LDS Loudmouth Ep. 1 - Families Can Be Together Forever Except Yours

Hello and welcome to Elias Loudmouth. I'm Kim. I'm Jane and this is where we are learning to speak up and reach out Making our world a better place because each of us is a part of it Welcome back and today's episode is Families can be together forever except yours What we're gonna be talking about today is how does LDS doctrine affect people in the church whose families don't fit the mold Also, how does this affect those trying to live the doctrine within their own families to help their families Quote make it into the celestial kingdom and thirdly, we're also gonna be talking about those at peace with their families as they are And reject the doctrine of traditional sealed families and accept that God is a kind and loving God How does the doctrine reflect and how other members treat them? That's a lot of stuff. That is a lot of stuff So Jane and I both have families that don't fit the mold and Jane is gonna talk about her Personal experiences now before I get started I wanted to explain to you what the mold is we're not talking about the green or brown stuff or black stuff that's in your walls We're talking about the traditional family mold the one husband One salary earner the wife stays home and takes care of the children the 3.5 kids whatever that's the mold we're talking about The nuclear family the nuclear family as opposed to what oh, yeah I was going to the atomic family as opposed to the atomic family. Okay, we're gonna talk about this Okay, I was raised in a traditional Mormon family my dad worked outside the home my mom worked inside the home The second of six kids mom did a lot of work. I went to BYU I took a long time to graduate, but while I was there I dated a little bit here and there but nothing really serious When I finally graduated I moved to New Jersey and started working. I met a very nice very recent convert to the church and two years later We got married in the temple while he was in school I worked then we went off for him to get a master's degree and I worked there in California When he announced after working for two years after his first Master's he announced that he wanted to get a PhD So we moved to Texas where I said if you want to get a PhD I want to be a stay home mom because that's what we had discussed when we were getting engaged So in Texas I was a stay home mom and I homeschooled my son that we had in California and in Texas I had two more kids then we moved back to New Jersey for his PhD and I went back to work and Eventually I ended up homeschooling my younger two kids through junior high and high school now since my husband was a Recent convert. I tried to teach him how to be the leader in the home as we have been taught But he never really caught on he resented me bossing him around Mm-hmm. I guess I didn't have a good teaching style back then Oops, I Resented him for not living up to what he had promised when we got engaged in his study wanted Which was me to stay home with the kids and for him to earn all the money He stopped going to church when our youngest was eight for various reasons He often accused me after that of wanting to divorce him because he wasn't going to church anymore whenever we had an argument He goes, oh, you're gonna divorce me now, huh? Oh geez that made me mad because I felt like he thought the only reason I'd married him Was because he was a member and not because of any of his redeeming qualities the nice thing during that time though Was that he never pressured me to stop going to church in fact He used to tell me to go get church up because it made me a nicer person Also, if I was still paying tiding which I was the church would be obligated to help us out if we needed it And he liked that now when he stopped going to church a few people would ask me where he was and how he was and why he wasn't coming anymore My standard answer was will go ask him I wasn't gonna tell people his answers Our home teachers would still come by and he would be pleasant and they were nice and as time went on people just accepted the fact that I was a single member marriage family And it really helped that I was in a small branch that was filled with more divorced and never married women with children than the traditional Mormon family We also had a lot of transient families young marries there to get a degree from NYU So that there were a lot of little young married families with tiny children As my kids grew into their teenage years they'd have times when they didn't want to go to church So instead of just letting them choose and just giving up on them I told them that they had one active parent and one in active parent so they could skip half of their meetings But never too in a row unless they were sick of course it worked out pretty well My son had issues as a teenager but he went on a mission and then he came back and got married in the temple when he was in college Currently he has three kids my grandkids and he is living the nuclear family tradition of him working with his wife at home with the kids and And homeschooling. Wow. I divorced my husband when my kids were mostly adults the youngest was 17 Now it had nothing to do with the fact that he wasn't going to church anymore It had to do with a lot of other things which we will not go into here My new ward where I moved was a mix of various types of families Again some fully intact some divorce some never married with varying amounts of children They accepted me in my two youngest right away and I never felt looked down on because I was divorced My youngest child stopped going to church when they entered college and has since met and Is currently living with a wonderful other non-binary LGBT person and a roommate and I love them both My middle child after they came out stayed in the church went on a mission but has since formally left the church There are a few members of the word who treat my kids on the rare occasion that they come with me usually to potlock dinners or holiday dinners as regular friends and people and make them feel welcome without being pushy Then there are others who come up to me when I'm all by myself and compliment me on being so strong and still loving them Even though they are no longer in the church I just give them a stare and tell them that I'm proud of my kids for choosing to leave an institution that was not good for them And that I'm their mother and I will always love them no matter what And if I had to choose between the church of my kids I would pick my kids every time that usually shuts them up There's one more way that I don't fit in At this point I consider myself a nuanced Mormon. Over the years since my kids came out I've been learning more about church history, listening podcasts that are inclusive Or that bring up complicated topics and the alias traditions reading books that explain historical spirituality and other aspects of religion, ours and others And I have decided for me what I will and will not believe or live up to as a member of the church Because of this I sometimes feel like an imposter. I feel like I'm pretending to be a true Mormon but as an extrovert in church settings I do enjoy making comments in classes where I can to bring up alternate interpretations of scriptures, family dynamics and church teachings So that others will know that it's okay to feel and believe differently Well, that's me married in the temple divorced mother to a son with a wife and family And a one-member adult child who still lives with me and a adult child who lives with their life partner and another friend who I am only too happy to have his additional members in my family Thank you so much Jane, that was great, like I know the story but everyone else doesn't so thanks for that For me the things that brought me to where I am and where I don't fit them all is my originally dating outside the church I was in California and like there was not a lot of selection when it came to Mormon boys And I remember growing up my mom had a perpetually single friend who never found somebody She always said about her friend who I adored and loved I called her my aunt even though like later I realized there is no blood relation and I figured that out a little late She was a member of your family, she was a member of my family we went to go see her and she was like and she was an artist and she was super cool and I loved her She does sound super cool Oh yeah, she was what made me want to do art. Anyway my mom said that it would have been better to be married to a non-member than not at all That kind of stuck. I never fit in with other Mormons and even less so once I returned from my mission and went to the YSA ward also nicely dubbed the meat market Most of the mar oh god, it's so bad and so I remember coming back and going to the YSA ward with my two younger brothers who I will call Clark and Allen So Clark and Allen went to church with me I was living at home with them and I would hear my brothers judge other girls by their looks And it just didn't feel right to me because of their entitlement because they were return missionaries. It was pretty gross. I would just sit there and be like so are other boys thinking of me the same way If that's the case, yeah no thanks. I would end up going out with my friends. I was the only Mormon in my friends group like close friends So I would be the designated driver for going out and taking them to the bar and I babysit and when we get drunk they're like "Kim's the best" because she doesn't need to get drunk so we can all have fun, yay! There are advantages to being the designated driver. Oh for sure they love hanging out with me. So that was kind of where I met my husband. You actually met him in a bar? I did. I met him in a bar. I did not know that. I'm good for you. My husband's name is Robin and I remember being at the bar he came up to me and it was on Halloween in a college town. Oh wow. So we were all dressed up. I was in my little outfit where I was a escapee from Bellevue mental hospital. Okay. And my husband was a punk rock kid and I thought his guy liner was so hot back in 2005 you know. He talked to me and we kind of hit it off. I broke my bar rule and I gave him my phone number. He texted me the very next day and I was like "oh man this guy must like me" because he broke the cardinal rule. Yes. Yeah. day rule so you don't speak like so you're not some weirdo. I'm like okay fine fine we'll go with this. We ended up dating for a year and then he proposed. I ended up giving him a tentative yes. We had made arrangements where he would take me to the Fresno Temple to go and have a session while he sat out in this outside and then I would get my answer and that was like a really big deal. Honestly that makes me know that he's a keeper for you to do that. My husband is agnostic that kind of like is on the side of like atheism you know so like it's like I don't care enough but if I do I really think there isn't anything kind of a deal. When I went in I got my answer and it was just kind of like okay I'm like okay okay okay okay I ran outside and I told him and I was really happy because it was a two-hour drive and if it was a no it would have been a really uncomfortable drive home. And and he told me he was like that was the one time in my entire life I've ever prayed and he has never prayed since. Well his prayer was answered so why did he need to after that? That's true that's true. Eight months later we ended up getting married obviously not in the temple. We were married by my family war bishop and it was great and it was beautiful but as the marriage progressed I started to have things come up where it was like what ifs in my mind? What if me being married to him not in the temple means that we're not going to be together forever you know and I would have all of these things run through my mind and it really was very difficult for like after right before we started having children. I really had to think hard to kind of get over that and work myself through that because I loved my husband I wasn't going to change him. We had talked a lot a lot while we were engaged about like what was important to both of us. Me wanting to raise the kids in the church and also pay tithing because it was my money too when he was going to be the bread winner and he was like totally cool with that. Why wouldn't I want to have my kids be raised in the church was his thought if it made you a good person you know like I want my kids to be good people and if that's what made you a good person I'm okay with that. Like I said this guy's a keeper. And and I also felt really bad for the fact that there was a small portion of me that did want him to eventually join the church and I asked him I'm like are you okay with that I don't want you to change and that's a big deal and he's like no that's fine you know like I know you love me for who I am regardless. And and so we were able to kind of work that out and I was able to kind of overcome those thoughts and I am a fierce protector when it comes to people moving in on my husband when it comes to pushing religion on him. I don't think he realizes how protective I am. It's because you do it effectively. But I really am. I am like I will I have we've had missionaries over on like hey my husband's not interested don't even try if you do try we might have to have you leave. And my husband has like been really great about that after we had children he would come with me to church we have three kids. So once we had the kids he would come with me in church to kid wrangle. Yes I remember that. Yeah yeah so like for the first hour it was pretty hard because when you have small kids they're everywhere. How well I know. He helped me to like just be there in kid wrangle. He didn't give a thrust about like any other things that were going on. Although sometimes I would be on my phone because it's really hard to listen sometimes with the ADHD. Yes. And then he would like look at me as like you're supposed to be listening. I'm like excuse me. He gives me. But most of the time it was pretty good. When the kids got old enough where I didn't really need a kid wrangler. He stopped coming. So when he stopped coming for wrangling kids for the first hour I did get a few reactions from other ward members who noticed. So what did you say to them? Well like there was different reactions though because like the women really didn't say much. They were just like oh he's not coming anymore. I'm like yeah well he's just really not interested and the kids are fine. They knew why he was there. The men really thought that there was some sort of interest there and continued to really push. And like explaining to them that my husband was being a good husband and helping me with the children never really clicked in their minds. Even though for like for second and at the time third hour he never attended any of the classes. He sat outside in the hall. He sat in the car. You know he sat in the hall when it was like time for somebody to change a diaper or something like that because you know they just couldn't do it or he would just watch the baby and I would be baby free which was fabulous. Yes. Yeah. That was helpful and but no one really kind of none the dudes in the ward figure that out including the bishop and including the priesthood form leader and all of these other people and I'm just like yeah not not interested. Oh well don't worry about it. Ho-com. What? Clueless. Totally clueless. My bishop is a doll. Oh he is. He's my bishop too and I love him. Yes. Our bishop is a doll and I couldn't ask for a more sweet man. Yes. An understanding person to be our bishop. So that said there are a few things that have happened in my own personal experience with our bishop. I give him grace because I don't think he really is understanding of where I'm coming from. Yes this definitely falls into the category of how they treat you because you're not a married in the temple family. No I'm not married in the temple family and so I remember a couple years ago at this point I went in for a tidying settlement interview. And usually I get kind of chatty in the interviews you know to you chatty. Oh no never. And so like a lot of the time we go through a timing settlement interview and like I am lucky in two aspects whereas my husband and I are like don't have an income currently because he's like doing and it has been for a long time doing a business and we've been living off of our means that we have built up. We're luckily very well off and you were tired for that and we worked hard for that. Yeah and got very lucky. And secondly I can say I have a full time in the second part because I don't make the money. You don't? So zero income, zero tidings. Zero income, zero tidings. So I am a full-time parent and I have two loopholes to prove it. And so during the tidying settlement interview I really got this like assumption about of pity from the bishop. It like I just made a pity noise. It's okay it's okay. Because like I because he of course he was asking me what happened to my husband. I thought he was interested. I'm like no. You know and I had to explain to him that my husband was never interested. We'll probably never be interested even though in our dating life we joked that I would baptize him after he dies. I know several women who have that arrangement with their husbands. Yeah. Yeah. He's just like well you can baptize me after I die just in case. That's just in case. Closon. Yeah. That's fine. We're okay with that. Works for me. My bishop didn't really understand that my marrying him was a prayerful one. Yeah. That like his most ladies who have who are in our ward and have non-member husbands are that way by circumstance other circumstances because either they found their husbands when they walked away from church and then came back or they ended up being married and then coming into their church and their husband didn't follow that. So he thought that I felt like my marriage was less than because my marriage was not a temple marriage because that's the assumption he was making about me and my marriage. So if that was what he was thinking then I was probably thinking that which is not the case at all. No. And I had to sit there and explain it and explain my story about how I never strayed from the church. I am a return missionary. This was a very thought out and prayerful thing I did and I don't feel that my marriage is less than. No. At all. That was a odd experience for me. And then jump forward a couple months where my middle son has his eight-year-old baptismal interview. That was extra weird for me because the conversation understandably was the bishop telling my son about how he wanted to get baptized and he was under age and his family weren't members and his dad was vehemently against him getting baptized and then he finally was able to get back. those same assumptions were made about my family and how my husband felt. Which is not the case at all. No. Like the problem is with most of the men that I came across in our ward is they're not asking how I feel. Right. They're not asking questions. They are making assumptions on their own feelings and projecting that on me from their own experience. From their own experiences. Yes, exactly. The other thing that was like a little felt a little off to me was my bishop was talking to my son and comparing the celestial kingdom to a basketball game. And how he went to a basketball game as a kid and they had scalpers outside selling tickets that were fake. And then he had real tickets. The baptism that my son was getting was the real ticket. Okay. Versus the scalper ticket that were fake. Meaning that the rest of the churches and baptisms were the scalper tickets and weren't going to allow them to get in. This really caused problems with me because hello my husband can't get in to the basketball game. How does that make my kid feel? I'm trying to protect my kid against people saying that daddy is bad or wrong because he's not a member and this was just not thought through very well. Thankfully red didn't seem to pick up on it right away so that was like a yeah. But like the kids smart. We've had other issues later on in the future with other instances where he picked up quick. And then like the other thing that was a kind of a weirdness was like he made a really big deal about my brother Allen and Allen's priesthood and how Allen was going to come out and perform the baptism and how important that priesthood wasn't stuff like that. And then my husband was a side note. And it wasn't even the fact that like that my husband supported it. He said that my husband allowed it. Oh that would have ruffled my feathers too. Yeah I'm like like it's so nice that your dad is allowing you to get baptized. I'm like no like he's there. My husband is always there to support our kids. Whatever that is whether that's a baptism whether that's a blessing whether that's me giving a talk whether that's my kids up in front singing or for a ward primary program. His butts in the seat. Yes. You know and of course my husband is always there for all the secular stuff too. You know like I mean parties are parties man. Yeah. So like that was kind of a big deal. I know the man meant well and I was going to write this huge letter but it seemed like I don't know somehow maybe he rethought things and I didn't really receive that kind of a thing again. Good. Yeah. I feel like maybe his wife might have had the conversation with him and like intervened because I think she's a little bit more self-aware of other people whereas he might not be. Right. Yes. So that's kind of my experience of really not fitting in and my my background on that. And also there are other ways that people are left out in our gospel when families are concerned. Like I came across a couple examples within my lifetime like when I was a missionary I served in the Georgia and land in North mission and there was a lot of people there that were very gung-ho and there was this single mom I remember talk to and I remember her specifically because I remember her daughter's name was Galaxy. Wow. And we were like Galaxy really? Oh my gosh. I don't remember her name for life. But I remember her daughter's name was Galaxy. Galaxy's mom. Galaxy's mom. Galaxy's mom had two kids and she was single and I think the missionaries before me came in and baptized her and didn't explain to her how she could be sealed in the temple to her children and just the fact that she was able to. And so I remember having this conversation with Galaxy's mom and her asking me is like I want to be sealed to my kids. Yeah. Like when can I go to the temple and get sealed to my kids? That was probably one of the hardest conversations I've ever had with a new member as a missionary because I was so pissed at the other missionaries that had baptized her because they didn't explain how it works. Right. You know they just said oh well you can get baptized and be with your children forever. Now this woman was not really a very active member so we were trying to reactivate her. Oh yeah. And when I had to explain to her that in order to be sealed to your children you have to be married to another man and be sealed to him for eternity and there was no man in sight for her. I just remember her entire countenance fall. Oh. And it was gut wrenching. And I was like this woman is never coming back to church. I wouldn't. Yeah. No one had told her that information and she expected that she was gonna go to the temple and she was gonna get sealed to her kids. And that was important to her. Having to have somebody else tell you oh yeah by the way you don't qualify. I was so mad at those missionaries. I cannot even imagine. It was so horrible and I just I I didn't know what else to do. I wanted to hug the poor woman but she didn't want me. You know I I was the bearer of bad news. Yeah. And so that was icky. And then on the flip side after I came back from my mission and got married and had a family my husband and I moved back to Georgia. Surprise! We went back to Atlanta and in Atlanta I had made some pretty good friends. The word I was in was pretty amazing and the people were amazing and the word was growing really rapidly. Even though the boundaries were freaking huge. Yeah. I lived outside of Atlanta once. Yeah. It was definitely the first salt and pepper word I had ever been in and it was lovely. So I've never heard that phrase before. Salt and pepper word. Yeah well I mean like you got most of these words and it's a bunch of salts. There's no pepper. Okay. I like being a little bit of salt among a lot of pepper. It made it better. The more spice the better. The more spice the better and the people were spicy. And so we had a lot of converts in our war and one of my really good friends like in that area had converted I think a few months before I had moved in and we got really close. She had a little girl and they both lived with her mother and her and her mother were single and her and her mother were converted to the gospel and they got baptized. Right. And it was it was cool and they had testimonies and I just remember talking to my friend and being like hey why did you get baptized because you do know like your mom and you will never be sealed to each other and you will never be sealed to your daughter if you don't marry another member man which is probably not in the cards and she just looked at me and she's like yeah but my daughter has that child and so I want that for her. This made me really cry. Yeah. Because one there's a whole thing about like in the church you're just like how strong are you? Right. You know and I'm just like you are a flipping amazing example you know as to the strength of faith and what that is you know and that's kind of how we look at our pioneer heritage a lot of the time is like see that meant a lot to those people because they sacrificed a lot. Right. And they were so strong. At the same time it also makes me think she's so strong and she's so deserving of being able to be sealed to her mom and her daughter and it's not fair. Right. Why why do we exclude good members from having those ceiling blessings for this episode. I went on to L.D. Austin org and typed in divorce and other topics like families can be together forever but things like that. And I read some really depressing articles. Mostly I did it in the general conference talks and there are some really great talks out there about celestial marriage about you know what happens when your children stray and I know our leaders are trying to be hopeful because they know we're all mucking through the trenches in this. But the one thing that I think that maybe your friend was holding on to is in this talk by Dylan H. Oaks about divorce and about how we really shouldn't unless there was no other option which in my case he talks a lot about how if two people work really hard they can keep their marriage together which is true but if one stops working at it. That's not what he said. But anyway but I love the last little line in here and this is what I think people who are not in in the traditional family thing. Hopefully they hear this part of the many many talks about how families can be together forever and you have to keep your covenants and you have to save yourself for marriage and all those other kind of things. And pray over your children so they'll come back kind of thing because I'm not praying over my kids that they come back. No way. They they should not come back to the current church. But anyway but he said this whatever the outcome and no matter how difficult your experience is you have the promise and this is what I think a lot of people are holding on to. You have the promise that you You will not be denied the blessings of eternal family relationships if you love the Lord, keep His commandments and just do the best you can. And yeah, but that's 10 minutes into a talk about how you have to shape up and you need to hold onto your marriage. And so there are little nippets in wherever they say they quote the Bible, "Train a child that in the way they should go and when they are old they will not." Oh, that kind of stuff. Kind of giving you. I mean, and then there's of course the stories and the scriptures of parents who had wayward children. Like, "Hoo!" Now Adam and Eve didn't reclaim Cain, just saying. Yeah. So there are parts of our doctrine that do kind of give us hope, but they are so few and far between and they don't explain how it can work in this life. Right. And don't get me started on family history and sealing people, the sealing people who are dead for a long time ago. Because if you can seal an unnamed woman to a man and have their children sealed to each other, you should be able to seal an unnamed man, to be named in the future, like to be announced, to be determined. Yeah, I love that. To a mother who is not married to their children. Yes. Because if I give birth to a child, which I did three times, having been sealed to my husband, who I am no longer married to, those children are sealed to me, no matter what he does, as long as I do the right thing. And I think there should be something there that we can work that would be more helpful and help those people who are in situations like that. But I digress. And as far as being divorced in the church, like I said earlier, I'm really, I really lucked out. If I had been divorced in a predominantly Mormon area, I would have had a completely different experience, I'm sure. Yeah. Especially if my husband had not been super inactive at the time and had been for seven years. If he had been active and I was active and I was active and then I divorced him and then we ended up going to church, that would have made it a completely different experience for me. I would have been a real deal for the women and for that matter some of the men who have to be in that situation. But it reminds me of the time my mom told me about a couple in their ward. You know, good-out to any family, lots of friendly kids, married the temple, blah, blah, blah. And then one day the bishop came in to relieve society and he said hello, he's sisters or whatever. This couple, they are divorced. They got divorced. We are not going to be gossiping about them. They are privacy and if they want to share with you as individuals they can. They are both totally worthy to hold temple-recommend interviews. But if you see one of them or the other one or both of them dating again, you are not to judge them. They are good standing in the church. They are just no longer married to each other and are allowed as single people, single adults to do whatever they choose. I thought, wow, it's pretty cool. And then my mom told me that five years later they got remarried. Now, I don't know if that was whatever. But at least they had the opportunity to be a part like they know they needed to be and then work together because they chose to get back together later. But I love the fact that the bishop stood up and said, we are not going to do not give them grief. Right. No, I love that. That's like the best outcome for Bishop Roulette. You know, like it is that I really think that's how, how things should be. You know? Right. We can do that. I did it for another example that I had that I wanted to talk about. So my parents were married for like 25 years. When I was a kid, my mom had a liver problems and stuff like that. And she went, I left for my mission. She eventually needed a liver transplant. My mom had suspected my dad of cheating for a very long time. Right. We could never prove anything and she hung in there because that's what you're supposed to do because it's her job to keep the family together. Yeah, don't get me started on that either. And so she hung in there and she gave it. She gave it her best shock. Her best shock. She did everything she could. And eventually when I left for my mission, my mom got a liver transplant because it got that bad. But then when I returned, we found out that my dad thought that my mom was going to die, made different plans and that he cheated on her. Then they got a divorce. My mom was really felt very, very betrayed. Obviously. Yeah, super betrayed about the whole thing. And she went to go see what she could do to get it canceled. She just got the most vague response back about how she wouldn't receive certain blessings if she got it canceled. They didn't say that she wouldn't be sealed to her children, which was what she was fearing. Right. And what I think was insinuated. I was going to say I kind of implied that. Yeah, I kind of implied that. And my dad ended up marrying the lady he cheated on my mom with. And then she was a member and they were going to get sealed. Now things have happened where they can't get sealed because they aren't as active as they used to be or at least his wife is not. But like my mom got a letter saying that my dad was going to be sealed to this woman. Right. Because that's what they do that. Yeah, exactly. But the way that it works is she doesn't have any say so? No. No. And so like it was a huge thing where I just like so my mom is basically threatened with having to be sealed to this man she felt betrayed by. And at this as far as I know towards end of her life really hated because of that betrayal. Right. But she is still forced to be sealed to this man who has since repented and now is just like so she's kind of stuck with him forever. And that's not fair. That's the way she felt. And that's what that's. Yeah. That was her understanding of the temple ceiling. Yeah, that was her understanding of the temple ceiling and it just wasn't fair. And I think it's like those types of things are things we have to deal with and personally I struggle with that for my mother. That is not the way I was raised with that idea in mind. I was always raised with the and it's mentions that in some of the articles that I read that the temple ceiling only works if you both endure to the end and keep your temple covenants and you have to be worthy to stay sealed in the her after. That's why I was raised. So my mom used to say well if I don't make it at least you'll be sealed to your dad and they'll find somebody to seal him to or they'll just you'll go up this chain. So if your dad and I aren't worthy you can be sealed to your grandparents. So I'm just going I don't like my grandfathers that much. Okay, but the thing is is it was based on your worthiness and your desire to stay married honestly. I've always been taught that God would not force you to stay married or be married to somebody you didn't want. The idea was I mean from that one quote you know you won't be denied any blessings of an eternal family. And so we used to joke about if we couldn't find somebody in this life we'd get assigned to somebody in the last life. And I suppose our heavenly parents would pick out a good husband for me if I he they had to because it kind of looks like they're going to have to. So when I hear about people going oh I'm sealed to an adult or a murderer somebody who abused my kids you know and and then the bishop's going well you don't really need to get unsealed unless you want to get sealed to somebody else. I'm going no I want to get unsealed now that makes no sense to me because the fact that the one person went way off their covenants proves that they're not worthy to stay sealed to you anyway as far as I'm concerned that ceiling is null and void and the only thing it would stop you from doing is being sealed to somebody else. Now Jane are you still sealed to your ex husband? Technically yes. So that makes sense why you have. I haven't bothered because I haven't bothered to find somebody better and I know that he hasn't found anybody either. So of course he hasn't come to church since my youngest was eight and that's over almost 20 years now. So it's been well. So you're right. I got divorced. I didn't worry about that because I knew that he wasn't planning to keep any more covenants and at this point as a nuanced Mormon I'm not keeping some of them that or that people think of his covenants. I don't know. Have to see what happens next. Those types of things make me think about like how righteous are the quote ideal families in the church you know. Probably about his righteous is the rest of us. The thing is is we see most of these families just unless we become friends like us I see your family all over the place. But the ones that we don't see very often we don't know what goes on outside of the church building. No church activities. So we don't know. And yet they're held up to the ideal more so than maybe the single member families or the divorce families. That's true. Yeah. No, I feel that way too because I'm like I've known people where I'm just like or I've heard of other people who are the quote ideal family who behind closed doors are really not great people. I have an aunt and an uncle who when I found out how much they didn't love each other and we're talking nasty behavior toward each other their whole entire lives off and on again married in the temple temple workers. There until they got too old to work in the temple. I asked my mom once. Ew. Why did they stay married? And my mom said well my sister believes that if they can just put up with a crap in this life then the Lord will change them so that they will love each other in the next life. And I just wanted to barf. Like no, I don't think that's how it works. I don't think that's how it works either. But you're right. Anybody who didn't understand what was going on behind the scenes in that family would not know. Right. Because on the outside they were spiraling and tearful. Yeah. Or was that bearing their teeth? I don't know. But yeah, you don't know. Right. No. like that's totally true because I'm like I feel like when it comes to my own family, we we are worthy. I feel like we we deserve to be there even though I don't have the temple marriage even though my husband isn't a member. Personally, I think the fact that he's not a number makes us better people. I think it makes us a more loving, accepting family and because there's no you know us versus them rhetoric within our family. But the thing is the us versus them doctrine inside family lines that they try and spew is super toxic. Well that's what my husband thought was going on in our family. That was I was trying very hard not to but my kids felt some of that not for me I hope but while they still talk to me some guessing not but the thing is is it or if so they've at least forgiven you. Of course the problem with us versus them is that those of us who don't fit the mold assume that we're them and we're not us and we don't belong and that really is upsetting and for children in part-member marriages they are told you are us but your mom or your dad are not right and that can cause a lot of anxiety and depression and stuff with kids. No like I get like my kids get that all the time like my kids get the fact that like daddy is not a member so he's not good you know. He's not righteous. He's not righteous he's not good you know you you need to not be like your dad. Well their dad has a lot of really good qualities that they we would hope that they would emulate. Oh for sure yeah like and so it's it's it's been rough. My my 11 year old has already tapped out because he sees his dad and he hears some of the things that they talk about in church he's like I don't I'm not down for that you know and I don't want to have to sit and listen to it whereas my my nine year old is able to be more nuanced and it's just happy to be sitting with me in the pew. Who knows what it's going to be in a couple more years. Yeah I think it's time for us to kind of wrap up here. Yep. So uh wrap up time. Yes. One of the things that I think that's important to remember is that in the scriptures it says in my father's house there are many mansions which Jane you've told me before that you think that just means that there's different families. There's a place for everyone and it doesn't matter what like their family looks like. That's what I'm hoping. Yeah. That makes more sense to me. For sure and not just the nuclear family 1950s ideal you know I see my family there or at least I hope they are you're working on it. Yeah really and secondly I just want to say to everyone thanks for playing those versus them game but I'm not playing anymore and give them the nice bird. Well here at LDS Ladmouth we like to end our episodes with suggestions of what people can do to make things better. Yeah. So Kim what are some suggestions? Ideally I would love to have everybody be really outspoken like Jane and I here. I know that's not exactly a real possibility for everyone and everyone's comfort levels though I would like for other people to be able to stretch themselves and kind of like step outside their comfort levels because being more outspoken is going to help everybody in the long run. However. However I know that we do have some folks that it's really hard especially for people who are more introverted. I am an extrovert. Now everyone can be an extrovert like Jane and I here. An example for our introvert babes here is when you know that a message in church whether it be over the pulpit or in class is disparaging to someone else you know who doesn't fit the family mold. Go to them right after class or after the meeting to show them you support them and talk with them about how that talk or lessen me them feel. I know it's really hard for some people out there and I've heard a lot of stories in other places where people want to go out and reach out and they just don't and then their friends just feel alone and it would be really great if we could just be able to reach out and help others feel less alone. Right. Yeah. I have another couple of suggestions for introverts. When you are making comments or teaching lessons because yeah they make introverts teach lessons sometimes even if they don't want to. To use inclusive language. Oh that's good. In lessons or in comments and even in conversations one-on-one with people like after class and stuff. If you're an extrovert or feeling a little more feisty when you hear things in lessons you can contradict or point out the us versus them aspect of what was being talked about. You can bring up agency versus force. You can talk about Jesus and how he says to love people. Both extroverts and introverts can talk with the people who don't fit the mold. You can get to know them. You don't make assumptions. That's a big one for everybody. Yes. And we can also share your experience with things that they may be going through and we can also discuss either one-on-one or in classes the difference between doctrine and practices. And my second thing is just share your story in lessons or wherever you can so that people understand you better. So if we see somebody get shut down you can stand up for them. You can make comments. Like I said you can talk to them afterward. You can tell them here on your side. Also you can learn about the different groups of people who don't fit in. Now for introverts and for people who love learning like I do. There are books and podcasts and stuff you can listen to to learn more about. I've been reading a bunch of books. Some of the books I've read are in the process of reading ritual roars, falling upward which discusses first and second stages of faith and life which is really interesting. Living on the edge of inside by what's his name? Oh was it something Kimball? Yeah yeah Christian Kimball. Christian Kim Kubby. I have a bunch of books. I've got the sacredness of questioning everything. I love that. I haven't gotten to that book yet. A life's too short to pretend you're not religious. I love that. And of course one of my favorites. Not written by an LDS author when God would had a wife. Just because I got a plug Heavenly Mother. The podcasts that we love we could mention some the atlas she said it. Podcasts LDS struggles. LDS Disciple. Do you have any other good ones that you listen to? Oh God. I have a few but I think those are like my main go-to's for the moment right now. I love being on the block even though they they have stopped recording a long time ago. It is lovely to go back and listen to them. They were my very first podcast. They were yeah they give me they still give me a lot of hope even if it's like some of the newsy type stuff that's fairly old. Other other podcasts are really good and like an uplifting camera right now. But yeah those are good. So do you have any other ideas? Yeah I think I agree with you in the fact with like especially if you're an extrovert. If like there's somebody like in a lesson who's saying something that's like just really not very nice or inclusive you know like you care and go out there and you can like stop the lesson and it is tracks and correct that person of the hurtful messaging against those families in the war that don't really fit what is being taught. And I think just generally for everyone if your family doesn't fit the nuclear family ideal be vocal and speak up often about it to other ward members and the bishop brick in public and private settings. I know it's scary but nothing will change if we don't share our stories. Others may become less afraid and identify with you. It might be less afraid to speak up because of you. Sharing our stories is how we can fight ignorance and gain empathy from others around us. Nobody should be forced to feel ashamed and pity because their family doesn't fit the ideal mold. All families should be able to qualify for this lustful kingdom. I can't argue with that and if you're listening to this episode if you have any ideas or any experiences that you'd like to share with us about helping those that don't fit the mold fit in with you or how you have been able to fit in, please let us know in the comments. We'd love to hear from you.