, what do you think about starting up a, a community group in Boston for psychedelic people? And, um, it was like one of those flashbulb moments of, um, you know, that was like where it all began. And then that, that was like the taking root of, of so many things that are still, you know, just seeding right now. Awesome. And so, yeah, it's still a new group. Are you guys getting a good turnout with some of your events and the integration circles that you've been holding? Yeah. Yeah. There are quite a lot of active members. I'd say like maybe 30 or 40 folks who I've met since, um, and, um, people come, you know, people come to the meetings and meetings are free. We have events, workshops, et cetera, like the one yesterday where there's like a asked donation or energy exchange. And we're kind of trying to build, um, some funds so that we can have, um, like more renowned speakers come and, and practitioners to offer events with us. Yeah. I don't know if this is totally public yet, but you guys are thinking about hosting, uh, an event in September. Oh yeah. Oh, it's on. It's on here. Here it is. Here it's public. Um, still thinking about the name. I'm partial to a trip to the past Boston psychedelic history. Um, but the theme is, um, yeah, the theme is entheogens in the Boston area in new England. And we have, um, Don Latin coming to talk about his new book and to offer, um, a walking tour of Boston with different, you know, historical narration related to all of its psychedelic history, which is tremendous by the way. I'm hoping Joe Rogan's going to hear this and come and, um, freely speak for, um, not that we don't make a huge killing off of, you know, the breath work sessions. No, I'm totally kidding. We just taking as many donations as we can get. And the speakers are really, they're being very generous with their time. And basically, um, it's like. I was emailing with Rick Doblin setting up for this event and, um, I love it. He signed the message different every time. And, um, my favorite one was, you know, here's to growing the home team. And it's just, it's so true. We, we have a home team and we just, you know, it's find the others and, and screw together. Yeah. And Boston has such that rich, rich history with like, yeah, Harvard and Leary and Ram Dass and Richard Alpert. Um, but it's interesting because there's definitely probably some politics that linger around there from that era. So it's interesting to see stuff starting to form again and hopefully change whatever's still there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it is a, it's a tricky time. We, we have to be very mindful of what's going on in the trend of this movement. Um, just like, you know, imagine if MDMA hadn't hit the street with like such a force and, um, you know, if it had just kind of stayed under the radar, like how. Would be decades of use in couples therapy right now, the advancements that could have been made in the divorce rates so high and depression, et cetera. Like what if, so I do see, you know, in this community, most people are being cautious not to like, uh, drop the ball and have, you know, give psychedelics a bad name. I mean, they've already got a bad name, but like show people what they want to believe is true, that, that this is dangerous stuff and like, you know, something powerful and life changing can be dangerous, but it's all in how you use it. Yeah. This is, this is the, could be the saving grace for the danger that we're in. Yeah, definitely. Um, what do you think the overall mission for Ben is like your vision? Wait, let's finish talking about the event so I can look up the exact wording of the mission. Cause it has a lot of adjectives, nouns, articles. Um, in addition to Don Latin, we're going to have Bill Richards. Yep. Yep. Speaking about his book and we actually need volunteers to help. Um, coordinate this event and help get things to going. So if anyone's interested, they can contact me. You'll give my contact at the end, right? Yep. Cool. Um, and then yeah, Rick Doblin is going to grace us as well. Being a local, he's part of, I always forget he's from the area since maps is based out of Santa Cruz, but yeah, that's cool. Good old Boston. Um, yeah, we're going to have, hopefully we'll have a psychedelic storytelling, um, on Friday night. And then, yeah. Yeah. We're going to have, hopefully we'll have a psychedelic storytelling, um, on Friday night. And then will that be with symposia? I think so. Yeah. I hope so. I love symposia. Um, we, we have got a member in the group who's, um, done other storytelling events. So we're also trying to figure out if there could be like a monthly like moth, like themed. Oh, cool. Yeah. Um, cause you know, the stories are so important. Yeah. Um, yeah. So probably just like a storytelling mixer Friday night. And then Saturday, tentatively, we've got the walking tour will be in the morning. And that's like limited. The number of people that can go is limited. And that one will cost a bit more energy exchange for that one. And then in the afternoon, a book talk. And at least two authors, at least Don Lattin and Bill Richards, maybe a few surprises. Oh, and then maybe we're going to fit in a breathwork somewhere, eh? How might that be? That would be cool. If we can fit it in the schedule and figure out how to work it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it can work. And then Sunday, we'll do like speakers and then a panel. I think I'm going to moderate a panel of everyone. And also hoping for somebody from the Women's Visionary Council or just another local psychedelic woman or similar. That would be cool to add some other hormones to the panel of guys. Yeah, definitely. Which is important. Yeah. I think we've been doing a fair share of trying to get women on the show, which is really great. And I remember when we were at, when I was at the MDMA training for the one week. And I think Annie Mithoffer said like the future, like the women are the future of the psychedelic movement. And yeah, I believe it's like the medicine holders and connected with earth and all that. So, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I read a really great article the other day. So funny that you just said that, because here we go. It was like why it's exclusionary to say women are the future. And I love the. the shifting public awareness of the paradigm of sex and gender and um that you know there are a lot of ways to be a woman and a lot of ways to be a man um and so i think that we can make this movement more inclusive without um without uh call without calling out um you know the way that the population is you know we see like a higher representation of cisgender and like maybe upper middle class white males in the movement but um that doesn't mean that they're not offering a lot to it um it's just the more colors and shades and vibrations that are coming together you know i think everyone has a place at this table and hopefully we can you know us and the community can make it um can can welcome and span all all boundaries of people yeah yeah cool so i definitely want to dive into this topic some more um especially with the feminism aspect i know you said that's into it but i want to just get back to the ben just to wrap that up i got the description right here yeah um ben's purpose is and i think related to what we were just saying anyhow uh we collaborate on projects that investigate educate and celebrate the use of entheogenic experiences in the modern world for the social benefits of public health human rights and activism and then going forth we have events and talk about consciousness plant medicines meditation radical politics psychedelics art wellness sustainability integration empathy mutual aid the future and the now so much there that's awesome join us and most of your events are in the boston region yeah um i'm based in lowell and lowell's also got an interesting history um and there are a lot of psychedelic people here a lot of people um traveling other realms through all different means we have a great yoga community um so there are events in lowell too um and there's also interest in western mass i think there's a lot out there i'm just trying to get it organized yeah which is i think part of what you're doing trying to get the voice out there and let it be known that this work is happening yeah people are surprised i had no idea there was something like that something like this you know because it's it's like the scheduling you know makes people think that we can't even talk about this it's like the experiment with the bananas that you talked about oh last night yeah yeah yeah i just gave a little background we were talking about uh i guess the role maybe of like epigenetics and i was explaining that there is a study done where they're showing how behavior gets passed down and so there's um the study where these monkeys there's a banana on top of a ladder and every time a monkey went up to grab the banana they would either get shocked or get water splashed on them and then so whenever a monkey would go up the whole group would get angry because it was like if one person did it the whole group would get affected and then so over time like they said you know the monkeys were thinking you know if anybody goes up there they're gonna get like a consequence and so the monkeys actually just started kind of beating each other up if they went for the banana so then they started taking uh the old monkeys out and replacing with new monkeys so over time you just have this whole new kind of generation of monkeys and no one's actually been shocked or had water splashed exactly it's just kind of reinforced in their behavior their beliefs that i shouldn't go touch the banana you know something's gonna happen not too sure what's gonna happen but um i should try and dig it up and maybe i can put it in the show notes yeah it was a while ago it was a few years ago but yeah we're still shocking monkeys to prove that humans are a little foolish a little silly yeah well that reminds me of feminism on its own that um like for example women don't consider um not wearing a bra sometimes just not even a possibility and um that's because women's breasts are illegal they're illegal to show in public and um i think that there's a lot of confusion and derailment comes up when people are like well i'm not going to walk around nude like why should i petition for for this but it's like it's the concept of like illegalizing or like um saying that a person's body is indecent or pornographic you know that that breasts cannot be shown um online now naturally there's the way that our bodies are depicted by the media has a great effect on this as well as the conditioning from our parents and more conservative generations i think that you can be conservative and recognize that a person's body has a naked body underneath their clothing and there's no reason to um shame or uh or illegalize uh somebody's some something that's born yeah we're born into the world naked and we're gonna die naked in some sense yeah it's kind of kind of absurd but i guess we're that culture of monkeys that have haven't touched the banana yet and so we've learned over time just not to go there because it's taboo mm-hmm yeah but ultimately the punishment is going to come from all of them all of us starving if we don't go up and get those bananas right they're staring us yeah so yeah let's dive in a little bit about um where psychedelics and feminism meet where do they meet um or what's your interest in uh feminism yeah um well i think we should clarify what we're talking about here okay because there there are a lot of misunderstandings and i don't attempt to speak for um all of feminism but i will speak to there's a lot of different subgroups and yeah different theories out there yep just like in the psychedelic movement there are different ways that people come to it for me it means um that no one is excluded or included or treated differently based on anything about their demographic so that means that um if someone's given a different opportunity based on something about them some way that they were born or something that happened during their life that um that that's that's unfair and doesn't make sense and i think feminism in you know the when i like when i see something happening that i think is good um it's it's usually to to change those um unfair dynamics of power and to make it more equitable which is beneficial for the entire civilization you know for the singularity yeah it's great definition great overview well i i taught as you know i teach psychology courses and i taught a social psychology course um and the whole class was girls there's one guy in it and the rest were um women and um you know it was hard to it's hard to talk about these things when there's so many like articles that go viral that are like hashtag i don't need feminism because and it it's like i think that being able to sit down and talk to somebody about what you mean makes a difference and these divisions get formed and my class was there there were like polarization there was polarization going on um when these controversial topics of privilege and whatnot would come up um uh some you know some of the students wrote in you know responses to essay questions i don't think that i don't think privilege is a thing or i don't think it's important and um i like i have one-on-one yeah cringe um but just you know i i imagine that one's life experience and our story is the most powerful way that we interpret reality that's just what we're gonna ground and compare everything to so it's a testament to the life experiences they've had like not you know the sort of love or intelligence they're capable of yeah definitely i was just having this conversation with a friend um the other day about you know he because he gets frustrated with people and you know i think a lot of people are doing the best they can and they grow up in certain situations and certain bubbles where that's all they know and i think i don't know now in in the age of information and education things are definitely getting out there and starting to stir the pot a little bit but um yeah i mean i don't know i guess i come from the the basic view that like i think we're all good with some like human like you know humans are naturally good but um you know we're just very influential by our environment and all the different things around us and sometimes it's hard to break free from those bubbles and yeah and we so we become very individual and isolated and that's all we know and then so we hate everybody on the other side that isn't living in our bubble and um so yeah like you mentioned last night um we are the descendants of highly uh successful tribes right yeah that was the quote yeah i think um one of the reasons i most teachers hate teaching 101 they just it's like the last course that you know they'll send out the email sos we need three teachers for psych 101 air silence and then me oh give them all to me i love teaching 101 because we get to learn about all the different perspectives and they all have a part and i think that what we're getting at in a way is evolutionary psychology or evolution in general um that in the previous conditions it was highly beneficial to our species to form judgments and to be able to discriminate you know because discriminate means tell the difference and um to be like open-hearted to everybody in a time when um there's like you know your your predator or prey And you have to stick with your clan, those that are like you. It's just that now humans are all like each other and we don't have to recognize differences in other humans because, well, the more similarities we can recognize, I think that the more chance we stand to survive and we're realizing that. Yeah. And I think with the technology and people connecting across the world, yeah, it's definitely opening up people's eyes and being like, oh, wow, we're all kind of similar in some sense. So, yeah, we're living in definitely an interesting time. So you wrote a piece on symposia about ecofeminism. Yeah. Can you explain a little bit about that and what that piece was about? Yeah. I mean, I interviewed Zoe Helena from Cosmic Sister. And so the piece was an interview on where ecofeminism and psychedelics meet. That was the name. And we we went into some of the work Cosmic Sister does with providing like with searching for grants. And. Fundraising so that women who are leaders in their community can travel down to Peru and participate in a traditional ayahuasca ceremony or a series. And what's the point of that? So that was what I started in with. Actually, I this is why I like talking to people one on one is because you can you can go for it without, you know, the the you don't want to put somebody on the spot in front of a bunch. But I, you know, in a way, put Zoe on the spot and like. You know, like, why do we need to go into the jungle now? How does it even matter? Like, look at the world out here. Shouldn't we be doing our work out here? And she brilliantly went into like, no, no, that's where the work starts because of the, you know, the nodes that that each person who can transmit a message and who can have have influence. You know, we all have influence over the people around us. So the more people heal. And trauma and discover the bigger picture and how effective they can be in in changing the systems that have led to this, like ecological devastation that we're facing, then that's that's for everybody. And that's the most important work. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I just saw somebody post something about having to go through heaven. You need to go through the underworld. And maybe that. Is part of it, going to the jungle, learning the information and bringing it back. But can you describe what ecofeminism is? Yeah, like in my understanding, you know, previously I described how feminism, I think, seeks to make everyone have a shot and everyone be treated with the same respect and dignity, you know, you know, not depending on anything having to do with their demographic. So ecofeminism sweeps to include the animals and the plant kingdom and the fungi, fungi and the perspective that if we can all come and see things together, that we'll notice the human race and and the animal and plants, the interconnectedness and the interdependence. And so if people start to shift that mindset, then everyone can everyone can ultimately be free and survive and we can keep on progressing. And the psychedelics meet there with the plant medicine specifically. Um, yeah, well, it's a good question. Um, that's Zoe's sweet spot. I know you guys are gonna have her on the show at some point, right? Yeah, we were supposed to and then we had to reschedule, so we'll probably dive a little bit deeper in with her. She and I had incredible conversations leading up to that interview, um, just to see what was the most important thing. To convey and to get to know each other and, um, wow, she's had a lot of incredible life experiences and has a lot of wisdom to share, so I'll leave that one to her where they, where they meet, um, but or, and they meet, yeah, they meet with cosmic sister basically. Hmm, cool, um, for anybody that doesn't know what cosmic sister is, could you give a little brief background? I know we'll probably dive into that a little bit more when we have Zoe on the show, but yeah. Yeah, well, she, Zoe founded cosmic sister to provide women in the industry with a positive forum to support each other, to be proactive and, uh, a sisterhood within, um, what she saw, what she had seen was a very unethical business industry. Even the natural product industry that she worked in was, um, male dominated and, um, just like lots of, uh, patriarchy, um, that she experienced and recognized, so when she left that, she wanted to provide support. She wanted to provide support to, um, to, for women to expand and, and women who had been through, um, marginalization, you know, for various reasons, um, to, to, to lift up and to lift each other up, so, but another part of, um, her, her work is, um, ecological preservation and specifically animals and endangered species of all kinds. Hmm, wonderful. Hmm. Do you feel like there's, uh, um, a good representation of women in the psychedelic field? Well, no, like, I'm not going to think about if it's yes or no, no, but now let me think about what to say. Um, you at home should think about it too. Yeah. What's going on there? Um, if. If because of your demographic, you're more at risk of being searched or profiled or pulled over or, um, you know, you're less likely to get a job if you have something on your record, you know, then that person's going to need to protect themselves and be more cautious and, you know, new, new ideas that might involve risk, um, are, they're going to pose more risk to you, so you're not going to give those ideas as much consideration. So I think there's that going on. I think there's a problem of, um. access to like, you know, psychedelic events. Like we, we keep ours by donation. And if the asked energy exchange is going to be prohibitive for someone to attend, like just talk to us, you can still come, like everyone can come. Um, I think that we focus on what each person can give and, um, everyone has something to give and it's, and it's not just money, but money is often a prohibitive factor. So, you know, not everybody can travel to San Francisco to attend, you know, 400 plus dollar psychedelic science, all of those dollars going to highly important research that's making a better world. But, you know, if that's not accessible to somebody right now, there should be other options for them to attend. And there often are volunteering and work trade and whatnot, but I think that that's still a big part of the unfair, um, distribution. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it is kind of nice that, you know, they can do volunteer work. I know I did volunteer work to cut the ticket price down, which was helpful. And, you know, I'm also in grad school, so that helps out too, to get a nice cheap ticket. But, um, you know, it was also really awesome for them to put all those talks online. Um, so I think, yeah, I don't know if you didn't get to attend, at least the stuff's there. Definitely. I guess you miss all the networking and kind of like socializing aspect of that. Yeah. And hopefully people know that they can find, you know, there's a global psychedelic society network and just, you know, hundreds of have, um, psychedelic societies like Boston and theogenic network, for example, that's what you've got going on in Massachusetts. And maybe there are others that I don't even know about. Um, but across the world you can hopefully find, um, some, some meetup group or something, um, and get going that way. Yeah. Yeah. Any advice for getting things started? Cause I know there's probably a lot of people out there that want to get a group started. Um, what was it like to form this, uh, group, the Boston and theogenic network and being a woman and, you know, really trying to get some stuff out there as well. Yeah. I've always liked like having parties, like making gatherings, um, getting people together. So I got to indulge that, um, that preference of mine, um, to be that like the one who, who beckons people to come. Um, it was effortless. Honestly, we had Nathaniel and Matt had had a group going already. It was called, Boston area, radical consciousness and psychedelic integration group, meetup group, something like that. Yeah. And it just rolls right off the tongue. But, um, we, so we took that group and just thought about a name change. Nathaniel came up with Boston and theogenic network and we liked entheogenic because, um, it entheogenic means, um, you know, seeking the God within. And I, I thought of you actually, Kyle, um, and how you had had an altered consciousness experience in your near-death experience. Um, and I, you know, so I'm not perfect. I'm not, I don't even think I'm good at this yet, but I'm always seeking to increase like the inclusivity of whatever I do. And so I wanted it to be inclusive of, you know, non-psychedelic altered consciousness experiences now had lunch with Kat Harrison of the ethno botanical library in occidental this week. And Oh, awesome. Yeah. Oh, it was amazing. And she asked, um, what, Oh, his name escapes me. Um, I'll look it up so we can have it on the air. The person who coined entheogenic what he felt about our use of it in that way. And, um, so I, yeah, I guess we're kind of using a trademark if you will, or whatnot, but that's what it means for us. Um, what do you think of the term? Well, I, I, I'm probably the one who's responsible for saying like, yeah. And theogenic because like, it's not just psychedelic experiences that we're going to draw people to. We did breathwork yesterday. Yeah. And, um, you know, breathwork is like a very deep journey that's available to you every second. It's available to everybody, everybody who can breathe, um, who still has, you know, clean air to breathe. So the formation of the group was pretty easy because we had the Facebook group already changed the name and just like set up for a first meeting and lots of people came and we shared and the energy was, was cheerful and excited and like had a lot of potential. Yeah. So we just went forward from there. Um, you wanted to hear my advice to groups that want to start up. Yeah. I think that would be really helpful because, you know, I think as this research starts coming out, people are starting to come out of the closet a little bit more. They're trying to find people to connect with, especially if people are living out in like rural areas, it's might be hard to even find a fellow explorer, psychonaut, whatever you want to call yourself. Um, and I think having some sort of group going back to the tribe mentality, like it's nice to have human connection with folks that understand you. And, um, coming back to Sheree, we just had her on the show. It was the one quote that stuck out. We made like a little, uh, like a quote poster, you know, and it's like the real medicine is all about human connection. And I know for me, after I had my near death experience being 16, not really knowing who to talk to, where to find a group, anything like that. Like it felt kind of, uh, isolating. So I wish there was a group around me at that time, but back then, like, I don't even know if I'd look for it as a teenager, but, um, but now, yeah, I'm curious, you know, but there's nothing around me. So I'm even trying to like, think, how do I get something started around here? Um, project F Kyle. Yeah. Um, well I, the harm reduction standpoint resonates with me a lot, um, of recognizing what people are doing and what people do when they're not educated about what they're doing. Um, so from that standpoint of public safety, um, which, you know, I think transcends physical safety. Um, the, the local, um, psychedelic group or similar, um, offers, uh, an option, you know, or another, um, protective layer to, to keep people, you know, knowing what, what each other's doing and supporting each other in that way. Um, providing education. Uh, I wanted to say, did you ask me a direct question? Well, just like any advice on how to get like any groups started if people are interested. Oh, I know. I was going to say, if you're worried, if you're thinking, you know, how great it would be to have a psychedelic meetup group in, um, Van Gorman, uh, they probably have one already. Well, maybe not. Um, Hey, Van Gore, you need a psychedelic society. If you're thinking about the legal risk, I would just remind folks that, you know, if you ever looked at activism of some kind and had some admiration for it, just for, um, the way that people put themselves out there for a cause when it, when it could come back to negatively affect them, recognize that activism can be done within the confines of the law, like to a really effective extent. Um, and I saw that, um, when I got into the climate justice movement a couple of years ago, just how, how my colleagues and comrades were exercising their rights. So you exercise your right to keep your community safe by providing free and accessible education and bonding related to altered consciousness experiences. And that's, you don't have to condone or facilitate any illegal activity. This is the term I'm like using now condone or facilitate. Um, because yeah, I, I had a huge bout of paranoia in, um, like may. Yeah. Around the country. Yeah. I'm like a public figure in this movement and like, you know, what does it look like? Um, and you know, my, my colleagues helped me as well. Cause we're always talking about like how to make sure the meetings are safe for everybody. Um, and, and there's a lot to learn. You have to be, go slow, check in with yourself and with the people you're doing this with. Um, I definitely recommend doing it in a group, figure out what your local laws are, what feels good, what feels safe, protect your members. Like don't meet in a place where you're not allowed to meet with them. Don't meet in a place where people might be talking about illegal activity, um, and be overheard and cause issue for, you know, the establishment or anything like that. Um, and, and then what's, what's the point? Like, what are you trying to accomplish? You know, if it's for the purposes of community and an integration, um, and a harm reduction, then that's going to look like, um, different events and different offerings than a group whose purpose is like, um, you know, uh, um, forwarding like a, a research agenda or, or like support for decriminalization or something. And then there's a need for all those kinds of groups. It should be based on who's in the group. Yeah. Coming back to safety and, um, stuff like that, I would assume, you know, I talk about psychedelics with folks cause you know, obviously we have this podcast and it's just my interest, but people think that, you know, I use that a lot and I really don't. And wait, they think that you use what like psychedelics often, you know, you don't know, not really. Uh, breath work is, you know, mostly my thing now. And, um, but for people like, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to a psychedelic conference or psychedelic meetup and everybody thinks we're all doing drugs together. Um, which is not the case. It's just a lot of deep conversation. Are there people that, that ever have ever showed up asking about substances, um, ask or coming intoxicated, thinking that that's what's going on there? Um, no, that hasn't happened. Um, we, we modeled our group traditions after AA, some of them. And so in, in reference to that, it's, you know, if someone shows up, um, under the influence of something at the meeting, um, they won't, you know, just be like kicked out. It's not like a no tolerance policy, but, um, the safety of the group, you know, being important, then the leaders will, you know, talk to that person. Um, and there's no, you know, exchange of cash or substances or anything like that at our meetings, except, um, the journey journals. And, um, that's our little fundraiser going on now. Um, journals that people can decorate and, and they can record, um, their journeys in. So yeah, that, but just that, um, sometimes there's, there's posts in the Facebook group that are like, you know, there's language that is used and it's like, okay, that might mean that. Um, I don't know, but I could be wrong. I could be misinterpreting. Yeah. I can't find who made up the word entheogen, but I bet like two people listening probably know. Try to put that in the show notes. I can't think of it off the top of my head. I have to look it up. That's like, that's been one of my, um, struggles with having come to this movement, like later in life is I haven't read some of the classics. I don't know, like the people responsible, you know, the pioneers, I don't know all of them and I want to, I'm slowly learning. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. Like I have done a lot of reading in the past and used to know a lot more, I feel like. And now that I've shifted to being in grad school and just like thinking more clinically and then also doing this podcast and absorbing myself into marketing and like how to do all this technological stuff. I feel like I've shifted away a little bit from reading a lot of stuff. I feel like I've shifted away a little bit from reading a lot of psychedelic literature and keeping up with it in some sense where I'm like, okay, how do I do this now? So it's interesting, like your interest shift back and forth and, you know, it used to be really well versed in a lot of different psychedelic things. I'm like, ah, I forgot, you know, like, cause it's like, you know, I'm doing something completely different in some sense of where I need to pour my energy into how do I make this work now? So, yeah. Um, you guys are doing great work. That was part of my realization with, um, that I could, that I could offer the community something. I like speaking and I like having conversations. And so I thought that the psychedelicist could be a blog and a podcast and I'm getting that underway. I've gotten some support from some people recently to start it up. Cool. But what's, what's your experience been with, with that? I mean, obviously like learning about business is completely different than reading. Technology piece. Yeah. Tech, everything. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a different way of learning, I guess. Um, yeah, it's been difficult. It's interesting because like I need to, and maybe this comes back to integration and even starting a psychedelic field. It's like, I'm more, I guess, emotionally intelligent, I guess you would say like emotional IQ, um, where I'm just more intuitive and not really like the techie technical type of person I used to be. But I think over time I've just learned to kind of tune into myself a little bit more. And, um, so trying to do this stuff is, I don't know, I get kind of lost. I'm like, ah, how do i do this like it's great that joe does most of the podcast editing and um but you know it's been a learning process but i think it also comes back to integrating um that i have all these experiences and then what do you do with it and then how do you make something work out of it and like i could continue to just dig into the things that i've dug into before and synthesize something else but now i need to learn a new skill to get things out there and so it's been a huge part of i guess like integration of like okay what am i doing next like how do i get stuff out there i need to learn something new to move my experiences forward i think this has been a huge part of it is like learning this stuff and sometimes i get frustrated with where i'm like yeah like not like i'd rather just have somebody help me and do it and i realize that maybe we'll get there eventually where we get more like you know volunteers to help out with the project and whatnot to do more of the technical stuff are you seeking a volunteer right now possibly um yeah so it's it's been an interesting process to kind of shift away it's like yo doing do doing two things like in grad school for counseling and psychology but then also i joke around it's like i'm doing like an mba on the side learning how to do the business aspect of creating an online presence and and whatnot yeah my dad also teaches college courses and um he bemoans how how little like practical knowledge and skills the students get out of their college education yeah um so i think that undertaking a project on your own is like you know it's an even better way to learn a lot of times yeah i mean you really understand all aspects of things now which is awesome because then then when you get to the point of needing a volunteer you kind of understand what needs to be done um but yeah it's just totally different from what i'm used to but it's been cool you know i think we need to learn how to do different skills and or develop different skills and challenge ourselves to do different things you know because i think part of this movement is about getting stuff out there and education and but you know a lot of our psychonauts were just very maybe internal people and you know and i think that's that's kind of the thing that's kind of the thing that's kind of exploring our minds and we have a hard time getting things out there you know um yeah well or like i think sometimes when something gets out there really easily it has to do with money and it's it's a commodity right and people are pushing it because they're going to get money and in this way you know the the movement forms more slowly but in a stronger more sustainable way i think yeah people just give what they can um and it's all you know i think though we have our disagreements in the psychedelic community there is a common cause that we're not going to be able to solve but i try to stay connected to um and what's that it's freedom it's freedom from our past trauma it's cognitive freedom it's spiritual freedom and um freedom from the the destruction and the devastation that we we wreak on our natural environment and on on each other um it's using our skills and our tools for something that um you know is real not something that just feels good or looks good right now but something more lasting i like that seems like yeah spot on with what i'm thinking about too really with the movement that's that's why i think that we need to source from the folks in our community you know people want to to give and contribute and be part of this um this movement if you're listening you're part of the movement um and and it's not i i think the movement is just goes further far further than like legalizing psychedelics or even just making them medically available like those are obviously parts of it but i think that we don't even know the scope of where where this is going to go um yeah where would you like to see it go like what's your vision um i guess it would be like island or uh actually better the fifth sacred thing by starhawk do you know it no do you know starhawk she's a permaculturalist and activist um she was my permaculture teacher she does her course earth activist training and it's it's a permaculture design certificate but it's also social permaculture and and looking at um you know like zooming out zooming out zooming out and seeing you know from the from the microbes in the soil to like the people working together in a community and in her book the fifth sacred thing by starhawk do you know it no do you know starhawk she's a permaculturalist thing um there's like this society that they're like one of the last vestiges like they they grow their food they have counsel and they like moderate disagreement and there's like representation for everybody and and the whole rest of the world has been like demolished and it's like these like armies of all the soldiers are like drugged and they're dependent on these immune boosters otherwise they'll die if they don't get the immune boosters from you know this like um oppressive government so those soldiers are like drugged and they're dependent on these immune boosters otherwise they'll die if they don't get the immune boosters otherwise they're like drugged and they're dependent on these immune boosters otherwise come to take over you know like all the wonderful resources that have remained in this place that's actually cared for its land and it's the way that that community handles you know the the impending doom or the destruction the um the you know the takeover and and they handle it by saying there's a place for us at our table if you'll join us and of course the they just fucking shoot everybody in the head and like you know no we don't want to sit at your table we want your water give us your water and and that's just everyone keeps saying there's there's a place for you you know won't you join us um and so that's where i see this going hopefully something like that where we can stand together in love and in compassion for those that oppose us and and those that destroy that um those people need the most compassion and and to recognize how how we um can be more peaceful and more mindful yeah i definitely think more love is crucial yeah um yeah interesting are those some of the messages that you get from like a psychedelic experience whether breathwork or whatever you call psychedelic yes um this year it's been embodiment is is the thing i'm working on um yesterday someone was saying how i just um like i i'm just myself i i stretch if it feels good i'm like doing this doing that i don't care if anyone's watching and a long time ago i started realizing how i felt i had to apologize for my existence and we could go into what made me feel that way but what's important is that it was holding me back from being my fullest expression of myself which is you know for all the benefits that it has for the individual to just be themselves it benefits the people around you too yeah and especially the people you love if you're doing self-work it is an act of love for them as well i think about some friends that i have i have this one uh buddy who's just i wouldn't say out there but he's just very outgoing personality sometimes he can be a little over the edge but that's like if he didn't act like that you know like i appreciate that he's just purely himself and um some people it's a little over over you know too much energy but like that's what i like about him because he doesn't hold back and he's just like i'm just like i'm just like i'm just like i'm just like and i think yeah it's important to really embody who you are um yeah yes absolutely i agree embody who you are and for me i'm working on a more base level of embodiment right now um coming from you know more more years of my life than not having a difficult relationship with food and eating and body related things um and as i work through that i realize just like what a restriction it imposes on me and i'm like i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to do that the love that i can give out for me to still have um this like block so when i do breath work or when i work in altered states um what i'm what i'm feeling is um a sense of of embodying my form and and just having that be a clear experience not tainted by um uh like compulsions to to do something or to fix myself um but just recognizing that i'm not going to be able to do that i'm not this is this body is a a construction of of cells and molecules and atoms um that that forms together to provide a home for my consciousness um and the the more energy i spend on shaming or feeling uncomfortable in that space you know just the more restrictions are ultimately imposed on me so the breath work experience helps me to get inside and to be clear to be to be a clear channel so that the love you know that flows you know up and through me i can channel out and make it go as far as possible beautiful so i think we're almost about to an hour um i'm just having some like last minute thoughts of kind of wrapping things up in summary and you know i know we kind of went a little bit over the place with like feminism and creating psychedelic groups but i think it is also really related to one another with activism especially in the feminist movement you know there's a lot of activism there learning how to form these communities getting the voice out and then um especially with that eco-feminism like the nature aspect plant medicine and it's like how do we synthesize this and then create these communities and be channels for change and um so that's the way i just saw this conversation like sometimes i'm like okay where's this going but i also think that it's it was really relatable to the sense of like how do we build these communities and how do we get information out there even the little tangent on you know technology you know it's like this is stuff that i have to do to help form this and get information out there so um yeah those are just some last minute thoughts that i was thinking about as as we were coming to the end but um how about for you you got any last minute things yeah it made me think about um something my permaculture teacher said that has proved to be true which is the plants are easy it's the people that are hard the plants are going to do their thing and um if the plants you know they're not they're not always easy i mean they're especially not easy if you don't listen but if you listen um and that that means listening inside and listening outside and that's where the true knowing comes from i think to integrate you have to you have to listen and you have to be with be with it and to help someone else integrate you have to be with them in their experience and honor that um so i just want to emphasize like looking within to realize what is needed what do you need that keeps you from being your full self and then you know as you seek to to fill that recognize that seeing what is needed around you is another way to complete the self so if there's a place you know that you can be effective and you can help um then that might be the medicine that just just might be what you need like on this path it's easy to get to get selfish and like oh like i need to do the work i need to go and and then sometimes people go and and the medicine space is like you know you need to save the world and this is this is what you have to do this is your mission and and then that's what that is the medicine that people needed to to recognize that when we heal together you know we heal ourselves at the same time yeah beautiful thank you for that and so where can people find you um i am leah friedman lowell mass you can find me at life alive most days um but yeah on facebook or um search and join our group if you want boston entheogenic network other societies have contacted us like oh we noticed you have a we had like a survey of what kind of groups people want to do what events and um so other you know networks contact us join our group to see what we talk about and i'll be happy to get to know you and i'll be happy to see you um and coming soon to a digital platform near you probably a blog and podcast awesome the psychologist it'll be and i'll have to figure out how to make those words mine so other people can't use them or whatever that weird wizardry is of a tm or whatever you better buy the website yeah that's right well psychedelics today that's pretty fly like you guys got that we were shocked psychedelic problem and does ben have a facebook or is it just uh not facebook does ben have a website or just a facebook page we don't have a website yet um we have a mailing list that you can email us to get on it it's bentheogenic gmail.com all the funny puns possible so b-e-n-t-h-e-o-g-e-n-i-c at gmail.com say hi cool yeah and look out for this uh upcoming event in september sounds awesome yep oh yeah oh um and then i think that we're gonna have a 9 20 party in celebration of the visionary mushrooms in lol um yeah wednesday 9 20. so that'll be a very psychedelic week indeed awesome well thanks so much for chatting it's been awesome and thanks for inviting me up to do breath work and it's cool to just be in person and continue this conversation afterwards probably thank you kyle thank you for everything you've done thanks for holding the space for everybody yesterday thanks you so much for having me and i hope you have a great day and i'll see you next time bye bye bye so so so so so so so so so so Thank you. Thank you.