Late-Round Perspectives: Matthew Berry

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. Whether you're a seasoned NFL fan or new to the game, there's one place to keep up with all of it. The league's newest podcast, The NFL Report, hosted by me, Andrew Ceciliano. It is your home for everything football. Breaking news, expert analysis, game picks, and here from your favorite players too. Join me and at All Star Cast of Experts for everything you need to know from around the league. Get new episodes of The NFL Report, Monday through Friday, all season long. Listen to The NFL Report podcast on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Mike Am. And I'm Trevor Sitcoma. And together, we host The NFL Fantasy Football Show. Are you ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Because if you aren't locked in with us on The NFL Fantasy Football Show, you're already playing from behind. Whether you're a first-time player or a grizzled vet chasing another championship, we give you the advantage and the confidence you need to make every move count. Listen to The NFL Fantasy Football Show on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Matthew Berry is the founder of Fantasy Life who hosts the fantasy football Happy Hour. He recently spent time with NBC Sports, and he spent 15 years at ESPN, helping turn the game of fantasy football into the monster that it is today. He's a writer, a dad, and he once played a very important role in Avengers Endgame. These are his late-round perspectives. (upbeat music) This episode is sponsored by DraftKings. We've partnered up with DraftKings again this year for Bestball, and we've got a can't miss offer on their biggest bestball contest ever. $20 million in total prizes. It's DraftOne, GetOne. Draft your team once, no weekly line of management, and your top scorers start automatically each week, all season long. Download the DraftKings Daily Fantasy app and sign up with promo code, late-round. Enter a line up in the $20 million bestball contest for $25 and get a bonus ticket for a second entry, two shots at the title. DraftOne, GetOne, only on DraftKings. The crown is yours. I did Jeff Maughan Rufus P-Body's podcast yesterday, and they said that Jeff told me that he had asked you and that you were busy, and so I was number two, which is fine, but of course, you're getting Matthew Barry, you're getting Matthew Barry, but it reminded me, so you and I have known each other for a really long time now, and you knew me when I was in my early 20s at this point, but I knew you, or I was aware of you when you were literally just publishing the late-round QB guide, like I think on Twitter, and then I think I met you when you started at Number Fire. - Yes. We went back and forth on Twitter. We argued about something. I forget what we argued about, but I know two things. I know two things. We went back and forth on Twitter a little bit. I was a little more fiery on Twitter back then. - I think we all were, where we know. - Like that's the way it was back then, right? - But two things, I think number one is, I think you were right, I forget what the argument was, but I'm pretty sure it was about like, late-round quarterback value, or something like that, and I think you were right, by the way. You've definitely been proven right over the years. So number one is, you definitely were right in that argument, so I apologize for whatever dumb take I had back then. Like you sent me a really sweet DM, and like we just started DMing back and forth or texting back and forth. And so, yeah, so I've known you for a very long time. Not as long, however, as I've known Jeff Ma. I've known Jeff Ma for, I mean, over 20 years. Him and Rufus are brilliant. Well, he texted me, and he's just like, he's like, yo, can you do my podcast? And I was, he texted me while I was on air doing my own show, doing fantasy football happy hour, live at noon on YouTube. Oh, plug that. And I'm a company man. And when I got off it, I was just like, sorry, it's been a crazy day. Wendy need me an hour long. And he's just like, how he already replaced you. So okay, so I didn't know it was with you, but good choice. It reminded me, because like I haven't seen Rufus in particular. I know Rufus more than I had, like I think I had like a couple meetings randomly with Jeff, and I was at Fandall and number fire and stuff. But Rufus, I had seen way back in one of the Sloan conferences. And it reminded, I then told them that I was talking to you today. It reminded me, you probably don't even remember this at all, but back then, back then you were, you know, Matthew Barry to me, right? Obviously, the biggest name in fantasy sports. Now you're just Matthew to me. You know, it's a different kind of relationship. But like, I remember we went to a Celtics game and we were in a box. And the number fire guys went and then like Rufus and his team were there and stuff. And you walked in and you came and you saw me. And in a very loving and like playful way, it wasn't like you were just like, what are you doing here? You know, like a very like just fun, you know, and it was one of those moments for me where I'm like, the thing that I've always respected about the way that you approach things is that, you know, a lot of people who are at the top of their industry can very easily just ignore other folks who are trying to climb up in that industry. But you know, the smaller players and the analysts and the writers and such as they're coming up. And I think that's, you know, it's been something that I've tried to pass on to as I've, you know, gotten to meet people and, you know, they're asking for advice and all that kind of stuff. But I think that like you set that precedent very well. I have to say in the fact that like you're doing big things, you're obviously doing what many people aspire to do. And yet you can still joke around with, you know, 25 year old me at a Celtics game, you know, wondering why I'm sitting in that box with you. Well, I appreciate you saying that. I do remember, I don't remember, I didn't remember that interaction, but I do remember that game. I remember Adam Kaplan's a buddy of mine who was running at number fire at the time. So I remember I was talking with him and there was some other like investor types there. And, you know, and Rufus. And anyway, but I appreciate you saying that. I think it's important when I was just starting out. I remember when I was just starting out, people that I really respected in the industry. You know, and I started out doing baseball, but like Matthew Puglio, who's still at, there's still a rodeo world, the legend, Matthew Puglio or Ron Chandler, baseball HQ, another legendary guy. Like, these were people that were very nice to me when I first started, that were, you know, very kind to me. And so I've, you know, and other people within the industry that, you know, you know, guys like Rick Will for whatever that you, you know, that maybe not everyone knows, but people within the industry know Peter Shanky, who now is my, you know, was running road awire at the time, is now the CEO of fantasy life. So people like that that were incredibly gracious to me when I was, you know, just like some guy that was writing a column on road world that no one had ever heard of. And so, so I've tried very hard to do that. I'm a big believer in, you know, pay it forward and, you know, try to, you know, fantasy football has been really good to me, JJ. I mean, it's everything that I have in my life. I'm not being positious here. Every single thing I have in my life has more or less come because of fantasy football. Fantasy football is what got me out of LA to ESPN, where I met my wife, where I have my family. You know, I, you know, I have, you know, where I live is played for paid for with fantasy football money, you know what I mean? Like this set that I'm, you know, that I'm sent that, you know, and anything that I've done fantasy life is built on the back of, you know, fantasy football. And so, so it's meaningful to me. And so I feel like it's important to me to try to give back to an industry that's been so good to me. And I remember what it was like when I was struggling. And so I've tried very hard to be, you know, helpful and, you know, a number of people, you've never actually, I don't believe you've ever done this. But I cannot tell you how many people in the industry have DMed me or texted me and said, hey, I'm in a negotiation with my company or with another thing, or I'm thinking about leaving this company to go on my own. Or I'm, you know, just, hey, can I talk about the business with you? Can I talk about it? Can you make an introduction for me over here? Can you do this for me? And I always do it. I always say yes. Not like I'm some saint, but just again, because I think that's important because people did that for me when I was starting out. And I think those people that I help, I hopefully they'll do it to other people. And just, again, again, you just kind of try to pay it forward. And it's always, it always remains private. I don't, I never talk about anything I ever talk with any of the people. But, so I appreciate you saying that. And truthfully, swinging back to Jeff and Rufus. And I'm going to, I'm going to kind of, I'm going to circle back on two things here and tie it into the advice that we're given, the young people as we sit here on, you know, which is, you know, Jeff's an old friend. And I would have been happy to help it out. But the truth is, is that you're actually, I've never listened to Beth the process. But just knowing Jeff is like one of the smartest people I know in my entire life. Right, right. He's truly brilliant. Like he, right. MIT, like if people don't know Jeff Ma's story, like he was, you know, if you ever see the movie 21 or read the book, bringing down the house about the, you know, the MIT card counting kids that took Vegas for millions. Like, Jeff Ma was the center of that. That was, that was his story. And the movie 21 is about Jeff Ma's life or a portion of his life. And so in Rufus is, you know, a professional better at the highest level. And like they're both really, really smart. And so I would actually think you and the way you approach sports and fantasy from your analytical point of view, I, you're, you're actually a better fit for that show than I am. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, but it's true. You know what I mean? And this is the part about circling back to advice. I think it's really important. Because if you're a content creator and you're trying to get into the space. In whether it's fantasy or whatever, yeah. I think it's really important to know what you are and know what you're not. Yes. And like I, yeah, like a quote that I, I use all the time I've written about this before. You know, when I was just starting out, like I was trying to like be, you know, I'd try to be like super stat heavy. And then I would try to be like Mr. X's and O's and I was trying to find myself. There's a Jimmy Buffett quote where they asked him about his success and I'm a massive, you know, as people know, I'm a massive Jimmy Buffett fan and saw 45 shows of his before he passed away. But Jimmy said in an interview once, he said, you know, he's like, I'm an okay guitar player and a so, so singer. But what I'm truly great at is being Jimmy Buffett. And I thought about that, I've thought about that quote a lot, you know, and like the minute I heard that quote and this was many years ago, I just sort of relaxed. And I said, oh, because like, you know, I'm pretty good with stats, but like, I'm not as good as with, I'm not, you're better at stats than I am, like significantly better. Like I'm not, I'm not as good as you or Mike Clay, or, you know, some of the people that, you know, I really respect in our industry that are really, really, you know, Dwayne McFarlane, or at fantasy life, you know, Dwayne, Dwayne would laugh at my Excel spreadsheet, you know, and so like, I'm not as good at numbers as people like, they're like, I can watch film, but there are definitely like, there are ex-players that are, you know, there are people that can break down film better than I can. And, you know, I have a decent amount of sources at this point in my career around the NFL in terms of coaches, general managers, that sort of thing, but I'm not Adam Schaefter, you know. But what I am, I think I'm really good at being Matthew Barry. And I've found, you know, a decent amount of people that enjoy Matthew Barry. And so I've just, I've just tried to sort of be me and give my advice and give it in a way that I find, you know, that I think is entertaining and enjoyable and, you know, easily digestible. And, you know, understanding sort of my audience. And I think you specifically also do a really good job of that. I think, you know, everything you've built with late-round, I think you've really catered, you've developed a community around yourself, you've developed a business that, you know, I think you, you understand the lane that you're in. And you just, you know, you nail that lane as opposed to trying to be something you're not. And that's, and I think sometimes people in our industry try to be something they're not. If that makes sense. I would 100% agree. I mean, I think authenticity is unbelievably important for anything you're doing, let alone if you're going to be consumer facing the way that we are, right? People can see right through it. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm grinding film the way that some other folks are. You know, I'm watching every game. I can tell you what I am doing and what I, what I can provide. But I'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not, you know, I'm going to lean into the stuff that I think that I can do well. And hopefully, you know, people resonate with it. And we can kind of go from there. Also, don't sell yourself short. Or I say this about like field yates all the time too. I've said this to him. But like, being able to do what you guys have done in front of a camera is far more difficult than anyone can even comprehend. Like just being able to speak consistently, coherently, be able to get a thought out in a 30 second clip. That's why like, you know, I've done TV. I've done rate. I like the mediums that I do my stuff on. I love podcasting, for instance, because I know that the way my brain works and I know the way that I want to talk about things and such. And so again, going back to like doubling down on what you know that you can do or what you feel most comfortable doing. I think is important, even from that perspective, because like you go watch like field on TV or you on TV. But well, you know, I don't want to get your ego to too high. I don't know. Feel just terrific. I I literally just had field on my show today. Field tripping. There's no. And he like, there's no. There's no stuttering. There's no stumbling. It's just he knows what he's doing. He's getting the point across. And obviously there's a lot of practice and and, you know, reps and and getting to that point. But he's just so good at what he does. It's like the way that like Ryan C. Crest is, right? Where he's just so phenomenally good. And you can't pick apart like you can sit there and be like, oh, he's just a host. That's all he's been. It's really hard. It's not easy to do that kind of stuff. And that's why, you know, he's as good as getting as much money as he's getting doing that stuff. Yeah. I mean, what people don't realize is that, you know, while field or myself or whoever is doing something, doing that on TV, you know, you saw me on, you know, if you saw me on football night in America last year. So what you're seeing. So I'm sitting here talking about, here's my parlay that I like or here's a player that I like or here's, you know, here's a, you know, a prop that I like. And so what you don't, so you hear me talking about, well, I think this and I think this and I think that. But what you don't realize is that I've got something in my ear. You're right. And an IFB. And somebody is in my ear saying, oh, you know, over to Maria, throw two, you know, what I mean? Like, okay, graphic 10, 9, 8, they're literally counting down. And you've got to be off the air at zero. Like, you know, eight, seven. And so you're talking, well, they're in your ear counting down, five, four, three, two, one, Maria. You don't mean to mean like you're hearing that in your ear while you're trying to talk and, and appear smooth. And then, you know, so they know, and, you know, whether it's football night in America or sports center or NFL live or any of the programs that field or I or other people do, that's all happening because, you know, here's this graphics coming. Here's this video that's coming, you know, you need to throw over here, you need to send it to this person, you know, sound on tape, 10, nine, you know, five, back and four, three, two, back to you. You know, and so anyone that's on TV doing that. And I think the other piece of it is, is like being able to do that in an entertaining, you know, way, right? Because, you know, we could, we could talk about Josh Jacobs and Marchan Lloyd, right? The Packers Backfield, right? We could talk about that. And you and I could do an entire hour podcast on that in terms of, no, we could, like, and not just do an eye, but like literally anyone in the fantasy community that's like, you know, that's, that's a, that's a real person could do, you know, in terms of roster construction and, and risk tolerance and, you know, what we think about Lloyd and what was his profile coming out of college and, you know, what are the prospects for, you know, for Jacobs? And do we think Caleb Johnson gets an opportunity, finally, and blah, blah, blah, blah, we could literally do an hour. Yeah. But then you go on whether it's sports center or football, not America, wherever, any program, they're going to be like, okay, great, need you to talk about Josh Jacobs and Marchan Lloyd and you've got 30 seconds. Oh, it's impossible. So trying to synthesize a bunch of complex thoughts into a, you know, into literally 30 seconds, where it doesn't, where it doesn't sound like you're doing this to the, you know, where you're, where you're talking slow and confident so that the viewer who may not be fully paying attention can appreciate it. So, yeah, there is a skill set. I mean, you know, I've written about this before. I have, I wrote a column about sort of my, my 10 biggest pieces of advice to get the career you want. And one of the things I wrote is just about, you know, just being able to be versatile and being good. And like, I, you know, listen, I, like, when I was at ESPN or NBC, you know, I had varying degrees of ability at all these things. But one of the things that I think ESPN appreciated about me and NBC appreciated about me and that's served me well in my career is that whether it was a 30 second hit on sports center, whether it was an eight minute radio hit, whether it was a, you know, my own half hour show, whether it was a, you know, three hour fantasy football now, or whether it was a 5,000 word column, or a 45 second TikTok. Right. Like, I could do the content within that format, you know, at a competent level on all of them. Again, I'm better at some of them than I am with others, but I was reasonably competent and, you know, reasonably entertaining at all of them. And so that's the, that's the key just being able to be, to be good at all that stuff. Or if you know you're not, you know, JJ, as you said, like, hey, I'm more comfortable in this format versus this. Like, you know, I'd much rather do a podcast where I can control everything versus live TV. And that's not a knock on you. It's just, but again, knowing what you're good at and knowing that you're not, and trying to do more of what you're good at. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I do want to ask you, like, what do you think when you look at the fantasy landscape now, this could be industry related, you know, business related, but this could also just be, you know, analysis related. What do you think has changed the most through the years? Last 10, 15 years within the space, you know, obviously it's changed, but what do you think is like the biggest thing? Like, if you were to place yourself in 2010 versus right now, what would you be most shocked by? God, I mean, I mean, how to, we could spend the whole hour just on that. I mean, the thing that I would be most, I was going to answer something different until you phrased it like, what's the thing I'd be most shocked by? I think I would be most shocked by is the fact that I'm in Avengers Endgame. I mean, like, and not, and I'm not bringing that up in a, like, just reminded you, I'm in a big movie, but no, it's not that it's not being a bit like that. It is the fact that I'm in that movie entirely because the director Joe Russo is in like four fantasy leagues and is a big fan of mine. He loved hate for years and we got introduced by a mutual friend and we became friends and then he would text me for fantasy advice and then we like, we grabbed dinner a couple of times and then we played in a fantasy league together and then he was just like, hey, you want to be in the movie? That opportunity, just the idea. And by the way, I mean, yes, he's a super powerful guy. So, but just the fact that like, Marvel wasn't like, wait, what? You like, you want to give a cameo to the fantasy football guy? Are you kidding me? You don't mean the fact that that didn't happen or maybe it did in Joe is like, yeah, too bad. I'm doing it. I don't know what happened, but whatever, I'm in the movie and that's the thing that would shock me the most. But at a larger level, JJ, I think the thing that shocked me the most is just how prevalent fantasy football has become. I always knew it would be popular. I always knew, you know, this is something really fun. I always knew there was a business case. I spent so many of my early years at ESPN. I got to ESPN in 2007. So 2010, I'm still like banging the table and being like, you got to do, can we do a fantasy segment? Can we do one on sports center? Can we, you know, can I get on, you know, Mike and Mike or the herd, you know, with Colin? What can I, you know, how can we do fantasy? It's something that's important to our audience. It's something that's It's important to the business of ESPN, a bunch of different ways. It's something that's really popular that if we, if we can grow it, it will be beneficial of everyone. So, you know, I knew it was, I knew it was fun and addicting and that if we could get in front of more people, more people would do it. But like for me, I, you know, I sit here and I, you know, I literally, this is the first thing that popped in my mind. But this morning, I was on Instagram, I was scrolling Instagram and I follow Kaley Hartung, so my friend, she was my colleague at ESPN and my, now I'm, was my colleague at NBC, so I've known Kaley for a zillion years. She's awesome. And one of the things she does is, you know, she does the Amazon Thursday night, but she's also part of the today show on her Instagram story. She had something about like, you know, hey, Kaley Hartung, you know, and it was like a thing for the today show, like, you know, Kaley Hartung helping up this fantasy draft. And at the end of the year, she's going to be part of this team, you know, this league's loser punishment. I didn't watch the piece. I just saw like a little behind the scenes thing on her Instagram, but I'm just like, but just think about that. Take for it. Like, if you told me in 2010, oh, by the way, one of the reporters of the today show is going to do some sort of segment with a fantasy league draft and it sounds like maybe they'll follow this league throughout the year or they'll be a payoff at the end where she, she's part of the loser punishment or something like, like any of that stuff, like you, you know, you see like whatever bar stool or, you know, all the social media accounts do it now. So all the fantasy loser punishments, that's become part of our culture. Right. So I wrote about it in fantasy life in my book. And it was one of the things that I tried to, I sold, which you can get into that in a second, but like the fantasy punishments is one of the things that helped me sell the book because the publishers thought it was funny. And so it's now become this thing where it's like literally, it's part of our culture. Everywhere, everywhere. Other things that I would say is I think in terms of the analysis, the analysis has gotten a lot better, a lot sharper and smarter. We've had people that have pushed the ball forward, waiting on quarterback seems like, you know, right now it's like, oh yeah, yeah, of course, everyone waits on a quarterback. But like when you, when you push that theory for the first time, everyone's like, you know, what? No, you have to shaft, you know, a superstar quarterback and like, you know, like, and so I just think there's a lot of people that have, that have really pushed the ball forward in terms of, you know, data analysis and just, you know, how smart and detailed the advice has gotten. Yeah. One of the things that I sort of, that made me, that made my career is when I was starting out in '07 that I was like, you know, I was comfortable on TV. I was comfortable in front of a microphone and there were a lot of the people that were doing fantasy analysis and there weren't very many back then. But a lot of the people that were doing that just weren't comfortable on TV. They were more comfortable buying a screen, writing, whatever. Right. Right. But now, you know, thanks to podcasts, thanks to YouTube, you know, thanks to like, you know, not just ESPN, but a lot of different places having fantasy shows, fantasy TV shows or at least, you know, digital, digital shows, like, there's a lot more people that are good on camera. Right. Right. Good in front of a microphone that are good on the radio, right? We've got a 24/7 fantasy sports radio channel that, you know, fantasy life, we've got to show on and, and a lot of the people on that show on that channel, you know, do great work. So the fact that there's more people doing that, the fact that there's so many people that, when I started out, the idea that you could make a living, the fantasy football analysis was like, well, maybe if you've got a job with like Yahoo or ESPN, like one of the big boys. I mean, even, even I was making, you know, I was making nothing at number fire, right? I was a startup, you know, I was, I was young. It didn't really, I just wanted to do it. But even when I got that job, I had a full-time job working in the fantasy space. There were probably only, there were probably less than 20 people on earth that were like doing it full-time at the time. You know, like that, and like, when I, when I give it that perspective, it's kind of crazy because now we obviously have a lot, you know, it's very difficult still to be able to do this as a job. And I think both of us are grateful for that every single day. But you know, back then it was, it was like, there was literally like nothing. There was just not a lot of this going on, you know, at all in terms of the full-time jobs. Right. And now you see, you know, we did this with focus, you know, and like the footballers, like, there's a lot, you know, there's podcasts at the Ringer Guys, like, you know, there's, they're doing live events. Right. You know, we're selling out shows for people that listen to other people talk about fake football. Yeah. They're like, you know what I want to do tonight? I'm going to pay, I don't know what the tickets cost. But I get, here's 20 bucks, and I'm going to get a sitter. And me and the wife are going to go watch Andy Johnson and Mike. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, which is awesome, you know, and so I think just the proliferation of that, you know, so many people, there's a lot of really good websites out there, including yours, where people are making a living, being out on their own, you know, I'm making a go of it with fantasy life. And, you know, the other thing that I would say, so just sort of the, you know, the popularity, I think the analysis has gotten a lot better, the mainstream. And also the other big thing that's changed the most is information, information and technology. Right. So technology, just in just the, you know, the improvement of the apps and, you know, you know, that's an easy one. But just information, you know, when you think about Twitter back in the day, again, I sound like, you know, back in my day, you know, we had to walk 12 miles uphill both ways. So you know, I sound like, you know, some old dude, but I felt like JJ even back when you were just starting at number fire, like there weren't a lot of people giving out information. Mm-hmm. I mean, like, in terms of, and now, you know, the key was trying to find information. Wait, who's going to be the backup running back? Hey, you know, how, how hurt is that? You know, and now I feel like it's, it's less about finding information, there's nothing but information. Exactly. You know, Twitter is, it's, now it's about trying to sift through the information and being like, I believe that guy, I don't know what's pertinent, yeah, what's pertinent. That's, you know, again, like, you know, it's just become this 24/7 news cycle, like, you know, best shape of his career. They're all in the best shape of their career, you know, so it's trying to figure out what's real and what's not versus, that's been a big shift, I think, as well. Yeah. Yeah, I actually tweeted about that yesterday where Graziano had his bold predictions piece that he wrote on ESPN and, you know, it was really interesting information and such, but all of these aggregators and all these news sites were pulling it in as if it was a factual news items, you know, like, one of them was like, how, how he believed that Blake Korum could be the, the one A in the back though, but no, it was a bold prediction that he was writing about, right? Right. Yeah. That Blake Korum played really well. And if he continues to play well, then this might be able to happen as opposed to reporting it as this factual, you know, Blake Korum is going to be the one A in the backfield, you know? And so that's, that's, that's one of the, you know, one of the things going, going back to the, like, sifting through what's relevant, it feels like that kind of stuff is everywhere right now. Well, yeah. And the aggregation stuff is like out of control, right? And so like, I get it on some level, like, it's, you know, it's unfortunate. That's sort of the way the business is gone. Right. You know, it's just, I mean, I get aggregated, right? And it's like, you know, I wrote about this, like, you know, I wrote my, again, I'm, I'm not meaning to be as, as, as pluggy as I probably sound, but you know, but like, so my, my love hate column this year, my preseason love hate column, which is on fantasylife.com. But like, I wrote about that, like, because I was still on a contract with NBC, NBC was making changes to football night in America, you know, there was like nine people on it last year, they're going to four this year. And so, and my contract was coming up with NBC. So my status with them was uncertain. And so they, you know, a website wrote a big article is like Matthew Berry, unlikely to return to, you know, football night in America, whatever, like our likely out at football night in America. Yeah. And it was just sort of like, well, I'm still on a contract and like, we're still having conversations. And, you know, I'm in NBC knew, like, we talked for a year about, hey, like, I really want to go, you know, try to build up fantasy life. Like, maybe there's a way to, for us to still do something together, but, you know, entrepreneurial owning and promoting and doing fantasy life is really important to me. That's why I left ESPN in the first place was I wanted to be entrepreneurial. I wanted to build my own thing. And so, and then what happened is is that that article from awful announcing, which if you read the article was very balanced and fair, but the article, but the headline was, I'm out at, you know, football night in America. But the, the article was just, hey, they're making changes, rumored to, you know, getting Mike Tomlin. Some people have, you know, announced that they're leaving, very still into contract, but it ends soon. And so, there's conversations, wow, it's all very fair, you know, and, you know, and talked about, and everyone knows very wants to be entrepreneurial and, you know, owns a site fantasy life. And it was a very fair article to me. And then, but like, you know, all these newspapers, then picked it up and like, it got spun and spun and spun and like, literally to the point where like, like the New York Post and all these other places picked it up and like, like, to the point where my daughter is like a day or so after the article came out, my daughter's, my 14 year old daughter's came to me and said, dad, did you get fired? Right. Right. You know, and like, because everyone in class was talking about it and, you know, and it was like, no, I didn't get fired, you know, and anyway, so, yeah, the aggregation thing is, is crazy and, you know, I mean, like, I literally didn't interview the other day. And I was asked a direct question on a podcast. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so where I just answered the question and then article. Anyway, whatever. Right, returning into something. They turned into something that wasn't intended. Yeah. No. It was, it's all I did was answer it. I was asked a question directly and they, and I answered the question, honestly, because that's how I do it. And then they just, yeah, there was a bunch of articles about like, oh, Matthew Barry is doing this and doing this. And it's like, no. Right. Right. So, yeah. So I live in that world as we all do. So it's, that's another change since, uh, since when I started. Yeah. Yeah. Or since 2010, I guess. Yeah. 100%. I'm Britt Coleman. And I'm Trevor Sikama. We've never watched a game and wondered what really made the difference beyond the final score. That's exactly why we created NFL Pro Stroke, Got a Manwide Open, Touchdown, Steyhawks. Every week we use exclusive next-gen stats insights and NFL content to break down the biggest stories, matchups, and moments from around the league. We go beyond the box score to uncover the numbers, the tendencies, and details that help explain what actually happened on the field. And don't worry, this isn't just a show for stats experts, we use advanced analytics to help tell the story behind the game, turning the numbers into insights that every fan can understand and enjoy. So whether you're a casual fan learning more about football or a hardcore fan who can't get enough analysis, our goal is to help you see the game in a whole new way. If you've ever wanted to know why a playwork, how a matchup was won, or what most fans missed on Sunday, NFL Pro delivers insights you simply can't get anywhere else. Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your phone, yes, the new NFL season is here, and you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61 last year. We had Mike McDonald, Sam Darnal on the field after the game, but that was last year. If you're a football sickle like me, NFL Daily is your kind of show. It is in the name NFL Daily fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. Matthew Stafford coming off his MVPC on a dazzling darts from Matthew Stafford. Big-time trades that shake up the NFL. AJ Brown is loose. And of course, those Seahawks trying to run it back and win another Lombardi trope. The Seahawks win Super Bowl 60, they are bringing Lombardi back to the Northwest. If it's happening on a football field, NFL Daily will cover it. Listen to NFL Daily on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. All right. Let me ask you a kind of broad hypothetical fantasy football question here. So if you were allowed to know the final stat line of any player in fantasy, you know, they're end of season stat line right now, what player would you want to know? Well, I mean, the, you know, the easy and cheating answer is Josh Jacobs. I mean, I mean, like, you know, Josh Jacobs and Martian Lloyd, like that would be helpful, I think. But taking that one aside, like the two names that came to mind, I'll just, I'll give it to I know yes for only one. Malik neighbors, right? Could be a league winner. Is he a top five fantasy wide receiver or is he more like where he's going right now? Like. And then Jordan Tyson. I've a ton of Jordan Tyson and dynasty. I love Jordan Tyson, you know, so when does, when does he come back? How productive is he? So those would be the two that I might say right there is neighbors in Tyson. Yeah. I like those answers. I thought one guy that I thought of was CMC just because we know that he can break fantasy. And if, and if we see that end of season stat line and it's garbage, then we know, okay, we're going to throw some darts at, you know, Kalon Black or Jordan James and such just to see. Like the, the, the, the neighbors and Tyson stuff that I remember I went on your show and I talked about Jordan Mason as being one of the targets and obviously, you know, a couple weeks later, what people thought was inevitable ended up being inevitable with that, with that hammy. I'll give you one more to that. Yeah. A good one is where she writes. Oh, that's another one. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I still, I, even to this day, I don't know what to do with where she writes. Yeah. It's, it's tough. I did a red at AMA and one of the questions that I got asked was why isn't anyone talking about Rishi Rice? He's like, you know, I follow a bunch of guys and I just feel like no one's talking about Rishi Rice. And I said, I think it's because I don't want to speak for the fantasy industry as a whole, but if I had to guess, I know why I haven't spoken a lot about Rishi Rice is because I just don't know. And that, you know, like, honestly, like, I don't know what to say in that, and then, and then most of what I would have to say is fairly negative, right? I don't know how healthy is, I don't know how bad the off the field issues are. I don't know what his role is going to be relative to a healthy, Xavier worthy. And, you know, and, and, right, and Ken Walker that they paid a lot of money to that they clearly want to make running the ball an emphasis. How healthy is my homes? We don't know how healthy my homes is. You've got, you know, Kelsey coming back for his swan song, you know, I mean, just there's just so many in a, in a division where we think it's going to be a lot more competitive for the chiefs than it has been, you know, during their dynasty run where like, you know, obviously, the Broncos were great last year. We like the chargers a lot. Yeah. I think the Raiders will be more competent than they were last year, like, like, he's great, but like, if he doesn't get the volume that he's gotten previously, like, is he, I mean, there's just, there's so many unknowns with Rishi Rice. And, you know, if you tell me he's a top five fantasy wide receiver this year, I'd be like, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it was, he was in and out of the lineup. And he's just kind of like, kind of like what Xavier worthy was last year. Like a couple of, you know, decent games, but mostly disappointment. I'd be like, yeah, see that too. I think that a lot of that is like our subconscious. That's like, we know that Rishi Rice is not like when you look at who he's drafted amongst, right? And I understand why he's drafted where he's drafted, of course, because when he's been healthy, he's been that like PPR scammer, right, where he gets those low A dot looks and he's good after the catch and he can make things happen. But the problem is like, we of course want to evaluate talent and real football because talent is what's longer lasting and it's not as, you know, fickle and so messed up. Let's say from one year to the next and fragile, right? And I think with Rishi Rice, we're looking at a fairly fragile profile. It's the same thing that people have kind of leaned into with Kyron Williams over the last couple of years where it's like, he's a solid player. I mean, I would probably say that Kyron's better at his position, arguably than what Rishi Rice is to his position. But even still it's this idea of fragility. Because the talent level is not necessarily up to the standard of what you would expect from a player that you're drafting as early as you're drafting. And I think, you know, with Kyron Williams, we started to see it during the second half of last year. You know, they started to use Blake Kornmore. And by most advanced metrics, you know, I'm not I'm not fading Kyron this year by any means, but like by most advanced metrics, Blake Kornam was just as good if not better than Kyron Williams last year, right? And with Rishi Rice, it's like, you look at who he's being drafted around and you're like, well, George Pickens is clearly a better, just pure wide receiver, traditional wide receiver than what Rishi Rice, Oh, Devante Smith, who will get to in a second, clearly a better talented, more talented wide receiver than Rishi. And you just go down the line. You're like, Zay flowers and Jaylen Waddle. You're like, these guys are just better players, but obviously, you know, we're playing a game of fantasy football. We want to lean into that as well. And so it's just a really, really tough balance, I think, with Rice. Right. Because by the way, the argument is is like, yeah, but he's in a, Rice is in a better environment. So then you're like, wait, is he? Is he? I mean, right? Right. Because I mean, like, you know, prior to last year, you'd have said, like, it's Andy Reed. It's Patrick Mahomes, you know what I mean? But like, I got sort of like, I don't know, they're going to be like, sort of run heavy with a limping Patrick Mahomes. Right. Yeah. That's a good one. It's a really good one. To speak of Devante Smith though, he is officially your ride or die this year. I do want to ask like, obviously, there's, there's pressure in that. Like even, even, you know, I do, I do the fantasy footballers MVP show every year. And I have to give the one player that, that a fraction of, you know, some, some audience will only hear me talk once a year, and it's going to be whatever I say on that show, right? And so there is even some pressure just with that. Like, you want to be right, of course. This is that on, you know, a massive scale of, do you lose sleep over this pick? And how did you come to the decision of Devante Smith this year? So dancing the first question, yes, because it, because let's be honest, I need a hit. And so it was so, I was running so hot for a long time, like from, you know, from, from Eckler to Jalenhurtz to I'm on Ross St. Brown, right? You know, I mean, I've done it for, I've done the ride or die pick for nine. This is Devante Smith is number 10. So I've done it for nine years. One of them, Darius Geiss, you know, he ended up tearing his ACL like a week later. So that one doesn't count, right? But of the, of the nine that I've done, eight have played a full season in the NFL or eight have played that year. And of the eight, four of them, the three that I mentioned, Hertz Eckler and, uh, I'm on Ross. And then, uh, Kareem Hunts, rookie year, all finished top four at the position. Just massive hits. Yeah, huge. Massive wins. Like, those were all the breakout years for all four of those guys. And then I've had two others that have finished ahead of ADP. So six out of eight have nailed, but I'm already in Hampton last year. I consider a hit, but like, you have to squint to get there, right? I mean, because he was, when he was healthy, he was good. He's good, right? You know, and I think, I think he finished his like RB 13 on points for a game basis. And at the time that I named him, he was like going as RB 20. Yeah. But again, he, you know, and I, I had to name him like at the Hall of Fame game. So before, before, you know, Alton Slater got hurt and, you know, his offensive line was decimated. And so I consider that like, you have to squint to get it. I consider to win. Kyler was bad, you know, two years ago. So I kind of, I need to hit J.J. Like, you know, I think most people like, yeah, okay, I'm Aaron Hampton. That was all right. But, you know, Kyler was a miss. So I need to hit. And, you know, it's so frustrating about the Kyler one, J.J. is, my producer, Damien, he'll back me up on this. But like, you know, working through all of it, I wanted desperately, desperately to make Jaden Daniels my right or die that year. I was his rookie year, but I'm just like, you know, and again, I'm doing it on NBC like, you know, it's going to be my big thing the first preseason game of the year the Hall of Fame game And I'm just like everyone knows I'm a am I really doing this with a rookie quarterback with the commanders? And yeah, I was gonna just accuse me of being a homer because they all know that's my team and just and I chickened out And I was like well Kyler's a safe pick and You know and I like Kyler that you're too for when it's worth so I was right there with you. It was a good pick You know, I know he was he was I thought so too, you know, I mean and I'm in on Kyler this year again So you know never never wrong just early If he has a big year in Minnesota, but yeah, you know, I was so mad at myself because what I should have done I should have just gone with the initial gut and gone Jayden and that would have obviously been a massive hit his rookie year So in terms of Devonte Smith and then last year with Amari and Hampton I went to this and this you just start second guessing yourself, right? Yes, and last year It was just like I wanted to do Jackson Smith and Jigba and but I'm just like I have that's so obvious You know to mean like well, you know, he's gonna be the main guy in Seattle and who knows what Sam Darnell and they're gonna run and anyway And then of course obviously Jason has a monster year so for Devonte Smith I He was my right or die since late February Obviously, he's a great wide receiver. I remember talking to it the combine. I every year I do this thing called I go to the combine and I do a rumors column Yeah, one of the most helpful columns every I mean genuinely like that's that's it's very very good every year Thank you very much. Well, it's it's one of my most fun columns to write because I basically you know I just start listen. I am not a journalist which I'm definitely not I'm not breaking news. I'm not reporting this This is just these are drunk. These are rumors. I heard drunk at a bar at 2 a.m. Right, right, but Generally speaking drunk at a bar at 2 a.m. Is when you get sort of the good stuff and like, you know That's that's where I got Tom Brady was gonna go to the bucket ears, which was one of the, you know Yeah biggest that column and so This year one of the things I got was you know from an Eagles team source was basically like we think Devonte Smith Has another gear that is good as he's been He can get to another level that if he ever got the kind of target chair that Jackson Smith and Jigba got last year He would have that kind of season like you think he's got that level of ability in him And so that two things that told me and so we talked a little bit more about it It was like number one was like, well, AJ Brown's definitely gone Which obviously ended up happening like two months later, but also that like is he sort of think about it with Devonte Smith that He's somebody that's been productive, you know Every year of his career, right somebody that like I don't need him to I don't need him to learn anything new Right, he's already an elite separator. He's already an elite route runner. He's already you know elite at earning targets I just need to do more of it. Yeah, yeah, got like AJ Brown and is almost 30% target share leaving the team Right, and so all the numbers any any time Devonte Smith is you know, he earns, you know He's he's got like something at least a 25% target share any time AJ Brown has not been on the field Yeah, yeah, and anytime he gets a 25% target share He's averaging think over the last two years when he's gotten at least a 25% target share He averaged at 17.3 fantasy points for game. Yeah, it's for come Sarah's and last year George Pickens wide receiver five average 17.2 So here's a guy that's going before I announced it was going in the wide receiver Yeah, can we can we talk about how mad I am that I had him as a player to target in the draft guy to now I'm like barely ahead of ADP after you announce a spade It does have that effect which is annoying and and so the other so so that's the challenge is trying to find a player Jonah Coleman not like Jonah Coleman a lot. He's one of my sleepers this year But like no, that's not a rider die like a rider die as somebody that's already a productive player already a player that's going to be drafted I mean like you know when I when I named Austin Echler like he was still like a you know, he was an RB two He was going at the end of the second round. Right. I just said this guy's gonna be a top five guy, you know or or I'm on Ross St. Brown was going in the middle of the second round like he was you know, he was still like a you know high-end wide receiver two at the time So they're all the ideas. It's always like it's a known guy. It's you know, it's not a surprise Jalen hurts was like QB eight The year I named him, but it's it's somebody that I think takes the next level and so I do think I have Devonte at at wide receiver 10 So I'm as it as a you know top 10 wide receiver, but I think top five wide receiver is within the range of outcomes for Devonte Smith So none of these are ever sure things, but I just I felt like Like I believe in the talent. I will you know ever since he came out of college roll tide and I believe in the role. There's a little bit of a question mark around You know if this Sean Manion offense, you know, it's another offense a coordinator for Jalen hurts who's had so many over the years He's never been a he's never been an alpha wide receiver one for an entire season if defences try to bracket him and Double him what's what's the effect of effectiveness there? So there's definitely ways that it could go wrong injuries always a concern, but Yeah, I needed a hit and the other guy that I was strongly considering JJ was Colston, Loveland Mm-hmm, and I thought that I Have Loveland higher than consensus in my overall ranks But I have met Titan three right and everyone has them at Titan three exactly right right and so You know the path to quote getting credit for the call. Yeah, just like you know does what what's the likelihood of him? You know upstaging bowers and McBride and you know failing health concerns with the other guy like Not great. Yeah, like we like McBride, so it's sort of like That was that was the that was what you know, I mean a lot more good but that was basically the That was the idea. I love the pick this year. I'm again I'm kind of mad that you've made the pick, but I do like the pick overall I'm Britt Coleman and I'm Trevor Sikama. Have you ever watched a game and wondered what really made the difference beyond the final score? That's exactly why we created NFL Every week we use exclusive next-gen stats insights and NFL content to break down the biggest stories Machups and moments from around the league we go beyond the box squad to uncover the numbers the tendencies and Details that help explain what actually happened on the field fires it out the flag to Barclay to beat one man Spence passed another leap so good for And don't worry. This isn't just a show for stats experts We use advanced analytics to help tell the story behind the game Turning the numbers into insights that every fan can understand and enjoy So whether you're a casual fan learning more about football or a hardcore fan who can't get enough analysis Our goal is to help you see the game in a whole new day if you've ever wanted to know why a playwork How a matchup was won or what most fans missed on Sunday NFL Pro delivers the insights you simply can't get anywhere else Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast The new NFL season is here and you should be listening to NFL daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61 last year we had Mike Bicdonald Sam Darnell on the field after the game But that was last year if you're a football sicko like me NFL daily is your kind of show It is in the name NFL daily fresh content in your feed every day all season long Matthew Stafford coming off his MV PC on a dazzling Darts from Matthew Stafford Big-time trades that shake up the NFL AJ Brown is loose and of course those C-Hawks trying to run it back and win another Lombardi trope The C-Hawks win Super Bowl 60 They are bringing your Lombardi back to the Northwest if it's happening on a football field NFL daily will cover it Listen to NFL daily on the iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast Look, we can't we can't do a show this week without talking about the Josh Jacob situation You know, I think prefacing with just that it's unfortunate and terrible on every level like these things right is very Importance that people understand that we're not coming at this from a perspective of like defending anything like that It's a strictly fantasy football advice right he is like everyone else in America He is innocent until proven guilty right but what he has been accused of is horrific exactly and awful Neither you nor I are trivialized you want to trivialize what he's been accused of because what he's been accused of is truly heinous Yeah, but it's a fantasy football show and when the lead running back of one of the best team one of the better offences in the NFL is Placed in the commissioners and semplists and there is a fantasy football trickle down effect of that and we need to talk about it Yeah, so my question is Where are you ranking Marsh on Lloyd but beyond that like what are your expectations like how are you viewing this situation? You can even discuss what you think will go down with Jacob's if you have any take there You know if it's going to be a he'll come back halfway through where it's not you know I saw shefter tweet yesterday that or at least it was on a podcast and I think it was taken transcript from the podcast and again who knows what the stuff that we were talking about earlier But you know said something along the lines of like that he would would be kind of surprised if anything really happens until after the court date Which is in November but regardless of all of that like where are you ranking Marsh on Lloyd right now? I am a 25 running back 25 you know 65 overall. So you know six seventh round depending on the size of of your league I have him basically I have him after high upside but slightly questionable lead backs I have him after like Jadarian price and baseball toton. I'm ahead of I have him but I have him ahead of some of the the committee guys, like the Patriots guys, you know. So I haven't right there and kind of be as a flex play. We like the role. Like so the Patriot, the Packers, since Matt LaFlure took over as head coach of the Green Bay Packers. Green Bay is fourth in running back fantasy points. It's a productive role. A lot of that's Aaron Jones and Josh Jacobs, but it's a productive role. And we like the offense. So, you know, I always say JJ that fantasy success comes from literally two things and two things only. Talent and opportunity, right? We like the opportunity of a bunch again. It'll lead running back to the Packers. I think Packers are going to be in above average offence this year. We like the talent we think, right? I mean like, I know you do your rookie model stuff. And so you can probably talk about this better than I do in terms of where his, his zaps score and all the stuff that you do is. But right, like, I mean, like we liked him coming out of college, but we've never seen him be good in the NFL, right? He's been injured a lot. He's been stuck behind an elite starter in Josh Jacobs, but like we just, we don't know. So I am at 25. Yeah, it's about where I have him to like right ahead of like Jalen Warren type players. You know, the guys were like, you know, like you were saying, where there's a lot more ambiguity about it's not like we think that there's massive, massive upside for guy like Warren, whereas there could be massive upside for a player like Lloyd. The thing with him, you know, he was a little bit older coming out. He was over 23 when he was drafted production profile. I'd say it was pretty average. Like nothing like crazy that that made me the one thing that was pretty good. Those that he was, he was good at forcing Miss tackles in college. He was like 90 second percent Tyler. So there. And then the other thing that you're going to see and I fall in love with these kinds of players is that he's very bursty and twitchy and you know, is it and that's it's going to be electric with the ball in his hands and very fun to watch. Now, that doesn't always translate to coaches loving that player or, you know, fantasy production and such. But I guarantee you that if you draft March on Lloyd and you're watching him play, you're going to be excited watching him play, you know, because he's really, really fun with the ball in his hands. As I mentioned, I had Nate Tyson on my show earlier this week, you know, and Nate was just talking about that he felt like. And I think Nate does a really good job. He does, yeah, I'm a big fan of Nate. And so, and he's a big fantasy player too. That's not what he does for Yahoo, but he's a big fantasy player. He's like a nine leagues. He was telling me and he said he liked Lloyd a lot. And he just felt like Lloyd was a better zone scheme runner actually than Jacob. He actually thinks Lloyd is going to be a better fit for, he says LaFourold changed it a little bit, but he actually thinks, you know, based on what the Packers are doing. He also had a really interesting nugget. He says, I don't know if you noticed this, but the Packers traded for this, like, you know, blocking Titan from the Rams. Like, you know, like, I think the guy's name was Mark Bradley. I forget, I apologize, blanking on it for right now. But he just said he's a really good blocking Titan. He's just like, I thought that was a really interesting move because that tells me he goes, look, they're going to get, you know, they're going to bring him out there. He goes, it's because Kraft blocked some. But it just, this guy's a really good blocking Titan. That, you know, they'll put out line and like, they're just going to, they're just going to do that zone scheme stuff and just, you know, have this guy pancake a few people. And so he thought, he just thought that was also telling, that thought was really interesting. The other thing is, is that I think, again, health is going to be concerned for Lloyd. And can he hold up over the entire season, if he does, in fact, have to play the entire year? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, like, I think he's going to get a fairly long leash because, yeah, I don't know that we think any, you know, I don't know that Brooks is anything special. You know, feels like he's just, he's going to be a third down passing down specialist. And then Caleb Johnson, I mean, Hope Springs Eternal for Caleb Johnson, you know, everyone that's got date, dynasty shares of Caleb Johnson's like, "Oh, we're back, we're back, baby, we're alive." You know, but like, we haven't seen Caleb Johnson be good in the NFL yet, either. Right. There were questions of whether he would even make the Steelers, you know, switch over to how I'm treating Josh Jacobs. I'm at running back 50. I'm at 147 overall, and I have zero shares of him. I don't know what's going to happen, but if you draft him, I think you have to draft him with the idea that you may get nothing out of him this year. There's a wide range of outcomes. The problem is there's just a massively wide range of outcomes with Josh Jacobs, but I feel like the majority of them are not great, you know, which is there's a chance he's suspended the entire year. There's a chance he's suspended for eight games, and by the time he gets back, and he hasn't been working out or whatever, that he's rusty, and that by the time he gets back, Marshall and Lloyd is sort of taken over the job, or it's a committee, or by the way, or the Packers, you know, or the Packers decide to release him, you know, like if the press is bad enough. But there is within the range of outcomes that, you know, he gets taken off the list tomorrow, and he's back to being the starting, running back of the Packers. I feel more comfortable drafting him in a league where I have an NA spot, right, where not available, because some leagues will just, it's just an IR spot. They literally have to be injured and on the IR spot. Some leagues, however, just like if they're suspended, they're on the exempt list, they're on IR, whatever it is. If they're just not available, you can put them in a slot. So if I'm not wasting a roster spot on him, or using, wasting is probably too strong a word, but if I'm not using a roster spot on him, I feel better about it. And the other scenario where I would draft him is just if I need an upside, you know, just if like, just because the way the draft went, I just wasn't able to get early-round running backs. I've got too many of these committee guys that you're just like, you don't love your running back room and how it's constructed. And so I need to swing for the fences. And so, yeah, you know, why not, I'll take a shot. But I will say that where I ranked him in my running backs, JJ, is I ranked him after all the kind of the high upside insurance backs, after the Tank Bigsbies and the Ray Davises of the world, right, the guy, you know, the Emma Johnson's, the guys that, you know, if something were to happen to the starter in front of them, we feel pretty good about their opportunity to be fantasy relevant while the starter was out. - Yeah, that makes sense. All right, I want to do a rapid fire here. - Yeah. - This guy versus this guy who are close to NADP, tell me who you would pick. And, you know, the sentence as the wise. So let's start with Jeremiah Love versus Breeze Hall. - Have them right nights to each other. I have Hall one spot higher. I'm gonna take Hall because I feel better about his passing game usage than I do about love. They're both on bad teams, but I feel like Hall, Hall has more of a floor in terms of his passing game usage. - Can I throw this take out there? Doesn't it feel like Breeze Hall is kind of the, like, 80th percentile realized version of Jeremiah Love from a rookie season perspective? Doesn't it kind of feel that way, you know? - Yeah, you get that. - I get that. - Like a YouTube standpoint and such, yeah. - Yeah, no, I like that. Frank Reich has a track record throwing the running backs. - Yep. - You know, Jeremiah Love, you know, has the nagging injury. Both teams are gonna be bad, but I feel like Breeze Hall is definitely going to, you know, catch a lot of, we've seen it with Devon H-Han, right? You know, a bad running back, a good running, a running back on a bad team, you catch a lot of passes and be very fantasy relevant. I'm worried that Jeremiah Love is not gonna be used in the passing game, you know, as much as we want. As much as we want, because of all the weapons they have, because I don't think Jacobi was said as more likely to chuck it down the field. - Yep. - So, that's why. - Agreed. - All right, Malik neighbors versus Chris Alave. - Yeah, Chris Alave, you know, I had them reversed while Jordan Tason was healthy. But with Tyson out now, just, you know, just 29% target share with Tyler Schuck is the starting quarterback last year for Alave, right? Over 82 yards of game. He was wide receiver five in the utilization score. You know, JJ, your audience would probably appreciate this. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but Dwayne McFarland over at Fantasy Life has created this metric called the utilization score. - It's great. - Yeah. - Which just is basically a very simple number on a scale of one to 100 that takes in all different factors that translate to projecting fantasy success. Dwayne is much better at explaining it. It's very complex, but I won't nerd out on it. But anyway, this is somebody that had a, that was wide receiver five in terms of total utilization score. - Yeah. - Just massive, you know, targets for route run in terms of usage and just, anyway, so give me Alave over the, I'm not crazy about Matt Nagy. We don't know how healthy neighbors is, you know. - Yeah, I feel you know, I'm in the same boat. All right, Bayshall Tutan versus David Montgomery. - I mean, I literally, I mean, I have Montgomery 21 and Tutan at 22 and I think the answer here, I'm gonna give you a cop out. But I think the answer is, I know where you're going here and I'm going to agree with you here, for sure. - It's roster construction. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Yeah. It's just, if you have, if you went running back early and you feel really good about, you know, sort of, you've got a rock solid running back one, maybe even a running back two, give me Bayshall Tutan, give me the upside of Bayshall Tutan. But if I ended up going, you know, why, you know, the way it drafts is I, you know, I went, why I received her in tight end and like, so, you know, I've got a question mark at my RB1. Give me Dave Montgomery, why I think he's going to have a, a really strong floor year. He's a much higher floor than Tutan, but he doesn't have the upside of Tutan. So it really depends on what you need at that, you know, when you're in the fifth, sixth round of the draft. - Yeah, totally agree. All right, last one, I'll give you Chris Godwin versus Brian Thomas. - I'll say Brian Thomas, right? I mean, I just, I feel, I have him in 32, I've Godwin at 34. I just feel like Thomas, you know, younger, big playability, higher touchdown ceiling. It also goes back to what we were just talking about in terms of roster construction, in terms of, you know, upside or floor. - Yeah. - But in terms of where these guys are going, like at that stage, where both Godwin and Brian Thomas are going, I feel like that's where you want to swing for the fences a little bit more. And you want the upside play. And so give me BTJ there between those two. - All right, one last question before I let you go. I need a bold take for this 2026 season. And just just remember, whatever you say here will be used as a headline, as a news item on all the aggregator sites. So be careful with what you say here. - Well, I just, I wrote, I just wrote today on fantasy of the column, my 10 list of 10 column. One of my 10 lists is my bold list. predictions, 10 bold predictions for the 25 season, perfect. Why don't I, why don't I read them quickly to you? I'll read you all 10. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. Here we go real quickly. Devante Smith finishes the top five wide receiver. Chase, Chase Brown finishes as a top three, running back. Love it. Colston Lublin finishes it overall tight in one, Kyla Murray, top five, Tyler Schuck, top 10, Chris Olave, top five wide receiver, Lad McConkey, top eight, Matthew Stafford throws 15 fewer touchdowns, at least 15 fewer touchdowns and finishes outside the top 15 of fantasy quarterbacks. AJ Brown leads the NFL in receiving touchdowns and finishes as a top three fantasy wide receiver. And last bold prediction, Isaiah likely, top five fantasy tight end. I like it. I like it. So there's an insane amount of overlap because I did my bold predictions piece this week and really a lot, a lot of guys that we are both seemingly in on together this year. The AJ Brown was one, like I had one of mine was that Chase Brown and Kenneth Walker will both outscore Jonathan Taylor was okay. I like that one. I like that one. But yes, there's a lot a lot of overlap. Are you in on Lad this year? Because that's why we had throughout the show and stuff. You're in. Yeah. Lad was one of my fine. Like so I, you know, writer diabetes become such a big thing and I'm out of my own here. So I'm milking it, right? So got to do what I can, you know, in a world of SEO. And so I did a finalist, you know, I now announce my five finalists and so funny that you mentioned it. So here are my five finalists for writer die, Devante Smith, Colston, Lublin, Ken Walker, Chase Brown and Lad McConnor. There we go. There we go. Those were my five finalists for writer die and I ultimately obviously went with Smith. But yeah. So I think he's probably on the short list. It's like, for me, it's like Devante Smith, Zay flowers, Lad McConnor is like short list could be this year's JSN. Yes. I agree with all that with Zay. Zay is going to Zay is on my love list. And it's just a matter of can you get the touchdowns, right? We believe in the talent. We believe in the role. We believe in the quarterback. It's just can he get to the touchdowns? Maconkey, you know, I mean, I had actually had field dates on my show earlier today. We did a reunion show and we were talking about we did sleepers breakouts and busts. And one of his breakouts was just in Herbert. And we just talked about the fact that like people forget how good Tua was in the first two years under McDaniel. Yeah. And this passing offense is not and Herbert is obviously, you know, miles better than Tua just as a quarterback. Right. And in that particular year, when, when, you know, Tua had to choose between Waddle and Tyree Kill. Right. And but now like it's Lad McConkey. And you know, who else? No one's talking about J.J. that I brought up on my show. So I'm in on the Chargers offense. I'm in on Herbert. You know, the passing offense is going to go through McConkey. But like no one's talking about Quentin Johnson. And I brought this up on my show the other day where I'm just like he's we all like the offense. We all like the quarterback. And Quentin Johnson is going to be like the number two guy for what we think is going to be one of the like a top 10 offense in the NFL. Like I don't, I'm not hearing a ton of Trey Harris buzz. I think all the Titans kind of, you know, box each other out, right? Like, like, and I mean, we started the pieces in game. Like they're going to take three or four deep shots to QJ every game. Yeah. And if he hits on one of them half the games, like he's a value, not even half the games. Like a third of the game. I know. And I also, I also want to coach that knows how to scheme his guys open for a guy like QJ who's great after the catch. Like there's a very easy, you know, easy to see fit ski and a fit from a scheme perspective to bottom line is draft, draft your chargers, right? Just draft your chargers this year. It's really what it comes down to. But Matthew, this was fantastic. I really, really, really appreciate the time and kind of reminiscing, but then also talking some fantasy. Let everyone know what you're doing where they can find all the stuff you're doing this year. And, you know, do what you want with the promotion of fantasy life. Yeah, fantasy life.com where all my stuff, if you want to read my comms, see my rankings, they're all for free at fantasy life.com. We send out a free newsletter every single day. You can sign up for that at fantasy life.com. We also have fantasy life plus 37 different tools, which help you win your leagues, your DFS, your bets. Really great that, you know, if you're playing a guillotine league, which is another thing I would love to mention, we have a waiver tool that'll tell you like how much do I bid on Jamar chasing week seven. We can tell you based on all the historical data. So go check that out. Fantasy life plus you can use the promo code Berry to get 10% off at fantasy life.com. And then the last thing I'll mention, you know, again, my show that you've done JJ, you were a guest fantasy football happy hour. We're live on YouTube every single day, noon to one PM Eastern on the Matthew Berry YouTube channel wherever you get your podcasts as well. And then last thing I'll say is guillotine leagues, go try a league, guillotine leagues.com. If you want, JJ, you should do this. If you go to Mike's hard.com slash sweepstakes slash fantasy football, you can enter into a Mike's harder guillotine league, all the Mike's harder guillotine leagues. If you survive the chop, if you manage to survive, you know, a guillotine is a guillotine leagues.com. If you manage to survive and you're a winner, all the people that win their guillotine league are going into into a pool. And Mike's harder is going to choose one of them and give that person $25,000. Oh, nice. So you can enter a free league. And there's a chance that you're holding $25,000 at the end of the year. There's also a bunch of weekly prizes as well that you can sign up for again. So that's Mike's hard.com slash sweepstakes slash fantasy football. So there you go. I can vouch also for fantasy life with the the data stuff that you guys have. It's very helpful for me, even for like quick reference type stuff, you know, within like the the data suite that you've got to just very quickly see route shares and very quickly see, you know, different metrics for players. So for for this particular audience, you guys might be interested in that as well. So check out fantasy life for sure. I appreciate that. I appreciate you saying that between Dwayne McFarland and Matthew Friedman, who do all of our projections, you know, Dwayne's actually our director of data analytics, he's, you know, his utilization stuff, all of our utilization, I think charts and data is really incredible. So I appreciate you giving your vote of approval, me saying the data is like good, they're like, yeah, whatever Barry, but you saying it is meaningful. So I appreciate that. Yeah, of course, of course. And as always, everyone check out late round.com. The draft guide is only going to be, you know, relevant for another week or so. So make sure you check all that out. Otherwise, thanks for tuning in. Hey, I'm Mike Am and I'm Trevor Sikama. Whether you're a first time player or a grizzled vet chasing another championship, we give you the advantage and the confidence you need to make every move count. Listen to the NFL fantasy football show on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, whether you're a seasoned NFL fan or new to the game, there's one place to keep up with all of it. The league's newest podcast, the NFL report posted by me, Andrew Ceciliano, it is your home for everything football breaking news, expert analysis, game picks, and here from your favorite players to join me at an all-star cast of experts for everything you need to know from around the league. Get new episodes of the NFL report Monday through Friday, all season long. Listen to the NFL report podcast on the I heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.