Latinos See More Movies Than Anyone. Why Is Hollywood Ignoring Them?

"This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called "Ringer Movies." If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck, because every episode of the rewatchables in the big picture, now on YouTube." Like Bill said, "Ringer movies will feature full episodes of my show, the big picture, the rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history, and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie loving, ringer personalities. Search "Ringer movies on YouTube" and experience the joy, Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera." Latinos or Latinx people will use the term Latinos. They hold only 5% of the leading roles on screen. Also, only 5% of behind-the-scenes jobs on movies. Also, less than 5% of the executive roles in US media companies. That's been true forever, and while the representation has gotten better in recent years, it's still really bad. And there's a financial consequence here, according to a new McKinsey study. McKinsey says the entertainment industry loses 12 billion to $18 billion a year in revenue by not catering to this Latino audience. That's 7% to 10% of all of the overall revenue, according to this research. That's not philanthropy, that's lost money. And what's interesting is this is a McKinsey study. They're not advocates or a think tank funded by George Soros. They are a ruthless management consulting firm. Their job is to make more money for their clients. And this isn't their only study on representation in Hollywood. $10 billion per year from closing the Black inequity gap. $2 billion to $4.4 billion for more effectively tapping the Asian and Pacific Islander markets. These reports are somewhat controversial in Hollywood. Lots of chatter about how exactly they arrive at these totals. But it's pretty clear there's money being left on the table. And if so, what is Hollywood doing here? We're getting into that today. We've got an author of the study, Camilo Bechtas. She's a partner at McKinsey. And we're going to discuss all the numbers, the data, what it shows, and why Hollywood isn't doing more on this subject. It's Latinos on screen and behind the scenes, the billion dollar representation problem. From the ringer and puck, I'm Matt Bellany, and this is the tap. All right, we are here with Camilo Bechtas, who is a partner at McKinsey and the co-author of the Latino representation in Hollywood report. Welcome, Camilo. Thanks, Matt. Great to be here. All right. So I want to get into this because your reports at McKinsey are somewhat controversial around Hollywood. I hear about them a lot because they are often used by people to say, "Listen, what are we doing here, guys? This is not an advocacy group that is telling us there is under-representation. This is McKinsey. McKinsey's whole existence is to make companies more efficient and to be the bad guys that come in and tell you to cut costs or tell you to sell off a division." And they are saying, "We are squandering billions of dollars of year without representation in movies." And people push back on that. They're like, "Okay, well, it's very easy for McKinsey to say that. They're not in the trenches here. They're not looking at the PNLs of each of these films, ultimately." And if you look at some of the films that have been released lately with Latino leads, you look at Blue Beetle, you look at In the Heights, you look at these big swings that Hollywood has made on Latino-driven films. Some of them haven't worked lately. So what is your response to that and what is your messaging that you put around this study? You know, first off, this is about opportunity and this is about if you look at the universe of Latinos say they love Hollywood. They love going to the movies. The one in five Americans are Latino yet to make up 25% of box office revenues. And look, in the genres that matter, 80% of box office revenues, horror, family, fantasy, superheroes, Latino show up. Just in horror alone, they show up 30% of box office receipts. And so what we tried to do was look at this data and then look at the representation. You know, when you look on screen, it's just about 4% of Latinos are playing a leading role. And the numbers are even more drastic when you go into director, pursuers, writers, all around 4%, 5%. And so this article is, you know, the paradox here is about, well, is there an economic opportunity? When you look at the actual numbers, the movies with Latinos do about 60% better. Movies with Latino cast do 60% better. In red. How do you define a Latino cast? We take a very broad view of Latino. So, you know, it does it. So one Latin person. You know, a Latino can be someone of Latin American descent. It can be someone Latino descent here in the US. We are in a monolith group. It's a very wide ranging group. So, so Javier Bardem would apply just. It's not as, you know, someone like, you know, Jolo Meridwenio, the star of Copacai, who is the star of Blue Beetle. Like, it's got, it's US Latinos as well as Hispanic people. And people, Spanish descent, it's a, okay. You take out a broad definition of this of you. But, you know, Genoa take is a great example. If you look at Wednesday and how that did in Netflix, that was, that was a hit. So there really is talent out there. It's about getting that talent on screen. And, you know, the purpose of this article wasn't, you know, you know, representation is important. But there's an economic opportunity. Ultimately, we find there's about an 18 billion, 12 to 18 billion dollar opportunity when you put actually Latino talent on screen. Where you actually put Latino talent, you know, in rules that are making a difference. Okay, so let's get into that number. Because the number you put out up to 18 billion dollars, that is an eye popping number. Tell us how you got to that number. So, you know, we did a, we did a number of things. First off, we looked at a variety of, you know, over 10,000 movies. We looked over, you know, 20,000 shows. We did this over, you know, a 10, 15 year period. We then, we did over 100 interviews. So you put all that together, a lot of research went into it. We then looked at box office revenues. We looked at TV streaming revenues. We looked at merchandising according to that. And we made, you know, assumptions based on, you know, where Latinos are actually showing up when you have actually, you know, Latinos on screen versus not. And the numbers showed going back to my last point was that when you actually put Latinos on screen, when you put Latinos in positions that, you know, make a difference, you actually, these films do better. And they do better all around, not only on films, on TV, on streaming, all across the board. It's interesting because if you talk to studio executives, they will say that they are doing much better these days on this front than they ever have in the history of the business. You know, look at a star like Anthony Ramos, who was the lead of the last Transformers movie. And is in the summer's Twisters movie. That is an example of a great actor, you know, came up in Hamilton, who is at least getting a shot to be in these bigger movies. You know, I feel like, Lymann Wilmer and I also had a shot with the Mary Poppins movie that didn't quite work out as well. But do you think the studios are doing a better job today than they were say five or 10 years ago on this front? Yeah, look, I mean, there are some great examples and great wins, right? You know, and there's some great artists. We look at Rachel Zellgler and how she's doing. Danny Ramirez and some great stuff. I think the studios are making a difference. You know, for example, Netflix, you know, the top six shows that they had streaming this last year, you know, had a Latino actor had Latino representation and it did really well. I do think there is, when we look at the data, you know, a difference in marketing budgets, a difference in production budgets. And so when you see, you know, Latino director or Latino producer, you know, what we found is there's 16 upwards of 20% fewer budgets, 20% fewer marketing dollars and those do make a difference. Oh, yeah, Blue Beetle was a DC movie, but it was a lesser DC movie. It was a cheaper DC movie. I believe originally planned for the Mac service. And yeah, that makes a difference. I mean, I don't know if it would have performed with more marketing, but it didn't perform. Yeah. And, you know, I think it actually did really well on streaming. But those, you know, it actually makes a, you know, a difference of, you know, of putting marketing dollars against it, of putting production dollars against it. And that's part of the problem, Matt. Like, you know, you need to get, you know, one film to be a success, you know, get the studios continually excited about it and continually putting that forward. Yeah, I feel like with Asian Americans or with Asian actors, the success of Crazy Rich Asians really helped. And it was a test case, a proof case that the studios could use for an all Asian cast delivering a global hit. I don't know that there has been that example yet for Latino cast. Am I missing something? No, well, one, there isn't a Latino genre. I guess at the beginning, you know, Latinos like to go, they like to see horror, they like to see superheroes, they like to see, you know, them as stem and family folks. And as you said, they over index. It's crazy when you see the numbers each weekend, and Latino audiences are driving some of these big franchises things. Like even this past weekend with the Apes movies, the Apes movies over index with Latinos, you know, fast and furious. You can go downless horror. Latinos are showing up. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big point here, right? They are driving receipts. You know, Latinos compared to white Americans are showing up 30% more. They're showing up the 25% more than African Americans. They are showing up to movies and actually spending. And that makes a big, big difference here. Yeah, the Rachel Zegler example is interesting because there was backlash to her casting in Snow White in particular. And I don't know how Disney is handling that. You know, they dismiss it as noise. They don't care. They picked the best person for the role. But I don't know. I mean, we have Bob Eiger out there saying that they went too far on diversity. And it's got the goal has to be to entertain first. And then have representation as something in the background. I don't know that they would cast Rachel Zegler again in Snow White. It's not representation for representation sake. It's actually about, you know, you put Latinos, great stars, great talent in roles that matter. And you actually have more folks show up. So like Rachel Zegler is a great actress. Now whether, you know, Snow White or not, that's not the point here. The point is that people like her actually drive real box office receipts. And Disney and Bob Eiger are in the business of making money. Yeah. It's not an accident that they are trying to put more, and it's not just Latinos, more diversity into the range because-- Look at the screen. Look at the last screen too, right? And to Latinos there, it indexed very well. You know, that made a real difference. I mean, to your draft tick this year, I think, Jen Overtegan Beetlejuice is going to make a big difference. That's where my money would be. Although, and people think Ariana Grande is Latin, but she actually is not in Wicked. Do not count her. I've got not count Ariana Grande. No, not in this list. That count is not. She is like half Italian, I think. And even that is dubious. Yeah. But look at that, look at a federal pastel, right? He's gone from Narcos to the last of us, right? People are showing up. Not showing up just because he's, you know, but it's part of the-- He doesn't even play Latino half the time. Yeah. You know, like, this isn't about just, you know, putting Latino star or putting Latino supporting star to get more Latinos out. This is about actually attracting and broadening the base across this year. You know, the other one, I think, is interesting is Sofia Vergara in Ricella. You know, we talk about in the report how Latinos are often over indexed in Narca roles and housekeeping roles. But here's an example of a very authentic story that resonated across the spectrum and did really well-- With Sofia Vergara. Yep. That's right. Yeah. The streamers generally have done a better job here. And we've talked about this in the past, the fact that they just have more volume and they have more swings to take. And they are very meticulously going after different audience segments. And the studios that, for the most part now, are in the business of four quadrant global entertainment. They take a more risk averse look at the landscape. And I think it's just fear. How much of this is the C-suite? How much of this is that we don't have Latin or any diversity really in the upper echelon of the movie studios. We now have an Asian-American guy running Netflix film. And we have a woman from Indian descent running all of Netflix content in Bella Bajaria. But beyond that, the top levels are pretty white. Four and a half percent. Four and a half, five percent is the number of C-suite executives. That are Latino. And I think that number is even smaller to the ones that actually matter. Is that just takes the top? These roles make a difference. Even as producers, as directors writers, there's a whole bunch of roles that go into this on green lighting. But it does make a difference. It makes a difference in understanding the stories. It makes a difference in who you actually are going to take a risk on. And time and time again, we hear that that part of the problem is getting greater representation across the Hollywood ecosystem. Yeah, and it's a money issue. It really is. Like that's what's interesting about your study is, we had the Annemburg Inclusion woman in here, Stacey Smith a couple of months ago. And her argument was essentially that this is the right thing to do. And that there should be greater gender diversity because that's what Hollywood should be doing to better reflect the audience out there. You are putting it in stark financial terms here. This is not to be a negative. This is an opportunity, right? No, that's what I'm saying. So like, what would your recommendations be here? Like, what kind of an increase do you want to see? And how would you want to see the Latino representation increase? Like, are you talking like, should there be a quota? Should there be, you know, particular types of projects that get priorities? Like, it's so easy to say, oh, you should do more. But when it comes down to the projects themselves and the castings, it's a very difficult job here. Yeah. Well, one, this is, this is not something that's going to change overnight. And this is, it's not about, you know, setting a limit and, you know, putting what that is, this is about actually making change. You know, part of it is actually looking at data and actually driving incentives, you know, taking an objective look on just some of the performance. I think it starts with, as we said, you know, getting the right decision makers, you know, everyone knows in Hollywood, you know, getting your first break, networking, mentorship, you know, those things actually matter and feeding the pipeline, both, you know, within, within corporate Hollywood, but also, you know, also on screen. I do think there is a role for investing in Latino content. You know, you look at, you know, what Tyler Perry's done, Spring Hill has done. Right? Is there an opportunity to do something similar within the Latino community? And then I think it's, it's, you know, it's, again, not about, you know, representation for representation, say, it's about telling really good stories. I think, you know, people will show up with really good stories. And we've seen it time and time again, you know, across the board with Latinos and Latino stories. Why do Latinos overindex on horror? That has always been something that's been sort of one of those true isms in the entertainment business. And I've never understood it is because there's a, you know, there's a higher percentage that are religious and a lot of the horror stories are set in sort of the religious realm. Or like, what is it? Well, I think this is a great example of someone who's Latina who actually, you know, would understand that and can relate to it, right? Well, I'm, but I'm not asking you to speak for all Latinos here. I'm just, if there is any data that says that, I'm more like, look, I know, I, the data is that Latinos, like you say, show up more than horror is one of the top genres. So, okay, so it's just across the board, they do. There's nothing specific about horror. Well, I think it relates, I think, you know, look, get out more of those, ritualism, you know, religious ritualism. You can go back and, and see a lot of those connections. I think that part of that is, is, is good storytelling. Part of that is, is actually connecting with your audience. And I think they show up because, you know, they relate or have a connection to it. Hmm. Okay. That is fast and furious. What Latina person doesn't love fast and furious. Although everybody loves fast and furious. But they have done a better job in those movies of having died. Yeah, well, I think those, I think that's understanding your audience, right? And I think, I think, I think folks show up Latina's love horror. They love action figures and those movies or stream, you know, TV shows tend to do well. And do you have any data on the international question? Because obviously, when you are green lighting these big $200 million movies, you are considering international. And there's always been this trope that black movies don't play overseas. I think that's been just proven a lot. But is there any data on how movies with Latin stars and cast perform overseas? Well, we looked at the 60% across the board as a global box office number. So, you know, as a full. So just looking at that number accounts for it? Yeah, I mean, you know, across the board, these movies do better. And we were very much focused on what's the bottom line, you know, for these studios when they put let you know, stars on screen. But look, you see, you know, the parasites of the world and the Asian representation and actually bringing content from outside into the US and those do. really well. Are there any particular territories overseas where Latino movies just don't perform? I don't know if there's any one place but I part of it is Latinos are not a monolith group right? You got South Americans you have Puerto Ricans you know I'm Ecuadorian American right? And so it's just a it's a very diverse group and it's hard to get one story right? That came up within the Heights which was a very specific Dominican story yet was marketed to all Latinos. Yeah there there was also discussion of you know a colorism of who you actually cast in those roles and and so I mean that's a great example of a movie that might have the right intention but putting the right person putting the right cast together that actually connects back does does make a difference Latinos do look at that right? All right so bottom line here is if there is money to be made on this and putting more Latinos in front of him behind the camera why aren't the studios doing it? They sit around all day trying to figure out how to make more money yeah why aren't they why aren't they doing it if there is money to be made? The first part of it is just an under appreciation of how Latinos perform of their contribution to Hollywood success you know I think that's part of what this article is trying to do is actually you know make the economic connection and say Latinos are showing up and they can even grow the pie even more if you do it. So it's ignorance? They just don't know I mean they have the data they they put out the data. Yeah I think it's well I think it's treating it's it's treating a group like a niche and these are the drivers of your your Hollywood audience and so I think there is a a shift in mindset of how do you look at this this group versus others? I also think it gets back to our to our other point of having the right representation in roles that do green line and make a difference of what goes on screen and I think that is a thing that will take time but I think it's actually you know quite important you know the other the other part of this also is is actually telling the right stories you know it goes back to like what is the crazy rich Asian version for Latinos that studios get excited about it and keep keep producing? Yeah and maybe because there's no let you know top executives they don't know what those stories are. It does make a difference as part of what we talk about an article. Right all right well it's a very fascinating topic and I know your studies get a lot of pass around within the industry so congrats on that. Thanks for coming on. Yeah thank you Matt. We're back with the call sheet Craig are you excited about if imaginary friends the John Krasinski movie? I think it's an interesting concept it reminds me of the TV show I watched as a kid about imaginary friends on Cartoon Network I think are Nickelodeon. Yeah what kid doesn't love imaginary friends? My kids into it he wants to see it. The tracking for this weekend is anywhere between 35 and 45 the latest number I saw was 42 so that's the number of news it is high which is why I'm gonna take the under on 42 I just think that original family movies have had a hard time I mean we haven't seen an animated original resonate in a huge way since COVID I mean it's kind of unbelievable and inside out two which is not exactly a similar movie but again it's about like a young girl I believe the protagonist of this if movie is a young girl as is inside out two so maybe you know if parents are gonna pick one of these movies to go do they're gonna go on something that they know they love it and a kid loves it inside. Well that's not opening for a month though so they could do both but the thing that this is got going for it is there's not a lot for kids out there I think the bigger threat is the Garfield movie which is coming out from Memorial Weekend but the reviews hit today and they're not great I don't know how much of an adult audience they're gonna get for this. I read that the themes in this movie are a bit darker than people expected. Absolutely which is I think you know and it's got Ryan Reynolds which I think you know he is a meaningful star kids I don't think Krasinski means anything as a director for kids like a from the director of a quiet place comes your your new family comedy but yeah you know it's paramount they've had success recently with these like lower budget movies although this one is 110 they're saying it cost 110 so it does need to resonate globally if they want to justify that cost. The other thing with Ryan Reynolds is I feel like yeah he's been promoting this movie but he hasn't really gone all in in the very Ryan Reynolds way that he typically promotes his movies online. Why do you think that is? I think that's because he's saving it for Deadpool. Deadpool is his signature franchise and he needs that to work so he's saving all of his online juice for later in the summer in July when Deadpool is coming. It's also such a weird clash the Deadpool character and then it's like the kid friendly Ryan Reynolds Christmas movie slash if Ryan Reynolds just it could be more polar upsets. Yeah Scott Mendelssohn compares Ryan Reynolds to Jack Black as an appeal for kid. Yeah sure. One persona that is like Jack Black the comic guy we know and then he's got the cuddly kid persona that kids like I think Ryan Reynolds has a little bit of that going on but yeah sorry jumpers and skiing I'm taking the under on 42 has your son talked about it with you at all. Yeah he's into it he saw the YouTube ads and the billboards he's into it we probably would have gone to the premiere if it was in LA but it was in New York so yeah I don't know he's not he'll see anything though he's not really the barometer for what is gonna hit the over but our most kids that way. Yeah I mean there is an element I think when kids haven't had anything for them out there you know the last movie he saw on theaters was actually he saw Godzilla Kong which he liked not really a kids movie but nothing since the Kung Fu Panda movie so like that's the thing they got going for themselves here. Right well the cast is good in this movie Steve Correll of He Bewell Our Bridge. Yeah no I wanted to succeed you gotta have original franchises this is you know an original franchise play in the summer like if Hollywood can't make these things work anymore then we're all kind of afed because you can only milk the hits for so long and you gotta create new franchises so hopefully it'll it'll prove me wrong but I'm gonna take the under on this one. All right that's the show for today I want to thank my guest Camilo Beck-Dash I want to thank producer Craig Gouroback or editor Jesse Lopez and I want to thank you we will see you one more time this week.