Labubu what? How pop culture drives soft power

(upbeat music) - Hello everyone, Riga Fakundo here, managing editor of Warc APEC. Welcome to the podcast. Pop culture isn't just entertainment anymore. It's the new soft power shaping global identity, aspiration and consumption. Case in point, the wild success of China's Labubu Dolls and Netflix K-pop Demon Hunter. In Q1 2025, sources say that Labubu's overall revenue spiked by 165% year on year. Domestic sales grew by 95% while the international sales skyrocketed by 475%. Meanwhile, K-pop Demon Hunter has become Netflix's most watched film ever, overtaking even squid games. And their soundtrack has four global hits, especially in the US. So if you've been wondering about the craze, then this episode is just for you. We explore what this means for brands fighting for attention and credibility with consumers. But before we get started, here's a quick word from our sponsor. - Lions Learning doesn't just teach, it transforms. Join one of our cohort led digital courses for creatives, marketers and strategists who want to accelerate career growth. Creatives, the Lions Creative MBA is your toolkit for crafting award-winning work that turns heads and opens doors to leadership. Marketers, tired of guessing what works? The Lions Growth MBA gives you the edge to spot, build and measure creativity that drives results. September cohorts are filling fast. Ready to go? Visit learning.lines.co today. - And joining me today are Michael Patton, founder and president of the culture group and Sherpa Sinha, regional CSO of McCann Worldwide. Welcome to the podcast guys. - Hello. - Hey Rick, that's great to be here. - Likewise. - All right, the first important question to ask is do either of you have labubus? Michael, do you have a labubu? - No labubu here. - Sherpa, how about you? - Rika, you know me well enough. - Well, it doesn't matter if none of you have labubus, I definitely don't. But as cultural observers, I'm sure you can explain what labubu is for our audience. So Michael, that question is for you. Can you explain what exactly it is and why is everyone so crazy about it? - Yeah, labubu is all the rage and for many of the right reasons. And I think before we get into labubu and K-pop demon hunters, which I'll call KPDH for short, I really think it's important to set the stage around the concept of soft power. So for me, soft power is less the love of American culture in the 70s and 80s or the invasion of British rock and roll. And when we think about it from an Asian perspective, where we sit as culture group today, the modern era of soft power really started with an exchange around ping pong and the US national ping pong team playing the Chinese national ping pong team in 1971. And this exchange, which was sport based, really set the foundation for the entry of Richard Nixon into China to have diplomatic conversations in 1972. Without that exchange of a simple ping pong game that was televised in both countries, we don't think there would have been as warm of an embrace. So that was really the first instance of soft power as it impacts Western culture and Asian culture. And I love this example of labubu that you've raised because labubu is a Chinese designed plush toy, which can accessorize a luxury handbag, a backpack or your key chain, but it was popularized by a Thai national who happens to be a member of a global K-pop group. And that's Lisa of Blackpink. So when we think about the melding and meshing of cultures, and you look at Chinese design that's being influenced by a Thai woman who happens to be singing in Korean for a K-pop group that's popular all over the world, it is a perfect example of this borderless culture that we live in, but the influence comes from some very specific areas. - I love what you said. There's a remixing aspect to how pop culture shows up today and that exchange can come from multiple sources. Shilpa, what's causing this shift? Why is pop culture becoming less monolithic and more multipolar and diverse? - Yeah, Rika, I'd just like to go back a little in time. If you remember, we were together at Cannes Lions in 2024, and we had unveiled the truth about ascending Asia where Asia was becoming an engine for global pop culture. And there we had talked about Pop Mart. This was way back in June, '24, which was already at 1.2 billion views. And then three months later, when we unveiled it regionally, La Bu Bu was at 200 million views. Today, it stands at 3.7 billion. So when we were talking about the increases in business, exactly it's in line with how its social fandom or following has gone up. Now, this is a very, very critical, I would say, juncture in how pop culture is shaping globally. And there are many things at play, right? Because global pop culture today is not one mainstream. It's a mosaic of many different remixed movements happening in the world. And it's not just a trend. If you unpack La Bu Bu's, there are many psychological, I would say, phenomenon at play, right? There's scarcity bias, there's social identity, there is tangible trophy value, there is celebrity and culture and co-creation. So that's what is a kind of, I would say, the ingredients of how pop culture is shaping today. And today, because of social media and connected communities, interesting, engaging and fascinating subcultures can come from anywhere in the world. And that's what we're seeing, right? So you can't say that one country is more powerful than the other. You don't know where the next movement is going to come from. That's the world we live in today. - Shilpa, that's a great provocation. Is there such a thing as mainstream anymore? What you're telling me makes me think about how every culture now has a seat at the marketing table because of the hyper-connected world we live in today. And I find this super interesting because I feel like this dynamic seems to mirror what's also happening in the wider world of macroeconomics and politics for two reasons. The first, it's no longer the West holding all the economic and political power. And secondly, let's be real, there's a lot of hard power on display right now, which I feel makes pop culture kind of like a soft power for brands. And what brands can do is actually wield this to connect meaningfully with customers. But to be clear, let's define what exactly soft power is and where that came from. It was a concept introduced by Harvard professor Joseph Nye in the 1980s. And it refers to the ability of a nation to influence others through attraction and persuasion rather than coercion or force. Now this is a term most commonly associated with politics, but we can't ignore that. It does have implications for the wider world of marketing. So Michael, this question is for you. Can you talk a little bit about the intersection where pop culture and soft power intersect and what's that opportunity for brands? - I always think of soft power as something similar to what you mentioned, Rika, as being anchored in ethnicity, geography, or a belief system. So if we think back to a more modern example, right? The Passion of the Christ is a form of media that actually is an example of soft power on a belief system within religion. I think brands today are facing more competition for share of wallet and those that stand out or what I would call culture brands, they stand to win consumers who will spend limitlessly. And the ability to access that share of cultural attention and cultural wallet is the ultimate prize. Even though soft power is really based in national identity or political identity or ethnic identity, the ability for a brand to say, we're here, we matter, we're at the forefront. And we are the brand that is shaping culture as opposed to following it, to me, is what's most important. And overwhelmingly, the brands that we see thriving, the brands that are turning away customers, not the ones that are trying to attract customers, are those that shape culture rather than follow it. So I think there is a difference between brand marketing and political soft power, but the intersection of the two really puts a brand on a pedestal wherein they have the ability to turn away customers. - I'm gonna probe a little bit more on this. Political soft power and brand marketing are two separate domains, but they are also interconnected. And when I look at all the things that are happening in the world right now, it's safe to say that people are having a hard time. They're doom scrolling, they're brain rotting. I know I definitely am. I'm sure a lot of people who are listening are doing that too. So whether it's things like Laboo Boo or K-pop Demon Hunters or whatever your passion point or interest is, it feels like pop culture is being used as somewhat of a coping mechanism. Is that just me or is that something you're also seeing Shilpa? - Yeah, definitely. Pop culture goes beyond being popular, right? For me, pop culture today is as much comfort culture as it is culture itself, right? And today it brings a lot of relief, reconnection and renewal, right? Because when we did our truth about escapism study, entertainment is emerging as a very healthy form of distraction from stresses of modern life. And when you talk about entertainment, pop culture is at the heart of it, whether it's films and music or books, right? So it's definitely a very entertaining escape. And also if you look at, I love going back to sociological theories or psychological theories. And if you look at like Durkheim's theory of collective effervescence, right? When communities and people come together for shared rituals and unleash joy through that, and festivals and concerts. So brands that are really able to catalyze these shared highs, right? For example, if you look at what Spotify does with fan driven playlists, right? They become more than just playing in for commerce. And as Michael said, that they become like culture shapers. And that's where they're able to really have sustained brand growth as well as brand love. - My follow-up is to you, Michael, because I know you've done a lot of work in the sport and live event space. Pop culture provides a more meaningful pathway for brands to connect with consumers. We've established that. But to be honest, this isn't a new tactic per se, but how should marketers maybe change their approach and be more intentional about how they will that given all the changes happening today? - I think the role of a brand has changed a little bit. So the brand used to exist to make you, in my theory, make you feel good about the product such that you want to buy the product and you were competing against a couple of other products in your category. The role of brand today is so much more expansive because you're not competing against a few products in your category. You're competing against so many other products in your category. You're competing against adjacent categories that are selling something that's slightly similar that may not directly compete with you, but is competing for share of cultural wallet. And then you're competing against all these other media formats and all these other messages that really didn't exist two decades ago. I think as so many walls around the world are being put up, as you mentioned, politically and geopolitically and how hard power has risen over the last decade, it becomes more important for brands to play a role in bringing joy to consumers and in doing that in ways that don't always involve the product. I think Louis Vuitton is really fantastic at this. I really think that they're one of the best. They show up in all areas of the consumer's life, sometimes in the most unexpected ways, which is shocking for a brand that has the kind of heritage that they do. With the age and the heritage and the provenance of the brand and the products to show up in gaming, to show up in music, to show up in sport, in the ways that they do, more and more aggressively each year, shows that they're shaping culture. So they're really shaping the perception that participating in any aspect of Louis Vuitton's retail activities and buying their product is going to bring you closer to the things you love that may or may not be the product itself. Owning this product can bring you closer to basketball. Our involvement with basketball makes our product more desirable to you. We're going to engage you in a totally different way. And I think that you're seeing that across the sport and entertainment landscape. So they stand out as a fantastic example for me. - You hit the nail on the head. It's definitely a tough and competitive environment out there for brands right now. And if I can connect the dots with something Shilpa said earlier, she said that nothing is mainstream anymore. By right, that means there should be more types of pop culture for brands to play with and to own. In a way, you could argue that the pop culture market just got bigger. Shilpa, do you see enough brands waking up to that opportunity? Or are we just at the tip of the iceberg? I know we've been talking about LaBoubou's, but we're only talking about it because it's the most obvious one. There are other types of more niche region or a local pop culture that brands could leverage. - No, definitely. I think brands, some brands have made a start and not every brand has done it as well as what Michael was citing the example of Louis Vuitton. I think if you look at youth today and their identity, again, I keep going back to our truth studies because that really helps us to get under the skin of what's going on in culture. And we found that today, young audiences identify themselves as BTS army, as Potterheads, sneakerheads, an e-mail fan, Bayhives, and so much more, right? That's the way they describe themselves. So as you said today, it's not about that, who am I as a person? I am a, I would say an amalgam of many different aspects of pop culture and my passion points. So I think brands are scratching the surface. Some have dealt deeper. I think Apple is doing it quite well, particularly in Asia, what, for example, they're shot on iPhone campaigns in India, on cricket, or in Thailand with Mahathai, boxing, or with Vietnam with the rap music scene, the first ever music video. So they are trying to do that. But again, are they doing, is anybody, everybody doing it with depth? And in a sustained way, I wouldn't think there are many examples around that. Michael, I'd love to get your thoughts on this too, because of the type of clients you're working with. - I think most brands are inherently biased by several things. The first is the nature of global budgets is that I think from a cultural perspective, pop culture perspective, they follow global markets, the largest global markets. So they're disproportionately weighted towards North America and Europe. And as a practitioner based in Asia for the last 13 years, that really sits at the intersection of Western culture being localized in Asia, and Asian culture being exported to the world. Overwhelmingly, we do not see great, great attention from global brands looking into this region, right? A standout would be Coca-Cola, who I think does a phenomenal job in localizing aspects of pop culture, and understanding niche culture, bubble up culture, and really understanding fandom on a grassroots level, and how that plays into their global platforms. But I think most brands are biased towards things that are large and significant, and are going to appease the decision maker in the boardroom in New York or London. And I think that the marketers in our region, Asia, APAC, East Asia, Japan, Korea, have a very difficult time in advancing things that are very relevant, because they don't have the support of stakeholders regionally and globally. I do think that the brands who are thriving are the ones that pay attention to the smallest things. And we, for example, had written about the growth in Asian IP, and lots of other folks have as well, and how that Asian IP will be exported to the world. It's not a surprise to us that K-pop demon hunters is popular. We know that animated films are popular, we know that K-pop is popular, and we know that streaming video is popular. And I think anybody around the world can see that. That this had this unique chemistry that enabled it to thrive with such a significant trajectory is fantastic, but it's not surprising. Brands that pay attention to the cues, and that are daring enough to invest in what they see in market, are the ones that get the disproportionate response from consumers once they attach themselves and shape that culture. Of course, it's all about following where the budgets come from. - Yeah, you know, Rika, just to touch upon that, I think when we look at popular culture, right, and I'll call it things that go pop, it's this conflict, this inherent conflict between we want to be at the cutting edge, and we wanna show our consumers that we're shaping culture, and that we're listening to the signals that they're putting out, but we also need things that are large enough to move products at retail in provincial China or in provincial Vietnam. And there is an inherent conflict in that. And we're working on a couple of projects recently where that's come into play. Having said that, if you only look at the things that are largest and most significant, you have less ability to shape culture, right? You have more ability to follow culture. And for some brands, that's fine. For others, it really doesn't work. So I think the question really is an internal one within the brand, which is how daring are we willing to be? How much is that concept of shape and culture part of what we do? And how much of what we do is really around simply being involved in the largest intellectual property where we may not have helped to create it, we may not have helped to popularize it, we're simply helping people to access it. And I think there's validity to both of those, but the brand really needs to understand what their role is gonna be. - Shilpa, any guardrails that you can give to marketers on navigating this based on what Michael was saying? I know that you and I have spoken at length before about some of the more local or regional pockets of culture. For example, everyone talks about K-Pop, but in Indonesia, things like Danglin Pop is really big, but that might not be right for certain kinds of brands as much as we wanna advocate for that. So what would be your advice to marketers on navigating this? - Yeah, I would like to go back to Coca-Cola that Michael talked about. And I think for me, that's been a great case of really spotting that, I would say, regional niche opportunity, yeah? They started, of course, music is a big passion point for the youth. And they started Coke Studio in Pakistan way back in 2008, right? As a very, very, very popular TV series where they brought established artists together with emerging artists. And that really created a new genre of music. And having seen the success of that, they extended it to another country like India. I mean, can you imagine that India was a follower and this was actually born in a much smaller country like Pakistan. They extended it to the Philippines, to the Middle East. And from there, it was like a side bet in a market. And today it's become a springboard for a global engagement platform of Coke Studio, which they launched in 2022, where artists from across the world are coming together and really creating deep fandoms and inspirations. So I would say that as very eloquently put, Michael said that it's always about spotting what's coming, what could be next or even participating in creating a new narrative. And because of the connected world we live in today, and the borderless world, it can become a big, powerful pop culture platform for the brand. So I don't think it's about the big or small or the small or big or the regional or global. It's where these movements are being born and really being in touch with your communities and your audiences and feeling the pulse and even kind of setting the pulse. Great marketing starts with great insights, and that's what TMRE, the Market Research Event, is all about. October 28th to 30th in Las Vegas, you'll spot what's next, turn data into action, and connect with leaders shaping how brands understand their customers. Get your pass at informaconnect.com/tmre and save 25% with code WORK25. What this conversation so far is making me think about is whether we are inadvertently putting ourselves in boxes and limiting our potential. It really does not matter where it came from due to the hyperconnected nature of the internet, anything can go viral. And maybe that's what's different about this era of pop culture. It's really being fueled organically from the ground up faster than ever before. What do you think, Michael? I think the pace with which trends can grow and virality takes place is unlike anything that we've ever seen before. The downside of that is that the downward trajectory is also equally as aggressive. I've long believed that the world is borderless, especially when it comes to cultural content. There's a fluency with which fans around the world engage with one another. Shilpa mentioned BTS Army earlier, and we've done a tremendous amount of work around BTS on behalf of our clients. You know, that is a global fandom, a borderless fandom, and it's no different than being a Manchester United or a LA Lakers fan. No matter what country you're in, if you identify, same as religion, same as your sexual orientation, same as the type of sneakers that you might wear, you're gonna see somebody else who's giving off a cue that they're a member of your community and you're gonna respond appropriately. So the borderless nature of the world from a cultural perspective has never been stronger even though the world is more bordered now than it ever was before from a political perspective. I think this concept of niche first mass and how things grow is an interesting one. I don't really think of the concept of niche as something being small anymore. There isn't anything that is niche. There are just things that people don't know about, and it's not niche to the end consumer, right? It's niche to the people who are hearing about it for the first time, and then it's no longer niche as it grows. So Rika, your home country is the Philippines, and if we look at the growth of Peapop or Buddhats, right, which is very unique to that country, and now the sound is growing around the world, or if we think about Afro beats coming out of Africa, or we think about this kind of reverse cultural exchange, there's an artist in India named Hanuman kind, right? This is fantastically creative and fun and aggressive guy, and you look at him and you're like, "Wow, that kind of looks familiar." He's kind of like the Indian M&M. So he's taking his cues from an artist from 20 years ago. He's localizing it. He's making it relevant in his own country, but now he's popularizing his sound and the Indian sound, the South Asian sound across the world. So I think it is this ping-ponging or this bollying of culture back and forth, but I don't really think of things as niche. There's just stuff that isn't talked about. - Yeah, I would just like to build on that, Rika, just to say where as the world is getting more polarized, pop culture is becoming, you know, more homogeneous. So you look at like the US and Mexico, you look at regional Mexican music and how it's really getting popular in the US, right? So for me, like as Michael said, there's nothing called niche. Niche is the new mass in the making. It's just about like discovering it and scaling it because it is fascinating. - Talking to both of you crystallized something for me, and you can tell me if I'm completely wrong. We've been talking a lot about passion points on this podcast, on work and whatnot, but actually what's really powerful about passion points and why we are centering more on it is that it gives brands the permission to transcend traditional boundaries and connect with consumers in ways they couldn't have done before. - Absolutely, that's fundamentally why I'm in this industry. You know, you can choose your toothpaste or your Coca-Cola, you know, off of the flavor or the variants that's in market and that is front of shelf or front of the cooler box, or you can choose it based upon a different cue that you've gotten from another area of your life in which that product is associated with something that you're very passionate about or that brings relevancy to it. So, you know, inherently, I believe in everything that you've just said, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do here is to help marketers leverage something that people care about more than they care about the product, right? Most young women around the world care about BTS more than they care about any brand, but for brands that embrace the role of being an enabler or a celebrant of the BTS fandom, they have the ability to attach themselves, to shape that relationship with the consumer and to benefit from that. So, I think there's a tremendous amount of borrowing going on and I think that's a good thing. - Last few questions to wrap up the conversation. If pop culture is the new soft power, could leaning too heavily on it make a brand dependent on trends it doesn't control? How do we move away from a very short-term approach to leveraging pop culture? - Yes, my advice to brands unsolicited as it might be is never fall into the trend trap. Not every trend is for every brand. And that's why it's not a very impulsive thing that you do. You still have to think it through. Who are your audiences and communities that you wanna be relevant to, connected with? And what are their passion points? And it's not just always about making headlines to short-term buzz, but you also have to build your brand. And that comes when you really identify your cultural not star and then identify pop cultural territories that would really make you stand out, differentiated, unique and affiliated to your communities. So, it's a balance of both. We are always doing temporal discounting, which is the here and now is very important. Who cares about later? That's the balance that needs to be exercised. And also, you don't wanna jump on a trend that your competitor or someone who may not be a competitor or be part of your adjacent category is already being associated with. So, a lot of caution to be exercised here and not just go and kind of exercise group think because that can be very, very dangerous. - Just to build on that Rika, and it's a great question. There is a very slippery slope that any marketer can find themselves on. So, if I'm selling an ice cream and I wanna enlarge the addressable audience or enlarge my share of cultural wallet by associating with some aspect of pop culture, shaping culture, that's great. And if I do it well, if I work with a marketer like Shilpa or an agency like Culture Group, my sales are gonna rise, the brand love's gonna rise and retail is gonna be excited and is gonna want more the following year. And I've then gotta go out and I've gotta find something that is equally good or better than I just had or my numbers are gonna go down. I'm gonna lose the facings at retail, I'm gonna lose the customer relationship. So, I go out and I find something that's exciting and dynamic and I present it in a really great way. And I hit it for the second year. Now, I've probably taken a little bit of a spotlight off of my own brand at the expense of putting a spotlight onto my IP partner. And I've got a situation where sales have risen 15, 20, 30% over the two years. Now my budgets are caught for some reason, broader economic challenge. I don't have money to go out and invest in the pop culture space. And I've gotta hit the same numbers and I have de-emphasized the role of my own brand in the past two years. That's a real collision course that I think a lot of brands find themselves on. And we haven't always found a solution to that other than trying to have some of the balance that she'll get referenced. - So, we started this podcast talking about all the different ways that the dynamics of pop culture is changing. And of course, the other big technological force upending everything is AI. Michael, how do you see AI development impacting how pop culture is consumed and leveraged by brands, especially with algorithms now shaping what's popular, flooding the feed with AI generated content and making IP ownership more difficult? - I think on the one hand, it's gonna be fantastic because the things that we like and that historically consumers have trended towards will be in greater abundance going forward because of large language models and machine learning and AI. Just this morning, I read an article that OpenAI has announced that they are going to be producing an animated film. The budget is $30 million, whereas the budget for a normal theatrical release animated film is about $300 million. And it's gonna take them nine months in development and production, whereas a normal lead time is about three years. And I think it's phenomenal that we will be able to look at the success of animated storylines over the last 30 years, come up with these really cool characters that are cute and lovable and it can be in market nine months later. That's great. I think from an artistic standpoint, we're gonna lose out on the amazing creativity that we have around the world because there will be a lag between how the creative community knows and understands how to partner with AI technology and the rate with which the technology can be used, which is obviously gonna be much faster. So it's exhilarating and exciting and tremendously frightening. But I really do applaud some of the companies in Hollywood for embracing the concept of identity and IP ownership and trying to find a way to work with the technology as opposed to against it. - All right, last question for the both of you. If you're advising a CMO today, where would you tell them to place their bet in pop culture for the next three years? - I would pay as much attention to anime as possible. The storylines, the IP, where the creativity behind the anime is coming from and that doesn't always mean Japan. And I'd look at ways at embracing all of those aspects in my marketing. The second thing that I would do if I was a CMO today is I would hire a team of three people. I would hire a cultural insights lead, I'd hire a creative strategist and I'd hire somebody who's commercially driven. I'd make sure that they were under the age of 30 and I wouldn't make them come to the office and I would give them as much freedom as possible. I think that overwhelmingly, creativity lends itself towards youth when it comes to the pop culture realm. And there are a lot of brands that are probably not embracing youthfulness as much as they should. - Shilpa, is your answer anime as well? - Well, I'll start with, like, there is no formula, right? It's like, I believe that it's not about jumping onto the next big trend in the making or the big trend that already has made it big. But if you're going to really force me into answering Rika, I definitely believe in anime to gaming IPs. Look at the success of Black Mids Wukong or Solo Leveling and what's going on there. But I also think that the whole space of trendy toys is still going very strong and we'll see more innovative things happening here. So look at like Crybaby, right? I think it would be perfect for a beauty brand that really wants to break stereotypes to come in and take it to the next level. So, yes, I would go on. I would bet on both these spaces moving forward. - Fantastic. Well, thank you so much to both of you for your time and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. And if you like what you heard, please subscribe to the Warg Podcast or go on Warg.com to read all the amazing insights we have on this topic. Until next time, thanks for listening. (gentle music)