Laverne Cox on Messy Dating Stories & Healing from Childhood Trauma

Today, I'm sitting down with the incomparable Le Verne Cox. You know her as the groundbreaking actress who made history as Sophia Berset on Orange is the new black, becoming the first openly transgender person nominated for a primetime Emmy award in acting category. She's also a producer, author, host, advocate, and now with her deeply personal memoir, Transcendent. She's telling her story in her own words. But today, we're talking about something even bigger. Behind all the history-making moments is a woman who has spent her life fighting to define herself on her own terms. We're talking identity, joy, love, dating, fashion, healing, what it means to be seen, and what it takes to keep growing into yourself. So, let's get into it. Because baby, this is Kiki Palmer, and baby, this is Le Verne Cox. No matter what we do in the car, just chilling, a couple M.A.S.I.M. music, sit back and listen. Life loves sex, science, hovering at all, especially the back of money that we keep on. No matter what it is, we can make it make sense. There's nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kids. So grab you a drink and a snack, you a joy, you get into the vibe that only works. You know it's your greatest. This is Kiki, baby, this is Kiki Palmer, yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Starbucks. Fall's most iconic beverage is here. The Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte is back to kick off the season. Order now on the app. Sister! Oh my gosh! And why the hell do you do this every time you help doing me on my own show? This look, oh my gosh, it's not a competition. Babe, you look so freaking exciting. You look so stunning, I love this color and it goes so beautifully with your hair. Now is this Muglair? It is indeed. Because that's you. Down. I wear other designs as well, but I do collect vintage Muglair. This is Ring 1993, which is a really rare to find documentation of this collection because there was no runway show of it, but there are women's wear daily images of this dress. Period! And that beat. I do feel, today I was like, I want to feel like this full bombshell fantasy when I tried on the dress and there was all this cleavage, I was just like, I want to lean into like my Bardo, like full bombshell fantasy, just for me, like there's no men seem to be checking for me. Ah, me either girl. It's for me. I don't know about you, how you feel in the dating world, but it's like, we're texting and it's like, what are we saying really? How do we get into the obligatory relationship where we just say something to each other every day that's random? What does it mean? What is the impact? So when someone can spar and you can be like, okay, and before you know it, we're down some rabbit hole, that is fun. That's fun. So I was talking earlier, I was thinking about, because I'm all about being a better version of LeVern. I'm always about, like, self-improvement, and I was revisiting Renee Brown's definition of love, which I think is so unbelievably amazing. And I think how amazing would it be if with my ex, we could have talked about this, because I shared it with them, of course, and he was like, that's beautiful. And I was like, let's parse it, so it's, so Renee Brown says, we cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable, in powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and honor the spiritual offering of that connection with trust, respect, kindness, and affection, trust, respect, kindness and affection. We could break it down with the guy, there's more, and we could talk about that, and trust, respect, kindness and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it's something we nurture and grow, a connection that could only exist within each individual when it exists within each of them. We can only love others as much as we love ourselves. Hello. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damages the roots from which love grows, love can only survive these injuries when they're acknowledged, healed, and rare, the accountability piece. So like, if you have that, if you have that definition to work with, right, and then there's been a shaming moment or a blaming moment or disrespectful moment, shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, withholding of affection, and withholding of affection is evil, evil, and girl, and it happens. Especially when they love balm and then they like pull it away, it's not funny, but it is. Girl, it's how many of us are dealt with that. But like to be able to have a man who had the capacity to process that with you, I was thinking how amazing would that be, but like, yeah, where are those men? Yeah, you wait, because where is the people that really believe in the compassion that it would take to actually exist in that space, or just the people that the big part of what you just said, or that Brunei said is, you can only love people as much as you love yourself. Where are the people that, one of the first things you said when you sat down in this share was, I'm always on a journey trying to better myself. It's like, where do I find other people that are also on that same path? It's weird, because I put on my list between breakups, like two or three breakups ago. I put on the list, someone engaged in self-improvement and wanting to better himself, and then I did, the next boyfriend, what is that guy? Okay. But was it for a little, was it because it was a trend, or was he really seeming to genuinely be, it was genuine, but there was, there were other issues. There's always something. You know what I mean? And I think like what I realized, he didn't make the book, but maybe that's a good thing. No, a lot of them didn't make the book, girl, yeah. Girl. But this one, oh, should I say this? Say it. We can believe somebody name. I don't know what you're going to say. I think when we went public, one of the ones that went public with, when we went public. Was this the one where people try to get on you about? No, no, no, no, no. That was after. Like I went public and people knew him, I tagged him on Instagram, he was, he, at the time, this was 2017ish, 2016, 2017, and you couldn't, or 2018, one of those years. And on Instagram, you had to, in Instagram stories, you had to have 10,000 followers to do the swipe up. Yeah. And we didn't do that on Instagram anymore. And he was in real estate. So I was like, I'll get you, for your birthday, I'll get you 10,000 followers. So I tagged him. Girl, oh my god. And then she said, so I tagged him. So I tagged him and he got, you know, 25,000 followers. And it was, he was really, he was so cool in so many ways, like I literally met his friends on our second date, which is very strange. And we talked about it and I was like, I was like, it just, a friend of his, what a, I love you. So Tinashe, he has a friend who knows Tinashe. She was doing like a taco Tuesday. I love her. He had our first day with Second of Sunday. He was like, going to his taco Tuesday thing, I know it's our second date, but like, would you want to go with me? I was like, my friends are going to be there. I was like, okay, we're going to meet your friends in the second date, but now it's like, if it's weird, I'll leave. I'm girl. I don't, if something, if something's not working, I'll leave. I'm good. Yeah. I'm very good that way. I love just friends. Yeah. Do you like the friends more than them? I, I, I, I, I loved his friends and what was cool and better about this group of friends. He was, the time he was 28 years old. This is, yeah. But my ex before that, he was like late 30s. All his friends were married with kids. So whenever I hung out with them, it was all about the kids. Right. Yeah. If you're not married and with kids sometimes that married with kids is like, what are we talking about? That, when you're a parent, when you're a parent, your whole life is your kids and that's beautiful and that's wonderful, I, I don't, that's, I love that for you. No, when I don't want to talk about your kids. When I didn't have a kid in my friends with a kid, like, we would be there and everything like that, but it was, it becomes different because I don't have a kid, you know what I mean? Like, even now the friends that I had that had kids, we've become closer again now that I have a kid. Because the point of how old is your brain for now, three, oh, you're in the thick of it. You're in the thick of it. Up until you probably a teenager, really, I feel, at least a leathered way. I feel like when you're a parent, you never, ever stop being in the thick of it. You never stop worrying about your kid. Lorraine, you saw when we were shooting orange together, said, and other people have said this since that having a child is like having your heart outside of your body. For sure. For sure. But it's devastating. It is. It's devastating. Your heart is out in the world and all of these things can happen. It's too much. Well, that's why they say about postpartum. It never ends. You just kind of get used to it because that is such a shock and a trauma to like, know that like, you built someone and you created this child and you don't, you know, you have to let them into the world. It's not really something that you ever really are able to metabolize. You just kind of learn to live with it, you know what I mean? And just trust that you're not effing up in some way. I would be so, I'm never going to have kids, but I would be so, I didn't know. I didn't realize. terrified that I would be like screwing up the kid. I'm sure you haven't had a chance to read my book 'cause you're a book, you're a book. But my childhood was so traumatizing. I would never wanna do that to someone else. And I wouldn't. - I'm gonna say, that's probably why you wouldn't and probably why you're being an amazing mother because you know how you want it to be loved. - Yes. - But it doesn't mean you need to have kids. You know what I'm saying. But I'm just saying this, I'm what you need. - Another living, being responsible for a human being alive. - No pets, a pet alive. - No. - It's the same thing, pets get sick, pets, pets pass away. - It's hard with that. - Oh my God, when I have. - You break up with folks, they take the pet back. - I have friends who lost their pets and it is, I cry with them. It's devastating, it's too much. - It is, it's too much. - Wait a minute, so when it comes to you with the dating, I literally have not even gotten to the pre-show pool of questions because I'm just so into where you're taking us. When you are dating, where do you find your dates? Are you online? Is it only out when you're in usual gatherings? Like how do you. - Men have not approached me in real life the last time. A man approached me in real life. I can't even remember. Oh, actually I do remember. Oh, well, it's two times that come to mind. So when he's 16, when I first moved to LA and I was doing a show called Doubt, there was a background actor from Alabama and I'm from Alabama. - Come on, Alabama. - And he was so inappropriately trying to get to me. And I was just kind of like, he was cute, but I was like, it was a little much. And, but I even, you know, I give him a number, whatever. We went out, girl. It was giving, this was so, what a gagged me was like, how bad, he was a hustler. - Yeah. - And I was just like, so I'm like, this is 2016, I'm 54 now, so I would have been 45 then. - What? - Yes, girl, you have, this is where you have to look forward to. - But how do we know that this is how it'll turn out for me? - Because you're a black girl, you're a black. - And it gets better. Look at women in the 50s. - No, baby. - Black women in their 50s, it's gonna be over for you. - Baby, what I'm looking at right now? 50 fall, this (beep) is crazy. You look so damn good. - God is good. - Ooh, baby. - This is why I know that's right for the fall. - God is good and black is beautiful, how do they look? - No face surgery yet, I'm not opposed, but I'm so scared. I see those like, it just goes botched so fast. - To touch my face and like, if something goes wrong, I don't know, I would freak out. And then you see, like when you see the faceless and you're mummified the day after and everything is swollen, I, that would traumatize me. Anyway, we were, okay. - We were going back to, yeah, yeah. - So dating, so he like, you know, like he goes hard. Anyway, we like decide to go out and girl, he comes and picks me up and in the car on the way to the restaurant, he tells me that his, with his ex girlfriend, basically like he had a domestic chart with his ex that he needed expunge and he needed like, a couple thousand dollars to get it expunge. - He has your smile. - This is in the car ride girl. - On the other thing, there was a moment when I was like, can't, I just stop sign, can I like drop and roll out of the car? I was like, this man is telling me in the car that he has been convicted of domestic violence and I was like, oh, what happened? - Yeah, right, 'cause what's gonna happen here if I don't respond properly? - And then he would, he basically suggested that it was like her fault, I was not buying it. So I was already not, I was like, this is a chop. 'Cause why would you tell me we've just met there. - Like, girl, like, people being just so fast to talk. - No game and then, so then I was like, okay, I'm here. So we get to the restaurant and then we're talking and I don't drive and he was telling me like, oh, you should get this car and it was like a car that he kind of wanted to drive, clearly. I was like, this is our first date and you're trying to hustle me and if you have no game. But the fact that people don't know that someone else can tell when they're being, when they're hustling. - I was a grown-ass woman. I was 44 years old, I'm like, I'm from New York. You think you're got more days. - Come on, I've had hustlers. - Yeah. - I've had hustlers, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What a mess, anyway, so guys can approach me. So, but before I was on the apps, I have, so I haven't dated in two years. I haven't fell a bit. - purposely, it just kind of happened. - Did it happen that you just stuck with it? - It just kind of happened. I realized like a year and a half, and a year and a half in, I was like, I haven't gone on a date. I haven't had sex. I don't wanna have sex. I don't wanna go on a date. - Yeah. - And I just kind of was like, so literally that was six years ago. I met my ex six years ago and we met on Tinder. And so I was swiping and doing all this stuff. I don't know if I can even do that anymore. - Yeah. - I don't have-- - I tried to do dating apps before. It's just like, what are we doing networking? - I don't, raya. - You know, raya. - At that point I was just getting business meetings. - Every, I know. I was so offended. This one guy after our first date, he sends me a proposal or a documentary. (laughing) He, I was like, do you understand how many people wanna get a meeting with me? - Okay. - I don't need to be on raya for meetings. I have meetings. - They need to be on raya for meetings, clearly. - I have meetings. - I was so, I was offended. I was like, what the (beep) (laughing) - You are wasting my time? - No, legitimately, legitimately. It's so crazy how that is. - But it makes good stories though. - It does, it does. - And it's ultimately not that serious. I mean, it is a wasted time and time is precious, but it makes a good story for a podcast. - Okay. - What are you gonna talk about, girl? - I'm gonna say, so crazy I'll pull up. I don't even get to see questions. - I'm gonna say, sorry, girl. I'm like, do you think? - I came in blowing and we was flowing. I was here for it all. What are your big three? Do you know your son, your moon, and your rising? - Oh, I was supposed to look this up. I'm sorry. I know, only know my son. I am, I'm Jim and I. - Jim and I, June May. - May 29th, 1972. I share a birthday with John F. Kennedy. Latoya Jackson. Rebe Jackson. They were born on the same day. Melby. - Melby, I love her. - Greg Salkin. Oh my God. So many people born on day. - You had a long list. That was pretty amazing. I got to find out your rising and your moon. - I'm sorry, I was supposed to look at it. - Or something that would be sexy. - At the end of one time, it was sad. I didn't know that. - I love it at one time. - I think I got it. It was a little step, but I just, you know. - Okay. We'll look into that. Okay. What is your love language? - My love language is touch. - Ooh. We love to be touched. - And I realized that in my last relationship and it was so. They was touching you all the time because they were touching you. - Oh yeah, but it was also his love language. So it was perfect. And it was so healing. He didn't always have the language, but it's his heart, but if I was, when I woke up in his arms and he would wake up with sleep in his eyes, sexy AF, and look around and he would look for me. And then he would put his arm out and I would get in that nook. And it, it was everything, it was, it was everything. - You sat in the scene, I would literally listen to you, tell me a story, did you do it for you for Tristan? Did you do audio book too? - We did an audio book. - Oh baby, I'm about to be listening to that in the car. I can listen to you talk all day. - I appreciate that. - Oh my gosh, yes. - No, the touch was, it was everything and it really, there was something beautifully healing about it too because I didn't, one of the things I will reveal about the books, I didn't grow up with affection in the house, we didn't, we didn't hug, we didn't have no hug. - Not even with your twin brother. - No. - Why would, why would, me and my twin brother hug each other? - You know twin that's supposed to be holding hands so close, you guys weren't even close. - We're close, but like, why would we be holding hands when we're not, we're not being modeled to it by our mother? Like, what, who, like, do you mean? - Yeah, where you're getting it from, it's not something that is normal in your mind, yeah. - No, no, no. - We didn't do that. - No, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood. I have gotten to have a lot of those things in my adult life and that has been really beautiful and really amazing and really healing and that's a lot of what's in the book. I mean, it's, it's a tough read in the beginning for a lot of people, but there are lessons and I took a lot of time to really try to figure out what was going on with me and what was the context and, and, and trying to really like go into how I felt as a kid and what my perspective of it was instead of, and then obviously what people were saying to me about me. - What, what was your perspective as a kid? Because I think in my mind, you know, did you always feel like you knew who you were and you just were explaining it to others or did you, like, so what was that as, as a kid, you know, I'm sure you're being compared to your twin, you know, you're growing up with your mom. What, just take me back to there real quick. I didn't have language for it, but I, I knew I was a girl. I also knew that I was supposed to be a star, that I was put on the planet for something bigger than all of the things that were happening in Mobile, Alabama. I was like, this is tired, these children are tired. - Come on. - I'm supposed to, I don't have to, I have to be, I have to be a star. I have to prepare. This is very early on, like three- four or five years old, five years old, I started begging for dance classes and finally I started sitting dance in third grade. So I had a sense of who I was. I didn't have language for the gender stuff. - Yeah, yeah. - And I was bullied ferociously for it. I was by the other kids, by my teachers. - What? - Oh yeah, my teachers. - The teachers. - Girl, listen to the book, that's too much. - You've got to listen to the book. - Okay. - Teachers, my, all the other kids, my mom, my mother, when they would, I learned not to trust my mom to tell her when the kids were beat me up 'cause she would blame me. She would say, "What are you doing to make them treat you that way and why aren't you fighting back?" I was never. - What about your brother? What your brother? What was your brother? - We're not, he's not a fighter either. Like we, so I'm not, I'm a lover, not a fighter. And I really felt, and I, for a while I felt weird saying this out loud, and now I'm like emboldened, and I'm like, I felt above, dukeying out on the school yard with other kids. And I'm like, I, God didn't put me here to be fighting with stuff that's pathetic, kids are probably gonna end up in jail or dead or whatever, this is, you know, I'm a child, this is a child, this is narrative. But this was like, I don't have time for this. I need to go, I need to be reading, I need to go to the library, I need to be dancing and preparing to kidding in the mindset. Oh, I was so alone, but I had my imagination, I had my dreams, I had the library. I was, I, it was dancing all the time. I had music in my head, I created characters. I always had music and characters, so I danced everywhere. And so I lived in my imagination, I just associated. And I went to the library and I read, and I went to other worlds and found, you know, there were so many wonderful things that you could learn about in the library. When you think about what you were watching or the moments where you did feel, feel seen, I don't know if it would be in a dance class, who are the people or the things that come up into your mind? When I felt seen, when I started taking dance classes, it was my first dance teacher, I'm Jocelyn Brown, what's her name? I was just free. There was just this freedom. Shout out to Jocelyn. And it was so amazing, thank you, Jocelyn. Thank you, Culture and Black and White. It was a program called Culture and Black and White, which is a program for low-income kids in Mobile, Alabama where you get to study, where we got to study the arts. I was studying dance, tap and jazz, to start, and my brother was studying visual arts. My brother was a very sort of prodigious artist. He drew and painted very realistically from an early age-- - You were both art creatives. - Yes. - Incredible. Your mother was your mother and artist, when did you guys get to shoot? - She wasn't, but she wanted to dance when she was a kid, and my grandfather said, "No." And so, when I was like, it took three years, but when I said, "I want to take dance classes," because she was denied, she said yes. And when my teacher said, "You should take that child out of those dance classes, they're gonna make them gay," she didn't do it. - Wait a minute, 'cause that's interesting. For you to have this kind of relationship with your mom where she's bullying you, because she doesn't really understand you, but then she's advocating for you in these small ways, or maybe they weren't small, because obviously dancing was a form of freedom for you. What do you make of that? How do you-- - My mother was a teacher. She's an educator. And so, I think she understood that, this is something that I loved. I wasn't getting in trouble, like the other kids who were getting in trouble. And it gave me goals, it gave me, it just nurtured so much of who I was, and school was that thing too. And so, I think it was just for my mom, it was about education and exposure. She understood that as an educator. I think one of the things about the privileges that I've had in my life, having a mother who's an educator is probably one of the best privileges I've had in my life. - Yeah, my mom's an educator too. I feel very similarly. - See. - You talk about in the book, how you felt like I was a mistake. - Yeah. - Well, how early did you feel those words, or that feeling? - My first memories of having feelings, I felt like a mistake. My first memory is of sex abuse. So that doesn't help, I was two years old. For a long time, I thought I was five. And when I finally told my mother, and we looked at the timeline, I had to have been two. And in my mind, in my mind for years, I blamed myself, and I was like, I was five, and I was like, what did I do? And I thought it was my fault. And then when my mother told me I was two, I had to be two, I was like, there's no way. At five, it wasn't my fault, but it, too, it definitely wasn't my fault. So I would just so, so the shame, sex abuse, abusing children is like the worst thing you can ever do to someone. And it's so disgusting to me. That, um, what is going on in this country? - Who it was? - I told, yeah, I talked to my mom about who it was, and she was very angry, and she was like, why didn't you tell me? I didn't, I didn't trust you. I didn't feel safe with you. I just, I was literally in my thirties when I told her. And so that made me feel like a mistake. My mom telling me and my brother that we were literally a mistake, that she, we were, we were not a planned pregnancy, and that my, um, sperm, sperm donor, not even my father, 'cause I literally met him once, that we were gonna end up in jail, like him if we didn't act right. And we were making her life, she reminded us every day that we were making her life very difficult because she was a single mother, working for jobs, and never had any money. And I think part of the reason I don't want to have kids is that children, I felt like children were in people's lives. I felt like I was ruining this woman's life because I was born, which is a horrible thing to feel about yourself as a child. It's a horrible thing to feel. And I'm really sorry, did you feel that way? Yeah, it is what it is, but I, I don't, yeah. It's like, you know, I'm in this process now, I'm like saying this out loud, I'm like, okay, I don't feel that now. So what's like, how did I, what I understand now is that that narrative that my mother gave to me was the best that she could do. It was a product of her abusive childhood and the limited information that she had, how stressed out she was, and she was repeating intergenerational trauma and intergenerational abuse. And so, bless her heart. I am so lucky and blessed, partly because of her that I've got therapy, that I've got education about how, you know, these, how these things are passed down. Dr. Joy DeGrew, who coined the term post-traumatic slave syndrome talks about how behaviors are passed down. Like, and she gets this really great example of how often parents are like, oh, he's lazy, oh, he's lazy. And how that behavior goes all the way back to slavery because when the slave master would come and ask a mother about her son, oh, how's he doing? How's he working? Oh, he's lazy, he's lazy. And that was about her not wanting her child to be sold away from her. So she would say, oh, he's lazy, he's lazy. And so that just, we kept doing that as a way to protect our child, but then it like, becomes this maladaptive thing, but you can undo that. And you can undo that. And then there's the epigenetic piece, the piece where actually trauma and stress is actually passed down in ourselves. There is actionable data, wonderful research that shows that stress and trauma is passed down epigenetically in ourselves. And so that's a different kind of work to unlearn that, to create new neuropath ways of resilience. But knowing and understanding that, I have so much compassion for my mother. And I think I'm really fabulous. So everything that happened, I really try to live this and it's hard when things are hard and things have not been easy lately. I always try to remind myself, this is happening for me, not to me, this is happening for me, not to me. And it gets real hard when there's a tragedy, when you, when someone has passed away recently, when my mom is going through some stuff, when you're making way less money because of, you know, a fascist regime and things are way more challenging. And, but this is happening for me, not to me. It's for me, it's like I'm not a victim. And this is an opportunity to learn, this is an opportunity for me to maybe pivot because the universe is telling me something, this is happening for me. Meaning there's a lesson. There are new actions that I'm supposed to take and I'm not always, I'm not fully clear about what all of them are now, but I know for sure. It's easy to believe. when things are going well. When there's money then, and all the acclaim, and all this is happening for me, not to me. But when things are not going well, to really internalize that. - What gives you the courage? Speaking to all of these things, and sharing everything that you're sharing your book, because I've thought about this when I've decided to share it in my life, when people are out there judging you. When we're talking about people judging, LGBTQ+ AI community, what allows you the courage to still sit up here and say, "Tell your story," and know that people are going to try to use it to tell you down. What allows you to keep being able to talk your truth? ♪ Baby, this is Kiki Poma, yeah ♪ - You know what just came back into my life like it never left? The Starbucks pumpkin spice latte, and the second I saw it on my Starbucks app, I knew it was just around the corner. The first sip took me right back to that fall feeling, and I remember how much I L-O-V-E this part of the year. I can't wait for the leads to have their whole moment, and the air to finally have some personality to it. When I actually want to be outside, instead of rushing past everything, that's what I'm excited for. It's funny how a walk I've done a hundred times feels brand new just because fall is almost here. That's the thing about fall rituals. They're familiar, in the best way. The iconic Starbucks pumpkin spice latte falls right into that category for me. Same drink, same meat, but somehow it feels like a whole moment every single time it comes back. So let this be your sign to slow down, soak the season in, and grab a Starbucks pumpkin spice latte as fall begins. Celebrate fall with a return of the iconic pumpkin spice latte. Order now on the Starbucks app. Tastes like fall. I think I just found our next family trip and it's Asheville, North Carolina. Yes, September is when the leaves start turning and I am building this entire trip around a porch. I need to find a home on Airbnb with the real porch because I can already picture mornings out there with coffee and evenings watching the mountains change color while my parents pretend they're not getting emotional about it. I'm putting the River Arts District on the list too because watching Glassblow's work is like the kind of thing that my sister will talk about for years. My dad's already asking if Asheville has good barbecue, which yes, obviously that's so locked in. We're also doing the built-more one afternoon. It's this gorgeous, gilded age mansion right outside of the city that makes you feel like you've been transported to Versailles. I wanna watch my parents walk those gardens like kids again. So what I'm saying is, find a place to stay on Airbnb in Asheville this fall. I'm building the whole trip around that porch so we can get that magical home away from home feel and I'm not even sorry about it. I don't know any other way. Like, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna just shrink? And there were a few moments in 2023 when I realized we'd lost the culture. There was, I don't know if you remember their bud light thing when kid rock was shooting bud light cans because they had a trans woman on a bud light can. And then there was the boycott of Target 'cause they had Pride merch. I was like, oh, we've lost the culture. And that year, half the country at Bangender from in care for young people. And I was like, I just remember being despondent. I was shot clean slate that year and after I was done, I was kind of like. - Clean slate with normal layer. - Yes, it was normal layer into Urtuales, which was such so glorious. But I was drained after that. It was super intense at shoot. And afterwards, I was like, okay, that was intense and we've lost the culture. How do I, you know, a person who was deeply invested in the humanity of trans people and LGBTQ plus people. How do I message this? How do I, what's the rhetorical strategy? Especially, you know, there was so much dehumanization. I was like, I'm not debating my humanity with bigots. I'm not, and I'm not gonna concede to like bigoted framing. So it was like, how do I figure this out? I was really challenging, but I just, I took some time. And what the beautiful thing is that like history happened and things happened and it just became really clear empirically. Right, that they, you know, people were sort of talking about, well, you know, children are too young to make decisions about this and they don't know and parents are forcing the idea. And people are saying so many people are saying that parents are forcing their children to be trained. I was like, that is the most ridiculous thing ever. And it completely discounts all of the conservative parents who find themselves with trans kids and how to navigate it. But I never understand that because if that were the case, if people could make somebody anything, well, what about all the heterosexual stuff, y'all pushing? You get what I mean? If you could force somebody to be anything, shouldn't we all be whatever the thing y'all pushed? You can't, you know what I mean? That doesn't really, it doesn't really work that way. Of course, you know what I mean? Of course, but then there was a, forget what state it was. It was, I think it was 20, 2024 maybe, I forget what? But then there was one state that introduced a law banning gender firm in care of ages 26. And so it was like, hmm, this was never just about the children. And then of course, this current regime has stated that they want to ban gender firm in care not just for children, but for everyone. And in the state of Florida, for example, similar to anti-abortion laws, where they would basically make getting an abortion so difficult, you couldn't do it. And they passed a law in Florida saying that you can only get gender firm in care as an adult from a doctor not a nurse practitioner, when 80% of trans people in Florida get their gender firm in care from nurse practitioners, 80%. So effectively, that bans gender firm in care for adults. There's all kinds of ways, right? What do we make of this? When we go from oranges to new black, I mean, not only when that show hit was it a hit, because it's a great short book, because of all the representation from the stories they get to get centered. I mean, that's where we first met you. We go from that time where everybody, we're like, yes, we're going to see this, we're going to learn about this, we get it today. And then from there, we are to where we are now. It's like we've got, we were so many, we went so many steps ahead in that moment in time. And it was so incredible, like we're speaking to you, 10 years straight on the cover of every magazine. And everybody wants you to do this. You need to be that, you need to be the, and then now we're here in this plate. What do you make of it? How did you feel going through that transition? Like, is it all simply just political? Is it all just simply who's in that house? That makes that so strong. - It's a lot of things. It's a lot of things. - First of all, whenever a minority group all of a sudden gets more visibility or gets more rights, there's backlash. We can look, and I think history is so important to think about, and I often have been thinking about reconstruction after the Civil War. - Meaning, reconstruction. After the Civil War, there was a reconstruction, you were there, because it only lasted about 10 years. And so there was a period in this country when all of a sudden Black men, not Black women, but Black men had the right to vote, and all of a sudden an unprecedented number of Black men were in Congress, in the United States Congress, and had rights. And then when the North withdrew from the South, then we had the formation of the KKK, and they began to terrorize Black folks, and implement Jim Crow laws to make it more difficult for Black people to vote and have access to voting. And we are fully rendered second-class citizens again, and that representation goes away in Congress. And so it's a backlash. It was these, and what really should have happened, I think, after the Civil War, is that every single insurrectionist, because these were people who succeeded-- - Tell me the insurrectionists. - Insurrectionists, people who basically were treasonists, that the Confederacy succeeded from the Union. They were like, we don't want to be a part of the United States anymore, because we want these slaves. And it got-- it become untenable for the United States of America to conjone slavery. The rest of the world was looking at us like we were crazy. Even though the fortunes of this country, North and South were built on the slave labor of Black people, it was a bad look. It was just was not cute anymore, and it had to go. It was just one of-- it had to go. But the southerners, the Confederates, were like, no, so we're going to succeed from the Union. And so a war happens. And the North won the war, but didn't really prosecute any of the insurrectionists, any of the people who had betrayed the country, and allowed them to stay in power, and gave them reparations for their lost slave labor. They got reparations, right? - Yes, yes. - So-- - But a business. - That-- - I understand. - That-- thinking about that piece, historically, and why? Why? They-- from the very first moments of the beginning of this country, when the Constitution was being written by slave owners, so many concessions were being made in that Constitution to accommodate the South and the owning of slaves, and. There's so many things that three-fifths compromise, the one drop rule when we, I'm Isabella Wilkinson's book cast, which is like a must read and a reread. If you read the book, she, I, I got Hitler, Hitler learned how he was going to do what he was going to do based on the apartheid system of the United States. And Hitler thought what we were doing was to extreme. Hitler thought our apartheid system was to extreme. And part of that is when you read her book, we understand that in the way they made Jewish people second-class citizens had to do with how much Jewish blood you had in you. If you were one third, one fourth, whatever. But in the United States, because of child slavery, we had the one drop rule. I believe we are the only country. I have, I have not Googled this. But one of, one of the very few countries that had the one drop rule, if you had one drop of Negro blood, then you were black because they, they wanted the labor. And Hitler thought that was like, that's a lot. And this is in the Constitution. And it's all, it's in the Constitution to give the slave states outsized power to make us three-fifths of, of a human being was about counting us in the census so they could have more representations in the House of Representatives, so they could get their agenda passed, which is diabolical. And there's so many other things that are in our Constitution. Ellie Mistal, who writes for the nation, has a few lovely books about this. But he talks about how, in 1965, the United States, for the very first time, was a multi-racial democracy for the first time in 1965 with the passage of the Voting Rights Act. For then, we were not a multi-racial democracy. We just weren't. Black people didn't have full access to the franchise. Women did, until, um, was it, I'm 19-20, um, or 1919, I think, something, whatever, 1920, the 19th Amendment. And now the Voting Rights Act has been gutted by the Supreme Court. That's, that's happened. That, it's effectively. So it's kind of basically, we're repeating the same patterns over and over again. Well, the long way to answer your question is, whenever there's progress, the people in power who want to keep that power, do everything they can to make sure that this marginalized group does not have access to power. And I also think that like the, a few things, there's the trans piece, but there's also, Trump doesn't happen with that Obama. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Obama. There's a wonderful book that, like, people don't talk enough about it, it's called, um, most racial, post-racial, I think, um, that was written right after, um, Trump won. And they had data that, um, they looked at people who had voted, um, for Obama and voted for Trump. And what? The biggest piece of data for me in that book is that before Barack Obama, there were remnants, because if you were, there were Dixie Crats, so there were, um, Southern Democrats who were very conservative, who were, you know, Confederate to believe in segregation, but they still voted Democrat, um, even after the realignment that happened around, um, 1968 with Nixon. But when Barack Obama comes into office, people who did necessarily associate the Democratic Party with Black people, yeah, associated Democratic Party with Black people and voted accordingly. And there were people so outraged that a black man, a black man would become president of the United States, that someone like Trump coming along with all of his rhetoric. When you look at the, I would get, look back, check my data. The white turnout in 2016 was unprecedented. Like it was like white people hadn't turned out like that. White people had, who had voted for years, voted in record numbers in 2016. Hillary Clinton did not exactly inspire the black vote and inspired just the multiracial coalition that she, you know, needed for a lot of different reasons, sexism. But also there's the neoliberal agenda that had failed so many people that, and the establishment of politics of Clinton, um, was not working for people. People were, after the financial crisis of, um, of 2008, 2009, there was this wonderful quote after getting said it, FDR, when we had our, when the stock market crashed and there began the Great Depression in 1929, FDR bailed out the people. Obama, and we love, I love, we love Obama. I really love Michelle, but Obama bailed out the banks. And so many citizens have never recovered from that. And people who are desperate will try anything. And so a lot of people, um, went with him, some, a lot of it, I just, I love my, um, my democratic socialist and my leftist folks, you know, I'm one of you, but like we can't just reduce it to class when this is so white supremacist and racist. I have to know what your conversations would like, because you came online and you were talking about how you ended up dating the Trumps, you found yourself all in love with Trump's supporter. What were your conversations like? Discover Pandora talisman, a new collection designed to help you express every side of who you are because the most powerful statement you can make is being yourself. I'm a Virgo, capital V, which means I notice everything. I remember everything and I have opinions about everything, but I keep most of them in a very organized mental filing gambling. That's the sign. Analytical on the inside, polished on the outside and deeply particular about what we put on our bodies. 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Shop new styles in store or online at Pandora.net. This episode is supported by FX's The Drop, a snowfall saga, Wanda and Leon are back but this time they're chasing a different kind of legacy. As West Coast rap begins to take over 90s Los Angeles, Wanda is betting on a new generation of artists ready to make a name for themselves in hip-hop, but in a city where every opportunity comes with a price, they'll have to decide what they're willing to risk to leave their mark. FX is The Drop, premieres September 8th on FX and Hulu. I cannot tell you how much makeup I have bought that looked right in the store and then betrayed me in natural light. The audacity. I get home, blend it out, step outside and suddenly I'm looking casky ready. New shades off and not a single person say anything. Sephora, fix that for me. They have the best brands all in one place with a range of shades, coverage levels and finishes so you're not just guessing and hoping for the best. Right now I'm wearing my favorite hourglass, vanish, airbrush, full coverage, long wear concealer for natural finish. That's long lasting. Okay, it is my perfect match. Can't you tell? Get a close up look. Plus, their beauty advisers and shade matching tools take the guesswork out entirely in store or online. So no more settling, no more close enough, visit Sephora to find your match. What did you, was it turned off from the debates? You know, what got you guys into it? How did you know what, you know what I mean? How did you, with such different views so we're seeing? So over talking about him, um, yeah, sorry to bring it up, but I just started thinking the best out. It is. It is. It's like how to say how does this happen? And the reason I actually talked about it publicly was because I was like, I thought it was, it would be an interesting conversation, how does this happen? And I thought people would understand that Laverne is very left-wing, like, what, reach the left? So how with this happened and how does it happen? And it, but you seem quite nuanced too, so I'm just, yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm interested. He, okay. First of all, when I met him, so I was living in LA, but I was going back and forth because I was shooting a show. And so I was on Tinder. We matched on Tinder in the fall of 2019, we're unable to get together because of scheduling. The pandemic happens and he just starts messaging me up. Greg, late, almost daily. I was in LA, he was in New York. And he seemed really cool and he was consistent. Consistency is one of the things I look for. And we were just having fun conversations. He was sexy AF. Like, he-- Yeah, the girl is fine. Ugh. Why do? Why do? What type of white do you find? Why do you find six wine? Six wine. Six wine. Six wine. Six wine. He works out six days a week. No steroids, though. He, like, he gets his pump on. Boy, man, fine. Are we talking Bruno? Are we talking blonde? He's blonde. On her blue eyes. Boy, man. But like, he has a boyish, a little more boyish when I met him. He was twenty six when we met. A little more boyish in person than in his photos. In his photos, he was giving man. But he had a boyish quality in person. But like, Jack's but not too Jack. Yeah. We're not on the swallies. Because I-- I don't like swallies. No shade. No shade. It's not my thing. It was-- it was perfection. It was like a very elevated-- It was-- He's bulkier than a swimmer's build. But it's lean. He's lean as well. It depends. He bulks up in the winter. He's-- he's very-- Yeah. He works out his workouts. And just-- I mean-- So the attraction was the part. The physical attraction was there. Was incredible. And the physical chemistry was amazing. And that's hard to find, especially as a trans woman. Being a trans woman and having compatibility sexually is very difficult. And when I met him, I was not-- It was not a boyfriend screening. I was not looking for a boyfriend. I don't know if you have a different screening for boyfriend versus like-- Well, did we just take a minute? Yeah. You know, because I didn't even live in New York. Jump off is too funny. I mean-- [LAUGHS] You little cams, actually, little cams. Jump. But if it's in the bones and they're beans, like the latest three-inch rims, jumping off the jackpot with the champs, you be real. Live good. East Coast, West Coast, worldwide. I'm a player, this is the little same one. If you're bound to let me hear you say, we're-- [LAUGHS] We love little cams. We do love little cams. So I-- yeah. I jump off, you know. Just talking, you know, a friend with benefits. Literally, I didn't even live in New York. So I was like, when I would come to New York, I would love to have like, you know, a gentleman. Yeah. But it wasn't going to be serious. But we met. And we just clicked. And the conversation was great. And the tenderness, love language was amazing. The sex was like-- [LAUGHS] So I was-- Oh. I was 2016. I was-- 2020, I'm sorry. So this is six years ago. I'm 50, forward now. So I was 48. So I thought my days of like having sex three or four times a night were done. I was like-- That sounds incredible. I thought I was done with all that. Apparently I wasn't. Turns you nuts, everything but loose girl. Yes, hair like that. Oh, yes. And he lived in a messy hair. Girl. Girl. So yes. Yes. So I'm getting the connection. Four times a night. So amazing physical connection. He was really charming and funny. He made me laugh. And so it was really light in the beginning. There were little. I remember one time. It was so funny. Because we met July 1st, 2020. And I didn't remember this, but he told me. Finally, like, he didn't tell me he was a cop till November. So we meet in July. He tells me he's a cop in November. And he said-- Because apparently I say, we need to do fun in these police. Because I'm in 2020. We were all trying to do fun in the police. Definitely. And reallocate resources is still-- We definitely need to abolishize. Anyway. So I like apparently say we need to do fun in the police on our first meeting. And he was like, I'm definitely not going to tell her now. And it's interesting thinking about-- Well, he was hiding himself. Correct. And he told me, when he said-- when he finally told me, he said, I don't feel safe telling people. And when we met on Tinder, like, I don't expect him to tell me. Because he doesn't know me from a can of paint. And then when we meet, like, it's just going to go somewhere. And when he realized we were making a real connection, that's when he told me. And when he said he didn't feel safe, I got it. He told me a story about when he was on social media. Like, how soon when he had arrested, like, found him and threatened his family. And so he can't be on social media. And just so I was like, OK, I got that. And I had a no cop policy. Because just some bad experiences that had dating cops, honestly. Really bad. And it just seemed like something's wrong there. So I just was like, let's not do that. And then I had already fallen for him. And we already had this connection. And man, it made me feel good all over. Do you know the Stephanie Mills song? I feel good. I feel good all over. It was giving that. It was giving all that. So I was like, OK, let me see if I can work with this. Yeah. And what's interesting to me about what I've learned about conservative men through this and just talk here and mostly trans women and other women. But mostly trans women who've dated conservative men is that they can compartmentalize. There are so many conservative men who have who are dating black women, who are dating a lot Latina women while supporting ICE. So there's a compartmentalization that happens there. And there's a compartmentalization that happens there. - Absolutely not. - Em F.R. - Em F.R. - And he was angry and then he got so angry that like man rage, being in the watch I given him, he gives, girl and he leaves and then the fog for the apartment anyway, to get his car he forgot, he when he, 'cause he gave me through the keys with the fog, he couldn't get into the garage 'cause he didn't have the fog, so he had to come back. - And how the so weird when that happens, we were like, "Ahh!" - And then we like have a talk and then I start feeling bad for him and then I also in retrospect didn't feel fully safe, I felt scared. It was weird but I eventually would be kind of got back together but it was tricky from like October to March of the next year and he turned 30 in February, Mrs. Birthday. And I was hosting the red carpet on the Sag Awards. It was the second year in a row I missed Mrs. Birthday and I felt awful but I had to work. It can't change the Sag Awards 'cause my boyfriend is birthday. So I was like, "Why don't after a word season "let's do like a vacation and celebrate?" So last week of March, we went to Miami and that whole trip was the straw that both the camel's back and you got to read about that 'cause girl got this. That was-- - And y'all have never spoken to anybody. - No, we have, so that was a hot mess and I didn't wanna break up with the mom, but we were still there. Like two days before we was supposed to leave I was like, "This is over." But like, it was gonna be awkward. So I waited till we got back to New York. Literally, I flew back to New York and then I had to go and then I had a day and then I had to fight L.A. to prep for a movie. - Yeah. - And so I was gone to L.A. and I was with my action coach. I was like, "I need to break up with this man." And 'cause I couldn't focus and so like I did it, I did it over the phone, which is not ideal, but I did. And then when I break up with someone I have a 30 day no contact rule just to like-- - Just to get it done. - Exactly. And he was so upset. And so like after the 30 days he reached out and he was obviously wasn't the best way to break up with someone. He felt abandoned blah, blah, blah. And then we talked for like a few more weeks and then I blocked him and then I didn't hear from him until like then there was a moment before the election when we talked just about something. I haven't blocked and I asked something political came, I've really been banned politically. He was blocked again and then when I went viral talking about us and I didn't think he would even ever find out about it, algorithms, different algorithms, we were talking. And it went mega viral. And apparently after he had told a few friends, he had to look four or five friends about me. But after we broke up the therapist said he had seen like once or twice. Said he could see said if we ever got back together he would tell all his friends about us. And so the therapist suggested, well even though you're not together why don't you tell your friends now. And so apparently he told 19 of his friends. - 19 is such a specific number. - That's what he told me. And so when it goes viral that I dated a Republican in New York City police officer, his phone blew up. - Like his phone blew up and his mother was, his mother was gonna come to the show girl. - What do you mean your mother was gonna come to the show? - His mother was like, 'cause I was doing a solo show called Girl How Did I Get Here. And I was gonna be talking about the relationship in the show. - Oh yes. And his mother was gonna come to the show. - This is what he tells me. It's literally a day after the show. I get a text from a number I don't recognize. I was like, what is this, and he's like this is, just that be it's his name in the book. I'm gonna talk. It's not his real name. - He's a Zepi. I'm like, just. - Just Zepi, I thought he's Italian American. - He's Italian American. And it's actually because of the opera composer, Zepi, they already, I love opera. And I thought it'd be funny. And it is funny, just Zepi. Anyway, the day after the show, the day after the show, I get a text. And he's like, we need to talk. And that was just like (laughs) And Girl, he tells me all this. That he told the 19 friends that his mom was upset. She was like, he can mentor not to come to the show. What does she say about my son? - Girl. - Did he feel exploited? Did he do, he like, you didn't really love me? Did he go into like, how could you do like? - He, he, he, yeah. - Treat me like a Taylor Swift song, you know? - He did. He felt like what he felt was a sacred connection, a spiritual connection. So he thought, he did so many. - This is amazing. - He thought of me as his soulmate. And he felt like, I cheapen that. He felt to reduce someone to their political, affiliation in their career. He was like, who does that? I'm like, a lot of people do that. And I was voting a show. - And it's your life. - And in retrospect. In retrospect, it was part of a whole, I had done a whole live and then I clipped that section from the live. But, you know, I talked about his blonde hair and blue eyes and I finally was, I objectified him. And there was a level of dehumanization unconsciously that I did do, that I should hold myself accountable for. So that's unfortunate. I never wanted to humanize anyone. - Yeah. - But I also thought what I thought, particularly in 2025, I thought it would be an interesting story to see how a very leftist black trans woman could date a Republican cop who voted for Trump three times and but the what the public saw was internalized anti-blackness. - Yes, they thought because of, I mentioned the blonde hair and blue eye, they thought that I was secretly maga, which I understand now. I just, I never imagined anyone would think that about me, but I get it now. We've now discovered lots of people here. - Mike, I have a curiosity of what is it like? - But I'm not maga. I never voted for him. I voted for Hillary in 2016. I voted for Bernie in 2020 and I voted for Kamala in 2024. Lots of times people don't understand nuanced though, unfortunately, so living in spaces of contradiction and still being truthful to yourself or authentic, I find that we're in an era where people don't understand that multiple things can be true, especially when it pertains to people that disagree with them. No one can imagine loving or caring or having any type of compatibility with someone they don't-- - And you go online, and if you go online, people, I mean, you see the comments, how could you date someone who, you know, you're dating your oppressor, you dating someone who votes against your interest, all the things, and I get it, I understand it. And I, you know, I think some of it is generational. And this is, and I met him. If I had met him in 2025, it would have been different. There was a climate. What I, I mean, the post was cringe. I can see that it was cringe AF in retrospect. And in 2025, but 2025, people were like, Trump was wreaking havoc. People were, people did not want to hear it. Like, people did not want to hear it. And I get that and I understand that. I really do. And it was tone deaf. And the nuance, of course, of my situation was lost. And-- - On the anti-- - But I'm also, I do want to say, I'm Genex. I'm from a different generation. I'm an Arnold Schwarzenegger dated Maria Shriver, I think. - Yes, yes. - And they were, he was a Republican, she was a Democrat. And I think, like, I learned in dating to, like, not talk about politics early, because you would probably ruin the vibe. - Yeah, they used to say, don't talk about religion. Don't talk about politics. - Like, not, because it just, you know, 'cause most, honestly, most of the men that I have dated, I found out that they're conservative. And for whatever reason, a lot of conservative men, not all, but a lot of them, like, trans women. So this is what I wanted to get to and ask about, is, 'cause, you know, obviously, I saw the post, I follow you, and I was intrigued by the storyline more than anything, but I was seeing, of course, you would get that backlash, especially from the community. Black folks are like, wait a minute, wait a minute. - Trans folks. - Since I, trans folks. So I was curious, you know, do you date black men, or black men very, like, what is your, what has been your experience as a trans woman with dating black men? - Oh, girl, that's what I was curious about, when I saw a woman, I was like, well, what, 'cause people always say, you should date, usually, well, who's dating? You don't know who's interested in me. - So people that are assumed, 'cause my, 'cause the one boyfriend I went public with was white. And so they were like, oh, of course she's, I remember when I posted him, of course she's dating a white man, and it's not surprising. And then, like, I, then I talk about another boyfriend, who's white, so they're like, oh, but my experience dating black men has been, I don't say this just about black men. Like, all men, all men are problematic of all races, but what I will say in my 54 years, I have gone on dates with men of every race. Black, I mean, obviously I'm from Mobile, I'm from the first men I had sex with and dated were black men. And I love black men. And my, like, there's a part of me that would love to give my fans, we can't date for our fans, so. I'd like to give my fans this, like, black love fantasy, if some man showed up, like, properly, I remember this one, black guy had gone out with, he was so fine. He was so fine. And he had a PhD in, like, mathematics, he was educated, I was like, Okay, yes, we had a great, like, two dates and I gave it up on the second date. And it was cute. I was, I was like, I could do this. Ghosted. Ghosted. I can't make him call me back. And I was like, oh, this isn't. And then, oh my god, there's another one. These are the stories I did make the book. There's another black guy. When it first moved to L.A. and I was just, you know, I was on the ass, but like, kind of secretly because I was in an open relationship. So I had, you know, who are relationships so unique? Only when I've been in would do it again. But it made me this like fine. Oh my god. Fine black man, like, personal trainer. He just moved to L.A. from like DC. I can't, like, six, three, like waves on swim, like, body. So they hate him. Like, just body. And it was, you know, it was like a little thing, whatever. Right? It was, it was, I wasn't trying to date him. But after we, you know, it had some fun. We're literally lying in your neck. And he's like, yeah, I'm looking for a sugar mom. I was like, how is that going for you? Come on. I was like, I was like, good luck with that. Do I look like Beyonce? And not saying that about Beyonce is like, I'm saying it's the relationship. That song. Honestly with that, with, with the, with the Republican next, I was like, I really understood what Beyonce was singing about. I was like, there was one time, I was like, I was so turned out, I was like, well, he does need a car. I did not do it. I didn't do it. I've never, I've never, I'm about him was short set. Girl, I was like, he needs a car. I've never flown a man out. I generally don't, I don't pay for generous. I don't pay. And when we win on vacations, I like a certain kind of accommodation. And I can't expect, and I've made more money than all the, you know, past three boyfriends. I like a certain kind of villa, certain guy. And I can't expect him to pay for that. So I'm like, I'm going on vacation. This is the accommodation. If you want to join me, get your ticket, and join me. But I have to say all of my last three boyfriends have all contributed to the villa. The, the Republican next paid half. I was like, I didn't expect it because I was like, you know, the villa is $100,000. It was not $100,000. But, but then all of them paid for every meal, every, whatever, you know, those, so these are the kinds of men. And I'm like, I'm a feminist. I'm very anti-patriarchal. But I also, these are the contradictions of life. I, you know, if a man is going Dutch with me on a first date, that's going to be our last date. And that's f'd up. Maybe, but whatever. It is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, lot, like, what was the, where were we were? We were talking about, I was just, oh, black men. Yeah. So I, so yes, I've had, I've had situation shift with black men over the years, but they were never really boyfriend worthy. They never like, try to be my boyfriend. I do write about an African guy who lived on my block, um, who we were, you know, that's a good story. So I love, I love black men. Yeah. Yeah. Insanely physically attracted to black men. Yeah. Oh, there's this black man on, oh, this is, I can't say, he's so smart. Oh, he's smart. He's, I'll have to, I'll show you his, um, Instagram page. He's so smart. And he's so fine. It's like, he's woke and fine. And he's like, he's woke and fine. Smart. I heard about some, do you mention any rappers in the book, Transcendence, any rappers, any actors? There have been, there are two rappers who, um, who, one, when I first kind of came on the scene, he would very kind of overtly hit on, like, just really excited to see me every time he saw me. And I was just kind of like, he's like, and it was a, and he was cute and I was open to it. And then like, there was a period when I just kept running into him. And I remember we were at, um, so house and he was in a meeting. And then all of that energy that he was always excited about, it just dissipated. Oh, I think it was, I think it was honestly, I wasn't going anywhere. I was prox, I mean, he may have started dating someone. I think because this particular one, all his dating stuff was, we knew, um, anywhere. Yeah. And, and, and I heard we were great behind that he likes the girls, um, because, because we know, I think I know even with the NDAs, the girls now. And then there was another rapper who, who threw it, I didn't write about this in the book. He threw it hard in front of me. It's so a house here. And I have witnesses. I mean, take my asses. So how's my girlfriends were like, girl, he wants you when he asked for my, he asked for my number and everybody, every woman was throwing their pee words at this man. So I was just like, I'm not in part of it too. I was at the, this is like 2015. So I was like, do I really want to date this man? He's more famous than me. I don't want to be like known for like dating this guy. And he probably never date me openly. And I am not going to sleep with some rapper on the, I'm lavering cogs. I'm not going to happen. So I was just, he was fine. He's fine. Oh, and he, I can't wait to find out who it is. His game was so like, girl, his game was amazing. It was like, I was like, oh, and he looked good back then too. That's good now. And then he was like, can I get your number? And I was like, if you really want it, you can find it. At hell, he going to do that, girl. Girl, he could DM me. He could like, there are so many when you are, what? When you're a famous rapper, if you really, like, you can't make it easy for him. If you, if girl, I'm too frank. Oh, sure, honey. But one, two, two, you got it. When everybody, everybody wants to this man, like he, like everybody, I'm not making it easy. I'm not making it easy. I'm like, if you really want, you made it a game. So that we never got further because he couldn't find him. I never got further. And rejection is God's protection. Girl, the thing can come out. I dodge the bullet. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have slept. He would have had to take me out and treat me right. And he wouldn't have done that. He wouldn't have done that. I can't wait to get the information on that. Okay, I have to leave so soon. It always happens. I'm, I talk too much. No, but you are someone. How about we do it again? I'm down because you are so much fun. I just love it. Can I tell you how proud I am of you, how inspired I am by you, and how I'm not get you how you've diversified your brand, the branding piece of it. You're so yourself, but then you're really an art actor. You're, you can sing. Like you, you're so talented. And it's just, it's really, really wonderful. And I'm like, I think it's, the parents must be amazing because you can't do this without really good parents. But look at you though, you've been able to do everything you've done regardless of whatever support you did or didn't have. My mother's amazing. Like with whatever her shortcomings, my mother is an amazing, remarkable, resilient woman. She is. And thought like all of us, like all of us. Amen. I love you. I love you too. Oh my gosh. I love you. Today Laverne reminds us that freedom doesn't always look like a headline or a history-making moment. Sometimes it looks like releasing shame, choosing yourself, loving out loud, laughing, getting dressed because it makes you feel good, speaking your truth, even when it's hard. Freedom isn't about having a perfect life. It's about finally living your life as yourself. And if there's one thing Laverne shows us, it's that the freedom we come is from being ourselves, not someone else. It's never having to hide who you are again. That's the bravest thing any of us can do. Anyway, I'll see you next time. Baby, this is Kiki Poe. Oh yeah!