Leadership's Human Side

Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Thubbrunn. This is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you. Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, welcome everyone, welcome back to another edition of Leadership Detectives looking for the clues to great leadership. Hey Neil, hey Dean, good to see you buddy. I'm fantastic, thank you and I'm very excited to be joined today by a special guest and I was going to say friend, a work friend of mine, I've got to know really well over the last few years, Ben Palmer OBE, who is president of Inmarsat Maritime and a member of the Viasat executive leadership team. Ben, welcome, thank you for joining us. It's great to be here guys, thanks for a cheery welcome on a sunny Monday afternoon. Absolutely, yeah. So I'm going to launch straight in because I'm conscious that we want to try and get as much out of this time as we can and I was looking at your LinkedIn profile earlier today, Ben, and underneath your name where most people put their job title, you've got engaging people to drive business performance in technology-rich environments. And I wondered what does that say about you and your leadership style that that's what you've put as your title? That's a fair question. Well, I suppose Neil, for me, I've worked in, I'm not an engineer, it's the first thing to say, and I've worked in tech-heavy, engineering-heavy environments, most of my career in government and then in industry. And I think, you know, in business and in technology businesses, in particular engineering-heavy businesses, there's rightly a focus on facts, there's rightly a focus on data, there's rightly a focus on the things we kind of measure business performance by numbers and things like that. But ultimately, of course, as in most businesses, it comes down to the people, the talent that we have arraigned in our teams. And the key to driving progress is about harnessing and motivating and engaging those people to drive progress. I think there's also probably a clue in what that strap line says about the sort of career I've had. And as I've just implied, I've moved around quite a lot. I've built really a portfolio of experiences rather than a career in the traditional climbing the ladder sense. And I suppose the guiding threads through that have been around, as I said earlier, often being the only non-engineer in an engineering-heavy or certainly expert heavy room. Often working in businesses, organizations where, you know, they've been the leaders in their field. The lawyers will hate me for saying dominant, but they've been real, had a lot to be proud about. But perhaps are encountering challenges, things that are going to derail them. And I think the third thread has been around. Therefore, oftentimes, the need to engage people in pretty profound change and transformation of what they do and how they do it. And, you know, all the great technology and the great smarts and the best thinking in the world is going to take us nowhere if we can't really get people or take them on the journey and recognize that and harness that talent and enthusiasm to move forward. And so, I suppose that's probably to the extent that there was any design thinking around that sentence. Neil, that's probably a reasonable summary of why I think that like that. Yeah, that was a great summary. And within that, that blended portfolio, that colorful career, what are some of the key attributes of great leadership that you've seen and you have seen work for you? I think, you know, it's Simon Sinek that used to talk about or talks about, you know, it's not what you do, it's why you do it. And I think in any environment that I've worked in, it's been really important to be clear about mission and purpose. Why are we here? As I said earlier, I'm not an engineer by trading. I mean, to the extent I was trained in everything, it was in economics and political theory and philosophy. But, you know, and so, I was reading Aristotle at 19 when others were, you know, studying quadratic equations and things like that. But, you know, one of the things I've always thought was important is not only to ask ourselves what we're going to do, but why are we going to do it and to ask ourselves, therefore, what we want to be as well as what we want to do as an organization. I think that sense of purpose, that sense of mission and that sense of what we can become is quite important. I think that also is particularly relevant in the sorts of environments that I've worked in, where, you know, whether it's been a crisis to manage, a business to turn around, a program to recover, you know, a big growth initiative to drive, having a view of where we're really at today and where we'd like to get to, I think, has been important. I don't just mean because it's important to have the vision thing and to be able to point to the stars. But because I think that really helps to work backwards, if you like, to work right to left and be able to say, well, what would it take, actually, to get there? And then what would it take to get to the point, the intermediate step that we've identified, and what would it take to get there? And then to link that to where we are today. And it enables you to get very practical and very focused and to align people around a set of quite tangible and therefore reachable and achievable goals. And I think that helps to boil it down for people. But what do we want to be? What will it take to get there? What are the key levers that we have at our disposal? Recognizing that life's never a bank canvas. There's always freedoms, choices, and constraints. But getting clear around those sorts of things and then boiling that down and helping people to understand and simplify and get clarity around what they're trying to achieve, I think has always been a hallmark of good leadership in any of the environments that I've grown up in and seen over the last, I guess, 30, 35 years. I think that's great. I think it hits the attributes that you asked about in terms of looking at the shape of a leader. You've just mentioned it yourself, Ben. If you look at your career over 30 years, and anyone that wants to go look at your profile will see you've done some great things, but they haven't all been the same. So what are the differences you've seen in the style of leadership you've had to deploy, depending on what each of those roles that you've been in? I think you're right. Every situation is different. I think there are some, and I've built a kind of portfolio of experience in crisis management in government, big change programs, driving growth for companies into new markets, operating complex multi-dimensional P&Ls in different stages, with different components, with different stages in the development cycle, trying to get businesses profitable again, trying to get them to grow again. They're all different. And of course, the trap that I think is really important to avoid is to sort of bring that cookie cutter. This looks an awful lot like what I did here and deploy, oh, this is what, and you see a bit of that. I have worked with people who thought every problem was a nail than they were the hammer, and that didn't always go so well. I do think taking time either way, a little bit of time, and as much time as the situation requires to sort of diagnose and understand what's going on. You go into an environment, you've got to listen, you've got to hear what's going on. But recognize that there are some environments where the clock is ticking. And ultimately, it's going to be a question of formulating hypotheses about what's really going on and testing them. But ultimately, you're going to have to make choices in the absence of perfect information and judgments going to have to come in. And in some companies, in some environments where data, where certainty, and there are a lot of engineering and technical companies, where certainty is really important to people from a personal and professional perspective, that sometimes is at the time. So I think having the courage to develop tests and then make choices on the back of some hypotheses in a timeframe which is consistent with the speed of relevance is really, really important. I think, too, there are some environments where JFDI applies. A directive style, if the house is on fire, then standing around and asking everybody for their opinions on which exit to use is probably not the optimal leadership style. There are people, they need leadership, they need direction, they need to be. But I think also recognizing that that's contextual. And once you're out of the building, then there probably is the opportunity to ask people, well, you know, which way should we run? Or how will we think about building what house we want to build next? And so playing the direct, playing and being thoughtful along the kind of direction consultation curve, I think is really important. And that's also important from a kind of engagement and taking people with you perspective. People want, by and large, to feel empowered. You might come back to how much they like feeling accountable later, because there's a rights and responsibilities piece to that. But I do think being capable of flexing when to direct and when actually to stand to be to be pulling, huddling, huddling together and saying, right, we only solve this together. And you guys know it better than me and understand it better than me. So, you know, let's give ourselves license to to figure this out together. I think that's a skill too. Thank you, Ben. For our audience, guys, just just take on board what Ben just said, right, different situations, different leadership style, doesn't mean you can't vary. And it's not one size fits all. Just one of the things you said there, Ben, I remember our CEO, Neil, that we used to work with, you just referred to it. I use this phrase all the time with the team, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Right? Just don't, you know, sometimes you just have to go with what you've got. And there's no more you can do with that. So, excellent, Ben. Thank you very much. So, I've got a curious question. This comes up quite a lot when I'm coaching leaders that are a layer below you or a layer below that. And you talked about mission purpose, the what, the why. Is that something that only the presidents of the heads of should be thinking about when it comes to leadership? Or should every leader, no matter what level, be focusing on their mission, their purpose, their what, their why, with their team? Well, I think I think they should, and I hope they are in the teams that I've run. I've always wanted to see how people take and break down, whether it's goals, priorities, objective, you know, that hierarchy of, you know, the things that need to get focused on and how they break those down for themselves, their component pieces, and how they make sense of that for the people that work for them. I mean, I am in favor of, and I've always been in favor of being able to draw a golden thread between the document that you see presents to the street or the market or to the all hands and being able to be really clear for people right down the August or what they're, you know, almost to ask the question, if you're not, if you can't see how your job is contributing to the that set of goals and objectives, then we should all be asking ourselves the question of why not? And what can we do to clarify that for people, right? I think, you know, so oftentimes, particularly when you're in an urgent, volatile and certain complex, ambiguous environment where change is required, so often the guys at the bottom of the organization, the guys on the front line, if you like, are very clear about what's not working or what needs to be done. And, and sometimes there's a real need for that translation mechanism and the clarity from the top to be to be really absorbed and digested in the middle. And I think sometimes you find that, you know, helping the folks a layer or two down to ingest and then be able to articulate with clarity for their people what we're trying to achieve and the centrality of the mission is, is oftentimes the challenge. And so I do hope and I have, I have spent a lot of time coaching and helping teams that I work with to try to distill down and provide that clarity right through the organization that's linkable up to these high level goals and objectives. Because for me, that's how you drive velocity into an organization. It's how you drive, you know, and oftentimes, you know, it isn't necessarily, Albert just made a really important point about the enemy of perfect being the enemy of the good. And I violently subscribed to that, you know, figuring, figuring out taking too long to figure out the perfect answer is, is a real trap. And I see it, I have seen it quite a lot. Oftentimes, I've come into leadership teams where people have been almost paralyzed by that. And they're, and, and, and, and the solution quite often is to say, what's the no regrets moves that if we, if we moved, just move, you know, if you're under fire, some of your more, you know, articulate listeners will will look me up and they'll see that I worked in the national security environment for a while. And sometimes just moving is is when you're under fire, so then hunkering down and it may not be the right answer and just move here and getting to a slightly better place and then drawing breath and figuring out what the next step is that incremental approach is, is so important. And, you know, being able to drive that velocity into the org, we get folks aligned to move and to move at a speed that's consistent with with with market relevance, I think is is oftentimes an important trick. Can we just drill down a little bit in what you just said there around getting people to move? And because the concept, I understand the concept of what you just said, but what, what, how would you advise someone, a leader to make that happen, especially in that crisis environment. So from your experience of what you've seen, when you were in that world, what are some of the leadership things you need to do some that could be that our listeners could take away? I think I I've spent a few cycles now coming into teams, which have been for whatever reason, suffering from a downturn in performance, they've been, they've, if you like, been great. They work, the energy I've sometimes used, they work up every morning telling themselves they're Muhammad Ali, they're the king of the world. And by lunchtime, they're sort of scratching their head a bit. And by tea time, they're feeling pretty depressed about where they where they really stand. And, and so I've come into organizations where there's been a, you know, a proliferation of quote, strategic initiatives designed to solve that everybody's got a good idea. And frankly, they are all good ideas because they've come from people that are experts and really understand the environment. But if you've got 26 top priorities, it follows that none of them are going to be top priority. If you if you aren't focused on the three or four crux of the matter things that will make a difference. So I think, you know, one of the things I've always tried to do in those situations is bring some disciplines and rigor and discipline around, around that prioritization process. The other thing I think oftentimes is that people have a habit of saying to themselves, it'll be all right. The levers we've pulled already will come good. We just need to wait a bit. And, you know, sometimes that that might be true. But oftentimes, I think people underestimate the challenge they've got and over an overestimate the extent to which doing the same things we've always done slightly better will actually make a difference. And so, you know, one of the things I've got quite skill that is coming in and challenging people in a constructive, hopefully inclusive way around. Are you sure you got this tape lads? Because if we haven't we better we better make some different choices sooner rather than later. And I guess the third piece of that is is is really helping and shining a torch on. You're just just where we're at. I have a picture that I've often had my finance guy draw on and then you know, my current team and actually the last team I will remember this with fondness. I've had a graph prepared of the last five years, annual five year plans, which all go upwards on the from the left hand side to the right hand side of the graph, overlaid with the line of actuals of what actually was delivered, which is a solid backline that goes down from the left hand side to the right hand side. And oftentimes I've invited people to think about that's the story that the investors or the board or the other people in the company or or even our customers are seeing about us. Yeah, what you take from that and what you take from that is you've over delivered and promised and we probably want good salesman Neil and Albert, you know, you probably want to be in a slightly different place. So helping people to get to clarity about where we're really at and how we're perceived and and then get real about that has been something that I've I've oftentimes had to spend effort or an energy around at the beginning. And then it because because all of the you know, all people the people in the teams are generally good guys and girls, they they're not they're not bad people, but they've got to be helped to confront the challenge we face. And they've got to then be invited into the safe space of so how are we going to work together to fix it. And I think that safe space concept is important because oftentimes people feel that the notion of accountability turns into one of blame. And it becomes about who's who's who's at fault as opposed to we are where we are. Everybody makes mistakes. The world, you know, the world chain, we can all come up with reasons why but actually let's let's focus on now where where do we move to what do we do how do we get the thing how do we get the boat moving faster through the water. And that's that's been important in some of the leadership journeys that I've been on over the last 10 15 years. During the last 10 15 minutes, Ben, I get a flavor. It might just be the way you present it, but I get a flavor of what it's like to work with Ben Palmer. Do you deliberately set out to create a culture or does the culture develop? Yeah, I think I I do want to build a high performance culture. I mean that, by the way, for the listeners and other podcasts in a small H, small P, small C kind of way. But I think, you know, I've always wanted to you know, I know you guys have a lot I could see Neil's medals hanging in the background. I have some experience of of playing sport at a reasonable level and coaching as well. And I think trying to build that sense of, you know, I talk about, you know, four things really, you know, focus, can we get focused as a team? Can we can we can we build a phalanx? I've used the analogy of the rugby scrum versus the sort of the ruck, the mall, where everyone's pulling in different directions. And if you look at a scrum, it's really driving the energy's been pushed. Can we get focused on on the key priorities? Can we align on that? And can we build the alignment horizontally across the organization? So not just a basically down in our silos, but can we build that horizontal sense of alignment, including with the folks that maybe we rely upon in different parts of the company or our supply chain or, you know, other things we need to build that sense of not only what we're trying to achieve, but how do we work together effectively and be aligned on that? You know, I mentioned empowerment and accountability earlier. I want to work with people that want to step up and take responsibility, want to be empowered, want to harness the talents, the skills, the enthusiasm, the intellect of the energies of their teams. The flip side of that is I've always tried to create an environment where we help people accountable for that. And I don't again, I don't just mean in the sense of, huh, we hit the target well done accountable, or we didn't hit the target, who's the blame accountable, accountable in the sense of accountable to ourselves, accountable to our teams, accountable to our customers, and accountable in the sense of learning from experience, we hold ourselves accountable. And yeah, I have, you know, I want to create teams which people want to join because of those attributes. Yeah, it's important, you know, the occasion you need to have a laugh, it's a bit of fun. Yeah. But my sense is if you can combine those four attributes with a set of clear priorities and foky around what you're trying to achieve, more times than not, it is fun. Yeah, as you bind people into doing something they get, they get value from. So yeah, no, obviously, you get you inherit what you inherit, and you have to think about what's the culture today, how close are we to that, and what what steps and, you know, rocking up and saying, we're going to have a new culture, you know, you have to iterate towards it. And as a leader, you have to be patient. And you have to recognize that not everything will be how you want it on day one, it might take, you might have the right folk, you might have the right structure, you might have the right priorities. And, you know, there isn't a magic wand or a sort of immediate solution that enables that to change, you have to work at it, could day in day out to nudge people, pull people, encourage people to get to where you want them to get to. And occasionally, you have to bring, you have to refresh the team and, you know, bring in some talent and some complimentary folk that are going to get there help you to get there quicker. Maybe even a good coach. If you know any good coaches, I know any good coaches, I'll let you know. It's interesting, I did a, I did a chat GPT on Ben quotes about Ben. And one of the things it links to what you just talked about was it said, Ben has a track record of focus on recruiting and empowering talented individuals to drive organizational success, which sounds like you're building that organization that you've just described in that culture. And I guess, what are some of the clues there in leadership for building that high performing organization? I suppose we haven't, there's a, there's an important thing here about we haven't, I mean, I've flattered by chat GP's description, I might change that to be my strap line, actually. Thank you. But I think, I mean, I've talked to me talks a little bit about, you know, the leader into the team and the attributes of the team and culture and things like that really talks about, you know, the leader as the leader. And I think, you know, authenticity, you know, approachability, authenticity, building that sense of trust with the team that you aren't here to screw it up in a paper ball and throw it in the bin that actually this is something we're going to fix together. That oftentimes I, you know, I've, I've delighted in being not only the non engineer in the room, but the non expert in the room, which means I get to ask the really dumb questions. And most of the time, they turn out to be really dumb. You know, the more the more dumb questions I ask, the more interesting and less dumb questions I get to think about, and then, and then start posing. And I think that builds credibility. You know, people, people like to be listened to, they like to share. But they also, they like it when you come back with a better question, because it shows that you've, you've, you've learned something, hopefully. I think people want to be led by somebody too, that can make an impact. And I think one of the thing that I've always thought about, what makes me tick? Why do I want to be doing what I do? I want to make an impact. I want to come into a situation that's where purpose, the purpose is, is important. It matters. Making, making a difference matters and making an impact, which will make things hopefully better together with people is, is important. And it follows therefore that people respond well, if you can make those quick early steps, and you can start to move things. I think that's why moving is important. If you need, you develop your own self confidence, but you also develop the confidence of the team and you build credibility that, you know, actually will stand you in good stead as you start to, start to know more and start to think about what, what you need to do to change and, and drive progress. And I think that helps to build trust and credibility with the team. I think, I think there's also a thing around authenticity, authenticity as a human being. And what I mean by that is we often talk about the importance of humility in leaders. It isn't about the leader. The leader isn't always right. And, and, you know, demonstrating that's important. But the other word that begins with an H and a U and an M, which I also think is relevant here, is, is it's important not only to have humility, but to demonstrate humanity. And, and I think that's an important characteristic for leaders, too. And what I mean by that really is we're all people. We all have the pressures, the prejudices, the preferences are that we show as individuals. And I think, for me, being authentic means, you know, showing some of that to the team and demonstrating not only the sort of the humility of fallibility, but the humanity of a fallibility, too. And also that, that, that, you know, being relatable. And I think that's been an important piece. There are, there have been people I've worked for, and you know nothing about their private lives, their personal lives, you know, nothing about they carry a veneer of a shell, an armor, if you like, into battle with them, and, you know, I've always found that sometimes admitting to the old flesh, the odd flesh wound was, was a helpful, you know, was a helpful and, and human thing to recognize. We all carry, they're all, they're always things which are going on in people's hinterland that impact their performance, impact their focus, impact their, how they're feeling. And I think the leaders who demonstrate that they, too, have those sorts of things to deal with. Over time, build rapport, understanding, and, and, and also a word that's often forgotten in business is, is loyalty. You know, and you want people in a team who are prepared to, to, to, to, to run that extra mile, who are prepared to go that, that the extra distance, who are prepared to, to really, to really step up and be counted. And I think building a relationship, building the sense of, that you, you and them are in it together. And how better to do that than on the basis of your shared humanity, as well as, as well as all those other leadership characteristics we've talked about. And I'm curious about that, because it, it's interesting. I was coaching us a lady executive a while ago. And what the coaching session was about this topic was how vulnerable and human can I be without people seeing me as weak. And I think what, what, what you've described is you've built a level of credibility before demonstrating that humanity, or maybe that's what I've heard. But I, so I wonder, how would you respond to, to that? No, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure. I mean, I would hate it. I'd hate you to infer that there's an element of performance art about this. And I, and I think, because I don't think that's authentic. And I, and so, you know, there have been situations when I've been very clear about, right from the get go about some of the things that are going on in my life, you know, family health issues or whatever, children who were on day one of joining a team. Well, a, because I thought it was relevant and b, I needed to provide some excuses for why I wasn't going to be absolutely focused on day one is on solving the problem. But, but I found that actually to be quite a good icebreaker as well, because you get, you get, you build the rapport and you're from the, from the get go. Look, nobody wants a leader, Neil, who wanders around, you know, with a wet tissue, crying their eyes about saying, where is me? Yeah, they want somebody they can look up to, they can trust, they can believe in that is they think is going to help them to navigate out of where they're at and take the business forward or take the organization forward or help, help address the problems they've got. So, so I'm not, you know, but I do, I personally think, you know, showing humanity. And that does imply vulnerability. And I think it's a big mistake. And I, you know, and I think it's, I think it's, you know, I guess for us to, I think it's an unattractive trait in people, if they're, if they can't, if they want to sort of hide behind everything behind the wall, we all have private lives, no things we don't want to talk about. But I, as a leadership tool, and actually, as a way of managing yourself, and not feeling always that you have to be the lead spear carrier with the biggest shield, and the sternest look, I think that it for me, it's always been, you know, an important feature of my leadership style. Yeah, okay. I think I think as a massive development in leadership over the years, right, where this whole belief about you have to be the loudest voice in the room, you have to be the one that speaks first, etc. It doesn't always go to plan, does it, Ben? So I guess you've had some challenges at points in your career. Can you think of one of the toughest leadership decisions you've had to make? Oh, I've had, I mean, I, yes, many, many challenges. I think, I think you're being polite, Albert. I mean, I, I think one of the ways in which I describe my portfolio of experiences, some of those experience, they've all been interesting, and rich experiences, some of them have been, you know, experiences for which people metaphorically, or in one case gave me a medal. Or that they, in other cases, you know, they've been failures. I mean, there's no, no, maybe I, and I use that word, because some people don't like even to use the word failure in their careers, and they don't. And I think, you know, it's, I'm not quite in the space of, you're not trying at skiing unless you fall over lots. I mean, you know, what a try and avoid, you know, falling over every, every job you do. But I do think there's something about, I've, I've, I've, and it comes back to impact. I've, I've tended to gravitate in my career towards running towards difficult problems rather than away from them. I've, I've made a habit of working in government, being thrown hot potatoes that, you know, some folks thought were too difficult or didn't want to get involved with fast moving dynamic, you know, very high profile situations that required, you know, there aren't many situations in life where the, where the phrase it's, it's a matter of life and death applies, but and we use it too much in business. And I, and that's one of the things that keeps me grounded, actually, there are very few things I do now, which are a matter of life and death. But they have been at points in my career, things which have, which have met that sort of criteria. And I've, and there are lots of things where as you go through your career, if you run, if you make a habit of running towards difficult problems, trying to put teams together to address them, there will be times when, you know, you don't, you don't hit the target, you miss the target, you, you don't have the impact you hoped. And, and there are two things I'd say about that. Albert, one is, but isn't that a brilliant source of learning to, and aren't there things you can take away from that and think about, you know, whether it's view for the prison of your own personal approach or behavior, what you could have done differently, or the way the problem was framed, or how you engage stakeholders and, you know, all of those good things. But it, but it's also, you know, it's an opportunity to reset and recalibrate and say, okay, what should I do next? And I think that's an, you know, that's, that's occasionally provided me with the opportunity actually to step back a bit and think about, well, you know, what skills would I need to, to gain to be better at that next time? Or if I have the time again, be a bit reflective about, about that from a personal perspective, as well as from a kind of professional development perspective. So yeah, there are, I think that the flip side also follows that even when you've been successful in a role or a job, recognizing when the return on your investment of effort is when you're through the S curve, recognizing when actually you're not having the impact you want to make, not because you're failing, but because you've kind of, you've achieved, you've got the thing back where it needs to be, and it's flowing in the right direction. And it, or, you know, then there's, there's a sort of people hang on, because that's the job they're doing. Well, in my experience, sometimes it's helpful to say to yourself, look, I've, I've, I've had the impact I wanted, and it's, you know, somebody bet somebody else is better suited for the next phase, or as important, my own personal motivation or sense of sense of self is going to be better served by actually stepping out to something I've been successful in and looking for the next thing. So, so, so I think that preparedness to fail. I do meet people who are desperately concerned not to fail. Yeah. And I think that's really limited. Yeah. Yeah, I want people who want to work who might, we might fail. But, but, but bloody hell, if we make an impact, or if we make a difference, or if we, you know, if we, if we get this right, we won't. And, and there's a sort of risk reward. I don't mean that in a, in a kind of financial, I mean, bonus kind of, I mean that in a kind of experiential and impact reward or risk. Because that's enabling people to fail seems to be a great way of allowing an organization to go. You know, Reed Hoffman from LinkedIn used to measure all his leaders on failing 20% of the time. And if they, at their annual review, if they hadn't failed 20%, they got a poor rating in their so how do you, how do you create that environment? Or how would you advise people to create that environment where it's okay to fail? I think it varies by person, Neil. And I think you have to be in tune a bit with the person that you're talking to. I have had people who've embraced this, this philosophy, rather over aggressively. You know, and, and I think that's a separate problem and, you know, gets dealt with in a different way. But being, being less flippant, I think there are people for whom they've been conditioned, whatever reason through there, probably goes back to childhood, I'm no Freudian psychologist, but, you know, people get hung up on the notion of failure. I've had people that, you know, I simple things like I'd like a two by two every month, which tells me yours, you know, strengths, successes, failures, opportunities and threats, you know, when it's soft charts, watch out. And the guy had one guy, it crossed out failures every time and put sort of disappointments or, you know, some euphemism for, yeah, you know, and, and I had to sit and, and, and you get into it and it became a bit of a joke. And I think humor, I think, you know, humor can help. Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not saying we laugh at everything we fail at, that's not, that's not what I mean at all. Sometimes he sees his early theorist, but you've got to find a people's, a space where people can engage with, not with the failure itself, but with the learning opportunity or the what would we do differently? Or what do we need to do now? But that's happened to recover or improve the situation. And, and I think if you can get beyond you failed to, okay, what do we do now? Or what did we learn? Or how would we approach this differently? That's part of the trick. And I think sometimes humor can be an effective immediate, yeah. And I think, I think tonal, I'm not, you know, I can be very punchy and very, very focused, I'll just call it with, you know, in a business review with people and, you know, I don't want to, I don't, I'm not a great shouty and sweary and tell them all that. But, but I think it's important to hold people to account and be disciplined and apply rigor in those situations. But, but you've got to invite people into the conversation about, well, what next? Where do we go from here? And if that requires them to acknowledge that where we are is not where we'd like to be, which implies that something didn't turn out how we expected, which implied that something else didn't happen, which ultimately gets us to we failed or there was a failure, if we don't want to, then I think that's, that's helpful. And, and I'm a great fan of the why's, this, you know, why did that happen? Okay. Because this, well, why that? And why do we think successive wise, I think you're really helpful in those contexts to help to dig down to ground through what really went on? I think there's a bit of an unhidden, unseen element as well that you probably can't see would be my view because you do it all the time. And, and, and because I think that there's a way of creating that environment, where it's okay to fail, if you're confident in your position, if you've got the courage to stand up to your boss, if you're prepared to be that umbrella. And I think that's, that's a really important part that, you know, you didn't say it, but just by listening to you, you can tell you do that. Yeah, it's okay. You're so confident in you that it's okay if someone fails because you make the space for it. Yeah, you use the umbrella word and I, and I have used that analogy with the team. Oftentimes, your job as a leader is to provide the shelter for the team to operate, you know, in a dry, hopefully dry, and, and if not warm, at least not damp, and there, you know, there's a roof over their heads metaphorically, there's a shelter, and providing them with the space and the time and the lack of interference to get on and do what needs to be done. And, you know, I, I, in the organization, in lots of organizations, the job of the leader actually is to hold that umbrella up. And to recognize that there will be stormy weather, you know, rain will come, the wind will blow, and it'll buff it, the umbrella holder. And just occasionally, the, I mean, I sometimes the, the rain is brown and their umbrella goes brown because it's nasty stuff coming out of the sky that, you know, you have to hold, hold up to prevent people from getting dirty as well as wet. And, and that's, you know, that's part of having the resilience, I don't have confidence is the right word, but I agree resilience, the determination, the resolution, perhaps, I mean, the resolution and the resilience to say, you know, I'm going to hold this umbrella, and it's going to help my team to do the work to get through the storm. And, you know, if you've got the, if you can demonstrate that to the team, I think you do buy loyalty and you buy the recognition that we're in this together. And, and by fronting mistakes and being able to say, okay, I'm going to take this because we, we decided to do this, it hasn't gone how we wanted. And I'm going to, you know, we decided we, we haven't got where we want to, but I'm going to front it up and present it and take the, and explain where we are. I think, yeah, you know, I have worked for bosses. No names, no pack drill for the successes were theirs and the failures were ours. And I think, you know, and I think that, but, but, but it's still a, you know, paradigm that I think we can all recognize. And I think that's an important, you know, there's a little, there's a little parrot on your shoulder saying, you know, you celebrate the team's success and you, you're accountable for things that don't go quite how you want and the teams that you can go a long way. Yeah. That's, that's an important part of it. I think you're right. And, and the other is the bad news has to travel faster than the good in time. You build a culture where, you know, people want to come and tell you, no, look at what I've done. Isn't it great? And that's important. And we want to celebrate success. We want to celebrate that new contract win or that program milestone or that, that, that new, that M&A deal that we were on the cusp of, of course, those things are really important. But I'd much rather have a culture where you feel accountable and empowered to bring the bad news up for quickest so that we can get focused on and deal with it. And nobody feels to blame. They feel part of, well, that's how do we, how do we rally around and, and focus on how to fix it? And I think that's an important, if you can build a sense that that's your expectation and people respond, then it's self-reinforcing. As always, you don't turn around and throw the book out on them the first time it happens. And again, I have seen that, you know, what I do and what I say have to be aligned and consistent if you're going to retain that trust, that trust and build that sense of, of togetherness and the team. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We've covered a lot of ground here, but I'm really conscious that Ben's got a meeting coming up, right? So we need to get off. But I'm thinking, Neil, did we want to give Ben the opportunity if there's anything we haven't covered? Yeah. And you'd want to get across to the audience, right? So our listeners are experienced leaders, leaders looking to progress and aspiring leaders as well. Is there anything you'd want to get across that we haven't given you the chance in our questioning? I think it, no, I mean, I wouldn't presume, Chaps, you're the, you are the detectives after all. I'm just the witness. I wouldn't presume to. I think one thing I would say, but I can't resist. I think and I think one thing that from a career perspective, the life and it relates to this point about about being prepared to tell, I think being prepared to take risk with our careers is really important. And I think if I'm, if I think back to earlier stages of my career, being prepared to step up and take on things that were challenging, that were difficult, that other people might not want to do, I have taken jobs with people, but why did you want to work there? Oh, really? Oh, it comes. No, why do you want to do that? And I think that sense of being, because that's so stretching, you learn stuff by being operating in environments where you are the least informed person. I've changed, I've worked in aerospace, I've worked in defense, I've worked in national security, I've worked in government, I've worked in big corporations, I've worked in consulting businesses, I've worked in space, communications, the maritime sector, private equity back companies. I've quite varied career and each of those for me has been a sort of laboratory experiment. What can I learn? What was different? And each of those steps has had some risk attached. Why didn't you go up within the one segment or one industry or one discipline? I've done strategy, BED, sales, P&L, project management, program management, government, I've done a lot of different things. And I think taking risk is a good thing and it's a good way of honing, sharpening the saw and opening up new opportunities. And I think careers these days are about opportunities and seizing them and running with them. So, it seems to work with me so far. But who knows after this? Well, honestly, that's great advice to finish with that. All the growth is outside your comfort zone is basically what you just said, which is fantastic. So, Ben, look, I just want to say a massive thank you for dedicating this time to helping the people who want to learn about leadership. And anyone listening to this, there are so many clues in that episode. I would listen to it a couple of times because you won't get it first time round. Listen to it a couple of times to pick up on all the clues from someone who I consider to be a great leader. So, Ben, thank you for that. And Albert, I'll let you wrap up. Yeah, no, totally agree. Ben, thank you very much. I think as you're saying, you have some great messages in there. So, guys, please do pick them up. Thank you for listening in, guys. Any questions, any comments? You know, you've got the opportunity to put them down. This will obviously go out over LinkedIn. Please let us know if there's anything you want to hear different from Ben and anything you want to expand on. But thank you very much for listening in, guys. Talk to you again next time. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Neil. Okay. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubbron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support. [Music]