Speaker 1Course correction is not actually emitting failure. It's actually, again, it's part of the mess. Sometimes you have to slow down and realize that, you know, you can't get too far ahead of your troops or you may be mistaken for the enemy.
Speaker 2Everybody's in this scenario. The idea that some people have that it's going to be completely orderly and controllable, that's just ludicrous. It is not the ability to control, it's the ability to adapt to the given circumstance. Welcome to Science of Leadership, where we explore leadership both practically and scientifically. What makes great leadership, why these things matter, and how we can do them well. Those are the questions we wrestle with through thoughtful discussions and real-world stories. Whether it's in books, articles, or podcasts, a lot of leadership materials portray leadership as a way of understanding the world. And I think that's a great way to at least when done well, as remarkably orderly and almost routine. Define the vision, develop the strategy, communicate clearly, align the team, and execute. Wash, rinse, and repeat. But anyone who has actually spent much time leading knows that just isn't the way it usually works. As we've discussed throughout this podcast, leaders more often operate with incomplete information, competing priorities, and unclear authority alongside people who see the same situation very differently. Sometimes the real challenge is, isn't figuring out the right strategy, it's figuring out what is really going on. My guest today has spent years thinking about this and studying the problem, how leaders make sense of complex and dynamic situations. Over more than three decades, Daniel Atlin has led senior roles across Canada's higher education, cooperative, and government sectors, working with leaders through strategic planning, mergers, fundraising, and major institutional change. In the midst of that experience, he wondered why leadership often looks different in practice than it does in theory. He said, I think it's important to learn how to be a leader. As part of an executive master's degree through Oxford Said Business School and HEC Paris, Daniel interviewed 25 university presidents in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand to understand how senior leaders make sense of complexity as it unfolds. Today, he works as a strategic advisor, executive coach, educator, and an adjunct professor, and he also hosts the podcast Messy with Daniel Atlin, where he explores how leaders make sense of uncertainty, connect personal and organizational purpose, and act when there aren't simple answers. Daniel, thanks for joining me on this podcast. I'm Daniel Atlin, and I'll see you next time. Thanks, Tom. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, Daniel, I'm curious to know the story behind the question that seems to have informed a lot of what you've been doing. Why does leadership look so different in practice than it does in theory? What led you to exploring that space?
Speaker 1It's really quite an interesting sort of story. I was working in these complex institutions, and I call them as complex because they've got multiple stakeholders. They have multiple ROIs. They're dealing with a lot of external sort of funding as well. So they're not the traditional ones where you could say, you know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. You know, you're making a project, you're making a widget, you know, you're delivering on certain results. And I saw that, especially in universities, which I think are one of some of the most complex organizations on the planet, that leadership was really difficult. And people expected leaders to be able to, I'd say, you know, do that little bit of what you described early on, you know, in the intro, be in a straight line. So sort of, you know, have a great idea, implement things quickly. And that's not the case. So I really wanted to find out, you know, really, what's more about, you know, what's the value of leadership? And what's the value of leadership? And what's the nature of leadership? How actually, you know, leaders can actually, you know, perhaps survive and thrive in this type of environment and actually bring about change. So that's what led me to going back to school after a break of, you know, close to 40 years. So I went back to school and surprisingly, I really quite enjoyed it. And I ended up, you know, interviewing these leaders across the, you know, the Anglosphere, what I call it. And, you know, came up with an understanding that, you know, these leaders don't know the answers. They actually just use an approach. And that's what I sort of learned was an approach that they use to be able to be successful in their jobs and thrive in the uncertainty. So I changed that question. It wasn't about, you know, how they actually bring about change. It was actually more about how they actually survive their ever-changing and dynamic, complex system that they're working in. So that's what led me to the development of my framework. I think that's important
Speaker 2because even as you're talking about this adaptability, really, and there's this concept of, you know, called career construction theory. And in that, they talk about, they basically break down into four different domains. Let's see, adaptivity, adaptable, adaptability, and some other, adapting, I think is the, is the, is actually third in the four, if I'm remembering correctly. Ultimately, it is about, we're given a context, we're given a situation, an environment that is ever-changing. You know, we talk about VUCA, volatility, uncertainty, chaos, and, and ambiguity. That's our context, whether we like it or not. And so as you, as you've just hit on, I think it is not the ability to control, it's the ability to adapt to the given circumstance, seems like. Very much so.
Speaker 1And, and, you know, what I found is actually it's, it's basically these leaders are continually swaying, going through a process, and that's actually making sense of their situations, their context, their environments around them in real time. And they're doing that sort of on two levels, Tom, you know, first they're making sense of themselves. And I know you've spoken a lot about this on, on your show about how leaders have to know, you know, you know, their own biases. They have to know, you know, their triggers as well. They have to know what they're bringing to the table from past learned experience that may be influencing their decisions, their approach. And they've got to, in some ways, you know, be able to, I think, adjust that depending on the moment as well. So that self-knowledge is so important. And I call that, you know, making sense of yourself. And then at this other same time, actually, because they lead organizations, which are groups of people and complex stakeholders and things, they've got to make sense of others too. And they do that through a process of organizational sense-making, which is, you know, they have to come back, do a lot of exploration and gathering, you know, the facts, the figures. And I say, they have to come back and construct a map, which is sort of almost like a Google, Google map that's changing, you know, in real time and continually sort of had that map in mind, create a compelling story and narrative to be able to drive forward and to really be able to, to, um, adapt as well. And, and improvise as well as things change. So it's really trying to, to, to operate and lead in a decision that is continually fluid and changing and, and really being able to, to, to survive and, and, and, and putting aside that control actually. So I call it actually how they have to lead in the mess because the mess is the nature.
Speaker 2Before we get into this word messy, because that's, uh, I do want to have you expound on that some, but you, you were saying sense-making is a word that is kind of buzzwordy a little bit, in, in some circles and leadership, but you, you were saying something about make sense of yourself. And that got me curious. And I was just wondering if you could expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 1Yeah. And, and I must admit that, you know, when I started, um, on, on, on, on my research, um, and when I came up with my dissertation that, um, actually making sense for yourself, wasn't a big part of it, but I've continued in discussions with leaders since then. And, um, I've met a few of them that have made me, you know, want to modify this and, and they, they now understand the importance of actually this. And this is sometimes, I think, um, the unseen part of, of, of leadership, which is actually all the inner work that you have to do to show up. So, so, you know, what I realized and through a couple of conversations in particular, that these successful leaders really actually are, are, are very reflective. They're reflective. They, um, understand that they're one piece of a larger system. So they better be able to show up, you know, the best that they can in order to, to have the greatest of influence and impact on that system. And so, so, you know, it's, it's very, very important that they're, they're able to, in some ways, regulate their emotions and their responses rather than actually sometimes, you know, um, um, coming in, um, and going strong. They need to be able to, you know, lead with, you know, curiosity as well, um, asking questions rather than bringing the answers because that's the way that you, you know, you, you demonstrate leadership, I think, in these complex, you know, situations as well. And they need to really be able to, to be aware on their shoulder, um, which actually may be whispering things that, that, uh, either you worked in your past and you're bringing to the present day to, as a tool or else they're actually, you know, undermining you perhaps as well, because you may have imposter syndrome or you may have, uh, experiences in the past that have triggered you. So there's a lot of, of, of that that's so important to, to bring to the table as a leader, which I had missed initially, um, those nuances, but I brought them, um, further, um, up, up, up into the limelight, I'd say, you know, later on. I'm reminded of,
Speaker 2um, the words of Sansa, which is Mandarin for know thy enemy and know thyself and you should not fear the outcome in 100 battles. And, and so it is both know thyself, which is this sense-making that you're talking about and know the other, not necessarily enemy, but know your battle space and everybody else that you're interacting with and how is that going to affect what you're doing? So I'm reminded of that. Uh, let's get back to this, this idea of the mess and messy. You, you've used that word mess and messy to describe leadership. And I mean, it's the title of your, your podcast. And when you use it to describe leadership, what are you, what are you meaning with that?
Speaker 1Yeah. Great question, Tom. Thanks so much. And, and I've fallen in, I guess, you know, uh, very attached and, and, and really liked the word messy because it actually, you know, came out through my discussions about, about, you know, what leaders were experiencing as they actually, you know, began their days and their approaches. And, and I realized that, um, you know, the leaders that actually think that they have. plan. You know, they're locked into these ideas. They're the ones that actually usually crash and burn in these complex systems like hospitals or universities. It's the ones that actually have realized that, you know, it is actually the nature of a university or these complex institutions to be messy. I draw back to, I'm sure you're aware of that David Foster Wallace sort of installation speak to Kenyon College, where he talked about, you know, what is water? And I think so oftentimes leaders don't understand that, you know, their water that they're living in is actually mess. It really is all around you that nothing is certain and it's all permeable. And of course we have to actually, you know, have frameworks and bring some, you know, scaffolding to be able to get through that mess, but it is the nature of the organization. And what really pleased me was when I sent back my dissertation to some of the leaders that I sent, that I had interviewed, they actually said, thank you for naming it. Thank you for describing, you know, the actual nature of leadership in these organizations. They found that in itself to be sort of liberating. So mess to me is not pejorative. It's not a negative word. And it's also not something to actually try and get rid of because you'll never get rid of it. So that's why that concept is actually so important and central to what I've been doing. Let me pause from our
Speaker 2conversation to ask you, the listener, a question. Are you ready to turn leadership principles into daily practice? Are you ready to become the leader you're capable of being? If so, my new book, the four stars of leadership development guide is specifically designed to help you do that. You'll get a 12 week program designed to help you strengthen your character, competence, caring, and communication. Each chapter comes with focused reflection, illustrative stories that bring the concepts to life and concrete actions you can apply immediately. No matter where you are in your leadership journey, it's a resource that is guaranteed to help you. You can find it online at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and essentially all outlets where you get your books. Get your copy today and begin learning. Becoming the leader you're capable of being. Now let's get back to this interesting conversation. Early on there, you were talking about imposter syndrome and then that those people who were in those leadership positions in organizations, after you completed your work and returned it to them, they were able to say, okay, I'm not the only one who feels like I'm in this topsy turvy washing machine of leadership lives. I'm not the only one who feels like I'm in this topsy turvy washing everybody's in this scenario and that's the state of it that's the again back to VUCA that's the VUCA nature of complex organizations you're dealing with multiple people multiple fronts multiple stakeholders and demands that that are changing moment to moment a lot of times and so the idea that some people have that it's going to be completely orderly and controllable that's another word that's just sort of ridiculous honestly is that's just ludicrous this sort of thinking but once you it seems recognize that yes this is the state of things and this is the way things are going to be there's no hey it's going to be all better tomorrow and once you can develop that outlook and and activate on whatever adaptability you have I think you're you're going to be in a much better
Speaker 1place absolutely and and you know you know it it's we forget I think that organizations and in many ways they're they're they're like like um living living beings right like they're they're we all of us we're we're we're you're a doctor I don't need to tell you that you know we're all we're always evolving we're you know we're part of us dying at the same time we're part of us growing right so so it's it's um change is part of our of our own lives like literally physically but it's also all around us as well and and uh so we better get used to it and and the more comfort we can take in in that sort of sort of sort of ongoing sort of change you know which is the book environment that's internal but it's also external too you know the the more successful I think will be in all aspects of our life as well I'm curious uh just
Speaker 2about because I've done this sort of work with regards to and you were doing with University Presidents and that and I've done it with academic physicians and and also with four-star military officers and some others but I'm I'm interested just about the story of your work with University Presidents you know I'd like to hear something about that and then what surprised you about how those folks uh actually deal with these sorts of environments yeah
Speaker 1as you say I can I continue to be in discussions and I I continue to to coach and and be an executive culture advisor to us uh universities and their presidents as well I've I presented as well to to University board chairs and and governing Councils and and everyone seems to to resonate with this I'd say that you know getting people aware of both of these you know these two different sort of approaches um that need to be combined for leadership it's been very very important I think for people and and letting people understand that they have to spend more time especially on making sense of themselves which I think is oftentimes you know you know really forgotten especially when when we have such a VUCA day ahead of us right where where every minute is actually you know scheduled and you know going from meeting to meeting from complex problem to complex problem who has time to really be reflective right but I think that was actually you know a big Aha to people and I've been in in in discussions whether it's in a group or in one-on-one and people say I my God I didn't realize how important it was this this the self-reflection element they said I'm doing all these you know shortcuts in my brain about decision making right that that are based on on perhaps you know what Deborah and Kona may say is family ghosts or or past behaviors and learn learn situations when if I really have thought about that I'd actually react differently as well so so um it it it's great to see sort of that light bulb I'd say go off on in leaders you know heads when actually they recognize that importance too and the need to build in that time somehow in their day here's a question
Speaker 2I've been pondering as we've you know and looking forward to our conversation is and that's do highly experienced leaders become better at seeing complexity and responding to it or just more comfortable recognizing that they don't completely understand it that's like a chicken and egg
Speaker 1sort of conversation and I and I think you know um like like everything I think I think there's no you know it depends I think it depends on on the leader I think some have had more experience and and you know ability to adapt and I and I think you know others may be coming to this after you know after a few different failures and after you know false starts and and perhaps a you know um had to rethink how they approach things so what I'm trying to do I think is actually you know speed up the process in some ways so so so that people you know can actually get to to understand you know you know the approach a little bit faster than actually having to experience it and sort of organically and innately sort of sort of sort of appreciate it but I have I have met with people who have said you know you know this is very much you know you know um how I operate because it's based on my discipline that that I studied perhaps or or you know whether they're you know philosopher perhaps philosophers seem to be able to get this and understand this a little bit more than others neuroscientists can can can get this a little bit too because there's a connection of of how we how we actually you know our brain shows up I'd find as well that you know people in in planning I was talking talking to a a university president of a very large University and um who was an urban planner and and he understood this this this is this completely and got it very quick rapidly you understand that that process because that's a lot of what you know goes behind urban planning so it depends a little bit I'd say on on your background your your your your your lived experience and also your your approaches but I would just say that that not everyone actually has this though too and I'm sure Tom you've seen it as well that you know some people just don't seem to learn right some people don't seem to be able to yeah they don't seem to be able to learn from failure and be able to shift their behavior they think that's that's who they are people come at this from different ways but but I think everyone has the ability I'd say to be one of these sort of change-making um sense-making leaders
Speaker 2yeah it reminds me of Carol Dweck's work on growth mindset versus fixed mindset and those people that come at it with a fixed mindset and this is who I am and I can't change that versus those who can you know see this as a learning growth opportunity and that's certainly what I've tried to foster in myself and in my children so let's get to what we would call the so what uh in our conversation why does this matter what happens uh when and I think we probably can guess but what happens when leaders move too quickly from from the messy situation to a diagnosis if you will uh and and then right to action what happens then
Speaker 1yeah well first of all thanks for mentioning Carol Dwight she's a you know I've been a great sort of sort of resource for me as well throughout my my career and and uh um I also think that you know I've got to do a shout out not just to Carl like who who who sort of introduced organizational sense making to the world but also you know Deborah Ankana who who's continued that and how to apply it in the workplace and also the adaptive leadership work of uh um uh Minsky and and high fits too so so so really great sort of um works that actually I think have have influenced me in my approach as well so um yeah I I I I'd say that you know leaders who who don't sort of sort of sort of operate this way they end up you know having situations that that um you know are not successful and if they continue to have a lot of those they're not going to have success in their career and they're also going to have I think challenges and probably in their personal life too because you know those that try to control too many things you know you know end up um I'd say going a little bit crazy too And I've seen this, you know, in real life for certain And it reminds me of a parable or a quote that a former boss of mine used to say About the importance of bringing people along And he used to say that, you know, there's that famous line that, you know You can't get too far ahead of your troops or you may be mistaken for the enemy, right? So it's very important to make sure that people are brought along on this journey And understand that because if not, they're going to see that you're sort of not worth following, I guess Or perhaps that you're not on their team
Speaker 2That's a good thing to recognize As I've been thinking about this, I thought about this concept, what's called premature closure I don't know if I've mentioned this on any of our podcast episodes before or not But at least in medicine, premature closure is this idea of you have very limited information But you've seen a given situation enough that you automatically say this is the answer And you don't consider other potentialities or diagnoses in the case of medicine And while you may be right 95% of the time That other 5%, you totally miss, you know, the diagnosis and the treatment and all that And that's a bad outcome And so the necessity to gather enough information to withhold the judgment, the determination, the action plan Until you have a modicum of understanding of what's going on While yet not waiting too long And I think that's the balance on this Is knowing how to pump the brakes enough to get enough information Colin Powell said, you know, get 70 to 80% of the information and make a decision Because you're never going to have 100% And if you did, you'd be too late anyway So striking that balance Because if you jump in too fast Which I think a lot of times in these messy situations People have a tendency to do You're going to mess it up You're not going to think about what are the second What we call the second and third order effects of your decisions And we certainly see that happening all over the place right now Let's take AI as an example AI is a really messy situation And people are just plowing ahead Like they've made decisions and they're just going after it And what are the repercussions of that and so forth Anyway, that's a contemporaneous thing That came to mind with regard to this But these are real things Like getting this wrong I think that's why it's so important But anyway, those are some thoughts I had Thinking about what you were saying And then coming into the conversation
Speaker 1I can really relate to that, Tom And, you know, it comes back in some ways I guess to Amy Edmondson's work too, right? Like, you know, about how to fail well and learn from that And then, you know, turn that around and change and adapt too, right? And I know she uses actually, you know Hospitals and doctors as a ground for that And that's a great sort of point for this as well About the need for us to be able to, you know Continually sort of take a look at the information we have And change course if necessary To be able to actually be successful at the end How much do you
Speaker 2think that poor leadership In these complex situations actually arises As a result of somebody solving the wrong problem? Because they haven't identified the situation correctly
Speaker 1I think we're seeing a lot of times Leadership seems to be, you know, addressing symptoms Rather than actually, you know, the root cause, right? And it comes back to your medical analogy as well, I think You know, in wicked problems, you know The solutions require, you know A lot of people being brought to the table Probably, you know, from different perspectives And able to deal with part of that problem Because one single solution is not going to be able to achieve And we're seeing that, I think In governments and in corporations and everything Everyone wants to actually treat symptoms, it seems Rather than actually really getting to the root cause The root of the problem So I think it comes back to that rush for action, right? That rush for action That the desire and belief that you actually have Some control and agency, you know, in order to resolve things Sometimes you have to slow down and realize that, you know You're going to have a different approach Bringing more people to the table Maybe creating more coalitions Maybe actually, you know, slowing down And dealing with these things In Canada right now, we've got a very significant, you know Housing problem, right? Where a lot of people are unhoused They're on the streets for different reasons And people think, well, you know, we can either just, you know Build houses and that will solve the problem Or else, you know, give people money to be able to rent houses When we have to actually take a look at the broader sort of Socioeconomic and other issues that are actually driving that
Speaker 2Despite what's going on, we are so similar, right? Canada and the U.S. in so many ways And let me just say that I think that most of the populace In the United States is for Canada, okay? So, yeah I was thinking as you were saying You know, as you were talking about action When you said that word It caused me to think about And this gets into a crazy study idea That just popped in my head as you were talking too Was how have And this isn't something to answer But it's just sort of flowed out there rhetorically How have examples of pop culture and media Specifically media Movies, video games, those sorts of things That are so focused on moment-to-moment action Explosions, all that sort of stuff Created in us an expectation that things must be All this action must be happening immediately Or nothing is happening I mean, if we look back across, you know Just cinematic history Like the movie Citizen Kane Which is heralded as one of the greatest movies ever I'm sure my kids wouldn't be thrilled to watch it Because there's no action, right? I mean, there's so much with lighting And the sound and all that That's creating this story That's a powerful story But it is not a fast-moving story It's extraordinarily powerful And you walk away with something from it I don't know that you walk away from anything From Transformers or whatever You know, with anything that you're going to be telling Your grandkids about someday or something And so it seems like Perhaps we've hurt ourselves By creating this milieu Where there's an expectation of immediate action and result That then induces the sense among leaders That they have to respond to people's expectations And act rapidly When in fact that causes more harm than it causes good
Speaker 1Absolutely And I think, you know There's two elements there That I'd love to just sort of pick up And one of them is Absolutely the penchant for action We've got to keep moving, right? Like, you know, or else we're going to get bored, right? Like, you know And I think there's that That sort of, you know I'd say that it's even increased More with social media Where, you know We always have to be doing something The perception that we've got to be, you know Filling our moments with activity But the other thing I think that, you know Cinema and books and even stories have done Is created that myth of a hero, right? Like, and that's one individual That can actually save the world Or, you know, save a situation And, you know, in reality In reality, we require, you know Groups and teams And a broader society And I think that's one of the things that I see Is actually a real challenge right now, Tom Is that we've got a lot of individuals Either they're leaders Or actually even showing up in regular life And that perhaps it's the rise of influencers But with this, you know Central character syndrome, right? They all think That, you know, they're the center of the world And this is their sitcom Or their show When in reality, we have to realize That we're actually a society And we're missing the importance of the public The broader public Of civic society Of organizations that need to actually, you know Work more together And balance things out Rather than actually focus on individual action
Speaker 2Yeah, I joke with my kids all the time Because, especially my son He's all the time saying He's the main character And I have to tell him repeatedly Son, you are not the main character Okay, I promise you You're not the main character And you're exactly right That there's so much of that That sort of mentality That's been cultivated Nurtured, you know Fertilized would be a good word for it To have grown out That is breaking down that societal network And creating these environments Where it is even more important Even harder to have that sense-making That you were talking about Because we need to know more about that network About those people About having those relationships And if we look at data About social interactions and relationships We can see, definitely, a correlation Doesn't mean it's causation But a correlation between The onset of social media And all the things that go with it And the decrease in social networks Legitimate social interactions And relationships Among, especially, Generation Z Right? So, it's a real thing And that's something that we need to be Paying attention to As leaders Because that only adds to This messy environment
Speaker 1It does And, you know It means that if we're all central characters Or if we're all main characters That's even more stakeholders you have to deal with, right? Because you're dealing with stakeholders of one Multiple times And it makes, actually, you know navigating that mess with others is even more challenging too.
Speaker 2Let's shift to the now what? can we do about this? What are the tools that our listeners can take away? Let's suppose I'm leading an organization and I realize, hey, I don't actually know what's happening here. What would you advise that I do next?
Speaker 1Yeah, well, part of what I think, you know, I would advise leaders to, you know, be vulnerable at times at the appropriate place, right? And say, you know what, I don't know what's going on, perhaps to some of their senior teams and how we make sense of this together too and gather the information to get a better picture, right? So I think sometimes, you know, recognizing that you don't have to have all the answers, you don't have to see everything is so important. So I encourage, you know, leaders to lead with, you know, curiosity by asking questions, but by also not trying to answer things that they don't have the best thought out, you know, response to as well. It's better not to have an answer than actually to claim something that isn't true. So I think encouraging them to really harness, I'd say, their curiosity, their ability. to actually understand what they're seeing and what they're not seeing as well. Who's missing from a conversation, perhaps, whose perspective is not there, to be able to gather that enough information to be able to understand a situation. So there's that. And as you say, Tom, you're never going to have 100% of the data, because it's impossible, you know, especially, you know, in the nature of where we are, because things are moving so quickly. But you have to have enough information that you feel confidence that it's a plausible, you know, situation that you can correct. And you have to have the ability to do that. And I think that's one of the things that I think leaders have to recognize is that, you know, course correction is not actually admitting failure. You have to actually recognize that at times, you know, you may be heading off in a direction, you may be heading up north, and you realize, you know, I got to go a little bit more east. So you have to do that. So I think getting leaders to understand that they actually have the ability to be able to shift and to change as well. It doesn't mean whipsaw change. It doesn't mean, you know, you're not going to be able to change. It doesn't mean you're not going to be able to change. It doesn't mean you're not going to changing on direction 100% or 90 degrees, but doing small shifts, very, very, you know, acceptable as a leader.
Speaker 2Thinking about this, you know, information, when do you have enough and that? Do you have a good framework, how you think about that to say, hey, when have we taken in enough information and done enough sense making, you know, so that it's time to act? Like, how do you frame that?
Speaker 1Yeah, so there's different exercises that I walk through teams, you know, with and trying to get that information, at least to get the initial sort of map in data. And that's where, you know, you go through an exercise and you determine, you know, what are the signals we're seeing? What, you know, what's the environment to be able to, you know, capture as well? You know, what matters most to this prioritizing these things as well? You know, who is the most, you know, and, you know, what are they saying as well? And what do we expect their response? So it's an ongoing process. And that's the interesting thing about sense making is it never stops, you know, but you need to be able to sometimes, you know, draw some lines around and capture, you know, the activity in order to act. So there's that balance, you know, between, you know, gathering information and also making the determination you have enough to be able to act. That's why I think teams are so important as well, because those teams can sometimes together bring you that information and to make that determination that we've got enough to be able to have a plausible sort of, sort of, sort of a next step in action.
Speaker 2In listening to you, two big things that I heard you say were ask a lot of questions. Ask questions. Don't just fill out answers, which folds into the next is see what other people think. See what other people, where they are on, on this action, this decision, this, this set of circumstances before moving forward. A little bit earlier in our conversation, I was thinking it's better to think and not speak than speak and not think, you know, and unfortunately, I feel like in our current environment, there's a lot of the latter, you know, a lot of people just talking without thinking and certainly not asking questions of other people and getting other people's perspectives. And, and I think we're all reaping the whirlwind as, as they might say. So. You're right. I think that's a
Speaker 1societal issue that we have to, you know, and it actually, you know, threatens actually, you know, you know, I'd say a healthy, you know, society and healthy communities too, because we actually think we're right. We, we, we don't want to hear anyone else's point of view sometimes. And, and that leads to, to, to, to fractured societies and challenges. So we need to do better, better job of asking questions and, and, and, and trying to understand where another person's standing, right? Because change is always, you know, depends on where you're standing. So, so we have to understand where, where that person is standing as well in order to understand them and have a better society. I've
Speaker 2got a closing question for you, Daniel. If a leader listening today remembers only one thing, one idea that, that you brought, you know, the next time they're facing a messy situation that's ambiguous, politically complicated, what would you want that one idea to be?
Speaker 1I'd say it's to balance, balance things and to balance personal. So, so, sort of, sort of reflections with the, what the organizational needs are and to balance, you know, you know the ability to rush to a solution and, and, and to pause and ask questions.
Speaker 2Excellent. Daniel, thanks for a great conversation. And I really appreciate you joining me on the Science of Leadership today. It was a pleasure. I really enjoyed this discussion.
Speaker 1I think we could have talked for hours.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Science of Leadership. We hope today's discussion gave you practical tools and a deeper understanding of how you can be a better leader starting today. Remember leadership is about helping those we lead do great things. It's a journey of continual growth and learning. When we embrace that journey with curiosity, courage, and humility, we can confront challenges, overcome barriers and foster environments where everyone can succeed. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow or subscribe, leave a comment and share the episode with others who are passionate about leadership. Until next week, keep leading with character, competence, caring, and communication. This is Tom Collins. Let's keep growing. © transcript Emily Beynon
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