Leaders and Asking Questions: The Surprising Discovery of What Is Needed to Find Solutions and Build Relationships with Niels Van Quaquebeke

[Music] I am your host, Raquel Arck, an American podcasting from Germany. And this is Listen In. Join this series of conversations with inspiring scientists, leaders, and authors about listening as a surprising super power that is not always as easy as it seems. Believe me, I know. And I've been learning and will continue to learn. And I hope that this podcast will help you find practical ways to help others listen better while you become better at leading people, catalyzing collaboration, transforming conflict, building trust and engagement. And I'll tell you when really good listening happens, then the entire group, including you, can feel energized and inspired. So sit back and enjoy listening beyond what we typically think of. Listen In on my conversation with Niels Van Quackebecka, who is an organizational psychologist and professor at the Clu in Hamburg, Germany. He's been recognized many times as both a business scholar and for his teaching. Niels gives insight on his research on asking questions and respectful inquiry. And he shares what is needed for a proactive workforce through something he calls reverse communication. Enjoy listening in. Thank you for saying yes to this interview. Thanks for having me, Michael. Why don't we get started? And I'd love to hear about what brought you to your research. When I did my PhD, I did it on respect at the workplace. And part of my research endeavors in the PhD, what I did was also interviews with lots of people of what they considered respectful or this disrespectful treatment. And one issue that always surfaced was the certain syntax and that people actually considered questions really respectful. So I thought this is interesting. But as a PhD that didn't really resonate with me as a research question, it just lingered and I parked it in my memory for some later time. And then it happened that when I was working and a lot of them at the Redditor's School of Management, my medical colleague his name was Will Cels and he did research on bad apples. So bad apples is something you investigate and teams where you have one bad team member and over time that one bad team member basically turns the whole team bad. As a saying goes, one bad apple sports the barrel. So he did all these experiments with a paid actor that would behave as a bad apple and then he would videotape and observe how the teams would ultimately do rail. And he found that one of his teams did not do rail. So he went back to the videotape and to figure out what was happening there. And what he found was there was a guy who just kept asking questions. And by asking questions, he contained the bad apple. So the bad apple would say something wrong, there's a stupid I don't want to do it. And the guy would say, well, what do you mind if we continue doing it? Or the bad apple would say, oh come on, it's sunny outside, let's have some ice cream. And the guy would say, well, we can do this, but what do you mind if we now continue it? Or the guy would say, this is a stupid idea. And the guy would say, well, do you have a better one? So he completely contained the bad apple by asking questions. So Will and I get together, I from the respect side, he from the bad apple side and we thought, okay, there is something about question that we haven't even started to understand. And so we started digging into it. And we then did an experiment. An experiment where we basically set out two types of teams. The one team, the leader was asked to ask as many questions as possible because we thought if the leader asked lots of questions, then ultimately what will happen is that the whole team flourishes and everybody brings their best idea to the four. And the other group, the leaders for the other groups were asked to just lead the team towards the solution. And so we were completely confident that the teams that were instructed or the whose leader is were instructed to ask many questions would be outperforming the other one. And then we get the result. And there was nothing there. There was absolutely nothing here in the data. And I mean, you could turn twist data. But no matter which way we looked at the data, there was nothing there that was no difference. And so we let that simmer for a while. And then over time, we actually started to realize one of the simplest things that matter. Questions are just the spark. What is needed is listening afterwards. If you ask a question, but you don't listen, then you might as well not have asked the question or even worse, then it's almost like an insult being asked the question and not being listened to. And we came up with a theory which we called respectful and clear. And since then, I've been very interested in treats by this complex of question asking you. Just as you described what got you started there, I just remember a story from a colleague that I used to work with saying that she was giving a presentation on to, let's say, senior management. And how often she felt like questions were asked by people who wanted to position themselves. But they never listened to the answers afterwards. And that was really frustrating for her. And it reminds me a little bit about what you just described right now. Yeah, there is the saying, right? So we ask to reply and not to understand. And I think there is a lot of truth to that. And that does not need to be in work context. It is also in private context. It's often a friend tells us, or we ask a friend about her vacation and she starts telling us about sunny, whatever, Mario or color. And we don't really listen anymore. We just want to tell her now about our vacation in South Africa. So questions are good because on a surface level, they link us. But if we don't actually keep with the other one, it's a very frustrating experience. And so this is what got you started. And it's interesting that you had this idea and in your research, and then there was no results. And then it took a little bit of time to figure out that that questions are just the spark. And the listening is what is needed after. So now, how long ago was that? Huh. Sorry. This is research, right? So the actual experiment was probably nine or 10 years ago. And when I said we need to figure out why we did not have results, what actually happened is we will get it because a lot of effort, a lot of resources, went into this experiment and getting no results out of this. This is especially if you were junior in academia, that is not something you want. So we were disheartened by the result. And I think it took some time for us to ever want to confront that topic again. So I think what it took was for well, a mean to get tenure, meaning a safe position within the universities. And that's when we finally could get back to that passion of topic. If you were to explain to my 12 year old, what respectful inquiry is, what would you say? I would tell them, it's actually as easy as that. When you ask a question, see that you ask a question that's meaningful, that's open so that the other one can actually give you a full elaborate response. And then see that you make an effort to listen to understand. At least show that you're attentive to what the other one is listening, what the other one is saying. If you don't do that, you're not going to have any positive interaction. In fact, the other one may be really confused if you have them questioned, but don't listen to them. And I think we also do this because of the lack of time or other reason, but it's not good in human interaction. Now we'll move to a leader in an organization and to translate that also to someone in a leadership role. And what would you say to the leader? Let go of the notion of tell and sell, or at least not always tell and sell. There were times for tell and sell. And these are the grand gestures, the speeches that you have to give, the direction that you have to give. But more often than not, you will have bilateral interactions. And these types of interactions are going to profit a lot when you ask questions and actually listen to the other party. And there are three reasons for that. One, you actually get information that's really valuable that you otherwise wouldn't have. Two, if you ask questions and the other one responds and you come to a decision, you get a lot of commitment from the other side to that decision that you've jointly taken. And third, what you will also get is a lot of motivation from the other person because the other person will feel like they have some control. They feel like you actually care about them and they feel like you see their competence. And these three things are what we consider basic, ecological needs. Now by asking questions and listening to the other party, you actually satisfy them. And that's when people feel like they can really flourish and work. And that's when they were going to put in the best effort and you don't have to concept the guide and control them. And after all, that's what you want to believe is. You want a proactive workforce. But in order to, for that to happen, you got to take the course deeper space and reverse the communication in a way that you don't tell and sell all the time, but also ask and listen. - Can you think of a moment where someone asks you a question that impacted you in that way? - Yes, like right now. Look at that. What you've done right now is I have a thought about that question. Now you prompt me to think about it. You've put me on a reflection process. And even though I may not respond, I may not be able to respond because I don't have that situation ready to be available. What you communicated is, hey, look, I'm giving you the freedom to express yourself, you are in control. I care enough about the answer, I care about you. And I feel there is an answer that you're looking forward to. And all that makes me feel really good. And now you put me on a trajectory thinking more about these types of questions. I guess I could list some, but these often then become very intimate because I feel some of the best questions we get asked. If we're honest with ourselves, they get to the very core through we are. And these are then very powerful questions for motivation and determining the trajectories that we want to take in our life. So I'm a little bit coy to give away the best questions that we'll ask you. - I love your answer though, but it's true. I mean, those types of questions when they really touch us at the core, it's like they need time to like, you need time to chew on them to think about it. And there are probably questions that, I don't know, I've had questions asked me that I'm still chewing on even after a couple of years. - So what would happen to me? So I tried to live an honest life, like being true with myself and as far as I can with others. And so what just happened last week, I got a friend over and she asked me some questions. And I gave her surface answers, you know, la la la la la. And then as the evening or the night progressed, but the end, I found out those were bullshit answers. Those were not the answers that I actually feel, like those were the answers that I should say, but not the answers that are actually true. And so it took the course of the evening for me to come up with a better answer. And I think that's sometimes what good questions are. They provide reflection and in doing so, they provide a lot of guidance, but it's not immediate. It may have a more sustained impact on me than just another moment. If you think about, you know, this impact of questions and also thinking, even if you don't tell the stories and a little bit shy about that or a coin, what do you think, what is your biggest learning that you've learned so far for yourself when it comes to the topic of listening? - One of the most powerful communication techniques if you wanna call it, that we have at our disposal and we use it so little. And it's powerful, I don't mean a way to manipulate or influence other people, but powerful in a way to connect with other people. And maybe that's one of the reasons why we use it so little because it's so powerful that maybe I'll support be frightening how quickly relationships get deeper when you do this with each other, when you ask good questions and listen. So we may only use it very sparsely because we're afraid that we can't handle the death of multiple relationships going on. But yeah, if you invest a little bit in subtracting enough, you will have better relationships and found this striking and the executive education that I do for managers is you actually help the other people along. So I think this is one of the biggest revelations, especially if you're in manager positions, you often think I'm there to fix problems. I am there to come up with solutions. After all, this is what I've been hired for. And so their communication pattern is often and they get told a problem. And instead of listening to the whole problem and diagnosing it, they come up with solutions, they're really, because they feel that's what they're for, they're the fixer. But when I do this in my seminars with people, it's actually what they do to each other. What they find out is that they don't need to fix it for the other person. They just need to listen and help the other person with their attention that the other one actually then feels confident to explore for themselves. What type of solutions they have within them and where they would like to go. And at the end of the process, it's like both people, the listener, so the one that we asked the questions then was listening and the advocacy, they're both lowing because they're so mesmerized by the experience that the listener, a question after first, because it was a struggle to not go on talking. And then actually because your C found out a lot about the other party that he would usually not have. And the advocacy is, I think, taken aback by how much resourcefulness is within them. If only somebody there to support them with listening and some attention, not with solution. And that's the epiphany that many people carry out of these seminars, that are powerful, it is for the relationships and also ultimately for finding solutions. - What you were talking about, something, I think when I first started on this listening topic and how I understood it back in the day and how I understand it now has changed and evolved. And a lot of times, we think about listening and how do I, I'm listening to you so that I can be more effective in my job or to get this project done or to find the solution, what you just talked about. But what you're talking about is a listening that if I listen to you, I'm actually helping you be more effective in your work and help you be more satisfied or more motivated. So it's what you talked about, reverse communications, a reverse listening, then often we've been, probably either taught if we've been taught in school. It's a reverse type of listening that we often think about. - So I don't know what reverse type of listening is, but. (laughs) - Well, you said reverse communication to your leaders. When you were talking about leaders, you talked about reverse communication. So then I took your word, I started thinking about reverse listening. So you just, I'm building on, (laughs) - Actually, okay, so this is actually great because if, let me run with that. So initially, I'm the one, so if I ask the question, I'm the one listening to you. And I think what it does, if I actually listen to you and provide you space for your answer, what it does is that you start to listen to yourself as well. So it is a reverse listening. It's not anymore the actual listener listening, but it's the, the adoracy that's also listening to him or herself. And I think once we start listening to ourselves more, we feel what parts of our answers ring through and what parts are wrong. We, it's like, I'm asked to paint something and just by somebody else listening to me, he also shows me my painting. And so in doing that, I see immediately what I've been painting and I can correct the parts that have not been good and can add more beauty into other parts or leave other parts of why. So, so yeah, it is like a reverse listening. It's like, or maybe by listening to you, I motivate a self-listening that otherwise wouldn't happen because we don't take a lot of time for that even though. So yeah, we're good idea. I should explore that and my research. - Well, I'd love to hear more. And so let me, can I take it one step farther? You ready? - Bring it on. - So, so now we have the listener and then the reverse listening. And then through this process, we have a wee type of listening, a collective listening that's emerging with ideas out of the you and the I. So it's not just about you listening to me so I can, to get, you know, be more effective in your work than all of a sudden you're listening to me so that I'm more effective. But yet we're listening to each other in a way that new ideas are emerging. - Well, I guess we listening is a good turn for that. See, that's for me and my little researcher brain that's too much complexity. So I only focused on one direction so far and trying to properly understand that. I have yet to explore what would happen if we did the rest of it. But yeah, I imagine there is a new emergent state of what will happen between the two of us. To the ideas that we come up with, the relationship that we ultimately feel with each other. And maybe also the type of commitment that we join to feel as a diet towards whatever we come up with. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so when I think, when you go back to your executive training and you, and you see the impact of each other of the two people that are listening to each other and how they're impacting each other, then two. bring that to a team and how a team as a whole can listen to each other. That's a much more complex because there's more people involved and the system is influencing and whatnot, but that's really interesting. We currently do some experimental research with my colleagues at the University of Hamburg. Well, we actually look at question and listening dynamics within teams and our hypothesis are indeed that it will change something about the fundamental dynamics within the team. Good lot. If you have teams working professionally with each other, one part is professional, but the other one is just the humans thriving force or striving, not thriving, but both maybe striving for status. And so we're in this attention-seeking game and many type of conversation when one wants to be better and smarter than the other. And some are maybe calling and don't speak up and so on and so on. So we are currently exploring and how far question asking and attentive listening can actually break into that cycle simply because I communicate as a leader to my team that I will listen to them that everybody feels there was enough of that resource. And when they feel there was enough of that attention resource, they don't compete anymore as much with each other but cooperate. But the results are yet to be seen. So we're in the middle of the recruiting. That's another very labor-in-chance study. So we hope, unlike our first study in that realm, that something will come out of it. With your work with the executives, what is it that they are either concerned about or want to know more about? One of the common concerns is that when I ask and listen, I see weak because ultimately I will or at least that's the fear that the fear they come across is not actually knowing stuff. That's what they have to ask and listen. And it's odd that everybody in the room has that fear for him or herself and yet where we reverse it and I put it to them while if you bought that with you, what do you think about your bought? Everybody says, "Oh, that would be a breath of fresh air, actually kudos to her or him for allowing me that space." I'm saying that actually speaks to leadership strength and so on and so. And actually, if we do look into the research, we can confirm that. So people that ask and listen, they are seen as a leader. And they were surprisingly effective also. And yet we allow ourselves so little of that because we think it breaks with a stereotype of how we are to be a leader. So it's a big psychological hurdle to overcome. And so we talk a lot about that. And ultimately, I think the solution to that is start the practice. Start to practice question-adding and listening. Maybe just among your circle of friends or with your romantic partner. And see what it does there. And then take that momentum because it will be positive in most circumstances, as I would assume. And take that momentum and bring it to work. Start it in small little experimental meetings that you would have. Not tell anybody about it and just see how things are going. And I would just think that you will have so many positive experiences coming out of that that you will learn that it's not a weakness, but a strength. I think because in the organizational environment, this attention-speaking thing that people are so afraid their voice is not going to be heard, they're all interrupting each other and speaking that in the end nobody listens to each other. And then it creates a vicious cycle there. Yeah, I mean, it's, and truth be told, if you're together with other alpha people and you're the one listening and asking questions, kind of tough, right? You feel that others are getting the stage light in itself. So I wouldn't say that you should start by bringing that communication to the big room. I'm staying started with the growing employees within your team. And then see how you can change the culture there and go step by step. It's ultimately a big cultural change that we'll have to take place. You don't need to start at the top, at least not if you're not right at the top yourself. And you don't have to ask only questions. You can also, you know, ask questions and you can speak out. Actually, I would strongly second that. So one of my communication psychology advisors, he's a German Friedman Schultz von Tuen, he told me very early in my career that he considered question-asking and listening a very defensive form of communication. And I was confused when he said that. But over time, it made sense because what you're often not doing is you're not revealing what your opinions are. You don't argue. You don't take a stand. And I think sometimes that's refreshing and circumstances where there isn't too much of that, and like in certain management cycle, circle. But all in all, I would say, now you need to find a balance. So it's not just question-asking, listening, but it's also revealing. Let me make this clear with an anecdote. So let's assume you, Rekael and I, we're going on a blind date. And I have been listening to, listening else from me. So I know that I should ask a lot of questions and listen to you. And that's what I do. So we meet in this cafe. I ask you lots of questions and listening very attentively to you. And that's how the evening goes. And you go back and you probably think, wow, jackpot. There is a guy, who doesn't only talk about himself. There is a guy who didn't use any of my stories to interject his own viewpoint. There is a guy who was actually interested in me. That's awesome. So we go on a second date. And on the second date, I do exactly the same. And again, you go home and you're like, wow, this is great. He's not a one-for-poony. Apparently, that's really how he is. He just tried to fake it on the first date. But maybe I have my jackpot in my hands right here. This is a guy who cares about other people, who cares about me and who stays with me. And I really feel understood having him at my side. So nice to finally be seen. So we do this third date and we do it maybe on a fourth date. And on a fourth date, afterwards, you will start to question yourself. And I ask, what do I actually know about me? I mean, it's nice. It's also nice. He's really with me. I feel he sees me. But there was nothing that I see. There was nothing that he reveals of who he is. And any question that I may have for him, he actually turns it around into a question for me. So who is this guy? And do I actually feel safe with him? Or is that not some, just some freak who is studying some psychology to get into my head? And I think you wouldn't go on a date with me again. For good reason, there is not, as a leader, you shouldn't always have vision and have strong opinions. But there are times when you show it happy because other people need to see what you stand for, what you want to achieve, how you want to achieve it. And on the other side, you should also listen and ask good questions and really be with the people. It's found more in the middle. The answer is never one or the other. The answer is all of us both. And you need to find a balance that fits into the particular context that you operate in. So I was also asked is when I wrote the article. I think right now, if I were to give advice, which direction to go into, I would always go into asking questions and listening because I think that's what we currently don't have enough and almost all parts of our lives. So doing a little bit more of that would probably not hurt. If you then find you're doing too much of that, you can always steer this steering wheel a little bit back into a more balanced position. But right now, I feel the steering wheel is completely oversteered into this talent cell vision, influencing type of communication. And that's not good for social cohesion and good relationship. And I love, I think that's the thing is this balance in doing both. And maybe the question is where the starting point is or paying attention to what the situation needs or what the context is. There's a lot more to pay attention to in just one way. And I think a lot of times in these conversations, also with teams or between leaders and their employees when they meet every couple of weeks to talk about what to do and all that. They focus a lot on what needs to get done, the checklist, which is important. And yet, often, what is missed out in the conversations is about who that person is, what motivates them, what excites them, where they'd like to grow. And this is something that I've noticed also when I've working with some clients and stuff, if they take time to actually balance that out more, so that also takes sharing because there's vulnerability there. So it may take questions from the leadership, but it also may take sharing from the employees or from the different members of the team that taking that time to share besides just getting the job done and fixing problems, makes a big difference in terms of building the relationship and building trust and that cohesiveness. Peace. I think we humans are multi-level, so we're just not only professional in the machine. There is a way more. And we want to pay you to that. So the way how I look at this is we should be careful of the type of questions we're asking. So just the question that you're asking be a very different type of question. So for instance, many people, especially leaders, like to ask rhetorical question. I think rhetorical questions are an insult because they prompt us, but then they don't really want an answer because they speak a good answer in my whole self. And I think often when we also do work, it's not only rhetorical questions, but we use questions that are almost controlling. So there is a right answer. And you just want to know what the right answer is from you. So as a professor, some of us would also do this with students or we would ask something in the classroom. And it's clear there is only one right answer. Now that type of question is not motivating because you either have it right or you fail, but you cannot explore. And so there are lots of these questions. Then there are questions that are very close, so where I only want to know, yes or no from you. And yeah, I can answer that, but I don't feel like I have a lot of control or actually any type of opportunity to lay out my reality. So you won't get much connection or motivation for me for that. So what we argue is actually we should cater in our communication to allow for open question. Because open questions really are an invitation for the other one to fully elaborate and answer. And through that answer, you may have personal issue or may want to convey personal issues, but also professional issues as well. But you will only do that if there was an open question. And here it becomes tricky because we know that an open question wouldn't invite that. Many of us in our professional life do not ask open questions because we don't give ourselves the time for such an answer. So in order or in a false attempt trying to be efficient, we ask close questions, hoping that the answer then is really short and we can progress with our usual agenda. And I think that's a real short sentence. Give a little room for open questions and the magic will happen. And in the long term, you will feel a lot more effective. So one of the things that comes up is that people are taught to ask the why question, ask why five times. And yet there's also research issues that why can create defensiveness. So if it's why the question's relating to purpose, some vision, that's one thing, but it means why did you do it that way, then people get defensive. And I tell them that's really the most naive way of thinking about question. I think what questions ultimately should relay is that you have an interest in the other party and what the other party has to say. And then you are not judging what they have to say. As soon as they feel judged or that you don't have an interest, you can ask whatever type of question you want to ask. It's not going to elicit any type of positive effect. So the why question for instance, I can ask it in a way that's really inviting. I'm really interested. Rebecca, can you explain to me why you did that? That sounds amazing. Or I could say, Rebecca, why did you do that? And it's a completely different why question. And so a lot of it I think resides in the type of nonverbal communication that we also uphold with the other parties, whether we seek eye contact, whether there is a certain friendly and there's an openness to our face. A lot of them, the tone of the question. And ultimately it comes down to your intention, why? Do you have questions? Do you want to ask questions so you can reply and control the conversation or do you have questions? Because you want to understand the other party, not judge the other party. Can you think back at a time where you started to really notice listening in the magic that it can bring? Do you remember when you really took a step back and thought, oh, there's something there? Was it when you did your research or was there something before? I was during my research. And so my family lived this first round the globe. And I had a Skype conversation with one of our family members. And he would ask me, so Neil, how is it going at this new university? And the Skype conversation would be an audio, so not video. And that's great, right? So it showed a true interest in my answer, and it was an open question. So I laid out my answer. It's like, oh, yeah, I don't know. This is a start-up university. I've never been there. A lot of administrative work, but it's also the energy is so cool. Anyway, so I started to really delve into my answer. And that's what I heard over my headphones was click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. So that other family member, what he was doing while we were Skyping, he was typing something on his computer, whether answering in the email or browsing, the internet or whatever. And it felt like he just violated an implicit contract without. And that implicit contract is, if you ask me a question, do you listen? If you don't do that, I almost feel violated, because I laid myself bare to you, and you completely disregard it. And that's when it hit me that listening is the important qualifier to questions, meaning listening either has the potential to make a question that much more potent and powerful in its positive effect. But at the same time, non-listening or distracted listening has the same power to turn a good question into something that feels more like a violation and will produce complete backlash effect. And that's what I thought, OK, there is no way to think of question asking and listening as to separate independent elements that have nothing to do with it each other. But we have to find configurations where we think of simultaneously to actually uncover their full effect. And that's part of what's driving you forward now with some of your research. Yes. If you were to share something that would be helpful for leaders and organizations, is there a tool that you would recommend? Yeah, there is a tool that I love that's called Feast Forward, and in one version of it that has been developed by Professor Avi Kluge from Heaver University. The technique is actually quite simple, but super powerful. It's supposed to be an addition to your yearly feedback talk. Maybe even a substitute, but at the very least in addition. And the way out goes, if I were this to do with you, Raquel, I would ask you, can you remember in the last year the moments at work where you work completely at flow, energy pulsing? And so everything was right. This is how you want to work. And you felt it before the results were known. So not when you see all the deal or something was ready and you could take the credit for something, but actually in the activity itself, do you remember such a moment? And I would wait for you to come up with such a moment. And if that didn't happen within the last year, I would ask you what would happen in the last two years or three, here, four years. Hopefully we will identify such a moment that you have like a concrete moment. And I would then ask you, well, can you describe this moment, the pinnacle of that moment, a little bit more to me, and you would describe that pinnacle a little bit more to me, but what happened, how you felt, what you did. And then I would try to awaken your emotions a little bit and that are connected to that memory. So can you describe to me how you felt when that was happening? And if I were to see you in that situation, who would I see, what does this Raquel and flow, what does she look like? How did you go home? How did you go to work? What did you do? Did you have a happy dance or whatever? And so you would describe some of that. And over this conversation, we would already see that with your body, you're starting to relax, you're starting to smile more because you're remembering that situation and the energy of that situation. And it's then that I would ask you, OK, the sounds are really, really good. And do you want to have this again? And if you would say yes, now I would say, well, if you wanted to have this again, and these sounds like a great moment, can you, let's try to analyze what happened? Or what do you think were the factors that led to this pinnacle moment in your work activity? And you would tell me something. And I would then simply engage in active listening. So paraphrasing what you said, maybe an emotional paraphrase. Maybe I would just nod and say, no, or just after, OK, is there a mare? But is there more? And so that may take some time for you to fully explore by yourself, and just with the help of my attempt of listening. To fully explore what the factors were that were relevant. And the session would then conclude with us, or with me saying, this really sounds great. And I feel-- feel that I've understood the fact that you're happy, that you're flow moment. And I really want to recreate this for you, if you are for this, and if you say yes, then the two of us will now start thinking, "Mug, what we can do, or what you can do in the next year in order to experience the moment." So what is it that we need to do, like at work, what that you need to do in order to out more of these moments? And because we've just analyzed, not only the moment, but the factors in detail that led to, that apparently you were this meaningful configuration, we will look for ways how we can recreate these meaningful configurations of work. For some of that, you may support of me as a leader, and some of that stuff you may just be able to do by yourself. And you're now motivated to do it, because not only did you remember that situation, but you felt the situation, you felt how positive it is, and you want to relive it. So now there is this positive motivational momentum, helping you to put your plan in direction. And that's a very, very powerful technique. Now if you don't think that's powerful, try it out with your partner at home. Try with your partner to ask your romantic partner, or a friend in our relationship over the last year. Was there a moment when you were really at flow with me or our relationship? Where you felt everything was right, that was before the results were now, and you were just lost with me in the moment, and because you could enjoy it, or you could enjoy it, before any of the results were gone. And then let the partner reflect, and let's see what the partner comes up with as answers. And let's see what the partner comes up with as factors, as part of the configuration that led to that moment. And then work on that together as a couple to recreate these moments. I think in a lot of ways, this is a lot more powerful than coming up with New Year's resolution. This is instead of that, do that on New Year's, and ask your partner that, and then see whether you can create or more fulfilling year together and year to come. - That's a great New Year's resolution plan. That's great. Maybe we'll be there. (laughing) All right, I think you've just inspired us. (laughing) - Well, hopefully you don't have to go 10 years back to find a good moment that you're in for it. (laughing) - And if it takes 10 years, at least that 10 years can be hopefully recreated somewhat. (laughing) - Oh gosh. Nice, thank you. If you, I know that sometimes on, I mean, you post some things. I love that you like to make people think. Is there something that you would love to impact or shake up in terms of a perception or perspective on things? - Yes. So I think it's pretty clear that we're moving into a digital age. And what that will also entail is also that management of parts of leadership will become digital, meaning we are gonna be governed by agrarian. You have to love people. If you don't love people, if you don't take an interest in people, please do not become a leader. There is already in the past, there was little use for you as a leader. You could just be any on manager and role. But in the future, I think at all, there will be even less use for you because you're not bringing added value to the table. And there's maybe a harsh statement, but it also gives me hope for a better future in which humans actually do what humans are good for. And that is fostering human connection and meaning and motivation in other humans. Because all the algorithmic parts, all the strategic decision making that may at some point actually be better done by machine. So embrace the change that is coming, become a little bit of a mini psychologist. And you will see the wonder that you can do for this world for your work for. It will leave everybody better off at the end. Not only the people working with you, but ultimately probably the products that you're developing for their services. And the purpose you're gonna feel of why you're under service and what you're gonna be behind. - I love that. So be a people lover leader. - Yes. I don't think there should be any other type. - Yeah. (laughing) - I think if you have to come a leader and don't love people, I wish you would move out of that role because you're making many people live and you're own really miserable. And you're not contributing the value that you think you're contributing. There are other roles for you. Not everybody has to be a leader by far, not everybody should be a leader. And I hope we move into a future where we can decouple leadership from status and financial rewards because that currently makes people move into these positions that are not always the best suited for it. And they find out too late. - Oh, Nils, it's really been a pleasure. I'd love to hear a note. What would you like our listeners to know about your book? I know it's only in German, but we also have a lot of German listeners. So. (laughing) - Okay, so the book was a great opportunity by the site, which is a major publisher in Germany. They have a huge newspaper. And they said they wanted to do something on leadership. And so I told them, if they want to do something on leadership, the only way I'm gonna do it for them or with them is by actually making people appreciate people. So, make people understand that in order to be a leader, you have to like, you have to understand people in order to move them. So this book, the psychology of leadership is really just that. I try to take people along the journey of psychology and what part of psychology are very useful for you as a leader if you wanna guide individuals, if you wanna guide groups, or if you wanna guide organizations in terms of the culture. So it's like a 10 hour crash course. So it's 10 hours of video and a book, the crash course in psychology. Hopefully making people realize that psychology is not this arcane knowledge is actually very, very common-sensical. And if you apply just a little dose of that, it means the world to people. And you will be so much more effective with people. And by that being a better leader. Some people actually get something out of that. But at least the feedback so far is very encouraging. - Yeah, great. Maybe eventually we have it in English too, we'll see. (laughs) - Actually, we are currently, because the feedback is so great, and multiple of people from my English speaking audience and I'm social media have to ask about that. We're currently contemplating doing a second edition in English and deep. If people want to contact you, how do they do that? - The best way to stay in touch with me or contact me is via social media. So I'm on all the regular social media channels. So LinkedIn, Twitter, if you just want to see how I look like an Instagram or if these are placed to go. But otherwise LinkedIn and Twitter is super. That's also where I posted a lot of the updates. So interesting research or insights that I find quirky enough to push them out there. It's for me, it's almost like a personal bookmarking. It's like, oh, this is interesting. Okay, now that I've read about it, I want other people to know about it as well. And that's what you're gonna get if you connect with me. - Okay, great. We'll also have your contact information at the bottom of the, underneath the podcast. Thank you, Nils, for this wonderful conversation. (upbeat music) I'm your host, Raquel Ark, from Listening Alchemy. And I hope you are inspired by this episode of Listen In. And find one person today to practice your Listening Superpower. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with others for more practical and inspiring stories and examples so that we can catalyze a listening movement together. Find more information at www.listeningalchemy.com. Enjoy listening in. (upbeat music)