Laurel's Story | "Birth Mother" with Writer Kay Oyegun (506)

On today's episode of that was us, we're diving into season 5, episode 6, birth month. This episode uncovers the long buried story of Randall's birth mother, Laurel Randall and Beth's journey to New Orleans reveals an inherited grief, unfinished love, and through high as retelling of his love story with Laurel Randall releases the pain he's carried his entire life. Sally, Mandy, how's it going? How are you? It's a special episode. It's a really beautiful episode of television. We're going to get a chance later on in this episode to talk to the writer director, which really happens for an episode of television, right? Kay Oyego, who is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite people who's been with our show from beginning to end. Probably the beginning. Not to be one of everybody's, she's so special. She's absolutely wonderful and sort of like, this episode, because it's one of those things that I don't think a lot of people saw coming because if Randall is functioning as audience with regards to his story, like everybody knows that Randall's mom died after childbirth or whatnot. You know, his dad took him to the, was overwhelmed because he was using his well, took him to the fire station, and that's when life begins. Yes. But at the beginning of this season, we learned at the end of episode one of the season. Yeah, it's five oh one. We see, we got to love, we got to love a good, hard, deep breath from death into black out. Do you know what I'm saying? It's just like, you're down. No, I'm not. Yeah. And you're like, oh snap crackle pop. That is right. That is right. Yes. Thank you very much. And this episode opens with Beth and Randall in New Orleans. Open. So it's kind of like a direct jump from their conversation and episode five, oh five with high. Yeah. Where he's like, you know, I would love to show you where she lived and what she loved, like here in New Orleans. Yeah. And they kind of are like, what's stopping us? Let's make it happen. I also have to say just on the personal note, I don't know how you guys feel. It's one of my favorite cities in the United States. Oh, same. Period. I mean, it doesn't, there's no place that has the same sort of historical significance, pride in culture, music, architecture, food, dance, like it has its own unique stamp unlike any other city in the country. The only major city in the country that I have never been to. What? Can you believe it? I'm about to. It feels like I should have lived there for five or six years. Correct. Okay. Can we go there? Let's go there together. Yes. Christopher James Sullivan. I know. What's your middle name? Joseph. That was close. Christopher Joseph. Christopher Joseph Sullivan. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It's crazy to me. It's your city. It is your city. It is your city, bro. I know. Like we need to go on just like a foodie big. I know. I know. One of the great foodie places. Oh. Yeah. Maybe the, in the country, I think. Quite possibly. Maybe we do a live show there. Yeah. Let's see how this one goes. Well, the first one always was great. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Spoiler alert. The first one went great. Yeah. It was amazing. Amazing. No, that truly is amazing to me. I know. I know. It shocks me too. It shocks me too. And honestly, one of the great sadnesses was because we'd already gone so many different places during the course of the show, right? Yeah. Whether it's Vietnam, DC, for young, Randall to visit Howard University, Los Vegas for us. New York. New York, etc. Like, we'd go on a NOLA. Pittsburgh. We didn't go to Pittsburgh. We wanted to go to Philadelphia. We never actually did. We didn't go to Philadelphia. Yeah. Well, the first two were already one. The first two were wonderful. I also pitched Dan the idea of the Pearson's having a family vacation. I'm like, look, modern family, they went to Hawaii. Why can't we go to Hawaii? It's not a bad idea. It's not a bad idea. I think the closest thing that came to that was Kates was the pool. Wedding. Yeah. Pasha. Pasha Robles. Yeah. I mean, sure. It was fun. But I was like, no, no. We need like a Pearson family, like the quintessential family vacation. I'm like, yeah. The Grand Canyon. Like Niagara Falls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Cat skills. But the part that we didn't get a chance to go to New Orleans because we were in the middle of COVID. So we had to shoot outside of California for outside of LA for New Orleans. It all worked out. It all worked out. It all worked out. It was all great. Just wish we could have gone to that wonderful city. Of course. Who wants to start? How do we. So this episode opens with Beth and Randall and then recounting the last time they were here for their Fifth Anniversary. That's right. They had absence. They had a good time. They had a great time. They made sweet love for. Six hours. She said five and he's like, excuse me. Don't short shrift. Yeah, boy. Yeah. Which is impressive. But also a necessary. Is that too long? It's too long. It feels like. It's the right amount of time. 90 minutes? Yeah. I want to watch your movie. Give me a fist bump. Give me a fist bump. You know what I mean? Like. I'm not mad at me. Like, six hours feels like. Like death might have had to go into the hospital. Yeah, I agree. You know what you'll make sure everything is. Yeah, I understand what I'm saying. I understand what I'm saying. I mean, we knew R&B were special. We have a good time. We have a good time. Anyhow. Anyhow. They go to visit high. And he basically welcomes them in and says, this house, this land was your mother's. And now it is yours. Which again is just sort of like, wow, I can't. Like what Randall must be trying to wrap his head around in this moment. Like so much information, right? Tom and Tom. And he basically starts to tell her the story of his mother. That she was a Du Bois. And they were a very distinguished family. Yeah. And like all of this was theirs. That on the bank, you know. And we go back to the flashbacks. And it's similar what you said, so in terms of like the population of this is us from like TV history. Like, she McBride. Yeah. Um, is. I said, she, she a child. A child. A child. I made this thing. Please don't forgive me if I mispronounce you name. Because I know you're from Chicago. But I don't think you say a child. I think you say. Chai, biscuits and gravy, anyway. Mr. McBride. Uh, he had a show on the UPN that was like a big deal for a minute and then went away. Because he was like this historical butler time traveling. It was a really big deal because like black people like us, is this the story we need to be telling? And then as like somebody in the industry is like, hey man, it jobs a job. And you're trying to find the difference between like what? What's it? Chai. Um, for Chicago. Chai time. Um, and so, but, but he's somebody who's been a staple. Khalida Smith, who plays, uh, Laurel's mom was on the Bernie Mac show. Oh, wow. Then her aunt is a famous, uh, uh, Juilliard woman, Lisa Gay Hamilton, who won her, uh, Emmy for the practice. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. So there's like all these people that are populating. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty, pretty cool. And you get this sense that, uh, Laurel is a bit of a fish out of water within her own family. Yeah. Like there is an observed and, uh, proper way of representing this family. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That she hears to a certain degree. To a certain degree, but when mom and dad like turned their head to brother Jackson, right? I think so. Jackson. Yeah. Um, was in on it. Right. And also like kind of her like guardian was like, you go do you. Yeah. I can, you know, maintain my peace and queues here and sort of cover for you as best I can. Yeah. Cause she would love to go visit her favorite aunt, um, who's played by Lisa Gay, who was also a similar kindred spirit. Like when I see you, I see someone, some people like to dot their eyes and cross their teeth before they do anything else. And other people like to just dive in, you know, to life, feed first and just their head first and just see what happens. And she's like, how do you know? Cause I'm the same way. Yeah. Right. So she's got somebody in her life who gets her, well, everybody else is sort of trying to observe convention. Right. Um, through the course of of this relationship, we also, this is one thing that always gets me and it gets me because it's real and it's, it's emblematic and it's seen on TV and film a lot because her relationship with her brother is a beautiful one and he protects her. Even though he doesn't listen to the same music as her. He listens to Mehalia Jackson and she's looking at things that are more secular, et cetera. And then he goes off to the war to fight. And then the two dudes in uniform at the door, classic, every time. Yeah. And it's every time because it's real and you know, like it's, it's not good. You don't have to say anything. I think I did army wives and we had to do that like a few times when we show and every time we did, I was like, ah, yeah. Right? Because her brother was her dude. She had two people. She had her brother and a aunt. Yeah. And now she's lost one of her people. Right? I think she didn't go and has like another conversation with her aunt about, sorry, this is a weird question. As I caught myself, do you guys say aunt or aunt? Yes. Correct. What do you say? Usually aunt. Ant. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I would make the choice as Randall to say aunt as well. Right. Because I, he was raised by white people. Yes. And I find that white people say aunt and I say aunt. Even though aunt, it looks like how it is aunt. It should be aunt. But my. White family members who are from the east coast. They say oh yeah, you want to get real black. Sometimes you say hey, I love it. There's options. There's options. I was that's St. Louis. I was that's made there. Maybe St. Louis. I was working with a first day D.D. the other day and they were blowing in smoke for this commercial thing with Jigger and she said that we're wafting the smoke and I said excuse me. I said what was that word again? She said wafting. I was like that's one way that's one way of saying it. Yeah, I'm sorry. Do you go rock thing? Do we eat a wafel? Huh? I mean, the English language is so hard to learn. It is a very difficult language. It doesn't make any sense. Oh, there's no consistency whatsoever. I apologize for the digression. Um, but so what happens ultimately like she spends time with her aunt Aunt Lord have mercy aunt. She calls her Aunt May. Aunt May has a farmer's market. She sells her vegetables at the farmer's market, etc. And uh, no, no, sorry, jumped ahead of myself. It's trying to help her relieve her grief. She doesn't know how to do it. And this is sort of an interesting thing in terms of the introduction of ritual and how you can give yourself some sort of formalized process and outlet of like having that grief and it was about going into the water. Sometimes I just go into the water and I let it out, right? She says something that I was like that's it. That's everything right there. She said God can take away the pain, but you have to let it go. Hmm. Which I was like that's it. Like that's it. Whenever however you formulate that in your personal experience, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And it's beautiful too because you see that the water and these two women are connected when she's the the young, youngest version. She's about to go for I was about to go for swim. You want to come with me and you see her out in the water with her on holding her up in the water. And this is I'm sure you guys are vaguely familiar. Black women, hair, water, it's a thing. Sure. It's a thing. It's a reason why oftentimes they try to stay out of the water because when I go into this water, this means hours of stuff that I have to do, especially if you are accustomed in a family like the Du Bois of maintaining straight hair as an idea of a standardized method of showing beauty and wealth. And that's why when she goes to the water when it comes back, we see old girl with her hair just like out. And then the hot comb and like, I'm gonna tell you something. It's what I see my little cousins who girls have to get their hair done. I'm like, I'm so glad I'm a dude because if I need to, I can just cut this crap off and just start over again. It's a whole thing. So she goes back into the water and you hear her really, she sort of yells and screams for the first time. And there's a lightness that I think she's able to attain by virtual of allowing that scream to happen. Next thing we know we see them is at the farmer's market. Is this what it happens? And we see the first Trumps in the water. Is that happened first? Yeah, that happens because he my timeline is all mixed up because I divided it initially and then it was just like it all because hi is telling the story. Yeah, it sort of all blends together between the past and present. I got you. I got you. What so but what are you right? We see her again as like Jennifer version like out in the water. Young Laurel. Young Laurel enjoying the water, what have you. And now we know we have this Vietnamese cat who has come from Vietnam because they said that New Orleans the temper, the environment is very similar. So there's a big Vietnamese population there. And so he's doing this fisherman thing. Doing this thing. And he sees someone in the water and he thinks that he hears them screaming. Maybe she's drowning. Yeah, so my man, let me tell you, like if you're going to fall in love with the Vietnamese man, I was like, I get it. My man took off his shirt and he's like, I'm going. I'm going in there. I'm going to save Captain save him right now. Goes in there. And she's like, what are you doing? I'm not drowning. I'm not drowning. And he's like, I'm trying to help you out. You're thrashed and around screaming in the water. What's the person supposed to say? Yeah, I'm saying like I pardon me for jumping to conclude. Yeah. More that was us after the short break. This episode is brought to you by article. If you listen to this show, then you are well aware and if you watch this show, if you watch the show, you are very well aware that all of this furniture is article article has made it easy for us to to design the space for the podcast and they can make it easy for you to set up a little kind of long-lasting home with a kind of curated vibe. 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So our vision for the future is a world where all food is 100% real. And they are committed to making products with way less sugar and simple, real ingredients. But they'll never make anything that doesn't truly taste delicious. I can attest. We all can attest to it. Everything unreal makes is fair-trade certified, gluten-free, non-GMO, and kosher. All right? Unreal. Unreal. Unreal. You can also find unreal products anywhere, cravings, hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. As a special offer for our listeners, visit unrealsnacks.com/twu to get two dollars off a bag of unreal terms and conditions applied. Next thing we see them at the farmer's market. And this, if you clock Lisa Gay Hamilton's face when they see each other, because they see each other for the first, like, outside of the water. And it's sort of like this, like, oh, I like what I see. And I like what I see, too. And Lisa Gay is like, huh? Like what do you know what I'm saying? She's helping. Here we go. She had the best breakfast. So, so Laurel goes over and she says, hey, you're the guy from the boat. And then I think she understands like he doesn't speak English, right? And so it's this beautiful people I love when people have to work to communicate. Yeah. And like just still down. Yeah. Just the very like core of what they're trying to communicate. Yeah. One of the best nights Rachel and I have ever had together as a couple. I had a buddy. We were in Rome. We were there by ourselves. And my body says, you should meet up with my cousin and his girlfriend. We said great. We meet up with his, we on Ron Vespas. We meet up with his cousin and his girlfriend. Yeah. Neither one of them speak any English. He speaks Italian. She speaks Spanish. She's Spanish. Okay. So he is speaking Italian to her. She is speaking to me in Spanish, which I speak enough of to get and we ate pizza and ate tiramisu and drank wine for like five hours, rode around the city to different spots. This is great. And just it took us, it took us 20, 30 minutes to get through two or three sentences. Yeah. And nobody cared. And it was just what it was going to be. And it was just like the most romantic, like bizarre pairing of people. I love that. But I love that. The tension, right? Yeah. You have to work for it. You got to work for it, man. And when it's, when it's worth working through, it doesn't matter. So you see them working through, like she said, I wasn't drowning. She does a whole thing about, oh no, she does the whole thing about cooking. She's like, - I can't care about that. - She's like, "Bye, bye, bye, bye." You know, we die. And so he just says, simply, he's like, "Well, I cook." - You eat. - You eat. And the next thing we see is them, I don't know if they was gonna do it like a fireside, eat out by the lake, but I say, that's how we gonna do it. And it's just like they're dancing and the vibe, and it's just like, "Oh, I'm falling in love." This makes sense, it feels good. Now, unbeknownst to us, it seems as if like, - Unbeknownst? - Unbeknownst. - Unbeknownst, unbeknownst, how do you say where? - I do Benounced. - I do Benounced. - You do Benounced. - Benounced. - You do Benounced. - All right, all right, moving on, there it is. - Glad that was good. - There's a lot of them. - I'm saying we're on this kiss. - Yes, we are. - Yes, we are. - Stick with it, this is good. I think this is gonna be come into shape. - Unbeknownst. (laughing) - To us, Laurel has a boyfriend. - Yeah, she has a boyfriend. - In this segment of potato patata. - Marcus. - Is it Marcus? Something like that. - Marshall, I had Mar, I had the Mar, I had the Mar. You got, you had a nice Mar. And Mar, the Mar. Marshall went to Laurel's father and they worked together at the bank. And he's gonna propose to her. - He's gonna propose, but like it's funny because I think he was it before the proposal or after you let me know. Like we see Marshall one time. He seems like a good young man. - Yes. - You say about a square as he can be. And there's no chemistry. - Chemistry at all whatsoever. And like, it, the side is like, we see them like in bed. We see high and Laurel in bed together. And it's just like, she's tells him for the first time in Vietnamese, like, I love you. And he says it back to her and she's like, what's that mean? He goes, I love you too. And it's like, okay. - Yeah. - So those two things are happening at the same time. Next thing, you know, she comes home. Oh, dad, she's like, where have you been? You like, you know, my studies, I got to keep up with stuff. - My girlfriend's house. - Yeah, you know, she's like, yeah, well, Marshall says he hasn't seen much of you either. You know, he got a promotion at the bank and he asked for your hand in marriage. And I said, yes. And so if he comes over tonight and he proposes, I expect you to say yes, right? So there's not options, which I think the writers necessarily had to do because she's in a rock and a hard place. - Yeah. - If she stays now, because she goes to high and says, look, I got to go, right? If I stay here, I'm going to live a life fundamentally that's not mine. It's his, and I don't want it. And I want my life, basically. - So let's leave together. - So let's go. And he's like, I got my parents here, you know, I have an obligation, like, I can't really leave them, but you can stay with me. And she's like, nah, I can't have my cake and need it to in this situation. So they have to leave each other's lives, right? And it's funny, because in the midst of all this, like you said, Mandy, where, like, high is telling Randall and Beth the whole story. He's like, so that's when he met my dad. Randall's all good on the past part, but he's like, I need to know, like, how, like, two things, like, how did she die? Like, if it didn't happen in this particular session, and now that she lived, or whatnot, why didn't she find me? - I don't think I'm fine, yeah, right? So. - Yeah, you're offended. You're like, I'm not, look, I wasn't looking for the notebook, like a love story. I'm glad she had that, but like, let's get to the real meat of it. Yeah, so, so he says, like, so that's where she met my dad and everything like that, but that's what I need to know. And so why didn't she reach out to me? He goes, because she went to jail. And you see, like, Randall's sort of like something that never even went through his head as a possibility, right? It was about sort of like his neglect that he felt from her, not anything that she could have possibly endured that would have led to her absence, right? - Sure. - And then it's sort of like, he settled in because he said, Randall, this is, it's not the notebook. Like, let me tell you what happened, right? So, like, almost, like, after she's revived, they take her to the hospital, you know? And she's recovering, but even in the midst of the recovering, the police presence is there. The murmurs from the nurses, like, well, that child is probably good, glad that he doesn't have to deal with this woman as a mother, et cetera, like the sort of, what she was saying, she said this before, shame. There's the pity, but like, the idea, like, the conclusions that we automatically jump to about who someone is, because what they are going through at a present, right? - We feel like they've always been there. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, she, they do take her to jail. And then what is the reason why she can't stay even in Pittsburgh that ultimately she has to go - To full. - Yeah, yeah, the prisons were overcrowded, so she was sent to California. And so, she goes to jail account in California. - Yeah, which we still do now. Like, like, you forget that a certain person who overdoses, who has to go to the hospital, who is then, when they wake up and are finally detoxed or are met by the police. - Right. - Instead of help. - Right. - Or someone who attempts suicide. - Yeah. - And who lives. And then it's, you know, that's illegal. - Is it? - Yes. It's illegal. - Yes. And so, like, there are these things that are, like, the people who are who are who need the most help are just put into this system, a punitive system. - Yeah. - And so, she gets sent off to California, which is obviously thousands of miles away. - How many years? How many years was this? - Five years. - Five years. - Five years. Five years for, like, was it, was it possession? Was it abuse? - Is it possession? - Five years. - Yeah. - So then after five years, she's left with, like, where do I go? - Yeah. - Who do I call? - Who do I call? - Yeah. - Start my life over. - And she goes, and she goes back to our aunt. And doesn't even tell her parents. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? And you see her having these conversations with her aunt about, like, like, can I even go find my son? Like, I failed. You know, just sort of feeling all kinds of shame, just coding everything. And I'm trying to remember what Aunt May says to her. - She ultimately, she doesn't go find her. And she doesn't tell her parents. And I think maybe she doesn't say anything that, like, convinces her to do anything other than what she's doing. But interestingly enough, going back to the farmer's market with her aunt, she winds up seeing high for the first time since incarceration. And he just sort of waves. And she waves back. And then Beth cuts into the story and be like, well, all y'all did was wave. After all the sexual tension. And I was like, hey, man, I want to hear about my wife. My mom does want the notebook. - She does want the notebook. - She does with the notebook. And I'm like, I don't need to hear about my mom. - But I was married and his wife was pregnant at that point. So that was kind of the end of their story. - And his life. But they would just sort of see each other, you know, throughout time. They grew up a little mustache, you know, saying, he said, I, she said, I, then we ultimately transitioned to Vienna. And who plays the eldest version of Laurel? - Laurel. - And we'll tell you a little story about her because she was absolutely wonderful on guests. - There was a lot of guests on this one. - Her last name is Gibb because she's Marla Gibb's daughter, Gibb. - Oh, wow. - Oh, I didn't know that. - Yeah. And when you see it again, you'll look at it and be like, oh, I see it. Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - You'll see it. So Angela Gibb's we transitioned from Jennifer to Angela and we transitioned from whoever the young start is, who plays the act to, to, to Vienna. And eventually she stops coming to the farmer's market. - And he knows something is up. - He knows something is up. His wife has passed away. His kids have grown up. He goes to visit her at her home and she's got her hair wrapped in a scarf and she's been going through cancer. And he's like, what are you going to do? How's the chemo going? And she's like, we passed that. Like it's two of the, they say it's very aggressive. It's going to come when it comes. And I'm just going to try to make the most of the little bit of time that I have left. And we have an echo of the first time that they spoke to each other and he says, well, you know, you eat all cooked. And they were blessed with two more years together. - Two years where he learned this whole story. - Where he learns this whole story. - It's like she's clearly knows that the end is coming for her and is ready and willing and able to sort of share all of her with someone. - Yeah. - And I think that was probably like a huge relief and release for her. - Absolutely. - So I found that interesting that that's how he was recounting this story. - Agreed. And I'd say for for Randall in terms of what Hayes telling him, he found there's not a day that your mom didn't think about you. Like whether she was in prison or out. Like she loved you fully and to know that he was spoken of. Because I think for such a long time, Randall just felt like he was an afterthought unworthy of love. Like a left that a fire station. No one came to find me. That sort of thing. Like in his mind, he it sort of reminds me in a very interesting way about like African Americans, Blacks in America. And Laura, a lot of us say that our story begins with the institution of child slavery. Like that's where it sort of starts. And I feel like that's sort of like where Randall does it. But then there's a rich history of life and ancestry that extends before that where there is no incarceration. There is no slavery that there is freedom or whatnot. Like I think a lot of people sort of yearn to know that specificity because you can speak to other folks of the diet. Asperer or either people from the motherland and like I've had people come up to me and be like what tribe are you from? And I'm like I'm from the St. Louis tribe. They're like no Before that would try with you from right, you know, I was like I don't know I don't know and I and I feel like Randall Hearing listening knowing that he comes from a place of love and wanting is sort of the fulfillment of that of knowing his tribe Do you know what I'm saying? So it's it's really cool. They finished telling the story very simply and when it's all done I says it gives him the keys. He said these are yours. And it's like you sure you don't want it's like no, I'm good I'll see you at breakfast in the morning and I got it like the moment between Beth and Randall. She's like how you doing? a question Beth comes in it's like this is a lot in one episode And he's like, you know what I just like found out my birth mother's story and got a farmhouse and learned about like You know got an uncle lost an uncle learned about our love story to meet fishermen what not and just like that's that's how I'm doing Yeah, yeah, and they go to the hotel and he's having a tough time falling asleep and She's knocked out and he says I'm gonna go for a drive if you wake up and he goes back to the to the house. I think he's just sort of Looking for the spirits. That's kind of like how I would like sure like if anything in here wants to speak to me What have you like I'm open? Yeah, I'm open to hearing it and then he steps outside of the house and he walks to the water that has meant so much to his mother and Even even higher it's told us like sometimes I feel like I can hear a laughing right he had told us that before And so Randall's like you know, why not? Like unlike my mama. I don't want my clothes to be all wet because Randall is very orderly. Yes, and so he takes You see all you Just gonna toss him down Only character in the show that would fold his clothes for a skinny He folds him up and walks into that cold ass water and They didn't pump any warm water in there for you. So it was a real lake So we had two different things in terms of shooting. There's the real lake that we had to shoot for that show Then we had a tank where me and the two ladies would have the action and that was warm that was one um and It was interesting because you hear her laugh. Yeah, and then you turn and you they see each other and Listen, this is interesting because I've lived a long time without without my dad and I say this all the time And which is the most reassuring that I can tell people who experience loss and it may be empty in the immediate but in the long term These words will reverberate. I believe they don't go away. Sure They really don't go away like that physical shell is one thing, right? And you may miss that particular Version, yeah, but that soul that essence that thing is eternal. Yeah, it cannot be destroyed. Yeah, and Like it was such a joy to do that because like I feel like I have that all the time. Mm-hmm I feel like Sterling Brown is always sort of saying like man, I can't believe you doing this stuff, man Like the dude we love TV so much people watch Barney Miller love boat fantasy all the stuff like that like the fact that I'm doing this right now Oh, he'd get such a kick out of it. Not he would not he would he is does. Yeah He actively does you know, and so it was such to be led through that and now I'm remembering remember when Jennifer came because I wasn't remembering the exact moment Or she's like I wanted to put my hand. Yeah, I saw that Right, and you see my hand sort of like put her hand. Yeah on my foot. Oh That moment was so beautiful Really was He really was man, and and so we we have this moment this release the sense of Completion and closure in terms of his story and the next shot you see of R&B Driving back to the airport or driving. I don't know if they were driving home or driving to the airport noticeably lighter just just Floating almost you know say I think you should have still been naked and probably that's probably that's what that's my hot take Smash cut to you dripping wet naked in the car just smiling smiling Life is good and first me like something's different about you. There is a sense of completion, right? Like you cannot get closer To right the truth like you cannot get any closer what it gives you've been given by this man Yeah, who basically says I just wanted to add this that he waited a long time to be able to do to do this for Laurel And I just like again this man this little like guardian angel man Came into your life for this very purpose to give you this gift and then just like it's like here's the keys Live a happy fulfilled life now that I'm giving you this piece of your history. Yeah Is like yeah, it just was remarkable to me. I love to like I the shot in the water of the two of you Of the version of of Laurel just before she passed and then the younger version like the juxtaposition of that It's just like it's it's just gorgeous. I'll tell you one thing though For first time director or whatnot K who's who's absolutely wonderful. I don't know how many times I had to scream in that water But there was a point where I was like all right now you don't get about one more take And we're done for Brown's voice. It's a shot. Yeah, yeah And I know we had a lot of know that that's coming We had Jennifer in here a couple episodes ago, but now having like Rewatch this episode so recently she is extraordinary. Yeah, wonderful extraordinary and again When you get cast on this show Thinking that you are uh, you know a day player perhaps You have a few lines in one episode and you're grateful for that and you just never think you're ever coming back To be called upon yeah three years later Crazy that crazy to to to to have that first episode right in 501 yeah For the episode to ended to have ended the way that it did and then to be brought back on a few episodes later For an an episode that is entirely based around you. Yeah To to to step into those shoes with such like Confidence and grace and like you can't take your eyes off of her She just like she imbued this woman with such humanity. Yeah, and gave us all again this more fully realized picture of a woman Who lived a real life and to for us to be able to like leave Feeling like so filled By by all that we did not know Yeah, um, it's just like kudos to her for what she did and and you know via and all of the actors in this like entire life in 42 minutes in 42 minutes and entire life Sometimes I was looking at I look at the iPad as I'm watching and I'm like and this is full. How do you get all this shit in it? Yeah Yeah, so I just had to mention that because I just we had her in here and it was so wonderful to see her and we had seen her a little bit in 501 but now to have this The whole um picture of this entire episode. Yeah, Jennifer was just Unbelievable job well done the only thing that I need to to finish off with is that there is an inspiration on Randall's part to reconnect with his brother Yeah, just so we can I'm gonna give you a little segway for that 507 There's a phone. He calls his brother just feeling ready to Barry the past to move forward with with this new lightness and I can take it away, but you have to let it go right and karev says Hey, man, I would love to talk to you right now, but I actually tonight is a bad time Madison is gone in the labor. I'm stuck in Vancouver. I cannot get to her or whatnot. I'm kind of freaking out over here So you have to excuse me. I'll hit you back when I can and I think we kind of see Randall and Beth make it a Maybe he just drove the California for now. I said after watch the episode. Yeah, I know I'm there Yeah, I just don't know like we how you got there. I don't remember either, but that's that's how that episode Yeah, and we're your kids. They old enough. They can watch themselves They can watch themselves. We are we are guest. We got We got KOA Goon coming in to represent for this episode because And OG writer. Yeah, so if you are a fan in the show, you are a fan of K's and you just don't necessarily know it yet because she is She is one of the heartbeats of this is that she's that chick. So we're gonna do a few ads right now and we'll be back with a little bit more That was us More that was us after these words from our sponsors I've been looking ahead of my calendar and realizing how much spring travel sneaks up on you Especially because February is a short month sneaky sneaky. It's not always a big vacation Sometimes it's work family visits or just getting out of town for a few days. I know I got to do some travel for the season two premiere of Paradise, lots of travel there for promotion, et cetera, et cetera. - We are getting ready for spring break. It's gonna be here before you know it. And you better bet. 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Sometimes we need to have someone that we trust. Bring the things that we need. I want to cook French toast for my kids on the weekend, right? Mahala specific. - You cannot be getting a random holla. - Don't be bringing me other bread other than my bread. - Yeah. - No, we're making French toast. - But you guys, so shoppers with shipped, communicate with you through text as they shop your order same day from all your favorite stores. I'm talking Target. - Yeah, pet smart. - My goals. - Albertson. - All of them. - I'm here to support the podcast. Let them know that we sent you. Try shipped free for 14 days. Download the app or visit ship.com. That's s-h-i-p-t.com. Terms apply. - We are so excited because today, we are being joined by one of the writers and the director behind episode 506, "Birthmother." - K-O-Y-E-Groon is here to talk to us via Zoom about crafting Laurel's story and expanding Randall's origin. - She is also going to break down the emotional weight of bringing this long hidden chapter of the Pearson family history to light. Let's jump right in and welcome K to the podcast. - K-O-Y-E-Groon. - Yay. - Yay. - How are you? - How are you? - Good job. - Oh my goodness. Hello. Hello, beautiful people. - It's so good to see you. - Oh. - You guys. Hello. - We missed you. - How are you? - Hey, I'm Kayby. Honey, I am so good. I'm so good. It's so good to see you guys in this weird phase. You're a producer explained. You're a producer explained it. So I'm looking at your-- - You're looking at-- - You know how this is. - The back of my head. - Yeah, you're looking at us looking at you. - And you are, and then you can see me, but then I can't see you. So I gotta look back the other way. - Well, we'll figure this out on some point. - Okay, Kayby. - It's all good. Hi, my love. - Hello. - The heck? Are you sister? - I'm so good. It's so good to hear your voice, sir. Oh my god. - So just for everybody knows, Kay is one of the OGs. She's like one of the lifers. Who was there from Jump Street to the end. - I mean, we've been talking about her for five seasons. - For five seasons. - Yeah, podcast. - We don't get Kayby Yegun on the show. And I personally refer to her as like the heart of the Black Pearsons. I feel like a lot of the storylines that came through, Kay was deeply protective of and made sure that like something rich and nuanced was always present. And like, we always say like they always had at least a couple of Black people, it would be Kay was always there. And then there'd be some other people that come in and out. Other people come in and out, right? But like, there'd be these moments where Dan would come up to you after something and be like, man, I never knew so much about Black women's hair. And like, thank god, he knew about sick pillowcases, everything else. That's Kay, okay, go right there, baby. You understand what I'm saying? Kay moved in the middle of the show towards the end. To the end. You got married? I got married. Yeah, and I moved back to Nigeria. She moved back to Nigeria. But I came back to the shoot stuff, yeah. To shoot stuff, but basically she could be living in Nigeria because she lives in Palmdale. Which is, there is. I love it here. It's like in the mountains. It's so pretty, you guys. Yeah, Palmdale is amazing. Palmdale is about 70 miles away from LA. So I'm teasing, but I'm not teasing. Yeah, same time. It really is 70 miles away, guys. But it doesn't feel like anything anymore. It's like an hour and 15 minute drive of no traffic. Oh, that's doable. It's fine. So, no traffic. With no traffic. Yeah, let's tell you something. With no traffic, yeah. My nanny bought a home in Palmdale too because there's one of the few places where she could actually afford to go. And so she gets to come either later in the day or later at night because when there is traffic, it's untenable, yeah. It's, it's, yeah. She might as well fly in from New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got to like plan your day properly. You got to plan your day. Yeah, and like set a bunch of stuff. I did have to get an Airbnb for a project I just did in LA, but that's okay. That's fine. It's all good. It's okay. That's a living right there. You got to do the same thing if you win Nigeria. Here's my question. We're going to start with this first. K you again. Tell us. Before we get into 506 and anything because I don't know when's the next time we're going to get you. And you are an important part of the fabric of the show. How depends on traffic. How did this us first come to you in your life? Yeah, it was the most boring, uneventful story as far as like getting, I, yes, I was on a show at the time. I was on Queen Sugar at the time. And we were wrapping up our first season. And so I was, I was there full season there. And then we, the show, we opened them weren't sure what they were going to do with the second season and all that kind of stuff. And so I was like the only person who wasn't an EP on the show. So I was like, I got to go work again. Because everyone else is upper level. And there were, we were five people in the room. Everyone else was upper level. And then myself. And so I was like, I got to go work. You guys can like wait and see all that stuff. But I can't. And so I had a script go into Fox. They sent it over to pitch. I met with Kevin Falls. And my meeting with Kevin went really, really well because he was show running pitch. And then my second meeting was with Dan. And Dan, in the middle of the meeting, we were talking. And we just really got along. And he had just had a loss. I was dealing with a couple of things. And we just had a really honest conversation. And I, I'm not a very, I'm not like a small talker. Like I like to go there. You're getting it, yeah. And so, yeah. And so that's what happened. And so we went there. And so we talked a lot about loss. We talked a lot about faith. We talked a lot about growing. We talked a lot about the fabric of things. He asked a lot of really interesting questions. Which was like, what do you think episode two should be? What do you think the show is, you know, looks like? And so a lot of those formative questions. And then in the middle of the funny enough, I told him the first five minutes of our meeting was like pitch related. And I was very honest with him. I was like, I love this script. I understand how to craft that character. But I've only ever watched two baseball games in my life. And so I will happily, and he laughed. And he was like, we got the baseball figured out. It's like other things that we're looking for. And then 10 minutes of the conversation, as we were talking about like our lives, he literally said, have you read 36? Like in the conversation about pitch, he asked me, have you read 36? And thank God I read all the pilots for that season. I read 36, which was what this is us was called before. And I loved it so much. And so in my pitch meeting, we started talking about 36. We started talking about this as us. And so the meeting was lovely and wonderful. I got in my car and my agent called me and said, Dan wants you to start on Monday. And so it was just sort of like, it was the day. From the beginning that it was like, yeah, it was like I was leaving out from Paramount. Because yeah, because he was he was over in that area. And so my drive back, my agent called me. It was just like, hey, he wants you in the room. And so I was like, praise God, like let's go. So yeah, which room? 36 36 36 it was 36 I was so he wanted me know he wanted me in and 36 room and so I I literally I left Queen Sugar on a Friday on like June Maybe first and I started this is us on June 4th And so it was literally I left from one job right into another I was very very grateful very grateful. So there was no it was like a weekend between Wow, and is this this is 2016 so our show had been picked up and we were just getting ready to start Shooting yeah, yeah, because I remember we started in like July like mid-late July or whatever. Yep, yep Lee, that is so crazy Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so then all right. Let's see how can we like segue up into five like It's tell me something about being That one of those representatives in the room and like the sort of because our show doesn't shy away from anything like we Talk about race. We talk about culture, etc. Like with the conversations like always easy where they sometimes fraught like And and in terms of the environment that Dan fostered for people to express themselves I want to know a little bit about that as well. I think truly truly and the evolution of the show is not Hard to track. I don't think the first season because Dan was overseeing both shows pitch and and this is us Well, they had different showrunners in a show and so his primary He wasn't the one that was primarily in the room and Isaac and Elizabeth hadn't Metriculated to co-show and a status at that point. Yeah, and so the first we the first the first season There was a lot of growing pains if that makes sense Yeah, and there were a lot of things that that I and this is something that I I'm so grateful that the audience never had to Experience like never had to experience or know or anything like that But in the room where the the the sausages made there are a lot of conversations that went on That it was pretty easy to see early on what needed to happen And I think that's where that protectiveness came from. Yeah, it wasn't something that I came in seeking to do to be honest When you come into a new show and you're surrounded by the smartest kind of people in the world You're not really like looking for like what's my, you know what I mean? Like what's my spot? But it's just one of those things where I remember very There were two incidents and instances early on that I was like, oh, I have a sense of what What I what I can help with through the course of the show and other things ended up happening But it was one in particular second week because the first week we like talked about ourselves We didn't even talk about the characters We had all the boards up some of the boards There was like 15% of the boards were up We built them out over the course of the first season But we talked a lot about ourselves all of they were we were seven in the room at the time We were seven in the room the first season was the smallest amount of people that we ever had on the show Yeah, and they were and it was very robust and we realized I think Dan doubled the number in the second or not doubled But he increased the number significantly because by the time we got to like episode 1617 and and 18 We were like Yeah, we were like three people were breaking stories We were like writing outlines and like everyone was tag teaming on stuff and yeah But the first the second week of the show I remember Dan was like hey go like come up with pitches and ideas for William and Randall's relationship Right, and so we all like went we were all super like impressed with our ideas and everybody came back with all the stuff And we all pitched him around the table and Dan has like the best poker face because he's actually like a legitimately good listener Like amazing listener and so he listened to all our pitches people were like William is a grifter He's got like you know, he's got another family There were all of these crazy ideas and so we all pitched them to him and Dan sat there He listened he nodded and then he was like this was I like Literally verbatim he was like what if he's just A father who had a really rough life And like genuinely wants to get to know his son And all of us in the room were like oh, okay, okay Everybody was looking for drama yeah, yeah, everybody was looking for drama Yeah, and it was just sort of like I remember in that moment, which again, I'm so grateful was second week I was like oh, that's what this show yeah, I was like oh, that's what this show is so now your mind is starting to kind of like Orient towards these kinds of stories and then The other moment that was really pivotal there is an episode four in first season when Randall has a conversation with William in the Like a clothing store. Yeah, and he has this kind of like Explanation of himself to his father who he feels judged by right the reason that Conversation happened almost word for word was because there was a particular How do I say this diplomatically there was a conversation in the room that required that conversation to happen sure That makes sense. Yeah, there was a there was a concern that what does Randall this wealthy black man have to come like worry about right To be bothered about right and that was sort of like having it was causing story issues And it was just sort of one of those things where there was an inability to kind of Get underneath him. Yeah, and understand his life and his perspective because on paper Here is this affluent black man with his family So there was no understanding necessarily of the depth of what he could be going through So my staff write herself sitting there listening to all of this. I remember getting very I don't want to say frustrated, but I remember being like hey just say something and so I said I like I said it to Said it out loud. Yeah, all the things that are in that speech right and Dan happened to be sort of like shadowing the room that day And he after finished saying it and just sort of like he would feel this and he would be looking at that guy standing there And he would feel like I walk through all like set it out loud in like a frustrated Yeah, and Dan looked over to like Laura Kanar who was our script because our script Our writer assistant. He was like did you get that where like that was sort of like what ended up being That monologue in the show totally and so it was just sort of things like that that kept that sort of happened organically That first season that it was just sort of like oh there's an arena that like Requires Like a comfortable nature of of a bit of of conversation. Yeah, and it was something that it was something that from then on Dan made room for it at all times Like it was just something that he just he wanted to and he and I are very close and so we talk offline about all kinds of stuff All the time. Yeah, and so it was it was never a goal It just kind of became something like that and I was always very amused and I would make fun of him that like When he made a black son in this white family, he didn't know initially that he was making a black show And so he finds that to be crazy, but that's what he ended up doing in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so okay You guys have questions Incredible that we've talked about our writers room so many times and about that how how specific our show is like you wrote down the specifics of our show on paper People would be like this isn't real this can't be real right and and And every single bit of it is put like ripped from the headlines as it were yeah, like this is The writers vulnerability and their ability to challenge each other Allowed the characters to challenge each other which pushed our audience to challenge themselves in their own lives And it's and it was it ended up being this beautiful symbiosis that that people really liked for six seasons it folks connected to it man in a real beautiful way And I can say by going into that writers room and bearing witness to the the nature And level of conversations that transpired in there and the sort of rawness Like it was not like K right now is being the most politic. I've ever seen her True because she knows she's on camera. Yeah, she's on camera. We all can't So the nature of like what happens inside there is like they go there. Yeah, they go there in a really weird right now is like next question. Yeah next question Mr. Brown next question next question is we're talking about this evolution of of having like this show Within a show that focuses on this black family so like we're sort of reaching a pinnacle of it with regards to Laurel's story So I'm curious for you because for the longest time I was like oh thinking the same thing as the character she passed away After delivering Randall whatnot overdose etc etc at what point in time did you guys build out the idea that maybe There's more to this story right what because I don't think it was from the beginning But I somewhere in between the beginning and five this sort of to germinate talked to us about that I'll tell you it was kind of from the beginning in one sense There was a version of her story in season one that I remember I remember it was so sad And it was so dark that we all kind of collectively were like this is poverty porn like we're gonna move away from this And so there was a version of her that existed in season one that like we all just kind of pulled out So we kept it sort of in the back pocket we knew that we were going there as season four was kind of with therapy and discussing mother And sort of like Randall and his mothers and and sort of with the origin of his problems where we had such an amazing Opportunity with Rebecca to sort of explore that relationship But then one of the things Dan was curious about was sort of an origin that is kind of he's talked to his two dads He's talked to his one mom, but there is One of the mom that like exists out there that like he was so curious about doing justice too And so he held that in the back pocket. I remember in the between season four and five Dan had written episode 501 and because over the during hiatus we would all there were a group of us that would talk and share pitches and and and scripts and stuff and so he shared 501 and in 501 at the end of it rural woke up And so at the end of your OG five or four or woke up at the end of five oh yeah, and it was like a very like oh my gosh Oh my goodness crazy like ending and it was just it was just sort of which is awesome So he so Dan wanted to go there he wanted to explore if he wanted to sort of dive into it And so in the process of doing that he was very taken by New Orleans and the world of New Orleans And I had come from Queen sugar and so I lived in New Orleans a little bit and shot in New Orleans And so there was sort of there were there were realities there that just sort of allowed for High to be created a Vietnamese community which not a lot of people know exist in New Orleans And so all of and and Dan is always he will always be drawn to what's true But also what's unexpected in the truth Yeah, and so when he found out there was a Vietnamese community He was like that I want to do that version of something. Okay, and so yeah, so there was always a desire to Do a Laurel something, but I think we we he he we like we wanted to we didn't know as the writers We didn't know how but Dan figured out how for you and Ebony and crafting sort of this iconic is the Ebony is the writer Support this episode and she's not feeling well, so she wasn't able to join us But she don't come on give her our love will have on at some point in time I'm sure but in terms of like what was important to you guys In Laurel's story because you're dealing with a blank canvas basically because we only know what the audience slash Randall has been told So you you have all of this stuff to explore what what was most important to you guys to get across in terms of bringing her story to life Yeah, when we break special episodes in the show We know what the season is well when we broke special episodes in the show We know what the season looked like and then we would sort of section off people So the breaking of this this particular episode It was myself Ebony Vera and Julia Bronnell, so we've got pulled yes We got pulled into a special room And we called ourselves like the little women like we wrote like little women on the door and we were the little women And so I think what we wanted to do in that room what we we endeavor to do Big picture for Laurel's story is we knew that the the edict was Get Randall back to Kevin by the end of the episode And then the other thing was Dan was really drawn to a love story And that was something that he was really really taken by a move by and so in the little women room We just we broke a love story we broke a love story broke the beats of a love story We walked through the love story and so that was kind of the big picture and so we pitched out the love story And so that's what you do in those those spaces whenever you have a special episode You break it in a small group you pitch it out to everyone including Dan He signs off on it and whoever the writer is goes off and now puts the meat on the bone so to speak And you directed this episode as well So and this was your first time directed. Yeah, and first time directing on our show obviously in the middle of COVID Which made things I'm sure all all the crazier um so much fun was this something You always were sort of plotting and like how did that come about and also then how special was it to direct this particular Episode helping sort of put this story on the small screen. You know, it's so funny I am the least ambitious person you could meet which is a very odd to say Truly truly it never occurred to me it never occurred to me that like oh, I'm just I'm already grateful to be writing in the room Like it's like I'm already where I want to be I'm already thrilled and happy to be there every day and like do anything and everything that that I can't to sort of like You know service the vision and all of that. So I it wasn't my idea at all. It was actually Dan Dan was like and he was very clear about it He was very much a sort of like, you know I've watched you it was like he's always just like Star Wars conversations with me It was like I've watched you grow and like very like you know all this stuff And just sort of like I think you're ready kind of thing to fly and all of that and I was very grateful So I literally he that was a desire that he had he told me in the beginning during the Kind of close to the end of our hiatus and he was like I want you to direct this year and all of that And so I was like okay, so I I didn't say no because look you're not gonna give me a blessing and I'm gonna say no But it's just like I was also like oh how you know what I mean, but I also I The benefit of doing that in this show was just sort of you're already such a part of the stew right? Making the project and like the other episode like you're you're you're you have autonomy over the words and you know a lot of our directors just got handed scripts They had thoughts and notes, but we weren't required necessarily to take them, but in this situation I had the the like Right certainly, but it's like in this situation. I had like the opportunity to kind of just be like I get to write what I want to see So it's just like I get to sort of you know, it's like if I and and Dan again was so receptive There were so many things because he wanted it to feel the ethereal and so I sort of you know was like pitching him like a water baptism Kind of store like area and he was like super into it and there were just so many things that he was Open to exploring and allowing to happen and we have the best crew in the world Gary frucoff who is our production designer on the show Funny enough, he was my production designer on queen sugar So it's like we knew each other way back when and came on the first day on of the disaster We were like hey like it was just like it was like oh, okay So we worked so closely together and we we already knew a lot of the similar kinds of stuff And so we knew the kind of place we wanted we knew the kind of house we wanted ought made to have we knew what kind of sort of You know elements of of New Orleans that we wanted to bring we shot it in like you know Sandburn and you know or something we did, but we we were gonna do new ones, but it was cold We worked out this from going. Yeah, COVID was so Intense during that period and the during shooting both Jennifer who played Play Laurel and Sue Got COVID in the middle of our shoot and so it was just sort of like, but it was good. We thank God. We thank God It was everybody everybody was okay. Hey, so you don't want to be getting in in a lake in New Orleans It wasn't much better. It wasn't much better in California, but there's no there's no alligators in California facts Yeah I don't think I would have got naked We would have had you know a situation set up for you you would have had this stupid diverse I will tell you this it was so cold that night And I Cares like so so as KB like I need you to take it close off and the thing I said, okay, you didn't know that beforehand Wasn't a hundred percent sure like it was it was really because we weren't sure we weren't sure Talk about yeah, maybe it was a tight Yeah, they didn't mention it to anybody else maybe not by the way sterling just uh, it's damn And she is like Liga's gonna be like you do what you want to do, but I was like sister's director in their first episode Brown going help sister out, but I Brown say hey tell me when we cutting so I can walk my black ass out this one Right on out. Yeah, don't just have it be going or whatnot As she said, I probably don't cut before you even get to this far and you know how directors do they say, huh? Bruns just walking out. Yep. Yep. Yep. It is almost in the water. I was like thought you was going And they're like it just looks so good. That's okay. I'm sorry. I'm freezing It was one of those I'm so grateful that you did it Sterley and I am and it was something where we weren't sure as far as like NBC rules Basically of nudity and all of that stuff. So we had talked about in the meetings I'd written it as he was like an underwear But I express the vision right and so there was a vulnerability a birth all that kind of stuff I get that he knew yeah, he knew what my desires were and he was very kind Too much about it. They gave him all kinds of awards for it You know what I mean? He got all kinds of awards. Yeah He's fine Were you in terms of the directing process? Were you ultimately like happy? Were you overwhelmed? Were you a little bit of everything throughout the process? Like how did it feel being behind the help? You know we have again the best team on the planet We have the best team on the planet our crew was just remarkable and so I felt very Supported every step of the way. Yeah one of the things that people don't realize is because Yasu usually on on shows like there's like an alternating p-situation but Yasu we have one dp for the whole show and so Yasu rarely ever gets an opportunity to prep And so that's something that people don't necessarily think about when they're yeah watching a show that you're you're you're Your director and your dp usually prepped together But in this situation Yasu is shooting the other episode while you're prepping. Yeah, and so that was something that was really tricky But I would I would send him like Pictures and images and like terrible stick figure drawings and all of this stuff to just be like for the big stuff For the things that I really wanted like I saw in my head that shot of Laurel in the white gown the back of her lit by the moon like I saw that in my like I was like no matter what I do in this episode I have to get that shot and so things like that so I drew that in a stick figure and I was like Yasu this is something I wanted to get and so and make this happen and so there were there were like priority lists that we would sort of talk about and so I didn't feel and also look I pray about everything and so I didn't walk into anything feeling nervous because I was like Lord if you brought me here you'll bring me through it and so that was something that I I never felt that level of nervousness and I also felt very supported by everyone around and so you guys killed it performance wise the crew killed it behind the scenes and so I was so grateful and we are so many new people on the show Jennifer had never who played Laurel had never you know done as that as much as the center and so we had a lot of late night conversations we had a lot of just sort of walking through things and it was always a very safe set I remember everyone was always very kind about keeping noise levels down allowing for her to kind of go there allowing for takes for her to go there because there was a lot of sort of wrenching that she had to do in this episode and and and I was just so grateful time at bride was amazing I'm just like there were so at least a Hamilton like there were so many people that came to play that I was just sort of like where they do that at like it was just the coolest we talked to being home in the last episode too yeah I was so wonderful just so so good yeah it was like he was remarkable just remarkable two things that I thought were really well done in terms of the writing was the the question that Randall had which I think the audience has is like all right if she were alive and how come she didn't reach out to your boy like how come like there's all this time yeah that sort of existed between the time and when she actually passed away and that I've been alive the idea that she didn't come through and when when when high says that she went to jail like there's this moment like on on Randall's face and me watching Randall be like something I didn't even consider yeah and it made me think about like how masterful I started juxtaposed like the addiction of Kevin with the addiction of Laurel and how those two things played out in life and I was like who got punished that shit feels real and I just wanted to know like I mean I'm sure that was a bit concerned for you guys too and just like sort of coming to that decision and like how did it all come together with that because it felt like if you dropped the ball there and people were left feeling like ah she could have done better no like it's like no there's nothing else that could have really happened and then also the idea of shame and feeling like you know I've been gone for such a long time how do I just reintroduce myself after this seeming abandonment I just want to hear your thoughts about that as a writer I mean again we have so many conversations in the room and one of the things that we wanted to do especially in that time period those were all based on articles that we had read yeah that there was an over policing in particular communities for drug addiction for carrying for possession all of that and that was something that the five years we even like reached out to some folks because we were so diligent everybody was watching our show with like a fine tooth comb sometimes it was just we had to make sure that we got these things sort of not even sort of right and that was the truth that was the truth there was a heftier heftier sentence for a lot of black and brown folks during that period they're still but during that period for sure and so it was something that we wanted to be honest to and I think in crafting her story we also wanted to account for that amount of time so if this person died in 2015 what could actually cause them to sort of not do move heaven and earth to find their kid you know what I mean and and I think putting that area there it was not only shame from her family and not even sort of being able to go back to that environment but also carrying that shame within herself and not really knowing how to let that go and so I think that was something that we talked about at length and the kind of person Laura was and who would be able to sort of shoulder that because there's some people who have gone to prison for a long time and when they get out right they're back to you know they're about that business but it's like for someone like Laurel we wanted to walk through the real of this kind of girl who kind of felt like the world was her oyster in a way but when she realizes that it's not now what happens it's like there's a real fear that kind of lives with her in a way for the rest of her life that she managed to find joy and light in different places but it kind of hung over her for a while yeah this is the other thing I wanted to mention real quick and then I'm sorry I'm talking a lot but I was rewatching the episode I was so profoundly moved and I just want to talk a little bit about the love story and and Vien said this like how moved he was to see like the two people who are often seen as two groups that are seen as least attractive or appealing etc in terms of black women and Asian men finding love within one another right like how important that that was for you as well because I am oftentimes left with this feeling of like black women I think are the most frequently misunderstood slash dismissed group of people in these United States they're often told that they are too much that they are difficult that they are this that and the other because I don't know I don't know exactly why and maybe you have a thought on that cane if you want to articulate it please feel free to do so but to see someone be front and center a black woman not overly sexualized but being allowed to be romantic to have an Asian male love interest as well and it was sexy and it was sweet like and it was like they got a meet cute you know what I'm saying like he thought she was drowning I'm not drowning and if he can't speak English and what not and she don't know that looks for her you know I'm saying he said beautiful you eat I cook and then we got a chance to have an echo when they finally came back to each other's life like she was beautiful how we don't get that kind of beauty with great frequency Jill I'm just curious if you want to articulate on any of the shit that I just said come just about. Beautifully said I'm certainly beautifully said exactly why you said that is why we did it we had a lot of those conversations in the room and I remember when we were first talking about it and we were we were first talking about a sort of big picture there was the kind of you know is it Pocahontas like there was like a kind of like there were references that were used in the room of the kind of man that he would be and I remember that feeling and we we sort of again our room was always very open and Dan always created this environment for people to have different opinions I remember that feeling like haven't we seen that before like you know what I mean like this like it would be like this like very like swarthy white guy like we were going to change the dynamics before we landed on what we ended up landing on it was going to be like a John Smith kind of guy to be completely honest like that's what the OG version you know it was going to look like yeah and it was one that just felt very played it felt very uninteresting it felt very explored frankly and so that conversation came up where we were like I mean a Vietnamese speaking group of people on camera on a network television show is just not something that typically happens period yeah and so it was something that we were just sort of like oh how can we not only explore that but also create us like a leading man out of that and just sort of you know and dig into that again an environment that Dan always allows you know for these kinds of things to happen and something that he was so into I think even he was the one that sort of like when it was voiced the John Smith version he was the one that kind of felt like I don't really want to see that I don't really want to do that and so we had to kind of figure out what was the a different way in yeah and so I that was something I never I understand the stigmas that are around black women I don't take them on because I was born in the skin you know what I mean I was born in the skin and I've never had a different her you know point of view so all my leading people are black women so it's just sort of like it never occurs to me that that that is not the case you know what I mean that's sort of the the the lens with which I see you know and so therein lies the fact that I am aware of it and that's part of the reason why I enjoy being in situations where there's a level of underestimation there is a level of a need to clarify I love it I've never been in an all black room like I have so many friends who gravitate towards all black writers rooms and they just like love it there they're like I'm not going anywhere high five you know I'm not doing it I'm like put me put me in a room with like where's just like two of us and we have to like stand on business in that environment because people stand on business in that environment and I love it and so I never feel I yeah I don't know yeah I think that's sort of the point of view because it's like somebody has to be there somebody has to do it and do it with grace do it with humor do it with understanding because it was never a fight you know what I mean it was always a conversation it's like I'm also very open to be wrong I don't have a I'm not a monolith I like what I like you know what I mean and so it's just sort of like I'm not out here trying to represent everybody but I definitely know that like if there is a humanizing of someone we're going to find it yeah we're going to go there we're going to go there we're going to figure it out uh listen it's been I can't really we just talk to you we gotta have to have you like a whole episode it was it I don't know if you can make it from Palmdale but if you can Grace us from yeah up north. It's not it's not in space - Okay, it's chest. - We'll meet you halfway. We're used to the one on one. - You want a berbeck? - We're used to the one on one. - So, we're used to the one on one. - There you go. - Okay. - Oh, yay, Goon. I speak for all of us. We love you. - We love you, Kay. - I love y'all. - I love you, Kay. - I love you, Kay. - I love you, Kay. - Next time, come in studio and do a whole episode. - Yeah, come in studio and like break down a whole episode. - That's a highlight. - Done and done. - We love you. - Kay. - Guys. (upbeat music) - That was us as film that rabbit-grin studios and produced by rabbit-grin productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ♪ Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, ♪ ♪ That was us. ♪ - That was a "Hate Gum" podcast.