Leading Without Armor: Vulnerability, Masculinity & Modern Leadership with Jon Bassford

Jon Bassford on Vulnerability and Type A Leadership Hi, John, welcome. I'm so excited to have you today. I'm man's catalyst leaving the change. Why don't you share a little about yourself right now? Speaker 2 Sure. As you said, my name is Jon Bassford. I own the company Lateral Solutions. It's a consulting company and we work with the business owners, founders, and leaders at the intersection of operations, leadership, mindset and culture to truly grow in scale. I think that focusing on those three areas and where they overlap with excellence is where organizations really shine. Speaker 1 Wow, that's amazing. And as a male and a leader in this industry, what has been the most defining challenge you've faced and how is it reshape the kind of man and leader you are today? Speaker 2 Sure. I, I think it's always tricky, right, as leaders in general, man or woman or expect to, to have all the answers and to solve all the problems and be the person that that deserves the money, the title, the salary, everything else, right. And it takes vulnerability to be able to tap in the perspectives of others around you and to not act like you have all the answers. I think throughout my career I've worked with some very type A personalities that they didn't always get that right. And I was certainly tried to throughout my career, try to almost re engineer that right to see what didn't work from a leadership ego standpoint and wouldn't work from a culture standpoint, to re engineer that to, to find a better way to connect with people and employees and lead a different way. Speaker 1 Wow, that's amazing. Now you said Type A. When you talk about a Type A, what are you looking for? What do you have you seen in the behavior patterns of these males? What's their armor that they wear? Speaker 2 Sure. It's, it's, there's a couple of things. I think it's really come out from what I've seen. Part of it is even just the mindset of I want people to think just like me. I want to hire a bunch of clones of myself because what's really behind that is have all the answers, right? I'm the one, the only one who can run this business, make things happen, solve these problems or any ideas, right? And it, it get, it takes some vulnerability to, to step back and say, I don't know everything. And really in a business, you shouldn't know everything, right? You should not know the insurance and outs of every aspect of your business or you're a way to in the weeds. But the that's that ego of wanting everyone to be just like you. What it results in is stripping people of their secret sauce. They bring their perspectives, their personality, their intellectual capabilities, operational capabilities, which may be different than yours, but can bring different ideas. Speaker 1 Wow that's amazing. Do you think it strips their ability to be curious because it causes more of a subjective viewpoint as a terms to an objective? Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I think it's yes, 100%. When again, when you have to have all the answers, know all the answers, everything has to come through. You know, the way I look at that is you're creating AC team because you're not good at everything. No matter what you think you're good at, you're not good at everything. And, and yes, it, it's, it's strips that natural element of curiosity to, to tap into other things, right, to tap in other perspectives, to tap in other ideas. One of the exercises I do from executive boardroom standpoint, it is helping people solve problems by only asking questions. When we don't have enough curiosity in how we're tackling day-to-day functions and strategies and problems, we're very quick to say things like we've tried that before that will never work. We don't have a budget. We shoot things down before those ideas ever have a time or a chance to really formulate to see what it could be. And that's one reason I love that exercise with executives and teams is it strips down that that need to jump to an immediate solution and allows for that curiosity to go throughout the entire group. Removing Emotional Ties and Balancing Work-Life Leadership Yeah, it's so important to have that pause. There's a lot where a lot of people say I can't jump to and I can't before I can't because they're not looking out. People say look outside the box, they're not getting rid of the box. I think we become more of a boxed in society, especially with all the electronics out there and social media, which in term, I think has also really put men in the shadow, especially CE OS and leaders, the founders of the companies. Because the fear of if they are heard of judgement like to actually, I feel that they're being judged. They feel they're being judged and then they're not enough and afraid to speak that on their mind that I'm frustrated and I have a lot. I'm caring. But also to remove the emotional tie you have to the situation is imperative, I feel. What about you from your experience? Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I think that's, I think we get so wrapped up and our identities being our personal identities, being our roles, our jobs, our positions, and to remove that personal attachment, it requires us to step aside. And this is 1 aspect of who I am, right? This is not my entire being. Look, as someone who has always been a go getter in my career, wanted to take things to the next level. I get it. I, if someone were to ask me, John, who are you? I would start with what I do for a living in my accomplishments, right? That's naturally what I would do, but there's other elements to that it we have to learn to do that. And I think for me, when I was AW2 employee even #2 COOVP of operations, I care greatly A stepping to a consultant role where I am not there every day. I have to trust my clients that they're going to take. They can take my advice or not right it. It's really kind of taught me to to really step back and not take things as personally, not carry the weight. And we didn't do that as leaders across the board. We can't make things happen. We can't make results happen. The only thing we can do day in and day out is do the things we need to get to generate the results and let the chips fall as they may. And I think that's an important feature for leaders. There's something else I was going to talk about, like I wouldn't have that tangent there. Speaker 1 Well, it doesn't matter. Keep it real. Let's go. Speaker 2 Yeah, just there's another point I wanted to make and it is not coming, but it'll help. Speaker 1 Me later, it's a brain fart. I like to keep it real and bring some heroin. But I've talked a lot about the struggles and with men, especially in leadership roles and vulnerability and especially the leadership is self Leadership is defined, I believe is the first space that men go into. But in that role, there are some condition responses so deep in the paradigm that men don't even realize in roles like when you said you were the number two man, you were the number two man at work, but you're the number one man at home for a sun, right? And there is so much writing on someone's shoulders and that ability to lead at work the same way you lead at home and find this mindful balance is so hard. How do you do that nowadays? How do you stay grounded and clear? Speaker 2 Sure, yeah. And as an entrepreneur who doesn't have a nine to five job, that's probably one of the hardest things in, in, in having a son and a young son, quite frankly, it's I adapted some of my leadership mantras that I deal with a leadership and consulting side to my with my son, which is part of a being a leader is admitting when you make mistakes, that sort of thing. And that's somebody I adopted with my son. But how can I expect my son to take responsibility for his actions if my blowing up at him because I'm busy working, he has a question. I don't take ownership of that, right? I have to apologize to him and say, hey, look, that's on daddy, I'm busy, I'm frustrated. That's not your fault. And and that's I've always found that by challenging yourself and admitting your flaws in leadership or parenting, whatever it may be, it helps you not repeat them. A little little thing that I was trying to do for my mindfulness journey is I always found myself being frustrated, whatever I was yelling and cussing a lot in my car while I'm driving. The people don't know it, right? I'm not, they can't hear me, but I'm like, that's just negative energy I am putting out in the world for no reason whatsoever. I'm not changing anything. So here's why I started doing When I'd catch myself yelling at someone, I would apologize to them. Again, they can't hear it but little day by day I was yelling and cussing a lot less for my driving because it was I was conditioning myself. This isn't needed it like that. You're not changing anything. You're not helping yourself, you're not helping them. You're not helping the traffic. And so by by having some humility and some vulnerability that we are not perfect, admit our flaws verbally even to no one in a car or to your son, to your spouse, to to your Co workers, your direct reports goes a long way in helping change behavior. The Armor Men Wear: Trust, Touch, and Professional Boundaries Yeah. What about behavior change? Where what do you think is extreme and passive in a leadership role and how it's hard for, I think for a man, the lines, the boundaries are the lines are so undefined and blurred nowadays. It's so I was having a conversation earlier with a gentleman and I was talking about the love languages and the feeling of touch, right? So a man in a leadership role, like when you were CEO and there may have been a woman and you went up and this was out of when I say love, it doesn't mean anything that people we sexualize everything nowadays. I'm talking about just touch of care and empathy. That's what I say. Empathy is love and go up to a female who may be having a hard day touch about be like it's OK and get provided with some great feedback with some strengths and maybe say why don't you go have some water toucher because we're losing that sense of human human connection and the lack of touch because so much is virtual and we're removing ourselves from real experiences and we're creating that's false narrative and world out there. But these men nowadays and it's been gosh. What I'm leaning to is what, over 10 years, you would probably correct me. And that's what I don't know how long it's been a long time a man has not felt safe just to do a gentle touch on his shoulder and be like, how's your day? Or if they see someone struggling, what are your, what's your experience from this? I'm sure you've seen it a lot. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I've always worked for small organizations. So I think it's a little different dynamic there. There isn't. I think that the same risk, I think in a small organization, a big one of something blowing up over that. Yeah, Look, it's tough. I don't think it's necessarily a male versus female thing either. As more female executives come up, it's the personal connection. The personal relationship for things are constantly blurred. I know some organizations that they do a lot of parties together, right, Right. In all kinds of things which which blur the lines. Obviously you're talking about a more genuine real connection and concern. I wish I had a, you know, a silver lining exact way to how to respond to that. I, I think every situation is slightly different. I think it does depend a little bit on, on what that relationship is between the two individuals. And it's tough, right? I'm, I'm a fairly affectionate man and can wear my heart on my sleeves and I have certainly throughout my career of giving a hug or touch the shoulder or back of a female or male employee, right? So it's tough. I think, I think something that sometimes is missed is rarely do we see a situation where there's a single event. From my experience, what I see see in the news, right, is it's, look, we have a lot going on in Congress right now around this issue. And there there's always a report. Then there's a, then there's the third report, then there's the fourth report. Then we start realizing, oh, this was not a isolated incident. This this is something that's been going on for a while. I'd like to think that I again, I I understand in today's date age that things escalate quickly when it becomes media worthy or or legal gets involved. I'd like to put some trust in the faith in the fact that I am an upstanding leader. I'm an upstanding man. I've never done anything inappropriate with any kind of Co worker whatsoever that it would hard. It would be hard to to pin something on me because I had a a moment of connection with someone in, in in a, in a platonic, non sexual wed it. It certainly is tough, right? And it but I, I, I, I do go back to if all your ducks are in a row and you've always shown yourself to be an upstanding person, I'm going to put some faith and trust in the fact that that's going. Speaker 1 To carry me. Speaker 2 Through, Yeah. Speaker 1 And I was really not even looking for say looking in terms of like harassment or anything. I think from my perspective is a lot of men say that it's just very uncomfortable, like even to sit in a room one-on-one, like whether it's with a male or a female, whoever the person is for the fact that if it's just one-on-one, either parties cannot tell the truth or exaggerate. And then when it comes out and everything gets hyped up, they just, it's hard in leadership nowadays to really understand the importance of having a strong character and like being transparent as well. Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I, I totally agree with you again. It's yeah, I think there's always ways that you can DYA, you can cover your ass, right, to make sure that things aren't misinterpreted. Misperceptions aren't wrong, but it, it is tough and, but I, I, I, I, I think that we all, you know, need to go back to a time where true good intentions, you know, we're perceived until we knew otherwise. So it's a tough balance for sure. Speaker 1 I just was wondering because the men have their guard up and it's not even I just use the touch on their shoulder because I thought about even if they were rocking around a room and they touch the chair right, just walking, but it's they have a heavy guard up. There's a very thick guard. And this is done of years of conditioning and it's been brought to my attention, which walking in a male shoes with a something so new is it's been that since a very just society alone. The idea of, oh, you have to be a protector and a warrior. And in that you're already going to have an armor. And then when people are coming at you, you're going to put up even more armor. So it's a masculine trait. Not saying you have to be as reactive, but how do we accept the situation for what it is without a tying an emotional collection to it as well? Speaker 2 Yeah, it might have a slightly different opinion on that because perfectly in my experience, I have never personally experienced any male leader being accused of something who had done something wrong. Yes. And I've worked with some people who have been some bad actors. And again, but I'm not taking away to the fact for the point that, look, it's a tough line that to have right to, to personal, to be emotional, to be vulnerable while protecting yourself legally by protecting professional boundaries is a tough line to cross or to, to know where the line is. And again, that's why I go back to just people having an understanding of good intentions and and being an upstanding person to help shield you against any view of misconduct, right. So my view might be a slightly little different because I working for small organizations. I've never worked for, you know, a company with thousands of employees, right? It's always been small organizations, startups, small businesses, nonprofits sort of thing to where you you were very personal with everyone. It because it became almost like a family, right? Like you work together day in, day out, you travel together for this and that and in the holiday parties. Yet what type of place where a staff meeting is everyone on the team, the entire team, not one department 111 thing. And you, you have to become personal to some degree, right? You, you, you have to form those connections to I think or they say naturally form. And I've seen I think more good than bad in those relationships in a leadership and personal role. But again, I have experienced situations where there have been some accusations, but every time that there has been one that there was fire behind the smoke. Speaker 1 Yeah, and that makes sense. I just, and they're just, I think we were just discussing like the armors and the walls that men are putting up nowadays. Because it has become a dominated world by so many different things. And men have wanted to suppress their emotions, whether good or bad, and how to balance when, how to release the emotion in a healthy way. It's probably the hardest thing, especially men in leadership roles. So how do you balance strength with vulnerability in your leadership? Balancing Strength with Vulnerability and Internal Work Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, I think leadership is always only at the top, right? It's a tricky place to be. And quite frankly, I think that's where some of the big millionaire billionaire entrepreneur influencers do a disservice for a lot of male leaders and for all leaders in general who have this mantra where I'm never afraid, I never make mistakes. If you don't want to be like me, you're a loser. Like all of those mantras that that does put people in a shell, right? Like I have to know everything. I have to always be confident. I can never be worried or scared for my team or my family or this that, right? It'll be an entrepreneur. My, my revenue goes ups and downs a lot by good months and bad months and good years and bad years. And it's tricky, right? It absolutely is. Where do I draw the line of being the business leader? And when you're self-employed business owner that bleed leads very easily into your personal life. My business finances is my personal finances, right? There's no separation between the two. And it's, it's been tough for me to have the right balance of what I keep internally to protect my family from my fears and worries. But being transparent with my family. And, and I've kind of learned to have a little bit more of a balance to where there are times where I come and say, look, guys like things aren't good right now. Like I, I'm worried everything's fine, right? Like, I don't want you guys to worry. But there's a lot weighing on me and it's tough. And I think for me more than anything is just relying on the personal inner work that I do, the meditation, the reading, making sure I stay in the gym, making sure I have my personal time. I'm, I'm a very introspective person and think a lot about who I am and what I do. And for me, I think what I do internally has more of a greater effect in that balance than what I do externally. Speaker 1 Wow, that's beautiful. I talk a lot about what I do when I coach CEOs and males, entrepreneurs, founders or whatever it is. I start off with a simple integration on it where it's internal, it's self leadership and I called, I used it from the power of 10 because I know when you are running a business or CEO or when you were running those smaller organizations as ACEO still this can work on is where. The time time is over is an asset and it's very hard. You can have the best time management skills, but ultimately that time is being taken away from something else. You can balance everything, but maybe you're taking away from your inner core being. So I talked about what integration is, which a lot of people struggle with out there like leaders, and it is about the internal work of I call it disease where you are at this ease, not at ease, dis ease. I break a part, the word disease and it breaks apart parts at your work and home and it bridges the gap between them because I'm a firm believer you are the leader. You are at work is the leader, you are at home. Now I am the first to say I'm a female. I like to say I walk side by side with people. I'm really good at psychological safety. I love having and wise men above me. I love having leaders above me and wise men and I love working with them. So This is why I love what I do and that's integration processes because I'm not leading them, I'm just helping them self reflect and become more self aware and also build more empathy and build a larger picture. With that being said, when we look at all of this, I use it on myself when I start to feel stressed, I'm like, OK, I pulled that out really quick and I start saying, OK, where is this? I have to, I find the link. Is it the business? Is it something I'm doing? I'm not taking care of myself. Like I haven't spent enough time on a hobby that I like. So I and finding that balance is, it's never going to be perfect, but it helps you to chart yourself. You have a baseline. And then I have a partner where he does friction mapping because we've nearly down to four base genomes for behavior and then we all have genetic codes for all of those. Some one, some people can even have a gene missing or they can have all four. And the percentage for everybody is different. It's like the human genome. No one has the same gene type. None of us have the same behavioral genotype. And so when we're working in a workplace, this is where I'm leading to Someone Like You who has all this experience, what has been the biggest frustration for you as you navigate change, whether it was as a CEO, oh, or right now as an entrepreneur? Because we default in times of stress to our weaknesses in that baseline DNA, right? Or genes and is where stress is. And stress is the opposite from empathy. Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Financial Fears with Gratitude Yeah, yeah. So for me, when it comes to my profession, career, like I've always been a change agent, just a natural change agent. Like I'm someone who comes in and is looking to how do we make this more efficient? How do we make it more effective? So for me, the frustration has been more on trying to convince my client, the CEO, etcetera, to accept change and, and often again, because sometimes I can come in like a sledgehammer and just ready to walk, knock the walls down and make some changes and it's low. I forget sometimes that change is hard, right? It changes they sometimes it's the founder, the CEO, the owner and that's their baby they built for 5101525 years. For me, what I've really worked on more than the change aspect of bring about change, other than the change for myself was really on the limiting belief stuff like I've been CLO and VP of operations launched my own company, highly educated, but I still was having self doubt and get going back towards some of those millionaire billionaire influencers who make it seem like there's just always winning. They never have. They never question themselves and and judge people who do like I I did the work. I did read about a book you called Soul Without Shame, which is all about the Super ego, why it exists from an illusionary psychological stance, but why not alert serves you today. That gave me a deep dive into how I can be secure, confident and still have self doubt. Like it's a natural thing that, and I think that's what leaders you understand. That's the biggest thing that I've learned. And then as I grew my, my, my understanding and practice again from that mindfulness aspect, it's just really learning that fear or anxiety comes from three things. It comes from how we look at the past, the lies we tell ourselves in the present, in fears about the future. And I got to a place where two years ago, I just had several things crash at one time, a business, a side business I was in that, that it dried up quickly. An investment I was in that crashed, like several things happened. And I end up taking out a business loan, which small business loans really are crappy unless you really have that clear drive to, to pay it back quick. But I was at a point where I was starting to think about the B word bankruptcy. It's because like I, I just, I overextended on some investments that I thought were good and whatnot. And then I was reading and then one day just hit me like John, like you're way too worried about this. There is nothing in the world that can happen to you financially that you couldn't survive. Now, would that possibly mean cashing out a four O 1K? Sure. Would it cost would mean selling some stocks at a 2075% loss? Sure. But there's nothing in the world that could happen to you financially that those wouldn't solve in the minute that I had that just kind of have the gratitude like I have these safety Nets that exist and, and, and trust in that trust that I have the runway I need to return things around. And the crazy thing is, the minute I changed my mindset, stopped worrying, had faith in, in, in what I had built in the, the cushion I had and what I was going to be building to replace the money I'd lost. Everything started opening up. Something changed with that investment. I was in the side project that had this shutdown of, of revenue coming in for me opened back up again. And that to me is, is one of the biggest lessons is that it in times of worry, it again, for me is, is a blur between my professional and personal life because they were the finances were linked. Just going to a place of gratitude, what we do have and remembering that it's never as bad as we think it is. And there's always some outs, right? Obviously there are moments where people are in a real crisis to where it's a little harder than maybe I'm describing it. But but going to place of gratitude, Yeah. People would say if you got nothing else to be thankful for, be thankful you woke up today, right? There's always something you can think of. And truly, coming from a place of gratitude can really start open things up for you. Speaker 1 Gratitude is attitude and I think it's who we surround ourselves around to the limiting beliefs. As much as we can control our emotions and how we feel about ourselves, we can't control how other people feel about us or how other people behave. So when you're in an experience that's tough and depending on how the other people's react if they're negative or whatever, it sucks you in, I call it fleas. If you're around these negative people too long, you get their fleas, their fleas start biting you and you start to project the negativity onto yourself. And so I've noticed that the positive and optimistic mindset is just with here on the now an acceptance for what's happening and realizing it is true. You, you're sitting. When we have that intense feeling, we start to worry or get afraid. We're really associating it to something that really we're giving it meaning from our past. That really should have been a lesson learned. It's not holding meaning here in the now unless you use it as a lesson for the good, for the towards the positive. So as we move forward from that, I look OK, one of the biggest things with these men is attaching to the outcome. And that attachment builds anxiety or avoidance, that attachment to the outcome of the KPIs and having to have it all right and having to have $1 million by this state because men are very goal orientated. It doesn't mean women aren't. But for me personally, I can set goals, but I do it in such a different way. Like I can only be in flow. It's unnatural for me like a man to write out in three months I will did it. It's unnatural for me. But I still get my stuff done and I get it done and I get it done in a way that a lot of people go, how do you do? And I go because I don't talk about it. I just do it and it's who I am. I don't know how I can't explain my everyone's different and that's the beauty behind it. And I learned little tricks of the trade from men and women alike. But what I'm leaning to with this worry is that's what causes most of our stress in our life and sometimes being around someone. Misery loves company. There are some people that they will never change their outlook. They will never and and it becomes emotional contagion. Dispelling False Narratives and Showing Up for Your Kids Yeah, I, I those are some great points. While you're talking. It made me think of several things. One is I think one of the biggest things that we all can learn and it like I I try to instill this in my son. It 819 years old that I wish I'm learning at 40, right, Which is others people's shit is not your own right? Their views, their perceptions, that's their shit. That's not yours. And the more we learn that and again, doesn't mean that we don't have some sympathy and empathy for their perspective, but to wear wearing other people's shit as your own is part of the park light. The other thing that made me think of While You're talking is the book Loving What Is, which is all about the narrative we put on stuff someone says RSVP knows to a party, our minds go, something happened, we must not be friends anymore, they must not like me. We create these false narratives in our head about all these reasons this happened, when the answer is all we know is they said no, they're good. Speaker 1 So Kate Byron it's amazing the book loving what is Tony Robbins actually uses that to formulate when he was doing business coaching. I did some research on his method and he uses her methodology and to the listeners out there, her methodology really breaks it down where we stop judgement and we accept what is. So one of the prime examples that I carry with me from the day. So a mindset coach I had years ago introduced me to it and to this day I still practice it. When I say OK I'm hitting a ditch, a personal DNA like one of my genes is hitting a ditch. I asked myself the 1st 2 questions that really is it true, Is it 100% true and it's that simple to actually take a It allows me to expand my lens is what I want to say. And this scenario from there I know the way I'm feeling is something with me and not someone else. So the prime example, I think in the beginning of her book, she has she's at a seminar and a woman talks about her husband and how she wants her husband to do something. And it was something simple to wash the dishes. I can't even remember. I think you're, you know, what scenario I'm talking about is she's does it change your perception of him if he is not washing the dishes right here and now and she's does it really matter if he washes it now or 10 minutes later because she thinks he's disrespecting her if she's not watching the dishes right here and now? It's the same as a man with his child children too. And being president doesn't mean when your kid says, dad, I want this, I need this. It's OK to say, whoa, slow down. Dad needs a break. They don't feel like men get that break anymore. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I think it's tricky. I have not really talked about this but I have a second book on the more personal side on Co parenting and my ex-wife and I had a great corporate relationship. We are very intentional from the get go in being a dad who doesn't have my son full time. It about 5051 thing I've learned about that in I also come from an upbringing where my dad always had every excuse in the book why he wouldn't show up right. My dad never understood the importance of showing up and for dads, for parents out there that my my take on that from a father standpoint is when you're showing up every time you can and your kid knows that it's OK to miss something. It's OK to do a trip with your wife. Do you miss a soccer game or go to a friend's birthday party and miss a soccer game? It's OK. My son knows it, but we're also go back to transparency and being vulnerable. Buddy, I would love to be there, but we have this thing over here we got to go to so we won't be at your game. It's not we're not just not showing up. We're communicating it. We're being transparent and and and my son is always it's OK Dad, you come to almost all my games. It's OK you miss 1. He has that kind of take on it because he knows come hell or high water, if there is not a reason not to be there, I will be there. And I think that's the stance we have to take is being that active person in our kids lives to the extent they know we will always be there as long as we can and be OK with when we can't. Cultivating Supportive Circles and Overcoming Fixed Mindsets And. Speaker 1 When you can't, it's giving yourself grace and I do I there's a person outside of the dam and the person outside of the business. I am not the CEO today. I am just John and I am have and I'm being the person with who whatever you do, whether it's what your guys say, hey, want to go golfing? We're having a few of our good friends where you can actually just have some fun. Now, people say the golf course isn't a place where you get great conversations. There are times I'm not. I think people in mind can have some say I had a real rough work, weak. Depends who you surround yourself with. I do believe men, the majority in the world from what I'm seeing, really don't have those circles like women do or that network. I like to say to come together and feel safe to say I'm stressor. I'm feeling guilty because my daughter wants me here. I want to have, I want to start something here, but the daddy heartstrings are pulling towards the daughter or son. Either way, it's a. It's a hard to be honest. Speaker 2 That I I wholeheartedly agree that men in their circles and their friendships and how they communicate is vastly different than women. My wife probably has at least 5 friends that she probably speaks to on the phone 1/2 hour a week minimum, right? Like some of my best friends in the world, I see maybe once every two or three years and we text maybe two or three times a year, right? But when we see each other, it's like nothing ever happened, right? But like, you're right, I don't have, I haven't always had that kind of that circle that I can go to, especially being an entrepreneur. It even complicates even more because I have to be careful of who I go to about my dreams, my visions and everything, because I don't want them poo pooed my ideas and, and not having the same vision for myself as because look, I'm, I'm in this weird place that as AW2 employee and even someone as a consultant, I'm the integrator. I'm the one who makes the things happen. But when it comes to me and my company, I am also the visionary. So I I with worlds and I live in dreamworld at times about where I'm taking this company, where I want to be and, and speaking in books and all that type of stuff. And I have to be careful who I let into that world of mine to not bring negative energy against it it. Speaker 1 Is I talk about that a lot as well-being around supportive people who support me and my vision as opposed to mock it or and make and a lot of times that is out of someone else's insecurity or they're not understanding. But I have always been trained. I keep it. The vision. It's hard to carry in men verbally share the vision is something that's so internal in such a calm state. You don't share it with anyone. You just start to implement it. At least I do. And so the vision is something where it's not. I can't. Me personally, I cannot just sit there and explain my vision to anyone. The vision is actually my actions and how I'm what I'm doing and how I've been trained all these years and it's a coaching philosophy and self leadership method I've done for years and it's got me through some really hard life transitions and I just don't talk about it. I think people spend too much time talking about it, but things aren't getting done. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So I've heard of that to a couple scenarios. My best friend is a marketer, right. So that it's like I bring up a new idea. Have you market tested that? No, what I would spend on market testing, I can just try it, right? Like that's where my head is. I'm just gonna go if it fails that I'm OK with that. I'm OK if I wasting 15 grand on on launching this new initiative, I believe in it. I'm gonna try it. But the other thing about the people who threw down the your, your notions and poo poo at that sort of thing, it's not something against you. Again, I go back to that's their, that's their shit, right? Like it's I, I have some people in my life that have such a fixed mindset on who they are and what they can accomplish, even though they try their hardest to not project it on me because they do believe in me, right? And believe in what I'm capable of. But when you see yourself, you see the universe as only granting so much to some people and so much more to other people. And you're not one of them. And you're it's just hard for you to believe that the people in your circle of people around you are that people who are up here, right? It's just it's a fixed belief of themselves that then touts how they respond to your things. I have learned to pull back my thoughts and ideas and visions of what I want to accomplish. I might give some big picture stuff but not the individual tools and tactics and the mechanism. I'm going to get there. I just share the dream from a broad sense and and learn not to give the details. Speaker 1 And at times I feel like giving the details even just say I'm building that and, and, and working with your and building your team, whatever outside of it is something that it's about alignment. And it's OK if someone doesn't understand it. But that fixed mindset. I always used to, I use this analogy to this day, it's one of my favorites and it's very simple. I keep things very simple. It's most male CEOs just kept it simple. Their businesses would run probably smoother too. I'm not in their shoes, but sometimes we over we try to make things more complicated, more logical. Like I, I know it all water, it was meant to flow. It was not meant to be stagnant. If you're stagnant in life, you are representing water. You are collecting bacteria. That's a very fixed mindset. It can become and it you may not, most people and male leaders or their employees don't even see it because of the fact that it's almost like a brainwashing. You're just so used to the culture, whether it's a cultural narrative, it's a masculinity, femininity, whatever. It is some kind of narrative, whether it's a narrative of being at one point a single dad, whatever. And it's saying, oh, I'm going to get married again. That's a very hard choice for men. There's all this stuff out there, these narratives that we tell ourselves and it keeps us in this fixed range. And the more we stay fixed, the more we collect the bacteria. It doesn't mean. And you change everything because then your head will start spinning. You just start to gradually change one thing. Personally or professionally. I usually, I always say start with the leader. OK, it wasn't. And then what happens is water when it surges, it's destructive, right? And so we want to get in that flow. And I said always, and this is my new saying rightly is stop because everyone follow. What happens is we get stuck in the status quo and keeping up with the Jones says number one thing for men. They're I noticed they compare themselves. These men in these ranking positions, whether you're a father or you're an entrepreneur, A solopreneur, you're not alone and but they feel alone. So they compare themselves. So then you have your son, right? And all his friends have the brand new whatever gadget out there, let's just say an iPhone if he's young and you're like, wait, I don't want him having an iPhone yet. But you start to pay to follow the status quo because oh, he can't be the only one without the new iPhone. And it is just really starting to ground yourself in your belief systems. And it doesn't to each their own on that aspect with the phone, but I'm just it's hard in a male's position because they don't even realize how they're getting pulled into something that's not theirs. Embracing Self-Care, Navigating Divorce, and Creating Your Own Future Yeah. And it, you know, the old saying of you are the combination of five people you're in a room with, right? That like when you're in a room with five people, you become the six. If you're in the room with five drug addicts, you become the 656, right? I struggled because when I first entered my entrepreneurial journey, I was creating some joining some masterminds and it didn't create a six successful from six successful person. For me, would it create was more self doubt because I looked around this room, I'm like I have more education these people, I have more direct executive experience these people. I have all of these things and they are making 10:20, 30-40 times more money than I am. And so it created in me this view that I am behind. You know, when you work from a place of being behind, that's when anger starts coming out and a mossy starts coming out in all the craziest dumb ways possible. So one of the things that I learned on my journey was you are where you're supposed to be. Well, there's no other option, right? There's no reason to ever perceive it otherwise. If you have to just lie to yourself that you believe that, then lie to yourself. But truly you are where you're supposed to be right now. And just you have to start from there and not get not listen to realize what you want out of life and work towards it. Talk about making it simple. The pathway to happiness is figure out what you want and working towards that, right? Like that's and not worrying about other people. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. One of my favorite terms is when people start to worry or get concerned. A lot of people view it as selfish, but I like to say that I care a lot about people. But when you walk around and security breeds insecurity. So when someone starts to say they're worried about this or they start to claim, I always say worry about, you worry about. And it's such a calm way. I I and with children, it's the boss. When kids start to compare themselves, I always think that by a child, what a child, how they behave in their 20s when they start comparing themselves. Worry about you. What do you have right now? What are you doing right now to get to what you want? Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm a big believer in the concept that selfish is not a four letter word, right? We are taught that selfish has one singular meaning. You only care about yourself, right? And that's, and you're not going to put others opinions or care about other people selfish means like from a simple stance, self-care, right? Like it's OK to care about yourself to what what you want to what you want out of life. I bring that to business. I bring it to relationships. I'm, I'm a big believer that two people can love each other, care about each other, but want different things in a life and separate. And that's OK. Yeah, we, we got to stop putting judgement and everything that, that we're a bad person because we want to go different direction than our partner or or spouse, whatever it may be. We're all entitled to pursue out of life what we want. And I think, again, that's another simple thing to learn and really adopt our lives to be happier. Speaker 1 And a lot of men too in your position and they've experienced something like a divorce and whether it was great Co parenting or not, I'm not want to speak on that behalf, but being able to realize that you were a good person. I always said this because I'm saying this from I, my parents are divorced right when people be like, hey, never was an issue. My I was always like you. They were together you they were smart enough to realize they weren't meant to be get together. And so they were able to go on and live their separate lives, but still share children some. And it this is a cultural thing for men. Just because you divorce someone, it doesn't mean you can't move on with your life either. Even though people say, oh, you can't because what? And because they beat themselves up, all the kids, they don't have ever broken family. And I don't like that. And that's not broken. It would probably been broken if you stayed together. Speaker 2 100% I had a conversation with a friend recently who things aren't going well in their relationship, but woman's pregnant and we're going to get married. We're going to make it work even though I know I'm not going to be happy and maybe I'll consider something down the road to to change that. Right? And but kids are going to know like it. It's better to do it. It's better to do it now. Like my my ex-wife and I split when my son was 1 1/2. He is totally known A2 home family from a mental standpoint, right? And yes, there was a time where around 8 to where he was starting to have some feelings like why can't mommy and daddy just be together? Why can't I live with both of you, blah blah. And we're just honest, transparent. Do you believe that both mommy and daddy deserve to be happy? Of course I do. We found out that we're going to be happier people, better parents being apart than together. And you're right, there is this protective mentality of broken home syndrome and and I get I just always pull it back in my book, the Co parenting secret. It's all about what's best for the kids and and taking care of ourselves. It's the best way we can be better parents. Speaker 1 And yes, and knowing too their struggles with the Co parenting, but there are options of parallel parenting which is more running. It's very healthy for the kids because we all fall into these traps where sometimes we think being friends with the ex-spouse is a way or trying to pretend there's a still a family exists even though they're apart. Not in a bad way. There's I'm trying to explain it. The kids get missed messages and what you're just setting the kids up is what are they going to see a healthy relationship like as well. But where this stems from with men a lot is the fact that men like my dad and his parents never were divorced. They were married, Oh my gosh, well over 60 years. But he never, he never compared himself to his parents, which was great, but I can only imagine how hard it could be for some people like my dad's parents who are gosh, I probably had to be, I don't even know, maybe 70. I have no idea until death, let's put it that way. The both of them are married here and very young, but or he never stressed it to me. He probably did it internally. My parents stayed together and now I don't have my kids and have to share. But I always my brother. I don't know. I always just said it is it takes the bigger person to say, hey, we're not meant to be together. I'm happy you have your life. I'm happy I have my life. I'm happy we're our child is thriving. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think the only reason why people don't do that is external forces, right? Whether it's religion, it's public society's views, friends, family's views. But yeah, again, I go back to we all deserve to be happy. We all deserve to pursue what we want out of life. And we will. We will be better parents, we will be better people if we can do that for ourselves. Speaker 1 I want to share a story with you because we're on the parenting and you talk about Co parenting and I know our times running up and I'd love to do another introduction because this I've had so much fun with this and I'm going to gift you my audit and I want you. It's a Google form. Then we can meet and so I don't breakdown the can I break it down and discuss it with them because it's always nice to have the head. And then from there I can move you for and me have you see what Kobe does too with the friction mapping. It's an amazing, it's amazing work. But I do want to hit something because we're so lying on this. So about the father, especially like yourself, entrepreneurs, whether they're married or not, it's sometimes a man, even if he's married. I actually had to guess that my parents have been married forever, but they're not happy. They'd be better off divorced, but the culture doesn't allow them to get divorced. And I was like, wow. But they said in such a nice way. I sounded like it was mean. They said in such a loving one, they just acknowledged the truth and accepted it. This is how it is. Our culture doesn't allow it. But my parents are not happy to get they're not in love anymore. And so it was the way that he expressed it was such a beautiful way. Whether they're divorced or not, it's something I want to share is one of the things out there is the stigma of society. I remember it depends on there's a lot of leaders too, who they judge a man or the people underneath them, like their employees judge them because they went through a divorce. You're not in that person's shoes, don't know. And then they start to judge their children. And that is a pet peeve of mine. I'll never forget I was in a situation and an organization where one of the children was drinking or whatever and got caught etcetera. And a youth, I think 1314 not 100%. And the leader literally said was because their parents are divorced. And I just my jaw almost hit the ground. That is such a lack of I, it's ignorance. I don't know what I need to say. Speaker 2 Yeah, I completely agree. I I think as I've gotten older and hopefully why is there here like I, I've learned just not a judge period, right? That's wow. Like I know some situations even where people have had affairs, you know, and I'm not excusing lying and having affair. I'm not saying it's OK to do. But the same time I've also known some situations where I got to know what the relationship was like. And again, is it the best choice of action? Of course, not getting divorced first is probably the better thing to do. But I also I've come not to judge I I'm not in their shoes. I'm not in a relationship yet. The thing with 50% of marriages today in divorce, right? Something along those lines and, and to say, you know that divorce is the cause of things, it's so simple. It is. It's. Speaker 1 Such a narrow minded way of living because no matter what it is, it ultimately breaks down to you and your beliefs. And I talk about enhancing your beliefs. And this is where I was leading. I left too. And I'll close out here and then I'll send you my calendar and everything. But that one of my new phrases. I just randomly, this is how I get, I get in flow and also, and I used to say I'm riding the wave. I'm no longer writing it and creating the wave. We create the wave in our life, meaning it doesn't mean I'm not study, but I'm creating the wave. I'm in control of the wave. Most of the time. The people let the wave control them. And I was using this analogy about the status quo and what I'm seeing a lot with what's happening with our younger cultures too in it, even at universities and stuff, and how the lack of identity, yes, that's when they're finding out who they are, who their peers are, but also the healthy balance between having a sense of self with social media. That's a whole nother topic, but that's how I got on it. But I applied it to business. I'm like, if I'm going to start a business and I read that it's you have, you don't want to do what everyone else is doing. Once you're riding that wave, you can be on that wave and have it, but it's the originality of creating the wave, It's where the success is, and then you just let go of the outcome and it ends up being much better than these extreme highs and lows of entrepreneurship. A. Speaker 2 100% that's, that's four O 1 level stuff, right? Like that's the goal, right? Is because there, there's a symbiotic relationship between riding the wave first to be able to create it, right? When you're fighting against the wave, you can't ever create the wave, right? It's, it's they, they work in tandem with one another. You got to learn to go with the flow in order to create that space and environment for you to be able to create your own wave. And it that's, it's a beautiful, that's my goal, right? Is to, that's what I'm constantly working towards is to being able to go with the flow and create my own future from that flow. That's we're saying the same thing in different ways. And I, I still have ups and downs of my business and everything, but I am doing so much better about me not going up and down with those ups and downs, right? Like I'm, I might still go like this, but I'm not going this and this. Like one day I'm the best entrepreneur in the world and the next day I'm a worthless piece of shit. Like I don't have those extremes anymore. It doesn't. Speaker 1 Have good. Speaker 2 And bad days and ups and downs, but it's learning to to ride the wave, which is going to allow you to create the wave. Speaker 1 Yeah. And so I've learned to, I love that I've learned to ride the wave where I talked about this earlier with and another podcast is those extreme and mindfulness is eliminating the highs and the lows being able and I call it homeostasis. You have the standard deviations, but the deviations can't be too extreme because either way, like if it's high and you're making tons of money, you're going to end up spending all this money and then you're going to hit the lows and you're going to go backwards to a greater loss than you were before you started the this journey. So it's actually being mindful in all your interactions, which I love this. I appreciated having you on.