Language, Land, and Lineage: Sustainability and Resilience in Music

Welcome to Toxave Culture Talks, a podcast of Paradeesek, the Pacific and regional archive for digital sources and endangered cultures. I'm Jody Kiel. I'm Stephen Kegow. These are conversations with people who have personal and cultural connections to the languages of music in our archive. As producers of this podcast, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which he's recorded and they are respects to their elders past and present. We extend that respect to all First Nation contributors and this means. And please be aware that these podcast may contain the voices of deceased people. You are listening to Sinla Sinla by Talandid Artist, Huawei Sauray from the Philippines. This beautiful music introduces a special episode of Toxave Culture Talks, produced by Sydney Conservatory of Music, PhD candidate, Star Abelado. Star's research focuses on bamboo music as a crucial aspect of Filipino culture. Before coming to Australia, Star worked in the Bamboo Musical Instruments Innovation Research and Development Program at the University of the Philippines Center for Ethnomusicology and the UNESCO Culture 2030, the Maddick Indicator's Project. A PhD field work was conducted in Lantapun, Bukit Non in Mindanao, with the Talandid community, a Lumad group. Lumad is a collective term for non-Muslim indigenous people of Mindanao. The recordings that came out of her research are documented in the SA1 collection in the Paradeesek archive. In the episodes, Star is joined by DMA candidate, Assyrian and Aminian musician, Lolita Inanuel. Together, the interview, Talandid, Lumad, Kaltjabara, Rodilio, Wawui, Saue, and Filipino Aboriginal Australian musician, Ryan Dobby Klaepen. Their conversation explores how language, land, and people shape resilient and sustainable musical practices. United by their dedication to indigenous advocacy, both artists bring unique creative perspectives to this meaningful conversation. Another notable aspect of this conversation is the connection between the presenters and their guests that Star and Lolita will explain as they introduce the artist. We first hear from Star as she introduces Wawui, and then Lolita will introduce Ryan. Rodilio Wawai Lin Saue is a Filipino culture bearer who embodies multiple roles within his community. He serves as a leader, educator, farmer, and master artist specializing in bamboo instruments, cut-yepi, boat loots, and soil painting. Wawui's musical style showcases his cultural identity while embracing global themes, weaving together rock and raggae influences with traditional indigenous rhythms and sonic textures. I've also had the great privilege of working with him as both Manthor and collaborator in my doctoral research. Also with us today is an Arya award-winning artist and proud Filipino and Marawari musician, composer, producer, he's a rapper as well. Ryan Klaepen, also known as Dobby. So Dobby's music moves through multiple musical worlds. He goes through hip-hop, classical, and traditional music, and it's woven together so beautifully. He is an ambassador for the Indigenous Literacy Foundation and his Arya Award-winning album Wat Angu River Story is a project that's deeply connected to the environment and First Nations justice. I'm also personally very honored to have played keys and sung on this album and to also call Dobby a great friend. We now hand over to Star and Lolita to steer the conversation, opening with an acknowledgement of country by Ryan. Whenever I acknowledge country here, I bring in a bit of my motor-worry language from my father's side. So I'd love to do that here. Bitter at Tarenga, Yamaguro Bunko Bill, Ninny Nour and Bargatago May, Gatago May, Nathulgari, Dobby, Nathul, motor-worry. So wow, I know you uphold your lineage legacy of shifting peacemakers and champions. I'm a descendant of Abba Webillian. Abba Webillian is the great flood history. So it's the one saved at the Mount Kitangland. So we get eight children. Of course, he married our ancestor, Baikinamayong, who was saved at the Mount Kalatongan. So we got married after the flood and then we have eight children and the intermarried between the children because nobody was left, only they had to adopt them. So now we have the Apok Zawlana, who became the ancestors of the Talandic. So I'm from the Talandic tribe and of course our great ancestors like Malangong, Apok Nangolutai and of course down to my father, Datukinolintang, the chief of our tribe years ago because he passed away. So I'm from the Talandic tribe with this peacemaker of the tribal people in Mindanao. That's also a lumen group. My father had three wives, eight and two bling. I'm the youngest in the first wife. We are seven and in the second wife, the eight children and the third wife, three. So you grew up in a big family? Yeah, really big. Well, Ryan, you also share a Filipino heritage. And I've introduced you as a proud motorwari in Filipino person. Could you tell us a bit about your connection to both sides of your heritage? Yeah, for sure. I mean, just gearing from Tatthai now, I have so much that I've put into cultural advocacy for my places of Mora Wari man in the space here on Garigal Country. But also there's so much that I need to learn. I've always said that I've wanted to be able to speak, not just Tagalog, but Wari, which would be amazing. My mom came here to this country 1985 from Tagloba on the island of it, lady. And every time I go back to the Philippines, I learn more. How can I, like, what are my obligations there? What can I do in the art space to represent the Philippines? Wow, wow. Actually, when I traveled to the US, we have this program for the Philippine and the Espora. We call it Kongs away, Kongs their paradise festival. Trying to guide the artist to the Filipino roots through music, through art. So we have this tribal tour that happens every year. So they can see the roots, the Philippine roots. I think they're important for the Filipino artist in the diaspora. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned that you also want to learn the language of your mother's heritage as well. So was it the Wari? Yeah. Wari language, yeah. When my mom hears it, it's really special. She told me about a trip that she took to Tasmania and she heard someone speaking Wari. She was like, "Oh my God, who and she was from the same province?" Oh, wow. Which is just so, you know, region-specific and makes me feel right at home. So. [Music] Yeah, thank you for playing that song. Actually, I wrote the song to encourage people to remove their fear, protect the environment. Because the main point of the song is let us protect the mountains, the forest. Because the forest is our school. I'm going to tell you about it. our church, our marketplace, and our pharmacy. So this is about life. It's about life that, of course, during logings, our school was destroyed, because the trees that give signs went to hunt, went to Kolekhani, all destroyed. It took everything, they are vista forest. Now there is forest denudition in the Philippines. And because forest is environment, and the culture is one, there is also a kind of cultural erosion. Could you explain the meaning of the trolle catch step and stump, like the significance of that? No, see, don't be afraid. Because back in the 1980s, 1990s, some of the environmentalists were killed. I heard one priest was killed because he was protecting the forest. So that came into my mind, oh, I should ride the song. So people will not be afraid to protect the environment. Because it is our life. Without the environment, we all die. Especially if we cannot protect the top soil. The top soil is the reason why we have apples. We have everything, we have cabbage, we have carrots, we have broccoli, we have cauliflower, we have rice, we have. I live this, brought to the sea. Over time, every time there is rain, there is soil erosion. What will happen to the world? Flatland will remain. And then it would not be enough. They cannot produce food for the whole world population. Could you tell us more about what it means to you to write songs in your language? Of course, I'm speaking to the design people and to the Tagalog people. Because we all have responsibility to try to write it in a Bizayaan. But some of my songs, of course, are written in our own language. There is also a kind of erosion, a language erosion. The coming of the migrants, that is dominant. So we need to keep our language. Because our language is connected with our ancestral territory. The native title writes. The native title is spoken through the native language. There are so many phrases that you're saying that relate so specifically to here as well. Our communities are going through native title claims and trying to regain our ownership of land and to build from that. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking about the two big trips that I took last year, one to the Philippines and then to Ecuador. And when I showed my partner, Lola, who is Ecuadorian, this song specifically, and we watched your video, you know, and there's so many powerful moments, it made her emotional because it reminded her so much of the music and the culture of the indigenous peoples in Ecuador. Not just because of the same environmental issues, but even like the same hair, you know, because they also have so much importance of long hair. So those types of things really just makes me think of global indigeneity. You know, what does that mean for all of us fighting for land, fighting for the protection of our forestry here as well, you know? Yeah. Yeah, because we are most of the indigenous people, we are the marginalized. Yeah. Yeah. And I haven't heard any politicians that would say, "Oh, my platform, one of my platforms is for the indigenous people." And you know, when I grew up, I witnessed so many people come to my father, a teacher, asked my father about indigenous knowledge system practices, and in general, it asked my father, "How you built your house?" Yeah. A doctor would come and ask, "What are your medicinal plants?" Yeah. "What are your songs?" We are the source of knowledge, but then, nobody cares. I don't know. Maybe we are just a source. And then, ignored for the development, we are not part of the development, and the stem, most of the people are rich people or politicians already though. They just go to our ancestral territory and then look for the best spot, and then have it and put their resorts. Yeah. But we became slaves. You know, it's a problem, not only in our tribe. I think it's over the world. Yeah. Yeah. If people learn to just collaborate and understand and learn from indigenous peoples, not only are we building like our collective identities and finding an ethical sense of pride in our nations, we would be healing the land as well. But no, you know, people want to go cheap, they want to go faster, they want to build more, they want to extract. It's very extractive. Well, Tata, one thing that I heard you say, and I'm learning from you as well, is you mentioned about this deep connection between the language and the language is the land, the land is the language. And it's just so amazing that Ryan has a song called "The Language is in the Land." Yeah. And that's actually something that I wanted to play for us to listen to. And before we play it, maybe, Ryan, when we play this in your performances and your sets, it's usually the last song. You know, it's the last, I guess, message I'm assuming that you want to leave people with. Would you say that's right? Very much so. Yeah. The album is, among other things, a call to action. And this is the sort of call to action piece that brings my journey and my identity connecting and understanding more about the river that runs through my community. And just a quick context. So the river that runs through my community is called the Bahwan. The Nambah people call that river Waungal. And then there's the Kogawa River that runs up north and the Bergen River that runs down south. And those three rivers they interconnect within one kilometer of each other. The creature, what white people call the rainbow serpent, that created that river in the first place as it slithered across the land, is called Wawe in the Waungal. And my album is called Warrangal, which means river. But that same creature, when it travels up north, the language changes and so the name changes. It's not the Wawe anymore, it's the Munnigara out of the Nyandu, which is Munnigara language, where my great-grandmother, great-grandfather was born and his great-grandmother raised him under the birthing tree. The Munnigara travels, changes his name to Wawe and changes his name down into the bogari river. So the idea was, as I was learning, you got to know which language to speak to that creature in in order to connect to it. Let's have a listen to how Ryan speaks about the connection. So this is the connection between the language and the land. So the language is in the land, let's have a listen. Fresh, strange and thinner, these loin quals have had enough. Large, maricot in dire condition. She is one of policies that has taken out water from the findings of damning, but the question is, will anyone listen? So just a little snippet there. We should listen to all of it, but can I ask you Ryan about all of those samples that you have in the beginning? Yeah, throughout this song as well, you'll hear more news grabs, all these people talking about a particular incident that happened in 2019, which was this massive fish kill, right? Millions of fish that died in a place called Minindi Lakes. And it was due to a lot of government-run mistakes and corporate greed. It was mass over irrigation of the rivers and it led to blue-green algae blooming in stagnant waters. Everyone was definitely a part of that. Our rivers ran completely dry. And then we were up at the top, so everything further on, even less, right? They called a royal commission into this issue and were left with hundreds of different recommendations for how to help it. And we're still trying to meet those recommendations today. And the people that lose out are the indigenous communities, the farmers, right? Three million people that depend on this Murray-Dawling Basin. So that's kind of where that context comes from. Where is the accountability? Where is the, like you said, prioritizing indigenous knowledge because they are the ones that know how to care for country. So sing a ball. Yeah. So speaking of sustainability, so through your musical practice, you've both been very vocal champions of sustainability, right? Some people view music sustainability as the pursuit of continuing music traditions and practices as in the actual music culture. while others see it as using music to sound. solve real world problems, whether they're environmental, economic or social cultural. As musicians, what comes to mind when you think of the phrase "music sustainability"? It's very important, like, you really need to use your own language, because it is a powerful thing to have your identity. And then, of course, it will remind the name of the places, the particular name of the rivers, particular name of the mountains, the particular of everything that is found in your territory. So that's why you need to keep writing songs using your language. We can write songs with the help of the technology, but of course, we'll find a way that I didn't teach there. We can learn from the elders now, their point of view, like they're saying that you want to incorporate in your song, because in the future, the next generation would have reference knowing that your song has the roots. It's important to keep the roots, because it will make us sustainable. As a musician, I also learn the chanting, the traditional music instruments from La Bamboos, because I know that it's the root. And if you have the good root, then you have a good trunk and good branches, and you have a good fruit. So as an elder musician, give priority to the music that is rooted to our culture. With that context in mind, how do you imagine music sustainability? What does that mean to you? I think it's conversations like these. This album that I made, I wrote it as a musician. I'm not any colleges, but I am indigenous. So I have a passion there, and I have a obligation, but I don't have the answers. So I know what works. I know indigenous back burning works. I know that having indigenous people as ecological ranges works. So all I can do is point us in the direction. If anyone listens to the album, then they say, "Oh, I should really think about what sustainability looks like for the land." That's the difference. Then the album is doing its work. I think it's being about sustainability. I think indigenous peoples start the world to collaborate and connect them so that they become powerful statements. I'm thinking back to the tool that you led and that we did for Warungu. I think about how we went to Brewerauna, where your family is from, where you're from, and the fish traps there. I feel like we have to talk about that when we're talking about sustainability. Of course. Yeah, you're right. Thank you so much, Salida. That's just what came to my mind. Totally. So Brewerauna is home to these beautiful fish traps. These rock catchments, fish catchments in the river, at the barwin river. They're still there and they've been there for 40,000 years. Wow. Yeah, they haven't moved them. Kids still play in those rivers and they still catch traditionally, which is why it's so important. I feel like it's just recently been considered a natural heritage site, which is fantastic. All the money that goes into that, so that's what it looks like. That's the cover of your album. That's the cover of the album. And it's such a beautiful indication of where each tribe would be. The fact that it's still there has brought a lot of tourism, but the council, the money has gone into viewership in terms of, let's put a bridge over it. No, let's not do that. Just like maybe get out the bullweeds and actually clean up the river, you know, instead of viewing it, there'll be nothing to view if we don't take care of it. It makes me think about the time that we arrived there and how there'd been a drying out of the river, but when we did arrive, it had filled up. It's making me think about this idea of resilience and the return of the water representing that. And it's something that also is very interconnected with this conversation around music sustainability. And typically, you know, people define resilience as the capacity to withstand or recover quickly from difficulties. Dobby, I might ask you, since we're talking about this, how do you make sense of this connection particularly in the context of music? I think that is very much what I sort of bring to my music as a more quote unquote political artist, you know, I think existence is resilience. So it's not about, you know, being political or not, but I do really express that because that's what gives me a drive, you know, when I see our community talking about, we will not move, we will not budge, we will stand here. And then with that comes our knowledge and our ecological, you know, wisdom that come from our ancestors to bring those backburning practices, those ecological sustainability practices. It's all hand in hand. And music is just the best way in my mind to portray that, you know. So what I'm going to is definitely a testament to me trying to sort of portray that, but also knowing my place. Because again, I'm not an ecologist, I'm just someone that can sort of point the way. Yeah. Why do you resonate with that in terms of resilience and sustainability connection between it too? Of course, as a songwriter, as artist, it is our challenge to sing our rights. Because you can just sing love songs. Love songs maybe you think that it will be sold out? No. I don't care for me. I don't care. I sing a song that comes from my heart that tells about the struggle about people. Yeah. That's it. Because I know it will become sustainable and resilient because people can relate to it. But I have also some love songs. Because singing love songs would be a gateway for them to go to your music, to your powerful lines. We wake them up when they are maybe sleeping. So now we will have another chance to listen to one of Wa Wa's songs. Not a love song. It's called Escalie. Hey brother, right? Hey bro. Hey bro. Hey bro. You can't hear the kubi in the mouth. You know that? Moutard. Moutard. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. So can you tell us about this song and how it relates to sustainability? The song is about the hunting song. Hey bro, wait on the other side. There is a wild boar coming. Yeah. You have to ambush. And it tells about the food. About the taro. So as long as people eat taro, then there is sustainability because it can relate to the food. The traditional food is very important in survival of the indigenous people because it's the one that you know that's grown, that grow in your specific area. Food is sustenance now. So food and song, they are interconnected. So we can sing about the importance of our food, everything, you know. You're talking about the connection between music and food and how that relates to our culture and also deeper into sustainability. And our practice is it reminds me of Alara Briggs. And she has a song called Murnong Farm where she talks about living in the city in Melbourne, but as an Aboriginal woman, you know, what she can do in the concrete jungle to express resistance, express ancient practices in her rental impression. But and then talking about similar to the flower that grows out of the concrete, you know, making food like her ancestors would, you know, and the importance of food in our music. I think is very true. Well, W, I'm just thinking about, well, the whole project of what Angle is speaking to that idea as well because water is life, you know, it creates life and it's important for the fish traps and, you know, and I wanted to play water, which is a track on your album as well. So maybe we can have a listen to that first and then can share a little bit about that. For sure. Yeah, thank you very much. [Music] We need water, water is our life, we can't do without that. We need water, we're river people. They're going to camp near the river, connection to the river. It's so devastating to see this and you're going to be water. I could go out and create our rivers for cotton, ancient wisdom for cotton. Fill their pockets with riches, turn that thick width to profit, send that water to Walgit, see no fish in the bar when, asking questions like water. Take my message and fight, as you run to the streets, from the bar when they're darling, from the Murray to C. Come on! We want to ride, come on! Oh, you're nice. I love it. I can see Tazai like, "Ladot, the darling, the last one." Thank you, thank you very much. Tell us a little bit about the song and what we're hearing in that as well. Yeah, I guess, you know, to contrast from the other song with all the news grabs, this is the community talking. So you can hear Arnie Josie-Biner from Monoori Country, Wilmer Ringle. You can hear my auntie, cousin, auntie Lily Shira talking from Rewarner, Brad Gordon, Bruce Schiller, and we've got a few other people there as well and Rachel Evans who's doing the protest song at the end. And this album being a hip-hop album about the rivers that millions of people depend on, it can't be just my story. It needs to be the voices of those people, the people that grew up there. I didn't grow up there, so that was my obligation as well, to sort of give advocacy to them to say what they want to say. And so. Give them voice, yeah, give them voice, and that's what music does, right? So that was kind of my plan with this song. Yeah, we're having a problem also in the Philippines. Rich people got to water rights and they're having problems like water systems, having a poor service because water rights is owned by people from vanilla. Yeah, good news. We have a greater connection, you know, because your song is still about water and river and then I'm from the mountains, so it's really connected to us. It's so great that you can both see so many connections in terms of how you're using music to speak with your communities, I should say. And you're both doing it in unique ways, in ways that speak to you artistically and creatively as well, which is what I'd like to talk to you both about, you know, this idea of creativity and your creative practices. And I think the reason why I mention this is because when we start talking about resilience and sustainability, there's this big word that can sometimes be a bit complicated or tricky to talk about, and that's authenticity. The reason why I say, you know, it's complicated is because sometimes it can be a really restrictive way to talk about musical cultures, you know, as if there's one way, one authentic way to be. And, you know, we know that culture isn't fixed, it's changing, it's constantly evolving as people live. But then there's this other view of authenticity, which is just about staying true to who you are and your voice. So we'd love to know for each of you, how would you define authenticity? Maybe Tata, you can start. Authenticity, it starts with your personal point of view that is rooted to your culture. It depends on how you're gonna serve it, the substance, or if my words are like water from the wells that take in from my territory, then songs, different genre, is just a container of my ideas. I can say it in a reggae, hip-hop, ballad, whatever, but still my words are the wisdom from my ancestor, from my territory. Yes. So we don't worry about using it through hip-hop, using it through reggae, but the essence of that song is from the wheels that can be found in your territory. Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful, thank you. And as you're saying that I'm thinking now, a lot of the time when we talk about authenticity, it's because the context of society and the industry, but also society, changing it. And we often get lost because of that. In music, there's money, there's fame, there's whatever, all of this stuff, and you're fitting an indigenous concept into a non-indigenous framework. And then trying to figure out how to bring, in our case, 80,000 years of culture into a capitalistic run society that plays your song and gives you 0.007 cents per stream. So how does that work? It doesn't. But we try and make your work, and I feel like authenticity comes in that context for me. But like you're just saying, Tate, like Brad Steadman, who is a big part of this album, he said to me, "Just remember, you're not a person doing aboriginal things. You're an aboriginal person doing things. So you are who you are, and that has to be strong, and strong framework, and then everything comes from that." And we are so lucky musicians, we're so lucky because we can insult people through songs. We can slap them. It's not so subtle. Sometimes not so subtle. They're dancing. That power of being able to represent your community and represent your culture is just what makes it's the biggest positive power of music. I feel just so fulfilled, because not only am I honoring my culture and my community, but I'm also learning along the way. And I feel like that's a really beautiful thing that I can learn language in it. I hope to do that for my Filipino side as well. Well, Tate, I guess I'm thinking about this idea of staying true to your creative voice, you know, with all the different creative things that you do and choices that you make. And whether that ever comes into tension with the traditions, the shared traditions of your community. For me, a truth must be spoken, even if it hurts other people or if it will cost you death. But for me, I'm not afraid of death because everyone dies anyway. So it's my accountability to tell the truth. How can we shape the community if we let the truth? So there are many ways to tell the truth. It's either it could be brutal. Because some people, they have different levels. Some people should be hit in the head. Some people must be hit in the heart before they can wake up. So truth is like a spear or could be a thing that makes people wake up and understand the purpose of life. And then understand what is justice. That justice that applies to everyone not only for the rich people or for people or for the indigenous people or for the other people. But the truth must be justice. For me, I think about the indigenous people across the world and their connection to land. And everything after that is mess. And it's helped me realize and subside anxieties about how society can make you feel a certain way, make you look or talk or learn or be in educational institutions a certain way, blah, blah, blah. But a lot of this is a house of cards. Because the most important thing is understanding what land you're on. So it helps me undo all of that. It's a profound truth that helps you actually go, "Well, screw this stuff." And I'm going to fight for truth. Truth and bravery. It seems to be the powerful words from this. Before we wrap up, we've asked each of you if there's one song that you'd like to leave with us. Why is there a song that you'd like to share before we finish? Will Akau's song was inspired by our annual ritual Vanaloaig, it's a river ritual. We all listen to it every year to be respect to the guardians of the water. Will Akau is the guardians of the water. Will Akau be water, will Akau be the guardians of the rivers. ♪ Nang nalap ng limong nababayahan ♪ ♪ Nang nababahan ♪ Dobby, I believe it's Dippy, you in Patulina. So Dippy in Patulina means the bird names himself. And the way I had recorded this, I was waking up and it was about 6am and I had heard this bird so close to me because it was one of those houses where there was mesh on the outside so the bird couldn't see me and I quickly recorded this bird. It's a pied butchered bird and I created the music around it. I didn't manipulate him whatsoever. ♪ Uh-huh ♪ ♪ Dippy, you in Patulina ♪ ♪ Singing this name through Arthur River Rina ♪ ♪ Kaya Lanaka Yoko Yonato Paka ♪ ♪ I think by Army telling this thing can see ya ♪ ♪ Dippy, you in Patulina ♪ ♪ Home to the moon, O the continuing dream I'm nambawel ♪ ♪ Wondered wilder, ride a Camilla Roy ♪ ♪ Moodle, worry, black and G, walk 'em onward to Bambinia ♪ There are so many beautiful ways that we can continue this conversation and I wish we had a bit more time. But we have reached the end of this episode of Toxave. Thank you so much, Dobby and Tatave for your time and for sharing a powerful work and your music so great to listen together as well. It's so lovely to learn about all the connections between your two practices. Yeah. Thank you Huawei and Ryan for your participation. To Lolita for your input and to Star for guest producing this fascinating podcast episode. The conversation showed that there are many different ways to approach music, sustainability and resilience. For example, using local materials such as bamboo, incorporating language in songs, being rooted in culture and on method genre, using field sounds to connect to the land and voicing the struggles and truths. But we can see that these all come back to language, land and people. If you would like to hear more music from Huawei and Dobby, you can find them on streaming services online. If you would like to access the SA1 collection, documenting Star Abelado's research, or you would like more information about Paradeasek, the work we do and the online catalog, you can visit our website at www.paradeasek.org.au. Talks of a culture talks was launched as part of the United Nations year of Indigenous languages in 2019. It is produced by Jordy Kel and me Stephen Gagal. This special episode was guest produced by Star Abelado with research assistant Lolita Elanuel and audio engineering by Michael Menzeni. For this special episode, we particularly thank the Sydney Conservatorium of Music. We would also like to acknowledge the support of Eldaka, the language data commons of Australia, the ARDC, the Australian Research Data Commons, the Australian Research Council Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of Language, and the University of Sydney, the University of Melbourne, and the Australian National University.