Legalism - When Rules Replace Relationship

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Dying to Live, a weekly podcast where we discuss theology, culture, and what it means to do life together. So let's get going with today's episode. (upbeat music) And we're still in Mosul Bay, another great podcast coming up from the Southern Cape. Are we in the Southern Cape? - We are in Mosul Bay and we've been wanting to get one of the guests. - We'll be on today for some time in Cape Town and eventually we decided we'll have to come to Mosul but hey, to give him on the show. - Absolutely, special trip just for that. A whole podcast road show for him. But before we get there, if you're listening for the first time, or if you're listening 100 times, please, won't you like, follow, share, share, comment on these podcasts, it just gets the message out further. - Right, I'm wearing Turner hosting and co-hosting with me is, still Nadine. - Still Nadine, no, the amazing Nadine. And we're so glad to be bringing this podcast from the spot of the world. Our subject, this one's a significant one. It's significant because we often come across it and we often be influenced by it and that is legalism and the two experts who are going to help us on this subject are Mike Doughfe. - All the way from Cape Town. - And if you've been on one more than one say. - Ah, yes. (laughing) - But our first time, and it's good to see it, we're gonna have them, but I've seen it for a long time. The Stefan Funds sale. - That's correct. - Yeah. - Welcome to the show the first time. - Thank you very much. - Tell us a little bit about yourself, Stefan. - This year, I'll actually be in Josie in 20 years. - Okay. - On the second of April, 2006, I walked through the doors in San Miguel for the first time. Be dragiled, pulled through the backswards through a bush. Honestly, I didn't even know if I was saved anymore. And yeah, God came and I'm glad today. - Yeah, it's been a journey. - It's been a bit of a snashly brush to you. - It's good, it's good. I did it. I really did it for radio. (laughing) - It's great to be at for radio. (laughing) - And married to Dibby. - I'm married to De Ran. And we have two daughters, yeah. Like 14 and 12. - And you serve on the Mosul Bay PM L-D-Ship team. - That's exactly, yeah. We are right now on this team, loving it. Loving it. Been five years in Mosul Bay. - Amazing. - Like the way you say right now, I'm here. I eat, could change. - It could change. - Yeah, we never know. (laughing) - We are talking about legalism today. And yeah, I'm not gonna do a big intro. But what does it look like when following Christ becomes more about rules than relationship? How do we pursue obedience and holiness without losing sight of grace? So these are some of the things that we're gonna grapple with today. And it's a big topic. So I wanna waste any more time on the intro. Let's jump in. And maybe a first question, just to frame the conversation. How would you define legalism in a biblical context? Mike, let's start with you. - For me to be the belief that our salvation depends upon obedience to rules and Bible laws, where I have to obey in order to please God and that I can earn favor with God if I were God enough. That would be the just of legalism. So it's a striving. It's a, you know, the Bible does speak about effort. And so we have to often strive in the best possible way. But it's a kind of striving that actually is linked to salvation that I can somehow earn the favor of God that I can obey my way into his good book. So to speak. And it's very pervasive actually, especially if you come from a traditional background where you feel like you've had to take all the boxes in order to please God. And of course that's not salvation at all. It says nothing to do with the gospel of grace. But also even if people get saved and sometimes we can drift into a workspace an earning type of our way to salvation. - Just about to ask, what does that look like after post salvation because I understand thinking you need to work in order to in salvation, but what does legalism look post salvation? - So I think where we start taking our eyes off Jesus and we start depending upon our own effort in order to be pleasing to God. So again, - To stay in these good books. - To stay in these good books. So it's whenever we say it's Jesus plus I need something else in order to find favor with God. And here there is a line. So I think over it we'd probably have to unpack this carefully of what this doesn't mean. But whenever I add, you know what is salvation and working on salvation? As a Christian is a disciple of Jesus, I am fully depending upon Jesus for not only my salvation but my sanctification or my, the way I become mature and holy in the Lord is you need Jesus. You need to depend upon Him. And so when you start to rely on other things and you lean on those things and you put your faith in those things, even if they're legitimate, we can cross the line over into finding trust outside of Jesus. And we'll unpack that as this goes along because obviously there can be a minefield. We're not saying that we shouldn't - Yes, because you mean - Fall to certain things outside of Jesus. - And you were using language like in order to please God. But of course we do want to please God, don't we? - Absolutely. - To our obedience and through our, it's a different, maybe you can jump in, what is the difference between a being God and wanting to please God, which I hope is our desire as Christians and what we're talking about today, which is legalism. - Let me say the term legalism, the word, is nowhere in the Bible. It's never used. But it is something that we see that people do. And it's differently the way that the Pharisees try to obtain certain things, and do certain things to say, well, I'm a better person than you. I want to admit this. This is quite an interesting quote that I heard. And it says this, "Legalism is treating something which is good as though it were essential." So I think sometimes we can repeat that. It says, "Legalism is treating something which is good as though it were essential." I think so often we want to make something essential in our salvation and it's not essential. So exactly what Mike said is that Jesus plus. I want to add to my salvation and everything has been done and completed. Yes, we say Jesus is tetalistite, it is finished, it's all done. But there is that working out of a salvation every single day as we walk with Him. It's not like I'm saved. In the back of the day we used to say, you're on the glory train and bound for heaven. And I'm my blessed assurance. And I think so often we want to believe that, but then there's the flip side of that coin where people want to work out their salvation by earning things, by doing things, but just by reading more Bible. - Bending what? - Bending what? - Better quiet time. - Yeah, a better quiet time. I mean, this. - But is ordered to achieve what? - To achieve, I don't know, I think a greater salvation, which I'm like, but it's complete. You can't earn a greater salvation. How great a salvation have we got? You know, what is it that Jesus has done? What more? And I think we crucified Christ, maybe sometimes if we start doing that again and we take him back to the cross and it's done, it's complete. So it's not a once a year sacrifice that needs to be done like the Old Testament that we had to, it's done. Yeah, maybe to clarify. I think we are in dangerous territory. If you begin to think, well, okay, I got saved. Now I'm securing my salvation. And now I've got to really obey you Lord and work hard as a Christian now. And the foolish Galatians did, wasn't it? - Yeah, but it's separating. And I think to understand salvation is both an event and a journey. It's a process. So, you know, I couldn't just rely on that. I depended upon Jesus and put my faith in him. The day I got saved, I have to depend on Jesus fully every single day. We have fusion between. We have to lean on him every single day. And so, you know, yes, we need to be loving the local church. We need to love the Word of God. We need to be the Lord for that. But that's fruit to a life lived of faith in Jesus. And when I have that, like I love what's different, say that when that's essential, the other good things flow from what's essential. But when we get the order wrong and we think, okay, I need to now pray more because that is going to somehow earn me credit before the Lord in a sense of my standing with God. It's like, no, your standing with God, your approval before the Lord is based on the obedience of another man. Not your own obedience of Christ. Do you think I'm just trying to get to the reasons why we slip into that mindset? Because I think if we can get to the root of it, that might be helpful. But do you think sometimes people hear the gospel and they respond to the gospel and get saved? But there's a hope that if I really work for the Lord or whatever, then maybe I'll feel more loved. So, So people struggle with this concept of maybe, yeah, they don't feel loved. And they think the more they work for God, the harder they're gonna work for God, the more they're gonna feel loved and feel accepted when the reality is that God's already proven, He's great love for us on the cross. And we only need to look to the cross to know how loved we are. - The Bible's clear, it's here's the justle of my face. The justified, those that are just as if we've never sinned, those will walk by faith and live by faith. So it's a daily walk. I always say, you know, Hebrews 11 and 1, it's here's now faith. Now faith is the substance and the evidence. So what is that substance and evidence that we have? Well, it's a completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Is that enough or is there, so my faith is not, my obedience comes from a place because I'm walking by faith, not because I need to be obedient. And in order because I'm obedient, He'll love me more. - Exactly. - You'll do more for me. And I'll be accepted more by Him. I am completely accepted in the beloved, completely. - We get back into James' territory of works. And if I do something, if I don't, to some shame your faith, I'll show you my works, show me your works, I'll show you my faith. So you start getting into some dangerous territory. - Well, well, faith is, we are saved by faith alone. I think it was Luther that said, we are saved by faith alone. - Faith alone. - But true faith is never alone. So what pleases God is faith. What we are saved by is faith. And faith is simply our attitudes. It's the hand reaching out to God and God pulls us out and the Lord through Jesus and the work of Jesus that does so. So we can maybe get into obedience as a hard flow of faith, but it doesn't produce faith. - So what is obedience? - What is obedience if you had to define it? - I was asking, what is obedience then? Because we can easily throw these terms around and just assume that we own the same page with what it is. But what is obedience then? - So obedience would be following what Jesus has said and what the Bible has said. So it's doing what God has said. - Why? - And so because we love Him. And so because we love Him and because He's a King and He's Lord, doing what He wants and setting our lives to His agenda and His rules so to speak, or His laws, which is to love one another and love God with all of our hearts and to obey Him. That kind of thing is, you know, God has set that in, and for human flourishing, so it helps us to live well. So probably as an expression of our trust as well, believing that He knows best and therefore we obey. - No. - The commands the rules that He's given. So it's not in order to own, but it's actually because we trust. - Well, I mean, John 14 says, "If you love me, you keep my commands." So any obedience isn't, every time we want to. It's the same as, you know, when my kids, if I demand obedience from them and when they were young and, you know, yes, it was a value I wanted to teach them, but I wanted their desire to do what dad has asked them to do, not micromanage them, but to become a certain kind of person and to do certain types of things in their character. I wanted them to do it. If I asked them to do some things because they respect me and they love me and isn't that the way God works as well? It's, it's, it flows from a relationship of faith and trust and love. - I wanted to add with that as well. And what Mike just said is that, I think the operative word is, is, "legalism will demand." That's what legalism does. It always demands something. You need to earn it and it demands to do it. - Do you? - And I think this thing is, this thing of love is that we do everything as unto the Lord. We do it for him because he loved us first. John tells us as well. And because he loved me, I want to reciprocate. And actually fact, I didn't even know how to love. (laughs) He gave me love. He brought love. He is love. God is love. He came, love came down, died on across. And because of that, I want to obey him. I want to follow him. I want to please him. That's my children. They do exactly the same. If you love me, you'll obey me. But I mean, I'm not even putting a demand on that. I think sometimes we can even have a question mark if you love me. And we can even do that with people. If you commit it, then you'll obey. I don't know if that is, if we put legalism on people, I know we're going in a different direction now. But we can put stuff on people. Jesus never demanded what he didn't pay, what he'd already gave. You can only, he gave us love. We love because he loved us first. And therefore I obey, but legalism will demand it. It's a hard, it's a hard task master. You mention about legalism not mentioned in the Bible, but Jesus did speak into legalism. Absolutely. Jesus addressed this problem. Because he constantly talks about commanding. Yeah. Of course we command obedience, but he does speak. So yes, I'm the interesting. I think Jesus just went totally countercultural. Totally. He just healed on the Sabbath. And that freaked everybody out. He did quite controversial things. He, because people were more important to him than the law. So he said a new example rather than teaching into legalism. Absolutely. He just did stuff. He's just being Jesus. You know, he said that it's not the stuff that you do on the outside, he says to them, but it's the stuff that you do on the inside that defiles you. These are just examples of what he just said. He said the traditions. He says to the Pharisees, your traditions are nullifying the power of God. You keep to these things. He says, in actual fact, he gets to a point, he says to them, you tith, you do all of those things. And it's right that you do that. You tith from you, cumin, you're dull, you, all those things and your spices. But at the end of the day, you forget to neglect to even look off to the orphans and the widows. And you know how to keep the law perfectly. But at the end of the day, this is not what it's about. There's a new, I want to say, there's a new law in town. And that was Jesus. Like an issue I've been doing down, I like it. Yeah, to that, there's a scripture in Luke 18, where Jesus tells a parable of two men. And it's the religious man, the Pharisee, who was very law-biting. You know, really good churchgoer, very devoted, very generous, seemed to tithe a lot. He fasted. He prayed a lot. And then you have this other guy, the text collector, who represents the broken sinner, who got everything wrong the whole time. And actually, the whole point of the story, which is shocking, is that how it was the man who was the sinner, who ended up to be right with God, not the religious man. And the issue that Jesus took, it took point at the Jewish religious people of the day, was that it wasn't so much that they were striving to keep the law, was that they forgot God behind the law. And they began to trust in their own effort, rather than trusting in the Lord. He was quite radical. Yeah, because he, for example, he was very-- if you look at that story, the man-- and this is, I think, for me, I've been convicted on this, where I began to trust in my own. And I congratulate myself of how spiritual I am. Wow, you know, I've prayed so much this week. And I began to feel this sense of pride, actually. It's all right. I pray three hour quiet times. Self-righteousness. And I began to have a sense of my own self-importance and actually take my eyes off Jesus. And I'm so focused on what I've done. And I've done this this week. And I've done that. And I think that's an example of a legalistic person in the sense that you're putting your trust in what you've done instead of what he has done. That's so helpful, because I often think the Pharisees, they-- in the heart of what they wanted to please God. Totally. Zealous for God's ways. But it's the how. How they went about it that became the issue. As you say, relying on their own efforts, even while their heart was to please God. And that's how it can slip into our own hearts. Our hearts may be Lord, I want to-- I want to please you. But then we fall back on self, self-effort. Yeah. But Paul understood this better than anyone else. Have you been a Pharisee or Pharisees? Because you alluded to Mike about Galatians. I mean, he develops this whole legalism thing quite to quite a large degree within the New Testament. Yeah, because the Galatians section is probably the most well-known portion in the New Testament. And I'd encourage you if you're listening to this, to go back in the next week or so and read just the book of Galatians, take an easy translation like the NLT and just read through it in one or two sittings and try and-- because that gives you a good idea of what they try to add to a relationship with Jesus. And like Stefan was saying earlier, you're taking something that you think it's Jesus plus. In their case, it was circumcision, which is a valid thing if you're a Jew. You had to be circumcised. But they made that central to their faith. I need this to be pleasing to God now. It's like, no, you don't. It's-- you've lost sight of Jesus who saves you. So why then is it Timothy who Paul said he needed to be circumcised as well in order to go to? Yeah. Then why the. - He seemed it to dip all. - Peter did rebuke it. - Demand that all. - Well not for that. Yeah. (laughing) Well that was because he needed to evangelize to the Jews. - But wasn't he adding to it? Wasn't he saying, "No, it's Jesus bless." Wasn't going back to the very thing that Jesus was saying is no longer necessary. - But he didn't do it in order to please God. He did it because it was a practical necessity of being with the Jews and being set to them among the Jews. So it was-- - Same for you. - If you read it, if you read the context, it was nothing to do with him ticking a box before God. He was doing it before man, not before God. - Okay, so it doesn't seem to be to rebuke him about that. - No, no, not that. Not at all. - Okay. - No. - What did he rebuke him about? - Peter, a poor rebuke's Peter in Galatians for eating-- - Oh yeah. - For no longer from separating himself from the Jews. - Yes, that's right. - From the Gentiles because he was fearful of the Jews. So he got rebuke for people pleasing. - Right. - Maybe that's taking us down a different route, but I was just reading that scripture about Timothy's a concision the other day and just actually thinking through some of these things and thinking, well, now if you're saying, I'm doing this in order in a sense to please the people to make Timothy, isn't he now becoming a people pleasing? Instead of a God pleasing? Like it seems complicated in some ways. If we're saying we're free of those things, those things no longer-- - It feels like an adding to it in some way. - Does it have a spiritual significance or does it have a cultural significance? Maybe that's what you need to ask. - Exactly. So let's use a modern example. If you're a leader in the church, one of the things I personally have a rule about, you know, I'm using that with, you know, high-period comments, in quotes, that I preach, I never preach in shorts. And I always will preach. I'll try and look-- - But you've got got some in shorts now. (laughing) - The golden calf is under the table. No one's gonna worship it from behind here, so don't worry. (laughing) For me, it's the white leg. (laughing) So-- - Okay, back on track. - But the point is, like, I have a, but it's to consider people. So I'm not bound by that. And I'm not trying to somehow get spiritual credit because of that I'm wearing nice clothes, that I'm doing because I don't want to fend people or I don't want to room, I don't want there to be an obstacle for the gospel. And I think that's what happened with Paul and Timothy. He's like, I need you to be circumcised because there's a-- - Golden bridge. - It's a cult. Integrate yourself into culture. It's got nothing to do with the spiritual acceptance before God. - Could you have a great-- - And there's a big difference. - Could you have a great death in modern times when you're going out to each, say, Malawi, please cover up your tattoos. And I mean, you know, yeah, it's quite acceptable, but when you're going to another culture, so he was doing the same thing. - I don't even know how acceptable he is. I think it's something that I even mentioned, yeah. That's something that we can do is also his questions. Maybe, you know, legalism versus just being a stumbling block. Like, when do you become a stumbling block? You know, he says, you can eat it and you permit it to eat it in foods. But for the sake of the one that's weaker-- - Yeah. - So-- - You limit your own freedom. - You limit your own freedom. I mean, is that legalism? - I'm just limiting your freedom. I'm just like you, Mike. I do not preach. I have tattoos on my legs. So I don't, I struggle not to wear my slip-slops, but even that in certain contexts. - So that's not because some would say that's obeying the traditions of man. - Oh, yeah. - But you're saying, well, is it, or is it just a limitation of my own freedom for the sake of actually reaching the audience, which is a good incentive for-- - Being sensitive. - The motive is love. So if the motive is love towards someone else, you, that is pleasing to God. But we talking about, I think legalism's often, in we talking in the context of our relationship with God, so it's an upward relationship. And obviously it does work itself out sometimes. We can put things on people that God doesn't put on them. But in this case-- - Mike, just, I'm just so sorry, I took a step a bit of a road at all. - You did? - But I'm coming back to Galatians. Was there anything that you wanted to add there in terms of how Galatians helps us in our understanding of legalism and what it means to add to? - Yes. So I think for the Galatian Christians who had come out of Judaism, there were still Jews, but where they had to now put their faith fully in the person of Jesus to be saved. And to walk out their salvation is, what's interesting is Paul says, you started in the Spirit, but now you're ending in the flesh. So they started by pleasing God with faith in Jesus. So their attitude was like, I'm trusting fully in what Jesus has done for me to be pleasing to God. And then the art flow of that is obedience and falling the Lord and obeying and trying to do what he says in the Word. But then they drifted into kind of a ticking the boxes, especially then having to be circumcised. And maybe today we don't struggle with that with Western Christians. Obviously we're not gonna go and practice that. But maybe for us it would be, I need to have a quiet time every morning. And I need to read my Bible and pray every morning. And that begins to replace circumcision. So, and we're, now again, that's a good thing to do. And in some ways you can be religious about that. I think it's always good to, we're not talking about having a feeling here. But it's more in terms of-- - But do you wait not to be disciplined about it? - Yeah, so we're not talking about discipline, but there's a motive of the heart that you're saying, oh, if I'm mistreating my Bible today, then I've lost some kind of favor before God. And then you falling into a legalistic trap because you becoming driven in your relationship with God. - So does legalism often go accompanied with fear? You would say. - Totally. It's the fruit of legalism, fear, anxiety. If you're an anxious Christian or fearful Christian before God and you always feel, I'm a stupid, you know, and again, we want to have the disciplines of the faith, of course. But if you're leaning and relying on that to somehow have some approval before God, you don't understand the gospel. - So how does it manifest itself in like Josh Jent? I mean, we think we're a charismatic church. We, we, the gifts-- - Graceful to-- - Yes, graceful, all the gifts are manifest, but are we are impacted? - I want to say, I wanted to just add on to that as some modern expressions, I think would be things like do's and don'ts lists. Don't do this. - Can you make it more practical, Stim? I'm giving you examples. - I'm putting you on this spot. - He's going to. - I'm going to. Don't date. Do we see it in the Bible? Is there grace for that? How did you say that? How did you bring it across to the person? What did that person, yeah? Where's that person's faith at this moment? What do you, because once you just say that thing don't, you've just made a law. If we have little do's and don'ts lists, don't do this, don't go see this, don't, we cannot put anything on people that the Bible, we can't go beyond the boundaries of Scripture. We cannot. So we were-- - No, we were legalism and big legalism. It's all the same thing. - It's legalism. I don't think there is. - So there may be wisdom in some of these things for a particular person. - Absolutely. - Absolutely. - But we can't demand it as you see. - No, we cannot laud it over them. - At all, because once you start lauding, it becomes a law. Once you say, this is the essential, and it's not the essential. The essentials for me is Jesus Christ and in crucified. There's no other essentials. Grace is for me the essential. Love is the essentials. But these are good things. I'm not discarding good things, but I am not focusing, hyper focusing, maybe on some of these things. - That's how language rather say something like, I would find it unhelpful to do something, but don't say, no, you can't. - Here's an instance. I have tattoos. But for some people, they shouldn't get it. - Hmm. - They shouldn't. - Because they might have a tendency to go overboard. They have a addictive nature. And it becomes addictive. And all they do is just get more tattoos, more tattoos and more tattoos. And it just becomes stuff that they just put on themselves. There's no significance to it anymore. That would be a suggestion, be careful, that you are drifting towards that. I mean, the language I choose is very important, I think. Well, especially as a leader, I think. That's for me is just. - And particularly as you say, when it becomes something that's qualifying or disqualifying. - Absolutely. - Because isn't that why we, people can feel that sense of now if I've found it and your fear and then disapproval and judgment, which are often the things that go along with veganism. I mean, I think as some other fruit would be control. - Yeah. - Pride. - Yeah. - Your mic maybe can speak into that. - Lack of love. People that are very obedient, but there's a drivenness about them where they are very proud of the fact that they're so committed. I find often they lack love and they judge others. Like you not as committed as we are. Well, you don't fast as much as we do. - Self-righteousness. - It's a self-righteousness. It's actually the worst kind of sin. And I think that's why we're talking about legalism because it's not, yeah, definitely the dos and don'ts. But I think because we're a church that's so values devotion and we value sacrifice and you know, don't love. And but we can drift into treasuring that more than the person. - I'm dying more than the person Jesus. - Jesus. - Yeah, do you know how much I'm being devoted? Why aren't you devoted like I am? And then you drifted into a ferrous cycle kind of unloading to devotion. - Yeah. Yeah, and rather than devotion is actually free. of just loving Jesus and that's having a revelation of the gospel and being full to the spirit. We've all been guilty of that. You know, I'm just thinking as you speak, you know, in the last five years I've missed church once. You know, when we call to be devoted and not forsaken the assembly of saints, it's a very bad quote on it. So can you, yeah, I was just about, oh, it's going to become a way to measure our spiritual worth. Well, if you think somebody's worth is accounted to them for how much they do and keep our values and traditions, that that's when it becomes legalism. When you say, when for that person to be right with God, he needs to do this because then it's Jesus plus immediately of just done that. It's the outflow values that you keep to adhere to devote to look, if you buy something, if you buy a laptop, there's a value that is added to that laptop and you decide in your heart, what are it's not sometimes it's not brand, it's a value that you add to that. And for me, it needs to become a revelation of value to people and they will pay the price for a value, not for me telling them that is a valuable laptop. And I'm going to be like this salesman trying to constantly tell the people, this is a value, keep to it, buy it, go for it, devote to it. So I want to post the letter scenario again. We see in the bubble that God expects faithfulness devotion. How can leaders encourage people into a life of faithfulness devotion, not for taking the gathering of the saints, whatever it might be without putting legalism on them. What's the difference? And that is the great skill of leadership, isn't it? And the way you do it is you give the why and not just the what. In other words, you don't just say this is what we should do, we should be devoted, we should. And it's not wrong to do that because you're painting a picture of Paul does that, he said, you shouldn't commit sexual immorality, you should live in the light, you should be kind to one another, gentle-hearted, you shouldn't speak badly, etc. So he has those things. But we should also give the why and the need for what. In other words, we have to say why are we expecting you, why is God expecting you to do this? Because we are leading people to obedience and that must show itself an outward fruit. But the why means let's unpack the gospel, let's unpack, for example, what comes behind that truth. I'm trying to think of an example. For example, even with dating, the two example of dating, like I think a lot of modern dating is super unwise, right? And I know it's definitely a degree with that. So and we could use different terms, core, ten and stuff. But we do have people catching a bunch among us. But rather than saying don't it, I'd rather say, well, have you considered again, what is your aim? Do you do your desirpurity? Do you know God wants you to be holy? So what does that look like in your relationship? So I'm just giving the rule of saying, well, you shouldn't because not wise, you're giving the heart behind it. Because God is a holy God. And he wants us to be different from the world. And being a follower of Jesus means that I'm also set my heart apart for him. And he brings the right people across. So there you kind of showing the beautiful big picture of the why, which then that kind of inspires someone to want to obey God. People catch the heart values quicker than they have the you must do this. I think it was a old bubble teacher once who said a slave obeys because he has to, but a son obeys because he wants to. And part of skillful leadership is helping people to want to obey. Yeah. And will you make it attractive to obey? And that's what Jesus is. This is modeling that that important because of our values as a common leader, being a church every Sunday. And that value is will be, will find its way through the whole community you're leading. No, definitely. And it does take time to, you know, I think it is good to measure fruitfulness. You have to, I mean, it's actually a scripture in two Corinthians. It says, examine yourself to see whether you're in the faith. So we will say, well, where is your devotion? So if you are in Jesus, the fruit of it is you'll love people more, you will be more generous, you'll tire, you'll read your Bible. So I think the fact that you can be honest with yourself and have a look at your own life and the fruit, the evidence of the tick boxes in a way, but you don't find favor with God by doing the tick boxes. It's simply an evidence of the fact that you already have favor with God. And the us who trust in Jesus. I also not to tick the boxes to find favor with other people, with your leaders or whatever that's, which is, that's also form of legalism. Yeah, that's a hard one because you're often want to, not as you receive the fact, but you want to please in a way you want to show that commitment, that devotion, but there's that line you can't step across. I wouldn't call that legalism, but maybe it will be a form of it, but maybe just fear of man, people pleasing. Yeah, maybe it's still fun. Have you ever struggled with legalism personally? I think there were moments, you know, you can become legalistic in a way of, I remember as a young Christian, I could never put my Bible on the ground. I couldn't. Okay. I was like, you can't do it. It's too holy. It's too holy. It's how we grew up in Africa. Exactly. Your Bible was always on some sort of a shelf. And actually fact, you could go into most houses and still see that same Bible, very dusty on that shelf. It was never taken off the family Bible. You know, the family Bible, it's there and it was sacred. So I remember somebody wants to through a Bible on the floor and I was appalled. I was like, wow, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't. Right now my Bible is probably. Because it's the Father, the Son and the Holy Scripture. I mean it's not a book. So yeah, there was there was definitely a time where I regarded sit and think, certain, you know, you can quickly do this. You can go, I only read because Jesus read the King James Bible. So the King James Bible is the only Bible. You know. Ophatalan. The city through me. You've got to read that one. So you can go quickly to that. And I'm like, no, we just bound ourselves to something. And yes, is there something to the Bible, to the book? Yes, they later say, but it's a spirit that gives us the life on those words. Underlining even in your Bible, that can become very legalistic. No, no, no, no, no, I cannot do that. I cannot write in my Bible. So yeah, I have done that. Sorry. And Mark, for you are there areas in your own life if you had to reflect where either in the past or some things that you still have to watch out for? Totally. I think I struggled a lot with performance mentality after I got saved, where I felt that I had to really perform in terms of be very faithful with reading the Bible for extended periods of time as a young Christian praying a lot. And if I missed that one of those slots, I felt condemned, I actually felt like God was far from me. And I put so much emphasis on my own obedience that I lost sight of actually again, what Jesus had done for me. So I used to swing quite a lot from extreme pride and self-righteousness down to feeling absolutely condemned. And my early Christian life is probably just for every young Christian, you know, you kind of have these extreme highs and lows. How did you find freedom in that? Finally, over time, I think just reminding myself of the gospel, just reminding yourself, the Bible says that the gospel is the power of God into salvation for those who believe. And those who, the idea is continue to believe, you know, it's an ongoing faith. And what I do now is I find I'm a lot more constant because I know that it doesn't depend upon me doing certain things. I know that I'm loved because of what Jesus has done, His sacrifice and obedience. And I find I'm way more fruitful now. I pray, you know, and read my Bible more in many ways. Because of that structured way. Yeah. How do you, so you want to say so? No, I used to read the Bible. And fall asleep. And then next morning you wake up and you realize I didn't pray. I didn't ruin my Bible. And maybe I'll do a double as much tonight. I'll fast. And then tonight the same thing happens. And you just perpetuate that. And then you just crash. And then eventually you just say, "Glory, forgive me." But how do you lead people out of this? I mean, you said your own personal reflection, but how do you lead as a leader, a decan and elder? Do you lead them out of it? Again, like what Paul did, we learned from the letters of Paul. He was quite strong with giving instruction. But in the beginning of his letters, it's theology first, then practice, theology practice. And so part of it is we should give good understanding of what Jesus has done. We have the Bible says we don't for same family of saints. And then you. Yeah, so if you're preaching on that, for example, you know, if you're preaching on commitment, I would try and always say we do so because because actually God is committed to us and we simply respond to Him by learning how to be committed like here. So I'm always pointing back to what God has done. And personally we should make more of the gospel. I think we can humble that. - Absolutely. - You know, it's not just the doorway to the Christian faith. It's actually the oxygen we breathe. - Yeah. - While we walk, it's the floor of our faith. It's not just the front door of our faith. And I think we have, that was for me the game changer of why I began to change. Like I'm not making enough of Jesus. I'm making it too much about myself. - I agree. - It's a danger for all of us. - I needed to fall in love with Him. Not with the rituals, not with the things. Because reading the Bible is great, but that was just one form of hearing His voice. Talking to Him, it wasn't a ritual. It was me spending time with my Savior, with my lover. The lover, when I fell in love with Him, I didn't fall in love with Him. I got saved. And then your young Christian walk is performance. It's a lot of performance. It's a lot like marriage. I think you're first few years. You wanna please, please, please. And then you just get relaxed with that person and start growing in that relationship. And I grew in a relationship with Him. I fell in love with Him. Not just the things of Him, but with Him. - And again, I love the knowledge of a marriage, knowing that you've already been chosen. This person has already chosen to use. - Absolutely. - The performance, brushing the sins, is off-weighed. It's okay. Then we're gonna keep growing. And that's a beautiful analogy. So, Acheol, guys, what a fruitful conversation. And I think so good. Just reminded of Scripture, what's Psalm 139. Search Mahara Lord. And even just to continuously bring our hearts before the Lord. And Lord, are the traditions of men that I'm elevating above actually, just the reality of what you've done for me. At the cross and how that shapes my identity. So, Acheol, what a joy. - I'm always amazed how we find life in subjects. When you use the word legalism, how we're gonna address this, but there's real life in this, absolutely discussion. - And in another one, we should talk about license on the other end of this spectrum. - Absolutely. - Because we tend to swing. And so it is important that we do give the other side. We're not saying that we shouldn't be living in the laws of devotion and obedience. Obedience is the goal of Matthew 28 of being a disciple of Jesus. But it's what it's rooted in. - Absolutely. - Be holy as our Mali. That wasn't a suggestion that God made. That was a command, right there. How do I live that out? - In a relationship. - I feel like there's a sequel coming up. I don't even know if it's a sequel. - I don't even know if it's a sequel. - The Elizabeth Lices. - Guys, thank you so much for joining us. - First time? - Yeah, I really appreciate it. - Good things come out of muscle bay. (laughing) (upbeat music) - That's it then for this edition of the Dying To Live Podcast, tune in again every week at www.joshjen.co.z. forward slash Dying To Live. We're also on Apple Podcasts Google Play, tune in radio, Spotify, I Heart Radio, and many other podcast sites. So wherever you're listening to this podcast, please subscribe, leave comments, and click on the like button. 'Til next time then, from the team, it's goodbye and God bless. (upbeat music)