Leading in Radical Uncertainty: Can Conscious Capitalism Survive AI, Chaos, and Financial Gravity?

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the conscious capitalists with myself Timothy Henry and my partner making the world a better place through business, Raj Soesodia. Hey there Raj. Hey Timothy good to see you. Are you convobulated today Raj? It's important that we start this thing off in the right way. Yes we were we were playing with our word of the day which is "combobulation". We were often asked if we're discombobulated but how can we convobulate or recombobulate? Ah and that was touched off by the fact that TSA apparently has a recombobulation zone at airports. Who knew? Only in Milwaukee that I've seen. Only in Milwaukee as they say. Well today we have John Berghof who is a longtime friend of the conscious capitalism movement. John's what you might call a pioneer in the field of transformational facilitation. He's the founder of exchange which trains thousands of coaches, consultants and leaders in the art of conscious convening and we'll have a little bit of an intro in terms of what that is. He's designed and led transformational gatherings for global giants such as Facebook, BMW, NASA, HP, Google, Stanford University and of course us at conscious capitalism. His mission is to each others how to unlock the collective intelligence of groups and guide them into their highest potential every time they gather. To date over 26,000 change agents from over 50 countries have been trained or certified in the exchange approach. John Berghof, welcome to our show. Timothy Raj, it's fantastic to be with you. So one of the things that John has helped us with in the past and will continue to do and that's makes us sort of a special edition of our conscious capitalist podcast is today we're going to be talking about our CEO summit which is coming up on September 8th 9th and 10th in Beaver Creek, Colorado and if you want more information on our CEO summit go on over to consciouscapitalism.org and see some more information about that. So we're going to be talking about that and why we think it's special and different this year and why we think it's important for CEOs to be talking about some of the things that we'll be addressing and John's going to talk about how the facilitation process adds to making it a meaningful event beyond just the content. The experience itself and how do we make sure that that flows well naturally and in a meaningful way for everybody that's there. So maybe let me begin with a brief overview of the CEO summit this year as background to the rest of our dialogue. This year our theme is leading in radical uncertainty and what do we mean by radical uncertainty? Well at one level there's a geopolitical element of it. Are there tariffs not tariffs? What's happening with supply chains? What's happening with the dollar price of oil? You name it. Things are rather tumultuous right now. But in addition there's this little thing called AI and soon followed by quantum computing and robotics and nanotechnology. We haven't figured out blockchain yet and all the follow-on impacts of these things are going to be huge in terms of disruption to business. So as we look out over the next three to five years we're actually looking at a world in which disruption doesn't stop. As we like to say at one level it's raining out and if you going to wait until the rain stops you're going to be waiting a long time. So we have to learn to work in the rain. And with that as the context we have an overarching theme here. What does it mean one for me as a leader? That's the first point. How do I lead? How do I deal with this radical uncertainty? We're and I'm being asked to make more decisions faster with less information than ever before. So for that we're going to have some world-class speakers including my buddy Raj Shasodia talking about leadership and consciousness in this time. We're also going to have Amy Fox from Mobius talking about her new book leading in chaos. And what do these things mean for leaders today? How would conscious leaders show up today and how is that different than they might have been thinking about this even two or three years ago? The second major theme is around well what does that mean for my organization? How do I build engagement? How do I build a trust? How do I communicate in a transparent way at a time when there's so much we don't know? So how are people leading their organizations today? We're going to have a couple of CEOs, one Melanie Delbeco from Torrani. If you've had any flavored coffee it's probably been Torrani's flavoring. She leads an organization that's partly employee-owned but very agile in terms of how it reacts to and innovates in its market space. We're going to have the CEO Ashley Blumenfield from Standard Meat talk about a business that used to be stayed in steady but is no longer so the meatpacking business. We're Ashley and her company are winning awards for their innovative approach to how they're adding value to the food chain through their processing of meat. Well before it gets to the restaurant so it makes it healthier, safer, easier to use by processing the meat in one of their innovation labs. We'll be speaking to the Chief Merchandising Officer of Paxson, a leading brand in the Gen Alpha and Gen Z world, and powered by their CEO, Bri Olson's latest book Co-Creation in which they talk about how they co-create their brand and their products with their clients and customers. So we'll learn a lot about what it means to manage dynamic businesses in a dynamic way in a dynamic world. The third theme will be how do we prepare organizations for the future and that is built around the theme that we call the octopus organization. Based on the new book by Yana Werner who will be there with her co-author, talking about the octopus organization. Think of an octopus each tenacle. Independent has its own little mini-brain, operates and senses its environment accordingly. But when there's danger centrally coordinates and works to keep itself safe and protects itself. She'll talk about making the case for why that's the organization of the future and then we'll have Michele Zanini co-author of Human Octeracy along with Gary Hamill. Talking with Michael Laurie who's the Chief Transformation Officer at Bear Chemical. Bear Chemical going through a major transition with a new CEO who came from the biotech world and then into the Farmer world. Now is leading a major transformation that's people focus purpose-driven to describe and develop what they call a distributed type of organization. How do they live that octopus model? There about 1824 months into a transition there and we're going to have the opportunity to learn what they've learned. What's working? What's not working? You try to do these things. And then finally we're going to end with Steve Hall, our former board chair. Having a discussion with Steve Beard, CEO of Covista, about what it means to be a steward. In these times when everything is changing, what does steward chip mean? When you start looking out over the next three to five years, how do you have a steward chip mentality as you go into this world? So that's the arc of our theme in terms of how you lead with radical uncertainty. And this year it's a CEO only event. In the past we've had a mix of C-suite executives. This year we're trying to create an environment where CEOs can have a discussion with other CEOs about these really important topics. So having said that, that's the arc of the CEO summit and why we think you ought to be there. Having said that, another reason why you want to be there is John. John, you are known for conscious convening. Talk to us a little bit about what does that mean, conscious convening. Well, I'm sitting here enjoying as you're talking through all of the contributors and contributions that are coming into the summit. And one of the things Timothy that I have appreciated being in many of the prep calls with these speakers, and you've been on a good number of these with me, is if I had to name in one word the feeling that I've had talking to all of these wonderful luminaries, the word has been humility. And that while they're all bringing wisdom to this room, they each are aligned in this perspective that none of them alone have all the answers, which is in and of itself an expression of conscious convening. Conscious convening is an interesting choice of words we use. But in a nutshell, it's a set of tools and processes that we teach or use when we bring a group like this together or a leadership team. But it's based on a a really simple premise and that is that there is a human potential available when we come together. There's a wisdom in the room. And when we align around how to unlock that potential, some really important and meaningful outcomes can become possible. So at a high level, that's how we start to think about it. So when we pull on that a little bit and we say, okay, we're going to have this room full of CEOs. And we wanted to make it highly interactive. How would you describe what it means to make a highly interactive session with CEOs and the calibur of some of our speakers and their wisdom that they're bringing into the room as well? Yeah, well, it's a great question. And if you think about all of these exemplars and teachers that you named and you imagine for a moment, they're going to bring in a framework, a model, evidence, data, a story, insight, inspiration, whatever they're bringing in is likely going to be provocative or confronting or inviting for these CEOs to contemplate their own reality and our role and the role that I'll play at the CEO summit is going to be to invite very intentional moments where interspersed before, during, after the insight that comes from the stage, there's a chance to pause to literally take a breath and to contemplate and to contemplate, what did I just hear? What does this mean? What would it mean for me to apply this? How does this challenge what I'm currently doing? And then from there, we'll be inviting again and again in UN Raj. Have seen this. We did this the last three CEO summits. These moments of contemplation transitioning to moments of conversation. And yes, turning CEOs towards each other, there can be an obviousness to the utility to that. It certainly moves that moment from one that's passive to interactive, but there's so much that then becomes possible when the so-called learners now get to become teachers when we turn the room into the stage. So to speak, so much benefit is available when we mix and we create this dance between the learning from the stage and the learning that is generated through these conversations. It's not an either or. It's a it's a both-and. Well, I actually framed it because I think that nowadays, there's a real challenge of an abundance of information with AI, but probably a deficit of meaning and connection. So with so much information flowing at us now, so many dire threats or great opportunities presented by some of these technologies, how do you make sense of it? How do you create meaning from it? And how do you make connection? I think it's going to be critical. And I know Raj, you sometimes talk about the timeless versus the timely. And I'm curious how we're going to make magic with that job. You're observing something when you bring up the octopus organization, the idea that there's an intelligence in the room and a part of what we're aiming to achieve through how we're bringing these CEOs together is that collective intelligence to fully be invited. Now, this is just my humble opinion, but I think that is both a timeless invitation, but also timely. If we're navigating a world that's changing to an extent that these leaders have never faced it and some don't feel fully equipped, then it almost feels obvious that we need to figure out how to tap into the collective intelligence in the room. So in many ways, we're inviting an approach to convening that aligns with many of the very teachings coming into the room. So to us, this approach feels both timeless and timely. I was unsure of Raj, if you wanted to offer a perspective on that as well. So I think I agree. I think it's in the exchange between us that new things get created, that new insights can emerge beyond what we hear. And with the amount of experience that we have in that room, thousands of years literally of lived experience with leadership and with trying to be conscious in a world that seems to be pushing you in the other direction. I think that to me is one of the big challenges as well, right now. In addition to all the other things that we've talked about, there is kind of, where the external environment can either amplify or try to diminish your efforts in this direction. I think we are in a time where there has been so this negative external force against consciousness to a degree. And so I think we have to learn how to fight, you know, Eric Rees has an interesting metaphor of financial gravity. So there is financial gravity that always pulls companies towards this idea of just looking at the business as a money making machine. And that's the only thing that you're supposed to try to optimize or maximize. And so we have to, you know, you cannot fight gravity in the sense that you cannot negate it. But once you understand gravity, then you can actually figure out how to make something fly without the knowledge of gravity. You really can't make something fly as well. So I think all of that is sort of the macro air that we are breathing or the water that we're swimming in right now. And I think for a lot of leaders in that room, they are confronting those challenges and trying to stay true to this, this higher calling, higher ambition with which they're trying to lead the businesses. I think that will be a big part of it, that collective courage, in addition to insights, that how do we stay true to these principles in a time when things are pushing in the other direction? Well, what I like about all of this approach is that it creates dialogue. Now the interesting question is how do you create a sense of cohesion or trust in the room in order to create the time and space for people to have real dialogue and really sort of share what's deeply on their mind? And John, I'm wondering if you and Raj can walk us through. You know, walk us through John, what one of these sessions might look like in terms of how you do that? And who better to do it with than Raj who's going to be there making his presentations? So maybe walk through a little bit of the underlying logic and then specifically, you know, maybe a little bit about what might happen in Raj's presentation. Well, maybe I can begin with just an observation on how do we contribute to a container where people feel safe enough to name what's true, to have real meaningful conversations and then Raj, maybe we could tilt over towards some of the insight that you're going to be bringing in. I actually have in my hand right here the 2.0 conscious capitalism chapters that you gave me a chance to preview. And I'm really energized that you're going to be bringing that insight into this room. I believe that's the plan as of now. And we could give an example of how we would take that kind of insight and build upon it a question or a contemplation. But I'll just I'll start with one distinction Timothy from my experience in having the privilege of supporting rooms like this. It's certainly not a safe space because I tell them it is. To me, that would just be maybe coercion. I think what enables that type of safety. Of course, we can invite agreement around confidentiality and whatnot. But at the end of the day, when two CEOs turn towards each other and they're genuinely given the space and the freedom of choice in how they come into that space to share what brought them in the room, to share what's true for them, to share what they're challenged by. What we find is that there's always more than enough of these participants who the whole reason they're in that room is they want to have that honest dialogue. And ultimately, we have a role as designers and facilitators. But the best of our humaneness, when we turn people to each other, it's amazing how they create the conditions between each other for that type of honesty. When we talk about trust or safety, I always feel I want to acknowledge Amy Edminson and her original research on this topic. And there's a line in her book Fearless Organization. And it's not the whole answer, but it's a big part of the answer to what what creates safety in a room like this. And she talks in her research about the degree to which voices feel equally invited in, not required to contribute, but invited and invited equally. And if you look at everything we facilitate, there's always freedom of choice. But by being mindful of the sizes of the groups and even curating who's with who it's amazing when given the space and the container, how these CEOs will be brave and they will lean in to speak what's true, to listen to each other, to support each other. So I'm not diminishing the role I have in creating that space. But when we set a collective intention and we come into a room under the umbrella of conscious capitalism, there's already a shared purpose in that room to do things in a way that are more conscious. So in some ways, it's a. I don't want to say easier, but the conditions are ripe at an event like this for very honest confronting and personal conversation. So I'll just start with that for what it's worth and Raj, if you wanted a speaking of honest personal confrontation, share anything about maybe what you intend on sharing with the room. I think it could be very interesting. Yeah, so I'll be in a conversation with Michael Hart from Lars Parking and we'll be facilitated by John and we're really going to look at this idea of the broad question of can consciousness still win or can it prevail over time? And as you mentioned, John, one of the new chapters in the second edition of conscious capitalism is remaining conscious or staying conscious, staying awake in a way. As I say, it's one thing to awaken as another to stay awake. And we have many examples now of companies that we deemed recognized, celebrated in the past as highly conscious companies. And many of them have fallen off of that standard and some of them have gone pretty far in the other direction. And so that brings up the question of how do you sustain this? How do you keep this going? When all of the forces, the external forces of financial gravity, the climate that we're in, the sort of the prevailing mindsets that we have, the so-called tendency of professional management to really move away from some of these ideas and go back to purely shareholder centric kind of way of being. How do we create mechanisms, structures, ways in which companies can actually sustain this way of being over time? We know that it works. We know when you do it right, combined with a sound strategy and a strong value proposition, that all of these principles of conscious capitalism add to your ability to compete and your ability to prosper and to create greater value. We know that. And it's almost self-evident that engaged and happy employees are going to be more productive and more creative and more contribute more that satisfied customers will be your best marketers and so forth. But how does that get lost and how do we sustain that over time? And I think Michael is going to add the governance side of that, which is very important. How do you create governance structures that are going to actually protect the mission, the purpose, the values, the ethos, the principles of this organization through economic cycles, through changes in leadership, through changes in ownership, there are ways to make these things endure. And I think that is, that is very important because you can't just have one brief shining moment of consciousness and then you sink back into that sea of unconsciousness. You want companies that will stand the test of time, not only for decades, but centuries hopefully. And be that exemplar and continue to grow involved in that way. So I think that is the great challenge of our time. How do you maintain this? It's one thing, as I said, to adopt these principles, but how do you sustain and deepen them over time? That will be a question that we will address and open it up all as well. I think that will invite wisdom from the room of how people are navigating that or how they have thought about it. So let me get this straight. We're going to do conscious convening on the topic of how to keep consciousness at the forefront of how we develop our leaders in our businesses. Just checking, John, is that where we're going with this session? I feel perfectly combobulated now. I think that's the critical thing here. John, you know, in this idea of conscious convening, when you think about some of the breakthrough moments you've witnessed, maybe talk a little bit about what they were, but as importantly, what fed into them? And what does that mean for our CEO summit? Gosh, I love that question. There's many stories that come to mind. I want to pick five stories from conscious capitalism, CEO summits. I'll start with one. There was an opening interaction that we hosted prior to, it may have been the 2023 CEO summit. And I'll ask for the two of you to help me with the pronunciation of names because they were one of several hundred and I'm trying to remember the exact persons. But I remember we facilitated a check-in of sorts, where before there was anything presented, the room got into small groups and they got to connect and the exact question at the moment, it was probably along the lines of, what did you overcome to be here? Or what brought you to this room? Or what do you hope to get from being in this room? These questions are often simple, but I'll always remember coming out of that. I believe it was Jervace. Jervace? Warner. So there's certain moments it's hard to forget when you're facilitating. I remember coming out of that conversation, which as I describe it, it sounds so seemingly simple. And he took the microphone and spoke into the room and he said, he said, I traveled here, I checked in, it was that conversation that helped me to understand that I'm in the right place and I belong. And I believe that example is just a microcosm of when we bring people together and we connect them in certain ways. If they can feel that they belong, they can feel they're in the right place and then they can see how they can contribute. We're striking all the notes of what really builds community. I got to sneak one more in because it was just one of those things that's hard to predict. There was a moment when the gentleman who founded the Brooks shoe company gave this beautiful presentation about navigating challenge and adversity from a purpose-centered place. And after that conversation or after that presentation, the whole room broke into small groups and we handed the microphone around and folks brought into the room moments where they had handled adversity in a way that was purpose-centered. So it's learning full, it's connective. And I'll always remember that the last gentleman that took the mic shared the story about how new balance, correct, about how his new balance shoes and the interaction that he had within a new balance associate literally changed the direction of his life. This doesn't always happen. But there's synchronicities that arise when we give room for the room to connect around the insights that get brought in. One other moment, if I can share, that I'll never forget was in 2020, three as well, I may believe. It was when Lynn Twist opened up the conference and she led almost a ceremony of sorts. She also closed that conference with the ceremony. But she invited the room in this beautiful way to connect to our ancestors who had come before us and to connect to everybody who will come after us. And look, whether someone's really leaning into the conscious side of something like this, or we're thinking about the impact of our business, I remember that experience that Lynn facilitated taking an entire room to a place where they viscerally felt like they were honoring all of their teachers and mentors and simultaneously reconnected to the real lasting impact of their business. And that may not sound like a business conversation, but it's why it was at the beginning. It anchored us in a deep sense of purpose. I remember that moment. It really stands out. I don't know. Those are just a few that come up on the spot. Yeah, and I think it illustrates how it's going to that place of safety and conversation that you then get to a place where you can address real problems and issues. Because I think one of the things that we think is critical to something like this summit is that you come out of it with two or three really relevant things that are important to your business, how you can take the practical advice. And it's this interesting dynamic between creating a safe container with whatever real conversations about real topics that are on their mind so they can get to real answers and real things that they can take back with them. And in that note, we're also, Jon, you know, I know we're in discussions about the flow that comes after the summit and some of the things that we're talking about. So it doesn't become just a one-off. We open to the container. Let's put it back. And yep, I got two or three cookies out of the cookie jar. But how do we keep the cookie jar open? How do we continue the dialogue as we leave the summit and go forward? Yeah. Well, it's an energizing conversation because it could be left to chance. It could be accidental or it can be designed. It can be very intentional. And right now we and others on the conscious capitalism team have been imagining and going into that design conversation. And it's worth appreciating that one of the lessons that COVID revealed to us is how much we can achieve when we're not in person. Now, by the same token, I can't wait a month from now, rise. for you and Michael to bring forward the distinctions you do, because somebody could read that or watch it, but they could only if they're in that room turn to two of their peers and have a profound conversation, like in a container we've created. And what we've also learned is that these processes we lead in a room, we can continue to lead meaningful interaction after we leave that room. So we're meeting just today about ways to take what happens in the room to build momentum and to give these CEOs a chance to opt in to continue to connect to support each other around their challenges and leading through uncertainty. So we have a whole suite of ideas that we're going to be bringing into the summit to keep that momentum going forward afterwards. I have to leave these as a surprise for the attendees, but the underlying principle is to remember that a summit like this, the true impact, it doesn't start an end when we walk in and out. It builds on the way, but it's a concentrated moment that can be transformative, but it can also set in motion relationships, thinking, opportunities that we can support with afterwards. And I know we're energized to do that this year. John, when you look back on your journey to conscious convening, what are a couple of the two or three crucible moments or things that pushed you in this direction versus, you know, the typical quote unquote facilitation, what makes your journey to this place? What has really made that? So there's two stories that come to mind. The first is prior to founding our company. I was a senior leader for the Vitamix Corporation. And at the time, Jody Berg and her cousin, Laurie Connors. Oh, just by the way, the CEO is coming from Vitamix. That's right. He and I spoke last week and he's going to be there. So fantastic. Full circle moment for you, John. I know. I can't wait. So, so Joe, I was there when Jody was the CEO, Laurie was the CFO. They're the great granddaughters of the founder of Vitamix. Fourth generation family on that's its own extraordinary story. But I was brought in at a pretty young age to a pretty significant responsibility. And I remember I had a lot of doubt and insecurity. And Jody and Laurie were the ones who pulled me aside and said, we didn't bring you in here over this sales engine because we think you have all the answers. We think you're going to be capable of inviting the answers to come from wherever they need to come from. And it was the sigh of relief. But they introduced me to a perspective on leading that's not about having the answers. But maybe the questions and the willingness to create space to bring in as much wisdom as we can from wherever we need. That was a crucible moment. And I'll tell you one other after I left Vitamix after an extraordinary time. In 2015ish around the time we were founding our company, I had spent time sitting with firms of endearment and conscious capitalism. And it brought me to a conscious capitalism chapter event here in Cleveland. And there was some guy speaking who I didn't know who he was named Joe Jaworsky. I got to the event late. And I had to do the walk ashamed of the front of the room. The only seat was at this front table. And I'm like, hey, I'm going to go sit down and I sat right as Joe started presenting. And I quickly realized that what he was sharing, which was his journey and his story of being a leader at the seat of one of the largest energy companies in the world, Royal Dutch Shell, and talking about what it was like to try and bring a conscious approach as a scenario planner. And within his story, he was sharing his perspective not only that when a group comes together, there is a collective singular intelligence that's available, but that the facilitator has an important role. That was a crucible moment for me. And a fun ending to the story is he got off the stage. The meeting was done. And he didn't know who I was. I didn't just met him. And he said, oh, you want to come to lunch. I thought it would be a room with 40 other attendees. And it was just myself and Joe and his partner Susan and my partner Scott. And he became a mentor to us. And I know he's a mentor to you, Raj, and has written the forward at least one of your books. That was a crucible moment because at the time, I don't think we knew as a company that our focus was going to be leading leadership meetings. We just knew it was going to be purpose centered in human centered and Joseph really helped us. Yeah. Well, what I love about our CEO summits and especially John's approach to facilitating them, now it's not only the head, but also the heart and the soul that is in the room. And so there's a lot of emotional connection. There's vulnerability, which we say is not a liability. It's a ability. And we have to be vulnerable. We're human. Show up as fully human. And recognize both the incredible upside or also the incredible potential harm that can be done through business if you don't do it with with love and with with the intentionality. And so I think that that dimension is missing from many gatherings, which are very much about head-to-head connection. And I think you're there. People like Lynn certainly bring that heart and we try to do that in multiple ways. And I think that's very important. I had the unusual experience in an MBA class at Bapsunov teaching a case on a bank of all things, a conscious bank in the Netherlands called triodos. And I look up and I see two of my students are literally in tears. I said, "What happened, guys? What's causing these tears?" I said, "We worked in banking for many years. We did not know banking could be so beautiful." And I said, "Anything can be beautiful. Everything can be beautiful when you do it with purpose and with love." And so I think that dimension of recognizing the power of what we have in our hands, this instrument of capitalism or business. It can do so much in the world. It has done so much, but it can do so much more when it is done with love and when it is done with full awareness. And I think awakening that in leaders is an important part of what we bring as a conscious capitalism movement. It's the heart and it's the soul. We have to be inspired and you have to be emotionally connected with what you're doing and why you're doing it. It's not just an intellectual exercise of optimizing efficiency, much more than that. So I think that's something that happens in our gatherings and it's really a priceless part of that experience. So I love it. We're going to try to create and hold a container where we can make connections, where we can create meaning from all of the things that are happening right now. And then finally that you can make the relevant cheer business and something that you can take home with you, either as a leader yourself or in something you can do with your with your company. John Gerroth, thank you so much for stepping in to be our facilitator for our CEO Summit. Raj was always great to see you and see you on the stage on again September 8th 9th and 10th in Viva Creek, Colorado. Go to Conscious Capitalism.org to find out more about our CEO on the event. And thank you both so much. Be well. Thank you Timothy. Take your eyes, take care.