LARQ: From reinventing the water bottle to being acquired by BRITA

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A show about the people behind top consumer brands, category creators, and emerging disruptors, and how they push through to make the most of both work and life each day. Today, I'm here with Justin Wang, who in 2017 decided that the way we drink water could use an upgrade. Justin left a successful corporate career to tackle an everyday problem all of us face at some point, icky water bottles. He's a co-founder and CEO of Lark, the company behind the world's first self-cleaning, water bottle that it says can eliminate up to 99.9% of harmful bacteria and is meant to ensure you're not worrying about how clean the water is when you're traveling. What started as a crowdfunded product quickly turned into a multinational brand, earning a spot on Shark Tank, where he walked in with the highest valuation seen in the show's history at the time. I'm here today to ask for $500,000 for 1% of my company. Most recently, the brand was acquired by Brita. This is a bucket list pick. It just started out from a random email we got. I think people sometimes get lost about, "Oh, I need to get to an exit. I need to have an IPO," because there's nothing more attractive, in my opinion, in terms of building yourself as a acquisition target than building a company that is sustainable, that doesn't need to be acquired. Justin, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure. So let's go back to the beginning. Just to share some context, can you walk us through your background, where you grew up, and what you learned? And what shaped your ambitions early on? In my early days, it was a pretty typical upbringing, playing sports, being outdoors. I was a Boy Scout growing up. So I think very early on, I had a connection with nature, health. Funny enough, one of my first memories was me running into the Pacific Ocean when I was three years old. I didn't know how to swim at the time. I crashed into the waves, my parents had to grab me out of the water so that I don't drown. But I had this deep feeling that it was a wonderful experience. So very young, I had this connection, I think, with water, with nature that I think persists today. You know, this appreciation for sustainability and nature kind of ultimately, I think, transformed and ended up with me creating Lark. Also, growing up, I was very much inspired to be an entrepreneur by some of my family members. You know, we didn't grow up with a lot. So, you know, very happy childhood, it was very, very fun. It was a, you know, pretty middle-class childhood, but it was a middle-class childhood that my parents had to work very hard for. So you're a first-generation American? I am, yeah. Oh, I see. I was going to ask if you, growing up, had the itch to become a founder. Can you talk a bit more about that? Yeah, I definitely did. You know, not growing up with a lot. It was always. You know, the thing of trying to do better for your family and trying to do better so that you feel more secure and things like this. So there was definitely a drive to do that. I also had a mentor in my aunt who started her own consulting business, probably when I was around 10 or 12, and that whole process, watching her go through that and ultimately having. She sold her business to a larger firm. Having that process really, I think, inspired me, but also, more importantly, I think, made me realize that it was possible, having a mentor go through that and say, "Oh, someone like me, someone from my family, can actually just. " No permission needed, you could just go and do it, right? So I think that made an impression on me at a very early age, to want to be an entrepreneur, so that spark was, I think, put there by that interaction. And, you know, I didn't do it right away. I took another, you know, 10, 15 years before I made the plunge, but it was planted. Well, I was going to ask anyway, because before starting the business, you already had a very successful career. You served as president of FOREO, the beauty tech company, and earlier as an investor with LVMH's investment arm, as well as I saw Elle Catterton, one of the world's top PE firms. How did you decide to walk away from all that? How did you decide to take that leap, because, you know, people call it golden handcuffs for a reason. I think that's a good term, golden handcuffs. I think I was fortunate, one, I had this kind of spark within me that I wanted to do something entrepreneurial. And I think, two, I was lucky enough that I made that leap fairly early. I was a VP at Elle Catterton, and, you know, if I stayed on probably much longer, it would have been tougher and tougher, you know, so I think it's also tougher, as you get older, if you have family and things like this. So I think I was lucky enough where I made the leap fairly early, but I think that drive within me was always kind of there. I always knew deep down that I wanted to create something, and I wanted to create something and then make an impact through the work that I was doing. Yeah, well, tell us what inspired the creation of Lark. How was the company born, because there's always a problem that you start with, right? Yeah, I remember very clearly. It was one day. I was working in San Francisco at the time. I was opening up the cabinet, and probably like two water bottles fell out. And I realized me and my wife had collected something like six, eight different water bottles in the cabinet. I was collecting dust, wasn't being used very much. And then all of a sudden, this idea popped into my head. I was like, well, why is that? When we looked into it, we realized that, you know, despite the fast-growing reusable water bottle market, all these big major brands emerging, they only made up about 5% of the overall market. The rest, 95%, was made up of single-use plastic, mostly water bottles, being shipped in from places like Fiji or the Alps. And I asked the question, why is that? And what we realized through research was that despite the wide availability of water bottles, it just wasn't meeting people's user needs. And what is that? That came down to. One, access on the go to safe, clean drinking water, right? People don't like the taste of chlorine. People don't like the fact that there's things like PFAS, lead, all sorts of chemicals in our water system, which is well covered. And then two, people don't love scrubbing the water bottle every day, right? You have to wash it. It gets stinky. And three, people wanted it in a beautiful package that they were proud to carry around. So design was very important. So Lark was started from that, realizing that there was a gap between. A giant market, half a billion dollar industry in single-use water bottles and what people actually wanted. I don't know if you have the experience of when you reach for a plastic water bottle, you have a tinge of guilt. That's very common. But despite that, the conveniences and all those issues I had talked about earlier is what propels people to keep using it, right? So we try to bridge that gap in user experience in delivering a product that makes your water safer, makes your user experience better. And in a package that's designed to be convenient and beautiful. Right. And then what happened next after you had the great idea? You know, did you go out and find a co-founder or what happened? You know, had kind of connected with my co-founder who has a technical background from Caltech literally weeks before. So maybe it had been brewing in my brain. I didn't realize it. But, you know, we connected and he was developing a unique technology, the material science, to put UV and other. Types of filtration into the product. So we kind of came up with the idea of Lark. It was kind of serendipitous that I met him. So I was more of the business side and he was more of the technical side, innovative side. So you told him, this is a problem. I feel like we should team up to address it. And he said, brilliant, because I have a background in UV systems anyway, and this would work out really well. Was that actually what happened or? Pretty much. I mean, pretty much. I think we had talked about the applications. Of UV and various things from surface disinfection to water. And that might have launched something to back my head and, you know, was picked up later when I had this moment on the inside when, you know, kind of cleaning out my cupboards. Right. So it sounds like you always had a little bit of that entrepreneurial bug. Yeah. Even through your corporate career. And then when you landed on what felt like the right idea, you thought this is the moment. Let's go for it. Yeah, exactly. And from day one, Justin, it sounds like you had a pretty clear vision in mind. What was your response, though? To let's say critics who, you know, didn't or perhaps still don't get the appeal of the product? let's say people who are like what's wrong with a regular water bottle i'll just say most ideas should be challenged and that process is very much needed i think for you to hone your idea hone your pitch hone your uh reasons why and reasons why not right uh i think that is that process of discovery is very important so when there are people that were questioning that it helps you define your product define your pitch but honestly i felt like some of the things were addressed were pretty universal so it was apparent through our research that these were the pain points of why so we were you know but you also have to have conviction right at the end of the day you know you should listen to your critics you should listen to people's advice but i think sometimes what you'll find is that you know you'll have one choice choice a choice b and you'll find five people pulling in one direction and five pulling in the other direction so i think one of the hard things to do as an early stage founder is picking your path because you could you could whether it's the design decision or a color decision or a feature decision uh you'll find people that will resonate with it or not or give you different advice and you know you have to rise above the noise in some ways let's go with your gut yeah everyone's got an opinion yeah everyone's got an opinion you should listen to it you should refine it but ultimately it's up to you as uh as a founder to be able to take a path and share with your consumers a a vision for that path right because people resonate when when there is a vision rather than a frankenstein product that is a series of compromises that is no good for anybody right exactly then you're kind of like why am i in this anyways right well some people who didn't really need much convincing were your early kickstarter backers lark had a record-breaking kickstarter campaign off the bat raising 1.4 million dollars i think i saw out of a 30 000 goal a lot of people though don't know how much goes into crowdfunding yeah what did you learn from this experience is there any strategic advice you've given to folks who are at the early stage of their business now looking to take that same route i also really believe in iterating with your potential consumers right and understanding what resonates with them what kind of messaging and involving them from a very early stage in the product development uh of the brand of the product you know the funny thing is we i remember before the launch of the campaign we were like we'd be really happy if it hits 100 150k uh and then end up doing about 10 and a half million dollars and then we're like oh my god right so that early validation also gave us more conviction that we're on the right path but through that process whether it's kickstarter or if you're doing something different i would say i find a lot of value in getting early adopters to give you feedback around the product but i think also creates a community around uh around the people with the same issue or the same uh values um and it creates an early home for the brand to be honest so you know kickstarter is a great way to do that and i think it's a great way to do that and i think kickstarter is obviously the right tool for maybe something that was hardware or consumer facing but i think you know finding that in other spaces also is a very good approach yeah and for those who are out there listening who are thinking i would love to you know one can only dream of being able to 10x your goal on kickstarter um is there are there any you know kind of practical tips that you would suggest i think cultivating that community early i think one of the things that we did well was even before the launch of the campaign uh we created just a landline and we created a landing page like one single page and in retrospect it looked you know a little janky to be honest with you uh but we created the page we gave out the product uh we had a render of the product we had some basic propositions and we asked people to sign up uh and people did and from that we created a small community that we kept going back to asking about price point value proposition and things like this and we were able to get thousands of data points from this even before we launched a campaign right so i think that iterative process so by the time the campaign launched we felt very confident the uh the price point it should be at the the key selling points the product should have um so we were really able to refine uh the initial product and the positioning much more by leveraging that early set of adopters so specifically running what marketing like facebook ads or things like that and then also getting people's emails and sending them surveys on what they would like to see exactly wow and not even product photos but the rendering they're not rendering yeah you'd be surprised how people want to be involved right they want to be involved they want to have input of course you can't take everyone's input but if you are thoughtful about your approach and thoughtful about the type of things that you really need to still have answered and you've all that community i think it creates the sense that they're coming along the journey with you and i think that was very important for our early success and coming out the door with you know what was at the time the biggest um crowdfunding campaign in the space was that the moment that you felt like okay this is gonna go big i think so you know i think that gave us more confidence uh you know i think i i am someone that is a little bit more reserved and when it comes to like you know i don't shout our success always from the mountaintops so i felt like it was a validation uh but we also felt like oh you know now we have to deliver now we instead of producing hundreds of products or thousands we have to make tens of thousands on the first shipment so so also brought a sense of pressure right like here we go yeah yeah well justin i even saw you guys later went back and did a couple more campaigns on kickstarter out of curiosity you know why go back there instead of relying on existing funding from the business or your investors and for that matter i think i even saw wasn't it until you waited till year two or three and then you were like oh my god i'm gonna go back and do this and three to take on your first vc investors i think he's on a shark tank um with your background and position in the bay area you surely had a good network so you know why wait as well well i think all the benefits of you know we we launched our second product the pitcher um and second generation of the bottle uh fairly recently uh we went back to you know the kickstarter community because we really felt like it was valuable feedback like i mentioned earlier it was valuable feedback in the way that we wanted to we obviously had an audience already but that feedback loop uh and access to those early adopters that could give you opinions about the product uh was still very valuable to us so that's why we went back um and i think we also wanted to sort of bootstrap the business as far as we could before we raised outside capital and also obviously hopefully it lets you hang on to equity for a bit longer doesn't it right yeah exactly that's another on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app when you need to build up your team to handle the growing asset work use indeed sponsored jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs on a reddit ama i don't know ask me anything uh i i did do my homework i uh i saw you told other entrepreneurs that your advice when it comes to financing would include the reminders that one persistence pays off and two know when to move on to the next conversation which somewhat contradicts number one you said what specific moments taught you this do any stories come to mind if i think about the cohort of hardware startups going back to 2018 give or take we are probably one of the only ones that are are still alive would that still exist so i think hardware is a uh hardware is hard it's uh and it's very tough uh so i think we were in a space where you had to be persistent right i think all entrepreneurs have to be persistent and oftentimes is the last one who still has a will to continue that survive and then thrive right so in some ways it's a little bit of a culling of who you could last that long and can make it to the other side in the j curve and i think that's true for fundraising as well right i think one of the probably the strongest indicator of success when we're hiring or if investing i think is whether or not someone has conviction has the ability to go the distance despite challenges because challenges is going to be the norm uh feeling like you might not you know make it to the other side of the next round is the norm so i think that's true for fundraising as well right i think one of the probably the so i think persistence is super super important when it comes to not only fundraising but working at a startup to starting a startup uh and especially in the hardware space is there a certain like stretch of time that you could point to as an example of when you really felt this your back was against the wall and that you really were just trying to motivate yourself every day to keep rallying yeah you know we also ran this business during a very i would say volatile time economy we a couple years into it we had covid yeah and all the things that came along with covid uh the supply chain shortages And we had tariffs in the first round of tariffs hit our product. So through all that, you know, especially there was a period during COVID, we really weren't sure if we were able to continue. But lucky enough, I think we were able to manage the supply chain issues. We were able to manage some of the issues that came from, you know, just all the businesses we're dealing with at the time and ultimately made it to the other side. Right. But that was in large part, I think, to, you know, having a team that was resilient, you know, knowing that the team looks at a problem instead of saying, woe is me or OK, what can we do about this? I think we really had a team that were very focused on problem solution. Right. When we see a problem, we digest it and we try to come up with a solution. So there was a point during, was it COVID, I'm guessing, that you were worried about even just getting through it and whether your business would survive. Right. As did many businesses, obviously. It was like an existential crisis for so many people. Right. And I heard a lot of Darwinian analogies at that time, especially coming out of Silicon Valley. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because I was going to ask later on about, you know, what was one of the toughest moments? Would you characterize this as one of them? Definitely one of them, because I think not only we had just launched at, I think it was Bloomingdale's at the time. And then all of a sudden, you know, we had lockdowns and then we weren't. We weren't sure if we were able to get product from our factories. And then all of a sudden we swam from that perspective to you couldn't book a container ship because, you know, the freight, the backup at, you know, Long Beach really had an impact. So that meant carrying more capital on your balance sheet, on your supply chain. You had to carry more assets. Yeah. And as a small business, as a, you know, kind of a Series A founded business at that time, we weren't really sure how much we could stretch our dollars. Yeah. Yeah. I remember very distinctly having a conversation with our head of finance and my co-founder about, you know, how many months do we have left? That kind of conversation, right? That's what. What's the runway here? Yeah. What's the runway there? Right. I think at the time it was maybe less than a half a year. How did that feel at that point? It was, we were three or four years into it. It felt very much like having my life's work maybe almost come to an end at that point. And, but we also knew that, you know, like I said earlier, we had a resilient team. Yeah. And we had good investors and things like this that we would partner with and things eased up. You know, we got a little bit lucky as well. So things fell into place and, you know, the economy kept humming along and, you know, we were able to be successful on the other side. Yeah. So, you know, just to your point, persisting. Yeah. Despite the circumstances. And it sounds like you were able to work it out to bring your shipments in still. Yes. Thankfully. Yeah. Wow. That's like pretty remarkable though. I mean, it's, you talk about peaks and valleys, right? And on her North ship, that's definitely one of them. Yeah. It's funny because I know you and I were just speaking about how we both know Touchland's founder. And she told us as well that during COVID, despite what everyone thinks about her business being, you know, a COVID boom business, she was left without product for a year. So I can't even imagine what it was like for folks like you who were scrambling behind the scenes at this time. You've come out on the other end. I want to ask you as well, you know, when it comes down to financing, just to stay on that for a moment. No one goes through this process without rejection, right? How did you navigate any kind of setbacks on that? Did you employ a specific mindset? And, you know, like, was it like five second funeral, that kind of thing? You know, how did you go out and bear those challenges? You have to be able to take rejection and move on. I think I had this running list of potential investors that got to be over 100 to close our Series A. So it took 100 conversations to close our Series A, right? But in retrospect, when we raised the next round, I took that as a sense of possibility. I have to get through 100 no's if the right partner comes along, right? I should get through 100 no's, right? At the end of the day. So I think for me, we took that as a sense of pride, right? Like, you know, even though, you know, hard work is hard, and it was hard to get investors at a time, we made it to the other side. It took 100 tries, but we made it. That means we could make it through anything. Right. 100 tries. Badge of honor, right? Right. It's a badge of honor. Yeah. So I think you have to be resilient. You also have to, you know, like, as you mentioned earlier, you have to also know when to move on. Yeah. People don't see your vision. And, you know, you have to work with people that understand what you're trying to do and can get behind you in good times and in bad. So that was kind of your mindset was on to the next then? Yep. Yeah. Next. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Justin, you famously went on Shark Tank in 2021 and managed to snag a deal at the time, despite having the highest valuation ever seen on the show. In fact, I remember when you walked in, you made the ask and the investors. Right. Did you expect that? I did not expect them to laugh at me. I did expect some resistance. And I think we were a little bit bigger by the time we were on the show. And we thought about, well, what's our pitch going to be? What's our ask going to be? I was a huge fan of the show, huge fan of the Sharks. We decided to lean into our authenticity, which is we were a little bit bigger. We were I came from, you know, we were. Venture backed at the time already. So we wanted to go out and just go ahead and ask for the biggest deal. What's the bit, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? But I did not plan on the fact that it would laugh at me. So that made things a little tense and a little nervous. But we were able to, you know, still have a good and successful outcome as a result. Well, I noticed that you remain very composed. What is your advice to other young founders to kind of keep calm and carry on as they prepare to pitch investors in that kind of way? Obviously, Shark Tank's a little bit of. You know, entertainment as well. So it's it's it's not exactly the same as pitching VC. But I think what I did take away from that was you should be super prepared to know your numbers. You should know your know your business really well and be ready to answer tough questions. But I think you should also be authentic as in, you know, if you don't have this start in the basement story, don't try to lean into it. Right. If you lean into your strength, be authentic about who you where you come from, because people see that and people see the authenticity and that story will resonate not only with the sharks. Right. But also with investors and things like this. I think a lot of times people try to put themselves into a mold that works and that in authenticity where the lack of authenticity comes through. I think having conviction around where you're coming from, where business is really going, where your really true vision is. Exactly. Especially that shared vision, because you want to be in alignment because it's almost like a marriage, isn't it? Yeah. When you're getting into bed with an investor. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It is like certainly a relationship, if not a marriage. So there's no point to BS, basically. Like, yeah, just I think what you're saying is so true. There's a lot of people that would be tempted to just go along with whatever it seems like they want because they want to get the deal. Right. Which to some degree is understandable. But you're saying, obviously. You know, be reasonable about it. Because I think it all comes out in diligence where it will come out in the way you present it. If you don't really believe in it, if you're just trying to mold your story to a pitch. I think what you should do is mold the pitch to your story. You know what you really have conviction under. Right. If we all know in the investment space, it's one hot thing to another. It could be AI today. It could be hardware next day. It could be, you know, something else. Right. Recurring revenue the next day. And and that up and down. Is always going to be there. So, of course, you have to understand the environment. But I think you should be true to your North Star. And that's that's how you're going to navigate like rough seas on any journey using Uber. It helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification as an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. Two, five, three, eight. That way, you know, you're in the right car. Taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Twenty five dollars sponsored job credit at Indeed dot com slash podcast. That's Indeed dot com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Are there any kind of rituals that you have before a big event like that to maybe just get in the zone? You know, like you see things like Michael Phelps before he goes out to the pool. He'll have his headphones on and he's like in the zone. Like, is there anything that you like to do before you go out and pitch to investors? I do a little meditation. I like to work out. So, you know, getting a good workout in beforehand. The other thing is I have a very close relationship with Michael Phelps. my uh with my wife and you know i actually talked to her quite a bit about you know big events and big uh big pitches or you know shark tank she was my practice judge uh and you know just going through that with her and getting you know so i think that's part of my ritual as well as talking to people i trust yeah i think having a a group of people that you trust and respect uh it could be a partner it could be you know people just your friends i think that's also very important and how did you work to keep costs as low as possible throughout these early stages because i imagine that was a priority especially in the beginning you know we wanted to deliver a good product a quality product um so obviously keeping costs at a reasonable amount helps with the addressable market size um so it was more important that we found a manufacturing partner that could do it to our quality and specifications than it was to absolutely keep the lowest cost uh so there was always a little bit of a balance between those two things right yeah because it's a premium product as well it's not like something you want to skimp exactly let's talk about retail and distribution because um you are in best buy canada and i've seen your product on william sonoma you recently expanded into target and are looking to launch on apple.com dream partners for entrepreneurs how did you manage to secure these collaborations and how did you manage to secure these collaborations can you kind of talk us through the process broadly uh we started on ddc right so that's that's the typical playbook now you start online uh and then we went to trade shows uh to talk to buyers um and in the beginning we worked with more boutique buyers uh you know we're in new york moma as one of our earliest uh partners on the retail side and really through that process you kind of learn what works in retail what doesn't work in retail uh because retail is very taxing both in terms of the people that you need in terms of the supply chain and inventory you have to keep um so i think we learned a lot over the years uh to be ready for a partner like a target like a best buy uh and apple what kind of things do you feel like you need to have in place i think knowing what kind of uh product resonate with what partner you know and not every product is right for every partner uh you know so we only have certain products at an apple that may not be at a target and and that buyers uh and that consumer is a little bit different right so just because a big name partner comes along i don't think you should always say yes very early i think you should be ready for that uh partnership as an organization as well right so because the supply chain terms the inventory terms uh the margin terms are all going to be taxing on the organization right more inventory margins are different and you don't control the whole experience like you do on d2c so you have to have a field team going to target literally check every store are they in stock and they're always not not always in stock right so uh all this requires a team of people right so oftentimes i've seen brands get just decimated by going to retail too early uh because it is a um you know it's a more complex process that you have to manage so having a field team in place is a very important part of the team in place is one of your suggestions for anyone looking to go into retail and are there any other things that you really felt like gave you that leg up when you were pitching these retailers and distributors yeah i think we had a natural advantage in that we have innovative products in a category that was often growing for for our partners so uh i think fundamentally if you have a innovative product uh that people weren't we didn't have many other products in this category um that was very helpful and pitching uh to our partners um and i think also building the brand to a certain size in d2c and your own community to a certain size i think is also helpful in that you're ready for a thousand doors with someone uh by the time that that opportunity comes along it sounds like that's also one really key piece of advice that's like underpinned your journey is ensuring that you're truly ready and not going too fast because it's tempting obviously to do that but i think it's important that you're ready to go after all the big guys as soon as you've got a product and you see that people like it right yeah um but it sounds like you are really conscious about pacing yourself and being prepared yeah i think that experience probably comes a little bit from being an investor at one point and seeing uh some of the investments uh you know especially venture-backed consumer investments can lose sight of their margins lose sight of their you know efficiency as an organization um and i think that's really important and i think that's really important and i think that's really important uh and overstretch themselves to go after every single opportunity um so i think we've seen some very famous consumer brands um have a very you know hot start and burnout so i think it's good to know that at the end of the day you know it's uh i would say it's a marathon and on a sprint what does it really take to succeed in retail even after you've landed these channels because i often hear founders complain that not only are they successful but they're also successful but they're also successful but they're also successful but they're also successful but people talk about that that they see that they've landed it and then they think that's the end but obviously it's not yeah i think it's all about your connection with your consumer uh and sell through right and that's a different way of saying once you're on the shelf are you moving with enough velocity to make your buyer happy and to make that category happy uh and ultimately i think that is a question whether or not you could make your consumer happy if you have a good product market fit for that not only with your ddc customers but for the customer that you're a retail partner might have right so i think that's very important what category or how you're presented uh we turned down a lot of opportunities that it was going to be oh we'll put your shelf we'll put your product on you know the bottom shelf or uh on this random location uh even though it was a big maybe buy-in opportunity we knew that our product required a little more education a little more understanding uh of what they were doing and what they were doing the product is doing so at the end of the day we only decided to partner with people that would give us that visual space to be able to be successful yeah so you actually even walked away from some of these opportunities yeah absolutely you have to be discerning you have to be discerning i think you also have to know you know you know exactly that product market fit with that partner with that space is that going to do the thing that you think it will do and it's a little bit of art obviously so that's a great advice you know to other entrepreneurs who might be looking at it and they're like oh i'm going to do it i'm going to do it i'm going to avoid any kind of pitfalls right yeah you shared one of the toughest challenges you faced as a founder during covid and what you learned from it but i was also going to ask about tariffs obviously that has been roiling um you know the global economy recently what has that experience been like for you dealing with tariffs i've learned that the supply chain is very complex to put together our product there's probably over 50 pieces coming from 30 different suppliers across 10 plus countries um and as a relatively small uh i would still consider ourselves a small medium as business we're not an apple right we don't really get to dictate if a manufacturing partner is located in asia or in mexico or in the u.s we are usually a taker of volumes as in a taker of you know the capacity of a factory and sometimes i might mean 10 percent of the factories 15 percent of the factory's capacity we don't get to say oh we are just going to build a factory from day one uh in the u.s or in mexico or wherever else so what we cared about in the beginning is quality uh the ability to deliver an innovative product on time and at a reasonable cost so we could begin to build sort of a new market right we have that vision for this sustainable and healthier hydration future and it requires new products so i think what people don't realize is that small businesses are especially hurt with uh with tariffs that are to plan um and i think it will have an impact uh on innovation and things like this as well yeah absolutely i mean one of the things that i've covered recently um is you know the ways that small businesses try to scramble here in la to get around tariffs and i think that's one of the things that i've covered recently like front loading moving up their product orders um did you have to employ some of those kind of tactics as well or were you kind of also in a bit of a crisis mode as a lot of other businesses were yeah i think this is probably our fourth crisis mode so at some point it just doesn't become a crisis it's just uh the norm the norm so we felt very confident going to it that we had the again we had the team that has been through covid it's been through fundraisings it's been through uh various you know external shocks and we've been able to do a lot of things that we've been able to uh price shocks to everything else that you know we felt like okay well this is not a great experience but we'll find a way to navigate it um so we're we are in the process of diversifying our supply chain from you know today we're 100 sourcing from china uh to more uh broad-based uh sourcing strategy uh actually with some of it even coming back to the u.s as well oh wow yeah well that's music to some people's ears i think what was one of the best in the history of the company for you? I think there was only four. or five people on the team at the time um and we were in the process of launching you know a crowdfunding campaign and people were just in the office we were going to start the campaign at like 7 a.m people were in the office at five in the morning just getting things ready and then there was this moment where like everyone had a cup of coffee in front of them which helped people retired from having stayed up the night before and getting everything ready but at the same time people were super energized right there was this sense of calm before the storm that people were excited that there was a buzz of uh possibility yeah for the future uh and then a few hours later we had you know thousands of orders come in you know and raised over obviously one of the biggest crowdfunding campaigns and and that that morning from that calm before the storm to to that crazy kind of out of the gate experience i think we're that was one of the best uh best experiences yeah i was gonna say i could name a few other great days for your company yeah for you but um that's a really lovely one yeah during those kind of so-called crisis periods that you mentioned did you ever consider throwing in the towel and going back to corporate life because i have to say it's so striking right because you came from the investment world this kind of high-flying white-collar job and you know also the luxury space with lvmh did you at any point sitting there you know you have to be really scrappy there's like not anyone else to do some of the things that maybe you don't want to do in startup life it couldn't be more different i think think about you know maybe this isn't for me or did you absolutely love it i think i loved the totality experience but i i certainly didn't love every moment right and i would be lying if i didn't if i said uh i was always confident that this is the right choice uh the truth is there were those moments where uh you question yourself right is my career moving the right way was this the right choice but i think at the end of the day you have to gather yourself up and you know take another step like i said earlier right the next step is the most important so i think it's fine to have those moments of doubt and we're only human for having it um but i think the important thing is after that moment of doubt can you take the next step what is the single biggest pain point or challenge you're working on right now would it be the tariff situation i think so i think the tariffs is certainly up there uh is it 50 right now on you guys or no what's the rate that you're dealing with it's in the range of 30 to about 55 yeah it's in the range of that lark has a fairly lean team of 50 employees what do you value most when it comes to building a team is there anything you particularly like to ask let's say when hiring it's very important to hire people who are compatible uh with the startup experience i think oftentimes startups are kind of glorified i think in in media where people's perception right i want to work for a startup that is growing at a thousand percent what people don't know is that you know 99 of the startups fail uh and oftentimes it's a grind um so i think you have to find people who are there for the right reasons and who can have longevity with the company right so i actually like to ask a question like well uh i like to turn around uh on people and have them ask me really anything they want maybe the uh you know what is the worst part of the company and i try to be very transparent uh and if i talked about the hard days and sometimes the tough hours but i also give them the uh the good side which is you really do have this sense of accomplishment uh you build a sense of camaraderie with your team um and if you want to get something done you know you should join a startup so i think fit is a two-way street uh and so we're not only looking for oh are you the right fit for our organization i also want to make sure our organization is right fit for the candidate or the team member that is joining uh because oftentimes an interview feels like a very one-way conversation right they're pitching you on them i want to make sure that they have all the information to make the right choice i'd rather have them drop out of the process then i'm going to have them drop out of the process and i'm going to have them realize they were in the wrong place six months nine months twelve months later right it sounds like you think long term quite a lot i really think that's like your investor side coming out maybe lark has been applauded for walking the walk when it comes to doing business for good you guys are known for devoting one percent of revenue to your charity partner one percent for the planet can you talk us through the decision to make that commitment because i'm curious if you got any pushback from stakeholders and if it was tough to make that call no i don't think it was tough that make that call uh from the very beginning we had uh we were a very mission-driven company both in our product uh but also in the space that we're trying to tackle so for us it made a lot of sense to partner up with some of our charity partners um that you mentioned along with many others over the years um to do something positive right and whether that's that was to build wells with well where uh in uh in places in east africa uh or with cherry water to um we really uh try to have a mentality of like we're gonna end this together uh and you know the product only does so much right that if we could build an organization that can also sponsor some great initiatives um that's what we also want to do so i am a reddit lurker uh and i've seen that you personally answer questions from time to time from some of your customers on the lark photo subreddit is that right is that actually you that is actually actually what i am a lurker as well yeah i want to start doing that and how have you found the experience to be honest uh you know that's maybe the most public uh forum but in the early days i was actually uh answering tickets on our customer uh care link uh you know email as well uh they may not have known it was me uh but i like reading i still read every review that gets posted i still go through tickets i still look at reddit or twitter or social media comments i really like the fact that in this day and age uh as the ceo of a company you could still have ground truth right and for me there's nothing more important than ground truth and that comes from the customer all right so i'll take every opportunity that where i could speak with you and i'll be able to with a customer directly or understand your pain point more directly uh i think it doesn't get any better than that in terms of having to buy information to make decisions for your organization right so what is ground truth right that's also talking to people who may not directly report into you so we try to have a flat organization as well and i think that is uh and that also means all the way down to the customer so uh for me that's sometimes jumping on reddit or on twitter yeah to understand what's really happening yeah i imagine it also gives you a good gauge of demand and like ideas for features and things like that yeah yeah when you say also talking to people that don't report directly to you do you mean like you also will try to just do listening sessions internally with folks that might not have access to you all the time it's not a huge organization so so it's still easy to do that but anyone could email me anyone could slack me and schedule time to chat yeah you know and so it's it's probably a little more uh it's pretty fluid given that we're not a big organization it's not very structured so just we just have a culture where everyone can yeah it's very approachable well justin it's been just over a year since lark was acquired by brita a huge milestone in its journey so big congrats thank you this is a bucket list tick for many founders how did the deal come together and how do you see the brand changing under its ownership yeah we felt very fortunate uh to have partner with brita but like all good relationships including one of my co-founder uh it just started out from an email random email we got uh from their corporate development team to just chat uh and then from that very first meeting uh in germany we realized that even though the organizations are of very different size coming from different countries we had a very similar vision for the future which is to make hydration better uh better for the better for people uh from a sustainability from a health perspective um uh so we really spoke the same language um and it was very apparent that there would be a lot of synergies a lot of opportunities right uh in this space to work on something together so over the course of a long uh long journey that took almost a year you know we ended up closing a deal uh and you know we were purchased by uh brita se and uh you know we've been there for a couple years now and it's been a really great journey uh and i feel like that has really provided a foundation for the next chapter for a lark yeah even allowing us to think about things even further out brita is a family business a multi-generational family business and i think that suits us very well in terms of our long return goals and uh in in years and decades rather than in the next quarterly report right so so i think i really appreciated that about that approach i think i would have been happy to keep running lark but having an opportunity partner with someone that could bring so much more resources and distribution and technology to the table I think really advances our vision for the future um and you know I'm really excited for Lark's next 10 years I think it will be uh even more exciting than the first with share my trip from uber you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most 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hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs if we were to sit down again in 10 years where would you want to see yourself and Lark I think 10 years um we have a vision for Lark where we are the go-to brand uh and product line if you're thinking about healthy and sustainable hydration and I might spam from something on the go something in the kitchen or a house um I have this obsession that we shouldn't ship water around the world and plastic containers so I'm also hoping that we've made uh that we've taken the next step in that journey uh of you know kind of making the world see that as well and by providing products that make that journey easier as well so I think we still have a long way to go uh but I think in 10 years we'll we'll be much further along that goal you give a hint as to what more of what that vision entails I think the bottle form factor or the pitcher form factor uh that's a couple of ways to reach that customer but what we've learned over the years is that you know people you know drink water and hydrate in very many many different ways so we want to meet that consumer that's our general strategy right we want to meet the consumer where they have a need rather than say oh wag our fingers at them and say you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that we believe the product should come through the consumer right we should develop a product that makes things easier and makes things uh more straightforward so whether that's you know something that's installed into your sink or in your fridge or uh in your home uh we're on the go maybe lark taps lark lark drinking fountains whatever it may be yeah so that uh so that you know that decision becomes second nature and I'd like to ask briefly about competition a lot of people don't know this but Brita here in the U.S. is actually run by a different company than the one that you're owned by Clorox. Um because Brita SE the German company that came up with the eponymous water filters we all know today actually sold the rights right to the Brita brand in North and South America to Clorox in 1988. Given that dynamic how does this impact Lark's strategy and operations within these markets because it's essentially Brita versus Brita right and you're right there. First I think Brita is a great brand uh even the U.S. uh with um um under Clorox uh I think they are uh they provide a great product uh I think Lark's vision goes beyond the countertop picture uh we're we're innovative by nature uh we're now owned by Brita Germany uh Brita SE obviously there's some overlap in the products that we do and everything uh but at the end of the day I think our our vision is much more using innovative technology and new product designs and new features and new products and new products and new features and new features designs to continue to bridge that gap between what people get out of single use and what people don't get out of more sustainable reusable options right so our goal is to keep bridging that gap with technology and innovation um and I think Brita is a very important step in that direction um but I think we see a lot more opportunities to innovate so we don't really see Brita as oh you know we have to take market share I think the market share that we're trying to go after is this you know half a trillion dollar single use water bottle market globally right and that market is the size of you know that's about the GDP of Thailand right or something like this right yeah yeah yeah that's very mission driven of you obviously to say um it's also been seen that you know Lark this acquisition could be obviously a key way for Brita SE to really dominate the North American market and you know you're a key weapon in that arsenal so I don't know if you see that as well just you know talking roadmap in the near to midterm um anything you can tease in regard to potential expansions geographically or product roadmap or things like that we're looking at uh so Brita SE has a very interesting set of that they were the original innovators of this space right uh so I think if uh for the non-North America listener you probably are more familiar with their under the sink filters with their uh with their bottles with other types of filtration technology that they have they are actually in cafes and uh they have a b2b business as well uh so looking at that innovation portfolio that goes deep in filtration that goes deep into some of these spaces uh I think our product team and our engineering team is having you know a really good time going through that and seeing if we can do something about that and I think that's a really good time going through seeing okay we could build upon that foundation the set of patents and technology and laboratory work and be able to uh productize all of these technologies for the North American market adapted for the North American market so that's one thing that we're just super excited about is access to this wealth of R&D and knowledge uh you know and team that we didn't have or didn't have the scale for right before uh I think the other thing that there's a lot of synergy and you'll see this coming along this year is that um you know they haven't done too much in the bottle space so I think Lark is acting as a little bit of a bottle innovational hub globally for Breda SC we're in this kind of space on the go space uh we have a lot more experience in the D2C space we have a lot more experience uh so I think you'll see that being leveraged into the Breda brand and Breda family uh of products uh more and more in the future as well and just to follow up on that I think Lark is acting as a little bit of a bottle on something you said earlier you said that this whole deal came together through a simple cold email was it yeah from whose side from yours or from theirs uh we got an email from uh Hans Michael their head of corporate development back in the December of 22 yeah 2022 so shout out to Hans Michael thanks for sending us that email wow that must have been a dream come true uh you know but we we did get you know emails from different investors or other corporate partners from time to time um so that's actually acquire you or we're just interested to have a chat so you know you never know where these conversations could go uh but obviously we're going to take it because because it was Breda yeah uh I think is what happens after that first conversation the the the the fit the vision for the future the strategic fit into the company um you know the there are a lack of presence in North America as you mentioned before uh I think those things really clicked after the first conversation yeah yeah I saw also the online to offline retail mix as well it's very complimentary it's very complimentary all right this brings me to a segment we are calling what it takes where an audience member and fellow entrepreneur gets to ask for advice and hear more on what it takes to get where you are so today Isabella a CPG founder based in San Francisco asks Lark's acquisition by Breda is a major milestone what were some of the important lessons you learned navigating this process from initial conversations to closing the deal and what advice would you give to founders thinking long term about strategic exits it's good to have that the outcome in mind when you start right uh you know your vision board or your vision for the future because I think having that north star whatever it is for you as an entrepreneur is very important because I think it will impact all the little things that you're doing in the future and I think it's very important because I think it will impact all the little things that you don't think about every day but at the same time I think people sometimes get lost about oh I need to get to an exit I need to have an IPO I need to um and that becomes all consuming where I need to build it this way so this this potential customer might come in or this potential acquirer might come so as well as good to have that for the future I think what's more important is that you should build a company that you're proud of you should build a company that's sustainable um Because there's nothing more attractive, in my opinion, in terms of building yourself as a acquisition target than building a company that is sustainable, that is building a company that doesn't need to be acquired, right? I think it's important to not get lost in that as well. It's like, exactly how do I build this so this company will buy it, right? So I think building a sustainable company that you feel like is addressing the problems in your segment and just putting one foot in front of the other. And then one day, I think what you'll see is that you've built something hopefully incredible that many people will want to acquire. And that's not necessarily a function of choice. You're trying to be something that you're not, right? So I think you have to be true to your strategy, your vision, and your execution. And that stuff will come, in my opinion. So stick to the core fundamentals and don't try too hard. Don't try too hard. I feel like this is also another big thing for you as well that you've really stayed true to, it sounds like, throughout your journey. All right, we're going to do a quick rapid fire round just to wrap up. It's just two minutes. Just say whatever comes to mind, don't think. Okay. What is your. Your pet peeve in the workplace? You should bring your full self to work. That's like the new parent in you speaking, I feel like. What? That's like the parent in you speaking. Yeah. How many hours of sleep do you get every night? At least seven. Yeah. What's something you do to manage stress? Working out. Yeah, talking to my wife. If you go back and give yourself advice in your 20s, what would you tell yourself? Stay true to your dreams. Things will work out. Yeah. Justin, thank you so much for being here for this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Michelle. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining us on Behind the Business. For more stories on business and leadership, follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week. Mm-hmm. 2538. Experience a membership that backs what you're building. With American Express Business Platinum. Get two times membership. Rewards points per dollar on eligible purchases in key business categories. As well as on each eligible purchase of $5,000 or more. On up to $2 million in eligible purchases per calendar year. American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash platinum. I see you. Avatar Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney+. It's the film critics are calling. The best Avatar yet. Go, go, go, go, go. A true epic and completely jaw-dropping. This is the only pure thing in this world. Return to Pandora on Disney+. It will be an adventure for the whole family. And watch the Oscar-winning phenomenon at home. This is sick. Avatar Fire and Ash. Now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13.