Kuminga BIG Help To Timberwolves? + NBA Awards Predictions

(upbeat music) Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, what you're doing on Thursday afternoon here in this lovely late August time. I'm really easing into the off season now, fully in it. Don't bother me, don't ruin my flow. Joining me from Dallas, Texas, Band-McMath. - Howdy, partner. Late August, my time of year? - I didn't know any better. - I would say that you are wearing some free gear on your shirt there. Mona-- - I don't know why in high school, but I have a family connection. - How do you say it? - Moana Lua. - Okay, what's the other word? No, what's the word below? - I don't know how to pronounce that one. Menihune. - There you go. - So, my cousin Brandon, cousin via marriage, was the head coach there. He has now moved over to a private school and has yet to send me any free gear. So maybe this will spur delivery. - I feel like that's the only, one of those shirts walking around Dallas today. Is that what you want to bet on that? - What's our top story, McMahon? - You're a guy. Jonathan Caminga to the Minnesota Timberwolves. I mean, this is a marriage, perhaps a temporary marriage of convenience, but look, man, say what you want to say. There is interest in Caminga. There is interest in the Timberwolves. This is an interest in deal. - It is an interesting deal. I'll give you that. He's getting a two year, he's getting a one year plus a player option, which is basically set up for, and like you said, the wolves are in real need of a starter power forward. Caminga is in need of a team where he has a big role that he can go back to the market next year and try to get the contract that he's wanted. And this is, he has wanted a starting role for a long time and that's what he's getting here from day one and they needed it. And he actually is gonna get more money than I thought he would get when he signed with the wolves. The wolves are gonna have to create a roster spot. - They're gonna have to figure out what probably to dump Josh Green to be able to get to the taxpayer middle level and standard of the second apron. - Right, so they've only got about three and a half million right now, I think. So they have to do that. And I guess they could, so Saturday is the day that they would have all. There's a couple of players who are looking at possibly being waived and stretched by Saturday. If you don't, wave a player by Saturday as their contract can't be stretched. So for example, the calves recently traded for Kim Whitmore and he's likely to be waived and stretched. But between now and Saturday, the calves will look for options there. That's why James Harden hasn't signed his contract yet as an example. But anyway, that's either here nor there. So the wolves are gonna take, you know, bite the bullet on Josh Green. Who, you know, is the rotation edge rotation player? - When he's healthy, he's a solid bench player. - Somebody won't, he will get another job. - For sure. - Was what I will say. So they're, you know, they're taking a little bit of a bite on that to create some more money for Kumingo. But look, let's just be honest, Kumingo has been hoping for a couple of years that he could land a big contract and it just hasn't happened. And we've gone over it with that as agent on. It's been a frustrating time for him. - Been a frustrating time for you. (laughing) - Well, my whole thing was I, you know how I feel. - You feel there's been too much spotlight on a guy who's not yet proven that he's a starting caliber player in the NBA. - Correct, and I wish him all the best. And I think if you look at the way the contracts went to last two years, I was not alone in thinking that. - Sure. - But he made $20 million last year and he'll make-- - Six and change. - Six and change. You'll make about $27 million over two years, which is about mid-level money, little by hair less. - And he turned down a three year deal from the Lakers, according to Shams, it would have paying about 12 per. And apparently the Lakers were recruiting them to be their starting power for. Now, what he's saying is I would rather have one year at sixish and three at 36 because he thinks he's gonna make clearly more than mid-level money coming off of this deal. - Right, the Lakers were interested in bringing him in via sign and trade. And all sign and trades have to be at least for three years, I believe. And they don't have to be guaranteed for three years, they have to be for three years. And so Caminga didn't want to be in a three year deal. So this is one of those things where, yeah, he turned down more money, but he turned down more money understandably because even though he'd make more this year, he would want to beset himself up. And so he's betting on himself. Listen, we praise guys like Fred Van Vliet for betting on themselves. He's betting on himself. And more importantly than the Caminga story, it's more of a story of the overall situation with the wolves. They came into this summer pretty hamstrung in terms of what they could do in terms of adding to the team. And they recognized that they had to get and some help in the back court. They had to get him somebody to take some pressure off. He, you know, him when he was getting these double teams. He's still going to get double teamed. I would imagine, but getting Lamello, it's a gamble, but I'm not sure the Julius Randall Lamello ball connection. I'm sorry, Julius Randall and Edwards connection was taking the pressure off the ant. It just wasn't. Well, yeah, and they needed to get and somebody who ant looked at as a potential long term co-star. And then this, you know, this freeze ant up to play off the ball a lot, not to have to be the primary facilitator. And basically played out a position as a point guard all of last season. Now they pay to heavy price, not just in what they, you know, forget the players, like Julius Randall, Osweed, but in the pick that they gave up. You know, it's a heavy price on a player who's not yet proven that he can drive winning on a consistent basis in the mellow, but that's the risk they took. And in doing so, they created a massive void at power forward that obviously was appealing for Jonathan Cumminga to step into because what does it Cumminga need? He needs opportunity. He needs minutes. And Minnesota is telling, hey, you are starting power forward. You step into training campers are starting power forward. Yeah, he needs opportunity. Ant play a significant role in recruiting Cumminga. You know, Cumminga was sitting on this decision for some time here. Had these other options. I think Shams mentioned the trailblazers. Who else did he mention? Believe the bulls. That's right, the bulls. The bulls were a team that was mentioned to me. I think at one time the bucks were considering it, but he dragged his feet long enough where he didn't get to go to Paris with the Timberwolves. That's the one thing Josh Green got out of getting traded to Minnesota was a free trip to Paris. Was it free? Well, apparently Ant and Lemmello come for the cost. So yeah. All right, sounds great. Do you think he got to sit in business class or do you think it was premium economy for Jonathan? (laughing) I have to check into that. I know you've got something to tell you. You're part back next spot. You are our travel reporter. Yeah, well, you fly as a six foot four guy with no extra legroom, so I can't help you. I'll once recently and not because I wanted to. Yeah, no kidding. All right, anyway, yeah. So the Timberwolves, so Ant was from what I understand, Ant was played a significant role in talking to Cumminga. As did Chris Finch. Chris Finch had to present a vision to Cumminga. I think he talked about this. I'm not sure if it was the Lemmello press conference or whenever he was doing a press conference this summer, but he, you know how Bob Myers came on to the Rich Paul's podcast and like made that pitch to LeBron, like your best opportunity is with the Sixers LeBron. Chris Finch essentially did that. I'm sure he said it to him privately, but Chris Finch essentially did that. Talking about how Jonathan your best opportunity is here. Like we're gonna do things for you and I'm sure he said some of the same things directly to him or at least to his agent. And so Finch definitely played a role, obviously. I'm sure there were other wolves that were involved as well, but obviously Ant, and you know from what I understand, Ant was very excited. Ant from what I am told is very pleased by the wolves off season going to get Lemmello making this deal happen for Cumminga. But you know, Ant has been, you know, I don't think Ant's a guy who is like stews and is angry. Like, you know, it's just the last time we saw Ant, he was congratulating the other team with five minutes on the clock or whatever it was. - I don't think he was thrilled with that situation. - I think that's true. So, you know, look, they, there was a significant roster shakeup since then, you know, Ant has been on board and I would say even involved with every move that they've made. And now you've got a team, you know, one of the few teams that has advanced to the playoffs. I'll say it should have last few seasons, including a couple of Western Conference finals appearance. But I feel like Minnesota's got this like wide range of potential outcomes to next season. I mean, there is definitely outside bringing in Romello and and and Kaminga. And there's also the potential for things to go completely haywire. So, you know, it's going to be a fascinating deal. And I think a lot of this for Kaminga in particular, it's like, if he arrives in Minnesota, feel like I've got to prove that I'm a star, this could get real messy, real quick. They're not bringing him there to be a star. Well, that's supposedly what you talk about before you do this. Right. You know, what's your role is going to be? They need him to be a high quality, complimentary star. Which, by the way, is what Steve Kerr was trying to get him to embrace being a complimentary player. And obviously that relationship didn't exactly bear fruit. Right. Well, look, here's the thing. I remember being around Aunt three summers ago, and he was touting how excited he was about then signing Shake Milton. So, I know if that's a shake, but, you know, like he's excited about now. When he needs to be excited as a year from now, when he signed the extension. And listen, if the extension was now, maybe he would sign it. Maybe he would be excited about this enough to sign it, you know, and maybe he thought that the thing that Lamella was going to be a perfect fit. And maybe he won't be a perfect fit. It's just not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to be honest. The time where Aunt has to feel really good about the wolves this year from now. And also, if we're being honest, there's more optimism, I think, from fans about Lamella going to Minnesota than there is from like other front offices around the league. Like this was not looked at. This was looked at as a significant gamble by Tim Connelly, who is known as a riverboat gambler. He is, for sure. And look, all that matters is the way Aunt feels about it. So if the event is excited about it and is excited in a year, they will have done their job. Well, let's just talk about Kaminga's fit, though. I mean, they needed the starting power for it. They don't have to play Jaden McDaniel's out of place. They can bring to soon move off the bench now, which is like that's a, he's a hell of a six man. That's a great role for him. You know, so not only does this feel the void in the starting lineup, but it does, you know, helped the depth just because you've got like a six man of the year candidate, I believe. But again, I think a lot of this comes down to Kaminga's willingness to adapt his game to try to be a complimentary player to try to fit in. There's going to be space and concerns. He's not a great shooter. Jaden McDaniel's three point shot is kind of been up and down over the years. I think that's going to be critical now, and to hell the shooter. The mellow ball is a, you know, you should, you're going to guard him and you're going to guard him out to 30 plus feet because he'll launch it and you know, he the percentages aren't awesome, but he's a threat for sure. But with Gilbert and Kaminga, you know, Finch is going to have to figure out some space and issues, but Kaminga's got to be a finisher. He's got to get off this idea that he's a ball and hand creator and you know, Kerr tried to talk him into being a Sean Marion type of player, you know, an Aaron Gordon type of player. The Sean Marion thing's funny because Steve Kerr traded him for a washed up shack when there's the suns. Yeah. Actually got death threats for doing so. But you know, that's like there's room to really have a breakout type of season in that role. You're not going to get a max type of contract off of that, but to get a nice contract off of that. But again, I just think if he, if he wants to believe, hey, I'm a primary creator, it's going to be a mess because they've got two guys who are much better suited to that role and is never proven to be efficient as that type of player. Well, in terms of spacing, Julius Randall had a horrible three point shooting season last year. So Kaminga wasn't great. He shot 35% on three a game, but you know, he would probably say if he had played more minutes, he would have gotten better percentages, which may be true. But he hasn't historically been a great three point shooter, great spacer, but the, the, there was a sub for Randall there. You know, they're going to, you know, they're not going to get worse on that front. Right, but they lost even Jinzo. I mean, to bring in Nello and lost even Jinzo in talking to people Minnesota. Now, here's the thing about a tourney killies. I'm having conversations just this week with some people about expectations, something we're going to talk about later in the pop, but I was having some conversations about expectations for some teams and we were talking about Dame Willard and talking about Tyrese Halliburgan. And they're like, you know, just a little bit out of Jason Tatum last year, you know, he had a re-injury like you just, you just can't assume anything with this. And so they're, they're talking about this with Damon and Tyrese and warning me about this and those guys are 16, 17 months off off their injuries. And so the idea that you could count on Don Tay for anything this year, I just, I mean, I don't think that they are having said that. I think they harbor a hope that Don Tay could have returned before the end of the season. But I feel like this is my 24th NBA year covering the league. I feel like I've said that about guys with torn killies in before, but I've just been a report back that they're not going to put any expectation, but they are quietly hopeful that they do get something from Don Tay this year. And they're, you know, they're not planning on trading them. Okay. But, but for the time being and for at least the first half plus of the season, I would say they lose that volume 3 point shooter. And then Nazari was a volume 3 point shooter who obviously he's gone as part of the military. So they, you know, they've got some, for a team that's, that's right up against the apron are the hard cap because in that trade, they hard cap themselves. For a team that's right up against the hard cap, having got like Deven Chenza, who's on their books and doesn't play, you know, it's, it's tough. So more hoop collective podcast after this. But all right, I had another free agency situation get settled since we last spoke and that was Benedict Mather and doing a deal to go to New Orleans. New Orleans is first significant move of the off season, signing him to a one plus one. Now, this deal is not done. It's not going to be a sign-in trade because again, it's a one plus one. You can't do that in a sign-in trade. But the Pelicans are only about three million below the tax and signing him to this would put them into the tax, which they don't want to do. So there's going to be a corresponding move that you're going to see beforehand. The Clippers have come to terms that they're not going to match anything and they're going to let Mather and go. There may be a trade that ends up happening, but we'll see what goes on there. Again, I don't think they can sign and trade them, but I learned something new every day. The interesting thing about this big man is it's essentially a one-year contract. He's got the second-year player option to protect himself. It's essentially what his qualifying offer was for, maybe even slightly less when the numbers come in. This was, despite him being in that trade for Zubach, I think both sides were moving on from each other here. He was in that trade for Zubach. I mean, he got shot and scores and points for the Clippers, but he was in that trade because of salary filler and because the Pacers were ready to move on from him. This guy was the sixth pick in the draft in 2022. Two teams now have willingly moved on from him and it's not that he lacks talent. I mean, this is a guy who he absolutely looks the part of the big time wing score. Six, five, five muscular, explosive. I can get his own shot seemingly at will, and by the way, he's had some big time playoff performances. I mean, he had a game in the finals, I believe. I think it's 30-point game. I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I think it was sort of the Benedict Madden experience. I'm going to look and see what he scored the next game because. It was the roller coaster, and that's kind of been who he is. It's been a roller coaster. Again, it's one thing to say, "Hey, this dude can score. This dude can get his own shot," whatever. It's another thing to be able to do that and contribute to winning. I mean, for his career, he's under 50% just to tick on her, but under 50% effective fuel low percentage, which is really inefficient. Last year, he shot at 43 from the floor. I believe 32 from three-point range. Here was his finals games two years ago in the 25 finals. Look, his minutes in opportunity, there were some games when he got two shots and some games when he got 11. But when you're looking to make a major investment in a player, when you see this sort of output, so game one, he had five points, game two, 14, game three, which was the big win that the Pacers had to take a two-one lead, where we were like, "Whoa, because they kind of stole game one, and then okay, see it came back," and sort of pounds at them in game two, and like game three was like, "Is this real or not?" And he had 27 in that game, and then he scored 17, the next three games combined. And then in game seven, he had 24. I think he kind of had a big second half. He played 33 minutes in that game. But even in the Eastern Conference finals, when they beat the Knicks, he had one game where he scored no points, one game where he scored two, one game where he scored four, and then in game four, he had 20, and in game five, he had 23. So, Obviously, very talented, but how do you judge? - Well, at this point last year, Rick Carlisle was publicly declaring, hey, Benedict Mattern's gonna be our starting small forward this year. - They were hoping that. - Like, he's gonna give him a chance, we're gonna give him that opportunity, and they gave him that opportunity, and then they moved him before the deadline. So, again, he's young and talented, but there are a lot of similarities to Caminga, just in the sense of like, you don't doubt the athleticism, the size, you can see why he was a relatively high lottery pick, but you question whether any of that's going to translate to him being able to be a consistent contributor to a winning team. - Right, and so they obviously drafted, you know, a combo guard in Keaton-Woggler, a two guard who kind of plays the same position. So, I'm not sure that that, you know, getting him with the number five pick, altered the way they were thinking here, but I'm sure it played a role, especially if, you know, head, Mattern, let's say Mattern came back on a similar deal in LA, one plus one. You know, he's basically playing in a make good contract situation and you're trying to, you know, you're trying to bring along your high lottery pick. So, that's a factor, but I know that, you know, they obviously ended up giving him the qualifying offer, but there was word going around the NBA in June that the Clippers might not even make the qualifying offer and just be okay with letting Mattern walk, which I was like, wow, really? Because I thought he was a significant piece of that trade and they obviously ended up doing that. They're gonna end up, I think, pulling the qualifying offer. So, it is what it is. One other piece of NBA news that came out in the last 24 hours and the trailblazers just officially announced that Shaden Sharp, Torres, Maniscus last week in a workout and had surgery this week, and he will be re-evaluated in six months, re-evaluated. So, maybe not season ending, but major season impacting him, McMahon, and he missed half of last season with the leg injury and had a good year. He averaged 21 points for them. You know, Portland obviously finished pretty strong. He was playing off Denny Avia and, you know, had a season where he was sort of taking a step forward and they signed him to a pretty significant contract extension. And this is obviously a setback for the Blazers. - Yeah, the extension was in place before last season. But, yeah, we put up some numbers. And again, you know, another guy, this is the same theme as Caminga and as Madden, like, what was he? He was the seventh overall pick in 2022, 23 years old, like, the athleticism absolutely just jumps all like he's one of the highest flyers in the NBA. You know, he scored last year and then come playoff time, you know his playoff numbers? - I didn't look him up. I don't remember him doing anything. - Well, yeah, well, you remember accurately. He averaged 7.2 points, 41% shooting in 13.4 minutes. I mean, it was his first playoffs and they were out. They were overmatched. I mean, they were overmatched. - The question with him, and by the way, this is true. It's not just about what's he doing on their offensive end, but obviously the defensive end. And honestly, this is an unfortunate way to alleviate a little bit of the log jam that the Blazers had in the back court. But they, you know, they still like, they still got to figure out. Okay, you got the job, Dame, Drew Holiday, scoot Henderson. Like, those are four guys who all probably expect to play a lot of minutes. How's that all gonna work? And again, if you had sharp, you know, sharp can play some three, but it's a, there's gonna be a big time log jam. There's still a bit is to a certain degree. But it's concerning also a guy whose game is based so much on being just an absolute elite athlete to start having leg injuries stack up. - I will best to him. The Blazers guard situation continues to evolve. Is that appropriately, is that, is that said gently enough? - It is. And listen, Scoot Henderson's role is a pretty significant curiosity. - Agree. As is whether he gets a contract extension. You know, we've only had one of the rookies, rookie extensions get done, and that's Victor Wombanyama. So, I was just talking to an executive yesterday about that, was like, what have you heard on rookie extensions? And I was like, why say rookie? I mean, guys in the rookie contracts. Yeah, guys going to last year the rookie deal, yeah. - I was like, I have heard nothing. - Look, I know both of Thompson twins, their teams would definitely love to get them signed to an extension, but if it was easy, it'd be done. And as you said, the fun max is not a thing anymore. There, these negotiations are, there's much more tough negotiating going on than there was on the previous CBA, just because of these teams. You know, I was talking to a decision maker for a team, yesterday base was like, it's all about room to the apron. Like if you've got room under the apron, you can make trades happen, but with these aprons, like teams are terrified of putting handcuffs on themselves who are trying to build and maintain rosters. - By the way, speaking of that, did you see the statement that the NBA put out on their communication? - Yeah, there was a little bit of sensitivity about the, I didn't know what they were reacting to. I guess there was some reporting on restricted free agency situations. - Well, I just think in general, there's been a lot of criticism of the, you know, just of the CBA. And you know, Jeff Schwartz, the veteran agent coming out a couple weeks ago, making this statement, you know, saying thanks union and all this stuff. And so, they came out with a statement a couple of days ago. And I'll just read it. Yeah, I don't think we need to talk about this a long time. I'll just read it so that you can know, but they're basically defending the idea that restricted free agency is, you know, kills players. So here's the quote from the NBA League office, which they don't make quotes like this very often. Regarding recent media reports, discussing the impact of CBA rules on team bids for restricted free agents. In other words, you know, restricted free agents not getting the offers that they got because of the CBA. Of this year's 12 restricted free agents, two change teams via sign and trade, the most since 2021, two signed off reshades with new teams, tied for the most since 2018, and six agreed to multi-year deals with their current teams. It is not unusual at this point in the offices and then a couple of negotiations remain ongoing. This is before Matheryn and obviously, to Minga did this. And so what I think their point is not that there's been like this bevy of restricted free agent deals. It's not like they're saying, boy, what a great summer for restricted free agents. What they're saying is restricted free agency is always hard. Like there's been two sign and trades this year. That's like the most in five years. It's not like there used to be eight or 12, and now it's down to two and oh my gosh, that's the new CBA has crushed it. It's always been hard to do sign and trades with restricted free agents and two offer sheets. You'd like to think last year there was one offer sheet and it was for a guy who was like undrafted. And one of the offer sheets this year was Musa Cece, which by the way, I was talking to an executive this week, and he was saying that the Mavericks did that buyout for Clay. They got 10 million off their books, but basically gave or eating at least half the contract this year. Little less than half, but yeah. And they kept Cece is an indication that they're, Cece is a big, that they are a little bit worried about lively and gaffer to a lesser extent, but they're still worried about lively. How could you not be? - No, I understand. - Just look at the game's played, unfortunately. - No, right. - And look, the one restricted free agency situation that remains unresolved is a big one. It's Jalen Durham, who the pissant's absolutely positively 100% intend to keep and made it clear to anybody, pursue him in sign and trade possibilities like you're wasting your time. And we'll get into that, I think later. There's still a gap. I would just say that, you know, to back up the league office for this, I covered multiple restricted free agencies that ended in November and December. one like 18 years ago and one like 10 years ago. So the idea of a restricted free agency dragging on in the late summer is, no, it's not new and it's not unique to the CBA. There are other things with this CBA that have irritated people, but I don't think restricted free agency is at the top of the list. I do think this CBA does factor into the difficulty of it. I think it factors into just the general difficulty of teams investing in long-term contracts, you know, I think that has a, it's a big umbrella. All right. This week at ESPN, we did our annual summer forecast where we make predictions, which is why I don't take part in the McMahon, because you know, I never, not once, not once a year. Do I ever make a prediction? But we have been releasing them all week, the, the predicted, the projected standings. My story that I wrote, you didn't even participate in the defense player of the year predictions like, come on. No, Victor is, is slated to, is the projected winner of the defensive player of the year. Yeah, there's one stat that will determine that. Did he play 65 games or not? Probably, probably. But anyway, we had a lot of that. And so I think the one, and I have a piece running on Friday, where I talk to a bunch of executives and coaches, and this is something that Bontemps used to do, and they've sloughed it off on me. That's like, how many other of his, you know, projects am I going to inherit? I'm getting a few of them. Now, the straw poll thing I'm curious about, I don't like enough people to talk to a hundred different people about who they would vote for or so. We'll see, we'll cross that bridge and we come to it. Okay, so the thing that got, that always gets a lot of attention is when the award, the awards are projected, and that came out a couple of days ago. More hoop collective podcast after this. And so the two this year that are most interesting, they aren't just in a lot of years, but our MVP and Ricky of the year. And so the way we do this internally at ESPN, we have a whole bunch of people whose job it is, believe it or not, like dozens of people whose job all, all year long, all day long, all year long is to completely immerse themselves in the NBA. I know we're, we got a scam going, and we talked to all those folks and we get their projections and the MVP, I wouldn't say that the MVP, the way it shook out. McMahon was a surprise, but I was kind of surprised at what happened afterwards. The projected MVP by ESPN's never wrong panel is Victor, Victor, Victor, Wemba Njama, yeah, is that who you voted for? I believe I did. It's reasonable. I can't, I don't have a fault with that. Now, I don't think that's really that controversial, obviously the way you played in the playoffs last year, and you know, he's going to come back with some measure of vengeance, I guess, I don't know. And also, I just think he's an ascending talent who's going to continue to get stronger and more skilled and sabbier and better. Yeah, I think that he, the challenges for him, I think as we watched in the playoffs last year is, what is his best strategy that he employs during a playoff game in a playoff series? Because we saw him at times struggle with stamina, for example, and we saw his impact on games sort of waver a little bit. I have no doubt he's going to figure it out, but in the finals, there were times when the end of the game came and he wasn't able to dominate games as we know he can't. Well, and there was a time when they lost a 29 point lead when they left him on the floor too long and then in hindsight admitted, they put him in a position where he was going to run out of gas. And by the way, the minutes was the biggest knock on his MVP can't see when he campaigned hard last year. He declared himself. I think he, we don't have his official vote, but I think we could project his official vote on himself. Maybe the second place in our poll was Yokech, which is interesting because I think what the voters are saying here is they think that with what's going to be required of him this year. That, and by the way, I he was having he was my my MVP at the first straw poll last year, I voted for him for MVP. I'm pretty sure he was having an unbelievable last year, an MVP season last year before he got hurt. But I think this is a, this is a commentary not as much on Yokech and the other candidates, but on what's going to be needed to carry the nuggets. The other thing you've got here is when B was the clear cut front runner, you know, 102 points in the voting and then two through four, you've got Joker at 31 points. Luca at 28 points and Shay at 26 points, which is basically saying there's a clear front runner and then three guys that we anticipate will be in the mix. And then there's a significant drop off the honest is fifth at eight points, you know, I don't know where K did it up, but like to me that that's that's right. There's four bona fide real deal MVP candidates and when these the clear cut front runner of that four. Right. Well, here's the thing, you know, I think the headline is that Shay is listed as fourth here. Yeah, I think there's just every time you win it, the bar gets higher. Exactly. So if you look at the list of MVP award winners and this is, this is indicative. Here we have, we're only in August, but there's something that happens. You can win two two MVP's in a row, but for some reason, the standard for winning the third MVP in a row, it just, it just gets very, very high. So the last guy to win three MVP's in a row, do you know it is a bird? It was bird in 84 to 86. In that time, let's see, like, and by the way, some of the more, what's the word? Some of the more contested or hot button MVPs were when guys were trying to win their third. So for example, Jordan won in 91 and 92 and then Barclay won in 93, which that is a debated for years MVP, right? LeBron won it two in a row twice and the one time in between, he lost out to Derek Rose, which I think Rose was amazing that year, but a lot of people think that that was a flaw. That was also the year he went to Miami and he sort of faced that issue. You know, when Joker won two in a row and then Embed won his, that led to the big jackass moment. It did. No, no, it didn't. It was. Oh, was the jackass the year before? No, I think it was the, I think it was the first year, Yokeuch won it. Oh, wow. The jackass moment was a straw poll came out and I felt that Embed, this was before the 65 game rule and I felt Embed had played enough games to have a representative season to be an MVP and Embed was like way behind Yokeuch in the last straw poll. And I just didn't like it. I felt that it was unfair and I felt Embed had played enough games. And we got arguing about it and bond times called me a jackass. And you plotted to run him off this pod ever since that's exactly right. It was a five year plan, but I finally came together. And then by the way, and then Embed like went out like within a few days got injured and missed like the most best of the season and Yokeuch was awesome down the stretch and won it and I voted for Yokeuch totally undercutting my argument. And so whatever my point is now it's moved because you got 65 games and that's the standard, but that was the thing. Yoss want to in a row, Yokeuch want to in a row, Curry want to in a row, LeBron want to in a row, two different times, Nash want to in a row, Duncan want to in a row. I mentioned Jordan want to in a row, getting to that third for various reasons. And sometimes it's just been like Curry want to in a row and then they use unanimous the second year, but then they lost as a 73 win team. And the bar became ridiculous and Westbrook had the triple double year, but it's just it's hard to sell people, it's hard to sell the voters on three years in a row. Yeah, Curry, I'm trying to think Curry was already. He's been a six in the next year. That was hardened was second and why I was third and that was really kind of the debate with the year that Russ wanted. And like Shay, last year, again, the bar gets higher even after your first one, but then they were the, you know, I had the best record in the league despite the fact that they were missing a guy who had been all NBA. In the previous year for vast majority of the season and as well as a bunch of other injuries and all the other primary competitors just barely hit the 65 game limit or winby's case need to the NBA cup final boost to get to 65 games and up winning MVP Ryan away at 83 first place votes last year, which I think the straw poll pretty much projected. Yeah, look, I'm just saying that history shows us. And by the way, here we have a situation where even though it wasn't on Shay, the Thunder win were favored to win again and they fall short of expectations. And you can already see it, even in this non scientific little poll that comes out here, you're already seeing Shay slip because there's something about that. third year. I'm just the, as you say, the bar fairly or not will be higher. Yes. All right. You know what? You know what? I think it's pretty well set up for Luca to potentially win his first. Well, just like with Westbrook, the year after Durant left, it helps to have a narrative. And we have a narrative here for Luca and a narrative where the expectations for the Lakers are as low as they've been since La Prada ride. Do you think so? I mean, it's funny that you say that because my non-scientific examination of what you see with their fans is they love the Opsies and moves. They love Kessler. Fans don't vote. What's there over under? They're overunders in the mid 40s. I understand, but you're saying that, well, that's true. That's a fair point. I think fans actually. Oh, that's all started. No, that doesn't happen. Yes. You're correct. They're overunders indicative of this. It's like they're overunders 37 now. No, but my point is if the Lakers, you know, what, look, if they win 53 games, which isn't out of the realm of possibility, if Luca stays healthy and has, like, you don't wonder if he's going to have numbers if the guy plays. He'll put up MVP numbers. If they win 53 games and he's putting up those kind of numbers, I think he's going to have a hell of a case. And by the way, they won't like, dude, Lucas is lean as he's been since his rookie year. Like, if you look at some of the footage that came out of this Slovenia trip that he organized and funded for that whole team, dude, he looks like he is in rate shape. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. He was able to do that last year and so the question is, can he commit to it? And he isn't. Is he playing for Slovenia in this window? I can't know. And he's not. This is the first summer that he has not played for Slovenia. He announced that in the year. And yeah, it's because he wants to spend as much time as possible with his daughters while he goes through that situation. That makes turf a total sense. By the way, speaking of Slovenia, recently, I will probably butcher the name. So I apologize, but there's a 17 year old. I believe it's right about to turn 18. Stefan Jokomovic. Jokis Joc Movic. I totally boshed that. Jok C Movic. Stefan Jokos Movic. Just a fawn. And I can't tell you exactly how to pronounce the last name, but I can tell you ain't doing it right. You are correct. By the way, there's a stud. I don't have the name right in front of me, there's a stud who was dominant in the under 16 year old championships for Latvia, who is actually from the Dallas area. His mom is a Latbian. Plates in Latvia. And anyways, you just, well, I can't, I can't be, I can't be focusing on under 16. We'll leave Jonathan Gavoni and Jeremy would do that. It caught my interest because of his, because his local eyes. Okay. Yeah. Anyway. So he was the MVP of the Eurobasket U 18, which just was in Italy a couple of weeks ago. And there was 23.7 rebounds and, and for us, this again, remember, those are 40 minute games. So, and he is, even though he's only 17 or maybe he's 18 now, or he's turning 18, Yoke Samovic, Stefan Yoke Samovic. Are you looking at the pronunciation that? Yes. Of course. Well, I'm not denying that. I just had to look it up. Yoke Samovic, Stefan Yoke Samovic, Jackson, do your, do your editing stuff where you make me sound not so bad. Don't do that, Jackson. You don't want to work hard anyway. That's a lot of work to make Wendy look good. Jackson, by the way, did look up that the Lakers over under was 45 and half. By the way, I'm going to just tell you your pronunciation of four names ranks right up there with snakegrass among your biggest weaknesses. That's fine. But at least I'm out there trying to learn these guys. Yes. And I'm bringing them to you. He's a discovery. But no, Jeremy, he's a Jeremy Wu discovery, though. Okay. I'm not arguing. I discovered him. I'm just telling you about him. Why do I have to be accused of discovery when I'm, when I'm telling you my bad discovery, discovery guy would on Tim's head knew it land. You're right. Yeah. All right. Anyway, he's going to be draft eligible next year. He's going to be in the draft next year. And I believe it will be a high lottery pick. There's a lot of it. There's a lot of it. And like Luca, it took the route of going to Spain, playing professionally. Is it Baskone? Is that how you say that? Yes. That gives me. Yeah. Please. At least for now is playing for Baskone and in the Spanish league. But Spanish league is one of the best things in the world outside the NBA. So, so we help with the old catch. All right. The other awards we wanted to take a look at when the forecast was rookie of the year. Now when I wrote this piece where I talked to executives, this is the award that got the most talking. And this one was not like MVP, where it was a, you know, Victor and then a golf. This one was very close. Cameron Booser was selected as the pick by the ESPN panel. It was with 61 points. However, we came to that term. Darren Peterson was second at 56, AJ DeBonza, third at 54. So very tight. Caleb Wilson fourth at 32. So reasonable. Yeah. Um, this, this one generated a lot of a lot, you know, so and it's funny. I talked to some people, like multiple people who were like, this is going to be Cam Boosers award. Like he's going to be everything's going to be built around him in Memphis. They're going to, you know, he's, uh, he's been, he's been the leader of every team he's ever been on. He's achieved with every team he's ever been on. I realized Duke did not win the title, but you know, he's been a champion up and down. He's, you know, he's won all these MVPs. He's won all these honors. His situation is totally set up to be featured him. They're like, it's Booser and why are you debating it? You know, if he's healthy, he's going to win it. And then I've got other people who are like, yes, opportunity is very important. Like, for example, one of the reasons you would argue, because Darren Peterson looked pretty damn good in the summer leagues. It's not like anyone. Your case against Peterson's, you know, winning it is an opportunity case because you need to have opportunity to win rookie of the year. It's not an award that's predicated. Number one, you don't got to play 65 games. And number two, you don't necessarily have to be on a winning team. And so it really comes on your opportunity. And they're like, you know, with Lowry Marconon and with Jerry Jackson and with Kianta George and with Ace Bailey, how much is he going to have an opportunity? He'll get plenty of shots. I can assure you that. Well, I agree with you, but I'm just telling you what people said. He will be their starting to gourd. And, you know, I think an argument can be made that it's a better situation for him because he doesn't have the burden of having to carry the offense, like Booster has in Memphis. You know, and you could argue the same about DeBonza in Washington. I'm skeptical. And I talked to somebody else who I really trust. And he's like, look, DeBonza is the best equipped player to do this. He goes last year. Con Kinepple had great opportunity. Yet, you know, they really, as the season went along more and more and more. I mean, he took 10-3s a game. Is Peter soon going to get to shoot 10-3s a game in Utah, you know? And he almost won the award because he had great opportunity, but he said Cooper Flag was the most equipped. And he ended up winning it. And so he's like, he's like, don't overthink it. Don't give me reasons. Just who's the most equipped? The answer is DeBonza. He went number one. And, but it was close. And honestly, it took Cooper Flag when he came back from his injury, having a hell of a finishing kick, you know, like that included a 50-point game. And, I mean, just he went on a tear to flip it. Because remember, Bontons did the bonus "Rookie of the Year" straw poll at the whatever was two-third point of the season. And Con Kinepple was ahead then. And Mike Con Kinepple had the, you know, the horns were one of the darlings of the lead, the biggest surprise of the league at that point. Certainly, they were winning. He was impacting winning. Like the, you know, the advanced numbers were all shining for him. And it took, again, it took Cooper really having a hell of a kick to finish the year, to edge because it came down at first place, versus 56 to 44. And it's a, it is a case where like Cooper Flag had to be the eye for a bad Maverick's team. I lead him in everything. Had the ball on his hands, you know, all that kind of stuff. And Con Kinepple was a hell of a number three option for the Charlotte Hornets, where he was playing with a playmaker who, you know, got him a lot of great looks at those three pointers in the middle of ball. What you're basically saying is Cooper had a hell of an opportunity to be especially because Kyrie was out. And that's, that's reasonable. I am compelled by Caleb Wilson. I think the bulls are going to invest everything into him. And, you know, he doesn't have to stay healthy. He's had some injury issues. But I would be fascinated. I don't mind. I'll get into betting here. But like, that may be the efficient pick. Now, I talked to some scouts and, you know, they were like, look, you know, the thing about Caleb is that there are guys in Chicago who were going to want to put it up. Like, this is going to be a potential really big year for Mattis Pazellis, because this is a year where if you're Busellas, you're trying to prove you're the franchise player or a franchise player because next year's when you get pay. And, you know, Basilis is a guy who, he's not confident in a way that detracts from the team, but he's confident. I mean, this guy believes in himself and, you know, not afraid to, not afraid to go up, you go ahead to head and, you know, take a take it on the chinny comes right back up. But, you know, Basilis is going to be a guy and like, you know, Thiago Sputter should, like Sputter should be focused heavily on what he can get from Basilis and Wilson together. And then, you know, Josh Getty is a high usage player. Uh, you think Norm Powell went to Chicago on a short-term deal? Well, that's launch. That's another one. I didn't even think about that. But, yeah, the guy didn't mention that, but that's exactly correct. So, um, this guy was basically making the case for, you know, basically, this is a question about opportunity. And that's what we're really debating here is what the opportunity to be picking up. We all think that they're all good enough to do it. One that we did this year, we haven't done in the past is we picked scoring champ and Luca with that one, that one kind of favorably. And by the way, getting odds just to kind of emphasize how tight this is Jackson just in his draft games, boozer plus 300. Darren Peterson plus 330. Caleb Wilson plus 350, AJ DeBonza plus 425. So that's as close to four co-favours as you can get. That's true. That's not exactly. I was hoping for a bigger number for Caleb Wilson. Apparently, I'm not alone. Yeah. Uh, anyway, the one thing we did this year that we hadn't done in the past is picking the scoring champ, you know, Shay is one at the last, I think he went the last two years. No, Luca won it last year. Oh, Luca won it last year. Um, Shay won it the year before? Uh, that is accurate. So Luca's won it twice. Luca won it in 24 and he won it two of the last three years, 24 and 26. And I think the idea that with LeBron, not there this year that, you know, Luca, well, be scoring again like he did when he was in Dallas, which is I don't think the worst he did that last year. Look, I have his 33 and a half points per game last year. I know is LeBron took a took a step back a little bit. LeBron also early in the season missed a bunch of games and everything as he was ramping up. So, but yeah, I don't, I mean, picking Luca certainly makes a lot of sense. So Shay was second and Edwards was third in this poll. Yeah. Shay, the year before, I was 32.7 last year, slipped all the way to 31.1. Well, it's a thing. Shay falls out of bed and puts up 30. The question is like, you know, his overrunner is like, is he going to score 33 or 40 or 28? Like he's, he scores 30 every game. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't have a lot of the 50s. You know, he's had a few, but he where Luca, he might score 73. Actually, they tightened up. They let people be a little bit more physical after Luca 73. That's true. That was, and was that the game where he like litter? Well, he's done it a bunch of times. He's just like thrown in side-arm shots. Like, I mean, he scored every which way you could. That was against the Hawks and it was right on the heels of cat had 70. Somebody else had, I think him be had 70. It was like boom, boom, boom. And then something like, all right, maybe we need to let. And then the call came from Olympic Tower. Like maybe we should let people play a little physical defense. This is getting out of hand. But yeah, no, Luca, when Luca is hitting his step back three, there's not an answer. And the answer then is try to get the ball out of his hands. And obviously we all know he's one of, if not the best, passively as well. And I'm just telling you, man, the condition that Luca appears to be in like it's, it's got a chance to be pretty scary. Well, the thing that Luca does so incredibly well is change speed. He goes fast. He goes faster. And you think he's going to go fast. And when he sees he has the ability to slow down in ways, he takes advantage of his opponents, his ability to. Luca has as good a break as anybody in the league. And it's a combination of like literally the P3 testing, you know, the peak performance. What's that? The P, you know, the place in Santa Opera where these guys go get tested. When he came in the lead, you could put the grass, his graphs over the top of James Harden's graphs. Because that was also like Harden, that's the whole step back thing is the threat of the drive and then the ability to create a ton of space. They both do that. But then Luca has that like lean Luca still weighs probably 240. He has that and the ability just. He's not skinny. He's just skinny. Yeah, he's still like the powerhouse has the ability to bully people. I want to get some paint and unbelievable touch and creativity in there. There was one little thing that I'll throw in there. We asked a bunch of questions and I I stayed away from this and asking the executives when I did my piece because a lot of them are hypotheticals. You know, and I just I think that just puts everybody in a bad position when you're asking those folks. But we asked which team we thought would be the most disappointing team, which is something we do every year. And the Lakers finished the top of that. Which was I think I guess it all depends. Because if they're overrunner is 45, the standard is more reasonable. If the standard is the low 50s, like they did the last two years, you know, because you know, the overrunner implies that they will take a step back. But there's a lot of excitement about Kessler and the other guys that they sign. So I want an overrunner on Lucas dunks this season. How many do you think he had last year? Okay. I remember him. Him and Reeves. I got to look up Reeves number. Him and Reeves had the bet. I think the better question is how many dunks is Walker Kessler going to have? Well, I mean Kessler will have a ton. Kessler will have maybe 200. How many do you have last year? Last tree played five games. I know. You got to be healthy to dunk. Okay. Good point. How many dunks have four dunks last year? How many do you have like five years ago? Wouldn't you give us that stat? I'll give you by season for Luca in in reverse order. Four, one. Oh, you bet. Oh, 12, 7, 11, 14, and as a rookie, 25. Okay. I just told you, I think he's just lean as he's been since his rookie year. So I'm curious to see how many times he dunks. What set set the overrunner? Set it. I'm going to put it at seven and a half. And what are you taking? I'll take the under. I'll take over seven and a half. You take an under. I'll take under. Not because I think he's going to a dinner bet. A dinner bet. I mean, I don't really feel, we'll find something else to bet on. I don't really feel like defending this one all year long. You just made the bet. Now we just have to decide what the terms are. Fine. I'll buy you dinner, but the, but it's not, I don't like want it to be brought up to me like in April and you're like, I told you he's got 14 and you thought he wasn't going to be able to jump. I, I just, I just think it's not part of his game. I would never be unethical and rubbing something in your face. Well, if Bonteps is here, he would say, well, make sure you write that down in ink because he'll probably try to change the terms. If Luca has like no dunks, Bonteps who owes me two different bet settlements. Yeah, he probably would. Does he owe you two? Two. The spurs and Peyton Watson's contract. Peyton Watson. By the way, Peyton Watson, guy who did pretty well as a restricted for Asian. Yeah, not included on the, that was part of the sign-and-trade, but he got sign-and-trade. So the NBA could have used that. The two sign-and-trades, both guys did well. Like Walker Kessler is the, I believe, seven? Five is paid center right now. Is that right? If you don't count, chat is a center. There are seven centers making more than 30 this year. Kessler being the seventh and gets to run pick and roll with Luca. That's not a bad situation then. Peyton Watson got 22 year going to a team Cleveland that blazes a container. They both did pretty damn well. As I was talking to executives this week on, you know, doing our awards thing, I just had this guy throw in there. I didn't even ask about it. He was like, by the way, I love this Peyton Watson move. I go, really, he goes, I think he's poised for a breakout. I think it's a great move for Cleveland. Like he was just, you know, effusive over the top. That's in. I've heard mixed reviews on it. Yeah. Well, this is the thing. Like these people that we're talking to, like these are all like lifetime, like these guys who have been in the league, not all of them, but a lot of 20 plus years and like seen so much and, you know, evaluate so many players and it's fascinating when you, it's fascinating when you like, we'll talk about the same topic to two different people and two people are like, you know, a lot of times are sort of in the middle. But, you know, like one guy going, oh, man, I cannot believe the calves gave Watson $90 million based on one month. You know, and then I got this other guy who does player personnel his job for his team is to do pro personnel. And by the way, I would say his team has done pretty well. And like, you know, pro personnel like, you know, margin moves in the last couple of years. I would just say is, you know, I respect him. And he's like, I love it. I love it. So that's the NBA, man. I mean, that's the NBA. So, all right, we love our producers. Today, Mark Tucker and Jackson are on with us, but we got more people behind the scenes, Miles is back there, Devon. He's on a little earlier. Thank you all of them. Thank you for all of you. Actually, I want to say one thing before we go. - Oh, great. - I want a soap box. - Love a good windy soap box. - Let's go. - Yeah, I, um, so, what's the rush? - Do more of these, like a, you know, so good. - A sponsorship, yeah. - Like we have with SoFi. I just want to say, LeBron and the PGA Tour made an agreement and announcement this week. First off is still a jaw-dropper to me, that LeBron is this into golf. I mean, talk about something I would never believe, you know, 15 years ago, A, that LeBron will still be playing and B, that he would be like crazy into golf. But LeBron has done so many things for his hometown of Akron that is inflow, that is, um, influence kids. Like, and like even now, like school just started and like because the, his I promise school, you know, is now is not brand new. Like it's easy to, um, it's easy to forget. It's still, you know, uh, impacting so many kids every single day. And like I remember, - Not only hundreds. - I remember back in 2015, um, going to Cedar Point, which is a famous amusement park in Ohio, and LeBron made this announcement to like a thousand of his kids that he brought there and paid for them to go in and everything for the day. And it's like I'm giving you all college scholarships. So I made a deal with the University of Akron and you guys are all gonna get to go to college four years for free. And most of the kids were like in third to seventh grade and they didn't like, I think they were like, "Oh, I thought we might be getting free bikes." And like that, okay, that was, and he ended up doing the deal with Kent State University and the University of Akron. And I don't know, I don't have the, I'm sure the foundation could provide with me in 90 seconds how many kids took up on that. But that was 11 years ago. And some of those kids went to college for free because I don't know if it was 50 or 200. But like that was 11 years ago. Those kids were like 12, 13 years old. Those kids are, some of those kids are out of college once it's school because of that. So my point is like he has dramatically done things to impact the people of his community. So let me just say, and you can say that I'm talking about this because it's golf. And yes, the answer is yes. - And because it's Akron. - Firestone Country Club is a, it's a country club. I mean, what am I gonna talk about a country club? But this course-- - I'm in times you played there. Twice. - Only twice, that sucks me. - Probably three times. LeBron has probably played there more this week than I've ever played there. He's a member. It's not about helping the country club, but Akron for decades, like since dating back like the '50s had a PGA or senior PGA event every year. And it was a cornerstone when I was a kid. And by the way, I got the last two years of my college tuition at Ken State paid for by a scholarship that was paid for by the charities that came out of the Bridgestone Invitational or whatever it was, it was a head couple of different names. So I directly benefited from this, from the charities that came out of that event. And look, in like the '90s and 2000s, Tiger wanted, I think seven or eight times. And every year you would go there. And it was this giant event and Tiger was winning it and Phil was winning it. It was like a who's, I mean, Nicholas won it. You know, it was a who's who for years. And unfortunately, LeBron's hometown and my hometown has been in basically a large decay over the last like 30, 50 years or whatever. And it went from the PGA event down to the senior event. And then it was sort of withering and people weren't supporting it and it lost its sponsors. And this year was the last time the PGA tour was there. It was going to, that was it. It was going to, the senior tour was saying goodbye. It's moving away. And then for LeBron, he made a deal with the PGA tour. They're partnering and starting next year, they're going to have a tournament there, which is sort of like a minor league tournament that's part of the PGA tour. And look, it's, it's not going to be Tiger playing there. - Is LeBron going to play in it? - Maybe by then, maybe he'll be trying to. - If you want to get an attention, if he plays in it, I promise you, there'll be TV cameras. - I promise you, right. The point is that Firestone lost its tournament and LeBron makes, does something with a PGA tour and brings something right back to Firestone that a bunch of people can be a part of and can be a part of his foundation. And so, I just want to acknowledge that he's still doing things for his hometown. He didn't sign with the calves this summer, but he's still doing things for his hometown. And yes, teaching underprivileged kids and giving them a place to call is a higher calling than making sure there's a local golf tournament. I understand that. I'm acknowledging that. I haven't talked about and written about the, but this is something he did to help Akron out when it was about to lose something, look altogether. So, I just thought I would say something right here at the end to acknowledge that. So, and I think it's really cool that all these PGA guys, this is my world. I'm the Venn diagram, McMahon, golf and basketball. That's me and for years, there was no connection. Like, when they had the bubble, the only people playing golf, there was like three players, all the referees and coaches. There was no players. Yeah, Steph Curry played a lot, but now all these guys playing golf. - Dude, they should get Steph to play it too. He was born in Akron. - Absolutely. I don't, I mean, Steph could might be able to win it. - If they get LeBron, Steph and you, the three biggest names ever born in Akron, like this thing could be huge. - Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how they look at it. Anyway, awesome stuff by the PGA tour and LeBron to do that. And I love the fact that there's so much golf being, and LeBron's like driving it. But like, I was talking to Kevin Love last week, and like Kevin Love was like totally, and do what he was the guy who organized where they were gonna play golf. And they went up to like Inverness, I know I'm not gonna go off on a tangent. It's a different podcast. Thank you to our producers, thank you to McMahon, thank you for listening and watching the hoop collective. Thank you to LeBron, the PGA tour, for doing something for Firestone under this situation. We will talk to you next week. I really just enjoy how we started with your least favorite topic, Jonathan Comingan, and finish with your favorite golf. Adios me, guys. (upbeat music)