Lanterns is the best release in the DC universe so far, and the Giller shortlist

As a kid in the early 2000s, I joined a scrappy new video site called YouTube. We were girls creating content for other girls, but with our growing success came new rules from the man in charge. There was no reason to believe that anything dangerous was going on. No reason until he was taken away in handcuffs. I'm Lauren White, and from CBC's Split Screen, this is There Goes My Childhood, available now on CBC Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. So the first season of Lanterns went out on an emotional note. This is the HBO superhero series that's been a hit with critics and with fans. It's been scoring 18 million viewers per episode worldwide, and a lot of the praise has been directed at its co-stars Kyle Chandler and Aaron Peer. I'm Brad Simon-Police. I'm David Denz Jr. and Hannah Flint are here to get into this with me. Welcome back to the show, y'all. Hi. Thanks for having me. Hey, listen, we just got to give everyone a heads up. If you didn't watch the Lanterns finale last night, there may be some spoilers in this conversation. David, with that being said, I'll start with you like, how did you feel about last night's season finale? So I felt satisfied. I think we could just stay there. I felt like we got sort of this ending that felt good for the most part. I had some quibbles with it, but for the most part it felt pretty good. It felt like the show kind of went against a lot of the things that we expected from a superhero show. Like everybody expected some big reveal, everybody expected some big set piece fight at the end, but it stayed grounded in this character building of Aaron Peer and him as the Green Lantern and we got something that showed who he is and now as he enters into that superhero world where he's now going to be fighting Superman or fighting with Superman or whatever he does and intergalactic things. We have this grounded kind of messy, kind of brilliant show that put it all together to set the stage for it. Yeah. I mean, I agree with you. I'm glad it kind of went against the expectation of what you would expect from a finale of a show like this. Hannah, what about you? What did you think about it? Yeah. I appreciate it. The lack of zoomies at the end, because there's always that, you know what I mean? I think what I'm always fascinated about in these sort of stories is what is it trying to say. And I think by the end of it, I love that we kind of have these like different threads for different characters, their journeys, the idea of nature versus nurture, the idea of choice and autonomy. And I certainly think that for the journey of a John is coming to a point at an end where instead of other people making decisions, instead of him just following orders and such like that, he's doing something for him. I think that was really powerful to me and I love the kind of how that, the symmetry with a second like kind of storyline with another mother and child. So I thought it was really, really strong and it's cool. It just felt very cool. Well, I mean, David Hanna just kind of pointed out some of the character arcs that this show encompasses. And I mean, we should say, I mean, look, Lanterns, this show has been a bit of a slow burn in terms of like not only how the show unfolds, but also how the buzz around it kept building. So I mean, for those who have been hearing about it, but haven't actually started watching it, can you briefly break down the premise of the show? So Lanterns is about the Green Lantern and who has the ring. And so throughout the comic book lore, I guess there have been different people who have this ring and they're basically the sort of appointed by an intergalactic police force to patrol the world, right? And so different people have the ring and this one is about how Jordan, who was the original Green Lantern and his protege, John Stewart, and who will take over the story of Green Lantern or who will take over being that hero going forward. But this show is not as superhero-y as that. It's grounded in a lot of racial politics, a lot of politic politics, a lot of idea of policing and justice and as Anderson autonomy and things like that that really stray away from what we expect from a superhero show. But it gives us for those people who are interested in that. It gives them a little bit of that to nibble on too. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, in terms of even just the structure of the show, it's drawn comparisons to like true detective more than anything kind of from the superhero verse. Hannah, I mean, look, one of the reasons that Lanterns has struck a chord, I think with audiences, is this chemistry between the two stars? Because on the one hand, you got Kyle Chandler, veteran actor, he's playing howl Jordan, and then you got Aaron Pierre, the UK-born actor, who's really like one of the hottest rising stars right now. I mean, he won so many people over with that Netflix movie Rebel Ridge and then of course he was the voice of Mufasa and the Lion King reboot. Hannah, how did you feel about their chemistry in Lanterns? Oh, I loved it. I just love like a chalk and cheese situation and actually kind of like the way that Kyle Chandler's howl is every bit the kind of jaded sarcastic. It's funny because I've been rewatching Lost and obviously Damian Lindelof, Corey, created them, worked on that. And so it's kind of interesting seeing the Sawyer character and looking at howl Jordan, there's lots of similarities there of like kind of unison humour's offence. But then you have like John Stuart, who is very Sydney Poitier in the way that he carries himself. There is this real sense of dignity that I think is a really powerful, but it's also like the dynamic there of, I don't know, is there some sort of racial underlying? Is it kind of like, you know, when people don't realize they're being a bit racist? They actually are. Maybe it's not saying it's what it's chess, but all those things are there. And then we kind of wrap around to this idea of like, how would they were raised and how's the inform the people that they are? What is their struggles? Do we overcome that to become who we want to be or do we allow that to kind of affect every action that we take? I think those two are fantastic, brilliant chemistry. I loved Kyle Chandler since Friday night lights. So yeah, team. Yeah. I mean, I like how you touch on like, you know, the howl Jordan character specifically, like, is there some racial, like a discord that he just doesn't even recognize in the way he's been brought up and stuff? And then, you know, David, that, that, I think it brings me to kind of one of the, one of the episodes in, in lanterns that really like garnered a lot of buzz. This is the third episode. That's where we got the origin story of Aaron Pierre's character, John Stewart, who is the rookie lantern. You know, that episode explores like Stewart's resolve and his no fear attitude as the outcome of being black and having to be exceptional just to be accepted by this world. I mean, you actually, you wrote a piece on packing all of this. What is it about the themes being explored in that episode that struck that struck out to you? Yeah. I mean, so I had been kind of waiting for this and so what I think of Lindelof, I think of Watchman, which takes this comic book and puts it in this sort of racial component during the time it was, it came out like in the middle of COVID and all this stuff. And so it really, we're kind of waiting for the other shooter to drop in lanterns. And episode three, you kind of get that in this idea of John Stewart as this black boy, like it is a metaphor, the whole episode is a metaphor of the way that we kind of harden these black kids to be prepared for the world, right? You're picked over for a, by all accounts, kind of mediocre white dude. And you were expected to go out and live in the real world that you're going to be unjustly, you know, judged unfairly. You're going to be persecuted and they sort of harden him for this reality. And what is it create on the other side? Like what do we strip away from these black boys when we try to create this world? Or we give them the talk or we tell them, hey, you have to protect yourself. Hey, be, be wary of cops and what we sort of end up on the, on the episode is this hard and character. But what unlocks his power is holding on to his creativity, his sort of innocence, his drawing, the thing that is his passion. And that's what unlocks his actual superpower. So I mean, it's just a really beautifully packed episode of TV that explores what it means to be a hero, why sort of on a meta level, some of these superheroes are white, you know, like there's all of that in there, parenting, the, the mom is a fascinating character. What it means to be fearful and fearless and it really sort of is a turning point for the entire season. I know it was, it was originally going to be later in the season. They moved it up to episode three and I think it was a smart move because it really kind of made everybody sit up and pay attention to the show in a different way. Yeah. I mean, I thought there was something there as well. I just wanted to add because I was watching an interview with one of the writers of the writers. And one of the things they had to also do by casting Aaron Pierre, who is obviously a lighter skinned black man. What does that mean when you kind of write it into a script where it's colour conscious? So he's, they said, they call him chosen because he's lighter skinned, therefore, you know, he's going to get more attention. And his mother maybe thought that he would find it easy in the world because he's come out that way. And I think that's just so brilliant in when you cast someone, how do you make that fit the role, not just kind of just throw in on it and they're expect every single black person to have the same experience. So I really liked hearing that and it's recognising that in the work. Yeah. I mean, I want to stay on this idea of, you know, the. you know, curating the role to the person you're casting here, especially when we're talking about Aaron Pierre, because, um, you know, we got to talk about how his lanterns character went viral, and it's all thanks. It's all thanks to this scene. So you got about ten seconds to tell me the truth. Oh nine eight stop seven, stop! Six, stop. I'm human. I'm human. Okay, where are you? So, Adam that moment went viral because Aaron Pierre's character is American and yet Aaron Pierre himself is from the UK. And people noticed that Aaron's British accent slipped out in Nazi when he yelled speak up. I can't do the British accent myself, but um, I don't think I can do it. It's such, it's such a specific, like, he's from Croydon, which is South London. So, like, there's such a different case. It's like British accents. Oh, there's so many. Um, so yeah, no, it's like, it's funny. And he did so good. I'm surprised I didn't do ADR to, like, cover it over. Right. Afterwards, like, maybe we should take it out, but I don't know. Maybe there's, like, you've got to have someone who's not perfect. But what did you make of all the attention that that moment got? Like, uh, yeah, I thought it was fun. Yeah, I think it's really fun. I think, um, I think it's been funny seeing Aaron Pierre talk about it. Um, I think he's been interviewed and asked about it. Um, yeah, you know, I don't know what else to say. It's a funny moment. And also the way he says it and just reminding us. I think some people always don't realize, like, the amount of people, and it's not just, like, the likes of Idris Elbrough. I think sometimes I see, um, like, Christian Bale, like, people go, I had no, they see an interview. I'm like, I had no idea this guy was bridge. So I just go to show, like, we're pretty good at doing the accent. And I don't know. Sometimes we slip up, but let's make a meme out of it. Well, I mean, look, David, it's also, like, we should note that it's not like, uh, all of the reaction towards this, this accent slip up was, was entirely positive, right? Because it did reignite these kind of longstanding tensions regarding, like, black British actors taking a lot of black American roles in Hollywood. So, uh, what did, what did you make of those criticisms? Yeah, I mean, that's, that's always kind of going to be there. And I think it sort of came up in that, but also came up in his singing of Spodiodi Dupalicious. This dude is like sort of awkwardly singing outcasts, doesn't seem natural to him. But they, again, a show writes to it, right? They go back and they talk about his brother saying that he did not know how to sing along the outcast, but probably because they saw that, they said, what do you got to say about the way this dude is singing this song? I don't, I don't have, like, I'm not on that train of too many British actors doing, like, that's sort of something that is couched in other politics that is kind of disingenuous when it comes to this. So, I mean, I think he's a fantastic, done a fantastic job and he brings something great to John Stuart. I think the only thing that takes me out of the realism, like, I can believe in the flying and the rings and all this stuff, it's the fact that Aaron Pierre, like, in real life, there's not enough people talking about how beautiful this man. Like, it should be brought up in every, like, episode that somebody looks at him and says, you are impossibly beautiful. And it's part of the dialogue that comes up. Like, you just do not look at a guy like that and he walk into a room and you just act like it's just a normal dude. Like, it's just a distractingly beautiful man. I think that some of this should be acknowledged in pretty much every role that he's in. I feel like I've been acknowledged since we saw him in the Underground Railroad. Right. He's got to talk about it. Yeah, he's got to talk about it. And over to you, like, I mean, I just got about a minute left here. But I do want to bring it back to Lanterns for a second in terms of, like, look, this show, it's been getting over 18 million viewers worldwide per episode. And, you know, this is the series that, this series is part of the James Gunn era at DC. So, you know, we had James Gunn's Superman and then the Supergirl reboots on the big screen and then peacemaker on the small screen. Where does Lantern sit for you among these releases from this new DC universe? Yeah, I think it's, I would say it's my favourite so far. I thought Supergirl was just shut your shame that that is what they ended up producing. I think I, you know, going back to what you said, David about, like, Damon Lindelof, like, Watchman was such a fantastic adaptation that situates these superhero stories in real world social, racial issues. I think that's what I like because that's what goes back to the comic books. That's what it's always been about, you know, the fact that John Stuart never wore the mask because he, in the comic books, because he's like, I'm a black man and I'm not going to hide behind it. And that is a sort of energy that I want from these series where if you're going to have these big things where it's intergalactic wars and there's politics and all that, I want them to steep it in the truth. So, actually, it can be a better reflection of what's going on. I think it's fantastic and I cannot wait for season two. I love that. David, what about you, I got 30 seconds. What's your take on where this stands in DC? Yeah, I agree. It's my favourite, especially after Supergirl. It is a nice refresher, but yeah, it really does. I mean, one of the things with DC that's sometimes difficult is it feels so foreign. Like, one of the, like, everything, it's just so powerful. They don't feel relatable. This felt like a grounded show where I can relate to characters where it brings something that is different that we don't always see to these comic book shows. I think it's fantastic. I think it does set the stage for an incredible season two, especially now that we've center on John Stewart and hopefully Kyle Chandler somehow comes back because nobody stays dead and comic book things. But like, I just think that we are, it is sort of the standard, the gold standard of the gun air right now. Yeah, so I mean, we usually get so tired of all these superheroes always coming back, but we'll allow it for Kyle Chandler, I guess. All right, listen guys, you got me so excited for another season of this. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thanks a lot. David Dennis Jr. is a veteran music journalist and culture critic. He's in Atlanta. And Hannah Flint is a film and TV critic and the author of Strong Female Character. She's based in London, England and you could stream the entire first season of Lanterns right now on Crave. In a world where the news feels bigger, louder, and harder to make sense of, Canadians need more than headlines. Hi, I'm Karen C. Olin, news reporter and host of the big story podcast from world shaping events to the everyday stories that spark debate. My team and I will explain what matters and why it matters to you. We're here to help you make sense of the news and give you the context you need for those kitchen table conversations trusted, Canadian focused, curious. Listen to the big story wherever you get your podcasts. So the Giller Prize recognizes the best in Canadian fiction every year. And the short list for this year's awards was just announced this morning that brings the list of contenders for this $100,000 prize down from 14 novels to just five. Talia Cleot from CBC Books has been covering the Gillers for years and she's here with me now in studio. Talia, welcome to the commotion. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm just down the hall, but I've never actually been in in the studio. It's so fun. I love that and I love that you kind of, you brought all five of the shortlisted books in hand with you into the studio. I did. I did. I feel like I'm like on my first day of school, like springing as many books as I can carry in my backpack. Oh my god, you're armed and ready. Well, break it down for us. What are the five books on that short list? Okay, so first we have Wild People Quiet by Tara Jero. It's like a historical fiction set in Saskatchewan about a matey woman hiding her identity. Then we have your breath in Charcoal by Nicholas Herring. This is a road trip to guys on a road trip from New Brunswick to the big city of Toronto. Then we have Eliza Sunshine by Michelle Good. This is three generations of pre-women finding strength in storytelling. The small ones by Nazanine Hozar, a haunting story told through the perspective of child soldiers in the Iran Iraq war. And good people by Pat Meena Sabet. This is like a story about family, like one tragedy strikes, what people say and finding out what happens behind closed doors and what is true and what is not true. So when you look at all those books and all that short list, is there anything that stands out for you? Yeah, well, I mean, I think my first thing is that this is a good stack of books. Like, this is a nice, like these are nice books to not only have on your bookshelf because they look pretty, but also these are good books that like I've thoroughly enjoyed. I've only read four out of five. So a bit of a slacker, but we'll get there. But I think like this, I really like that it covers a wide range of topics, different, like all kinds of different stories from different voices. It's nice that only one of these authors, Michelle Good, has been on a giller long list before. All of the others are new to the prize. So it's kind of nice to see new voices recognized. And one thing that I personally love about this short list is that I'm a big historical fiction fan. And I love books that kind of will bring in parts of the past to tell us something about the current moment we're living in. And these books are really great examples of that. Well, I mean, you sound very high on this list. And as you said, you've only read four of the five. But like, is there any one of those that you think would make a very interesting win? Yeah, I mean, I, like, this is my opinion. I'm not the jury, but I think good people by Pat Minasabit would really, like that to me is like, what, what a bum. my my colleague Katie recommended it to me and whenever you get a recommendation from Katie like you got a hunker down and I like cancel my plans for the weekend. I'm reading this book and every time I turn the page I have a different feeling about what happened and this is a debut book also. It's her first like this author's first ever book and you can see how much thought and effort she put into writing this story because every page it's told like it's a different character speaking and it's never you never get to see like the inside of the family and their opinions. It's all from the outside. So you're hearing all this like cacophony is that how you say that? I like only note in French but like these these voices telling you what to believe and you just have no idea and I can just imagine the post it that she had like while she was writing this of like all the different voices and when to reveal what and like to me that's like that's masterful and I I really loved it. Okay amazing. Can I just ask which was which is the one that you haven't gotten to yet? Okay I haven't gotten to your breath and shark charcoal but I'm like I love a road trip. So I'm really I'm really excited. I hope they include road trips snacks because that's generally my job on the road trip. I like to keep everyone stocked with non-melty chocolate and gummy bears. Okay I love that. I should we should point out look like the Giller prize of course has experienced a lot of turmoil in recent years right. I mean there were there were protests and boycotts in response to the war in Gaza and then there were these changes both to its title sponsor and the funding model. Yeah. How how has the book world responded to the Giller these days? I think I think it's a bit of a mixed bag right so like they've cut ties with their former sponsor of Scotiabank and now they're being like funded by the Hillary and Weston at Hillary and Gail and Weston Foundation. Thank you for that. And I think like you know the official boycott is has kind of ended and some authors who previously weren't associating with the Giller's are doing so again but I also think that some authors and book people weren't really happy with how the whole situation was handled and maybe are still keeping their distance from the prize so so it's a bit of both. Well I mean and then there's also this other change this year because this is the first year that the Giller prize is not awarded by a jury of authors. So instead this year the jury's made up of entirely of independent Canadian booksellers. Right. So how has the literary community responded to that change? So also I think it's been kind of a mixed bag. I think people were confused because you know we've had all these juries of authors in the past and you know it's gone well and I think people were kind of concerned on especially like this group of juries. They're seven independent booksellers. There's been concerns that you know there's a lack of diversity most of these jurors at least like appear to be white and like geographical representation is not completely fulsome. I don't know if that really like yeah but like there's no there's no authors from Quebec for say a Montreal or so but no I think like there's also a really interesting side though to having booksellers be juries be the jury because they're the people who are going they're like talking to Canadians they know what Canadians are reading they know what books Canadians are buying so I think like they kind of have like this people's choice vibe to the to the award and to the to the choices which is interesting and I chose in the list because three of these books are national bestsellers and the two that aren't yet are and they probably will be after this morning once they they've been announced but they they're just recently out so I think it's it is interesting to hear from like what like obviously they're bringing in their own opinions but they also know what people are interested in what people are buying and I mean look like you sound very high on this list I mean do you think that the short list would look really different this year if they if the authors were if the other panel was made up of authors it's so hard like I can't really say but I do I do think that this list is pretty reflective of like some of the great books we have in Canadian Canadian books this year but I mean there are so many great books and ones that were not on the list and you can never really know like what people are going to pick what people are going to gravitate towards and it's just like it's impossible I don't envy the jury any jury to have to decide which books to that that get to make it okay well listen tell you thank you so much for for walking me through all these books and I'm sure like everyone's gonna be eager to hunker down on them I hope so tell you Cleot is a journalist at CBC books CBC will be broadcasting the Giller winner ceremony on November 16th and that's it for the podcast today remember you can listen to any episode of commotion at any time wherever you get your podcast and check us out on youtube and instagram we're at commotion cbc I'm rad simon play sitting in for elimin up death my mood and i'll see you tomorrow for more cbc podcasts go to cbc.ca/podcasts