Leading with Vision w/ Arnaud Weyrich & Xavier Barlier, Roederer Estate

Hey listeners, everyone talks about leveraging data to improve winery sales. But does it work? Enolytics, the DTC in wholesale depletion data analytics platform, has seen their customers grow their DTC revenue double digits year over year. Pair that with higher-club growth rates and their new depletion platform, and you've got a one-stop shop for getting the insights you need to compete and grow in this fast-changing Y-market in every channel. Visit Enolytics.com to learn more. Welcome to X-Shadow, the podcast that navigates the business of wine, with unique perspectives and insights, with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to this episode of X-Shadow. Today we're going to be mapping a nearly 40-year journey to success for Rotorist State and our guest, our Arnad Weirich, senior VP and wine maker at Rotorist State, and Zavya Barley, the CMO of MMD, which is a US subsidiary of Rotorist. Welcome to the show, guys. Thank you for having us. Thanks for Rotorist. So, let's start with a little bit of background overview. Arnad, as is your first time in the show, could you please give me and Peter a brief overview of your background? Yeah, so as you can tell from my accent, from French Ball and French Rays, or for French educated in the wine business. So, I got a master's degree from wine making and venue management from school in Montpellier back in the 90s. And I first came to the US in 1993, you know, as an intern, a bit of a backpack to discover the Y-World, worked years at Rotorist State as an intern and came back to France for five years, working for a very large retail corporation. And it was very interesting, but that's what I wanted to do. And kept good connection with the family. That's OWN's Champ-Anada et Rotorist State in 2000. Basically, now I got the job to take over from my predecessor Michel Salgan. I started to work again for Rotorist States in 2000 and became the one maker in 2003. So, it's been a pretty good ride, 27 years working for the other family. So, good along, right? I guess. That's an interesting one. And so, this is your fourth time on X-Jetto. So, thank you for being a valued guest over and over again. You're on one at the end of 2021 and twice in 2022. So, first time in 2025. But it's been a while. So, can you give our listeners a bit about your background for Ezra Fresher? Sure. And again, it's a joy, a bit part of your show. I have a business degree originally. I was a major in accounting, which actually is very helpful in marketing. And then I went back to school to study marketing and international business. I'd been in France and that's Stanford in back in 1989. I joined the company Roderé in 2001. And prior to joining Roderé, I worked for my fantasy Renault as a head of public relations. And then I worked at Disney as the head of corporate alliances and co-branded marketing for Disney and Paris. So, we're discussing Roderé Estate today. So, it's probably important to see how that fits into the Roderé portfolio. Xavier, can you give us a quick rundown of the Roderé business in general and how Roderé Estate fits into it? Yes, so, Roderé was founded almost 150 years ago back in 1776. And has a long history with the US market. Roderé, the second, the son of the original Roderé, started to export to the US in the 1860s, 1870s. And really, it's been a lot of a fair. Back in the 1980s, the sixth generation Jean-Claude Rousseau was the president-C. Or Roderé at the time decided to really set foot in California, acquiring vineyards and building a winery that was to become Roderé Estate, that opened in 1987. At the same time that the distribution company, MMD USA, was founded precisely to control the distribution of Roderé Estate as well as Champagne, Roderé. So, Roderé Estate released at the core of the portfolio, very much in line with the DNA of the brand, you know, family-owned, long-term vision and estate. So, you said that Roderé was founded in 1987. Roderé Estate was founded actually in 1982 as a company, but opened really in 1987 with the launch of the Royal Estate Brute. And at that time, the family felt that controlling the distribution to control the quality and also to control the image was a key for the long-term success of Roderé Estate. So, the same year Roderé Estate opened in the Ensen Valley, MMD opened in California as the distribution of Roderé Estate and Champagne, we're on the way. Nationwide. So, Roderé Estate is nearly 45 years. And why was Roderé Estate founded and what was the inspiration? The inspiration was really new. The startup mood that Jean-Claude Rousseau the CEO of the company. We all had it, my. The marketing studies were at no fine dining and fine wine drinking was, we've been on big rides, you know, was going to rise in the US in the 80s, 90s. It was just not enough champagne, French champagne made in champagne just to supply the local domestic US market. So, making local eating something, it would be a high quality sparkling wine that would look like champagne. Tastes like champagne would be a quality sparkling wine. It was kind of like on everybody's mind. And it was not the first one to make that move from France to California. Actually, it was kind of like on the maybe later ones in the world. Early in the 70s, there was Jean-Claude move already, you know, to the to California and Piper. Sonoma was founded. No, there was even some of the Spanish cars that made the move in the early 80s. So, in 1982 when Jean-Claude established the estate, it was kind of like on the, that second wave of those wineries going for the gold rush of California to create no local estates in wineries. And his idea was really, you know, to do as the same as in France, but do it in California. Under the obviously terroir, no end conditions of California, land was way cheaper than France. No, the conditions for growing grapes were pretty outstanding in terms of weather. No labor costs were varied. Also, there was a lot of reasons why going to California was the smart move, Magnum. And why specifically Anderson Valley? I'm curious because it seems like they're pretty early into kind of establishing Anderson Valley at that time. So, do you know why that location was specifically chose versus anywhere else on the west coast or in California? Yeah, so again, I've used the word startup because this is California, right? So, you have that most spirit of like, you really start something from scratch and because that might be the big next thing. So, a Napa had already, you know, a couple of wineries established, new in Napa, right? So, it's end and the price of the land, maybe the slaves was not as new, was not totally to be discovered anymore. So, I had also some wineries, you know, making Sparkly wine. And Anderson Valley was in that sweet spot of like, there was land available. That it was inexpensive. And then when you are a winery, you know, making that big leap from one continent to the next might be stretching yourself, you know, in terms of the whole economics of it. So, Anderson Valley had the right weather, the amount of land available. There was a track record of other local wineries, like Napa or Vignia's, herch wineries, that, you know, it needs, like small local wineries, but we're making a very nice wine. And it was, so an up and coming, you know, appellation back then 1982, we're talking about both land here, but it was not even an separate appellation of Mendelssohn County, but it became actually a separate appellation 1983. So, it was kind of like double leap of faith that John could name. Maybe that's also why the land was also less expensive, you know, and more available. And I think that's the reason. It's kind of like, you know, seeing that as an up and coming, fantastic location to make Sparkly wine. That, I don't know. I think himself, you know, he had somebody who was really making decision. He was really a guy who was making things and was really looking forward to it. He was a discoverer a little bit. And so, at that time, what was interesting about being known for when Rotorose State was founded? Was it known for the pinot as like it is today? Not yet. No, actually, you know, that it was known for Apple orchards. There have been other declines since the '60s. And then there were vineyards, but the vineyards, the varieties that were known were more like Chardonnay, Riesling, Gerver Straminar. Some people are planting pinot noir, like at a small family wine, or a small vineyard, or a small, lazy creek in the '70s. And they were making things that were very burgundy, like, but pinot noir back then was not the type of variety that people were drinking. People were looking at, you know, maleo and cad and Chardonnay, things like that. So, the innocent vineyard was making a lot of Chardonnay back then. Which, you know, if you make Sparkly wine, you're looking for good Chardonnay, no crisp, no fresh, nascident. So, that's what I think, codes, no Chardonnay, no attention. This is a good place to make good Chardonnay. So, it must be a good place to make Sparkly wine. And so, what was the production like back in the '80s, and how does it compare to what the production levels are today, either in terms of bottles or cases or acres? What's a good reference? Yes, like any business that starts from scratch, you know, you have that, you know, wish list. You know, what's on that spreadsheet? Like, we want to be there by that time. And then the reality sets in. It was pretty tough at the beginning, right? So, 1982, basically, the land is, you know, is acquired, the vineyards are starts to be planted. We make a very first harvest in '85. The one year is built in '86. And we release the first Broadway states. We release it label on the market in '88, where the new kid in the block, they already kind of quite a new, no Sparkling wine brands out there already. And it's tough. It's pretty tough. So it really takes 10 years. It's mid 90s around 95 96 That's really RotoA states becomes the new brand and then Xabi obviously can talk even more about it So other brands were more on the market than us We were again, we were the new kid on the blog soup until the mid 90s. It was tough So we were making about 40 45,000 cases in those no late 80s early 90s and we were was difficult to sell them Then we was the mid 90s, you know, really gave us the rise that we needed the visibility We quickly got into the 80,000 cases by the millennium Millennium was kind of the year where every spot you want to house was betting like this is where we're gonna make a splash Right, you're gonna and it kind of happened like no 80,000 cases. No, we did it And then it kind of like plateaued a little bit, you know for after the millennium because they were well But just too many bottles of bubbly made and then it's it throws again And now we're at a hundred thousand cases, you know as of now So it's a steady growth at the same time as Xabi said no, we want a state's family-owned model So you make the bottles that you get from your vineyards and then you have good years and you have bad years and this is what it is That's also the limitation of being in a state model So when RotoA state was launched in the late 80s What was the positioning of the product like it's pricing relative to other California sparkling wines or to Louis RotoA Champagne or in how it was sold was that different to Xabi? Maybe that's a question for you The US wine market as we know came to to lie in the 1970s at a hard time to recover from the prohibition and the as far as parking one is concerned the 1980s were really the years of the pioneers Some are still here our colleagues and friends Shamsberg Shandong of course mom the men canneros are in the horse and we were all together to really build the category with high quality sparkling wines Each of us with our own style which I think grew the attention of champagne lovers in the US There were other brands there were other entrepreneurs. I remember very well Stanley Anderson his brand was as Anderson He was a dentist from Pasadena. I believe and I was lucky enough to meet him is in his wife who went back to UC Davis to get a degree in anology and I saw them building the winery But the market took a huge downturn starting with the the bust of Stock market in October 1987 that was the first blow and then a second one at the end of 1989 everything went wrong at that time she looks at how he divinials and I know we have so a few words Which meant for the producer that they basically had to replant the vineyards at the time that the market was really Shitting down. So this is a category for release of Ibers entrepreneurs people were a long-term commitment and also the financial background that could sustain these are huge swings, you know in the economy in the market so The success we've achieved the last 40 years has not come easily. It's not been a work in the park for us Or for our colleagues Anyway, palettes the story of champagne champagne was a region that was invaded over the centuries Vigin that was destroyed completely virtually completely including the vineyards world war one and this is Story of resilience and Arnold can talk about resilience in the vineyards for instance It's a good segue of also the challenges of being a startup in a new area that you you have your knowledge for more you come from from In this case no from France and then you try to apply that knowledge to the to the California glory condition And in the 80s everybody is no slang to establish no new vineyards. It's really not of the big no gold rush No, that there's so many vineyards being planted everywhere. That's no nurseries. Can't keep up supplying the correct Plant material You know to correctly plan those vineyards. So the big thing about it is like no you need to graph your vineyards There's a then assets which is an insect that actually feeds on the roots of the vineyards and all the Varieties that come from the American continents are actually resistant to that aft But not the vitties venefar from Europe. So all the vitties venefar are no all grafted in Europe I've never seen that you know aft. So when in Philips are a crisis of the 1870s that aft is brought to Europe it needs a destroys and wipes out the entire You know vineyards of Europe. So which is very funny So like when the Europeans come to California to plan vineyards They know about grafting and having a hard time understanding why the nursery is around no I'm not supplying and no philips are our resistant rootstocks But because there was so much demand for so much plant material There was some nurseries pushing in a rootstocks called the ix-1 which has you know A parentage bread of probably of a vitties venefarer Pantage it has a lot of quantities no vigor resistance to a lot of things except flogs around the lawn So basically you had those vineyards planted using that x-eroan rootstock that starts to fail after 15 years No bringing the ground and roya states new better However, because there was that rush of like we need to plan vineyards We had to get some of that plant material and by the mid 90s Well guess what some of our vineyards has to fail already because of well the rootstock is not resistant It's technically resistance, but it's not genetically really resistant to the philoxera Here we are we start with planting So let's have the story of why I'm here you know in 93 I was an intern and I was like hey Let's you should go and do like a note of the vineyards and then she supposed to be part of my internship and my six-month internship and it over two years because guess what we have to fix around the vineyard and John Croll, Michel and I were basically no trying to find the best way to fight this and find ways to avoid the business to take such a hit that it would be No, you would disappear. So there was also interesting times See the least in life. It sounds like there were certainly some production challenges during the evolution of rotor estate with Flogsera and whatnot But what was the initial market reaction to rotor estate and maybe to the American sparkling wines in general You mentioned that you know a group of you were trying to sell it and if people consider it to be like equivalent to champagne or like as a substitute or more like as something that's price lower I think you know, there were both excitement and perplexity excitement because the US market is always Excited but something new new product new category of products and California sparkling wine was intriguing especially because the wine itself had already received a huge accolade and visibility Thanks to Shamsberg when it was served in 1972 by President Nixon in China and And the toast with the Mao Zeynong. So that really gave California sparking wine a lot of exposure I think that was really a market of offering because the consumer with very Sammily always with sparking wine and the prices of champagne were fairly low in the 1980s I was here in the second half of 1980s and you could buy a bit of champagne for less than $10 of a Very well-known brand so need less to say for California sparkling wine and rotor estate in particular There was a glass ceiling because there is no doubt that a label that carries or that bears the word champagne commands from the consumer standpoint a higher higher value higher price point So that was a very difficult position for us and for our colleagues But I state was priced between I would say two and five dollars below champagne Which would make the economic model very challenging at the time that the family in Jean Claude in particular That to accept an additional investment in terms of replanting the vineyards as well as Further building the winery which at the beginning had no testing There was this belief that no one can come and visit or a state in the middle of nowhere at the time The 128 which is one of the most beautiful roads in the world was hardly paved So Jean Claude said let's not spend any money on a tasting home and eventually it was added You know after some other wineries decided to set foot in the Anderson Valley and the Anderson Valley becoming Took his destination and a wine lover destination So it was really hard the late 1980s the beginning of the 1990s in addition to The fact that in the late 1980s the wine industry was under siege by some very significant legal problems linked to the sulfite content which is a natural compound In the berries so everything really was not Fervable until things started to turn around in the mid 1990s There was of course the French paradox the economy was rebonding by leaps and bounds in 1994 Seven was internet and so on so forth and also the Advanced of a new culinary standards and the form of young chefs creating Beautiful menus. It was the kind of the golden era for yopening of new restaurant the word Samarillain was created in penglish language before in my time when I started it was wine steward and suddenly There was such a thing as a summary There is this history, some really is some of them, they can mute stars, some became entrepreneurs, and now they own restaurants, they are CEO companies. So the exciting time, you know, started really in the second half of the 1990s, spending you're still in business. So people ask for recommendations on sparkling wine and a certain price point. I always recommend Rotor-A-State because it has a very strong quality to value ratio. And I think Peter agrees with me there. Was this part of the design, the intention to deliver quality and value for the money because in comparison to other things that are on the market? Yeah, I'm seeing that on the part of like, you know, the wine makes them part of it. I think from the beginning, Jean-Claude's idea was to create something again. That would look like champagne, this like champagne, but I was California's parking wine. So we really brought in all of them knowledge. That's the key DNA part of Louis Audien France, you know, the choice, the choice of varieties, you know, the type of ratios of planning, Pinot Noir, Treshaalne, and also the fact of using reserve wine. And that's really part of the DNA of Louis Audien France. From every harvest, you know, there is the selection of some of the wines go further aging in Okasque for multiple years. So it's really creates that nice depth of wine. So it's sparkling wine, yes, but it's wine. It starts by being a wine and then it goes, it becomes burbys, food, affirmation, the bottle. And that's really the part of the one making. So Jean-Claude had a one making degree. He was interesting by the product itself. That was, you know, I mean, and the marketing part of it, it was maybe less part of his thinking and his personal interest. He liked the challenges and the one making part of it. And that's how I met him and that's how I knew him. So what I said was created with him was, you know, Mr. Ryu and Mr. Ponsu, who was both the previous chef de cav à drodai and the French of the cav à drodai back in the days and they both brought in their no feedback of what to do so that Roger Estade would be to the standard to the level of being something really outstanding. And also if you have the new kid on the blog, guess what? You have to over deliver to make, you know, to be visible. Otherwise, you just one more of the same. We didn't only be one more the same. We had to over deliver. And then I think that's the part that I saw at this on the one making side. We were doing stuff really to over deliver. And we still do, you know, into over deliver. And I think that's kind of like said, the tone of the discussion. So Roger Estade has achieved so many accolades in its 40 plus years of existence, including being wine spectators, top 100 wine, 12 times its 1998. And even number 20 in the 2024 listing, what do you believe has led to this litany of accolades? Don't go forget that we are Roger Estade de la Mita, 20 2012, what number five of the wine spec in 2019. So that's even even getting closer to that note. That's also we reach no top five of the wine spec. That was pretty outstanding. Why? I think it's just the workout every day. No matter what, don't look at the ranking and the scores. Don't do it for the scores. Do it because you like what you're doing and do it. Because this is what you've been said you should be doing. And repeat. And repeat again. And after 40 years, well, I guess you get lucky, you know, right? You know, and forget the high score is, I think, the consistency. It's what catches people eye and then from being just like, oh, yeah, those guys got lucky ones. Well, can get lucky ones, but not twice or three times. Means it is there is something behind that creates that reason. It is the seriousness of the wine making. And I'm just saying that because it's me because it's a team work. And it's just me, it's the guys in the vineyard. It's the fact that the family has always also supported that part of the business. Like guys, you know, there's a road or a written on the label. You cannot be making something that would be so far from the branding of the family name on that label. And that has always been kind of like the supporting decision is, you know, we have to to get the level. Xavier, how much do you think the accolades have helped you sell the wine? I think it's very impactful over the long run. Pending, you get that on the consistent basis. Because it gives one more reason to believe for the consumers that the wine is what they want and what they need. So wine, sparking wine as something in common with diamonds, mutual funds, art, to the extent that we turn, we as consumers, we turn to experts to form our opinion. It is virtually impossible to prove technically that our wine is better than any other. So we turn to experts and the experts are the one writers, the experts of the opinion leaders, the experts of the retailers. I think fine wine retailers are absolutely key for the success of wine in the market. The sommelier's in restaurants are really the best ambassadors for wine. And again, score and accolade in a major wine publication or buy a major wine writer. Again, the contributes to the trust and the logo of tea in the brand. So I'm curious, what marketing decisions were made to achieve the success? Maybe you give us one or two examples of things that you really think over that 40 years that have catapulted the brand and the wine of Rotor-Estate to where it is today. So the philosophy of rear-order air, historically, has always been to do as little marketing as possible. And what we understand is that there are really two kinds of marketing. Marketing for fast-moving consumer goods, which is based on market studies, on consumer's opinion, and assumptions about what the consumer wants. And there is another kind of marketing, which in the best case scenario is invisible. This is the marketing practice, for instance, by Steve Jobs, who famously said, "I never conduct any focused group because consumers don't know what they want until I show them the product." And this is what he said famously in 2008, "Lonche iPod," which was not the outcome of a market study, which was the outcome of a vision. And this is pretty much what Jean-Paule-Drouzeau had in mind when created Rotor-Estate was not market study. It was much more the idea, the vision, the dream, the dream, that yes, one day, Rotor-Estate could make an outstanding sparking one outside of champagne, bringing hundreds of traditions and expertise, buying its own vineyards, being a state, which was something that Jean-Paule-Drouzeau couldn't do in champagne due to the regulations. He knew very well that Louis-Odrea could be 100% state. All the ones are state with exception of collection, which is the multi-vintage of Louis-Odrea, but in the US, in California, it could be a state. And that was also a research and development project to learn from different terroir, which is extraordinary and useful today with climate change. And Arno could say a lot about it. So, after 40 plus years, sometimes it feels like the stories have been told, how have you kept the media and the trade interested in hearing what's new with Rotor-Estate? Have you kept it fresh? Well, I've been very lucky the last 25 years, almost, to have Arno as the spokesperson for Rotor-Estate. And been working with Arno about development of the narrative and sharing the continuous progress philosophy that he has. And again, to add resistance to believe for the one writers, for the opinions, for the sommelier, for the customers to believe that Rotor-Estate in its own style, you know, is an outstanding expression of what California can produce in the category of sparking wine. So, again, having Arno being the face and the voice of the brand has been a huge asset. And I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you very much for being such a good partner. Thanks, Zavi. It's a team work, right, Mouli? Somebody has to make it and somebody has to talk about it. So, it's interesting also that how do you create the buzz? So, basically, in Oksavi, would have liked me to create buzz in every year, twice or year, so if you have a classically own winery, you have to adhere to some classical visions. You don't make anything new, crazy out of your mind every year. No, this has been color again. This is a middle-tennision elevator, Trump and I was wine. And how do you create something new within the framework of, you know, that classical vision? So, you don't have a lot of options, right? So, the one option is to learn more about US states, which is who we are, and then creating something from that estate that becomes the new thing within the framework of the Sparkly Wine. That's why we came to developing a rosé and then a leurmitage vintage, which was the first time made with the Hours D9. And then the first leurmitage rosé, it was in Ninen-ass, or ten years' lift, right, to tell ten years later to create a new product. Then, then from '99, basically, you know, not much happened, and I faced a lot of happen in the background, but then the seamen liners were released in the Hours 2020. So, it took nearly many years to come up with something, I don't like to say new, just something relevant about what the estate is about, is that you learning from the place, because this is still the new world, learning about the new place and being able to make something that you believe, you can trust, know, and release that, release out of the world as something you think is new in our world. To be more specific about marketing, Robert, whether we'd say about the cornerstone of any marketing endeavor is to create a community. You want to meet that community wherever it is, hence the presence of alno in the market, doing wine tastings at the fine wine retailers, or restaurants, iron hotels, to meet the community really where it lives, and to be organic, and to turn this community. of consumers, i.e. occasional buyers, into a community of clients, people who are emotionally involved with the brand, and eventually in a perfect world, to transition them into the fans status, which is really the idea that your clients, your consumers, are actors of the brand. They tell the story for you on your behalf. Another example in the automobile industry are the Tifosis, the Ferrari fans. They will never buy a car, but they will wear the symbols. The sweaters, the hat, they are proud to be part of the story of the brand. This is what we've been trying to do. Again, it has a lot to do with connecting, which is the major role of marketing is to connect a product and the brand with its market. So in our case, which is more product driven marketing, we are storytellers, as opposed to study what the market wants. We have the product. Arno provides the product to us, and we are here to understand how it's been made, and the buzz every year is the harvest, or is the new vintage, the progress in the vineyards, the new sellers, you know, whatever is part of the continuous progress of the Rada estate philosophy. And that continuous progress has shown up in the market reception for the wines. According to the wine searcher, the price of the flagship, Rota Rastate, multi-vigaged brute has impressively gone from about $23 a bottle in 2016 to $30 in 2025. How have you thought about price changes for the wines? Well, first of all, in the US, you may not set your price bond. The price to see on the shelf on the wine list is the recognition by the market that your product is worth that price point, because we have a three tier distribution in the US. So we sell to wholesalers, partners, mountain partners, who are key to the success of Rada estate. In terms of sale to license retailers, again, off and on premise. And eventually, the product shows on the shelf on one list of certain price points. So the whole of marketing is really to create the context for the acceptance of that price point. On the P2B side of the question, which is why once in a while, we raise our price, then you'll have to be honest, transparent, and give little time for the three tier system, which is a long supply chain to integrate the pricing. And we have to be very transparent, but what the reasons are in terms of labor cost, in terms of the price of glassware, the high materials, and Arnold talk about it. I believe we import our glassware from France. They are champagne bottles. So we are subject to the vagaries of currencies and tariffs, whatever, including our relief coax and all this money. So we are very transparent with our partners, all sellers, and say, well, this is what's happening. And we have to raise the price. And then in terms, of course, there is a multiple factor. And at the level of the consumer, again, this is where communication is very important. And accolades and play a role of supporting the idea that the one is worth that price point. So obviously, cost and cost increases are a big part of that. But are there also market or brand specific conditions that give you more confidence at some points versus others to take price? Well, I think we as consumers, when we are loyal to a brand, we don't like to see the price fluctuate. And I think this is the economist Benjamin Graham who said something along the lines of price fluctuates value and durs. So our responsibility is to make sure that we communicate our values for the situation in which we find ourselves where, you know, the price has to be different. So it's always a challenge, but we make sure to communicate the value that the consumer gets. This is why this year we've launched a new packaging for other states to make it more relevant to the current codes. We've opened a new, extraordinary testing home here. And it has to do with the experience, this has to do with the experience, offering the community, our community and aspiring community again, a context in which they're going to see that this one, the state is worth, you know, the price that they have to buy. There are some different reasons that everybody knows what understands. Like we know the cost of farming has been tremendously California the last 10 years just because of the minimum wage being hyped up, which we welcome because if nobody wants to work in the ag world, therefore in the wine industry, because they will want more water construction, then it's the end of your business. It's just nobody working for you. So the cost of farming went up, but also for some of the decisions that family had taken for long time ago, we were on a remote part of California. And if you don't have housing, or if your workers don't find a housing, it plays to state, well, then you don't have workers either. So we're providing housing for people for a long time. So right now we're about 90% of our staff, vineyard and wire workers working on the estate, actually housed on the estate, meaning we provide it. It's a highly subsidized, no way to do it. So when you've spent the last 10 years, three million dollars on either remodding or providing new housing to your people, it's a commitment that sometimes is part of that quality ethos kind of like relationship that sees ingrained in the brands, like doing the right thing, family own business, doing the right thing. So that's also what we try to come to. We try to come to. We try to pick about water estate. So the portfolio over the last 40 years has evolved quite a bit as well. What has been the evolution of the portfolio of wines in the last 40 years? I know we've talked a lot about the flagship water estate, but they're, we've mentioned a little bit of the image, but there's also single vineyard wines. There's the extra dry. I'm curious on how all those things came about and how the what the reception is for those. When we started in 1988, there was one wine. It was the brother estate brewed in 1988. The first role day was made with an 89, we're listing 92. The first vintage QV in 89, we're listing the 83, early 94. So there've been some new additions. It's what about us feeling confident that we could do something outstanding, meaning you try and if you not happy with it, you don't do it. So I think it's because we could have studied like your one and just do all of those in the first place. I think it was more like the the learning experience as you learn and you are confident that you can actually do something that is relevant and up to the level of the brand than we do it. And that's the same laminate, which is a vintage QV, it doesn't exist every vintage. It's not to the level, it doesn't exist. So you have really that thinking of like don't do it if it's not to the level. And that's also part of that commitment of it's just not let's just bring something new for being new that has to be really interesting. And in the pure rote ver culture marketing, they know about these new wines until the date of their release. So this is really very idiosyncratic about Rirotrea, that does the same when Rirotrea launched the Brut Nature, a no clue. And the certainly we're not interested in my opinion about Busbithia launching a new one. And I think I'll know I had no intention to share the secrets. And suddenly I see these beautiful single vineyard wines on my table say well now let's talk about it. And this is really you know I was mentioning Steve Jobs you know this is really in the philosophy of we make the wine and then you guys Martin communication you know you tell the story. And from the pure marketing standpoint it's kind of a dream because this wine that comes with really an authentic Theroy d&a and it's very very exciting. I used to work for Disney as well and with the Imagineers in Glendale and it should come up with a show or a new ride when no clue and they say well we're going to build this in the park and good luck sounding the right and we say wow that was and this is very much in the very specific culture of this organization extraordinary which are for a marketer a kind of a dream you know because you understand what you have in your hand you know you have a golden story in your hand and then you have to you know frame it and you have to deliver it you know so that's why I've been with this company for so long I mean every year you know it's so so exciting. So the Hermitage you know making a single vintage is very much in the champagne style in terms of Attetoucavet with a non vintage as the flagship but the exploration of single vineyard wines the apple valley and the Clark Road those were launched I'm curious what was a thought process behind creating those wines from a wine making were those just things that you already had and they just stood out or not or and then obviously once they came out to the market like Zavi had to figure out a market them but I'm curious on like how did you how would that evolution because it seems like a departure from the classical champagne playbook. Actually it's not departure from classical you know and this thing is like from every year that you do wine from the estate no six hundred acres of vineyards no it's over a hundred lots of wine every year you taste and rank them and repeat the next year so I it's only one hour to year so it takes some time to get that repetition of finding that you know you like some spot of your vineyard more than others there's something that other characteristic and then that you like and then guess what the next year it repeats and then it repeats so Hermitage was already a blend of some of those best spot on the valley, but in a way what I call it is like it's a multiple blocks throughout the valley where the estate is singing in chorus together to create a very classical, refranch, rich and plain like wine. The single vineyard, it's more than the few blocks singing solo. So it's like the solo singer expressing more the variety in that corner of the estate. Okay, seeing that, you know, very penal character or that very shard and a character. So it took me some time to get there. I thought it would take me 10 years, it took me 20, so I guess I'm a very slow learner no one on this, but also it creates and I was also kind of like very organically went where a family owned company that grows and farms and estates. So we basically were a grower except no, there's no word for it, you know, in the US, if you're in champagne, you are a grower of champagne, right? It's really much the key of creating something very specific to your village. Well, we are a grower sparking wine from California and that's really also a little bit where we wanted to show that we were somebody, you know, that's different, with not a negotiation by being in a totally estate grower, that's the difference. Quick question, are the Apple Valley and Clark Road, there are single vineyard but are they also single variety wines as well? No, I like to make things complicated because then we can talk about it, it's no one on the podcast, right? So no, the other. So the Clark Road is the vineyard that we have on the west side of the valley, this is the further away for us, no, on the west side, which is also the closest for us from the ocean. It's a beautiful spot for the Pinouin War that can hang longer on the vines but still retain a lot of that acidity. So you get something of purity of fruit, you can't, but still a lot of acidity. So it's my, so the Clark Road is a blond and arstine but it's not a blond and arstine because there's a bit of chardonnay to lighten that and get a little softer, no bland. So it's a blond and arstine but it's mostly Pinouin in the blend with a little bit of chardonnay. And the apple that is kind of the opposite, it's my blond or blond take but there's a bit of Pinouin War because the Pinouin War braids a little bit of that backbone structure that makes it still be more serious, I feel. So both are showing one type of style without being totally it's. And the question I've been asked is like why did you do just a blond or a blond or blond style right away with it, with it being simple, but yeah, but it's a more beautiful wine. And if you can add a little bit of Pinou to a bland chardonnay and vice versa, just you get a little bit of both of those varieties that complements each other so well. And that's also very much the style of Broadway states. It's been a blend of both a beginning. And how have those wines been received in the market? The gigceloids because it's really something that's, you know, if you find the champagne world and you like your bubbles following the gourmet champagne with a green bake sighting. So if you find the same vein, same mood, no word, discovering the gigino wines of California that they were tramering the brick and mortar, no, the, and now, so it's kind of part of that move. Like this, there is more than just no, the simple bubbles. There's also the single vineyard bubbles that can create that category to be more exciting and geeky. So that's what we've seen. I think these two wines are very important to keep, you know, the excitement along the brand and wherever you're represented, the wines. First, you know, there was not a massive communication campaign to introduce the wine cell. It's very intimate, if you wish. And people have been very excited about it. They didn't know much about it. Also, the wine is very specific in the sense that it has a lower dosage, you know, so that gives even more sense of terroir. I think there is a whole narrative about them that, and I think Clark has a special meaning to you because you've been living in the vineyards for at least 25 years. I live right there. The vineyard is around this. So I know exactly the fog and the temperature. I can feel the place. This is really your baby, this one. Yes. So when the wine maker leaves literally in the vineyards and produce a wine from the vineyard when it's been living in, it is very, very special. This is the intangible wine that's something that cannot really always been explained, but there is some magic about it. And these wines are very different from a consumer standpoint. And I'm no expert. And they're very different interpretation of Rotterdam State, you know, which shows the rich nuts and the breadth, you know, the potential. And I can't wait for the next one if there is another one. There's less. But I think the untremished world, which is known as Somalia, and you add that to the world of the Somalia, you know, at the beginning of the show, is the Somalia like also showcasing something about the brand that is also very compelling. So the same vineyards are definitely, you know, something that would push for the untremished on the wine list is something that is exciting. And again, sure, geeky about your champagne, then you get to become geeky about your sprokeny wines from California. I always think it's interesting as you already have a flagship wine, the Italian, and to earth flagship, then you have the Tettacruve, and if you know, before are you taking away any of the best singers from your chorus, potentially to form those things, and how does that change? And like that battle must be tough as a, as a wine maker. In terms of these specialized wines, are you selling them D to C through the tasting room or those things they're pushing into high-end restaurants? Like what's your main sales channel for these wines? Yeah, I speak about the part like it was really, you know, something that offering for the DTC, for the fanatics of Rotterdam States, and then it was very, very well received. And the same time we carved out, you know, a portion of the cases that made more, especially for the untremished, for MMD to carry. I can say anything, you know, it's creating some buzz, creating some interests is what you need. So when you're stepping in the door of an account, you want to say, "Hey, I have something new, right?" And that's what's part of keeping the discussion for high-end restaurants, wanting to support Rotterdam States with something that would be, I would say geeky, interesting, and also showcasing the 40 years of history of where we are. So there'll be more to come, I guess, well, after me, and then the next guys, you know, but that's for now, that's a nice little. Speaking of more to come, and maybe this question is for both of you, so one at a time, we've heard about the last 40 plus years of Rotterdam States. What do you see for the next 40 years? Maybe, so obviously, do you want to start and then, or no? Well, I think it's very exciting, and what are you state? And the Anderson Valley, they have a brilliant future. Make me think that my first visit was about 40 plus years ago. And something that struck me and was speaking today from the winery, it's a gorgeous day, it's probably one of the most beautiful places in the world, not just in California, the US, one of the most beautiful places in the world. It has retained its authenticity, and nothing has changed much. Of course, when I met my first visit, I think they were like 607 wineries, that was back in September 1981, the first visit to the US, first visit to California, and I came here, and today they are like maybe 20-some 26 wineries. But fundamentally, the soul of the valley has not changed. It's a gorgeous place, it has become a destination for a lot of people in the barrier, but not just California. And this is in that context that all our state is going to continue to thrive, and I'll know what we'll speak about, the continuous progress, and maybe also how we benefit, maybe from climate change to make wines that are always in progress and offer a better experience to our consumers. Yeah, and that's the key word, making wine in this rural grape, between a state and we are doing gold, obviously. And if you grow grapes, you can plant them here with a span of life of four years, three years. And the key word now is Brazilian CN adaptation to the future. And this is only we've already started doing, and then we have to keep doing. You know what terms of density of foundation or orientation of the roads, do we have to store more water? No, I need to go through the water, because this is my year, I do a marriage. And this is all the things we've already done, or we've already started, and this is ongoing because things are never still and always changing. So the part of this interesting of the Anderson values, our proximity to the ocean means we still under that nice influence of the cool marine layer of the Pacific Ocean. So even though they'll be global warming, it won't mean that it was going to warm up so much that I won't be able to do the spiked wine. It's what like the condition of growing would become just sort of faster. And I've seen that over the last 25 years, it's just the intensity sometimes, it's just more. And just becomes quicker, or the shift of patterns, shift quicker, to go from very rainy year to a pretty dry year, that it's not flowing here, or like your harvest cycles. Instead of being spread out becomes more intense. And that's the part of the residency and adaptation. So will the some of the one making change a little bit? I'm pretty sure it would have to change a little bit to adapt to it. And it does already, I mean, interesting enough. And as an even though we have the latitude of 39 north, which is pretty much 1000 and then champagne, which is no 46, 47 north, it's a should be warmer climate, but actually most of the time, I have more acidity than in champagne because I picked just a little earlier than champagne. So the acidity level is higher. So I'm half to all the do this by some changes of doing some malo-lactic fermentation that we're not doing before the year 2000. It's kind of like a little change also in one making. And then that's malo-lactic fermentation changes from sometimes more like this year, 25 to some years, like on the draw here is to zero. So the adaptations and that's already happening. So it's one example. Interesting. So we'd like to wrap up each episode on a personal note. given the amount of experience you both have, we are curious, what is your most memorable winery visit that you've ever done and why? Yes, I'm not sure if it's the most memorable, but it's the one that we know, grabbed by Anton Trin, the most. So a friend from college, his name is Munir Salma. He had actually a previous life before he went to college. Actually, he was making wine in Lebanon and Israel and then he had, for personal reasons, to live in Israel and Lebanon and studied his college, one-making degree. And so it was much older than us because we were at the kids in college and he had the one with the experience, the life experience. So it was always great to hear from him. And then he went to work in Burden and then he made so many connections working over there. At some point his studies on business was called Lucien Ruan as a negocion. And he studied being able to actually make wine from those highly sought after appellations. Shassan Masha, Pubini, Murso, and he was a guy who actually had no roots really from the region, but it's the power of connection, the power of knowing the people and being able to tell them that they should trust him, you know, sending him grapes so he could make wine. And here he was, you know, studying from scratch and he could make wine under his label, something that you would think was not possible. You know, in a century old region like this, how can you start a new business with a new brand and he was able to do it? So, and I always felt that it was really totally outstanding that it was even possible to do. So that's why it was a memory of that power of connection and relationship. And Zaliyur Raya? As for many, I'm trying to solve it out, but wine is bigger than life sometimes. And I remember getting a call from one of my college buddies saying that one of us was not doing very well in France, you know, going through personal challenges. And it was January and I was going to France for our annual board. And I said, "Well, I'm going to take, you know, day off." And I set up a visit to Bergen, the Lwila tour at the time. The technical director was Boris Shampie, a long time friend of mine from this time at Domina's. And I gave him a call and I said, "I'd love to come and visit you." And again, it's January and Bergen, so I had a friend who was not doing very well and we liked to come with another buddy and he would like to support him and he loves wine. So here we are. And it's a beautiful day. It's freezing cold. We take the TGV from Paris. We get there and Boris picks us up. And we have tastings in the cellars of all the crew. And suddenly I see my friend kind of changing completely. His face, he started to smile, started to laugh. And so we go out to lunch with Boris. And there was a chef at the time who was a wife of his Japanese and he had a restaurant in the vineyards. And that day on the train back to Paris in the evening, I said, "Wine is magical." And that's probably one of the most significant winery visits I've ever made. And the phenomenal wines that Boris was showing that day, it was a moment of transformation for my friend who's been doing very well ever since. And that's when he pivoted. And this is, I think, the symbolic of wine bringing friends together, family, community, in good times, in more challenging times, put a good bottle of wine possibly a bit of worry state on the table and cheers to the life and to the season. Great. Well, thank you both for sharing such interesting stories focusing on the people and the connection that wine brings to you. It's great. It just talks about both of your characters and how you think about things. It's wonderful to hear. And Peter, I want to thank you for coming on and sharing all about Rotor-State in its previous 40 plus years and what it looks for in the future. So thank you both for joining this episode. Thank you, Robert. Thank you, Peter. It's always a joy and a privilege to be on your show. It was my pleasure to be on your show today. Thank you. Hey, listeners. If you love the show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes, but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relisten to an episode or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. 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