Lattice VP of Product Marketing, Emi Hofmeister on Storytelling

[MUSIC] Welcome back to season six of the product marketing experts podcast. Today, I am so excited to have Emmy Hawkmeister, the VP of product marketing at Lattice with me. Emmy, welcome to the podcast. I'd love to start with, how did you get into product marketing and what was kind of your journey into product marketing? Because everyone's path is just a little bit different. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you, how you got into product marketing, what inspired you to get into it. Great. Well, when I started my career, I was really driven by understanding the psyche behind why did customers or why did individuals make the decisions that they did about purchasing or what they wanted to explore ultimately by. My first job out of school was working at a traditional advertising agency. I will still say that those are some of the most fun types of projects that I've had the opportunity to work on, just in terms of working with creatives and really creating that emotional connection with the people that were buying the products that I was supporting. So my path started with traditional advertising. I was in San Francisco. It was a good time to get into tech. So I left the advertising world, went to tech and started doing more marketing strategy at a time when social marketing or social media was really kind of coming into its own. And that led me to a series of startups where I was supporting that the marketing strategy. One of those startups was purchased by Adobe. And I got to be at Adobe and really build my self in my career as a product marketer starting there and moved over to LinkedIn where I spent about seven years in product marketing and combination of product marketing as well as our customer insights team. So I had a chance to be closer to sales and to some of our data. And most recently found myself at another kind of through another series of startups and landing at lattice. Amazing. Well, I don't think for any guess I've heard to totally a like pass and your path certainly is unique. But I imagine your experience working at at agency and hopping into marketing strategy and tech gave you a lot of great background in just customer insights messaging storytelling which we're certainly going to talk about a lot today. So that's an amazing background. Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that I think I was lucky enough maybe to find product marketing at a time when particularly the tech industry was really defining what that looked like. And so one of the things I like about product marketing is it's not, it has the ability to be highly strategic or a role that operates more like a GM function inside of an organization where you get to see a lot of what's happening across the company and connect the dots in a really meaningful way. And I think that for at least my generation of product marketers really stumbled into the function and into the field at a time where it was being defined and we got to shape what it looked like on the other side, which was fun. For sure, 100% agree. This generation of product marketing, it was a lot of fun 'cause we were writing the rules so to speak whereas-- Yeah, exactly. It's finding where we could provide value. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. I want to hop a little bit into storytelling. Your currently at lattice is an amazing company and storytelling has certainly, at least from the outside looking in, been at the heart of a lot of the work that I imagine you and the lattice team have been working on. And storytelling at the end of the day, in my opinion, is the heart of really great marketing. Can you share a little bit about how you think about crafting great product stories that really resonate with customers? Yeah, ultimately, every story that you tell is going to take a slightly different path. But there are some areas that I really like to invest in understanding. And so to build a great story, I think you really need to understand your market. Like, what are the conditions surrounding you and your customers at this point in time? Are there changes in a macroeconomic environment that are putting more pressure on your customers? Is there-- was something just unlocked? Like, a couple of years ago, it's like all of a sudden, Gen AI was this new idea that many people inside of companies were having to think about, how do we manage? How do we navigate this effectively? So there's different market conditions that you have to be aware of and really understand how they're impacting your customer or the person that you're talking to. The second area that I would like to deeply understand is the audience. So this is maybe a point 1a and 1b. But I do think that they looked a little bit different. Who is the decision maker? Who is the primary user? What are the considerations that they're going to be thinking about and how do you elevate their role or their function or their projects within a company through your product or through the brand that you're representing? And then the final thing that you really have to understand is what makes your product or brand different, right? What is unique to the way that you are bringing a product to market that is going to satisfy some of these audience or market changes or conditions that you see around you? So really understanding those three elements to me gets you to a key insight about your customer and their needs and matching that to your product. So that key insight often serves as the foundation of what I hope will become a great story. But even sets it up to say, here's the reality of the world. Here's the reality that we're operating in. Here's what we know about you. And here's what we can unlock for you. So there's probably some semblance or that looks similar for a lot of product marketers or marketers in general in terms of those areas to understand. But I just break it down to the market, the audience and our company or brand and getting to that key insight. Love that framework. It's so powerful and so simplistic all at the same time. I know there's tons of storytelling frameworks out there that are great in many respects, but many can be complicated, right? And so love this simplicity of that way of telling stories that is really, really powerful. One of the last pieces you talked about was knowing what kind of sets your company apart and knowing what different sheets your company, lattice in almost every company these days are in crowded markets, right? And so how do you balance some of the technical details and emotional storytelling and the unique capabilities to really tell a differentiated story at less? - Yeah, it's such a good question. And I concur, I think there's a lot of us product marketers that are operating within commoditized spaces. And the rule of thumb is you can never be a feature by feature comparison. We can never go out there and be marketing based on individual features that we have. One, because it's not going to be emotionally resonant and two, because it's not a winning strategy. But I think the number one thing that you can start with is asking if you are operating in a crowded market, go to your customers, why did they choose you? They have all of the same choices that you are running up against in those, you know, head to head kind of prospect battles. So ask your existing customers, what was it that was compelling about your product, about maybe your services or maybe even your brand? I mean, it doesn't just have to be the product that's differentiated. I know for lattice, for example, one of the areas that our customers consistently cite as a reason that they love lattice is the quality of service and support that they get from our teams. And, you know, that can't be overlooked, but that then becomes an opportunity for us to lean into that. As marketers, we can talk about the great service. We can talk about the way that teams have helped to educate or support or unlock opportunities for customers just through the way that we, their health customer stories or through the way that we structure our site or where we focus people inside of sales conversations. So I think figuring out from your customer why they chose you and is there scalability in that is the first place I would start. - I love that. It's so easy to fall back on some of those common pieces of positioning, save time or whatever the case may be. And, you know, digging a little bit deeper into why do your customers truly love you and highlighting those pieces can really separate your story from other competitors in the market? - Yeah, and the other thing to add is don't be afraid to lean into brand, don't be afraid to be bold or different in the way that your brand comes across because that starts to create at least memorability. I mean, I think one of this is, is how do you differentiate yourself as like, how do you make it to the slate of like the consideration set? Because ultimately then it should be that your awesome sales team and your products should be able to showcase kind of like why people should choose you, but the hardest part is just getting on that slate of like contenders, right? And so if you need to lean into brand or if you need to do something that feels a little bit different than the way that other companies are approaching their go to market, that might, you know, it's a bad, but it might work out in your favor. - For sure, 100%. And do you have any data points that you regularly look at or would like to look at for that matter to tell how some of those stories are working or how some of that differentiation is resonating? - Yeah, so I have often been in sales led companies. And so I think probably the data points that I'm looking at are different than if you're in a product led growth company. So I'll start with that small caveat. This isn't always available, but if you're able to see how many times are specific assets being used, connect those assets to Salesforce data or whatever your CRM data is to see that when these assets are used, we are closing deals at a higher rate or we're getting to the next stage more often. If I can get those data points and I will say but some companies that have better access to them than others, but that's the golden goose to really understand, okay, is this being used and is it effective? And then I think the other thing, and this is universally, you can do this at whatever company you're at, watch, if you roll out a new story, if you roll out a new piece of collateral, Go look at con calls and see if Reps are actually using, again, this is for sales. But if reps are actually using the content, the number of times my team has put a lot of effort into a really nice succinct story where maybe it's like 10 really crisp slides or eight really crisp slides. And I go on the gong calls and reps are using one or two of the slides. It's like, oh, we haven't quite hit the story. There's a nugget in there that people are liking and that they're pulling forward. So let's lean into that nugget. But if we have a bigger concept to get across or if we want to really connect this part of the story to why our product is so great or why it's differentiated, we want them to be able to create that bridge not necessarily through slides, but through the talk draft. And so this is something we need to go back to understand why they're not using something and how we can continue to help a story scale. Because I mean, like part of it that a product marketers job is to build the story. But I think the hard part of the job is getting that story to stick into scale and creating a consistent understanding and interpretation of your product or your brand. And that's the hard part. - Completely agree. That is the extremely hard part from training and enaliments of sales or broader revenue team for that matter to like evolving the story as well. Not only as the market or competitors change but as your own product changes. How do you think about that like evolution of the story and how often do you maybe you or your team look at some of those respective stories to change them or update them? - Yeah, it's a great question. Probably not enough is the answer in terms of how often we go back and change them because it's a lot of work to create a story. But I think maybe just going back to that initial framework of really understanding what's happening in the market or what's happening with your particular customer. I can give you an example from Lattice. Lattice for a long time talked about the importance of engaging your workforce, right? And the products that we're delivering are creating like opportunities to engage your employees and engaged employees are more productive or higher performing employees. And that narrative is still true. But as we saw shifts in the macro as companies were going through layoffs as a lot of companies were being asked to do more with less. The concern was engagement to a degree but also then performance and productivity and efficiency in the workforce that we have in place. And so that was a prompt for us that hey, we need to revisit the framing. We're still driving the tools that we deliver, the way that our products sit inside of an organization are still going to create opportunities for employees to engage with their managers, with their company. But let's take this back and let's talk about really, how does that higher engagement lead to higher productivity? How does that higher engagement or alignment around common goals which our product offer really drive toward greater efficiency where there's less lost focus inside of an organization because of the type of rigor that products like ours can create? So it's a tweet. Ultimately the products aren't doing wildly different things. But we need to pick up on the efficiency needs within the market versus the engagement needs. And so that's an example. And I think sometimes the macro is going to hand you a really big switch that you just have to inherently then take into the way that you're talking about your products, the way that your narrative comes across. Other times, it might be something where, of course, you launch a new product. And you have to think about how that impacts the way that you come across. Maybe you're moving from a suite of products to a true platform where everything is integrated. And we have to be able to tell that story as well. So I think that there's going to be some obvious moments throughout one's career of like here, we have to start calling a different story. But I will say in general, best practice is like check it every six to 12 months, right? Our reps using it, is it the story that we want to be telling and does it feel fresh and consistent with where our vision and where our products are at today? Absolutely. That sounds so simple and so right to me in so many ways. And I want to touch on or dig a little deeper on one of those pieces. You kind of were talking through a little bit of like the subtle shift in the story, right? I've been through this, but maybe for some folks listening to this, that's maybe noticing shifts out in the markets. How do you prove that out to the org that like, hey, this is the change in story that we should make. We should be going in this direction rather than the story we have been telling. That is a great question. I don't know if I have a hint of how to do that right, or how to do that consistently, right? In terms of proving to the org that this is an investment we should make in terms of whether it's marketing time and attention or sales time and attention to be enabled on a new narrative, maybe getting ahead of myself and I'll come back to the specific question like that, having a sales champion and specifically a sales leader champion in a sales line of the organization is an imperative to getting a story to scale, to doing to making sure that you're telling the right story, making sure reps are excited about it, making sure they know how to use it, making sure they understand what the impact of it could be. Like that, all of that information comes from your sales champion. So maybe backing up a little bit, there's a couple ways to prove it out. One, just being able to showcase, here's where the shift is in the market. And most companies are doing a lot of research, whether it's with their customers or with kind of like the broader audience based to just understand what's top of mind for them, what are the priorities going into the next buying season, what are their considerations for switching vendors? You know, I would say that if you're looking to make a switch in how you're positioning, giving a little bit of that intel about like what is top of mind for customers will ensure that the direction you're going is right. And also the other people can see that that is the direction that the market is going. So obviously getting some quick data, and it can be quick data. Like this doesn't have to be a big intensive research project, but like getting some quick data on that. And then tapping some of your allies or top reps inside the company and say, hey, maybe try this talk track or ask about this thing. And let's just get some early signals and feedback through these conversations. Is this top of peaking interest? Is this something that feels natural to our product, to our brand? And what is your feedback on whether it's this positioning statement or even this thought leadership content? What are the reactions that you're getting? And I think both that kind of like more quantitative and more qualitative data points, help paint a picture of either why we need to do this. Or, hey, let's just make some small adjustments. And I think that this doesn't have to be a big question side of the company. Love that. I love the quick iterative testing to tapping a champion or a team that can help you quickly test out quite slight change in positioning or maybe even a large change in positioning. But we're going to this can help you maybe gather some initial data or at least provide some initial feedback as well. I certainly done that as well with some of the NSL's lead motion in like with the XTR team or looking at some of that data and how those conversions are going as well can be really, really powerful way. Before you make massive shifts or go too far down the road to get some initial data on how that new positioning is potentially working. Yeah. And actually, I forgot one thing that we've done a lot. And I think this is easier to do and maybe more of a startup kind of faster moving environment. We change our H1 on our website often enough to get some good reads on how is this impacting time on site, people's likelihood to click through to a demo or click to get more information. And we've seen some pretty impactful changes through using different types of language on our website just in that headline space. And that shouldn't be overlooked. And there's probably-- there's a ton more kind of on the growth marketing side too, just in terms of AB testing whether it's different ads or different terms in search marketing. So there's some ways to get more early signals based on the types of verbiage that you're using in the market. Or short. And how do you think about carrying that through the customers journey, whether that's through a cross-alop cell type opportunity or just a customer that is looking to expand or whatever the case may be? But how do you think about carrying that messaging through the journey, hopefully to additional products or add-ons that the company offers as well? Yeah. It's something that we're thinking about a lot right now, simply and tactically, like making sure that you're really telling the better together story with your products. So if they have purchased for a reason that was part of your storyline, was part of your messaging, you're better together should reinforce that storyline. So if-- well, you lose it very simply. But if it is about saving time, which it should not be, because everyone's going to say that they save time, if you use product A and product B, man, it's going to save you even more time. Because using these things together bolsters all of these different components of the way that the product delivers value to your company. So I think that if there's a cross-aloportunity or an upsell opportunity, being able to double down on the story that you're telling, because just by using more of your product, the customer is going to get more of that value. If a cross-alop product offers kind of a completely different value, you're going to want to be able to level that up to still tell-- it still should reinforce the original value of what was important to the customer when purchasing. And other way, again, super tactically, but to reinforce this is establishing rigor. And this is less on the product marketing side and more on the account management or relationship management side. But establishing rigor around the checkpoints that are happening with accounts. So if your accounts are large enough, and it makes sense to be having quarterly business reviews or executive business reviews on some cadence, making sure that positioning is coming through and updated accordingly and updated with relevant data from the customer. So you might have bought for a reason A, the market has shifted. Let's talk about how we are responding as a company to these ships in the market and how we're either reinforcing or slightly moving away from the value that was initially promised and toward the value that you really need for your company at this point in time. Absolutely. That resonates so deeply with me, especially across the QBR and the EVR side as well. It's such a great ground to share messaging to test messaging as well with existing customers and get that opportunity to showcase additional value. Yeah, and maybe one other comment there just on tactical things to do is pull forward customer stories that underscore the storyline or the points that you're making in market. Make sure that your customers are seeing the benefits that you promised or that you would expect them to see. I want to shift gears a little bit. I want to stick with storytelling, but just shift gears a little bit and talk about how do you think about developing that storytelling skill set on your team directly for maybe doesn't have to be a net new product marketer could even be a senior product marketer. How do you think about fostering and nurturing that skill set and helping others develop a skill set? Yeah, I will say that again, super tactically, a messaging framework is a really good place to start in terms of establishing and maintaining expectations of what do we need to know before we can even get this story off the ground. It's coming back to some of the original things I was talking about. What do we know about the marketer, about competitors, how are they talking about their products? Just creating a space to get all of that information down in one place. If you're not using a consistent framework or even spreadsheet for, hey, how do we capture all of this information that's going to feed into the storyline? I think it's an absolute must. That's baseline for me of what I would establish within the team as a common framework for capturing this information. Then in terms of developing that skill set, I think a lot of it comes back to some of the tactics that we were talking about. Engaging with your sales team or engaging with your growth team, really looking for feedback from other parts of the organization that are getting different types of intelligence or feedback from customers. Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. You can build the greatest story in the world, but if no one's biting on it, then it's meaningless. Look for the opportunities to partner and engage with the folks inside of your organization that are getting that consistent feedback from customers or have the ability to get that consistent. I don't think customers generally, but might be prospects, might be other folks in the market. There might be setting up a tiger team and being able to run the tiger team effectively, where we're feeding information in and then they're providing insights back to us. It might be just sitting on calls with a sales team and being part of the pitch and part of that process. I will say that some of the best edits that I've made to stories that I've developed come from me trying to be in the sales seat and the pitch, the story. Don't get away from doing that because you're going to realize that something that looked so good on a whiteboard or sounded so good in a strategic conversation just falls completely flat when you're trying to talk to somebody else about their business. Like, there is a gap there that is very real that you have to understand. So setting up tiger teams, getting out yourself and doing it, and then understanding what you need to see in order to say, yes, this is the right story and we're ready to scale it. I completely agree. I've had very similar learnings as well. I mean, like pitching my own story and listening back to reporting or just hearing feedback from that has been just so insightful too. And even just developing the story, letting it set for a few days, let's just say, and then coming back to it a few days later, I've certainly had some reactions. Why didn't I write that way? That's like any sense or this could be better phrased or whatever the case may be in so many ways. Yeah. So I was talking about like selling it externally. I think you know, you go around and try to sell it internally and you'll have some of those realizations too. I remember talking to a product manager at LinkedIn about the narrative that we're developing and you know, he was kind of a little bit like, hey, all of this is good and it's a lovely story. But where's the magic? Where do we see the magic? What's going to really be that moment where somebody's head turns or their jaw drops on the floor? And I remember that's an insight that I've carried with me kind of in every story. Where is the magic to this? Because so often it's like we're talking about what it does. But what is this magic wand that we are bringing to you, your organization with the products or the tools or capabilities we're delivering? For sure. I love that phrase. Where's the magic? I may have to steal that or you thought. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being with me today. I mean, I really appreciate it. As we start to close out, one question I love to ask guests because we love to inspire other product marketers and help them learn. Are there any books or bug guests for that matter or blogs or what are the keys? Maybe that you're reading today or articles that you've read that have really had a significant impact on your career that you'd love to just share with everyone. Yes, I'll give you one maybe unconventional one and one conventional, but the book Impro, I have it in my office so I could probably look it up. But the book Impro, it's about tenants of improv. People have read it. It's probably in the business book like repertoire, but I did improv for years and I think that in terms of storytelling and terms of being able to connect with your audience and terms of trusting your instincts, Impro just gives kind of an incredible view of how you can lean into your initial ideas and you can lean into your partners to get to a better outcome. So I highly recommend it. And then I listen to a lot of Lenny's podcast. He interviews a lot of product managers, but I'm just given where we sit inside of the organization. There are just really strong strategic takeaways and learnings that he brings forward. So I do listen to a lot of Lenny. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I mean, I appreciate you being here. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me.