Leading Globally Without Losing Yourself with Jen McLennan

Welcome to Scale Her Up, the show for female business owners and leaders who want to grow profitable sustainable businesses without burning out. I'm Dr Brenda Hector, a business growth specialist helping women develop themselves on their businesses so they can achieve their goals and enjoy the lifestyle they dream of. In each episode you'll hear inspiring stories, honest conversations and practical strategies to help you start, grow or scale your business. If you're new here, hit follow so you don't miss an episode and come and join our Scale Her Up Facebook community to keep the conversation going. And the conversation today is with Jen Maclennan, who is the group manager and director of Fifth Ring Limited. Jen, thank you so much for joining me. No, thank you very much for having me. Yeah, really great to have you on the on the show. So let's start for anybody who doesn't know, tell us what Fifth Ring is and what it is that you do. The Fifth Ring is a global B2B focus marketing communication agency. We have offices here in Aberdeen, where I'm based and in Houston, in the US and Singapore for Asia clients and we support clients all over the world with challenges from brands to change management, to sales, to predictive revenue, PR, crisis comms. So yeah, a full range. But yeah, it's a really exciting place to be. I've been here for nine and a half years and it's a never-adulday, that's for sure. So what kind of businesses are you working with? What kind of customers? Probably quite diverse, given the diversity. Yeah, certainly culturally, definitely. There's a huge diversity across the culture. I think what we focus on specific sectors for the offer that we have, specifically, we have energy, maritime, industrial, technology and semiconductors. We do work with clients outside of these specialties when the opportunities come up and if we think we can add value, but we've made a distinct decision to focus on where we believe we can add the most value to our clients. Both from our internal resource perspective, making sure that we are working on clients where we can make a lasting impact, not just in single projects, that we enjoy long relationships with a lot of our clients. So making sure that we are focusing on efforts where we believe that our clients value and where we are seeing that we can make a measurable impact to them as well. So that's a, I think, the sectors, split, probably varies across the different regions and certainly the culture is very different across the regions, but the sectors at a group level, that's the one that we've decided to focus on. So I'm just thinking in terms of Marx and in communications, you've mentioned culture a couple of times there. Is that a challenge getting that right in the different, yeah, talk to me about the challenge of culture? Yeah, I think it's one of the areas that will be fascinating me and I think one of the reasons probably why I'm still here, I think the international side of what we do is really fascinating for me and what is meaningful or sometimes what even doesn't pass by like Blank and I hear and how it's perceived in other countries. So you can't necessarily have it, it's not so easy to create a great global campaign because it needs to be nuanced to the requirements of the different places you're trying to reach your customers. And one, for example, even this week, and I think this year again, I love to learn. I saw one of our people fed back to us that the headshots that we take, that you know, they're on a really website, you ever see white headshots in China can be seen as like almost like morning. So it's making like, you know, if you don't know that, you know, a Western company wouldn't make those connections. So it's about understanding that that dynamic and that that requirement for specific regions and we were really been, we're really lucky that we have such a, they said we have our own international offices and we're part of a network of agencies as well called BBN which are B2B networks, B2B agencies all around the world where we can do culture checks. So we do that with a lot of our global campaigns and the things that we've found and have been always eye opening that I've found for how something that you nobody don't think about here and how it's perceived. And then even closer to home, like Norway, I think a lot of companies in the Northease of Scotland will engage with Norway with the alignment that we have, you know, how they market themselves and how they talk about themselves, they call it Yantelovans so they'll not say that they're better than anyone culturally. They want to talk about what they do and they don't, but whereas in America, you know, it's all about. Well, it's all about B&B. Yeah, big claims and big wins and trying to be trying to outdo each other. So having a Norwegian headquartered company that has that culture at the heart of it, launching or even not launching, it's been in America for a long time, but how can they apply that to a market where the competitors are making big claims? So that's powerful what we navigate as well. So it's really fascinating. It's the biggest challenge and the biggest interest I think that we have. And yes, so it's. And then there's no easy answer to it. It's really a really rich area to delve into. I've seen it myself as well, actually. Action coach, I'm a franchisee of Action Coach Nitson, a global company, American headquartered, and we had to rebrand recently. And then the resources were released to us in the UK. And actually, it just wouldn't have landed well so the UK office had to do a mini rebrand on as well just to make it fit for purpose in our environment here. I think that's a big challenge for a lot of businesses. And there's not a limitless. there's not a limitless pile of money for launching any new campaign. There's not a limitless understanding as well. So I think the way that we always try if the company structure allows it is have some core material that applies at group level, kind of like what we're talking about with Thithring, but allow it like how do we like lead it to the regional leaders to how does this nuance itself for your market? These are the cores, the core parts that we need to maintain, but how does this you know, do we need to dial off a specific message here or sort of reword it within the tone that we need to adhere to? So there absolutely needs to be a top down and a bottom-up balance to find for any successful campaign. So I want to talk about Thithring then again come back to that. So you've been around, did you say nine years? Yeah, nine and a half, yeah, been ten years in August. So I'm sure that's gone. And what about Thithring then? How old is Thithring? How long has it been going? Thithring's been around for 35 years this year, just past her 35th anniversary. It was started by Ian Orte. He started it with someone here in Aberdeen. I think originally he'll give me trouble for a miss quoting here. It was built, it was largely advertising based originally, but I think with the oil and gas market around Aberdeen, they made the really bold decision, I think, of not just thinking about opening an office in the UK or expanding here, but to make a decision to move internationally, which I think was for such a brief decision. Essentially, it was on the back of client demand, really, that it sparked that. So the first office that the team opened up was actually in Dubai. And that's closed before I started here largely, I guess, with the contraction again of the oil industry. It was largely energy clients that were based there. And when the crash happened, I joined Thithring in the middle of oil crash. Of course, that would be so. Yeah. Right, right. It's been years ago. Yeah, right time. But the plans were closed by then and brought team back to here. But we opened Houston in 2008 and Singapore in 2012. And yeah, I think the teams and the makeup of the teams have shifted hugely in that time. I was saying this literally, yesterday to somebody, the change I've seen in Thithring in 10 years nearly. I can't even imagine what people who've been here, because there are people who worked here or still work here who've been here for decades. What they've seen the evolution go through, you know, the internet. Internet wasn't a thing, desktop publishing. To be fair, when Thithring was set up, it was fully desktop based. It wasn't. So they were one of the first ones to go that way. But that was, you know, that feels really old when you think about it now or when I think about it now. But the shift that was acquired for clients to go through that change. And then now I think we see technology moving to, we were talking before this about AI and how we see that evolving and how you know, I said, the world changes so fast, I think that there's where we're used to it here. I think we're used to the change. But it's definitely something we need to support our clients as they navigate and adapt ourselves to how they need to adapt as well. Yeah, 35 years will have been massive changes. Nine years also, massive changes. How do you, how, let's just focus on your time? Did you join us? I'm on the right to know. No, no, I've been, I've had a bit of a, I was called my squiggly through life. So I was a journalist before, it feels like a million years ago now, because again, that industry has changed, I've all recognized, even since I've not been there. So originally I was a journalist when I left university and then I guess I was really just keen to do more with the broad sense of where was content going, video podcasts, how do we communicate, was really what I was interested in doing. So I made the shift to move into the more kind of PR with the ambition to learn more about the broader side. So I joined with this ring, having just been made redundant from another agency that I was only there for a very brief time before the close to office here, middle of the oil crash, with absolutely locked out, because there was no budget, no money, no planned role, but I met Ian and we got on and he offered me a role which was great. So I joined as the head of the PR team back then, moves kind of quite naturally into I guess the client management side. So more of the overseeing of not just PR projects, but web builds, rebrands, change management, the plethora. And then so I was leading the client services team and account managers and then moved into more operational role as regional director, which meant I ran this office for which looks after clients across Europe, think about 40 to 50% of our revenue here is currently not UK based. So we've got clients in Austria and Italy and Norway and France and so making sure that we've got a remit to cover there. So I was a regional director for most of my career here at Vithering I would say and then became managing director 18 months ago nearly. So yeah now I've got a group remit not just focusing on the Europe but what are what are offer and how we how we present ourselves and support clients across the world. So maybe quite a natural evolution I guess for and but it would be not necessarily a straight line evolution, responding to opportunities that the business had, challenges the business had, just sort of made me always interested in learning like I was saying so just keen to take opportunities when they're eyes. So what have you learned about yourself then? As in your journey through fifth ring and two group management director? Well lots. I think is the short answer. Key key points I guess it was interesting when I became when I got the role of the regional director remember phoning someone who is an amazing learning and development person that was in the business at the time within within the wider business and asking her what she thought I should be training up and geating up and I was very think I was very much thinking it would be you know HR policies and you know management techniques and things and I remember her saying the you need to know yourself better than you will ever they've ever known yourself before because there's not the the network so much around you that the higher up you go the more you're on your own and you need to be more self aware of where you have gaps where where you are adding value what your role is and I think I found that more true every month that passes and trying to be aware of myself and where I how I work with the teams and where we how my role in stewarding and collaborating and where I'm adding value the most and because I think that's shifted to put each of the different roles so where you feel comfortable you're adding value before maybe isn't necessarily where you need to add value now and I think each of those steps has been a big learning curve and I think to sit especially coming into this managing director role I think I didn't realise what I shift it was going to be from from where I was before because you know I was on the board already I'd seen the finances already like I knew that part but I think the different stakeholders that you have to manage at this level the different the responsibility you have at this level the understanding even work going back to that culture point we had you know of the the different regions at an operational level not just the you know the regional director has always met and understood each other but really understanding what is required within those businesses and adding your own your own views and your own thoughts on that has been I opening so I think yeah I think the biggest thing is that know yourself as best you can with it was a big a big learning from my side a brilliant answer actually and it's probably why I ask the question so often because I want other women you know the listeners to be thinking about where their gaps are so if you share what you've learned about yourself they'll go oh I'm like that as well and yeah and yeah I think women naturally have and that's a huge generalisation I say point I even go go forward but in general what I found is that we have a we think broader I think I think men are quite focused in a specific place I think men and women seem to be always thinking about all the different things trying to do it all at once and I think being aware that that's how I think but trying to focus in on specific areas where I think I add the most value a lot of planning a lot of tools to you know find structure my thoughts a little bit clearer has been really useful and again and I think would I have gaps but also gaps I can fill with people around me but also where I think I need to develop making sure that I sort of focus on those and trying to prioritise that as well I think there's so many things you think oh I can't do that but maybe you could do part of it if you did some learning and development or worked with other people to do that and I think that was a big certainly you know from a finance perspective like I said I was a journalist I don't have an MBA so trying to understand the levers of a business has been huge learning for me and yeah certainly when I feel more comfortable in it now but I definitely need to lean on the ones who this is their core expertise to make sure that we're making the right decisions for the business I've got the checks and balances behind me to make sure that ideas I have are practically applicable to make sure that that's a reality for us and where do we want to take a risk where do we want to where do we feel like where the data just doesn't support us we're very data enabled at fifth ring and I think that's one of the biggest shifts I've seen in the business over the last 10 years and you know we have a lot of data around our pipeline around our people our operations and later we're making money later we know how busy are we going to be I think that's the biggest challenge for agencies it's so responsive sometimes but we need to try and and again I've been from speaking to other agency owners I don't think this is universal from our side to be trying to maintain a core staff to manage core clients and if we see more coming we may end up making hiring decisions we don't hire when we went a project and let go when we don't have a project anymore we try and maintain a core stable team that where we can develop learn build expertise so making sure then that comes with its own challenges you have to be aware of how busy are these people going to be making sure that the pipeline supports the skill sets that you have core clients asking for what skill sets do we need to hire or develop within our team is that now AI rather than a person you know do this research that used to take us days is now done very differently so it's it's people doing their jobs differently and so yeah it's the data side has been hugely hugely beneficial but you have it's how you interpret it I think is such the critical part here there's the information there's information everywhere that interpretation of it and finding the insights that are useful is the art that comes from that and do you bring that to your customers as well you know like because you marketing advertising it's all about getting more you know getting more being more visible and therefore getting more customers so a lot of the businesses that I talk I work with or talk to small SMEs and they're not they don't have the data to back up the decisions in their in their marketing and their advertising yeah we are outcome obsessed I always say and so we we everything we do we have KPIs attached to it what are we trying to do not just issue a press release but what who are we trying to influence who are we trying to reach what are we trying to and what are we trying to impact and we use data to back up any of it I think there's a risk and almost now I think it'll be too data focused and I think there's there's like you said we need the data to validate but the the world is a very noisy place in marketing and communications I say we've all got phones we're getting talked to all the time where people trying to influence us and I think having a message that really cuts through is as if not more important than a data behind it we can I think the data is is really important but so is having the creative cut through especially now so I think yeah you're right we use data we have our own two tools that we use for the clients that maybe don't have it, will help them embed tools and technology if they need it within their businesses depending on where they are and their appetite. Yeah, we absolutely have to adapt ourselves. I think that's why we haven't some of our clients are saying, well, why are you not fully and the Microsoft suite and it's said, well, because not all of our clients are fully and the Microsoft suite, we have to be technology agnostic really to make sure that we can support them where they need support. They use the tools that they need to support where they are. But yes, as far as we can, there's no end to the ability with if the technology's there, we are aware some clients don't have it. So what we can offer is tools that we have in-house and a data that's available in the platforms that they choose to use. And then we can offer suggestions on how they can improve that as they go. And I suppose your outcome obsessed, so you can show that you're delivering the outcomes and that's what's gonna enable you to retain your clients. Absolutely, that's critical. I think the, even now marketing can be seen as a, it depends on you again, culturally, it depends where you are. But I think in general, marketing can be seen as a nice to have, and rather than a business critical component that may be legal or finance or something is maybe seen as. I think the more data you have that you are not just impacting what's been but what's coming for these businesses that you have, that's the real lever for future growth, not just what's happened in the past. And I think sometimes that's where the people who can really understand that and see value in it. So the connecting to C-suite and showing that value, whether it's through the marketing managers that we deal with or connecting directly in with the C-suite, if they see the more you can talk about the data and that the business impact you can make, the more impactful marketing can be. Or communications are, you know, I'm using the broad marketing and its broadest sense here. The more you tie it to real business outcomes, the more impactful it is. So that means having different conversations than I want to issue a press release or I want to create a brochure. It's about what are we trying to do and why. And then that can maybe mean something totally different, you know, there was one conversation many years ago I had with someone who'd started a company and wanted a press release. And the conversation that I had in my PR hat at that time essentially led me to believe that he didn't really know that he'd started it. And it was, you know, there was some demand, but he was certainly looking to increase demand really for the service that they could offer. But who actually wanted the service seemed to be too vague. And I could have easily taken the money and done a press release. But it wouldn't have impacted what they were looking to deliver. And I said, like, what do we really need to do is understand your customer and who is the people who are the people who are going to make the decision to buy this service. And then we can see if the press release is the best way to engage them with the right messaging then let's do it. But I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't, if I recommended that to you. I think we have to take a step back and look at the analogy we always use as, and this is again showing age, maybe the radio, you know, back in, if you turn up a static radio, you're not heating anything. You need to find that the channel and then turn it up. So you need the message to be there so you can heat it. If you're turning up static, no one's heating anything. It needs to land properly. So I think that's, I see that as our job, as giving the best advice for the problems that the business have, rather than the creators of websites or creators of press release. They're how we activate it. But it's the problem solving part, is where I think in agency we really add the best value. That's brilliant. I totally agree. Yeah, really good message to anyone, anyone listening. So I'm wondering, Jen, who's been your biggest supporter? Oh, I was thinking about this and I was listening to your other ones who have, and I think I'm very lucky. I've had, I've had a few. I think my husband is hugely supportive. I think I mentioned already I was made redundant before I got this role at Feth Ring. And I was very fortunate. My previous employer heard and it was very kind and fond. Me and said, we heard, would you like to come back? We can offer you a different position, a promoted position. It was back in the new space again. And it was very scary time being made redundant in the middle of oil crash in Aberdeen. There was an opportunity is lying around. I did think about, we had a mortgage and things that needed commitments that we had financially. But my husband was really supportive and said, you made a decision that you wanted to move into this space to learn more and to explore, you owe it to yourself to see what you can find. So don't jump just because you're from a money perspective, short term anyway. Feds stopping redundant maybe six months time in a different conversation. But he said, I think it's worth you making that decision. So I did. And here I am now, which I think is the time there are done and say is a terrible thing. But I think honestly, what's more, you won't go by you in Scottish terms. I think this was such a better place for me to end up than, yeah, I think it's been great. So I think he is first and foremost in my mind. I think I've got a great family that I've always, mum's always been out to work. I came from a farming background. I think he or from a farming background. And there's like, I heard a few people and I was like, I have a farming background too. There must be something in there. But my mum was always out at work. She was a pharmacist. So I think having good role models, who we were always, what can you be? There was no expectation of it. We could do whatever we wanted. So I think even from that age, having good supporters, my first editor, Cheryl, was amazing. She was very, going into a newsroom, it can be quite male dominated. So coming into a newsroom that had a very strong female leader to learn from was brilliant. And then even in a certain, again, coming here and learning from Ian, he's been always a huge supporter and pushing me forward for different opportunities and challenging me. And accepting when I challenge him, which I think has been huge for both our sides and there's a lot of respect there, even when we don't agree. We can have very, very straight and frank conversation. So I think I'm very lucky. I've got a strong support network. And people I can ask for help if I need it. - Fantastic. You mentioned your husband. I think we should just mention his name. Give him a ross. - Ross. - Ross. - Ross. - Thank you. So what would you, what would be your advice to another woman's thinking of taking a senior role or getting start and scale in their business as well? - Yeah. I don't know if I have the best advice yet. I think I still feel early in my career in this space. I think even though I've been here for 10 years, I think when the opportunity to be the group managing director role came up that was absolutely not on my bingo card, I have to say because I had just returned from my second period of mat leave and after my first period of mat leave, it took me a while to readjust, I think, to coming back during your whole frame of reference is different, your priorities are different. - It was totally different. - And it was COVID when I had my first baby. So the business that I came back to was different because it had evolved as part of COVID, which I would part of, but not near for the whole journey. So I think readjusting myself, readjusting to the business, it took me some time and again, a lot of emotional conversations with Ian figuring out what I was, what that was gonna look like. And again, super supportive, flexible working, compressed hours, that always be a core part of fifth ring, which I've really valued even before I think it became hybrid working after COVID became a thing. There was always that flexibility at fifth ring because we work internationally. We've always had everything's being cloud based so you can work wherever you are really, because by design, so that meant that we could work from home if there was something that was needed, you know, a sick child or a delivery or whatever we needed to do. We were always adaptable so that we could work, can you come work different hours to support as in line with business needs to extend. So that was always a real thing, but I think from, yeah, so when I came back second time around, I had very much spoken internally to myself. It's like, I know this is gonna be an adjustment again, you know, to go back and being gentle with myself and remembering that it took some time. And it was fairly quickly a few months after being back that opportunity presented itself. And I remember thinking, can I do this, you know, with my situation being what it is, but I ended up as a book to Ross and to contain to reflect. And I remember thinking, if I don't do it, I'm gonna kick myself in five years' time. If I wanna try and if I feel or I don't do as good a job as I hope it was, and maybe feels too hard a word, but if I don't do what I think I can do, then that's okay by doing a look, back in five years and not have tried, but equally, I want to try and set myself up for success. So I was very honest and open with what I could commit to, what I couldn't commit to. You know, I'm not someone who can work every hour of the day. I have young family. And I can't mean so more flexible, probably than other people, but it means a different thing to, you know, Ian being in this role for 20, 35, you're 34 years before. It's a different, it's a different beast. And I think just being up front and being up front, I think about what I needed in terms of my own development. And so I actually took on a course of, I spoke to someone, a coach, and she recommended a resilience bill sessions at the start. So I did some work with someone who works with people who are maybe at burnout or, but just like to leadership from a resilience perspective, again, talking back to the know yourself. And so she was really amazing at helping me recognize the trigger of the signs, I guess, that if I'm starting to overwhelm myself, I'm a kind of say yes person naturally. But it means you can be overwhelmed and drop balls and you don't want to let other people down, you've been at home or at work. So how to make sure of like the aware of the signs, put processes and structures in place around me to make sure as best possible, the reality sometimes is different, but I think as best possible, support myself and recognize early warning signs if I'm getting overwhelmed and what to do about it. And then moving into it even now, still active in getting business coaching to make sure that I'm learning from people who are with an external perspective as well, that applying to be challenges that I'm looking at through a fifth of the ring loans to someone who's saying well, have you tried this? What about this? So different perspectives. So I think active coaching and I'll be free to ask for help, I think is a big part of it as well. I sometimes think women feel less pressure to be able to do it by themselves. Maybe less so now, but I think for me being honest with yourself, being honest with those around you and getting help. I think don't be afraid as well. I think don't let the fear decide would be a big thing for me. The fear could have let me and I'm sure I would have been perfectly happy saying, I'm only going to be able to be frustrated with whoever got the seat if it wasn't for me. But I think I would have maybe the requires her life, but I think I want to look back and be proud, I think, of whatever we've done for as a business, as a person, as a mum, as a partner and as best possible. Not every day, I manage that, but I try on the pole, on the trends to manage that. I think the message I'm getting from you is to be realistic about the juggle. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely the juggle is real. The juggle is real. I'm sure that I've been very lucky that my mother-in-law moved here, neither of us my partner, I are from Aberdeen originally. So our family are not nearby. When we had her, we're pregnant with our seconder. My mother-in-law actually decided she was moving here and she's been a massive support for both of us because my husband works full-time as well. He's got a good job. So it's not a case of having someone at home, you can easily have a lie on, but he's got a very flexible place as well. So yeah, we're both very realistic about the juggle and we have conversations all the time about who's doing this, who's doing that. I don't know if you're doing any help, but I probably can't do that thing that I said I could do. I'll speak to people. But yeah, communication, being realistic at best you can. I'm a realist with an optimist lens probably. But I think, yeah, try the possible, you're absolutely right, be as realistic as you can and communicate so that people understand as well. So let me just take you back to the business coaching thing because that's a big thing for me and I believe that every business, you know, you should have an accountant and a lawyer and a business coach, I think it would be, you know, these are the support that are really important support in your business. So tell me about the value that you get from your coach. Yeah, huge value, I think. I try to think about how to, some of the key things I think to highlight, I think reframing challenges has been exceptionally helpful for me, getting overwhelmed even though I was talking about earlier about, you know, the resilience coaching. Sometimes the understanding and reframing of the challenge or even sometimes, we're making me realize, I'm making it a challenge, it doesn't need to be a fight this. This is a reality of a stakeholder engagement. Why am I seeing it as a battle? So it's been, she's been really, really helpful in reframing challenges, giving me really good tools, I guess, in terms of, you know, different ways of doing business planning, business mapping, mapping out the senior leadership and our strengths and weaknesses for understanding how we were going to work together better. Yeah, and I think, from a business course perspective, I was one of my friends asked me about this not long ago as well because she was interested in getting one and I would advocate for it every day, but I think don't expect a single business coach to give you everything you're ever looking for. I think know what your gap, again, it's like knowing yourself, at least have an understanding of where you think your gaps are and be open about that, but don't expect one person to be the solution to that. If you need to have a mentor for something, a webinar for something, and a coach for something, but just, there's so many options available. I think the personalisation that comes from a coach, they're getting to know each other and she understands me very well. And so even sometimes when I'm saying things, she said, "But Jen, I know you, you're probably actually going to be thinking this." And she said, "And I know you like to reflect." And I guess I would be like, "Do I like to reflect?" So she was saying, "But she was right. I wanted to reflect on what she'd said because it was a different way." So she said, "Come back to me." So I think personalisation that comes from a business coach is great, but I think going on again, realistic and communicating clearly about what you think, where you think you need your help, because then you'll find the right business coach for you. That chemistry is so important to make sure that are you looking for someone to support or are you looking for someone to challenge or are you looking for how do you like to work and making sure that's the right set has been really important. But yeah, she's great. I've actually got her a couple of people to different coaches now as well, but I think it's especially here. And I can't speak for larger businesses, but I think from a small business, there's around 50 of us across the whole group. We don't have the skills in house or the time in house to really give coaching to the people who are in up in commerce, investing and getting them a coach that's fit for the development needs that they need, and looking with their own budgets and as much as we can out all times really. But for the right people, that is, you know, pays dividends really in terms of what they can bring to that, to the business and how we get to go as a result. It sounds like you've got a real culture of learning and development and, you know, progressing your people. Yeah, we try, certainly. I think that's, I think the people who succeed at agency maybe, but definitely at Fethering are people who want to learn, who want to develop them and things. I think that's why you would work at an agency. I think I've never worked in house, but I think I can imagine, and for people who've come from in house to hear, the pace is entirely different because you said that the expectations of time have turned around, but we work on project that maybe businesses will work on once in a generation or once in their lifetime. We work on them every day, which gives us huge pressure, but huge learning as well. You know, we're working on rebrands and divestments in mergers and new product launches and emergencies and things all the time, but I think the learning is huge. I think it then lets you see where you've got interest, maybe that you didn't or skills that you didn't know. And we always like to lean into the people as much as the process. And I think that, you know, if we've got a real rising star who's got a talent in a specific area that we think can benefit us, we'll both support that as much as we can. You know, we've got one of our colleagues, Greg, who's, he's nominated for rising star at the Chamber of Business Awards this year. We were literally just filming this yesterday for the short or the film there. And he's similar. He joined as a kind of marketing intern. He's got a science background. He now leads part of our strategic campaign delivery for our clients around the world. And Greg is such a, you know, he's just, he's gone through in the four years. He's been here is so recognizable. And the value he adds across the business now, not just for the clients, but to collaborating, to idea about how we do things better, to how we report on ourselves. You know, he's all over the data. How do we make this more efficient? How do we help our clients work better? So the enabling him. has enabled all of us. So I think that, you know, always used to, when I first got here, people sometimes said, "We'll help you." What if you train them and they leave and you say, "Well, what if we don't train them and they stay?" That's the older and maximum isn't it? And I think it's definitely a cultural thing at Thethring, is the, that's the why of the people that we have here, is they come to learn, they come to grow, and they come to learn from skill sets, like to come from a news background. I had no idea, but brand strategy, all these, you know, value propositions, and when I got here, it was a huge learning curve, and I feel like I'm still on it today. So I think that's the people that do well here, that's what they're looking for as well. And that's where your customers benefit as well, like it, because, you know, like, so they're only going to do a rebrand once in their life or their business, but you're doing it every other week. Then you have the expertise that they don't. So, you know, that's why they wouldn't do it themselves, or why they think. The external perspective sometimes is really valuable to clients. The, you know, again, similar to what we're talking about with the business coach, they look at it through their lens and their experience, and having someone who's seen it across different companies doing similar things, who can apply the best practice or some learnings or, and different perspectives to you think you're unique in saying this thing. Actually, they're all saying this too. So how do we make this unique? How do we find yours? We have our own space, I'm going to be talking about, how do we find your space that you can really own? And what's your differentiator, your USP, whatever language you want to use here? And sometimes that's harder than the customers think, and it takes a bit of challenge and about prodding, and, you know, we can workshop or digitalize it, or whatever we want to do it. But yeah, it's definitely a value add, and I think it is probably an expectation of some, and it definitely a value add for the week that we have, and we expect ourselves to be always learning in front of these things. So, Jen, if you could go back and meet your 18-year-old cell, what advice would you give her? Oh, 18-year-old Jen was a bit. I think classrooms and me were not necessarily, I was always good at school, I think, but I think when I was given the, the rigor required study and the strict with myself, I've never been very good at. I'm much more, I learn better, in an active environment, learning on the job webinars, like in my own space, the exam situations, the things I never did very well at, and I absolutely tanked in my fifth year at school and got a large wake-up call to how I needed to readjust myself, and if I wanted to achieve the things that, you know, I wanted to achieve, to go to university and travel and do things that I wanted to do. So, I think, it's hard to say, I think that girl would never have thought to even think about where I am now. I think I was very much thinking, or I wanted independence, I wanted, I wanted to stand on me, I wanted to be fee, I wanted to be somewhere that I could make a change, I've always liked to learn. So, I think, what would I tell her? I think I get a gift, keep saying yes, but Pippa ain't knuckle down. That little bit earlier on. You know, I took a bit of a, wasn't the most straightforward, I ended up doing like six years at university because I changed degrees and, anyway, I think, if I just, if I'd maybe focused a little bit earlier, I would maybe, and I get what Pippa says, but I know yourself, the earlier you can know more about yourself, the better, but it's part of the journey. You know, would I, would I have done it differently? I don't know, but I think, certainly from a learning perspective, I think, you know, if I'd learned how to study better earlier, maybe I would be in a different space now, but I think, yeah, know yourself, it's not necessarily where I would have a strength, but I think, you said, try and be kind to my past self. I learned a lot, even if it wasn't books about myself. And I got here and I think it gave me the drive to push forward, even though it wasn't, I wasn't going the most traditional route, maybe that's why it's, maybe that's what's bolded me with more drive to push forward because I didn't, I don't know. Well, as an outsider here in that, that you've just described, you described that 18-year-old who wouldn't have imagined where you are now, but she was independent and she wanted, you know, she had things that she wanted and actually, that's her that's driven here. Well, it's going to one of my very early memory and this is not the big way I went to journalism, but I've, that's an early memory of Louis Lane and her, like, I think it was, I hope she called it, when it was the series and she was, you know, she was tough, she was like straight talking, she was getting to the point, she had her own apartment, you know, I always just thought like, I'm going to be Louis Lane, that's why I want to be, some of it that's that led me down the journalism route, but I just think that that, that was what really appealed to me. It was the independence and the drive and being that kind of woman, that's why I wanted to be. So, yeah, yeah, different, different guys, but. So, Jen, I've run out of time. Is there, is there anything that I should have asked you that I haven't asked? Anything that you'd like to add to the conversation? Well, I thought, you know, we would try to summarize here's my, my marketing speak, summarize key points. And I don't know if I'm not letting you know what add, I think, I think that not everyone's roots going to be traditional, I think, know yourself to know what works best for you. And if there's something you want, it doesn't necessarily only need to be self-driven, you know, find the right, the right people to go on it with. I think the team that I have here are amazing, that you know, fifth ring isn't, isn't Jen, it's everyone and it's the results that we deliver around the world. And I think, you know, it takes a lot of hard work. It takes, I said, the, the collaboration and adaptability and understanding of each other. But I think, yeah, go, if you want to go far, go together. So, I think, yeah, get from my side to having a great team is, is, is invaluable. I love that. If you want to go far, go together. Yeah, I think the reason if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. And I think that's the, unfortunately, we always want to go far and fast, but I'm trying to be as best as I can. And that is it. So, I'm brilliant, perfect message to end on. Thank you very much for coming on as a guest. I've really enjoyed this conversation, Jen. Yeah, you too, Vida. Thank you so much. And thank you to you for listening to ScaleHerup. If you enjoyed this episode, follow the show and leave a review. It helps more female business owners find us. Come and join our ScaleHerup Facebook community to get support, accountability and connection with other women who get it. And remember, only one in three UK entrepreneurs are female, and men are still five times more likely to scale their business beyond a million pounds in turnover. than women. When we start and scale our businesses to the same extent as men, we'll add 250 billion to the UK economy and create millions of jobs. So, ladies, you can do it, and your business can make a massive difference.