Lavender Marriage Rethinking Love, Intimacy, and Modern Relationships

(upbeat music) - Hello, welcome to the Love Me of Eat podcast sponsored by Fem Farma. I'm Jerry DPNO, founder and CEO. Thank you for joining us as we discuss all aspects of women's healthcare. Please note, this podcast is for educational purposes only, always refer to your healthcare practitioner for personal advice. (upbeat music) - Hello, Dr. Juliana Hauser, and welcome back to the Love Me of Eat podcast. I have my frequent guest, Dr. Juliana Hauser, who is a psychologist and sex therapist and so much more. For those of you that haven't met Dr. Juliana, perhaps you can share a little bit about your background. - Yes, I am a twice licensed therapist and I come from Lexington, Kentucky and have an expertise in sexuality, menopause, and all things relationships. - And Dr. Juliana is also a Medical Advisory Council member to Fem Farma Consumer Healthcare. And for those of you that would like to find her to potentially consult with her, you can find her on her website, site, Dr. Juliana.com. So today, we're gonna talk about a very interesting and very timely topic, which is lavender marriages. Now let's define what that means. So Dr. Juliana, what is a lavender marriage? - You know, I always love it when I get to hear the topics that we're gonna be talking about. And I love it that you do such a variety and pay attention to both the big topics and the trends of what people are talking about. And lavender marriages is one of them. And it started off that you and I were having this as always, I love our off recording conversations. And you and I were talking, and I made a flip comment about lavender marriages. And so there's a variance of what it's considered now and the origin of it. But the basic definition is a relationship that it's mixed gender and it is mixed sexual orientations. And most typically it is a gay man and a heterosexual woman. But there's other varieties of it as well. And it began that the origins of lavender marriage began when it really wasn't safe for men to be out and with being gay and either the woman knew this and it was like Don't Ask Don't Tell. Or they didn't realize it and they never understood that was the case, but it was a way for a man to be in the conventional traditional marriage and have his orientation hidden or secretive either from society or from his spouse. And now it is something that you see. There's even like two TikTok stars. And one is Jen Hamilton and the other is Chris Olsen and they're talking about having a lavender marriage. They both are saying that they were cheated on by their significant partners. And Chris jokingly proposed to her on TikTok and she accepted. And it's, you know, that we're gonna get into it. But really the trend now is women, cis-hat women are saying they're not so sure they want to partner with cis-hat men and they think that gay men are the bomb and they would be a much better partner than what is out there for them to choose from. So there's the two origin stories of lavender marriage. - Yeah, and I know that these marriages did exist historically and we know that the term lavender at least came from a description of the gay community, right? So that was really the color. So hence the term lavender marriages. But it's more than just the Hollywood phenomenon. I know that we talk about some of the characteristics of these relationships that make them feel safer or secure in some ways and for individuals that have chosen to partner in a lavender marriage. Some of the same characteristics apply as they do in a heterosexual marriage. But they're probably substantially more that help to make the couple feel more secure in that type of relationship. And we'll talk more about that and yes, depending upon your religious beliefs or your culture or ethnicity, individuals may have felt that they had to enter into what was considered to be a traditional partnered relationship between a man and a woman. And often that was in defiance of their true self. And that's unfortunate because then there must have been the issue of if one party was aware and the other one wasn't. So is there a sense of betrayal? Is there a sense of the loss of agency? So there are a lot of dynamics. - Thank goodness we have evolved. I know we have far to go and still a lot to protect. But I love knowing those stories and have friends also who are in the situations and just heartbreaking to witness that authenticity of who you are is also a privilege and not everyone has the same access to that. And so it's, you know, being in an quote lavender marriage, especially back in the day was a way to have safety. And, you know, we don't know. He's like the Hollywood marriages. There's a whole lot that were public after the fact came to light afterwards that it was, they both knew. They understood what was going on and it's served everyone and others that wasn't the case. And I certainly know people in my life how they weren't aware and the betrayal of that felt really difficult. But it was also a self-patrial to the individual who wasn't able to live their authentic life safely either. And it's interesting to have it transition now to, like we were thinking about authenticity and choice and that being a privilege to have that transition to where we are now. It's interesting. You and I both love the concept of agency. And I love the concept of agency being in a relationship of being able to create a relationship or a marriage that works for you and doesn't have to be exactly what is told either by religion or by tradition, whether it's your own family tradition or what, you know, what you thought you're going to be. But really creating relationships that work for you and that make your life better and whatever that means whether it's financial so you can get health insurance or it is safety so that you have emotional safety and someone who you feel is at your emotional equal. There's a lot of reasons to go the non-traditional route. I'd love there to be a different word than lavender marriage right now 'cause I think the transition raises a bit of the origin that I think is important for us to remember. But the concept of doing on your own now is something I'm highly believe in. - Now when we think about the lavender marriage, there obviously are some emotional and relationship issues that one needs to take into consideration. So there's emotional, there is the romantic versus the friendship. Let's explore that a little bit. - I'm asked this question in heterosexual relationships all the time. Can it be a good relationship if you're not having sex? And how do we position sex in the definition of a good marriage and a good relationship? And my answer is always, it just depends which is such an unsatisfying answer to give, but it's I think a powerful one because there are many people who partner and do not have a sexual relationship regardless of what their orientation is. It's not possible or it's not a priority and they're very happy and in a very fulfilled relationship. So if that can happen in an outward facing traditional relationship, then why does that have to be the foundation of a relationship that is non-traditional? And again, I don't love always using traditional non-traditional, but in a relationship that isn't a typical pairing of orientations. And I, when I've asked people who are in those relationships, there is a couple that their social media is all about being an lavender marriage. And they answer questions and they talk about it and they kiss. And so they will show themselves kissing. And when they've been asked, well, you all don't have sex. How are you all being affectionate? They say, well, we don't share everything, but we love showing that we care about each other in a very deep way. And that is so profoundly important to us to have in the way that we define a sexual connection. And to me, sexual connection is everything from holding hands to penetrative sex and everything in between. And so in a way they are in a sexual relationship because if you are being affectionate with each other, you could put that on the sexual continuum. But I'm not sure, but the way that they imply it is that they're not doing anything beyond kissing with each other and they have an agreement outside of that. but they are pairing. The agreement that they have goes far and beyond what their sexual relationship is to. It's all about emotions and finances and being a good partner and being a good friend. And I think that's crucial. And so in some ways, if having a sexual relationship that includes more in the continuum isn't a high priority, then this kind of pairing takes one more thing off of the list that you have to have compatibility on. When you think about intimacy and the way I think about intimacy is not necessarily physical intimacy in terms of having sex or even kissing or hugging or showing signs of affection, right? When I think about intimacy, I think about is this the person that you want to share your deepest and darkest thoughts. Is this the person that is there for you? We've referred to your right or die. So is this your right or die? That's, to me, that is intimacy. And that intimacy can be formed with members of the same sex. It can be formed with members of the opposite sex. And let's face it, if you have a best friend or a soulmate and that person doesn't share the same sexual orientation, that's really cool. And that's why at least the way I see partnering in that fashion, I think it's very plausible to partner in that fashion, if you have all of those other requirements satisfied, because you would do the same in a heterosexual relationship. Yes, I had a friend once come to me and she was half joking, but half serious. And she said, when I look at the, we had done the list exercise, when I look at my list of who I, who is really going to be my sole partner in life, my best friend, a female who is married to a man, who she had no sexual feeling towards, is everything on my list. I just don't want to have sex with her. And she's like, what does that mean? Is my soulmate my best friend? And I'm not meant to have a relationship with a heterosexual man, or is he not out there? And can this exist in a man everything that I'm looking for and wanting? And I think that does go to what you're talking about with intimacy is that there's just so many levels and layers to it. And I think ultimately, when we're looking at this trend of lavender marriages currently, and in the current kind of definition of it, I think what it really is showing us is what women are missing, and what they're asking for in relationships, and assuming half jokingly, but half serious, that a gay man would have it, because the stereotype, although it's not accurate 100% of the time, is that a gay man is going to be a whole lot more emotionally available, and emotionally evolved, and the stereotype is that a heterosexual man isn't. And it's certainly that isn't true on either sides of it 100%. But the stereotypes come from a place that a lot of women who have friends that are gay men, that they seem to celebrate women without as much iron and problems, and that they automatically, again, as a stereotype to a degree, have a respect for what women do in the world, and have an understanding of what it's like to be a marginalized group, whereas traditionally heterosexual cis men don't have that experience. And just wanting to have that commonality, the women are wanting that. And in general, I think all of that is encapsulated in a lot of women don't think that men like women, meaning like they secretly hate women, and that their behavior is rooted in this disdain for women, even if they may love their wife, but their behavior isn't really supporting it, and there's an inheritance in gay men that they love women. And so just, I think women in general just wanted to be liked, liked by a man, and know what that feels like. And sadly, that is a problem that we're not seeing nearly as much as women are wanting it. And when I can go back and like the history of marriage, because I think about that a lot in my couple's work of like, what does the point of marriage, a lot changed in what women want and what they need when we had the means to become financially independent when we didn't need men for housing, for lineage, for land, for our livelihood, when we can provide that for ourselves, then we start looking for marriage to be all these other things, and that we want. And I think we have done a very good job teaching CISET men how to evolve into that list. I see a lot more in the younger generations, but it's a lot, I do a lot of teaching on forties on up to CISET men about how to show up and show that you like women, particularly the person that you're partnered with, but also just in general. I think that makes a big difference too. You know, you mentioned something that really resonates with me and its equity. And finding that equity 50 years ago is probably very challenging, right? So women were relegated to very stereotypically female roles, if you couldn't call it that, but relegated to roles of caregiver, stay at home, even if they had aspirations to do something different. And over time, that has we have evolved. Society, I believe, is evolving, although I wonder these days how much we've really evolved. And so looking for a partner who actually can be equitable in the relationship is happily equitable. Exactly. Exactly. So yes, when your partner can celebrate your success authentically, that to me is more equitable. Yeah, I agree. And I think there's this fantasy that in 11th or a marriage that equity comes back, that when you are both in a marginalized group, maybe you have a fair shot for both of you to have equity and being authentic to in a lot of places, let alone just having fairness of health insurance access. And you know, beyond the logistics of it or being able to afford a mortgage or rent where you can't do it when you're on your own, but just providing safety for each other on a lot of levels. To me, I'm all for it. I'm all for relationships that bring people to a happier, more fulfilled, equitable place, because those are the people who are making better decisions in the world. And we need more of that. I agree with you 150%. And when you think about the characteristics of any relationship, and you know this as a professional, when you think about the characteristics of any relationship, you want to look at someone who regards you as their very best friend and partner. You can trust them. You feel safe with them. You have shared interests. It's okay to have different interests, but at least some shared interests. So finding that person, even if they are not your sexual partner, if they have a different sexual partner, it's okay, because they meet all the other criteria that are important in forming a partnership in bonding together, in potentially raising a child or children together, if that's what you choose to do. And so when we think about this, is it much less complicated to find that person? So let's talk about how that impacts family dynamics, because let's face it, individuals who are in and will use lavender for the moment. I also want to talk about mixed relationships, because there is a difference between mixed and lavender. But how does that impact the family dynamic? So you choose to have a child together. Yeah, and that certainly is growing. That decision, people who want to have children, need to have a different gender, but that's not their orientation they want it genetically to be theirs. Through my work, just what I see, and then the research shows that it is about the stability and safety in the home more than any other detail that makes a difference in a child's life. And believe me, all sides have tried to discern as orientation or is a two-parent family, and the studies just don't back that. And the ones that are really viewed as good research base, they don't find it. And if there is someone identified as a mother in the family, then it's typically the mother or the primary caregivers level of happiness and contentment that is the most correlated of how the kids are doing and and how they do long-term. And so if you have one person. in that home. That is the safe and secure caregiver for the family. All the other details just fall away. And I know there's other people who disagree with that. I think you and I are the same page of we would champion anyone who chooses to be a parent and is a good one. It doesn't matter. All the other parts of it too. That's my opinion. They just haven't we we have been witnessed to just years and years of marriages, gay marriages, same gender marriages with families and the kids are great and fine. And so we just even know and don't really that just isn't related. And so if you mix it up, I just I again if your needs are met, it to me what does it matter what the details are and to me it's nobody else's business. And I think it's just a shame that we've we've changed it in that way. I wrote a list out of everything we expect of our of a marriage right now. Sexual partner, best friend, co parent, economic partner, roommate, emotional component, adventure partner, family member, caregiver, and lover. And there's more. But I was like I was just kind of going through this. I was like that is such a that's a lot. And like hit out of the park with every single one of those roles is it's really a miracle at this point. And and so if you can find ease with even half of those roles with somebody, what a beautiful partnership you've had, what genders or what orientations or any of that. If people can answer like that, can you imagine if we had if we had the freedom to choose who's really right for us instead of what society has said is right, can you imagine how much better our lives would be in our communities would be our children would be if we were able to partner better and given that freedom from a very young age and modeled that. And perhaps we would produce the divorce rate because that's so when you think about it these marriages between heterosexual persons that are considered the norm if there's such a thing and 50% end in divorce over 50. And that is and that is staggering. These are people that made promises to one another and what are the reasons. And so when you talk about incompatibility, if incompatibility is one of the key features to your point wouldn't it be much better if we're a person of the same sexual orientation or even if they were of a different orientation but they met all the other criteria they are your right or die they are the best person you can imagine when you wake up in the morning that's the person you want to have coffee with and it's the person you want to kiss good night irrespective of whether you're having sexual intercourse wouldn't that be wonderful yes yeah that's so that is I guess that's the best possible scenario but then there's this other scenario we need to we need to talk about that and that is relationships that should have been lavender but end up devolving because one partner really needs something different and perhaps we can dive into what that does to the relationship so the trail the dishonesty if there is dishonesty so and we talk a lot about agency so what does that do to one's agency? you know it's I in the work that I do a fair cheating you know whatever word you want to put to it are a large part of of my work and I've seen all sides of it the yes the actual sex part of the cheating or the if it's an emotional affair with without sex happening betrayal is the biggest problem it's it's more than the details for a lot of them or at least eventually get to that place of you didn't have my best interest at heart I wasn't considered in this situation are two big themes that have to be repaired in this big rupture and sometimes that repair is pretty easily and sometimes it doesn't repair at all and it takes both parties to want to do that I often go back to like my position isn't that the person who cheated is always the quote bad one and you know or you know the behavior of betrayal is a very negative behavior but oftentimes there is a lack of ability to be truthful whether it's self-induced and the person could have said and could have done a lot more practically didn't do it or didn't feel like they could didn't have the skill set to have it come forward with it and and and and end up choosing or falling into this kind of betrayal instead of doing the bigger harder thing but I I go back to this kind of caveat of authenticity is a privilege and not everyone has that the same access to that authenticity whether sexual orientation or it's unhappiness some of the hardest marriages that are falling apart that I've been a part of are the ones who actually don't have something big like that to point to is just they no longer work and they won't that long list that I gave some big players on it just weren't compatible anymore so what do you do and you know some people's answer is you know polyamory or ethical nominogamy and I have quite a few clients that are in that category by choice and this will be how I often start my my counseling sessions which is like hey we're gonna take out there's no room right now in the solution aspect of this that involves what everything should be and what we've been told by everything the way through this whether you stay together or you don't is to stand in agency both of you which means you both have to stand in the truth of who you are and have the bravery to share that with the other person and if you don't know how to do that if you're the one that's betrayed and done all this secretive then the you your job besides repair is to learn how to be truthful and that is a skill for a lot of adults that they have to learn and some of it is character but a lot of it is is learning that when you have learned it's not safe to be truthful about who you are and what you want then you don't learn the skill of doing it and surviving and being okay and again a lot of people learn quickly in life and young in life that it's not okay who they are and that falls away I think in our marriages you don't just automatically and frankly I'm not sure you really know how truthful somebody is until you've been with them a long time and and I'm not sure when you meet somebody you can tell when they're a liar and that can become clearly but if you haven't experienced somebody you can think they are and not know as well or somebody can see themselves as a very honest person until they're really tested and again I'll go back to it's just it's a privilege in a lot of ways be authentic and it's a skill I love the expression the truth and who you are and and I do believe in the authenticity aspect with the person that you claim to care about even if that is in what you perceive to be the best possible lavender marriage same sex relationship whatever but those are those are fundamentals and as someone has lived through and not presently because I'm with my very best friend who is my husband but having had an experience with someone who wasn't truthful it's pretty it can be pretty devastating to find out that you are in a relationship with a liar it's awful and and I have had the same experience and I've actually had it with two different people that was in significant relationships with and it was tested with my own theory I'm like yeah it's not everyone knows how to be honest and not everybody has the skill of that and that doesn't matter when you're hurting and and you're just left with what is truthful about any of this you when when you learn that somebody can lie about these big things then you learn they can lie about everything and it changes your way in the world too so I don't diminish the pain of it and and I have experienced it and it took a lot of work for me to learn how to trust myself again in my own judgment and and to trust other people it's world shattering like you it's it changes like how you look at the world and how the world works when you realize somebody can lie to your face repeatedly and in the context of intimacy and not necessarily sexual intimacy so it also has a significant impact on the way in which you will treat intimacy sharing your deepest darkest thoughts and and in you know being the best of yourself and also showing the worst of yourself because that that is part of the intimacy equation and if you have been lied to cheated betrayed in the end. in significant ways, learning to trust that intimacy, that relationship that involves intimacy. Again, not sexual intimacy, necessarily, but emotional intimacy with another person is something you, and you can rebound. I'm, you know, evidence of that, your evidence of that. So it, it can happen. But not without work. Yeah. Oh, it's a lot of work. And, and the work is in the concept of vulnerability. The work is in the concept of self trust. The work is in knowing you're going to be okay, even if someone treats you terribly. And that can be really difficult. It can be. And, and it's also why I say that that there's a lot of work, like self, self work that can only be done when you get into another relationship that part, part of trusting again is having to take that leap. And that can be some of the hardest parts of a relationship is taking that first step after you've had felt betrayed in it. And there's a lot of research right now and it's really vernacular of like a dismissive avoidant person. Somebody who doesn't have the skill to really, they will go to such lengths to avoid feeling uncomfortable and not care at all what it does. And they've not even able to consider somebody else's feelings and what that means. And then that is self preservation at all costs. And what that does to somebody afterwards people, like some studies are showing is one of the most damaging relationships to be in. This is somebody like that, which makes me again, go back to, it's a skill. Authenticity is a skill. And everyone has different access to that and exposure to what that means to. And your authenticity really changes when you've been the one who's been betrayed. So when we think about some key takeaways in terms of lavender marriages, what are the key takeaways for people listening in? You know what? Do what feels right for you and truly who cares what people think of, who you are partnered with, if you and especially in your home and in your life, if you feel happy and seen and supported and safe and all that list of things of the role of your partner, then it is nobody else's business and just do what makes you happy. And I don't mean a recklessly happy. I mean, like in those private moments, do you feel content with your life because of the person that you have with it? And are they making your life better? That's the never one takeaway is I think we need to get rid of the word traditional and anything that falls underneath that. I think we have proven traditional, doesn't work. And we don't need to do position everything that's not traditional as non-traditional. It is to me, is it work or does it not work? Is it working for you or does it not work for you? And I think if you can be curious about that and be open to how it is defined after you throw away what didn't work, then there's so many possibilities. And a lavender may or may not be for you. Having sex with the person that you are with may be very important to you. So that's not going to happen. Or maybe you have a different roommate, then you have who your sexual partner is and you have multiple people that are fulfilling different needs. There's a growing trend in the retirement community of not living with your person, whether it's staying married, but just not living the same house anymore, or dating and not getting married in your 70s and 80s. All of that is so exciting to me to hear that we are getting to change that. So I say do it on your own, do what you want, find your authenticity and be somebody that others can be authentic to as well. There is reciprocity and authenticity and relationships and you want to give and receive that. You know, I even felt awkward calling this lavender marriages because by putting a label on it, it's defying the UBU. I mean, that really, it's whoever, it's who, who are you? What makes you psychologically and physically feel fulfilled and happy? Because let's face it, if you're in a relationship, whether it's with a person of the same sex or the opposite sex, if it's not right, it does impact family, your psychological and physical health. So UBU, figure out what makes you happy and fulfilled. And if that's someone of the same sex, go there. And if it's someone of the opposite sex, but they're not your sexual partner, that's cool too. Yes. And again, it's a reckless, it's not to say that your reckless, what is reckless is doing something that others expect you to do, but it's not you. Yes. And I, and I, I said there too with people, you know, and I'm not, again, like I, I know the damage of, and how hard divorce is that I have gone through that. I'm not saying that I'm a proponent for that as well. But I also find it very sad when I'm with people and they are, they choose misery and, and they choose it because of traditional values. And again, it's not the grass is greener, divorce is very hard also, but have grown it more and more unclear as to why someone would choose that. I mean, I, I intellectually know why, but gosh, life is short. And if you didn't partner well, or if the relationship has changed or something that isn't fulfilling, then, then there, there are so many options. And the other part that I do, like I will often transition my couple's work. If it's clear the relationship is not going to work and isn't a good one, then I switch it to, instead of saving the marriage to having a divorce with dignity, you can transit just like we're talking about lavender marriages and doing things differently. You can divorce and still be friends, but you don't have to just scourge the village as a part of things. And if people didn't have to go to betrayal in order to find the truth of who they are or what they need, then that would be so much more likely to happen. Great advice. Great advice. Dr. Juliana Hauser. Thank you. Once again, we're being my guest. You can hear more of Dr. Juliana Hauser by listening to the FEMF, via Vita podcast. Visit our website at FEMFarma.com. And you'll see in the tab the podcast list and we have many with Dr. Juliana. They're all fabulous. So once again, thank you. Thank you to our guests for listening in and love me Avita. For the love me Avita podcast comes from FEMFarma. We talk a lot on this show about maintaining a vibrant life at every stage. And that includes your intimate health. Me Avita personal lubricant and moisturizer is formulated to address dryness and thinning skin made without hormones or harsh chemicals. It's about reclaiming your confidence and comfort on your own terms. Here's the science backed solution trusted by women everywhere. Find your relief at FEMFarma.com. Thank you for joining us on the love me Avita podcast. Love me Avita means love my life. And that is a mantra we should all live by. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and remember to follow us on social media and on FEMFarma.com. Thank you and be well.