'Lanterns' Episode 6 Deep Dive

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Tap the banner to grab a gift for every hardworking person on your holiday shopping list or head to Carhartt.com. Carhartt.com. Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today is not Mallory Rubin. It is Rob Mahoney. Rob Mahoney, how are you doing? The pregnant pause worries me. It's like Guy Gardner flying into Rushville. Okay. Don't, don't put that on my hair. You know, that's a very rude thing to say about anybody. Everybody supports and admires your hair. I don't think that's true, but that particular bowl cut deserving of any horrible thing you can say about it. It's a tough look. All right. We're going to. We're going to dive into the bowl cut, the white leather, all, all things, Guy Gardner, right after this. All right. Lantern season one, episode six. Mallory Rubin is on a much deserved vacation. Yes. I was taken ill last week, which was our plan to sort of prerecord. So what was, what was the plan if you had fallen? I was taken ill and gravely ill. Was it just going to be me solo potting house of art? Were you ready? No. But maybe. Do you think you could crack the four hour marker if it was just you? You know what? The depths of, I feel like a solo pod. Yeah. If you can get over the 20 minute hump. Yeah. The depths of insanity you will stumble into will take you into three and four hours. What's the subject matter that you think you could go longest on if you needed to just like NBA aside. Yeah. Like pop culture wise, what's the subject matter that you could easily crank out four hours? The Beatles biopic experience. I almost sent you the video of them coming out on the balcony. Did you see it? I got to say I'm coming around on Mezcal Paul. I, but Joe Quinn George is like really tough. All right. That's not the one. We're here to talk about lanterns. Season one, episode six. Um, lanterns season one, episode seven will come out maybe Monday, Tuesday, whenever Mallory comes back from vacation. Um, after that, we're getting ready for a vision quest. We're gonna do a WandaVision rewatch. Remember WandaVision? What a delightful show. Well, sorry. What a delightful half a season of a show. Nope. The whole thing. Um, and so yeah, we'll be, we'll be watching WandaVision. And then later this week though, I am doing a book recommendation podcast, house of reads. So, uh, you guys have been doing a really good job. Listeners have been doing a really good job sending in their book recommendations, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Uh, Rob doesn't read fiction, but how well representative will nonfiction be on this zero percent, you know, unless you have some suggestions, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft. Like if you have a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do like a nonfiction history of witchcraft, you can't do something like that. you can't do something like that. below you? If only there were a book about like the Marvel Cinematic Universe or something like that, that I could recommend. Like a New York Times bestseller, perhaps? Possibly, something to think about. We'll see. So that's what's coming up. Follow us on socials, subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Email us, as I said, at hoppinsanddragons at gmail.com. Spoiler warning for today, Lantern's up through episode six. I don't have a lot of comic book lore to drop on people today, so I don't think we're really going to do like a ton of. like lore diving today, but it could come up. Any other spoiler warning you want to issue? I think they'll come up as they do. Okay. You know, we'll dip and dive into spoiling, I'm sure, all manner of things. Great. Let's go to the opening snapshot. Episode six. I'm just now thinking about your four-hour Beatles biopic. How much I want to watch it and listen to it. Don't turn me with a good time. Episode six, Bad Optics, directed by Stephen Williams, written by Justin Gibson and Damon Lindelof. Justin wrote the previous episode. Stephen Williams directed a previous episode this season. And these are all people who have worked with Damon Lindelof before. So this is just like a very Lindelof-y verse-y episode. Rob Mahoney, I haven't really talked to you in depth about Lanterns at all. Somehow we've dodged it. We've just been talking about Slow Horses and a number of other things. How are you feeling about the show in general? And how do you feel about this episode? I really enjoy the show a lot. Tell me. I think I've just found it so surprising. Not just like the twists and turns of the plot, some of which are conventional, but like I think the adult nature of it. There have been more like hearts removed from chests than I was expecting. I think part of the reason that certainly the Marvel TV experience, but honestly also the Marvel movie experience had kind of worn out its well, was like the guardrails were so clearly defined. We've seen so many of these movies now. We know what they can and can't show. We know what they will and won't do. Even just the idea that in this episode, like I really thought when we got the flash forward of Hal with a hole in his head, that this is some shenanigans, right? Like this is a misdirect. This is like they somehow manipulated the hologram to do this. Like there's going to be a way where Hal Jordan is still alive because you don't cast a character this big with an actor this beloved. And then, take him off the board. I will say there are still people out there who are clinging to that theory. You know, I mean, that's, that's proof enough to like, we just want someone like Kyle Chandler doing this kind of stuff. And it's been so fun that I'm just amazed at what they are willing to do in the places that they're willing to go. So you mean narratively or you mean like in sort of the violence sector or do you mean or maybe all of the above or do you mean sort of like when you're talking about the guardrails for the MCU? I didn't know if you meant like sort of, from adult content point of view or if you meant you know sometimes the MCU would like to say oh we're doing these various genres in this film or that and some you know we're doing winter soldier we're doing espionage whatever it is conspiracy thriller but there were always sort of limitations because they were trying to fit the puzzle pieces back together and I'm not just here to take some shots at recent MCU for no reason because I think what's really key about this episode is the experiment of can we do a true detective gritty esque show and still make it fit back into larger continuity so can we drop Guy Gardner into this world that we've created and does it still feel like it makes sense and on the one hand yes and on the other hand no like yes it does like it really works I was really nervous about it but it really works but I think it only works because he's such a punchline character that he shows up looking like a cartoonish buffoon inside of this hyper realistic world but it like goes with his character do you know what I mean but not only does it go with his character it goes with the lanterns like as an organization there's just something inherently goofy about the idea the magic ring nature of it like I enjoy lanterns as a concept the most when they're this weird goofy political apparatus of people like these random ass aliens who aren't even trying to get along with each other they're just all going in different directions at once like that's what makes them fun and to me it's it kind of grounds them in a way it's still like interstellar and intergalactic and they're space cops yeah but have your space cops be goofy enough and understand that in context to each other I think that's just been the question this whole season is like in terms of the the bright green constructs or in terms of Sinestro being here like how goofy and comic book do we want to go and there are certainly people who are like it's not green and goofy enough or you know or it's too serious or it's too dour and I just think the something that Mallory and I've been discussing is just sort of the line they've been walking and inside of this episode you know which is very light on Kyle Chandler which I you know I think the more Kyle Chandler the better and I'm really relieved to see that the hologram hologram is going to be used the way I was hoping it would be used which is to extend yes extend Kyle Chandler's he can just be around as much as they're willing to pay him and he's willing to leave his ranch in Texas to do it you know and so yes something we've been worried about is is tone and humor and I think in a microcosm sense inside of this episode when you get something like how Jordan's self eulogizing right and you've got John with his own complicated relationship with how reading the eulogy and it is so like genuinely funny and then it is genuinely devastating like I hope I matter oh my god I hope I matter I think it's just going to go down in history it's funny I googled that phrase before the episode came out and there are certain like things that hit or whatever and then I googled it after and obviously like it's it's juiced by the fact that the episode just came out but like now pages and pages of results are just this show and that's when you get a you know to go back to WandaVision when you get like you know what is grief I hope this is not that why do you why do you have such hatred for that line I think it just became so like nevertheless she persisted to you no it was almost just like this is the totem that we're going to hold up to show that the thing we love is serious to everyone else And it's just like, just love the thing you do in its own self-evident truth. It felt like trying to prove something to other people, at least the way that line was weaponized on the internet. That's not, I don't believe I ever weaponized it that way. But I think what I, what it feels like when you hit something like, I hope I mattered, which is not highfalutin language, it's very simple, but it drills down into a universal truth. And I think that's what, what is grief below persevering does. But when you hit something that just like feels so true, feels identifiable and quotable and just sort of like, I hope I mattered, really pops. And so in general, like, was this my favorite episode of the season? No, but I really, really liked it. I had been worried about like, how is it going to feel when we're just solidly in the 2026 storyline? How is it going to feel to not have as much Hal Jordan around, you know? And I think the first time I watched this episode, I was a little off balance. But on subsequent rewatches, I've really come to like, love this episode. I think the lack of Hal is the important part, right? Like, if Jon Stewart is going to be a lantern of relevance for the future of the cinematic universe, like, he needs to be able to carry stories like this without Kyle Chandler in the frame. Like, Guy Gardner cannot be our only mainstream canonical lantern forever. Well, no, and Jon Stewart is going to be like, our lantern. I mean, too big a character. I mean, most of my introduction and association with that character. Through the DC animated stuff, as are a lot of people of our generation, I think. You're using our generation incorrectly. Am I? Yeah, your generation. Who is your Jon Stewart? Like, how did you find your way in? From people younger than me watching the animated Justice League. I wasn't trying to date you. You don't have to ouch yourself in this way. No, but like, when you said, when you started to say that, I was like, yeah, because Rob's of the generation and younger for whom Jon Stewart is your lantern because of the animated series. We've been talking about that a lot. And so, like, he. I love that. I love the decision to put Jon Stewart, who was such a sort of like third tier comic book lantern as the A-team animated lantern for a generation. And now he's our live action lantern. Like, it's really it's thrilling. I think it will be thrilling. And this this episode, maybe more than any of the season, is the proof of concept of him as a solo lantern experience. You do have Guy coming in for the punchlines. Yeah, but this is like a like without how. He has a lot of frame to fill, a lot of story to carry. And I personally was delighted at how often this just drifted straight into Rebel Ridge territory with Aaron Pierre just being surrounded by guys who he needs to beat up. Sign me up for as much of that as you would like to do. You're like, where's the road bike, though? Where's the civil forfeiture happening in here? It's true. One thing, you know, that Mal and I had been sort of speculating about it was possibly a way to use Kyle Chandler was to give us flashbacks to what he was up to between 2016 and 2026. But now that's like for the most part off the table because he was locked up for the last decade. I mean, we can check in on what he was doing. Well, we know what he was doing. In prison, writing letters. He was making the moves. He was courting. I mean. He was going courting. Look, clearly no one in this show and in the world is immune to Kyle Chandler's charms. Yeah. Except for Jon Stewart. Like he is the one who seems impervious. I don't know. It kind of works on Jon, too, I think. It's true. Certainly by the end, all it took was one self-written eulogy. He's like, man, I'm back. Yeah. All I know is like Bernadette went from lifelong grudge against this man. Fuck this guy who sat at my kitchen table. Now she's like sending him pinups for the long nights in prison. This is unreal. Is that what you think was going on between Bernadette and Hal? I think there wasn't nothing going on. Okay. Okay. What do you, Rob Mahoney, think you would do if you got a voice memo from Kyle Chandler? Calling me buttercup? Calling you buttercup. I think I would be more responsible. Receptive to it than Carrie would be. Oh, I don't know. I think it kind of worked on Carrie. I think, I think the idea of we are finding our pet names seem to work on her. I just can't imagine a universe in which she accepts buttercup as like, okay, this is the one we're settling on. What do you think is a, what do you think the endearment that she would go for would be? That's not for me to say. Okay. I'm just basing off like, yes. But like the person, you can't choose your own endearment. You can't choose your own nickname. You can't choose your own endearment. But I think you have a certain amount of veto power. For sure. I think she liked buttercup. You think so? Yeah. I think there are people like Sheriff Carrie who are hard asses all the time and want to be buttercuped when they're at home. I think that's true. Hard ass in the streets, buttercup in the sheets? Correct. Or buttercup at least while you're watching. Sure. Cuddled up under the fuzzy blanket together. Splitting a pizza. Yeah. And watching the Scurs, the Huskers. The Scurs, apparently. The Scurs, I guess. I don't know. You know, let's, let's leave that be where it belongs in the Midwest, but I think regardless of however she would have reacted, had Hal continued to live, now she has to accept it because this is the voice memo she holds dear and I'm sure will replay many times throughout her life. Sad. Yeah. All right. Quick mailbag from our listeners. Just a couple this week. So on those sort of people still not being willing to give up the idea that Hal Jordan is still alive somewhere. Our listener Bill wrote in to say, can't believe Stewie using Guy Gardner's nickname for Jon Stewart. Went to all the trouble to dig up Hal's corpse and didn't cut his heart out just to make sure he's not a Manhunter. He knows there's a mystery going on in Manhunterville. He knows that Zoe didn't change back when she died. Got to make sure that the corpse is really Hal. So would you, Rob Mahoney, in all your skepticism, endorse cutting out the heart of Hal Jordan just to make really sure that it's Hal Jordan? Okay. So that email is from Billy? Bill. Bill. Bill. What kind of sick fuck are you? Do your favorite down the camera address. Are we just cutting the hearts out of everybody now? Every corpse that rolls through the morgue? Well, are you not? I mean, Bitsy probably should, but like. I love Bitsy. I mean, who doesn't love Bitsy? But like, where are you on the larger? There is another Skywalker. There is another Manhunter theory. Of course there is. And y'all have been all over it. Noah is obviously a Manhunter. Okay, great. Why else is he in the show? Okay. Follow up. Email from our listener, Joe. If we find out that Zoe named this kid as a not subtle anti-lanterns message, Noah equals no O-A. Let's chalk that up as he was just going through all of Zoe's mistake. And he was like, he's like, yes, naming children is tough. And she wouldn't be the first villain with a desire to coyly mock her adversary. Looking at you, Riddler. It's fine to settle on Noah for first couple suggestions were Manny or Hunter. But if you're trying to hide another Manhunter, let's keep our eye on the goal and just name him Kevin. Um, I actually think Noah's name. I love the idea that it's no O-A. Yeah. I think it's like, I mean, that is cute. I think it's Noah. We're repopulating the earth two by two. That's why I think he's named Noah. We are going arc heavy in this episode. There is an arc reference. A little arc reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess the question is, do you think there's any more than Noah at this point? Noah feels very solid. Well, our theory had been that perhaps Billy was like a shittier Manhunter, but the way he just went down with one punch from John, I'm taking Billy off the Manhunter board. Well, plus, and look, this is where it gets a little uncomfortable with the Noah conversation. But one of the definitive things we know about Manhunters is they fuck. Like this is what they do. It's true. And look, everyone wanted to fuck Zoe constantly. And it kind of seems like the whole town wants to fuck Noah. I mean, everyone's like really into the hat ceremony. I had never considered that modern courtship in sports today is really just the scholarship and recruiting of a hat ceremony. Wow. Think about it. Joe, you're blowing my mind. There is a, there is a scene. Uh, I kind of spun out trying to hear what they were saying when, uh, John's at the dinner table at Sheriff Carrie's house and she gets a phone call. That's like, Hey, did you know that John got into a street fight with Billy and some, uh, rednecks? Um, Noah and John are carry on a conversation in the background. Yeah. And the only thing that the closed captioning grabs is like the last, uh, line where he says something like, Lila is great. Thanks for asking. Uh, hoping that it's a Lila Garrity, uh, sort of nod who's to say, but, uh, he says, he says that. And so then I was like, okay, what were they talking about? That that's like the end. And so we go back and you hear, it seems like John had been hearing rumors of like Noah's many exploits. Cause he's like, uh, I heard of Elisa or a Lula. Like he's like, he's like Mambo number fiving, like naming all these girls that Noah's dating. And he's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he's dating. So if you're talking about like who in town has game, I love this, the hat ceremony sort of like sports analogy. But I also think Noah literally is like cleaning up with the L uh, named girls of the town. Yeah. I mean, especially as opposed to five teenagers who are left in Rushville, I don't know. And maybe this does kind of feed into Billy as failed man hunter, because that guy is just swaggerless. And frankly, like some of it is having Jason Ritter, an actor I think has many great qualities, deliver threats of physical violence. It's just like one of the least believable things on this show. And what's true about Jason Ritter is I believe he has this like inherent sort of nerdy swagger to him. Yes. So they've like asked him to turn off all of his charisma for Billy. Uh, so yeah, I don't think he's a man. I don't think so either. He could be like a shitty failed man hunter or just not a man hunter at all. That seems most plausible. But Noah, I mean, I would be shocked at this point and really the tell of all tells in this episode, even if you were never on this train, you didn't buy it to this point. Lanterns asks you to bend your belief in a lot of things. right like there's a magical ring that has infinite capacity to construct anything that your imagination could possibly dream up i'm on board sure a 18 year old sits at a dinner table and says the phrase i love politics in 2026 this is an alien he wants to be president i'm sure it's fine don't even worry about it he has like a nine-year-old wrote to fema don't worry about it it's fine everything's gonna be fine uh i'm really excited for billy to be our billy for president honestly we've done worse you know what we have uh let's go now to it's not gonna be a classic deep dive but we're gonna call it the deep dive yeah without mal i mean am i am i deputized in this situation like i can at least buy the power vested in me i mean i would think the podcasting core i can feed a plant i can dragon sit i could do something but you know obviously it's not gonna be as dragon sit yeah how what kind of dragon sitter would you be do you think attendant okay you know responsible i want i want to like treat them enough where they like me but not so much that they're spoiled rotten when mal comes back of course no no you got to keep them lean and mean um on the noah front and then we will start at the beginning of the that's, then they will really have surprised me. Do you know what I mean? Well, so walk me through Noah as killer. Because admittedly, I will say this is my biggest blind spot on the show right now is it's established in this episode that like whatever it is that killed Hal, he saw it coming. It's like head on nine millimeter, relatively close range. It's either Carrie or it's Noah. That's what I think. It's either Carrie protecting Noah. Yes. As she promised to Zoe that she would do. Or it was Noah himself. Yeah. I'm of two minds about it because there's a part of me that really suspected her. And I like all the moments inside this episode where she's like, do you think I did it and called you? And this is the cover for me doing it. You know, they're sort of like lampshading the lampshade to sort of just say like, we're just going to say your theory. Yeah. And if we say it, you know, sort of thing. But I agree with John that she's actually quite heartbroken about. So she could be heartbroken because she had to kill him. She could have killed him. She could have killed him and been heartbroken about it. The reason I'm worried that it's or I'm wondering if it's Noah. Because I like the idea that it's Carrie desperately sad that she's doing it. And he just sort of like, does he say like, it's OK, buttercup? And like, let's do it. I think he might have. It's OK, buttercup. I think he might have even encouraged her. OK. Oh, no. You think in the it's OK, buttercup. Like, I know you have to do this. I have to be here. This is what it's got to be. But the Noah thing, to go back to what Zoe said, earlier about killing Abin Sur, you know, when she tells John about that. And she's just sort of like she didn't want to do it, but it was sort of just in her nature to survive. So I feel like Hal has figured out is on the case that Noah, that there's something going on with Noah. Like, I think Hal, I think he's genuinely there for Carrie. Like, I don't think he's in town just to investigate Noah. Yeah. But I think when he's there, he's like, why does this entire town want to fuck this kid? Like, oh, no. Is he a mini man? Well, at the risk of Buffy spoilers, he's got the Letterman jacket. It's a powerful thing. I can't believe you're referencing a season seven episode of Buffy. I'm sorry. You know, there are some bangers. Actually, I don't know that that one's a banger, but it has its qualities. I did write Never Kill a Boy on a First Date when John's like, I love an autopsy. It's like, I've seen that before. Let me ask. I didn't have a chance to listen to the last episode of House of R. Please forgive me. Oh, I do. Did you comment on the official like fighting via lampshade in? Yeah. It's been a show that has been lampshading so heavily. I mean, they're literally beating the shit out of each other with lampshades. Brilliant. What a show. This is why. What a series. This is why you're the best. But like. Something that Zoe said to Noah right before she died when she's like, hey, you're a manhunter. I'm a manhunter. Remember the lessons that I taught you when she said that in the last episode? She literally said it. So Zoe said to Noah right before she died, what did I tell you about spying? And he said. See you without being seen. And inside of this episode, we get Carrie saying to John, I just know when I never like went there, like basically I never told him that I was dating Hal. And then in this episode, Noah says at the dining room table, I know you guys were together. Do you think I'm a fucking idiot? You know what I mean? So he it feels like he discovered using this sort of like see without being seen, discovered that Hal and Carrie were in a relationship. So. Could that have been a reason for him to. Could be. Do something. But would that be reason enough to kill him? I think it's more that he felt like threatened. Yeah. By Hal and could have killed him. Yes. Or Carrie felt like Noah was being threatened by Hal and felt like compelled by her program, you know, her own programming, the way in which they're all sort of under the sway and the spell of the manhunter. Like, where are your obligations? And I think that would fit in really well for the larger conversation the show is having about like. Where where does your allegiance or your obligation lie like the way in which John is being pulled in nine different directions inside of this episode between his brothers and his parents and then like the pull of Hal and the pull of the ring and the pull of Rushville. I think that sort of like where does your allegiance lie? Same with like Hal and Sinestro and the guardians and all the sort of thing like what what law do you obey and oughtn't it be something inside of you? And I think that's what's so interesting about where we find John here in twenty twenty six because we're watching him. We know he's going to wind up being a lantern by the end of this this series. One would think we have two more episodes, right? He's got a ring on his finger now. Like, that's great. But he has he rejected it before. So ten years later, what is different now that he's choosing it like was eating meat now? OK, that's back on the menu. OK, it's just the iron. Honestly, it might be, you know, he's a different man. Well, look. I think there is the larger some of the quaint idea within the larger theme that you're exploring. There is like, can you ever have a normal life if you were raised to be chosen one space cop? Not just like, who do you listen to? But like, is that even a plausible thing to want for yourself or to expect? I think the answer from this episode is like pretty clearly no. Like every time he attempts to have it all, it just blows up in his face. People are hanging up the phone. Things are going wrong left and right. Like that doesn't seem like something that would be in the cards for him. But like he is. Just trying to protect people in his own way, I guess, as a civilian is just like there's a limit to that. Like you can only put 20,000 people even in your little dream arc shelter. But you put that ring on your finger and anything is possible. It's like, how do you resist that pull? I don't know. To give a little like prestige TV cross promotion. Were you thinking at all about the storage container apartment pitch in Slow Horses? They look exactly like them. It looks exactly like that. Except these are. I mean, blast proof, disaster proof, starfish proof. You don't think Sternloy is is giving us that? I don't think the integrity is quite the same. Here we go. John gets into the panic industry. He's in Midway. He lives in Midway City now, which is, as I'm sure you know, Rob, home of Hawkgirl canonically in the D.C. I do love Hawkgirl. We all love Hawkgirl. I'm going to be honest. Who doesn't? The turtleneck and the overcoat look, which he wears in like various, you know, earth tone hues inside. It's like this is really his look that he's unlocked. Phenomenal. Oh, you think his earth tones might speak to us? I think we look great. Arjuna, let us know that it's the fall equinox tomorrow. So we're just sort of representing for the autumnal colors. I think we felt it in the same way that John, I'm sure, felt it. The chill in the air. He's like, it is turtleneck season. But it's very it's very like polished detective. Very much. You know, sort of like Jesse Elmore in Law and Order. Kind of like look at my overcoat moment. And I think it looks. It's fantastic. And I think you should. Look, I think you should only wear that forever. It looks great. If you've at any point in this show been like complaining about, oh, why don't they wear the Green Lantern uniform? Or it's like this man has a uniform. It's just a turtleneck and it looks amazing. All right. So does. Do you. What do you think the show is trying to say about the fact that John no longer lives in Detroit? He's moved to Mid-City. It's just like this distancing from his parents. Yes. Which is all over this episode. Right. Like clearly there's been a massive falling out. There's some hints as to why that may or may not have been the case or whether people are reading the situation correctly. But he refuses to talk to his dad. He's now on first name basis with his mom. Not always a great sign. So it's a relationship with his brothers, clearly. And like they are trying to kind of hold everything together. But things have changed for him a lot. And I think trying to move on is one thing. But trying to put some distance between you and your parents is a whole other way. But it's all transactional. Like the relationship that he has with his brothers, you know, like in one case, funding his music career. Right. So that's a that's a clearly sort of fractured relationship that's based entirely on what can you do for me? And then with Marcus also, like, even though they're partners in this particular endeavor, like it's still Marcus is like. What can you do for me? Yeah. Chosen, chosen. I mean, he's not part of anything resembling a traditional family structure like they are his brothers, but they know that he is singled out in a different way than they are. So this I mean, this is why I think part of his pitch is so interesting. Right. So he's pitching this idea of like. To the sharks. The fact that he is pivoted to. Are you a shark tank? No. But, I mean, this was like, hello, sharks, I'm looking for $300 million for 20% of my company. The fact that he's pivoting to mitigating damage from superheroes versus, like, being a superhero is, of course, super interesting. But he says, unnecessary loss of life, but even worse is the terror, right? People should never feel that scared. I thought I was on the right path back then, but I was actually moving the wrong direction away from my family. So I did reconnect with my brother Marcus, and he reminded me what I wanted to be. So, like, the fact that as part of his pitch, he's like, I've reconnected with my family, which we know is a straight-up lie. So, like, what, you know, what is he self-deluding about, or what is pure salesmanship here? And then also this idea of fear, which is, of course, something we've been tracking throughout the entire series. It's so core to the core. But, you know, Hal accuses him of being afraid, right? I mean, what's your read on that? To me, it's like… I think he kind of has him dead to rights there. I mean, Hal's gut is almost always right. It's very strong. Until it gets you shot in the head, I guess, on a bleacher. But, like, I think Hal's right about his fear. But, so, is this… John has just ensconced himself inside of this sort of, like, I was meant to be an architect. I'm going to make sure other people don't feel as afraid as I felt, as I saw everyone feel. Is it the guilt that he's carrying from what happened in Rushville? Like, what do you feel is at the core of this? Is he hiding? Yeah. You know? I think some of it is probably. Like, seeing the fear of real human beings, just normal people in action as their town is being torn apart by a giant space laser, right? Like, that is a harrowing thing that's, like, you train your whole life to be a Green Lantern. You think it's going to be one thing, and you're in the rubble, and it's different. I think I'd get over it pretty quickly. I mean, I do. Look, you're built of sterner stuff than most. Yeah. But, also, I think the fear… Right inside, it's crystal. No heart. You couldn't quite replicate it all the way. But, 99% human, I would say. We do our best. I think the fear with Hal… That Hal kind of… Senses, too, is not just, oh, you're afraid now because you've been in the shit. But, like, the fear to me is he sees the fear… He feels, for the first time, that fear of, like, what having this ring will do to me. Right? He sees the effect that it's had on Hal. How closely he's, like, gripping it with his, like, last ounce of energy in the motel. And it's like, this guy has abandoned everything he ever stood for for the sake of this ring. If I take it and put it on my finger, what does that do to me over time? What does that do to these relationships that are important to me now? How does it warp my entire life? I think that's so interesting. And I think that's, you know, exactly, yes, why we get that scene with him and Leon at the end of the previous episode. Where he's just sort of like, I don't want it. Bye. Fuck you. But, like, so to watch him now make that choice. Yeah. To watch him inside of this episode, dig a body up out of the grave in pursuit of the ring. To even hear from Carol. Shout out Carol Ferris. Yes. Who appears in this episode. But, like, to hear from her, like, the only relationship Hal ever had. Was with the thing on his finger. Like, you know, the Bilbo vibes are off the chart here with Hal Jordan. So, it's interesting to watch John. If we agree that the ring has this sort of, like, corrosive quality to it. It's interesting to watch John, a character that we like and care about, go towards that. Yeah. You know? Well, I think he's seen that the corrosive qualities of the ring are not just when you wear it. Like, that is part of it. And in that moment, that's the acute fear. But then, when he refuses it, I think what's implied throughout this. This episode's all the ways that that corrosive influence is still there. Just, like, your proximity to it. Right? And I think, to me, that's first and foremost in his relationship to his parents. Where, from the moment he rejects that ring, there's going to be, like, incredible fallout. Because the ring is supposed to give the whole family closure. Right? Like, this is the thing his dad was refused and kind of, like, ruined his life. Yeah. It was the thing that his mom became so obsessed with. It's what it was all for. Right. It was going to justify the apple explosions. And the abusive parenting. And the endangerment of, like, we're just going to drop you off wherever the hell. And you've got to get home. Like, this was supposed to make it all right. And him refusing it. Like, there's not really a matter of coming back from that as far as that relationship goes. And that's him not having the ring. Yeah. Let's talk about that a little bit more. So, like, the arc language, which we already mentioned. So, I just want to, again, mention this idea of, like, Noah and the arc gets, like, sort of an overt shout out here. But, yeah. This relationship. It's really a relationship that he has with Bernadette, his mom. What she says, I guess, which in your mind means she's setting pinups to lock up for Hal. How do you reconcile what she says here to what Bernadette says here? We speak sometimes. Hal and I were friends. Poor man has no family. He needed a friendly voice when he was locked up and perhaps some racy photos, who's to say. And we kept talking once he was out. He's different now. Grown. He's back in Rushville. Eats at the cafe every night. Late. And he's sorry. And he wants click. How do you reconcile the disconnect between what Bernadette says here and what Hal says later? In terms of which part of what Hal says? When John shows up and he's like, I'm here for my apology. And Hal's like, what are you talking about? Oh, there clearly was never any apology. This is like Bernadette's last ditch attempt. He's sorry and he wants. So, Bernadette is like. I sense that there's feeling here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, like, these are two. These are clearly two men who do have a lot to say to each other and would never be in the same place to do it of their own volition. Like, she knows her son well enough to know if I bait this hook, she is going to jump at it. She's still manipulating. A hundred percent. Is your assessment here. I think absolutely so. And, like, Hal is not wrong again when he asserts that, like, the reason she's talking to me in the first place is because she wants to talk to you and can't. Yeah. We got a couple of emails from listeners saying they were really happy to sort of see. Not happy to see John isolated from his family in this way, but happy to see that the show. That the message of the show wasn't John's parents were right to do what they did and the ends justify the means and all this sort of stuff like that. It's just sort of like, hey, this was fucked up and abusive. And here's the fallout of, like, abuse. Like, child abuse is sort of like you lose access. Yeah. To that child as an adult. And I don't know if there is, like, some reconciliation coming for Bernadette and John and his dad. But. But the idea. The idea that it's not just sunshine and rainbows, because when Bernadette was like, go to art school, it's fine. Find your happiness. I was watching. I was like, this feels like bullshit to me. And I feel like it is like if if if their relationship fell apart and Hal's estimation, it's not. You're a murderer. Killed someone. But because he said no to the ring, like that means that Bernadette and we saw that also when Bernadette and John Senior were on the phone saying like, hey, you have to call the guardians. Like, you're. You're ignoring us. Like, what are you doing? And in in the 10 years ago timeline, like they were actively his handlers inside of that timeline. So, like, they never moved past this quite toxic decision that they made. And so maybe Bernadette will have a reckoning with that or maybe she won't. But I think it's I'm really glad that the show I feel like some people's interpretation was like. Not that this was like a great parenting move, but it was sort of an understandable or something like that. I'm just sort of like. Oh, this is awful. It's sort of my. I mean, it's clearly awful. This is bad parenting. I don't think that's revolutionary to say. But like, I don't I feel like that was pretty well conveyed in the show. And like, frankly, the idea of even if you get the ring, but at what cost? Yeah, like that's an effective setup for this kind of hero and this kind of journey. And like, again, both in terms of which oaths is it going to follow? But also, like, he's a very different lantern than Hal Jordan in so many ways, just different people. But like, he was not chosen. He was. He was not groomed to be this. And so it's like if you grow a lantern in a lab. Yes, maybe he is raised without a certain kind of fear. But like, what are the tradeoffs of that versus a guy who just kind of has an alien in a ring land in his lap? And it kind of works and kind of doesn't. I like the word you use groomed. I think that like what I think is so fascinating about the Lantern Corps in general, though, is like, who are any of these guys? It's like gym teachers, apparently. Well, like, with love and respect to the gym teachers out there, I'm not knocking them. But Guy Gardner sucks, you know, like. Well, hashtag not all gym teachers, but definitely Guy Gardner, you know. He's not the head of the gym teachers union. He's not the best and brightest. The ring choosing Guy Gardner is, again, I go back to my question about like the thought process of the ring. Yes. The decision making process of the ring. And then to your point, the guardians or perhaps just the one guardian if Liana has gone rogue from the larger guardian body. But like the guardians sort of grooming John into this position, like, I think they all suit the ring in one way or another. Like, it is important that Guy Gardner is not incompetent. Yeah. Like, he's good at his job in some way. And Hal is definitely good at his job in some way. And John is definitely very well suited to this job. But the frailties, maybe that's just the frailty of having like a human guardian at the end of the day. I mean, there's a reason it was not standard protocol, you know. This is why we love drama, though. It's very true. The frailties of the human being. Characters will come around here. Absolutely. All right. I'm calling this section Tell No One because this is like the keep. Okay. Hal and John meet in the diner. Yep. In honor of Mallory, I do have to note the new jacket and the shirling collar. Of course. On Hal. It's very, very important that we talk about it. Looks great. Love it. Thank you so much. But what did you make of this? I took the fall. You fell sort of conversation that they have here. I think this is an important conversation to have, too, about like how went to prison. Yeah. And at first I thought when they're talking about this, I'm like, oh, clearly he went to space. space prison, right? Like, he went to. Space Caban? Spaz Caban? Spaz Caban. Wherever Sinestro was being held, the lanterns brought him in. He went to space prison. No, he was in white collar pickleball federal prison somehow. What crime do we think he committed? You would thrive in pickleball prison, don't you think? I mean, I don't know. As a tennis player, I have very particular feelings about that. But you've stumbled into a whole feud that I don't think we want to get into. The runtime will swell on this pod if we get to tennis versus pickleball. So another four hours on pickleball versus tennis. Let's just put it on the books. Okay. But like what federal crime do we think Hal Jordan committed exactly? Well, whatever the cover up was, you know, like in this sort of like Buffy Sunnydale way, you know, if they're like snakes, sewer, PCP, like whatever the explanation was for space lasers, because like, I don't think that I know that the full story of Rushville is not out there. I believe there was like some kind of cover up. So, you know, he took the fall for, I mean, he's no longer. He's no longer the Lantern. Yes. All of America knows that he was famous and he's no longer the Lantern. He's disgraced Lantern. Nobody came to his funeral. Oh, not the cast of Harry Potter, not the Pope, not Barack Obama. Like nobody came. Right. Not even an alien dignitary. Not even one of the many tentacled creatures who really has had coitus with. Oh, tough to taste the pleasures of the galaxy and then to have no one show up at your funeral. Did it mean nothing to you? Wow. Empty. Brutal. But I don't know what the full story that that has gone out there. And I don't know. I don't know. And I don't know enough about federal prison and the laws that could be broken. But I think you could go with like. Nope. I've got no. I've got no suggestions. How much do you know? I'm honestly curious. You know, I think the cover up is the most compelling case. And it makes sense in terms of him taking the fall for the circumstances. But also for like we have to say John's involvement in this, too. Like, I wouldn't say John is blameless in the fact that Rushville got wiped off the map. Effectively, that was my question. Hal takes the blame for Rushville. Does the blame belong to him entirely? And I don't think it does. And so I do think that like. He's saying to to John, we're square. Yes. Obviously, they're not. He left John to die in a car, you know, that he wasn't like. I don't think that was the plan. No, it wasn't the plan. He wasn't sure it would catch fire, but he didn't like. The car caught fire. Zoe left him to burn so that she could save him. You know, she could fix him. And she did. I mean, honestly, we should like I think we should probably talk about that part of the Manhunter thing, too. Not to divert us too much, but like. You want to talk about Noah again? You're in love with Noah. I'm just I'm fixated. I just keep gravitating towards him. But if you think about who the subjects or victims are, like the people that the Manhunter targets, they're all like very desperate. Right. Like people who are on the edge, who like need something very, very bad. Perfect example. Needs a haircut. You know. And so it's like. No, the opposite of a haircut. What if. To let them grow out. I mean, you could shave it all down. You can start. You can start from scratch. There are options. But like, what if in the end, Hal was one of those people? Like, what if he found himself in a position where he was potentially being manipulated at the end of all this, too? By Noah. By Noah or by like in the weird Noah Carey orbit in some way where he was pulled into it? Like, he was someone who needed something very clearly, which is not just to find out who the other Manhunters were. No, it's to share a pizza and watch the Scurs. To watch the Scurs, to go back to this place where everyone hates his guts. And make amends. And make. Some amends slash torture himself. And it's like, maybe that kind of desperation reeked enough that a Manhunter could pick it up from miles away. Do you think he said, am I a righteous man? If there's any justice in the universe, he did. But sorry, we got completely sidetracked. Where even were we? And I don't. I don't think it does. I think. No. I think John is responsible, obviously, like Anton and his folks are responsible. Clearly. Obviously, Zoe is quite responsible. I think Hal deserves some credit for any kind of cover that he gave to John. Agreed. That John is unwilling to give to him. But I don't think that makes them square. He's got a few more lawns to mow and groceries to carry before and like babies to kiss and all that sort of stuff before there's any kind of squaring. And he doesn't get to. I mean, that's what's great about this is that there isn't resolution between the two of them before he dies. Yes. That's actually like Mallory and I have been talking about that all season of like. Do we think they were in a good place when Hal died? No. How delicious. And even more delicious that it's day of. Right. It's not just they haven't spoken in 10 years. It's we get this conversation. It does not go super well. Someone gets punched in the face and then that's it. Let's talk about that commute. Yeah. John goes from midcity to Rushville, back to midcity, back to Rushville. It's tough. Without changing his clothing. So it's like same day, next day sort of thing. I assume it's like a. Moisture wicking turtleneck. So it's like, I mean, it smells fresh. Okay. He's doing all right. Is he racking up the flight miles? Is he. Do we know? Do we know what state midcity is in? I think generally Chicago ish is sort of what they. I mean. Have said. So we're Midwest. I mean, midcity makes sense. Yeah. But even still directs in and out of small town Nebraska. We got emails from Nebraskans saying like, there's no way that John like because earlier. Right. The first time they flew in and out, they were like, no way is John. Going to get a direct flight to nearby Rushville, Nebraska. So not a chance. Again, the fact that he went there, went back and then went back again is a commitment. It is commitment, you know, and proof of these tragic circumstances that we don't get a second of him being like, Jesus Christ, I got to do this again. Like, I got it. You just got off a flight. So maybe this is maybe that's a trauma. That might be travel weariness talking. John and Hal do bond a bit over talking shit on Guy Gardner. As one does. You know, is great. Do you think it's cool or cheesy when they refer to Gotham this way when they say ripped off that bat guy over in Gotham to put a beacon right in the middle of the fucking town here so people can summon him? Like, I think the cheesy part is not the reference, but the bad guy. It's like the the elliptical like, hey, we're being cute. Yeah. Everyone would just call him Batman. Yeah. He's very famous. He's Batman. Do you think it's just because they like haven't committed to their Batman and who he is and stuff like that? There's no doubt. Plus, I'm sure. Maybe they don't call him Batman in whatever it is that gun is cooking up. You know, plus, I'm sure there's some like weird accounting till somewhere where when you say the word Batman in a movie, it's like some letter has to be sent. Some check has to be sent and signed. Like, there's got to be some weird thing around IP that's like that hardened to the to the cane finger estate. OK, do you think Hal goaded John into hitting him? Would there be a reason for him to do that? I don't think he goaded him. He tells him he's scared. Take out the ring. Scared, afraid. Absolutely fucking terrified. And then he gets. Punched in the face. There's just a lot of goading from various people like Sinestro was goading Hal. Of course. Hal goaded. I just like saying goading. He provoked a group of people in the bar earlier in the season to like beat the shit out of him so he can land up in jail. So I didn't know if you felt like he was sort of doing some provoking here or not. I mean, he's always clearly a needler. Like, he just likes to antagonize people in addition to the strategic goading. To me, this read more as like Superman, too. I can't remember if it was the Donner cut or not, but the part where Superman gives up his powers and then goes to a diner and like tries to intervene and just gets his ass like fucking kicked. Oh, yeah. He's used to to swatting around with the ring on. He's used to used to having it one way, which is like if you if you punch me, it's because I let you punch me. Yeah. Like you wouldn't dare otherwise. And this is like, even though it's been 10 years, he can't heal it up the way that he used to be. Absolutely not. He's a different man. But at the same time, like he's still talking. But this is the most important thing that I think or the most interesting thing when he says, don't tell anyone you were here, please. Nobody. There's like a desperation in his voice when he says that. And to me, my interpretation of that is to protect John. He says that to protect. Yes, I agree. Right. Don't tell anyone you were here. And Kerry calls him. You know, but like if let's say let's let's play the threat out. Right. Like, let's say he has discovered that Noah is a mini man hunter. OK. And he knows that he's in danger or something like that. Like, he's just mere hours away from getting shot in the head or whatever. Bernadette said he seemed scared. He seemed like afraid of something. But he doesn't want that coming back on John anyway. He doesn't want anyone thinking that John knows anything. Yeah. And so he's just saying, don't tell anyone you were here, please. Nobody. So that whoever's hunting me will not start hunting you. You know, I think that has to be my interpretation. The only alternative I could see was like, I don't want you getting looped. In or blamed in whatever is about to happen. Like, he feels close enough to something protective. Yes, I agree. Like the tone, the desperation that you're talking about. I mean, it does speak to what we hear later in this episode, which is like for everything between these guys. Like, he does seem to kind of like part of John. He does like it. Yes, he because he doesn't say, don't tell anyone I was here. Right. Please. He says, don't tell anyone you were here. All right. We do the whatever the commute is from Mid-City back to Rush. Well, and we're back where we started in Episode one with Carrie and John at the scene of the crime. Only we have a lot more Intel. Now, what do you now make of John checking the finger for the ring, knowing that we know that John knows that how doesn't have a ring? Yes, his ring has been decommissioned. So what does checking the finger there do? I honestly wasn't sure. Do you think it's just like a fake out for Episode one? Maybe maybe it's like the just in case. Like, let me just see. Did he get it back somehow? And that's something happened. How he got here. Absolutely. Okay, because, yeah, the knuckles are. referenced Elsewhere, Hal didn't punch anybody, so they can't quite loop everything back to John yet. But this seemed like 100% just a ring check. Yeah, absolutely. Old St. Because when everyone's counting on you to do your job, what else would he wear to work? Tap the banner to grab a gift for every hardworking person on your holiday shopping list, or head to Carhartt.com. $45 for three months. $90 for six months. Or $180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. See terms. Plans starting around $1 a day. Now get 70% off your new system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com slash Spotify. What else do you want to say about this sort of crime scene investigation moment? I mean, I love the revisit, for one, with all the context. I just think it's always so fun reading into every micro expression. And I think just the, especially for John, the mystique in this scene not just being what happened here, but like how culpable am I going to be in this? Like how accurately can we date this broken nose like to the minute of what happened and getting to read that performance within this scene? Just it really sung on the second viewing. How much like how much of John's motivation here do you think is his genuine feelings for Hal and genuinely like wanting to know what was happening or what his brother said earlier, which is like, you know, you never left Rushville. Essentially, you have to get some closure on what happened there. Yeah. And then how much is it? I have to. I have to cover my own ass because I could be blamed for this. I think it's I think that's a significant part of it. And they serve the same end goal. Right. It's like if you can find who actually did it, then it's not you. Yeah. And so I think to whatever extent he can contribute to the solving of this with no help from Guy, as he has made abundantly clear, then all the better for it. And I like the idea that like we could revisit this scene one more time if it turns out that Carrie is the one who did it and just sort of like revel in all of the hidden agendas of. All the characters inside of these scenes. Like Carrie's motivated to pin it on someone else or create some plausible deniability or something like that. Or just move the light away from her. Yeah. And then he's motivated by the fact that he was there and could be blamed because perhaps some shrapnel of his DNA is on Hal's face. It was a solid punch, you know? So you think I imagine that we do see a version of what actually happened. It's not just hearsay. It's not just we find out. But like, do you think we're going to see it? I think we're going to see the snowy bleachers. Can't wait. Yeah. It's okay, Buttercup. I hope I'm mad. If that line is uttered on this show, I'm just going to be so delighted by that. I really hope it turns out. If he says it's okay, Buttercup, I will feel the same way we felt when there was a furry on the pit. Yes. That's how I will feel about that. Just a sign of a life well lived. All this podcasting, all this abusive podcasting will have been worth it. It mattered. I hope it mattered. Okay. Uh, I'm calling this Chekhov's bachelor pad because we walk into the house, right? We've got the shotgun rigged up at the door and John keeps re-rigging it up at the door. So there's like no way that shotgun doesn't go off at some point. We're going to home alone at some point. Okay. Because Earl is there. And like, obviously Earl is going to be eating someone before the season is over. He has to eat someone. Do you think he's going to eat Noah and then just spit out the crystal heart? Oh my God. That would be phenomenal. Just chops the whole thing down and spits out the heart. Here's the thing. Like Earl wouldn't even need to be involved in like an overt attack or people breaking in in any way. I don't know who's, I mean, look, this has to be Hal's decision. He is way too close to that bed. Like if you're just a guest sleeping or maybe that's Hal's bed. I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know who all is like live, laugh, loving in here, but clearly anyone in that bed is in the plant zone in a way that I would never want to be. We need to move Earl away from the bed. I know he needs the light, but come on. I mean, and we know, so like, again, in honor of Mallory, we must address the line. I mean, it's not exactly the risk, but I made him change the sheets. So the bar is in hell. They're tangling in the sheets. Carrie and Hal are taking the sheets. It's like having your pet watch you when you're tangling in the sheets with your loved one. Like you don't want your sentient plant right there. Not just watch you, but like on a perch. Like he's above looking down. I just don't think that's a good situation for anybody, especially when your plant can literally eat you alive. Can I pitch you and I, uh, uh, sort of a branding for date nights with Hal and Carrie Huskers and chill. I mean, I, I'm pretty sure that's already a thing. Scores and chill does not have the same ring to it. You need the right, you need the Netflix and chill Huskers and chill. Look, football games are very long. There's a lot of downtime, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of opportunity there for everybody. I don't think there's like great central heating inside of that bachelor pad. So, you know, you got to warm up somehow. You call it a bachelor pad, but it's like a, it's a spinster pad. It seems like, Oh, because it's like a, it's a spinster pad. Because there's like homilies on the wall. I'm just saying he didn't decorate the place. Somebody else owns it. He has more. Oh, you think he's Airbnb-ing that from like an old lady? I mean, they said he was renting it out. Okay. So you don't think any of that decor is his? Oh, absolutely not. Okay. He doesn't own decor. That's part of the thing. But that's what I thought. I thought it was part of him like changing for Carrie. And then he like went to HomeGoods. Oh my God. I didn't even consider that. Yeah. And he's like feathering his nest for her. But her house rules. Her house is great. She's a really nice house. She knows what she's doing. She's like, if I were her, I mean, I understand the reason she goes over there and splits a pizza is so that Noah cannot find out that she's like, otherwise all day nights should be at Carrie's house, which is a very nice house. This is one of those couples where it becomes abundantly clear that you need to go there and not here. Yeah, exactly. No, I like the idea that he like bought some stuff for her. Some throw pillows. But only from the first HomeGoods he went to. It's like, I'm going to go to one place and whatever they have is now my style sensibility. And perhaps some yard sales, you know? But you think that's a good idea? I think that's like a little old lady's house that he like. It feels pretty dusty in there. Okay, it does. I won't lie to you. All right. So Earl definitely eating someone. Got to. I think we are home alone. I think showdown at the Bachelor, Pat or Spinster joint, if you prefer. And the shotgun's going off and Earl is definitely eating someone. Is there a third in that? Is there a tic-tac-toe for the traps? I can't remember any other things set up really. If like one of the sort of. Inspirational poem plaques that was on the wall, the HomeGoods poem plaque falls off the wall. What if there's like a nine mil planted behind one of those? Or it's like it conceals the door to the gun safe, you know? That's your Cape Fear logic thinking. It honestly is. When they mentioned that the gun is still at large, I did have some Cape Fear energy. But yeah, the gun's missing. It's the nine mil. Where could it be? But yeah, no, I think at least those two things happen. But you're right. We do enjoy a rule of three. So maybe a lampshade will be involved. Maybe so. Here's what our listener Ken said. This may sound strange, but I'm thinking about the presence of meat in lanterns. We have Earl who has to be fed meat from the fridge. We have John who for some reason is no longer vegan. And we have the slaughterhouse. All this has me wondering if meat has something to do with the plot point or if it's meant to be something thematically. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but would love to hear your thoughts. I mean, this is what you're positing. Meat's back on the menu. Yeah. John is now a full-blood, red-blooded American. So he could take up the lantern. He could take up the lantern mantle. But like any other thoughts on the presence of meat in the show? I mean, clearly before he was an imposter, you know, not to say anything about the vegan community. But I think if you're channeled into the like. We're a pro-vegan podcast. Incredibly. Okay. But I think the guy he was puffing himself up and raised to be. The guy who doesn't drink. Who doesn't. It was like so clean cut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So manufactured. So like optimized. Not human. Right. It's like if you were going to design the human diet from scratch, it would be vegan. Right. Like that would make a ton of sense. Yeah. And now he's like letting his hair down a little bit. I mean, to the extent that he has it to let down. That's what the goatee is. Oh, absolutely. Growing that thing out. Love that. Can we go back to this food storage question that I don't think I got as much of a rise out of Mallory as I would out of you about this. When we first see the meat storage situation for Earl in Hal's house and it's just so much raw meat just in the fridge. Did you have any questions about that? Oh, the sustainability. Did that mean? It's so much raw meat thawed at once. I will say I think different species have different tolerances for like a sell by date suggestion. Right. You think he's serving Earl rotten meat by a human standards, perhaps. OK, I'm just not going to presume what a carnivorous plant can and can't eat. I just live a life and maybe I was raised by like a fearful family or something like that. But like the meat is mostly in the freezer until like just before you need it. You know, wait, wait, you buy the meat. - Yeah. - And it goes straight into freezer unless you're gonna cook it like that night or the next day yes joe you can't be living that way yes no that's safe it's safe rob it i've looked free if you don't have plans to cook the meat this week perhaps yeah how many days you put the raw meat in the fridge it depends on the meat it depends on the timing it depends on what it says when you buy it but all of those dates that are on the packaging are like a weird combination of food science plus politics plus economics i do know that okay thank you so much just laying it out i'm just asking you how long if you buy some chicken thighs and you're like oh i thought i was gonna make them tonight but i'm not gonna make them yeah how many days are they sitting in the fridge several is fine if it's not processed meat if it's ground meat i think it's different rules apply okay but a whole chicken thigh i'm fine with that like several days yeah okay it's fine it's fresh it's completely edible that's not how i live my life but all of your meat is inferior because it's been frozen no because it's well seasoned and well-cooked it's not how i live my life it's not how i live my life it's not how well-cooked yeah but the texture i'm not worried about the season well maybe i don't know i don't know what to think anymore i'm concerned um i'm concerned about how long you're letting meat just hang out in your fridge absolutely not several days is 100 fine it's tough uh what do you make of the use of maggie inside of this episode so we meet maggie well we met her last week she was a little girl with a tweety bird watch yes um and then we see her when john first goes to see hal she's covering for john here so that she can extort him later very ozarky honestly the spotlight with love and respect uh to chris monday but uh what do you what do you make of her use here i'm not quite sure okay i will say of all the characters in their utilization this episode that confounded me a little bit i would say hers and billy's are the two that i'm like i don't quite see where you're going for here other than clearly in their conversation they're setting up the like the racial undertones or in this case overtones of that exchange and it's not an accident it's not an accident it's not an accident it's not an accident that he's like reparations is an overtone i mean the fact that she's like we're not racist but i would like some reparations yeah wild shit special but like what is this character supposed to represent what is she supposed to be like the fact that john doesn't remember her yeah uh is not a great look for our guy she was nine yeah yes if you saw a nine-year-old and then didn't see them and then saw them at 19 do you think you would connect to who that person is on the one hand sure on the other hand it sounds like there's about 10 people still left and i mean like that's fair and on the other hand she looks exactly like the woman that they cast for her mother yeah like i don't know what they if that's like the same i didn't look if it's like the same actress or they got her sister or something like that but like the casting is insane between uh and i feel like of all the people that he would remember perhaps it would be the weeping child that he like hated a watch too maybe i mean look they have a moment clearly and in the economy of the characters of this kind of thing clearly it has to be the same girl yeah but he's shell-shocked from just having assassinated his like alien lover and also taking the ring that he's been waiting his whole life to get off of hal jordan's finger yeah and is stumbling through the wreckage of a city he is partially responsible for destroying i just don't know that his like recall is going to be a hundred percent in this situation you're just letting him off the hook a little bit maybe so um okay so you think she's justified in asking for reparations is what you're saying i didn't say that okay just want to make it very clear for the record i'm like in terms of what she could represent the fact that she's like a face of this a non-manhunter manhunter adjacent face just like an average person unless she's also a manhunter but like um just a the face of a damaged rushville right the you know the damage that was done i think they needed that in some respect or another but i also think like even just some of the details that we learned like the fact that no one rebuilt the motel yeah right like that stuff i found to be really effective and i agree that everyone who is still here is living in a ruin and that hal is among the people who moves back to live in that ruin i found to be really evocative even if we didn't have and that goes back to the sort of like uh noah's manhunter case because i'm just sort of like why wouldn't everyone just leave why would you stay yes and i feel like the only reason to stay is to just circle the wagons around this like one being that they've all been tasked to raise and protect you know it's a great point and now that you mention it the idea that noah is like a highly touted college prospect impossible there's no offensive line in this city like the other kids he's supposedly playing with much less against yeah what is the caliber of competition here uh mallory has been saying this from the beginning it doesn't make any sense and it's i mean like that line is in the first episode yeah it's just sort of like what noah's prospects are and so it's just like from the beginning there's a like there's something not quite right someone's cooking the books yes no one is watching these games the tape is not out there something is rotten in the heart of rushville and it's not the meat rotting in the fridge um uh all right autopsy table for one it's the famous bitsy who knows no uh who zoe referenced in episode five right she said call bitsy tell her we need a table for one so this is what we find out is that bitsy's the me um on the maggie front and the bitsy front we get two sort of clock uh clocks they put on things right like maggie threatens john and puts a clock on it and bitsy's like i can hide the fact that someone died here till monday yes so there's a clock on that as well i would say is partially the reason why no one is showing up to the funeral too like some some of it might be outreach harry told carol and that's it it's just and like bitsy's like wikipedia-ing to like figure out next of kin it's like how how jordan regardless of how disgraced he may be i imagine by the fact that he was a superhero would be an incredibly public figure yeah who some people would show up for a funeral it wouldn't just be them alone the look you lose that's the thing yeah that's a great point that like if they're hiding the fact that he is dead and then like literally it's just carol who shows up interesting um uh yeah because i mean the whole if we go back to the 2016 timeline and they were talking about like what happens if a lantern dies here this is the whole why carrie calls john here kind of question that i have which is just sort of like if a lantern dies here even a disgraced former lantern but if a lantern dies here then like the troops will descend but like guy gardner knows guy knows that would he not have told the guardians like who who all knows that that hal is dead you know especially when guy is like such a boy scout i mean it at least in a brown nosing kind of what who are we hiding this information from the fbi like she mentioned the fbi like who are we hiding it from if like guy knows and carol knows well i think we're i think in this case they're hiding it at least so the purported reason is we don't want to get in the way of the hat ceremony right like we don't want to blow up noah's big moment once again i think everyone's priorities are really warped well look if kyle chandler's on a show where people are feeling away about high school football like i think we're in the zone but is that the actual reason which to be like i would actually understand that whether you're a parent or a surrogate parent like i can understand that logic i'm just not sure that's exactly what's happening here but like then you put him in the in the freezer and you don't have the funeral until after the hat ceremony right you do the hat ceremony and then you say hey guys how jordan died yeah i think they just don't want people coming to town you have a very liberal relationship with the freezer you're just putting way too many things in there for way too long dead bodies that guy's got to go on the ground like this is his time dead bodies can go in the freezer you're just i don't know your preservation of various meats is concerning to me speaking of preservation storage let's talk about the fortress of storage again on the sort of like winking reference how did you feel about fortress of storage this is cute in a good way i liked it bird on the keychain what do you think that means i don't know a couple options okay one it's like how kind of left this for john makes sense okay two the birds are actually connected to the guardians in some way and this is like a double fake oh from bernadette yeah i don't know why do birds keep showing up randomly motif okay just just for a little salute just lampshading the lampshades just doing a thing okay um i like the idea that it's for john yeah okay that that i mean look it's one of the things they have legitimately bonded over in terms of like how are you able to do this like a moment they had that only maybe only they and anton's exploded corpse assuming that is actually what happened would remember so what's in the box just the lantern because we've got the suit and the ring now yeah the ring has five percent left that's not gonna last us very long no um so a lantern to juice up the ring the lantern itself makes sense we've seen it in there the box is this is a bigger box than the box he had back in his room his home so what else could be in there well but the the one even the one at his home was big on the inside yeah it's all tardisy but why is this one bigger on the outside honestly i hadn't even considered that it was like if you have an infinite void inside what's the difference at that point that's a great question i guess you need the clearance in the box to take out whatever is in there right like if you have if you have a car in the small box you're not getting it out of the front of the safe so what's the difference yeah well it's not car size but do you want to know my favorite theory though that i've seen floated around please that for some reason abinsur's spaceship would be in there that's not coming it's not clearing i know so i don't i don't know i don't know what the bigger box is for and what's in there besides the lantern yeah i mean the lantern clearly has to be in there we haven't seen it we don't know where it is the ring is at five percent because none of these lanterns charge their shit under any like they need to charge do you think there's a spell inside of the box that preserves raw meat and he can just keep endless storage of raw meat in there if there was he would have okay i'd like to know what's in there because i don't know what's in there - I will say this. I personally, I don't know how you felt about this, Joe. I was very reassured. that the space vault safe could not be opened with a voice recording because we've just recorded too many pods. Like, we would be so cooked. All of our deepest, darkest secrets would be out there. Rob, we're already cooked. I mean, we are. But can you imagine if it could also open our safe, you know? Remember how upset you were to learn that my fingerprints unlocked something? I just have a lot of concerns about the way you live your life. But, like, I won't do facial recognition anything. Face unlock, I think, is, like, scary and weird. What do you think you're accomplishing with doing one but not the other? Do you do neither? As much as I possibly can. Okay. Yeah. All right. Meanwhile, you're just like, yeah, 23andMe, take my DNA. It's a work thing. All right. Well, let's not talk about it anymore. I just know who's given DNA samples to the Manhunters, and it's you. You know, you're like, yeah, sure, take it. I don't care what you do with it. Do you make a little mini Manhunter out of my genetic code? Cool. How much tissue do you need? To make a Manhunter? Clearly not much. Could you not just gather, like, a couple strands of hair? Like, is it sort of, like, Gladys and Weapon's level of, like, organic matter that you need to wrap around a twig? You need, like, three good wraps around that twig. Okay. All right. Because she didn't clarify, Zoe didn't clarify what she took exactly. She was like, I took a sample. Well, there was, like, a scar. Oh, he had a mark. Okay. In that case, so we have a sense of scale, at least. It's like a punch of flesh, essentially. Maybe it has to be flesh. Yeah. Maybe hair is not enough. Maybe. What about a tooth? We have questions. Toenail clippings, are they eligible? If you're a Manhunter, get at us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. I was watching a witch-based story, which will shock and surprise you, and someone mentioned, like, losing a tooth, and I'm like, you lose a tooth, the witch has that tooth, man. Got it. The witch has that tooth. You didn't lose it. You know where it is. Yeah. The witch has it. Anything else you want to say about the Buttercup voice note that we haven't already mentioned? It was very sweet. It was so sweet. I really did enjoy it quite a bit. Kyle Chandler's charisma, just through voice note alone, is insane. Like, insane. That's incredibly potent. It's really dope. See, again, like, Bernadette was powerless, you know? She's just another one of us. Noah gets mentioned again, right? If you want to come over and watch The Scars, I know Noah has practice. Again, like, I mean, like, yes, Carrie's life should be oriented in many ways around her child that she's rearing. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not an alien. I understand that parents care about their children, but I think the show is just very carefully, like, Noah, Noah, Noah, comes up again with Billy. He's here. He's here. He's here. He's here with the suit. Yeah. It comes up again with Billy when, when John is trying to talk Billy down from the fight and he's like, think about your son. And he's like, you keep my son. He said things about Noah. And he's like, you get my son's name out of your mouth. It's like a trigger almost for, for these people. So, I don't know. Do you think there's any way in which Billy did the shooting? Would Billy shoot Hal and would Hal, under what circumstances would Hal accept that? That's where I, because Hal wouldn't be like, it's okay, buttercup to Billy. I mean, that would be a turn of events. What if the voice memo was meant for, like, there's many things that could happen. I think we're really, we're really unfurling this. Well, I will say the thing about the voice memo that it accomplishes among just like sending us thrills and chills to hear Kyle Chandler contemplate calling a woman buttercup. Yeah. Is it corroborates Carrie's story, right? Like that, like, this is a real thing. This is a real thing. They did have a relationship. It's not just a story she's making. And also like. Uh, you know, he says she blows him off, goes to him. He's waiting by the phone. She really makes him work for it. So that's you. So this whole story of like, he courted me. It took a while, blah, blah, blah. Like this is, this is corroboration of that, which is nice to hear because like, I don't trust any of these motherfuckers and they tell me, I don't believe it. So, you know, um, at what point do you think John devises the whole plan to get the hologram? Because like when he, they can't get into the bigger TARDIS box with the voice note alone. Yeah. After that is when he's like, we should have a funeral. Yes. So is it in that moment or is it mere moments later when he's in the store getting the beer and he sees the Guy Gardner cut out? Cause I feel like seeing the Guy Gardner beverage display is what inspires him to turn on the lantern signal. Was it a supplement or an energy drink? I thought it was a drink. Either way. It's not, the product's not moving. No, heavily discounted. Well, bad optics. That's what he said. The brand has been damaged by what happened in Rushville. This is what happens when you're the branding lantern. Like it's, it's just not where you want to be. It's not where you want to be. But like, do you think it was John's, like, is the funeral, is the idea for the funeral actually motivated by like, he's not a goldfish. I actually cared about him. Or is it this like longer, long con of like, if we have a funeral, then we can get the ring and then we can, you know, get the hologram and then we can open the box. I think the funeral is legitimately designed to get the ring. Yes. And he doesn't quite know how to do it at first. And then he sees. So it's like a two part revelation, right? Like clearly the bet. Like I need to drag this on and create more avenues to get the ring. How am I going to do that? Oh, wait. Guy Gardner seems like just the kind of Rube who might pull this off. And I think in a way that is so. I really want you to call Guy Gardner a Rube to his face. I think it would go well for all of us. Yeah. The plan as far as how, how he manipulates Guy is very Hal Jordan-y. Yes. You know, like. He provokes him. He absolutely provokes him. And he, and he understands him in the same way that. Like Bernadette pulled his strings that we've seen various characters manipulate others where it's like Guy Gardner's whole thing, as we understand it, I think both here and in the Superman movie is like, this is not a guy who feels, if you'll pardon it. Yeah. Particularly worthy of this whole thing. Like he's the third choice lantern, right? Like he was not chosen by the ring. He was not raised to be a lantern. He's like, well, I guess we're just going to go to this dude instead. Is it the guardians picked him or the ring picked him? I assume. I thought the ring picked him. Do we ever get confirmation of that? Is there a backstory in this canon? I don't know. But, but either way, we're going so far down the line that it's like, even as John sets up, like you have this because I let you have it. I mean, yes, but he's provoking him. He's goading him to your. But he's goading an insecurity that exists because it's true. Yeah. But also like you could be third string lantern and that you're still above so many humans on earth. I mean, that's true, but there's like a billion. There's so many lanterns, you know, in the galaxy. Yeah. There's like warthog alien lanterns, you know? It's like that guy got it over. Warthog lanterns. The best. Before we go to that Guy Garner scene and we, you know, we, we did the Billy fight in the street scene. Let's, let's just like linger longer on this meatloaf dinner. Yes. No one wants to be president. I'm sure this is fine. We return to the topic of fear. Like, can it be avoided? Can it be managed? Right. This is what he says when he's justifying the fact that he's in the panic room business. People want peace and they want safety. Okay. Bring safety to people. 99% of my clients will never need to go inside, but it's just knowing that it's there. That's the opposite of panic. Right? So like this idea, this constant push and pull that we've been talking about all season of like, what does it mean to be fearless? Is it actually being fearless or is it being afraid and doing the thing anyway? You know, all this sort of stuff like that. But I love the idea of like John Stewart, he's an architect. Let's put him in the panic room business. It's real juicy. I think it's really good. It's very good. Yeah. The part of it though, that. Look, where I guy Gardner, where I optics focused dude who is kind of a green lantern goes to middle America, accidentally laser nukes an entire city and then wants to sell you a panic room. Yeah. I don't think the optics are great. I don't see how this business got off the ground. Well, but John is not being blamed for the, that's why Hal took the fall. But even by association, like just being there, I would think like, how is that not the first question in every pitch meeting? It's like, so what happened in rush? And like, I get how you could spin that shark tank style into like, well, I was there devastation. I saw proved that I understand we need this. I just don't buy. I don't know that anyone would buy that. Oh, you're not buying. I'm certainly not buying. I'm skeptical. I will not be investing at this time. I'm going to leave it to Cuban and everybody else. All right. Um, one of the thing I want to say about this, um, this dinner sequence is like at the end of it, when, uh, when Carrie is sending Noah away and he's like, I'm not an idiot. I'm not a goddamn idiot. Okay. I know you were together. All of that sort of stuff. John starts explaining himself to Noah and Carrie's like, don't talk to him. Talk to me. But I kind of took that as like, I don't know if this is true, but like, again, Noah's like magnetism that like John is just like addressing his justifications to Noah rather than talking to Carrie about like what happened with Billy. It's just this like irresistible pull to like orient yourself around Noah. I think that's like possibly very fast. Well, it's, I mean, that's that occasion in particular is so notable. Like he's has no other. Reason to be addressing those concerns to Noah, who he has no relationship because he's not a real character on the show. Um, all right. We've been talking about guy. Anything else you want to say? Okay. Well, yeah, this is, this is big news. By the way, Sinestro escapes BTW Spassky band. Yeah. Uh, well, a lot of Potter references in this show. Does this feel like just, uh, Warner brothers IP that we're just like getting the pump and you know, prime the pumps for the Potter show or like, what are we doing? That feels especially shameless. The fact that it is joint IP. I actually, maybe this is us being a little too in the weeds on this stuff, but when we cover a show and they reference like an Apple show references something on Netflix or something like that, I have like a weird admiration for it. Cause I'm like, this isn't so craven. It's an attempt at, yeah, like grasping zeitgeist kind of centering us in a moment in time or a culture or whatever. But you're acknowledging that other networks or streamers exist. That we are not just a little bubble where this is the only thing that happens. So like, this does feel like kind of pumping up. Yeah. Mr. IP, so to speak, but it's like, it's, it's weird. It's like, I think this is too much. This is too much. The third Potter reference inside this season. The first one, I was admittedly charmed by. As the litmus test, as the German three of are you a human being, I think absolutely worked. And certainly, Guy Gardner is not out here canceling J.K. Rowling. This guy doesn't give a shit. He's like, he's like, what, Harry Potter's great, I don't give a shit. I don't know, he did get involved in D.C. Gaza in the Superman movie. So, you know, his politics might surprise you. That's true. You know, you're right. Thanks for speaking up. Sinestro's escaped. Yeah. A while ago. Who busted Sinestro out of the joint? Okay. Yeah. He says, Hal's off the hook because he was in prison. Yep. So, who did it? Could possibly be him. Who done it? Who else do we know that has access to Spazkaban? Yeah. No one? The Guardians. Yeah. But why would they break out Sinestro? Could, okay. So, should we put, I don't think there's any way in which Sinestro could have done it. But could we put Sinestro on the suspect list for killing Hal? I don't think he did it. Killing him with a nine, a nine millimeter feels crude. Right. He would taunt him to death. Don't you think? I would think. But like, is there a world in which Liana, Yeah. the lovely Laura Linney, breaks Sinestro out of prison to get him to kill Hal for her or something like that? I think the fact that she would break him out of prison seems like the only option we have narratively available to us because we don't know anyone else who has access to Spazkaban. Do we want to keep calling it Spazkaban? Not particularly. Plus, I would say Spacekaban seems more, I know, Spacekaban is way better than Spazkaban. But like, we want to say the goofier thing. Can Noah, in his manhunter capacity, Yeah. fly himself to space? I don't know the answer. Have we seen, actually, have we seen, this may be a dumb question, please forgive me, have we seen the manhunters fly? No. Not in the show. Not in Lanterns. Yeah. I mean, especially Zoe was like about to get on a chopper or something. I mean, I don't know what she did to get herself out of that truck before it exploded. It's true. If she just let herself burn up and then like popped herself in the sarcophagus or whatever. She at least could move very fast. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they're going to space as Spazkaban though. Okay. So, who done it? Yeah, it's Laura Linney. It's gotta be Laura Linney. But which version of Laura Linney? You know, is it this one? Is it Truman Show? Is it You Can Count On Me? Like, it could be any. It could be any Laura Linney. I'm open. What if, honestly, what if all of the Guardians are Laura Linneys? It's a C word. It's a C word, Laura Linney. Yeah, I don't know who it could be other than the Guardians of some kind. And I don't know why they would want Sinatra out. Unless he just like got it, you know, like sweet-talked himself out. And it wasn't like anyone busted him out, but like he just got himself out. He's been in there for a while and sweet-talking a lot. And he's, you know, you get some wiggle room you get some privileges. You have access. Clearly he has his ear to the ground in a way that your average prisoner doesn't. But I still think even for the role she's played in this season, Laura Linney is too big a get for what she's done so far. And it's like, I think it's some of my favorite casting on the show. But I also see her being here as like kind of a favorite of Chris Mundy who did Ozark with her. It's just sort of like, will you come and be like a cool alien person who's here for just a couple episodes? I kind of see it as the opposite of like that kind of casting spoiler where you're just like, surely Laura, Laura Linney will do more. We'll do something. Like we were talking about with like Hope Davis and Furious or something like that. I think this is more like, here's a cool actress who's doing a favor to someone who she's worked with before. Do you know? But it's not even the fact that she's a cool actress. It's like tapping into the opaqueness of Laura Linney is so easy and tempting that it's like, if you have her, why wouldn't you have her release Sinestro? Opaqueness is such a good description of what she can do. I guess it's opacity technically. I apologize to all the house of our listeners. I apologize. It is opacity. I have to entertain this, even though there's no way in which I believe this to be the case. A prevailing theory about who killed Hal, maybe prevailing is too strong. A theory has been that it's John's dad. And I think it's just because we've seen him fire a gun question mark. He does have a gun at care comfort cove. So this is a thing he, he breaks out, shot out his window with a handgun. Yeah. Is it a nine mil? Well, you know what I mean? Like, I think we just need to mention that John Senior has a gun. Yes. Has been behaving erratically for long enough that they've put him in some sort of care facility. Has some kind of grudge against how has had it, like, you know, for decades. Yeah. Is there, I don't think this would be interesting or narratively satisfying if it was, if it were John Senior, but I just thought I would mention it. Worth noting. I agree, it would be quite odd. Oh, on the Maggie extorting John front, our listener Ken wrote in to say, I don't know if it's plot related, but the amount that Maggie wants in reparations is $314,536. And 27 cents. Which is the hex code for a green color minus the 27 cents. Okay, that's fucking cute. So number 314536. And I looked it up and it is a very green, lanterny green is, is the hex code for green. That is incredibly cute. I don't know if that's something they intended, but I really like that. How could it not be? Okay. All right, let's talk about the Noah-John. Okay, 'cause like, if Noah's a manhunter and if he did it, or at least there's a confrontation coming, I don't see how he makes it out of the season alive, dimples and all. But this is what John says to him, and it's the second time we've seen John give young Noah some advice, right? The only bar you need to clear is the one you set for yourself. Nobody else's matters. And then Noah says, you believe that. And then he says, no, of course not. I'm just trying to give you an easier ride than I had. And then Noah says, but now you're happy though, right? And John says, absolutely, without a pregnant pause. Can't you tell how happy he is? Okay, the only bar you need to clear is the one you set for yourself. Like, is that telling Manhunter Jr. you don't need to live up to your grandmother's expectations of what you don't need to be president, even though your grandmother might've groomed you to be? Is there a way in which John, who was groomed for greatness, and Noah, who was groomed for greatness, like, game recognized game in some sense, can he talk him off the ledge in some way if he did not? If it was Carrie who killed Hal, and Noah is just like a Manhunter with a heart of gold and crystal, like, is there a way in which he can sort of be redeemed? Like, what do you think? - Can a Manhunter be redeemed? I mean, all we know about the Manhunters is that they manipulate and kill to survive and seduce people. - And they fuck real good. - Apparently. - Yeah. - I mean, like, again, ask Jon Stewart. Like, he was ready to go back in one more time onto the breach and just be like, you know, we gotta be sure. Like, we gotta confirm before we do anything too desperate here. So like, I don't know that Manhunter with a heart of gold is something the show is necessarily set up. Is this possible? Of course. Maybe this is the exception to the rule. Maybe they have finally perfected the formula. Maybe whatever is happening, like, has reached its apex in a more perfect form. - I'm just trying to understand why this sort of Jon-Noah connection, which they've now hit twice. - Yes. - Like, to what end? If Noah is the villain, you know, will it then be hard for Jon to kill him or something like that? And that's why Earl has to eat him or like, what, you know, where are we going with this? - Well, I think it's unwitting hero and villain, right? It's like, Jon was born into this stuff, right? Like, it was chosen for him that he was supposed to be a lantern. And if the same is true for Noah, where he was like literally manufactured out of somebody's DNA, then it's like, he had no part to play. All the talk that you raised earlier about like, being compelled by your nature. It's like, there is a sort of like elemental way in which these two people have to be across purposes, right? - Right, so it's like, I don't want to do, like similar to like- - The resistance. - Carrie not wanting to shoot Hal if she had to shoot him. I don't think Noah would have wanted to shoot Hal. Like, I do think Noah is like a good kid. - Couldn't say, don't know him. - Until you threaten him. - Yeah. - The whole town loves him. - Everyone in this town is to be believed. - That like drive by, I'm just sort of like, "Hey, Noah." - Where are you going? - I don't know. - Okay. - All right, self-eulogizing. Guy mentions the Phantom Zone, we love to hear it. We get the, we're about to get the payoff on the extra 5% on the ring, but I love that he's like, "The ring's dead, you can't use it." And he's like, "I wouldn't put it on. "What kind of sick fuck do you think I am?" And I love Guy's line here. "The kind of sick fuck who's good at hiding, "he's a sick fuck." Incredibly good. We mentioned the Carol Farris appearance. And then- - Do we need to talk about that more? I mean, like, admittedly, I'm not super familiar with Carol Farris. But this feels pretty significant, no? - I mean, significant in what sense? Like, the way the creators talk about it, they talk about it almost as an Easter egg. And I think that bears, like, given how they cast it, they didn't, like, cast it with, like, again, a Laura Linney, like, an actor that we expect to see again. So it's just sort of like, Carol, let's mention that before Carrie, Hal did have a relationship, canonically, Carol Farris. I mean, that's her love interest in the comics. So let's put this Easter egg in here. - Yes. Oh, no, I don't think she's gonna show up in a Justice Society movie of some kind. - She busted Sinestro out of jail. It was Carol Farris. - I mean, look, one of the only characters who might be able to do it, theoretically. But, you know, like, I guess it's in that weird ground of, like, once you're referring to these characters by their full name for Easter egg's sake, I'm like, I guess, like, other than the acknowledgement, is there any reason for it? But I guess if Hal's gonna die, she probably would be at the funeral. - It reminded me a lot, actually, of, um. Uh, in the. doctor who episode uh with david tennant when uh sarah jane shows up and he's like my sarah jane my carol ferris as people with great affection and history often do just refer to each other by full names as often as possible my sarah jane all right um the eulogy before we get to the i hope i mattered what is grief full of persevering honestly it broke me apart um there's this section as well my ring has no doubt selected a brave son of a bitch ready to continue my fight and to that man or woman but woman but probably a man not that there would ever be a never be a female lantern i'm just playing the odds here okay so great hilarious but my ring is no doubt selected a brave son of a bitch ready to continue my fight i'm i'm wondering if like if i'm john reading this yeah and i'm thinking about the fact that i like turned down the ring and then it's guy fucking gardner has has a ring now yeah a different ring um but has a ring now like do i feel some sort of pull to give hal the successor that he deserves like does he deserve it that he wanted clearly but also not wanted so much that he would be succeeded in real time that was the fear talking nothing else must be replaced in the moment i'm i'm excited to see what the relationship between john and the hologram is because the hologram was much friendlier much like more excited to train john and stuff like that and so like there is that part of hal that still exists in hologram but also sort of like inside him like when hal in the previous episode in 2016 was like um kind of trying to build bridges a bit with john until john was like protecting zoe and he was like i was giving you a chance to be honest with me and then you weren't so you know there there is a part that remains in hal that is not corroded by fear yes that wanted to mentor john and have a connection absolutely you know it was just so suppressed and stifled yeah by everything else and it's like that's why this is so important to this funeral scene overall and really just the idea of a sad lonely green lantern i i was i was just like pulled in by it so much i think because like like superman's isolation is very different like he's an alien landed here planet explode whole deal you may have heard of it batman is like making a constant like a conscious choice right you know so so i have heard uh like batman is self-imposed like he's choosing to live that lifestyle how like had this ring fallen to his lap spent his life in a hollowed out house with no friends to speak of yeah and basically like gave up chose the ring over every other part of being human it felt like over time and so like having a character that would follow this power to those ends to the point where he wrote his own eulogy at a funeral that no one really attended yeah because they couldn't even they didn't even know who to contact is like such a such a rewarding premise for that version of this character and really like for all of the complaints about like oh is this a show that's scared of its lanternness or that's scared of the fundamental nature of this character like this kind of read on what it means to be a lantern yeah it's so captivating yeah that i'm okay with people not being in suits you know if this is the payoff if it's one thing if it's like grounded for the sake of grounded and it goes nowhere or just turns into a different kind of show that doesn't have any resemblance to it like this is a core examination of what it means to be not just a superhero but specifically a lantern and that's something that i think like is a reason to be a superhero i think it's a reason to be a superhero and it's a reason for this show's existence as much as anything else yeah i really agree and i think um to think about how going from um you know earth's first superhero on the news you know and and yeah what does it mean to be chosen and can you be chosen and have a life and and i think carol being here is not just a my sarah jane moment but also just like a uh he had an opportunity to have a relationship with someone carrie was not the first person for whom he had a had an opportunity and he just like couldn't get past the ring and the old like i mean if carrie shot him this is devastating but like the only point in his life when he could finally really connect with someone was when he didn't have access to the ring anymore this ring is buried this ring is like seductive siren called on on the official pod uh just brick gibson the co-writer of this episode was talking about the ring is almost this like toxic ex-girlfriend like when he was talking about sort of marcus not wanting john to go back to rushville and john goes back to rushville because the siren song of the ring that he can't like let go of is part of it so yeah it's very the one ring it's very completely what it does to bilbo what what will it do to frodo and in turn you know i mean not even that maybe more frodo maybe more frodo than bilbo because it's not just the innate power of the thing but you've been told throughout your life of what's going to happen to you when you put it on and how validating it'll feel and the fact that john gave it up after like a couple minutes like there has to be a part of him that's like but what did i but but was that the right call was that worth it what would happen to me good or bad if i did take on this mantle full time do you know what i wish i loved that scene so much when he put it on the bar i thought it was so good but i there's a part of me that wish they had done that same special effect they do and fellow in fellowship when the ring hits the ground and it's so heavy just feel the weight of of letting that go responsible for that sound design it is phenomenal um it's either i'm not gonna say who's responsible with sound design it was either a i think they magnetized it yeah to make it fall uh the way that it did um that's not answering your sound design question i mean it absolutely does some like movie magic uh moment practical shit um all right marcus and john have the fight over the failed pitch like i really like this like john i could do it all and it's like no buddy you can't absolutely not uh rob a grave and make a pitch at the same time colonel i'm sure this will go well ring charge five percent and then we get the god damn it which i think is just like an all-timer great uh button for the episode our listener steve wrote in to say uh being able to see what john stewart uh is able to do with five percent of the opportunity that was handed to how jordan is going to be delightful yeah i don't know how long it's gonna be five percent again if they can unlock that box and there's a there's a lantern in there because like i personally want the hologram to be around forever that would be that would be my preference um here's uh i mentioned i think in last week's episode that we had sort of talked to um to damon little off off pot about um the hologram and whether or not it was a reference to um quantum leap uh dean stockwell's character and quantum leap is this sort of like hologram character and i was like um al um on on quantum leap and he was like yes he was like but also it's ghost and i didn't understand that until now because the hologram as this sort of like ghost here to solve the mystery of his own murder is really delicious that is pretty nice so yeah and he can't and he can't touch him i think i think he's non-corporeal i think so yeah that i mean that would be a lot for even even the ring to do to summon a fully sentient corporeal being right so yeah very very ghosty very exciting i do love that idea but like especially like if carrie interacts with him at any point oh my god like what am i very sad yeah absolutely sad especially because it's like it's how but not her how right you know a how who doesn't even know her doesn't know her and also as you alluded to like has a different balance to his personality in a way that like i'm sure she resists some of the brasher parts of him but it's like part of what charmed her in the first place does she want 20 years younger nicer hal or did she like 20 years older curmudgeonly how look it's a tough competition but i i think with this stuff though what you're highlighting is that it's like it's like it's like what is interesting narratively but also like what's good for the future of these characters in this show and this property right it's like we want as much of the hologram as we can get but the show kind of has to grow beyond him if it's going to continue well i don't know if the show will continue or like i don't know if there's lanterns i mean probably there's lantern season two but like you know john is moving into like the movie space right so like but once he does is he firing up kyle chandler every time he needs some advice i hear what you're saying that like you want john stewart as a character to stand on his own and he doesn't need this is the training wheels right and it's like they're very charming training wheels and we're all having a great time we're feeling very balanced together but i hear what you're saying and i don't like i don't disagree with you it's like it's like when you talk about something like game of thrones and you're like it has to be legible to people who haven't read the book like there are there are like has to be john stewart has to be able to stand on his own without hal jordan but i just want as much hal jordan as i can get you know what i mean so like i'm not i'm not gonna apologize for that you're not asking nor should you i'm just saying like yeah but i think that's one of that's going to be one of the tensions coming out of this show too it's like i'm having a great time with the buddy cop dynamic with these like mentor mentee kind of paired up kind of participating in at various points in the show and like all of that has been so fun yeah getting to know who john stewart's going to be as a character who could go toe-to-toe with great individual villains even if it's sinestro or otherwise other great individual heroes and feel like a peer like that's going to take some growing from this this point it's like that to me is why this feels fun and energizing as a series in a way that a lot of the other superhero projects haven't like the ones that have introduced people have very rarely felt this rewarding and this promising as far as like who they could be i know that they're like planning to do a lantern season two i'm just like sort of unsure yeah um and i think the dcu is in is in constant flux and so i like it feels like nothing's guaranteed yeah but i do know that they're like planning and developing it so they want there to be a season two to, whether or not we get one, I don't know, and whether or not it just means that aaron pierre is part of like a larger justice league uh sort of in the in the film's plans i don't know what if they just spin him up what if they revive the pennyworth show colon the story of batman's butler you just googled that so you could get the the subtitle no it's burned into my brain unfortunately i was just trying to make sure that the show was actually canceled because it seemed like the kind of thing that may have been going on on like hbo now somehow you know what what channel was it on i think it was on hbo go was it not i thought it was on like epic or like something very strange whatever it was i was gonna say with all due respect to the people making it but i really don't mean it it was too good of a platform for whatever that show was yeah uh epics oh it was epics look at you your your immediate recall of all mgm adjacent properties it's amazing tough to know uh i looked it up opaqueness is a word that you can there we go merriam-webster says so apology rescinded you um all right so that's it for lanterns episode six anything else you want to say but we haven't gotten to oh i do want to say one very important thing i decided in watching this episode i will be inviting and i would consider this episode a binding and formal invitation kelly mcdonald to my funeral i just think what she does in that scene she's not even reading the eulogy yeah and it's just like does she have to do the nebraska accent no she doesn't have to say a word okay i just need the pained knowing looks that may portend that she's not even reading the eulogy murdered me herself i don't even care about the implications i just think what she's delivering there is so powerful like kill me daddy energy but kill me kill me kelly mcdonald it's really not that it's just like i love trying to understand what is going through that character's head in those sequences and it is so rich and so layered and so incredible and she's been so awesome all season i mean that's why that casting has been so perfect because again like if she is our prime suspect for murder either her or her child um i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know her or her child um i again what if it's baby's first murder what if it's him holding the gun and she has her arms around him to show him how it's done and he's like it's okay buttercup you can teach your teen to murder me i just really mean it's okay buttercup and for earl to eat someone those are the things i need i will be leaping off my couch if it's okay buttercup comes to fruition we just we deserve this you know i think we've laid the groundwork you're you and mal your scholarship of this show has been matched this is where it deserves to go anything else you want to say before we go um only one final note which is the closing track on this episode dan our back also very good it's relying on you for that very very good uh i mean are you are you black keys guy i'm not particularly a black keys guy but the dan our back solo stuff i do quite like um what's like one step down from a guy uh casual black keys casual yeah you're black he's curious yeah black he's curious absolutely um thank you to the entire team carlos chirboga is on vacation but we're gonna thank carlos anyway scott lee jacob cornet is here jamie yukich is working on this deborah aldi's working on this arjuna romcapalo is here and joe me and dinner on social thank you to rob mahoney thank you literally getting off a plane to record this podcast with me thank you for this important invitation i do i do have sorry now that i think about it we have one more important thing to say which is the existence of the hologram keeps alive the possibility that these two men nathan fillion kyle chandler might actually be on screen together two of my all-time tv favorites okay we need it you need your mal and because you're you're a firefly guy right of course you're not a catholic guy i've seen more of it than i would care to admit because it's like funneled into the post nba game rerun cycle so it's just like been on the tv yeah exactly but we we salute captain tight pants around here so we need it and i really just need how jordan commenting on whatever golden tooth the bowl cut the white leather all right um we'll see you later this week for a house of reeds book recommendation episode once again send your recommendations hobbits and dragons to do well.com i've gotten a ton already you guys are very well read and amazing and uh and then we'll see you back for more lanterns after that thank you rob mahoney see you soon bye carhartt's holiday gift guides were built in collaboration with the greatest gift giver of all time santa claus himself old saint nick counts on carhartt's durable gear to have his back through rain sleep and snow on the biggest night of the year because when everyone's counting on you to do your job what else would you wear to work tap the banner to grab a gift for every hard working person on your holiday shopping list or head to carhartt.com traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in and that's too late simply safe is changing that stop this is simply safe police are 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