‘Lanterns’ Episode 3 Deep Dive

Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today to remind me that we come into existence alone and we die the same. That's not true. We're together. It's beautiful. It's Joanna Robinson, the guardian of my universe. How are you? Yeah. Wow, if only I had that Laura Linney riz, I could dream. Boy, very hip and on fashion, bleached blonde kind of buzz cut look. It's buzz cut season right now. Not in Laura Linney form, but when we get the brief, I have transformed in the driveway into a guardian. I was like, damn. What other buzz cuts are you eyeing right now? They're everywhere. Your F1 drivers? No, they all have kind of flowing locks and curls because they're spending a lot of their time on yachts. But a lot of the Instagram haircut reels that I receive tell me that it's buzz cut season. Well, you don't send me any of your haircut. I'll start. Okay, content. I'll start. Listen, we're here to talk about lanterns. Yes. Episode three, we are going to dive deep into episode three, OutKast, and we will hit some programming reminders and everything else right after this. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot. And they've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at $49. Then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. Observe the North American dad. 50s. Great polo collection. He enters. His vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling. No hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply. ♪ music playing ♪ All right, programming reminders. What are they? We will be doing lanterns on Mondays. Yeah. Throughout the season. That's the goal. There's going to be a week later in the season where I'm out of town. We're figuring out it might be like one week that things are a little different, but that's the goal. Monday. Also, it's Buffy time. Mm-hmm. Buffy season five, part one. Later this week. And then part two. Later next week. Later next week. Yeah. Can't wait. You're almost done. I am less almost done than I should be sitting here on Monday. That's okay. But I am almost done. You're almost done, though. I am almost done. I have eight episodes still to watch the first time, and then the first however many we haven't decided, probably ten, a second time. But what a wonderful way to spend a few days, honestly. I'm thrilled. Can't wait. It's been just an incredible time with our guy, Spike. Yeah. A rich text, as always. Buffy season five is fantastic. Spoiler warning. Yeah. Okay. So for all of the DCU, or DCEU if you prefer, the DCAU, that's the animated universe, comics. Yes. Though, again, we will put things that we find particularly touchy in a little spoiler section at the end. We don't have a ton today because this is largely show invented, you know, background lore for a character. But we do have some theory emails. We do have some theory emails that we will put in that little section at the end. Wonderful. And we will get to all of that later. And you will have a warning. You will know that it is coming. That's right. But that's my spoiler warning. Great. Also, follow us on social. Do it. Like and subscribe. Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera. At House of R-Pod. Hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com. We got a ton of emails today. The invoice is always open. Yeah. Just fantastic stuff. Have we started to get Buffy emails, season five? Yeah. But the Buffy emails are just- And by started, I mean over the last five months. The Buffy emails are eternal. They just trickle in. Yeah. Pointed season five emails that you would like to send. Yeah. We're recording on Thursday, so you've got some time. That's right. Yeah. You do have a few days. You have a few days, just like I have a few days. To watch eight and then 10 more episodes. Yeah. You got it. Eight and then 10 again. I'm excited. Yeah. It's fun. Any other programming reminders, spoiler warnings, follow along messages, anything of that nature? I don't think so. Great. It's time for the opening snapshot. Okay. Episode three, Outcast. 54 minutes long. Directed by Stephen Williams. Lost. Watchmen. Written by Vanessa Baden Kelly. Do we want to hit our opening snapshot emails first? Do we want to give our table setting take on the episode first? What order makes the most sense here? I want to hear what you think before I want to hear what our lovely listeners have to say. Fantastic. I really enjoyed this episode. I think that this season of TV has just been great so far. It is fascinating to me. With through three episodes of an eight episode season, every episode is different, not just in its focus, but in its structure, right? So we talked about this after episode one. Okay. We were in multiple timelines. We moved through the decades. Is that going to be the case throughout? And then when we did our episode two pod, we talked about the real boldness of taking our two primary figures in the story and splitting them up when so much of it is going to be the focus and thrust of the pilot, of the premiere of the pilot, was oriented around their dynamic, right? So that was bold. And then we end episode two on this huge Hal Sinestro moment, and we're like, what is about to happen? Pause. And we pull back into a Jon Stewart origin episode that is rooted not only in Jon's history, but in Jon's family's history, his father. We learn a ton about his mother and his mother's guiding hand in his life. There's a lot of Guardians lore here as well that's a little bit more for us to parse and assess as we see the interactions that the Lara Linney character, Lyanna, has with Jon, with Bernadette, et cetera. And then, boy, the closing of this episode, we're right back into the deep tension, but now with more understanding of what has fueled that. Not only this trainee relationship, but the history that Jon's father, Jon Sr., had with the ring chosen, and then the ring went to a lot of other people, too, and then how that's fascinating, but also Jon's dishonorable discharge from the military, the Hal tie there. So seeing and understanding how many points of their lives have intersected in some way, and then what this episode did thematically to. You know, we've talked about a lot of the differences between these characters, right? The difference in age, the difference in the relationship to the ring, and this episode is deeply rooted in race and the experience of being a Black man in America, a Black family in America, and I thought that that was explored really poignantly. We are two white people, you know, and so we will do our best to talk about that thoughtfully. I also just thought the performances in this episode were great, and yeah, I really liked it. So I'm curious to see what, moving forward. Yeah. the structural intent is of every episode. Like, is every episode in this season going to feel a little bit different, or now will we settle into four, five, six, seven, eight, something that feels a little bit more similar week to week? You know, we talked back in the premiere about how the This Season On teaser that we got at the end of the pilot had a lot of footage that we hadn't seen in preseason trailers. Facial hair, Jon. Yeah, the goatee that we, at least from the first episode, are associating with the 2020 six timeline based on how that ended. We haven't seen that material yet. So does that mean that we're not going to actually settle into episodes being very similar in how they're structured, but we will move into the future timeline? I have no idea, but I'm excited to find out. What did you think of this episode, Jo? And also, how delighted are you to be back with your guy, Stephen Williams, one of your favorite directors? I do love Stephen Williams. I think he's incredible. And it was really fun to watch the official pod this morning and the way that they talked about it. And in general. I would say, listening to Stephen Williams talking about directing this episode, listening to Vanessa Bott and Kelly talk about writing this episode, listening to the host of that podcast, who is a Black man and his experience, like, listening to and listening to our pals the Midnight Boys talk about it, like, you know, the way this episode resonated on a personal experience level for a lot of those people, for Aaron Pierre as well, et cetera, makes me appreciate it more than I would. And I think that's why I'm so excited to be back with Stephen Williams, because it's something that matters to people. It matters to me. So that matters. I do think that I have some, like, structural questions about this episode. Flashback episodes are tricky, can be tricky. And in terms of, like, the momentum of the season, I don't mind having a John Flashback episode here, but thinking, you know, obviously, if we have Stephen Williams, who, you know, really cut his teeth on Lost, and, you know, Damon Lindelof is, like, working on this show, then we're thinking about the way in which. which really revolutionized the way that Flashback was used. seen the television show Lost. Nearly every episode has a flashback to a character's backstory. But what that show does with flashback is there will be like some sort of like propulsive action storytelling happening in the present day in the island. And then you will flash to a character in any given week and something about their past that you as a viewer didn't already know that helps you understand the decisions they're making in real time there. OK, it's the best. It is the best. This is a slightly different dynamic. And again, like on the official pod, they were talking about why flashing between this job interview with Laura Linney's character, this like, you know, white woman style to look like she's from the 1950s. Why a black man sort of proving himself for this role, why that feels emotionally propulsive, I think, to certain people watching this episode. I think cutting between an interview tell us more. about yourself and then telling them about themselves is slightly less interesting than some of the other flashback. Another reason to have Stephen Williams here, not just for his Lost bona fides, but his Watchmen bona fides. And we talked about the fact that like Stephen Williams directed the best episode of Watchmen, which is a flashback episode. But that is a like a very artistically ambitious flashback episode where you have Regina King's character sort of like falling through time and everything is sort of blending in this surreal dream space. So that's a very different kind of way to tell a flashback. But so I think that like, and in both that episode, that Watchmen episode written by the great Cord Jefferson in this episode, they very much like say the thing, like they're just saying the thing. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But I guess I think I appreciated this episode more than I loved this episode, if that makes sense at the end of the day. And it makes sense that like certain things would resonate with different people differently. I did think that Jasmine Cephas Jones, who plays Bernadette, who original Peggy from Hamilton, love her, and Peggy, was fantastic in this episode. Just a really titanic performance. Yeah, absolutely. Unbelievable. I hope, to your point about the distinction in stitching flashbacks throughout maybe an entire season or even series versus concentrating them. I'm curious to see if we get more time with John's parents in the past. with these performers because we do know that there are two other performers who have been cast as older versions. Yeah. Presumably for the future timeline. Yeah, we've already heard one on the phone, I would have to guess. Maybe. But like, so this takes Jasmine Cephas Jones as Bernadette up through. To 2016. 2016. Yeah, so maybe the future casting is 2026. Got it. More fodder perhaps then for spending time in the future or that could be casting for future seasons. There's also older actors who've been cast as brothers. Yeah, as well. So, good stuff. One of the things, you mentioned the official pod. It was, I agree, a fantastic episode of the official pod. Also, another great little, you know, just at the end of the episode of Lanterns itself, you know, as HBO does, a few minutes inside the episode. And one of the things that Vanessa Benkelli said on the inside the episode was, John's origin story doesn't exist in the actual comics. And that's really freaking frustrating because I can tell you a million things about Hal Jordan. So we knew that we really wanted to delve into that and give him the proper origin story that every other great superhero gets. You know, I totally understand why that would be very important to the creative team of the episode and the series. Here's what I think is so interesting. And a fun thing for fans of Jon Stewart, a character who means so much to so many people, to get to really spend all of that time in his past. Trying to learn more about the evolution of Jon Stewart as a character in the comics and and uh, where he, where he really became a rock star, which was in the animated, uh, series. Looking at, like, when he was created, um, you know, so, Denny O'Neill and Neil Adams, I think, in, in, in the early 1970s, um, create Jon Stewart as a backup to the backup, right? But I was, I was listening to a podcast interview that Denny O'Neill gave, um, right before the first Green Lantern movie came out. So, like, it was really funny to listen to that because they were all sort of like, Ryan Reynolds, like, they were, like, kind of excited about it. Anyway. Who wasn't? And then? So, he was, he was talking about inventing Jon Stewart and he was, you know, it was like two white guys in the early 70s and he was, like, sort of active in a lot of, like, social justice movements and he was talking about the things that he was, he was activated in, but he was like, we thought it was important for there to be a black man as, as the Green Lantern. Um, but I didn't feel like, and, and he said this, you know, this was a real era and we can talk about this a little bit later, but, like, the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age of comics. Yeah. The Bronze Age of comics, which is when Jon Stewart enters the era, which is early, early 1970s up through, like, 85, was a real, sort of, like, social justice movement inside of comics and, you know, and so they were, like, exploring darker themes and people were, like, doing drugs and, and in the Green Lantern, Green Arrow team-up, which was this, sort of, like, key, really popular reinvigorating storyline for Green Lantern, they were, like, talking about the assassinations of MLK and Bobby Kennedy, like, they were really getting into the political stuff, but what Denny O'Neill has said in multiple interviews is he was, like, I never felt like I had an answer. Like, something, something was going terribly wrong in our country is what it felt like. I never felt like I had an answer, but I felt like it mattered to me to put it onto the page that it was happening. It mattered to me that there be a black Green Lantern, but I didn't have any answers or any personal experiences of what it meant to be a black man in the early 1970s. He was, like, but what I hoped was that by putting that stuff out there, there would be kids who were reading it and see Jon Stewart on the page and they would grow up and they would tell the story of, like, why this mattered or what the answers might be or what the complications might be. And the Bronze Age of comics is so interesting because it is the first time that, you know, Denny O'Neill, who grew up as a fan of comics, the first time that comic book fans generationally could be comic book creators. So thinking about that, as, like, he was a fan of comics, he grew up to be a very consequential comic book creator in the 70s for DC and thinking about the other young people. So thinking about Vanessa growing up and, you know, maybe wasn't the hugest Green Lantern fan in the world, but, like, as a fan of story, growing up with the existence of Jon Stewart, especially as he exploded when they put him on the Animated Justice League, that's, and so for a generation of people who weren't even comics readers but were animated show watchers, that's their Green Lantern is Jon Stewart. You know, and that was almost, like, an incidental thing and we can talk about that a little bit later, but, like, so the curiosity about his origin story coming back to this woman who was working on this show and the entire writer's room and the entire team, but, like, this woman who grew up and was, like, I am now in a position to fulfill the prompt that, sort of, Denny O'Neill put out there in the first place of, like, I'm gonna give you this, this vessel. She's, like, let me fill it, you know? And be frustrated that no one else filled it before me, but, like, let me take that opportunity, which I think is really cool. I love that and it is one of the amazing things about comic book storytelling as a medium and as a slice of the creative universe. You know, we, certainly in recent years in the superhero fatigue, you know, movie era, sometimes can feel the opposite of that where it's, like, how many times, how many, Batman movies are we gonna get? And then we watch the Batman, and we're like, this was Dynamite. But this is one of the great things about the mantle inside and across the creative universe being passed in comic book storytelling is that so many different creators get to return to the same characters and to the same fictional universes and put their mark on it. And that can be about individual perspective and experience. It can be about where the world is at a given moment in time. It can be about how those things inform each other, right? And so that's one of the, you know, there are plenty of people who don't love comic books who are like, man, people have been writing comic books about the same characters for how many decades? Where do you even know where to start? And they live and they die and they die again. Yeah, yeah. But that can be part of the joy of it for so many people is not only the evolution across time, but getting to pick your, the book that made you fall in love with the character, the creator who unlocked something inside of you because of what they unlocked inside of the character. Like, it's one of the things about comic book storytelling and genre storytelling. So it's really fun to see that manifesting here on the screen. What I think is so interesting about the premise of this show and this episode specifically in terms of that job interview concept is the idea of like the ring chooses the lantern. Yeah. Versus the guardians have decided, actually, we're not so fond of who the ring is choosing these days. So, and I have some notes for the ring, not necessarily on Hal Jordan, but like, Jon Stewart Sr. doesn't seem to be an incredibly stable person so like, you know, I wouldn't have even picked him as a candidate personally. Jon Stewart Jr., yes, but Jon Stewart Sr., I'm like, that guy? That guy who's shooting televisions? That's the guy? The guy with the drinking problem? That's the guy? But he started shooting televisions and developed the drinking problem because of what the ring did. So that was an interesting aspect of the episode too. in a super soldier serum sort of way, what was always in there and what wasn't. Okay. Of course. This is what Neil Adams said about creating Jon Stewart as the lantern. He says, one of the reasons why I fought the artist, one of the reasons why I fought so hard to have a black green lantern was I did not want anyone to have any reason to say this character shouldn't exist the ring went out and sought out the best because john was the best it gave him the prize and the prize that he got the job of cleaning up everyone else's mess and he was willing to take it and he wasn't going to have any reward all he would have was a little gold star in his notebook and he would be a hero that prize was given once to a white guy and a couple of times to some assholes but it was given to john stewart rightly and john stewart to me is a real hero as opposed to a secondary hero so this idea that like from um you can't push back on us making a black man uh the green lantern because the ring chooses and if the ring chose him then he's worthy and that's it at the end of the day and what's so fascinating about the premise that they've set for this show is like this this black man this version of this black man isn't just chosen he has to and and you've been you know banging this drum from the start but like he has to prove it yeah you know and and which of those paths makes you better equipped to act like john stewart do the job particularly interesting i think now to know that because of the conversation between bernadette and the guardian in the driveway you know it's not they're not just checking in on john senior many of the candidates who had this experience so like how many people did the ring seek out who failed before it got to how that's such an interesting little uh uh or so yeah who's that who's that tall handsome white guy who leaves the interview room before john walks in right how many candidates were being assessed in this pair and they're currently being in session as well you know what i mean like he's he's the trainee but is there a backup to the trainee you know yeah exactly to the guardian and how many of them were also being cultivated and assessed over time like how much of it is that interview cultivated and assessed so i would say groomed uh you know we'll get into all of it i think it's interesting like uh you know when vanessa in the official podcast and elsewhere is comparing the stewarts to the guardian and the guardian and the guardian and the guardian and the a you know like a richard williams like earl woods and richard williams right the venus and serena's dad and tiger woods's dad were the very interesting but also joe jackson uh-huh uh you know and so it's just sort of like and and and she and steven were very careful about saying like hey before you judge with you know like we actually don't care if you agree with what they did they just did what they did and yeah and we're interested in presenting the reasons why yes not saying this is the right move to shoot apples off your son's head or something like that but i think it's a good that but it's interesting to think about uh you know maybe not the williams sisters but certainly i would say tiger woods who's had a very troubled life and michael jackson who had a very troubled life where it's like excellence at what cost you know what i mean and it's just sort of like do it introduces this interesting dramatic tension where it's like do i want john stewart to have the ring yes because i like him and i'm rooting for him and all this other stuff like that but like but also maybe not you want him to like decide he doesn't want it groomed well it's not just that it's like the allison hightower thing like how could i know right sure if that's what i wanted allison was on my mind quite a bit you know but like he's been groomed for this by his parents i'm gonna go ahead and say i do not approve of the of the methods uh that were used here and so at the service of these guardians that i do not trust and so you know and how jordan seems like he hasn't had a great life as green lantern and so like in the way that i care about john stewart and i want him to be happy am i like is is the ring the way forward for that right i thought that the you know we'll talk about some of the specific lines and moments in the episode that unlocked these questions but broadly speaking i thought the the episode attempted certainly to thread the needle between uh asking us to seek to understand instead of overtly judge while also saying we have some notes to show us something young john after the walk home sobbing on his bed and bernadette's discomfort the the even just the the from the word go the conversation between john senior and bernadette he's gonna hate us like there's a acknowledgement from the beginning of what the cost of this will be right and then the course corrections the moments where bernadette in particular has to say or confront what this has done to john and then we have in part because of the interview structure we have these moments throughout where we are presented with john i'll say present day for the 2016 timeline because that's cleaner probably but obviously we have that's not actually the it's the primary timeline of this show so far it is not actually present day present day for the purposes of this discussion talking about the way that he loves his parents and we've you know found myself watching the episode trying to understand how he could be in that place right and then we see that he loves his parents and we've you know found myself watching the episode trying to the journey to that but it doesn't ever feel uncomplicated for for john and i think that all of the different aspects of how john sees and assesses the world how he's thinking about the guardians how he thinks about his service how he thinks about his family how he thinks about hal there's such a complexity at play um you know one of the moments this is about the guardians not about yeah john's parents but like one of the moments that i i just i i loved was um you know liana character saying like i'm really sorry about john says the cops came like try to sell this diamond and the cops came and the guardian is like sorry about that you know and john's like yeah i'll pass that along really scoffing at the idea that the guardians have any true ability to care or understand what life on earth is like which is so central of course to this episode and yet he is participating in this process right and so that is a uh like there's a tension there just for john himself that i found quite interesting to to watch in this episode i also just think it's interesting that like um so if you think about those the the the tiger woods the the william sisters the michael jackson cops it's like being being rigorously trained to be star athletes or entertainers um he's being groomed to be a cop the ultimate cop the space cop and that is what i think is so interesting but is super like extra layer of interesting which is sort of like um when we meet john stewart in the comics he is pushing back on some cops who are harassing people uh you know because they're black and like that so that's that's the john stewart meeting the comics as written by two white men of just sort of like fuck the cops like the cops are are corrupt and racist and all this his entire life being focused to put him in that system sure slap bang in that system is fascinating yeah it's like to be the most visible person in the world to be a hero to be as bernadette will say like a figure who other kids can then look up to admire want to emulate and that hero is a space cop is a cop you know one of the aspects of of this um particular fictional universe that is so intriguing emails all right i'm gonna zoom through these really quickly we've got a lot uh just just really quickly tina and lily sent us i sent you this email amazing they got matching apple tat bff apple tattoos incredible that's just the best astounding they weren't colored they were a black like black outline apple tattoos but uh so wonderful really sweet just just incredible bonded over the pod so they got apple tattoos it's amazingly touching uh happy birthday to m from pat just a quick shout out birthday uh justin let us know that uh kimball beat rushville uh in a in a game damn uh friday night lights 24 no dead aliens involved as far as i can tell 52 points uh and then he said i would like to pick a nit that john stewart finding a cab to rushville on his return trip from retrieving the charging station you can barely get an uber between lincoln and denver ain't no way someone has taken a cab so justin boots on the ground reporting from nebraska some creative license taken here about how quickly someone would be able to get from the airport into town noted will run in to say how after how after two episodes has nobody mentioned that the macon family is william bill times two carrie and zoe uh meaning this is these are the names of the bill simmons family yes uh does carrie spell differently but this is still hysterical does bill simmons sue after we find out that jason ritter is a manhunter secretly named ben the whole time what do you think oh my god this is great this is great stuff i'll have to ask bill if there's a a noah and his extended family though our ringer colleague noah malale is kind of like a uh a noah malale is kind of like a noah malale is kind of like a noah malale is kind of like a grandson to her son okay so i think i think it tracks the real question is do the macons have any pets named murph oh that's what we need to great question yeah um i did wait wasn't the militia guy named ben yes whoa dude bro ailey ben holy hell thanks for remembering ailey ben i forgot about it that's amazing too busy thinking about whalen and bailey to remember ailey ben yeah wow okay it's all here i did maybe convince bill to watch the show not based on this but the actor who plays um chavez in this episode um is from 90210 played uh andrea's husband on 90210 so i texted bill that's all he needs when i watched this episode i was like guess who's in this episode and he was like holy shit he was very excited he's like does he have like actual lines i was like yeah he's got two scenes with the main character where it's just the two of them like that's you he's not just like random background guy number three he has like an actual role in this episode and he's like i gotta watch lanterns and in my head i'm like he's not gonna watch lanterns and also he might He's not going to enjoy lanterns probably, but I tried. I tried. He might. Admirable effort. Okay. Our listener, Mickey, wrote in with a voice memo that I loved because we were talking about the comic book character, it's Atrocitus, which I was like, should it be pronounced Atrocitus? Mickey wrote in to say, I believe the correct pronunciation is indeed the high Valyrian one, and that he sent a voice memo, and I'm going to try to reproduce it. Atrocitus is what he said. Atrocitus. Diamond. Yeah, diamond. Atrocitus. It was like an incredible voice memo from Mickey, so thank you so much. Boy. Several of our listeners recommended that we watch Aaron Pierre and Rebel Ridge. Guess what? I did. It slapped. It was great. Big ringer movie. Had a great time with it. Haven't seen it. Adam loved it. Bill, Sean, and Chris love it. A real Netflix movie that doesn't really exist, but this is what I was telling you that it was like Rob Mahoney and Kai Grady over on the Prestige feed were like, you want to watch it? Rebel Ridge. What are you doing with your life? Kai Grady is the king of Netflix movies that don't exist, but he has seen them. Rebel Ridge does exist more than your average Netflix movie that doesn't exist. It was a thing when it came out. Yeah, but like, I was like, when I was like, why didn't I see this? Then I was like, oh, it was a Netflix movie. That's why. Because they just passed me by. But Don Johnson in perfect shitbag racist mode, really. And just like Aaron Pierre. Aaron Pierre's charismatic stoicism is really on display inside of that movie, so I really enjoyed it. Our listener, Porchy. Porchy, are you named for that guy from The Crown? I don't know. But Porchy wrote in to say, the title of the email was, does Hal Jordan own a toilet brush? Okay. Intriguing. And he said, regarding your discussion of the lack of stuff in Hal's giant house, it's interesting to think about how that relates to his specific power set as a lantern. That is, he makes stuff. Counterfeit money, bottle openers, blast-proof domes, all of which evaporates into dust as soon as it fulfills its function. Hal believes he is complete and self-sufficient because he can fabricate whatever he needs the moment he needs it, and then never thinks about it again. This likely extends to his relationships as well, in that he doesn't want to rely on anyone but himself, and he feels like he needs to. He doesn't need to. Hopefully, the show explores the extent to which this is, or more likely, isn't true. Hal's growth can be demonstrated when he buys a hairdryer and a fancy bath mat in case Sheriff Kane, Sheriff Kerry, as we like to call her, sleeps over. I loved this email. I loved thinking about this. He definitely doesn't own a toilet brush because he definitely has a cleaning service that comes in. That is for sure. But in terms of the larger, like, does Hal Jordan need a blender for his margaritas? Right. No, because he can just make one and then poof it. That's fun to think about. It is. I like it. And putting down roots means going to Bed Bath & Beyond. And then our listener Taylor wrote in, he went through a bunch of lines in previous episodes that now have more resonance after watching episode three. I'm not going to go through it all because it'll probably spoil our own conversation. But I will say he was talking about ways in which flashback episodes have not. Not worked in recent television, like the Acolyte, when we feel like we are. Acolyte. Feel like the action is A, grinding to a halt, and B, we're not being told anything we don't already know, right? And then ways in which it has, like, the Chicago Bardo episode in Severance season two, which was an incredible flashback episode. So just sort of thinking about, like, because our pal Alan Sepinwall wrote an article, was not fond of this episode, wrote an article about the. Um. Disease of the grinding to a halt flashback episode inside of modern prestige television. And I agree with the sentiment. I think this isn't quite that in my view. But I think it's always interesting to think about, like, when are we deploying a flashback episode? What are we learning? You know, do we miss key ingredients of the show? Like, for example, something we were really vibing on even when they were split up was the Hal and John dynamic. Yeah. And this episode doesn't have that until the final. Right. Scene. Yeah. So, like, you could have done this episode flashing back to John while he and Hal are doing something in the modern day in 2016. Except we're flashing to the lovely Lori Linney instead. So, like, does. To your point about, like, the. Does each episode feel distinct? You're, like, together, split, but still in the same timeline, and then absent Hal altogether. Yeah. I miss that dynamic inside of this episode. Of course. For sure. Same. No question. No question. I think that. But the overall assessment of the reliance on the standalone flashback at some point in an increasingly short season of TV in the Prestige era is, I think, a valid and interesting debate. I remember, like, you and Rob talked about this a little bit with Widow's Bay, just that that even a really great episode in a great season sort of just raised that question of, okay, this is, like, a thing that just is happening. We almost expect it to happen at some point. Yeah. I think that. Because of that Vanessa quote that we shared from, you know, after the episode about the desire to give us John's origin story in more concentrated form, I'm, like, kind of willing to hit pause on that debate for this show, given the larger impulse and reason behind wanting to do it. I don't know that there. Because sometimes it's a question of the when and the where in the season, and sometimes it's a question of whether. Or to have it in that form. Yeah. at all in terms of the solo episode versus Stitch throughout. Yeah. I don't know that there would have been. So if the desire was always to do a standalone John origin episode, which it seems like it was. Yeah. then I don't know that there would have been a better time in the season to do it. I think giving us this depth of insight early is probably best, but I don't think that's something we'll be able to assess in full until we complete the season. I was just. And maybe this is an unfair comp, but I was just thinking about, like, okay, so an episode that. That Stephen Williams directed for Lost Season 2, Adrift, which is Sawyer and Michael are. The raft has come apart, and they are literally adrift on the ocean. I love that there is a water scene in this episode. There is, yeah. Stephen Williams, master of the water takes. But, like, on Lost, you see something that happened in that person's past that the other characters in the scene don't know about. Yeah, right. And we didn't know about it. We didn't know about it yet. Stephen talks about it in the official podcast for this episode, an empathy muscle. You're building an empathy muscle, right? Yeah. And that's what those. You meet these characters in Lost, and you're like, wow, that's an asshole. And then you find out how they got to the island, and you're like, oh, I understand why that person's an asshole. Or they don't seem like as much of an asshole anymore now that I know more about them. I, the viewer. But the people around them don't know. I don't know that, yeah. So there's that dramatic tension. But also just, like, the cut from this, like, very painful thing that happened. Their past to whatever act of decision they're making in the modern storyline versus cutting from, you know. And I love the way this episode bounces around in time. But cutting from, you know, this happened in his, like, sniper assignment, and this happened in his childhood. And then Laura Linney is asking a pointed question about that. It's just slightly. I think that's a completely valid note. It's slightly different. And I'm not saying this was trying to do exactly Lost. Of course it's not. But I was just thinking about that as a comparison, you know? Well, say. Not only because of Stephen Williams. But, and Damon Lindelof, and the use of flashbacks, all the things we've already talked about. Just the use of the word candidate. Oh, yeah. I think makes it very difficult not to think about Lost. We're always thinking about Lost. We are always thinking about Lost. Last but not least, before we go into the deep dive, an hour or so into this podcast or whatever. Our listener Reagan said, I have a lot of. Unbelievable. Before you even just. Let me just say, I see the green apple at the end. Yeah. Do you have a filter set, a rule set in the Gmail inbox to remove if someone puts a red apple in? No. No? Interesting. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts about episode three, Outcast, Race and Family, and Expectations and Fear and Courage and Fulfillment and Hero Worship and Entitlement and Laura Linney and So So Much, but I'll just limit myself to this. I was very impressed to see the show demonstrate the correct usage of red apples as trash to be blown to pieces and thrown away. Have a great day. We did get another email from a listener, actually, like since I put these emails in, called, from Donovan, called just Apple Economics. Yeah. Roughly how much of the diamond funds went into the Stewart family's red apple budget? Did they buy cheap or splurge? For their favorite son. Great question. That is a great question. Do you think that green apples couldn't be used for- Because they're too precious. Target practice because their skin is- Delicious and precious. Too waxy, cutting and thick for even a- Too scrumptious. Grateful, ammoed. And challenging in the best way. Puncture and penetrate. Yeah. Okay. You can only be you. Yeah. You can only be you. And you wouldn't have me any other way? No, I honestly wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. Thanks. I love you. Deep dive? Let's do it. Let's do it. When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect- Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way. Using smart AI cameras, live US-based agents help deter intruders in under 30 seconds. Don't just record a break-in. Stop it from ever happening. Plan starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 70% off your new system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com slash Spotify. 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at $49.99 a month. Visit SimpliSafe.com slash licenses. For alarm license information. This holiday, all plans, even unlimited, are just $15 a month. A holiday deal this good obviously deserves an enormously expensive holiday song like All I Want. Right. Okay, we can't afford that. You know what? Forget the music budget. We're going to stick with whatever's in the public domain. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms Carhartt's holiday gift guides were built in collaboration with the greatest gift giver of all time, Santa Claus himself. Old St. Nick counts on Carhartt's durable gear to have his back through rain, sleep, and snow on the biggest night of the year. Because when everyone's counting on you to do your job, what else would you wear to work? Tap the banner to grab a gift for every hardworking person on your holiday shopping list or head to carhartt.com. Okay. John's interview begins. We open in the 2016 timeline. John is falling. He's falling from this domed ceiling. He lands on these mattresses. He makes his way through these signs with arrows guiding him. It's kind of like abandoned mall and then office space setting. Can I talk? Can I just. Please? Already paused. Want to talk about that. Get in there. Um, as this sort of like this decision. Okay. First of all, it's a, it's a, it's a very budgetarily friendly, uh, way to do this, uh, scene. Yeah. So, but it's such a cool, uncanny setting for this. Okay. So this is John meeting an alien. Right. Right? Yes. First of all, the alien looks like Laura Linney. Doesn't look like that giant blue, uh, thing that we see or the little blue, uh, things that the guardians are in, in the comic books. Right. So they could have done like a little, a little blue guy or, or gal. Right? Uh, they did Laura Linney instead. Right. And there's an in-universe sort of explanation for that. Um. Yes. But to set it in this derelict mall, which first of all is like this cool metaphor for like the crumbly American dream. Sure. No question. American commerce just completely abandoned as a lot of our malls are, even in 2016, I guess. Um, and, uh, and then also it's just a, it's just like a cool sci-fi fantasy trick. Yes. To present an uncanny. To present an uncanny, uh, to give us something extraordinary wrapped inside of a really extra, uh, ordinary mundane setting. Yeah. So if you think of something like, I mean, Doctor Who would do this all the time, but like, uh, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or something like that, where you're like, we're giving you bureaucracy, we're giving you a, a really boring looking job interview in a really dumpy cluttered office. Yeah. But actually this is an alien and the job you're in for, interviewing for is. Space cop. Space cop. Yeah. The Green Lantern Corps. You know what I mean? And so it's just like, I think that juxtaposition is, and, and it's something that Damon has historically done really well inside of his shows. Like if you think about like the derelict Dharma stations inside of the, of Lost, where like all, all this extraordinary stuff is happening while you're surrounded by like defunct tech from the 1970s. And there's just this like weird, uncanny, uh, aspect to that. And I just love that they used it here. I, I agree. I mean, and HBO Sunday Night Prestige drama loves, uh, uh. Decrepit Mall, shout out Last of Us. Um, but I agree. It felt like the, you know, if the, if the show is the ring in this case, then this is a construct it would manifest that is in keeping with what is in the subconscious of the thing and what are they trying to show us? You know, the overall, um, this is something we've been enjoying since the beginning of the series, the overall balance of this version of Lantern saying we are rooting it in this grounded, very earthbound, human, recognizable thing. Yeah. And through that, we will actually somehow heighten the way that the galactic and vast and sprawling feels either ingrained or distinct rather than that feeling like an impossible to reconcile clash. I think the show's done it. And then in addition to that, little aspects of this, like, um, just the fact that the door says manager. It's a good way quickly to, of, of course that's the, the office that Liana, the guardian of the universe took. Right. I'm in charge. Space cops have bosses. Like that idea has been there from the beginning of the show. It's like, uh, thinking of something like supernatural and the way that they, they did God on that show. Like, you know what I mean? It's just sort of like, yes. Yeah. It's so, it's so ordinary. It becomes extraordinary. And like, um, and I just, I really love that. And like, they didn't have to do it that way. You know, like when we loop back to the end of the episode, we've, we find that like, cause we're like, Hey, how did he start falling? Right. And then when the episode opens and then later we find out he like went through this, he took a leap of faith through, through, through a hole. Right. But like that hole could have taken him to like a, you know, crystalline space, you know, you know, fortress of solitude to ask like high tech sort of place, but it took him to a pile of dusty mattresses in a mall. And I just think that that's awesome. I really agree. I also liked the kind of timeline cementing that this did by, uh, clarifying for us that this was 2016. Now, again, this is something we knew. Two months. We knew from the beginning of the show, okay, like we've been training for two months and here that was actually presented that that moment is kind of like, that's a long time for you to not have taught me really anything of consequence about, uh, how to do this job. But what you feel here, I think is just the freshness and the newness of the relationship between Hal and John in this form. And then you pair that with the depth of history and our ability to understand a new how, you kind of understood this, but we, there's a deepening of that understanding because the series opens with young John watching Hal on TV. Like from the beginning, we know that Hal has been a figure in the Stewart family life. We come to understand exactly in what fashion. Right. And so there's like simultaneously this note of this is a really fresh thing and it has been inextricable from the entire life that John has lived. I thought that was very tidily reinforced as well. Um, this is where the other person leaves. Yeah. When Liana, can we talk about this name quickly? Laura Linney Liana. It's just, it's just very like Waylon and Halen Rushville. Like is Liana just, it's kind of. Yeah. Bits of Laura Linney's name. Laura Linney. Yeah. Anyway, I was like, is that really, I thought it was actually not correct when I saw that that was her name, but it is interesting stuff. Um, we already talked about this, the, the, the other person leaving, you know, and also just the, this is like, it reminded me. It reminded me a little bit of the, um, you know, the realtor trick, like make sure that you schedule the people who are coming to see the house to arrive the second, the people who were just there left. Like she wants John to know that other people are in the running for this job. Um, on, on our, on our, on our guard with the guardians immediately. That reminds me of that story I told you about, um, when I was touring, uh, houses in Los Angeles and I got there early by accident. Yeah. And then this guy comes running up. He's like, Oh, are we all here early? And it was just like, yeah, it was like clearly a plant. It was like so bizarre. Anyway, great stuff. Um, oh yeah. So she tells John to wait. Um, yes, which he does. He takes it quite literally, um, all night and she is just astonished by this, right Joe? Yeah. But this is John's training at home and the Marines eventually with Hal. I want to talk about her character design here. Yeah, please. Okay. So hiring Laura Linney, you know, obviously Chris Mundy has this connection to her via Ozark and stuff like that. So he's like, if you, if you, if you can call out Laura Linney, you're going to call Laura Linney, right? Yeah. Great. Um, but the, the decision to make her look like a 1950s housewife is really interesting to me. This sort of like, uh, cooks like Betty Crocker looks like Donna Reed sort of vibe coming from her, this sort of space Karen energy that she's giving off, but also, so like she's like, uh, if. If we're going by the comic book ages, she's like a silver age guardian, like this is, you know, so like of, of a different time, uh, has not updated her look in any way to, you know, she's like, I, we find this is less terrifying if we, if we present ourselves as human, but a human from like the 1950s and not a human from, from the eighties, which is when, you know, she first meets, uh, his family, et cetera. And I think that's interesting. Yeah. Also, we want to think about Jon Stewart having sex with Zoe. Uh, in the first episode. Yeah. Let's talk about his mommy issues, which, uh, we can just triangulate across his mom, his hot mom, this hot space mom and, uh, and, and Zoe making grandma, hot grandma, you know, just like Jon loves a mature woman. It's all sort of tangled up in there. And, and for, we, we've talked about the daddy issues, the mommy issues, uh, a world, uh, the worlds that we cover are usually all tangled up in daddy issues. So mommy issues eventually. And what Vanessa said, we have spent our summer on mommy issues. It's true. Boy, incest is abounding. Um, but I think what's, what's, yeah, it's true. Cape gear, baby. Um, I think what's interesting is that, um, uh, what Vanessa said on the official podcast is that they had written the pilot script before they had written this episode. Yeah. And so, and she was sort of, you know, as, as a mom, she was sort of like, you know, it's not just the, the dads who are deriving this kind of like pursuit of excellence narrative inside of the stories. And so seemingly her, the implication was that she was sort of the one who was like, there should be a mom, the mom should be central. And in fact, the mom is like more of the driving force here than not. So if you think about, did they, did they not go back and, because like Bernadette's not in the pilot. And if you watch the pilot, you're like, oh, this is John senior was the one driving this. Phone call to dad. But so this idea that like two episodes later. They're like, oh, actually, it's the mom, but she's not. in the the pilot i just think that's interesting yeah well like i'm part of what we see in this episode of course is not only the way that bernadette is driving things for john jr but also for jr also for john senior um yeah on the on the the character design front the idea i love that observation the idea that for liana for a guardian who it's one of the many ways that the episode shows us um sometimes we hear characters actively say this out loud sometimes it's through like a visual rendering like this that the guardians have no fucking idea what life on earth is actually like race that's my moment of my favorite when she was like by black you mean brown skin or whatever and it's just like a real i don't see race moment yeah and the idea which is literally from the comics where the guardians are like how's like this this black guy can't be green lantern and the guardians of the comics are like we have no idea what life on earth is like and the guardians are like this this black guy can't be green lantern and the guardians are like we have no time for your petty bigotries but it's just like really like we don't acknowledge the realities of how this would be different right exactly right and you know the fact that she thinks that like uh the taking the form assuming the avatar of an unassuming old and white lady would be like very welcoming to everyone is such a uh deliberate yeah uh mistake for her to make but we do get some lore you know we talked a little bit about the guardians of the universe last pod we get a little bit more lore here from the conversation that liana and john share ruling body of the cosmos founder of the lanterns blue 12 of them though one recently died and john's like why are you suddenly interviewing candidates the ring chooses people that's how it works because of your condolences condolences on the dead guardian yeah the ring chose sinestro that did not work out very well for us this is one of the things that is kind of peppered throughout the episode is the guardians mistrust of hal who was trained by sinestro and sinestro took down a guardian this is an episode that is very much oriented around the idea of what is instilled and ingrained in you by the people who the guardians would say program you john would say raise you how was sinestro might say train you so the guardians are fearing what aspects of sinestro's worldview how might carry and so it is interesting to me that they're like on the one hand they're well don't you think it's like they almost know he won't well they're really excited to have john be the you know by the end of this interview john be the one to take the ring from hal it's so interesting okay so like if you think about superheroes superheroes who have powers uh granted you know and like if you comp to like superman yeah the kryptonite is is a weakness for him but in general like nobody can other than a villain wielding kryptonite can't like turn off his power right or like uh you know wonder woman or or these other dc figures but this is a distinctive kind of superhero not unique but distinctive in terms of like it is granted to you and there's such a leash on it yeah there's such a leash on this power it's a ring we've given you and a lander and it's a ring we've given you and it's a ring we've given you and it's a we've given you and if you don't have the lantern you can't do this and if you don't have the rings you can't do this and we at this point in their juncture we are deciding we want to decide right who gets that and who doesn't and that is such a a different power set than a lot of and what a lot of other heroes are dealing with and so but it's interesting that they're like so mealy-mouthed about it they're not willing to kill hal themselves or you know they could definitely subdue hal and the ring off his finger themselves they're wanting john to do it for them which i think is really interesting because they're like we've put a we put a cap and a leash on this power but we're not willing to make it so clear that we put a capital leash on it we're going to use you as the tool in order to enact that plan you know i i think that a couple things one um there are a couple moments in this episode from leona herself and then we hear this from bernadette shared with john jr on the heels of the conversation that bernadette has with leona this idea of the limits of the system you know it's presented from leona's the limitations of the system and then positioned from bernadette as some bullshit about the limits of the system right so the idea of this kind of like how true is that and how farcical is that how much is that idea of like oh the limits of the system that uh uh cap what we can do or what we can see or what we can understand how what kind of positive impact we can have how much uh we can shield people that itself is a shield for the guardians they've created this exactly and then this is a episode they don't want to do that to a guardian and have all the other guardians in in the core be like the lanterns sorry or the lanterns in the core be like you know right they want to be able to like maintain some plausible deniability and distance but it's also about wielding from their perspective a tool not only that can do that thing for them but then that they can what is this episode across character sets right choice and control how much agency do you have in your own life and how much is somebody else seeking to direct you and move you along some sort of tram line yeah the guardians are certainly yeah the path the guardians are certainly trying to do that yeah um and then i was thinking back on that front too to like what we've heard hal say about you know and there's a version of this in the the lanterns movie as well like the ring was never supposed to come to earth the backwater to them and so then there's this pivot point in part because the ring is here and how does have it and i've been sort of did crash here and we got that little juicy nugget about you know the oh theory fodder in episode two about what why in the manhunter right okay so we still have a lot of questions about that but like what is the guardians interest in earth really like and what does that look like in full and so what do they need to from their perspective as space cop bosses seeking to control what other aspects of the board do they need their earthly lantern to do for them like we don't we have enough reason to ask those questions now but we don't have all of the answers yet yeah it's very interesting it's interesting when you when you go back to the origin of the guardians and the comics and it's about you know these people who who took a number of different paths there's like because the guardians have have styled themselves the guardians they're the ones who they're the of their race the people who sell themselves the controllers and they were just like a bit more overt with uh what they were interested in but the guardians who who believe that the best way to rule is by renouncing emotion basically they're vulcans right but this goes back to what i was talking about with the jedi council which is like when you try to introduce humans into like messy human emotion into a system that's bad actually not just fear but all emotions bad yeah but the the rings themselves are powered by various emotions it's it's it's it's very intriguing um also the jedi comp that i made a couple episodes ago um i i hadn't realized that this was something that like people talk about a lot when they talk about the lanterns because they talk about like the the sort of like master apprentice dynamic that is intrinsic to lantern lore um and you know like the coaching tree that you just uh explained could be like qui-gon to obi-wan to anakin blah blah and then also some hal storyline uh the the anakin comp and some of the hal storyline stuff has been has been something people have been talking about for a long time but i just think that like um i don't know i think this this emotional component is so interesting and the way that laura linney is playing this liana as someone who's like chirpy and perky but like i don't understand your human emotions yeah i don't understand deliberate pause positioning at like the tilt of the head or like look of the eye very bird chirpy but we like we don't understand like when when bernadette's like hey i don't know no when she shows up and she's like here's this diamond yeah um so what we've heard is that yeah comedy people in the dead of night yeah was emotionally tumultuous for them have a tough time with that weird yeah diamond you know and so it's just sort of like we we are ill-equipped to handle right how human emotional uh realities kind of like go hand in hand with our cool little ring system that we have in place on the on the jedi confront and as you know my well my favorite thing to talk about on on podcasts over the last decade has probably been the you know it's just tits and dragons and mcshane quote about thrones and direwolves my second favorite thing has probably been the um uh maddening rigidity of the jedi order on the front and so the other the other the other comp that's really present in this episode on that front is like you know the conversation about um why not marcus and aaron oh they're too old they're stealing the babies they're you gotta get you gotta steal the baby your little jedi to the temple when they're newborns when they're infants by the time anakin's eight by the time luke is 19 it's a fucking wrap that was fascinating marcus is like i don't know i don't know i don't The discussion about conditioning. Yeah, Marcus is like, actually, i don't want to have apple shot off my head thanks so much man no thank you the birthday present scene my god oh my god um on the what are the guardians afraid of front you know if we think about the the stitching where the episodes have broken so far you know we go back to where we ended episode two i mean it's worrying right how has not only you know we hurt we we we have the conversation between carrie and how on the hospital sequence you know you talk about him in your sleep right i don't talk about it what you do in your sleep about sinestro but then the episode ends with how seeking him out and sinestro you've been tracking the the wedges right the characters across the season have sought to put between john and how and so we leave hal at the end of episode two basically in a position where sinestro the mentor who the guardians are like we're afraid of what that guy might have said to how taught how conditioned into how and we have literally just come off an episode that ends with sinestro being like well if there is a why don't you why don't you tell me about john stewart it's like i'm sure that's the second biggest threat threat let's talk about the first biggest threat john stewart incredibly worrying yeah incredibly i worry i also think to go back to that email that we got from uh our listener taylor again he he enumerated a bunch of things that we don't need to go into all the time but i think it's a really good thing to do that we're going to go into some of them but like the knowledge this is this is from his email the knowledge that the guardians aren't happy with how hal has been conducting himself and john is a replacement on a trainee this quote did you tell the guardians about this portion is the stickiest and most interesting of all to me all the more reason added this week for john to resent and distress hal and he still made the decision to tell him about his meeting with the aliens the manhunter and their time limit is it a play is his character truly just that upright you know like etc etc so yeah like the fact that you find that john is here as a some almost like sleeper agent oh yeah to do a coup my favorite phrase it really is we don't say it enough but we say more than most people we do um i was sort of like yeah to do a coup as a sleeper agent and he still tells how i know it gives me a lot of hope yeah a lot of these two crazy kids will certainly like work past all the wedges and there are some lines in this episode that i'm excited to talk about as we get to them in the context of the scenes where something that john says that's an insight into his worldview you're like oh could we get could we flip that in terms of where he and hal are together okay um leona's like most of the candidates ask why me and john's like no i know i know exactly why me and then we go to the flashbacks the ring choosing john senior we cut to little little baby john in the crib and the room filling with green light and we watch this this was an interesting choice we watch it on john's face we hear it we hear are you afraid yes yes but we don't actually see it we're seeing it play out on john's face to kind of cement this idea of the connection between the generations and the impact it will have on him you had wondered previously joe whether hal actually answered the question like no did this what what impact did this have does this cement the idea that if john senior and all of these other candidates who we hear had the uh had the option of saying we're presented with the test and failed the word i don't see it now but you did write it the word you use in the notes about this is like we can glean yes et cetera et cetera glean yeah i am resistant to gleaning tell me uh i find hal a really unreliable narrator in general and so i i hear what you're saying i think that's what i'm asking every reason does this does this what we learned what we saw here mean we don't have to rely on hal's narration does it take us to the point of being able to say we've witnessed the test i still want to see it i still want to see it i just like i'm sure i'm wrong but like i still just want i just feel like we're out of candidates we're tired we've been around the world we're so tired this guy said he was afraid to you we have no choice i think where i am with it still is that he said no i'm not afraid but he's lying to himself maybe or the fact that he has suppressed and and pushed aside everything in his life that would allow him to feel fear is a is a bad thing what if lament the ring comes to him yeah and he's like oh are you afraid right and he's like drunk and hung over he did say nine beers yeah and he's just sort of like and so he doesn't say like yes or no and they're like what's what's that you know like this could be listen you might be onto something we we have perhaps been primed for this by hal's own story about abin sir he's like never knew if he said good luck or ah fuck i mean yeah so it could have been a drunken mumble instead of a like the whole lantern season one is just going to be a version of viserys is like it's a telephone house it's a game of telephone he was talking about i like it on the ring didn't quite and the ring was tired i was like everyone all these humans are afraid this one at least is just mumbling so we'll go with it great stuff you know what i like i like you that we so we don't know was john senior first we don't know that but what we do know is that hal was last yeah all these other people some of those other candidates could have been before john senior john senior could have been first and then there were how many allegiance between john senior and hal um we go from bernadette coming back into the room after checking on uh the other kids and seeing john senior on the floor deeply distressed by what has unfolded and then we cut to cowering quivering quivering the yellow drenched lantern's logo yeah on the on the sort of how we see it play out front yeah um something that stephen williams said in the official podcast is that he was like very invested in point of view when it came to this episode so in terms of like making sure that this is so anchored in john's john jr's pov even though there are some scenes without him so it's not like yeah it's like very strictly that but i think in terms of framing he was always trying to frame it uh if john was in the scene the scene was from his point of view even if he's a little even if he's a baby yeah uh this encounter understandably so major source of trauma for john senior he shoots the tv this is a another hal jordan though he has not yet revealed that his name is hal jordan he's still wearing the mask he hasn't shown his face uh a news anchor is describing the latest heroics another city saved by the hero known as green lantern and he shares a statement from hal about being chosen about being fearless and he's wearing the mask he's got yeah he's hiding and hiding his face and his name still at this point so we're back before you know this is the the decade before the 60 minutes interview and i love this that like this idea that john senior is not just coping with the trauma uh living with the trauma of this experience the ring the green bubble pulling him out of bed and asking him are you afraid someone else live the life this guy that he's not living the person who was chosen after him he should get off social media comparison is a thief of joy john senior um you know i agree as i as my as my screen time mounts and my brain rot no you can't do that to yourself but also but also in terms of like to go back to where we met john in episode one watching hal yes this idea that that goes back that makes me think again of that idea we were just talking about which in terms of like the bronze age creators comic creators being like the the people who grew up with so like john stewart jr is the first generation to grow up with the green lantern on earth and and there is this resentment that comes from all the ways in which hal has screwed him and his family over but there's also i mean this is a hero this is a superhero that he watched on tv and so how is there not also right that hero worship that goes with and you know we we heard this from macon so tough source but you know one of the points that he made at the at the on the ranch in episode one was like your emergence as green lantern kind of buried the lead this was also the moment in this slice of comics canon of oh there's first contact a whole vast universe out there i was i was really thinking of contact the film contact when bernadette was at the the the home the home uh homemade radio trying to reach out fascinating stuff speaking of bernadette and you're like where's matthew mcconnell i mean i'm always asking that um as you know that's not my favorite movie uh i love contact i know you do there are some great things in it not my favorite should have sent a poet incredible okay now i'm willing to love it okay that changed my mind great um bernadette the other thing that we see here it's not just the trauma the pain the fear doubt bernadette and we learned this is we'll see it later when john is um at alpac with general chavez uh you know i know he had some he had some struggles nobody believes would you john senior and adam was like if you saw a superhero if you saw a superhero kyle chandler on tv and adam's like you know that could have been me that could have been me um that and you're like what are you talking about you're like he's like you were in the other room getting a snack this part and this green light came i would be inclined to believe a green bubble came and pulled me out of bed and i'm kind of like i have let me tell you this i don't mind i don't mind sharing this I often ask myself, would you be prepared in real time to accept something supernatural? But I have lived my life waiting and hoping for just such a moment. I want magic to be real. I want, you know, this is what I want. I'm refusing the call. I'd tell you this right now. That just means you're going to be the reluctant hero who ultimately saves the day. One would hope, but John Sr. does not get that second chance on the hero's journey. I mean, if a green bubble pulls me out of bed and asks me if I'm afraid, I'm like. Yeah, I'm pissing myself right now. I'm very afraid. Can I have like an outfit change? Sure. Our listener, signed it M. Kitson, wrote in to say, compared John Sr.'s sort of shame, I guess, around this to World War II soldiers who were denied active service. I mean, you think of Steve Rogers, if you prefer. But like, you know. These people who like wanted to go fight and were denied. I was also thinking of World War I soldiers and the white feathers. You know, during World War I, this idea that like someone could walk. If you were a young, seemingly healthy man and you were not off fighting the war, someone would walk up to you and hand you a white feather as in like you're a coward, you're a chicken, you're not fighting. So this like this fog of shame around not being called to serve. For a soldier in general, for this guy. But yeah, like what that could do to you in terms of psychological. To your point, like, of course, him having a drinking problem and shooting the television is a PTSD response to what has happened to him. I'm just saying, I do think there was like a kernel of instability that was already there. Yeah, I think that, you know, Bernadette is like taking the kids. We're going to school. Be back when we're gone. We see the tears in John Sr.'s eyes. And I really like the fact that this episode through John Sr. is so interested in showing us. And then because we know the other candidates, we wonder and we hear like from Leanna, how many lives have been destroyed by this moment? Like the decision to show us what it's like. So many superhero stories about what it's like to be chosen, right? To acquire powers. To really linger in what it's like to have had the chance but then not be the one. Interesting. Which is really fascinating to me. And I was thinking like often, there are versions of that, certainly. Should we write a story about some poor knight who couldn't pull the sword out of the stone? That would be wonderful. What's that going to do to him for the rest of his life? This probably exists. Will it be a romantic? Obviously. It's all a metaphor. You can pull that sword out of somewhere else if you know what I mean. Big metaphor, guys. I don't know. I was thinking too, like sometimes the, oh, I got past this. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I made an overture. It's like often the version of that story of like, what do you carry with you? What does your life look like if you didn't get to do the thing you wanted? It's like it's a villain story. Yeah. Like Killian or something like that. Like this is so not that with. Is it not? He's shooting apples off of his son's head. I don't know. No, again, we have some notes. We have some notes. But to your empathy muscle point, it's it's it's not quite Killian. Yes. Yeah. And certainly not. And I think also this was the other thing I want to do in this in this John Sr. shooting the TV moment is that Bernadette understandably says to him here, get out. And you're scaring me. Yeah. Fear. Notable not only because we're always tracking when characters because it is a very human thing to do exhibit fear and feel fear. But because Bernadette. Bernadette will say to Liana in short order, I don't do scared. And we will we will know because we have just seen that that's not true. So that kind of feeds into this overall thesis and assessment of how much of this shows this Lantern's adaptation version of the fear versus will, et cetera, is about. And we will get the courage quote at the end, et cetera, is about trying to process and then push through your fear. And how much is not allowing yourself to feel fear when that is a very human thing in the first place. Speaking of Bernadette makes a bargain, makes a bargain with the Guardians. This is where Liana shows up. Dormammu, I've come to bargain. Oh, man. Love that. Love that. I miss Dormammu. I do. It's just one of my favorite. MC moment. It's incredible. Over and over and over and over again. Just. Cumberbatch is a horrible accent. Just like it's being tested again and again and again. Dormammu. No, no. It's absolutely flawless. I love it. Bernadette has John with her taking out the trash and Liana shows up in the driveway. Asks to see Sergeant Stewart. He's not home. Offers a diamond and offers some regrets. We have reports that many of the candidates considered for the role of Green Lantern have experienced emotional turmoil. And this is where Bernadette's like, prove it. You look. Just like some unfortunate white lady to me. I mean, unfortunate rough. Honestly, Laura Linney looks amazing. But also, Laura Linney's face. Yeah. Liana's face. When she says, prove it. Yeah. This like, excuse me? This like, affront. But then she does. She does. No, but this affront of like, prove it? Yeah. But isn't that like the whole thing that John has to do? Like, everyone has to prove it to the Guardians. But the Guardians are like. Like, prove it to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she does it. But she's like, excuse me. Yeah. What did you think about not. So this is the I don't get upset, show me moment. But what did you think about not seeing the Guardians face? We get this from. We get to see. We linger on Bernadette's face watching this transformation. And we are behind Liana's. Right. She is stretching. But does that feel like we're building, we're biding our time to see the Guardians in full? Or more like we just didn't need to show maybe a bad effect? I just don't think they're going to show it to us. Yeah. OK. Fair enough. And I think that's fine. You know? So Bernadette invites Liana in for coffee. And they discuss what happened to John Sr. She says, my family's falling apart. And this is where we get that. The system is imperfect line from Liana. This like real kind of cold, detached, distant bureaucracy. This idea that everyone is just a cog in our machine and a tool. It's not your life and your family that you were telling me is destroyed. Even though I'm going to kind of go through the farce of pretending. That's why I'm here. To offer you a giant diamond. And that'll make it all OK. It's the system. And we need the system to in order to be able to exert the control that we seek to maintain. And then Bernadette asked, do you know the difference in race on Earth? Do you understand how unfair it is to ask a Black man in America if he's afraid? We're terrified daily of persecution and still show up. Sometimes better than everyone around us. Did you know that? I did not. Even in space. Y'all don't consider us. So Hal's privilege in even saying. Right. He's not afraid. White guy privilege. Right. Yeah. White guy privilege in, you know. What is the comp for where he lives? Is it San Diego? Is it San Francisco? I think it's supposed to be San Francisco. Oh, yeah. OK. San Francisco white guy versus Detroit black man. Like different, different vibes. Yes. And then the fact that the different paths to the ring that we've been talking about since the beginning of the season. This series connect to this different core fundamental experience. Fascinating. So they strike a bargain here. Baby John Liana says. It's very fairytale. Mm hmm. Like very Rapunzel or like or the fairies in general or like whatever is like I've laid a claim to your baby. Yeah. I mean, it's an exchange. Yeah. For this diamond. Yeah. It's not quite the exchange, but kind of. And also like I. Oh, I. Yeah. Do you have my word? Take me the person who person the guardian who's only impact on your life so far is that as you just told me, I've destroyed your husband and your family. Take me my take me my word. The qualities that the rings on John Senior, Liana says, are in John Junior. And so are Bernadette's qualities. Formidable. I love that. She calls her. I would like someone in the world to describe me as formidable at one point in my life. Just putting that out there in the world as an intention. Not you. It doesn't count if you ask for it, but like. I'm going to do it. No, it doesn't count if I say I want someone to call me formidable. I'm going to do it when it is authentic. OK. And real. And it will be all the time because I constantly think about how formidable you are. You are a formidable person. Me? Hardly. God. Hardly. If you scared. Bernadette asks. He'll fail. Well, if I raise him to be fearless, that'll warrant our attention. And then in 2016. John tells Liana, this is when he's like, do you know what happened after this? Are you the one who came here? Do you know what happened after this? He's like that diamond. Yeah. Not great. And then she asked John, did you become a Marine because your dad was one? This is part of like that kind of episode long through line of asking questions about his relationship to various members of his family. And he says, yeah, it was part of the path to put him right here in this conversation across from a guard. In in pursuit of the ring. And so this question of. So we've discussed a lot already today. Control. Like what choice did. Does John have it all in any of this? What, like, agency does John have in his own life? Obviously, when he's young, the answer is zero, right? The path is set for him, and he is told to walk down it. And then the moments throughout the episode where he is presented with some choice and will exert some agency. I actually don't like cheeseburgers. No, not dad. You. Sick. Yeah. Art school, et cetera. We, I think, feel a simultaneous. But even art school. His mom applied for him. We feel, I think, this simultaneous, like, John is taking more of a hand, but to what extent is that even possible if this is how it's gone? So Chris Mundy on Inside the Episode said, the thing we really wanted to play with was, if you've been given a dream your whole life, is it yours? Given a dream, really interesting idea to explore. Alison Hightower, baby. On the path front. Yes. I thought it was really interesting to think about the role of prophecy inside of Green Lantern stories that, like, when Jeff Johns took over the Green Lantern storyline in the book, in the books, in the comic books. And there was this Blackest Night prophecy that he sort of seeded very long, for a long time, into the Blackest Night sort of event. But, you know, in this telling of the story, it is sort of why Avancer dies. It is, like, a thing that, where he's trying to investigate into the Blackest Night prophecy, all this sort of stuff. Like, so this idea of prophecy, an event foretold, a path already laid. Yeah. Like, John is sitting there because he was told that he would be sitting there. That self-fulfilling prophecy of, like, you know. And his parents lie to him about a bunch of different things, including the birds. But they use that word, destiny. Destiny. Yeah. Destiny, but also just sort of, like, the job's yours. Yeah. Not, there's going to be another white guy walking out of the room right before you walk in. Not, like, you'll be one of several candidates. It's, the job is yours if you do all these things we say. And that's a sort of prophetic self-fulfilling prophecy scenario. As you know, I love a prophecy. I know. We're going to do a whole episode on it someday. That's a prophecy. Will it be self-fulfilling? Yeah. But it's going to be, that'll be, like, a month. Yeah. It's going to be great. Prophecy month. Can't fucking wait. Great. Isn't it always prophecy month here at the House of Arts? Yeah. It'll be after PaulaFam. That's coming. 2027. Prophecy month. 2027's next year. Yeah. Prophecy month. You ever think about that? You ever think, boy, it's 2026. How'd that happen? I got really excited. I saw a release date of a book I was really excited about. And it was January 2027. I was like, oh, that's so soon. Damn. We're like, we're just cycling back around. It is not ACOTAR 7. ACOTAR? I don't know why. I just can't say it. It's like you saying loader. I stand by loader. I won't. I know. I stand by it. I want to apologize. It's something that. I will never forget how appalled you were. And it was, like, really early in our partnership. But not as early as you would think. Like, I feel like it should have been something I said aloud to you within five minutes of us podcasting together. But. Was it Rings of Power season one? Had to be. Had to have been. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. And here we are, half a decade later. With season three. Standing strong. Now 2-1-0 time? That's right. All right. The Gray Wolf mission. So we flash to John meeting General Chavez at Outback. John is in full dress. He's like, you don't have, like, any just regular clothes in the car. He's like, what did you not, like, understand about incognito, my friend? We were having this here. So, yeah, an incredible moment. Just, and he's like, I ordered you a steak and a beer. And John's like, thank you. And then just pushes it aside. And he's like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's a lot of great little touches there. I've never been to an Outback Steakhouse. Is it good? What? That is exactly what you would think it would be. So last year. Yeah. The last two years, my friend and, my friends and I, three of us for our birthdays, we went to, like, Red Lobster. I'd never been to Red Lobster for the first time. What'd you think? Fine. Yeah. Olive Garden for the first time. Oh, man. Pretty not great. But it's about, like, you know, it's about the, the breads, the endless breadsticks. And I mean, I haven't been to any of these places since I was, like, a teenager. These, like, casual dining, is that what you would call it? Like, an Applebee's. I had been to an Applebee's before. But I'd never been to an Outback. Is that where the Bloomin' Onion's from? That's where the Bloomin' Onion's from. It is also where, I believe, the very famous meme, the two comments back-to-back. Can't remember the details, but it's, like, have you not seen this? I think this is Outback. It's a woman who posted, I don't even know if this is real. I see this meme resurface all the time. She posted, like, a one-star review. I believe for Outback. Because they forgot the Bloomin' Onion. And then she's, like, the next review is, like, my husband ate it on the drive home, but I couldn't figure out how to delete the review. I'm really sorry. It's just hysterical. And it ultimately ends up being, like, oh, my God, the Bloomin' Onion is so delicious. I haven't had a Bloomin' Onion since I was, like, 16. Man, this is a Wendy's. That's what that is. Yes, this is a Wendy's. But Applebee's, I mean, it's a survivor. The Bloomin' Onion, I should say. Yeah. I don't like onion rings. Has a roll. Has a roll to play in Buffy season six, I believe. Specifically the Outback Bloomin' Onion. The Bloomin' Onion. So when that happens, we should go to Outback. You don't have to have the Bloomin' Onion. You can have whatever you want. And I will have some Bloomin' Onion. Fantastic. For the first time, yeah. I'll get a Foster's. I'll get a steak. I'll take at least one strand from the Bloomin' Onion. One leaf of the onion? Yeah, exactly. A petal, I suppose. Yes, I will pluck a petal. Okay. She loves me not. The general praises John's kill record as a sniper and says he's patient. And this, of course, makes us think of the exchange with Zoe at the bar in episode one. I'm patient. No, you're not. And that smirk on John's face. So this idea of like. And he's like, mommy. Take me to the truck. Let's fuck. What's true for John the soldier that maybe isn't true for John the person? Is this. This was one of the things for us. Ooh, are we on a path toward John saying, I'm going to decide what I want to do. Love that. He opens the folder. Codename, Gray Wolf. This guy launders money. Again, shout out Ozark. And John's like, I don't care about the man. Tell me about the mission. This was another line where I was like, will the opposite prove true? I care about the man, not the mission. With John and Hal. Is that hopefully perhaps where we're heading? I just. I love those two together. I got to say, nine months in the bush, for a guy. Come on. That's where he was. Nine months in the bush, for a guy who launders money? Yeah. Something else is going on there with Gray Wolf. It's just the payoff. I mean, like, and they were like, it didn't have to take that long. And he was like, yes, it does. I got to eat the bugs and do the pushups, you know what I mean, and grow the beard. But like. Oh, question for you about this. Yeah, would I eat a bug? Maybe because food is on the mind. I know you would. I know you would eat a bug. I would eat a bug. Yeah. I have eaten bugs. Yeah, some crickets. Some crickets and stuff. I've had a cricket to life. Yeah, I've had spiced crickets. But the conversation elsewhere in the episode about like, you know, all that time eating bugs and berries, it's like, well, you're a vegetarian anyway. Do bugs not count as. Bugs, of course, count. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. I bumped on the same thing. We're so insane. I wonder if there's like a. We're so in tune. Because, you know, like pescatarians. Of course. Like, you know, they eat fish. Arthropod? That's what a bug is, right? If you say so. So, arthropod. You know, like I eat bugs. Yeah. It's the only kind of meat I would eat. Just asking questions. Could be. Of the scientific community. Hobbitsanddragonspeople.com. Could be. Could be. Oh, God. So, the mission is a waiting game. Yeah. John is, of course, prepared for this because his entire life has been a waiting game, right? You're waiting for the thing that you. The goal is there. It's going to take a while. Do you wish they had gotten Jason Bateman to play the Gray Wolf? Or Julia Garner? Always. Yeah. Always. I really quite enjoyed Ozark. I didn't. Which was the Tom Pelfrey season? Three? Three. That was great. Pelfrey was great on Ozark. That was just unbelievable. But I got really burned out on that show. I know you did. Yeah. I know you did. But Pelfrey, phenomenal. Unbelievable. John asks, how many have been sent before him? And this was another quick little moment, but I really liked it because it's a version of what we talked about with Hal in episode two where we got to see him out in the field in Rushville doing the true detective detecting. And seeing how John operates on a mission, right? The fact that he is assessing the context clues, that he is making a deduction very quickly, that he's observant, that he's smart, he's sharp. Give me nine months and I'll consider taking the shot. Oh, and that was when Gray Wolf finally showed up. Yeah. It's like, here we go. But then a couple other dudes were in the way for a second. Yeah. And then Hal. The drapes were closed. Yeah. And then Hal came in fresh off of a couple cold ones at the titty bar. Amazing stuff. So the general says. The foster's just sloshing around inside of him. Man. You had a foster's recently? I've never had a foster's. Ever. I've had one, but it's been a minute. We'll get it. We will. All right. Put it out back on the books. Okay. You want to wait? You want to wait for the Buffy moment? You don't want to just do that? All right. Is there a five-year-old? No? No? You don't think? Oh, man. General's like, you'll have a panic button, right? So it'll be different this time. Panic button for. extraction and job. John says, I don't do panic, sir. Trained not to fear. That's not true. At least to navigate that fear. But people panic. Yeah. They feel panic. And then they mention his dad. Speaking of John Sr., Bernadette and John Sr. form a plan here. So Bernadette tells John Sr. about her encounter with the Guardian, apologizes for not believing him. This is some bullshit about the imperfection of the system. But it could be John Jr. Yeah. John Sr. is like, our baby? I don't understand. And then she says, they can't raise three boys to believe that no matter how good they are, they'll get looked over. Vanessa Bain and Kelly on the official pod said, we understand that story of what it means to have to be excellent in a world that's not made to recognize your excellence. Bernadette says, we didn't break every stereotype and face down every fear for you to be penalized because you're stupid. You're scared to leave the people that you love. Now, that specifically. For you to be penalized because you're scared to leave the people that you love. Very important line, right? On the one hand, we have the Hal of it all, Carrie, saying in episode one to John of how, you know, if you care about people, you're scared of losing them. He's not fearless. He's lonely. So this idea of loneliness, this is going to be part of the discussion. He doesn't even have a toilet brush. That place was just impeccable. Impeccable. But then also, for Bernadette to say here to John Sr., the fact that you don't want your family to be without you and you don't want to be without your family is not a bad thing. That's not something we should frame as failure. But then in the training with John, it's you can't worry about your brothers. Yeah. Only worry about yourself. There's a tragedy to that, right? To what is sacrifice and compromise. And compromise in pursuit of this goal. I think it's so interesting because it just feels like fear soup all the way down, right? Because it's like the guardians are enacting this plan, Operation Get a Lantern to Kill a Lantern plan, because of their fear, right? And then when Bernadette and John have this conversation, they're talking, you know, she's talking about like sort of inside of this episode, she talks about like, you know, I became a teacher. Like we sort of escaped these certain stereotypes. We don't want ourselves. We don't want our sons to feel like there is no way for, you know, something that Vanessa said in the official podcast. She's like, they could have done it with academics instead of shooting apples off of their son's head. But like that they didn't, that they were afraid, basically, of like what their son's lives would be if they didn't push them really hard. I mean, mostly one son, but like, you know, what their lives would be if they didn't push them very hard. And so, again, it's like the guardian's fear and the steward's fear. And it's just sort of this like, you know, fear miasma. And from this, John Stewart. Is supposed to rise fearless or at least with a with a great command of fear. And I just don't think that's the environment in which one can do that. Yeah. I mean, I think the idea that it is. So the the this is that he's going to hate us. So be it. And we condition him. So he's used to fear conversation about how the other two boys are older. But John can be forged in the fearless fires from from minute one. Right. This is that exchange. And, you know, the the underbelly like there's the. The idea that there's something in wanting their son to be able to live without fear that is beautiful. Right. To to the idea that you could create a life for your child where he did not have to feel the things that you have felt. Right. There's there's that part of it. And then, of course, the underbelly of it that. Fear is. Bad or shameful, which, again, part of. Why I'm fascinated in this conversation is that Bernadette is saying the opposite of that to John Senior. But then they lose that and have to work their way back to it in subsequent conversations between Bernadette and John Junior. You know, the idea that you can learn to conquer your fear. But that like fear can't be that that's empowering. But the idea that fear has no place in your life is like. Unreasonable and inhuman. It creates fear of a different sort. Right. About like, can anybody possibly expect to live up to that? And then the question of like, you know, what level of on the he's going to hate us. So be it front. You know, what level of with the we'll build toward the I want to crayons for my birthday like moment shortly. You know, this this question of what other joy in life and self-discovery. Yeah. What exploration of your own passions and things you came to on your own. Do you do you not have room for them? Because it's always about training. This was where this is like, you know, that that Stephen Williams quote on the pod. You can take issue with their method methodology, but not their motivation. That framing of how to try to think about the real complexity of this of the origin of this, this horrible thing that happened. Right. That kind of led to this. And then the goal. But what does it look like in between those things? And what is. What is the cost? Can I read you this Bruce Tim quote about sort of how they decide to shape Jon Stewart inside of the animated series? Absolutely. It's fascinating. Again, so like, you know, all of these white men have been the ones sort of responsible for shaping who Jon Stewart has been leading up to Jeff Johns, Bruce Tim, Denny O'Neill, Neal Adams. So this is what he says. He says about why they chose Jon Stewart when they assembled the animated Justice League. They had a lot of options of who they could have put in there in terms of like Hal Jordan. Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, et cetera, et cetera. And they chose Jon Stewart. And he says, out of all the Green Lanterns we could have chosen, we all kind of liked the Jon Stewart character from the comics, especially the Jenny O'Neill, Neal Adams version. When they first introduced him, he was like the angry young black guy, you know, in 1969 or 70, even though that's not really relevant today. OK. Like the whole black power movement and everything. We still want to keep that kind of edge and attitude with him. And so just in banging around ideas of what to do with him, going back to the original idea of the Green Lantern Corps, where they're basically lensmen, they're space cops, they're space marines. We were like, OK, he's a military guy. So this is where like Jon Stewart's military version of that story, like from being an architect to being a marine and then both. Right. And then someone said Louis Gossett Jr. and an officer and a gentleman. And I said, yeah. And then I went, wait a minute, Samuel L. Jackson. And everyone went, yeah. So that's kind of who he is. He's real rugged. No nonsense. Barking orders kind of Green Lantern. We love him to pieces. We love him so much. He's like in almost every episode. I predict that you guys are going to love him. I just think that's fascinating that they're like, OK, this sort of like angry black man version of Jon Stewart, to use their words, that was initially introduced in the comics. And then this sort of like authoritative barking orders sort of military guy that they put in the animated series. And this is this is these idea their idea of like who this Jon Stewart should be. Phil Lamar talks about. Phil Lamar, who voiced Jon Stewart for the animated series, talks about how his voice for that role. Phil Lamar is a great voice actor. Lex Luthor, too, et cetera, et cetera. His voice for that role was based on the fact that Dennis Haysbert auditioned before him. And so he's like, I basically just went in and did a Dennis Haysbert impression because like he had this big like Jon Stewart has this big chest and he's like he needs this big booming voice. The fact that like now that. Other writers with a more. Complex idea of what it means to be a black man moving through the world in a position of authority, whatever the case may be, are like, we don't get to be angry. You know, I mean, from this other idea of like, you know, the the black power movement anger or the like sort of authoritative barking orders, military sort of version of him to like, actually, the reality is we're not allowed to be that. And we have to navigate in order to get through the world. We have to say we belong here. We're but we have to be better than everyone else. This is what his his parents are. We're instilling to him. But we're not allowed to be angry. How how gets to be messy and angry? We don't get to be that. And I just think that that's again, it's sort of like who's who's shaping the role based on who's lived experience in the world, you know? And I mean, the aspect of it, too, which is like, let's. Navigate every step of John's life from this moment forward to try to ensure that he can have a better experience than. We did, but also. Knowing that he's going to be assessed, right, that it's like, yeah, but and also drilling into his minds that like not only are we watching you, the birds are always watching the idea that you're always. And I think it's so insane to think about John in a positive way, to think about John creating this bird. Yeah. Even after he knows that birds are alive, alive, what he creates is this sort of like self policing. You know, this this thing that goes on this adventure with him, this construct that goes on this adventure to him with him to hell's home is a representation of like being watched, being policed, being judged, being reported on. And he made that for himself, even after he's been told, actually, a that was never true or be you're a candidate now. So it's not really like the case. He's like, I'm it's so internalized that it sort of springs forth. From him. Yeah, and then there's the question of, like, how much of that is something that you can't. Those elements of your experience and your history and your childhood, like those formative things, the lies, the truths, all of it, they're really hard to move beyond and you carry them with you. You know, the thing that Hal said about the bird was like, you created that from your subconscious. It must mean something. And we get to see to your point that it does. Is there an element there potentially of I get to like, this is my version of this thing now? Oh, you know, a more psychologically healthy. My parents told me that. And, you know, I'm like, well, we build from well, then the birds are liars into. And I thought it was interesting that the birds were, you know, when Hal flies off at the end and there's a there's a there's talks to it as if it's a bird right there. Still reporting. Yeah. John has a little conversation. And then, of course, as he's sitting, waiting for Liana to come back for the interview, putting him through the motions of this this test. And there's the bird on the on the windowsill, et cetera. I heard that. I think I think it was originally a tick tock audio, though. Maybe it goes. Then the answer is no, unless you sent it deeper into the lore. Well, I'm sure it made it over way over to reels at some point. All the birds died in 1986 due to Reagan killing them and replacing them with spies that are now watching us. The birds work for the bourgeoisie. You never heard that. This is a tick tock. Anyway, it's it's sparked. It's part of this whole like I watch a lot of my reels on silent and I read the captions. And then sometimes I'm like, I got to watch. I think about the birds work for the bourgeoisie a lot. But like it's I guess it sparked this like a whole whether it was serious or not movement of like like a Gen Z saying like birds were spies or birds aren't real. OK. Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes from this or it's related to this anyway. But yeah, oh, man, that's what I was thinking when she was like the birds are spies for the birds work for the bourgeoisie. And that tick tock influences what we mean when we talk about the perception of the moment that we bring to man. You haven't sent me a tick tock in a long time. I got to say, I don't go on to like three years. You used to send me all sorts of. Well, I deleted tick tock for like when the whole like thing happened. But then I read downloaded it once I realized that like we were on there. Yes. House of R and prestige. And I could like I don't have an account anymore, really. Yeah. So I'm not posting on there. Yeah. But you're consuming. I you're lurking. I really just look to see how our numbers are. You're watching like the birds. You're watching just like looking hard. The question is, are you reporting to the Guardians? Speaking of Liana. So throughout this episode, we're cutting to little glimpses of John's mission abroad with Gray Wolf. Here we see him. We see him. Make the jump. Then they are ideal conditions. The fried shoot, the sliced side, you know, the branch cutting aside the near drowning, et cetera. And then we're back in the 2016 interview and John and Liana is asking John about the dishonorable discharge. And she says that she's concerned about disobedience. That's the word she uses. And he says it wasn't about disobedience. I I failed to complete the mission. And she wants to know why. And it will prove to be. Do you feel like she already knows? And she just wants to like needle him so that he will remember how resentful of how he is. Another wedge between John and Hal. The birds already told her. Yes. And also, of course, it is it. The birds have told her it is the test. Right. Like, is he going to because she says a couple versions throughout this episode of, well, I'm going to need the uncomfortable truth, whether or not you want to share it. Like part of the interview process, part of the assessment is, are you going to do the thing you don't want to do? Are you loyal to me? Not loyal to the chain of command, but loyal to me. Right. Yeah. Interesting, too, to think, I guess, about the like long ago. Promise the bargain between. Bernadette and Liana and the question of like. OK, what if this Sinestro thing had not happened? Would the guardians would Liana have ever followed through on this at all, or is it only. Only because she and they need someone to challenge Hal now that any of this is happening. That's interesting, because it wasn't like a promise wasn't really made. Just like the way that. Take my word for it. I'll know. She's like, oh, it would be interesting to us. Right. Right. Right. That would burn our attention. Yeah. Burn our attention. But Bernadette's like, you got the job if you let us shoot apples off your head, you know. Yeah. And walk home alone at night. Do you think there were other bargains made similarly? Other children being. No. Who sent down the strapping young man who was in the office before? Was he another? You think he was a plant? I don't know. You think he's a bird made human form? Yeah. Could be Barnel. Barnel cursed to live in human form. So she asked John, what do you know about Sinestro? And then what do you think of Hal? Who's asking those questions back to back? You must think something. He was chosen instead of your father. My dad served this country honorably. He respects anyone whose job it is to protect people. He taught me to do the same. Sinestro was Jordan's teacher, a father figure. He still harbors deep affection for his mentor. It's quite troubling. It's human, John says. We love the people that raise us, even if they're crazy. Aaron Pierre on the inside of the episode said you engage with that trauma in a way where you make it. Something that uplifted you. I thought that was a really, really thoughtful, relatable, thoughtful framing. John's respect for Hal's station, despite all of it. Something that he is not only saying here, but we have seen in action. The idea that John can relate to Hal in some way through their experience with flawed mentors. Interesting to think about. And then, you know, we talked about this in the first episode. We talked about this in the first episode. Because Hal positions it on the 60 Minutes interview. It's like, once you've lost your father, there's nothing to fear. And we're like, oh, boy, you'd probably be just terrified all the time. You know, I glean from that. What do you glean? Unreliable. Unreliable. The reminder here in this conversation about Sinestro, this is an episode about what the presence of John's parents meant in his life. And we are reminded that Hal did not have, Hal lost his dad when he was a kid. Sinestro swoops in later, but still. We can glean and sort of manipulates him. But like, the kinds of loss they suffer, right? Because, you know, this is what the lovely Laura Linney Liana says later, right? Where she was like, you know, you'll be isolated, you'll be separated from them. And he was like, yeah, I already was, though. So, like, the idea that, like, Hal lost his dad, his dad died, Hal lost his dad. But John lost his parents, too. I grew up missing them. It was like a devastating line. Heartbreaking. You know, they didn't die, but he didn't have parents. He had coaches. You know? Yeah. His brothers had parents. He had coaches. And that's just its own kind of loss. Yeah, absolutely. John learns his path. Fifth birthday. Fifth. Five. Five years old. A gun. A gun. You gotta wait at least until they're six before you give them a gun. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Green Lantern suit. Their little thingies can't. Full-on rifle. I'm not on guns. Just in case that's not clear. This was obviously shocking, right? Wait, I asked for crayons. Your father and I think five is old enough to know about your destiny. They tell the bird lie. Five is old enough to know about your destiny. It's just so charged and so loaded here. His brothers, I thought this was interesting, too. Not just their reaction, but the fact that they say, you choose him, right? So he is chosen. Yeah, in a different way. But in a way that has never helped him. Yeah. And then this is where Bernadette says he can't worry about your brothers, which was obviously quite sad. Quite, quite, quite sad. And the loneliness. You know, thinking across the character set about the loneliness and how that manifests and what sparked it. And all they needed was a gal in Rushville. Be she a hot granny or. Or a cool sheriff. Also hot. You can. Well, yeah. Hot and cool at the same time. They're all hot. Rushville. Can cure what ails you. A lot of hot women. Rushville real place? Yeah. It is. I learned. Lost a football game. In the present, Liana asked Sean, why did you choose to be a sniper? And we were watching him in the past and kind of tandem with the ceiling, the wound with the gunpowder, etc. And she asks, you know, Liana, not subtle. As John points out, right? Do you like the distance? He's like, is that supposed to be a metaphor, which made me laugh. He does say, like, I like being alone. I don't get distracted. So John's version of detachment, isolation, loneliness, the absence of those bonds. She asks if he resents his parents for the rigor. Rigor of his training. And he says, I can't resist. I can't resist. I can't resist. I can't really explain family to someone who doesn't have one. But rigorous kind of comes with the territory. So this is like one of the many moments in the episode where we see Liana A, if not full, outright embrace, acceptance, forgiveness for everything that his parents ever did, that John is in a place of love with his parents. And to some extent, at least in this episode, attempting to justify to other people, to himself maybe, how this all went. But that question of did you even want to be a sniper, just all of the ways that we're encouraged to think what choices did John really make for himself and why, what was a part of the path, and why all of it was a part of the path. The shooting lessons, we cut back to the past here and see what that rifle's for. So initially, shooting apples. John Jr. and John Sr. are shooting apples for target practice. And then Bernadette comes out, laments the lack of progress on the satellite because she wants to communicate with the Guardians. And John Sr. is like, we're. We're out of, like, the diamond money ran out. We don't have enough parts. That was interesting. And John has put the apple on his head and calls out to them, hey, like William Tell. It's cultured. A little folklore here? Yeah, cultured. Very interesting. This is obviously astonishing to see here. John asks his dad to shoot the apple. And Bernadette sanctions it. Wants to see if John is afraid. Tells John Sr. fear is contagious and says. That's such a good. This is what it takes for both of you. Well, that is such a good thing to think about, the idea of contagious fear. Again, I think about the fear soup that John grew up in. But, like, you know, if we think about, like, Hal going to visit Sinestro. Yeah. And this. This idea of fear as a contagion. Fear is something you can be infected with. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. A little bit of a shake from John Sr. here as he points a rifle at his child and prepares to shoot an apple off his head. But he pulls the trigger. Big flinch here from Bernadette. And then the cheeseburger reward. And in 2016, then, Liana asks if John loves his parents. And he smiles and he says, of course. And he owes them everything. And he will repay them by becoming a lantern. We get a few more gray wolf flashes. John kind of building his. His bug nest. Sniper nest. Growing the beard. Smorgasbug. No. You're still workshopping it. We'll get there by the end. Maybe. And in the past, John's family is driving through town at night in a van. And John's brothers are mocking him for not knowing the lyrics, the outcast lyrics. Yeah. For not being black enough, they say. They say that he's afraid. Of their parents. This was an interesting moment. The idea of, like, swapping fears, right? Fear of other things being exchanged for the fear of letting down his parents. Like, they're saying, you can't be afraid. We have to condition fear out of you. And then the thing he comes to fear is not being good enough for them. I thought it was interesting that, like, so this idea of John being trained not only to not fear and all this other stuff like that, but, you know, the way his brothers are making fun of him, is, like, basically you sound like a white guy. Yeah. Right? Yes. And I was just thinking about how when we were at Comic-Con and the Green Lantern panel happened and Aaron Pierre opens his mouth and this beautiful British accent comes out and, like, the way that, like, Charles and Van were reacting to that where they were, like, it's always a British man in one of these roles, you know? And so it's just sort of, like, this idea of John Stewart as, like, someone who has been bred to be desirable, not just for, like, the fear and his. his military prowess and stuff like that, but this, like, sort of white-passing language that he uses. His brothers go from mocking him to feeling quite scared in a hurry here because his parents stop the van and they say, get out. You're going to walk home alone. Horrible. Deeply, deeply dismaying. And John returns home to find his mother sitting in his room on the edge of the bed, his bed, waiting for him. Clearly terrified, right? Like, what? Like, what if he doesn't. She was like, oh, is that the move? I'm not sure. Make it home. And then when he arrives, she says, I saved you a pork chop, and then leaves, right? There's no, like, embrace or comfort. But she doesn't want him to see how. Yes. shaken she is by her own moves. And then. Because I don't know if you know this, but fear is contagious. It is indeed. He collapses onto the bed and just sobs. Yeah. This was absolutely heartbreaking. And Liana's asking about the stakeout still. Why didn't you push the panic button and then kind of connecting these things across time? Your training must have made you lonely, right? That isolation, Liana says, appears to be in direct opposition to your programming. And John says, humans aren't programmed. We're raised. This is what I mean about the episode just, like, very often saying the thing. And they try to lampshade it by him being, like, earlier, is that a metaphor? But it's just sort of, like, we're going to show you the flashback. And then Liana's going to do some psychoanalysis. And then John's going to say something, like, a little pert or whatever. And then we're going to roll forward. Yeah. And I just think that, like, a few more passes on this episode, we could have gotten to a place where we get all of the same messaging without it sort of being so constantly telegraphed throughout the episode. I did, like, I don't understand the distinction while there is one. I thought that, the Aaron Pierre delivery there was just fantastic. He's so good. I was also struck, of course, by the fact that he did not actually. Respond to the question about being lonely here, which feels very notable. And also, I think this is another moment where there's not just, of course, the insight about John and his family, but about the guardians here. Like, they do think of everybody as a soldier to be programmed, right? And this is where we get that, you know, you'll be even more isolated if you're chosen. And he's like, no problem. This is where we get that I grew up missing them moment, which is. You know, just so, so sad. Young John learns the truth when we flashback. We see that his mother is trying to contact the guardians. And she tells John, they're not seeing what they need to see. This was really tough. You're still scared, right? They're not seeing what they need to see. The birds are telling them. And he says, then the birds are liars. Prove it. Bernadette wants John to shoot an apple off his dad's head. This is the prove it test here. This was. Quite intense. John, who is a child, asked to shoot an apple, point a gun and shoot an apple off his dad's head. And John's senior's like, shouldn't we build up to this? And Bernadette says, John could shoot a moth out of the sky. Of course, it's not really about his accuracy as a young sniper. It's having to stare down the terror of what would happen if something went wrong here. Now, this is interesting because we, of course, know that John's senior. It's very The Click and the Dead, Sharon Stone, I have to say. Oh, Sharon Stone. Sorry, it's a very important movie to me. I love that for you. I do. Gary Sinise is her dad. And he's strung up. Yeah, yeah, yes. Gene Hackman's like, shoot him down. She doesn't. Doesn't happen. No. Doesn't turn out well. No. For good old baby Sharon Stone. On the house it's going to turn out front. Like, we know that John's senior's alive, right? We've heard in the future. But it's not really what it's about. That's another critique I have this episode, though. Because in terms of inertia or momentum, what are the stakes on this interview where we already know that John got the job? For me, it's. Seeing how he navigates it. And also deepening our understanding of what the Guardians are after and why. Because we're so on our. It feels weird to say on our guard. On our guard. But we are so, you know, we're. Skeptical. Yeah. We're very skeptical of them and are meant to be, clearly. And to see, you know, what. How John is responding. So, like, a moment, like, the point you're going to your father and try to shoot an apple off his head. The fact that John lowers his gun there is, like, I didn't wonder if John Sr. was going to. Have his head blown off because we know he's alive. But it's like, what is young John in that moment going to do? Yeah. I do think that's interesting. And I think all of this episode is interesting. I just think. I do not think this episode is in the same county, state, country as the Acolyte episodes where we're like, we already know how this turned out. So, that's not the comp I'm making. But I do think from a, like, tension point of view, it is an interesting exploration of the psychology. The psychology of a character. Yes. And I would love to have that married with a plot propulsion that feels a bit higher stakes than, like, we know John's going to pass this interview. And we know that he's not going to die when his mom sends to walk him home at night. And we know that he doesn't shoot his dad in the head. Maybe we wonder if he shot his mom in the head because she's not around, you know? That was on my mind in that scene. Like, oh, God, is this about to go horribly, horribly wrong? Um, John is in his room drawing when his mom enters and he hides the sketchbook. This was also quite sad. She's like, show it to me. Admires his gifts. Tells him that she knows he'd rather be doing that than this. And then tells him, this is one of the kind of course correction moments, loving your dad is just as natural as drawing, right? John says, I was scared. It's normal to not want to hurt the people that you love. So, confronting that even though that was where this all started with Bernadette saying to John Sr., like, a version of, it's normal to not want to hurt the people you love or leave them, have them navigate life without you. Yeah. This, they're. Their son, their boy, like, was wondering if that was an okay thing to think and feel. Tells him that she made up the birds, so he learns this here. And he knows this moving forward. Every time he looks at a bird, he knows that this was a lie that his parents told him. And also tells him the guardians know you're better than Hal. You're better. And that they are giving John the same gift, calls it a gift, that Hal had, which was navigating life without fear. Tells him he can stop if he wants, right? If learning all this, if you don't want to keep going, you don't have to. And John decides, no, let's go shoot. I'm ready. I'll go wake your dad. No, not dad. You. You. That was a great moment. Really good. You was heavy there. You was heavy. And then he tells her after firing the shot successfully. I don't like cheeseburgers. Hate them. Hate cheeseburgers. Liana is still pushing for the discharge details. If he wants the job, he's going to have to share a comfortable life. Or not. And then we learn. The nine months of staking out the target, John got fucked because Hal, who was drunk and chatting with the defense secretary's deputy at a titty bar, just flew in solo, blew up the compound. Just tweeted it out. He'd been working on this for nine months and Hal just tweeted it out. Flew off with Gray Wolf and dropped him at Guantanamo. Some very tough moments for Hal Jordan in this episode. That won't be the last one. And General Chavez asked John to sacrifice. Sacrifice himself for cover. Right. Do you know? Do you understand what you're agreeing to? And John does. So Hal is the reason that John was dishonorably discharged, that he was stripped of, that he lost his military career. I mean, this is a huge extra insight that we have into the level of resentment that John would feel toward Hal Jordan. I thought another interesting nugget here, though, was that we will learn from Liana. John's like, well, he was following orders, right? The good soldiers follow orders, crosshair, bad batch, like, through line of all of this. And Liana's like, actually, he wasn't. And in fact, a problem we're having with Hal Jordan is that he doesn't listen and does what he wants. Now, there's the tension between, like, okay, well, is that my mission? Then if so, it doesn't matter if I'm comfortable, right? John's relationship to the mission, the command. There's that tension. But, like, this was because we're in an episode where we're like, the Guardians, like, what's up with them? The fact that Hal isn't just doing what they say isn't entirely here. Like, there is that this guy does what he wants and is a rogue. But also, like— Right, flew and drunk from a titty bar conversation and dropping people off at Guantanamo. Not ideal. Not great, not our fave. But deeply skeptical of this authority. Yeah, and capable of making decisions for himself. I am awaiting my mug that says Sinestro was right. You'll have to clear the fan. I was supposed to write mugs out of the cupboard in order to find spots. I'll smash them to the floor. But, like, yeah, the idea that Hal is a character who's not only doing what the Guardians say feels to me, coming out of this episode, like a good thing. 100%. So, that's rich. I love you, Laura Linney. I do not trust the Guardians. Exactly. And to be clear, I never have. John is processing the discharge. He's wallowing. Yes, he is. He's upset. And we understand why. And this is a real, my adult son, get out of my house. Yeah. How long are you going to stay here until you kick me out? This is great. Yeah, I loved all of this. Finds out that his mom applied to art school for him and he got in. So, the path has not changed, she tells him. Courage is fear that said its prayer, son. You can be worried, but you have to be brave enough to still try. Because one day, every little boy is going to want to be just like you. But until then, you have to make yourself happy. And John says, When did you care if I was happy? And she says, still mad about those crayons. It's great. It's a great exchange. Here's my question. Uh-huh. Do you feel like she sent him, she did this art school application as a way to make him an even better, more well. Because it is positioned here as her saying, make yourself happy in the meantime. You are going to be the Green Lantern of Earth. But you can do your little art thing for now if it'll make you feel good. But like. A more sinister layer of this could just be like, well, we did the military thing. Now, if you've got this artistic training, that will make you an even better candidate for Green Lantern Hood. And the fact that, like, when they come to find him for his test. It's through the art school. The test is an art one. Sure. I guess the question is, I think that's entirely in play. I don't trust. Especially. Any mom. Space mom or otherwise. The framing of, like, the path hasn't changed. We just are walking a slightly different path. Yeah. But she isn't like, she isn't like, but this is like enough. This is like a way to get your extracurriculars that'll look, make your college application look even better. She's saying, this will be, you'll love this. You'll love. You have to make yourself happy. You'll love art. You'll love this. But I feel like in her head, she's like, and they'll love it. They'll love that you're an artist. I guess the question is, how much do we think that the stewards or anyone on Earth really knows and understands about being a Green Lantern? I don't know. Because since Hal is the first. On the one hand, yes. But on the other hand. On the other hand, like. Like, is there at a level of. They know everything about Sinestro. Like, I don't, I don't. But do we think that they would have an understanding, that anybody would have an understanding that, like, artistic ability would be an attribute and a trait of consequence in terms of forging a construct? A construct. But do they, do they, like, what, maybe there's just enough to. I feel like if you thought about that. To glean. To glean it. From observing. So I think it's. How much publicity has Hal been doing on the television? Well, it seems like a lot. Yeah. That guy's always on television. He's on TV. He's forever. He's like, Barbara Walters, let me tell you about my constructs. That guy's always on TV. Yeah. Oh, man. The, the difference in the constructs is so interesting, right? Because, so we've got this, like, John is at art school. He's drawing his mommy issues and his bird issues at the same time, right? And then this guy comes in and he's like, make a watch. Yeah. Right? All of it. And we were. We were tracking this from the beginning, this idea of, like, what John makes versus what Hal makes. And I think this is really interesting. I was reading a bit into this and, and The Wrap has a great article about this episode where they interviewed Vanessa and Steven and the rest of them. And Vanessa says Guy Gardner and Hal are allowed to be imaginative. They're allowed to think of these, like, incredibly silly things if they want to. They're allowed to think of incredibly fun, big, large things, like how he'll come in with a giant fist. John has to be precise. He can't miss. So, like, another way in which the bar is in a different place for John than it is for them. So, like, every single gear in that watch has to work or else, you know, it's a fail. Whereas, and so this idea that, like, how, how specifically, Guy Gardner I'm less familiar with, but how specifically inventing what they call, like, hollow constructs, right? And coming at it with, like, a, quote, cockpit mentality. This idea of just sort of, like, as a flyboy, I'm improvising and I'm doing something big and dramatic in my life. And, like, a giant green fist or, like, whatever the case may be. And John is like, I have precisely thought through as an architect or as an artist or whatever the case may be, all of the inner workings of this. And it is all perfect. This is Jeff Johns in Green Lantern Rebirth describes John's projection as being, quote, built from the inside out. You look close. You can see every nut and bolt that makes it work. And, you know, the idea of the internal mechanism being so crucial to how John is forging constructs and, you know. You know, part of the show's intention is for us to understand the internal nature of the characters who we're watching. I love seeing the reverence with which John. Because, you know, there's the first test, right? Draw the building we're in. And then the second test very quickly is, like, watch. Okay, here's the ring. And the reverence on John's face as he looks at that ring. Future timeline of the show. The past for us watching episode two. The reverence on his face when he saw the suit. When he saw the lantern. There is, like, a kind of holy quality to this. Yeah, like, hero worship. I grew up with this. Yeah. Like, watching this on the TV. And now it's on my thingy. Yeah. And so what is. Whose ring is that? Test ring. Test ring? So they just have random rings? I mean. So they could just give John a ring? Well, they've got their rules. But they're making him take. But the system is imperfect, as they like to say. As they like to remind us. You know, so what is changing, right? The Courage is Fear line. We have this kind of, like, healthier evolution of an. And then we have, like, the, okay, this is this thing that I have spent my whole life working toward. And here it is. And, oh, my God. Like, here it is. And I get to put it on my finger and make something with it for the first time. What is kind of entrenched. The ability for John. You know, we've talked about the sketch pad in the interrogation scene in episode one. You know, thinking about form, but also function. Right? And, like, beauty and the intention that he brings. And his perspective and what his eye is seeing. About, like, the Stephen Williams comment you shared earlier about wanting this episode to be rooted in John's perspective and what he sees. Well, like, that's inextricable from how he's forging his constructs. What does he see? What does he. What is he able to understand about the intricacy of the thing that Hal's not thinking about at all? The idea that John's constructs in general in the comics are more lasting than Hal's. That Hal's will just poof immediately. Because, again, they're hollow. And they're not thought through. And John is like, here is an intricately designed. Designed. thing that i have made and that with the bird you know in episode two the the many aspects so don't you think then like it well it popped out of his subconscious but let's pretend that he like methodically made a living thing but like he would be thinking about breathing and the bones and the heart and the you know the circulatory system and everything that he knows about birds and he would put it into that bird and then keep it alive right and then and then how would be like bird bird you know and then that sort of thing poofs but yeah thought about the bones thought about the circulatory system yeah thought about the stomach we can move on respiratory system what other systems are there i don't know the soul of the bird yeah like that then that's really sad then that he got squashed if he had a soul i mean it was sad anyway it was sad anyway i hope he comes back uh you mentioned leap of faith already i hope he comes back as well the the what what is leap of faith if not another are you afraid test in a way right and the answer doesn't have to be no it's are you gonna jump anyway looney tunes-esque little no we have seen coyote versus acme and it was delightful we had a great time at coyote versus acme wonderful movie incredibly entertaining would recommend seeing that in the theater because the crowd was having just a wonderful time see in the theater also if you're sitting at home you're like i'm not really sure i'm gonna like it can i just say for the better call sol fans that this was like it was such a better call sol episode yeah in a in albuquerque loser lawyer shitty cars billboards it was so better call sol class action lawsuit against chinese kind of a similar like yeah style i'm like you're onto something like will forte is great that movie but i was deeply surprised they didn't get bob out and kirk they should have it would have been amazing oh man um this is where leon asked john to confirm that house the reason he was discharged he does and then she lists all the other things that he can blame how for right a handy kind of summation and says would you be comfortable replacing how jordan understanding that he would be under the impression that you're simply his backup are those my orders if you get the job yes these will be your orders well then it doesn't matter if i'm comfortable with it how true is that going to be you've already noted and reminded us that told how about the man hunter yeah he did speaking of how john goes home to tell to tell his parents the big news right it's finally happened and uh how jordan's how ruin that as well and he drops the midwest huxtables line which is not good insane work terrible insane work from how absolutely terrible from how uh he's like doing the uh the the the the kind of how jordan act inside but then he takes it out of control he's like oh my god why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me why did you do this to me yeah um oh did you want to share the news with your your parents oh god sorry for oh no i don't give a flying fuck what you were hoping for but i'm guessing it's this ring right here and i don't need a fucking sidekick and i don't want a fucking backup and the only way you're going to get this ring is over my dead fucking body we'll start with the ring and i'm going to start with the ring training monday morning looking forward to it junior and then flies off so hal is deeply pissed and deeply threatened right away he knows that this is yeah and he's right yes that's the thing it's like he's shitty to john this whole time but like he's right theory corner yeah let's do it if you don't want to hear no major comic spoilers in this instance but some theories from our listeners yeah you don't want to hear these theories we'll see you in a few days for buffy and then next monday for lanterns god episode four already sheesh theory corner and comic spoilers oh that was fun that was really fun carlos there we go great job all right wonderful take us through okay rapid fire yeah several several emails is laura linney actually a manhunter in disguise i don't think so but we got a lot of emails about it interesting i'm uh i say no i think that shot in the trailer jasmine cephas jones in front of the like looming large a lot of people thought that was a manhunter thing so i think they're having trouble letting go of the idea that you always say to hold it loosely hold it having trouble letting go i think that it feels it seems very important inside of this series and what the series is focusing on so far to actually have a guardian yeah be involved uh several emails what if everyone in the town except for carrie is a manhunter this i kind of like this we got a lot of emails about this one of the first comments on the pod when it dropped last week and then they just kept building from there and i was like yeah so everyone's a manhunter now ben ailey ben ailey ben i mean that fucker this would bill other bill zoe murph jesse um you know we were talking about the town hall scene last week oh yeah and like what there just seems to be like body snatchers you know what i mean some level of shared awareness about something yeah yeah coach this is what we were talking about right um again maybe it's just get this guy out of here but there definitely seems to be some okay town of manhunters i i kind of what do you think i kind of like this i'm not ready to say yes but i think this is i like the idea of there being more than one manhunter i'll say that much right now yeah the whole there's one probably there's more than more than one i like that as well all right ken says as great as jess and see we already mentioned this a little bit but as great as jasmine see if his jones was in this episode of lanterns i can't help but wonder where nicole ari parker comes in because jones is still playing the role of john's mother in 2016 there's also older actor for john's dad as well as at least one of his brothers how likely do you think it is that one of them is responsible for what happened to hal in 2026 john jr is already established to be a pretty good shot i i say zero i also i don't feel like that's i don't think that's what we're i think that would be a bad story okay uh casey says they said it can take the form of any species so perhaps the manhunter is a horse incredible a lot of horses on the bacon family ranch casey gets it we're just asking questions we're just asking all the questions a horse oh god that's a house of the dragon reference that is a house of the dragon reference talking about okay rachel wrote in to say and this is a little bit of comics lore the simplest answer to solving the there is only one earth green lantern but where does that put john stewart is in many recent iterations of the comics lore john stewart is either lantern of another sector or as a special status or operates freelance not bound to sector 2814 it tracks given what they are showing so far that he has a unique prodigiousness and it seems the guardians are keenly interested in him and maybe looking to do things differently going forward as things in this new dcu are escalating the ring may have found and chosen guy gardner at the moment of uh hal's death because of his worth i guess and proximity perhaps john was off world or just farther away the ring doesn't have to do the guardians bidding but the guardians pivoted after that pilot episode final moment and said fair enough the ring chose guy but we chose john and you have omni jurisdiction with this new ring since things seem to be bleeding between sectors and beyond our grasp to contain them and you've proven yourself agile enough to handle these threats and thus both guy and john can't participate in any and all upcoming dcu projects could be yeah here's the thing i feel that we can be sure of james gunn is gonna want nathan fillion to continue to be in all dcu projects because he puts him in everything now i love nathan fillion so i don't mind it but i don't think we're like getting rid of guy gardner so we've got to find a way we know that john stewart all right so this is the answer to how yeah right i like it okay i'm open to other possibilities i can do without guy gardner person i'm just saying there's no i we just there's no way this is like there's no way last but not least this is an oppenheimer green lantern crossover matt says the guardians seem to desire peacekeepers who are essentially devoid of emotion the green lantern core were a backup plan this desire to strip emotion from decisions is seen in their initial creation of the manhunters and their creation of the third army to destroy the green lantern core they've even lobotomized members of their own species like ganthet who displayed too much emotion and individuality what emotions if any do you feel are most relevant to policing slash peacekeeping i understand that you folks have covered the green lantern core this week and the green lantern itself has been compared to a nuclear bomb in this show in oppenheimer there is extensive discussion about the power escalation of nuclear weapons atom bomb and hydrogen bombs who this bomb should be used against and who should have decision-making capacity regarding the usage of these weapons in the lantern comics the green lanterns initially could not be used to make constructs capable of lethal force when the sinestro core started a war against the green lanterns many of the green lantern core were getting destroyed because they couldn't make lethal constructs while the sinestro core was ultimately defeated in that storyline sinestro felt he had won as he made the guardians change their philosophy regarding the rings and the shift and shift galactic opinion regarding the green lanterns do you two feel that the tremendous power of the green lantern is really necessary for intergalactic policing other lantern core like the blue lantern core would wield far less powerful constructs um i just think intergalactic policing is a no problematic concept to begin with i agree i think it's mind your own patch yes you know and and don't feel like you get to listen here's a good good check to run yeah would Palpatine be like I'm in yeah then we're out what about Hux though if Hux proposes it we're in on Hux we have some questions we're in on Hux first order maybe Evil Empire no Starkiller Beast he's a ginger with a cat I don't know I gotta I gotta support my guy Hux um all right anything else no I'm uh I'm excited for episode four super excited for Buffy season five what a treat what a thrill yeah joy um thank you to our guardians yeah I just want to shout out I believe the Sean Fantasy Oppenheimer meme was the work of who who made that Carlos Carlos Jomie's getting all the credit for that I want to make sure that Carlos gets credit for it shout out Jomie who does a lot of things but in that particular atomic bomb of a meme it's good Carlos executing an artistic vision of yeah excellence and renown loved it what a what a what a wonderful Instagram carousel that was thank you to Carlos yeah Scott Jacob Arjuna Jomie the whole squad thank you to you thank you to you thanks to how the entire galaxy with you happily absolutely I love that absolutely um think of the things we could make with a green lantern you didn't make a a sleazy comment about about how Jordan rummaging in your box or anything anything you want to do here at the end of things what are they going to put on the carousel if you don't that's a great question you know it's just we're pushing everyone to try new things I guess uh I'll let them stretch yeah here's there you go here's my value I'll make a dick joke for episode four I believe in you see you soon bye car hearts holiday gift guides were built in collaboration 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