Kristoffer Zetterstrand: Behind the Minecraft Paintings & More

Welcome to the show everybody this week we are interviewing Swedish artist Christopher Zetterstrand a classically trained oil painter and the man behind the famous paintings featured in hit video game Minecraft think of the skull on fire or the hand-letting the match over the table things like that listen to this episode to learn about his story his perspective and how these iconic paintings came to be we are so proud of this episode we hope you enjoy it too have fun and yeah buckle in enjoy the show welcome to the Boston art podcast Boston's premiere our podcast where we talk art culture and philosophy my name is Theodore earthworms and I am Brian Huntress welcome to the show okay great yeah well first things first we just want to say like thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show we're honored to have you and we're really excited to learn about your story and what did this you do thank you nice to be here yeah for sure so where do we where do we find you in the world right now I live in Stockholm Sweden and it's been my home almost forever but I had my studio here since I read you either the Royal College Sharon Stockholm in 2001 and since then I've had the same studio here in the central Stockholm wow and is the Royal you said the Royal Academy or the Royal College is that in Stockholm as well yeah yeah wow that's so interesting can you tell us maybe a little bit about like your background like how what kind of place did you grow up in and what kind of kid were you I grew up here in in Stockholm but we also moved around quite a lot when I was a kid so moved around Sweden yeah but not only we lived for a brief period in in Denmark and then when I was about 12 we lived for a while in in France so yeah yeah so first in the south of France and then I then we lived in Paris so I actually went to school in Paris for a while also but then we moved back to Sweden so that's basically where I've been most of the time but also when I studied at the Royal Royal College Sharon Stockholm I had a opportunity to be an exchange student with the faculty of the Bayes Arthas in Madrid so lived in Madrid for a while also that's such an amazing experience I feel like I I'm jealous I've actually never left the United States never crossed the sea there's a lot to see yeah definitely a lot a lot of sweat planes of grass yeah yeah for sure have you ever been to the States yeah three times actually very cool ones just the sort of vacationing in New York with my wife had some kind of job stuff to do there so I joined her for a brief time and then yeah I went to I did a I did a talk at the Smithsonian in in Washington wow which Smithsonian was it an art museum or history yeah the big museum there okay okay what was your talk yeah that sounds really cool I was talking I was a lecture on my work process and my work so it's actually available to see online I think they have it still oh wonderful still up but I was like in 2011 or something I'm speaking of which that'd be pretty cool to get into so what kind of painting do you do exactly are you an acrylic painter do you work in oils I mean it's it's oil on canvas right I mean when I when I write the titles and the dimensions of the piece and then I write oil on canvas but actually but actually I always start my paintings in in the fast drying medium such as vinyl paint vinyl paint or acrylics just to get the basic composition up and stuff so I start with the really loose sketch in thin acrylics and vinyl mostly and then I and then I and then I continue annoying so that's really interesting I've never heard of somebody using a vinyl is it some kind of you are using a medium mixing with the oil paint or is it some kind of vinyl medium you know it's a it's a I mean vinyl is a type of plastic which is quite quite different from acrylics acrylic paint I mean that's a plastic as well but it's the pigment is distributed in a completely different way compared to vinyl which is sort of a I don't know what's it called the some kind of submersion thingy anyway the the effect is that vinyl paint is more matte and it's it gets us really a special kind of glow to it very intense pigmentation and stuff so that's a good very good start for me because I I very often I want the underpainting to shine through the oil and and vinyl is perfect for that and it's also really I mean it's like I mean if you buy a pre-fabricated like guess so guess so the canvas or something that that's that's a type of paint that's I mean vinyl paint is as good as for for them to stick to it so it's it's a good way to start for me one thing I think is interesting too about what you're saying is that it seems to me that you have a ver- would you or would you say you have like a very classical approach to your painting yeah yeah so would you would you consider like a kind of indirect painting or like I guess I'm kind of curious studying at the Royal College of Art in a in Stockholm how would you describe the kind of lineage of your technique would you say it relates a lot of artists talk about how their work relates to the old masters or old master techniques do you feel like do you feel any relation to to that kind of language or do you feel like you're you know it's like old master's style works yeah I'm extremely influenced by old painting techniques any specific artists I mean this is so many but I mean I'm a I'm a it's so many I like painters like Jotto very early Renaissance painting like Piero della Francesca maybe one artist that I usually or very often steal from this but is Bellini is that's also Italian Renaissance yeah but but a lot of Dutch Dutch 17th century yeah well you've scored me I actually don't know who any of the people you listed are yeah you can check them out I mean the so the so the so much in in the in the old history of painting that's I mean crazy fresh I mean you can you don't really realize that it's been like five five hundred years or something and they really looked like I mean you can of course you can tell that the I mean it's an it's an old painting it's an ancient style and and stuff but that is it's it's it speaks so in a very contemporary way from and but I mean I remember when I started out painting I went to actually two two art schools before I went to the Royal College because in Sweden at that time that this was in the 90s you couldn't apply I mean you could apply to the Royal College but almost nobody got in without quite the serious without a serious portfolio yeah and you needed you actually needed in most cases to have gone to a couple of schools before so there was like a preparatory painting schools in Stockholm like they were like six of them and they they were sorted in a strange high your article. So you started at one, one of maybe three and then you advanced to another school that was like, okay, next step. And then from there, you had a pretty good chance at getting accepted at one of the one of the art colleges in Sweden. And there was like maybe four or five. But when I went to these these preparatory art schools, they were very much influenced by modernism and the French painting style that evolved from like the late 19th century French schools and and then and then the French cubism and and all that. So it wasn't actually really that common that that students studied like the old masters because they were seen as a bit well old. So but I was really fascinated and wanted to learn the techniques. So I actually went to I realized that if I wanted to learn this, I needed to sort of teach myself by looking at older paintings. So I've spent many years at museums around Europe painting and drawing there. So master copies and the galleries and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. It would be interesting to hear. Are there contemporary artists as well? It serves as influences for you. Because I know a lot of your visuals incorporate an eight-bit digital artwork as well. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of contemporary painters that I find like interesting and that I really really like it's always harder to mention like contemporary artists because I'm always afraid of okay well why didn't I say that one or I forgot about that one and now they're going to hate me but but yeah no I got that there's a lot and there's there's always been a kind of really living painting tradition in the Nordic countries even though by you're in the 90s, painting wasn't really in. I mean I remember when I at my first year at Royal College they I remember one of the senior students asking me why are you still painting? I mean you got accepted already here so now you can do whatever you want because at the time there was an emphasis on like more like conceptual art and right and expectations and yeah exactly and I've got no beef with that but that wasn't my thing I mean I really wanted to learn to paint so I was actually a bit disappointed that that there was no real schooling at the Royal College but it was fine anyway I mean I considered it the five-year grant but like I got my studio at the school and I can do pretty much what I want and I wanted to paint so. That's interesting that's actually a sentiment we've spoken with a few artists about that in the last maybe a few decades arts education had such a slant towards contemporary that it was a little bit shocking for folks that didn't fall in that wheelhouse yeah yeah and a lot of people share a little bit of that are of exactly but but after I remember after that period at least here in Sweden there was kind of a backlash and the and painting become became like interesting again by the contemporary art scene they they considered it you know not it's fine again but I mean all the painters they I mean they had just kept going and paint so. Right they were there the whole time. That's an interesting segue I'm curious to know how would you describe the this is definitely a very broad question so feel free to answer it however you want but how would you describe the community of artists and Stockholm like is there a lot of very active galleries or a lot of like are people are there a lot of artists working in doing studio practices through public grants or is there like how would you describe the I'm sure it's very diverse but how would you describe the Stockholm or overall Sweden artist community working you know at the professional level yeah it's a it's difficult to answer briefly but I believe but since there's there's quite a few like colleges of art and in Sweden and I don't know how many get the you know they push out every year but but after a while some turn to other stuff and there's and then there's people that get accepted to galleries and in in Stockholm there's quite a rich and and lively galleries seem they've had their ups and downs and and I know the the Covid situation broke a few of them yeah so but since I mean Stockholm is a pretty I mean by by most international standards I mean it's a it's a small city I mean it's the capital of Sweden but I don't know how many it's like one and a half million or something so and the art scene is I mean it's it's it's it's alive but it isn't huge so you pretty much if you if you go regularly to the openings and and you I mean you've been perhaps and you went to the hard schools and so you know people it's it's it's kind of everybody knows everybody more or less at least among the people that that's been doing doing it for a while so but no I am trying to figure out I'm trying to think of to give an example I know something that we because it is really hard to describe the scene from right right right I know something that we notice a lot with the Boston scene here is to generalize a lot of galleries tend to be more leaning towards abstract expressionism is a bit of a corporate arts market it's kind of a more conservative place like you don't see a lot of things like performance art is less drama okay most of the pieces here are there's a lot of painting I would say more than sculpture like there's just certain trends that we've observed over time so it's interesting to compare between cities because we have New York right up the way if you hours down that it's very different yeah right this there's a there's a bit of everything here and I feel that right now at least there's no there's no really extreme trend towards one thing or another so so it's pretty pretty inclusive and there are galleries that that specialize in sort of like some one way of painting perhaps or a style you can recognize the artists from that gallery and then there's more more like internationally known Swedish galleries that are I mean this and this and hierarchy among the galleries as well but we also have the Swedish government has supports the arts pretty well so we so there's this quite a few institutions that are that are government funded that wouldn't exist if if it was purely they had to do you know manage by themselves right so one thing too that I want to get into kind of the elephant in the room is that you your imagery whether people know it or not is some of the is it is attached to literally the the highest selling video game like ever yeah you know what I mean like like children adults like every like I don't know if it's the same in Sweden but in American culture like every everybody plays Minecraft or has a child that plays Minecraft. Yeah, it's incredibly popular here as well. Right, and I'm curious to know, like you, I guess your story with Minecraft or how your images, your paintings became associated with the game. I mean, it's seen from my brief research, I learned that you got involved in 2010, I believe. Yeah, I think so. I guess I'm curious, like how did you get that call, like were you friends with or involved in the development of the game, like how did a artist, you know, a classically trained painter from the Royal Academy in Sweden end up, you know, associated with this game? Well, it was just chance, I mean, Marcus, who made the game, Marcus Pashel. Is this the one I want known as notch? Yeah, exactly. Okay, gotcha. He was together with my sister. Oh, so they lived together. And that apartment pretty close to where my family lives. Oh, in Sweden? Yeah, yeah, in the suburbs of South of Stockholm. And so, I mean, we were good friends and we had known each other for a couple of years. They had been together for a couple of years. And he, I mean, that wasn't the first game he showed me. I remember when I went to visit him sometimes, he would be programming something. I don't know how they do it, but he's a way. Usually. Very crazy, but anyway, one day he showed me this early test for the game. And then it evolved. And I would see newer stuff. And I don't remember exactly how. But I think we were talking about, he was talking about adding furniture, I think. furniture and stuff. And he said that. And then I might do like if you combine sticks and wool, it could become paintings. Maybe you should, you know, you know, shrink some of your paintings. Oh, he said, I have this idea if we take some of the sticks and wool in the game. Because that's the correct, the craft. Yes, I did. Yeah, exactly. So you could do like, you could, you could combine stuff and it would be an axe or it would be anything. Yeah. So, and he was like, well, and then we can do a share and painting and like, yeah. So I took a couple of, I think, sort of like 20 paintings and then I pixelated them. I mean, they were, I mean, I took photos of, I mean, I always document my paintings, of course. And so I had had a lot of, so I should show so few and sent them over to him and next time over there were in the game. But that, I mean, this was before it was really popular. And you choose the paintings where they just, you just said, where they just current works in your portfolio or did you do a few designs where you said, oh, I think these would look really great in this game or how did that process look? Yeah, I remember, I mean, I sorted through paintings that I was thinking about, well, what would be, what would fit in the game? I couldn't choose really two strange stuff, right? Maybe and maybe not like two violent or, you know, I remember I was just like, this is fine, this will do. And then also quite a few of them, I actually cropped out like, like details from the paintings or at least smaller portions of the painting and then pixelated them. And after, after pixelation also had to go over them with them, like, adjust the pixels because to make it look good in some cases, yeah, in some cases, I changed the stuff and I thought it would be fun to maybe add something from Minecraft into the painting. So I remember I added, I think was a pig's head into a painting and a creeper head. No, so I added pieces of Minecraft in some of the pixel paintings also and then it took off. But I think it was a year later something or maybe two when there was some kind of competition for the computer company here in Stockholm together with Mojang, the company that mixed Minecraft. They had some kind of competition and their idea was that one of the first price would be a pink one of my paintings. So they actually commissioned me to do one more painting from Minecraft. So then I made the most famous painting in Minecraft, the Skull on Fire or the Burning Skull. Oh wow. So that was created after my after the, oh, this is added late. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So that was the last one. Oh, I mean, the only one that we added here. How funny that that's like the most iconic one too. Yeah, yeah. But I think that I by then I had time to think a bit. Okay, many of the many of the paintings we added like just for fun and they were like unrecognizable from the origin of painting not only because they were so small, but there was room for some more larger paintings and larger in this case it's like 64 by 64 pixels. So not that huge. But so I'm not, I want to do something really something that would be not visually too complicated. So, and then it was a skull and then pixelated fire. And one thing, I mean, with quite a few of them paintings is that I mean, they were all oil paintings, but many of them actually depicted pixelated 2D stuff in 3D environment. So quite a few of the pixel paintings were, I mean, they were paintings of pixels and then a photograph the painting of pixels and then I turned them into pixels. So some of the so some of the pixelated objects in the paintings were kind of kind of confusing, but they got the pixels again. That's a fun process. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm curious to back up just a little bit, was the use of pixel art in your painting something you were doing before the affiliation with this project? Or was it sort of attribution to your style? No, I had done that for many years. And because I was really loved the old school pixelated images that were in the early computer games. Because I found it quite fascinating that they could, even though it was, I don't remember how large the screens were back in late 80s, but you didn't have a lot of pixels to work with and you certainly didn't have much color. I mean, we had EGA, I think there was 16 colors. And then it was like 32, super EGA and stuff. And DJ was like 200, I don't remember. Anyway, the one thing that I found so fascinating with the early computer games was how much ingenuity and creativity they had to bring to the table to be able to make interesting games with that kind of limitations. And I think that often, when you have limitations, that's when you really can be creative. So. So I wanted to see if my really old-fashioned, in a sense, painting style, how it would look a very classical oil on canvas technique, but implementing something that is restricted in color and ultimately extremely flat. One of the central ideas in modernism, at least, as implemented by the French in the 1920s, 1940s, was that the paintings should not try to hide their flatness. So painters would exaggerate or at least not try to hide the flatness of the painting. And if you look at paintings from, say, the middle 19th century and the old tradition is that you actually, when you paint, you actually try to mimic a 3D world, say you paint a still life or a portrait. The old school, of course, wanted to make it real. They wanted to make a 3D space. But I wanted to see what would happen if I continued in the old style of painting a 3D world. But if I contrasted that with really flat objects, what would happen, and what I found was that the flatness of the painting, in these pictures, pixels, or I used other stuff as well, like clip art and drawings. But I placed them in the 3D world and their flatness exaggerated the 3D space. So actually, the paintings became more filled with volume and an illusory sense of space in the paintings. I found that quite fascinating. I had a very interesting contrast between the flatness and the three-dimensional qualities of the paint. Yeah, it emphasized each other. Exactly. And by then, I also started to make my motifs in 3D programs. So I would construct virtual still lives. I used like 3D software called Maya and various other. Before we get into that part, so our only problem here, we actually only have Zoom basic. So it ends our meetings after like 30 minutes or something. Is it okay with you if we pause for like two minutes and I start a new meeting and send you the link to that? Okay, awesome. I just want to say to you, this has been absolutely amazing so far. So we'll pick up where we left off in a second. Okay, absolutely. Awesome. I'll see you in the link right now. Yep. Okay. Oh, there we go. I had to press, I had to press got it. Gotcha. Classic. Okay. I'm back with a cup of coffee. So perfect. Oh, excellent. We got our coffee as well. We got our cup of beer and hit us on that. Yeah. The limitations. So you were just talking about I'm not I'm not I'm not in a hurry anywhere. So wonderful. Yeah, we're curious too about your schedule. So you are you working like five days a week in the studio? Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. And they're what kind of like I'm actually really curious about this because I really love people's like, uh, stock work styles and stuff. Like what is your studio? Like are you in a warehouse or something like that? No, it's like, uh, it's not it's not exactly a basement because I do have windows, but it's like half a floor down and it's kind of it's not big. I actually, I have three rooms, but I rent rent out two of them. So, um, so, but I have a have a decent size room and, um, and it's sort of divided into two parts. One is where I'm sitting now in front of the computer and this is where I, I do my sketching on in 3D. Because that's how I make my motifs for painting. So often I'll be sitting here for by the computer for a couple of weeks making, um, making scenes. I mean, it's like, um, I think of them a bit like if the virtual stages like, uh, uh, scenery is like on a, in a theater or something. And then I, and my, uh, different image parts are like, uh, the, the set design and the, and the actors and then I move them about and rearrange the lighting and I do, you know, and in the end, it's, um, I have something that I find interesting to paint and then I move over to my, the other part of my studio where I'm, where it's more like a classic painting, painting studio with brushes and paint and, and then e-cell and stuff. And so you had said it's a 3D, it's a digital program, right? For the 3D mapping. Yeah. Yeah. Could you tell us about that process a little bit? Are you, so are you making digital renderings of these specific, also, don't mind. It seems that there's a dog barking directly outside my window. Sorry, because you can hear that. I don't hear it. No, God. So I'm, I'm curious. So are you making digital renderings of your subject matter and your ideas and your concepts? Yeah. And then you're using these to create your, your, your oil paintings. Yeah. That's such a, that's a really cool process. Could you tell us about how, how this like, maybe like from beginning to sure, to, to easel? Yeah. Uh, usually it's, it starts with, uh, sometimes I have a basic idea of some kind of scene that I want to build. Uh, but, uh, quite, most of the time, I actually don't know what I'm, what I'm going to do. I, I sit down and I start building something in the 3D program. Right now, I'm using, uh, blender, which is a free 3D, uh, program, uh, which is really good. And, um, and, uh, many, many times I actually start by recreating, uh, a painting by someone else, like a billionaire or Piero della Francesca or, uh, quite often it's, um, it's a renaissance or a painting because they, they, they, they, they invented the central perspective, which, you know, the idea that you can drag, you can draw lines towards the horizon and it will aid you in, uh, in, in the, the painting buildings and you can, you can place, uh, people in perspective and such. And, uh, that's, I mean, that is a construction that they came up with in, uh, like, uh, uh, 15th century. And, uh, but we actually used to it now that we don't, uh, we don't think about it. I mean, or, um, I mean, our, our modern life is so filled with images that are, uh, we, we take it for granted. And also the 3D software is, uh, it's based on that idea. Um, so, yeah. Could you rotate it and see it from another perspective? Yeah. When I'm, when I'm, when I'm done with the reconstruction. That's so interesting. That must be. Yeah. So, so I, so I, uh, I, I tried to recreate the, uh, the architecture. Sometimes I mean, it's really basic. It may be a wall or two and the, and the archway and the, like, uh, recently I've been doing a lot of, uh, I started with the paintings from, uh, the Dutch, like 17th century. Like, um, that paint is called Peter de Hour. Uh, really, really nice. Uh, uh, you may know Fermé. He's more, more well known, but it's similar. Anyway, they're quite easy to, to, uh, to recreate and then, uh, and then I just continue. Uh, I remove stuff that, uh, I mean, I don't want to do a exact copy of someone old, some old painting, but I, I want something to start with. And I, so I, I sometimes do a perfect recreation. It looks exactly like like the. original painting and then I start removing stuff and sometimes it's only a few pieces of the original left but now it's a 3d scene that I can rotate and I can add you know lighting I can I can I can make a landscape in the background I can adjust the weather I can know put put the sunset in the in the distance and watch how shadows fall if I mean on on a painting 500 years old if the sun would have been another place you know it's really interesting so that that that that that stirs up my imagination and then I start you know just keep keep building and see if I get any you know if it turns out well then I and I find it interesting and I'm like oh I want a painter's and then I'm and then I know I'm finished with the motif but then that's this is only like it's like it's like if you're say you're still a painter and you you have a table and then you think what what I'm gonna paint today I'll add a like a say a brown picture I'll add a wine glass and then a couple of apples and oh this looks interesting I'll paint that I do the same but in 3d that that's that's a basic explanation but then after that the fun part for me at least or the most fun part is translating this image to paint to to make it a painting because even though it's a kind of I mean it's an interesting image but it's totally flat and it looks like a computer I mean since it was made in the computer it looks like computer made it and it's and I don't like that kind of I mean I'm not that interested in that kind of imagery so I need to make a physical painting because that's that's where I come from I need to I need to paint so then I have to translate all the forms and the colors and the and I can exaggerate and improvise on this motif so so then I then I paint and then it becomes a painting in the end and yeah that's how it works that sounds like such an interesting challenge converting it from this digital image to something like tangible on canvas like that and it must be a wonderful reference to if you can control your light source and the perspective and everything like that it sounds like having a model in the studio. Exactly and I mean I and and this this sort of virtual worlds or virtual still lives they I can revisit them so so like I can I can I can browse my folder for like 20 2008 and go back and open up old scenes and like oh I made the painting this out and then and then I maybe turn off a light and rotate the scene a bit and like oh I should have painted this and so this looks much cooler whatever and and so I have hundreds of small worlds in the in my computer that that was the birthplace of the paintings it kind of fun yeah it's really cool because that's such an innovative way out of a very familiar problem with that a lot of people run into when they're painting from photographs I've heard a lot of people kind of lament almost when they're painting from photographs they say like oh like it's frustrating because I can only see one perspective one lighting it's the camera has flattened all everything and you have to kind of invent a perspective but yeah but with this it's like and something else that's so interesting about that too is that you know you look at like you know these these old and beautiful paintings and like you might wish that you could just go there and paint these buildings as they were and these people as they were but yeah you you're innovating this this way of of literally doing that obviously with limitations but I'm sure but but but yeah it's like you say it's uh it starts with a feeling of like appreciation of or almost love of the old painting and you and you said like you said you want to go there you want to be there and if you if you create it you recreate it you can step inside it in a way and of course it's not like but in your in your imagination you can play with the idea that you're you're sort of inside the painting and and the process of recreating a painting in 3D also the man's of you that you get to know the the original artwork quite well and that's also really I mean it's nice it's interesting because you really get to look at at the at the painting and if you take a look at the paintings like the paintings that I've made and the you you won't really see like oh there's a that's that that's a recation of an old painting some are quite like uh yeah you can you can tell maybe or if you well burst in art history you might recognize a few things but like I said it's just it's often it's a starting point and not uh not uh it's not my intention to to to like make a painting uh look like an old painting even though I use the same technique when it comes to the physical aspect have you ever run into something where like if you're using this program it must sort of be a test sometimes of the perspective and composition as well have you ever run into a situation where you're doing a master copy like that to build that framework to paint from and realize that something was not compositionally accurate or um perspective I perspective wise I guess yeah yeah yeah that that's why it's uh uh it's uh that's why I often use paintings from a certain from certain periods where they actually constructed their paintings methodically according to the uh the idea of the central perspective because that's much easier easier and they feel and um but but many artists didn't I mean they they might have started out in the part of the painting with the central perspective and then they just you know improvised and you know made something else yeah so in quite a few uh quite a few times I've I've tried to fit all this uh architecture into a mimic the painting and just realizing it's totally impossible the scene could never have looked like this and uh uh it's just absurd and when I rotate it uh it looks really really weird but interesting interesting uh like uh I remember trying to do a scene I started out with an Albrecht Dürer uh German uh 15th century uh the 16th century and it was totally messed up but it got really interesting and uh um yeah yeah I'm thinking that must be it sounds like it's probably frustrating once you're halfway through and realize that but it must be really educational. No no not really because my intention isn't really to make something perfect I I welcome the errors I welcome the the chaos that is inherently uh you know bound up with the process and also by sort of limiting myself to these to the rules that you you need to adhere to to be able to use the program or the or this method uh I find that it like as like I mentioned with the early computer games and pixels and the limited palette it actually frees me up uh and uh and and and make me look at stuff in a for me at least a creative way. Yeah to meet that challenge of the format. Yeah so it's um yeah. Do you teach it all? No not now. I was a teacher for a couple of years at uh at uh at at our school in Stockholm and that was fun uh but uh I don't teach it right now no and your main work as an artist or you like like mainly operating like, like, are you, I'm curious like, I don't know, like, are you mostly focused on like selling your paintings or something like that? Or, yeah, I mean, most of my time is, is me in the studio making paintings. And, and, and now and then I have an exhibition and, and, and then I sell paintings, but I also, I also do some public commissions, like for buildings and schools and so I made like, maybe a 10, 10, 13, quite large mosaics. I was, yeah, to tile mosaics, where I, in most cases, I, I use the tiles as pixels. So they're, they're very large pixel paintings, you could say. I have one that's, at the big, that was a call, I said, it's a part outside of a parking house at the, at the new hospital here in Stockholm. Oh, yeah. And it's, it's 80 meters or 100 meters or so. So it's huge. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's incredible. What a feat. Yeah. I asked that question because like, we interview a lot of, as a lot of people say, I guess here, maybe they use a similar expression, you know, a lot of people call themselves working artists where, you know, they're either, maybe they're teaching kids how to make art or maybe they're professors or they operate specifically, you know, you know, applying for grants and this and that or, yeah, or they're just, or they're doing it in an entrepreneurial way where they're mostly focused on sales and marketing themselves. So we're always curious to see here, people's like experience with, you know, they're, I don't know, like, I don't know how to put it, like, you know, their experience, which is trying to survive, you know, and hack it, you know, and make it, you know, through their day to day as an artist and stuff. So it's really, it's really interesting. I guess it's hard to kind of frame up the right question though because we technically are into literal, literally two different economies. Yeah. So I don't fully understand like how to ask some questions because maybe it is different or maybe it isn't, maybe it doesn't all that different. I don't know exactly what the difference is. But I think it's, it must be quite similar. I mean, I mean, I need to sell, I need to sell paintings. And sometimes a long, a long time passes between sales. And then, oh yeah. Yeah. So, but these public commissions are a helpful addition to the, to the economy here. And so I mean, I mean, I do my paintings and I'm quite poor actually at the sales part of it. And I'm actually, I should be more, I mean, if I was really good at this profession, I would be, I would be more more social and go to more openings and the shake a few more hands. And like, so I'm actually quite poor at the, at the sales part of it. I don't know. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, different personalities have, have different like facilities when it comes to that, that sort of stuff. And I'm more of a recluse here sitting in my studio there. Gotcha. And I mean, that's, that's the way, that's the best way for it to be when you're an artist to just be able to be in your studio and to make, make your work, you know, something I'm curious about, too, that's, might be kind of an, I don't know, this is an odd question. But like in terms of like intellectual property or like copyright and stuff, like, you know, and talking about marketing yourself or something like that, like, you know, do you, like, are you, would you be able to like sell prints like, are posters of like, like the Minecraft stuff, like, if you ever try, like, did you ever like try to kind of, I don't know, like ride that wave or was that kind of a weird situation with like, Minecrafts or mojang owning the paintings or something? No, I mean, did they, they didn't own the paintings and I mean, even I didn't own the paintings because they were sold long time ago, all of them, or at least most of them. So, like, just a private collector or painter. I mean, I mean, I, I, I chose paintings, gotcha, from my painting history, like the last couple of years mostly, at that time. And, and then I made the Minecraft pixelated versions of them. And, but I didn't still have the paintings. I mean, I think one or two, maybe I still had, but, I see them were like, you know, sold a long time ago. And the only one that, that was made for Minecraft was the Skull on fire. And that was the first price in a competition. So that won that with the winner of the, of the, of the competition. But, so, I mean, I do sell prints of my paintings. And that includes, of course, the, the paintings that was the, that was the foundation for the painting, pixel paintings in Minecraft. Right. But, but I, I can't sell the pixel, a pixelated versions because that's mojang on that. But I can, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but I can, but I can, I can sell a sort of the originals, of course. I still have copyright for all my paintings. Wow. That must have been such an exciting surprise for the collectors of those pieces when they showed up in Minecraft years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, most of it must have happened that, you know, a kid somewhere in Sweden or Denmark or Germany looks up from their computer and was like, mom, isn't that, isn't that, isn't that that painting that's on the wall there? Oh, that's funny. Well, that's funny. Also, do you, do you have children yourself? Yep. Yeah. Do they play Minecraft? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no, the getting a bit, a bit older and gotcha. My, my, my son is 10 years old. So he's still playing. But my, my daughter is grown up now. So right. He's passed the Minecraft stage. Gotcha. Did they already know when they were playing it, that your paintings were in it or was there a moment of realization for them to know? No, they, they, they knew, I mean, they at least my, my, my daughter, she grew up, I mean, while with the game being made, I mean, oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, so, so she would look at like, oh, when it's going to be released, like, so she would, she would play Minecraft before Minecraft was released. Oh, wow. That's unreal. What a, what a cool like now, like, yeah, that would be such a cool thing to share as like an icebreaker or something like I played Minecraft beta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, I, I was the first, when, when Marcus tried to implement like, the feature of like, that you could join someone else's server and you could be more than one player. I remember that moment because I tried to connect from my, from like, I was on vacation somewhere and I connected through a laptop and I was like, oh, it worked. And then we would walk around in the same, in the same world. And that was the like, one of the first times we tried that. Wow. It was like the beginning. That's like, it's so crazy because because in the, in the, in the beginning, it was, it was like a one player. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's a life-changing moment. Yeah. What did you have like any like, like, I mean, because you probably, you know, you're, you're in like this very active full-time artist and your friend, or you know, is, is probably this very creative and prolific, you know, computer guy making games and stuff. But yeah. So you guys probably had a creative relationship to begin with. But did you feel like, like, was there any reason to believe that you guys were doing some like, messing around with a project that would become like legendary? Did you? No, I mean, I remember the first time he, uh, he showed me, like the pixelated hand coming up in front of the screen and banging on like a rock or something and when he had knocked like 10 times the rock broke and he said, "Well, this is trying to figure out if I could do some kind of mining game and I was like, this is really interesting, I mean I felt that he really had something there and after a while when he when he continued to improve it, it was like, yeah, this is really good but of course there was no way of knowing, like this absurd level of popularity. Oh, that's so fun. That must have been a really exciting project to be a part of and to be you. Yeah, I mean I must I mean I was I had very little I mean I I did the paintings, nothing else and I wasn't involved in decision making or anything. This was a solo project that's not Marcus did and and I was I was just in the periphery. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's like the you know that's the way it is for so many artists communities. It's just like you know you're just part of these these groups and friend groups and your friends are just like making these like amazing things. So yeah. It's fun to be a part of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then to tie it into because what kind of work are you doing right now? Do you have a series that you're working on that's something that you're passionate about at the moment? Yeah, I have I've just had like a couple of months of sketching in the computer. I try to do you know a group of motifs at the same like in in succession so that when I start painting I can do that for quite a while without having to return to the computer and make a new idea. So right now I have like maybe nine nine paintings that are in only still only in 3D but I'm sort of finished with them conceptually and so so now I've started to to to paint them and is that a difficult transition going from such a long time doing the digital to the painting to it's a it's a it's a relief because because I I can finally like I can I can I can start building on on the idea like it was meant to like sometimes I do stuff in 3D knowing that it looks awful in 3D but I know that when I paint it I can I can I can make it work so so so right now it's the most fun time when I when I actually have a long period of of concentrated painting I had to me and I have I have an exhibition at at a at a in a con comstal in February so I have to paint quite quite a lot now because I only have three paintings finished and I need a couple more. Yeah You know it's funny it's just reminded me of I had a professor years ago who his husband would he was a wood carver as his primary artistic training and but he was also an oil painter and I he would make wood small wood sculptures like dioramas and stuff and he was actually using doing a similar thing where yeah he was he was much older than than all of us he's passed away now but he would make wood sculptures for as as his references for his still life paintings yeah and and there were like painters back in like the 18th century that the for example Nikola Poussin the French painter who who would make these small clay figures and stuff and make a sort of a diorama small scene that that who who would use so the idea isn't new and and I see I see a few contemporary painters that also build their own like scenes methodically and like miniatures and stuff but I haven't seen anybody else yet doing it in 3d I'm sure there are certainly people out there doing it but I haven't encountered them yet Wow yeah I mean and who could say I mean actually actually has another interesting thing I'm curious about is do you publish or show these these renderings these digital renderings ever like as any kind of behind the scenes the publications or things with your work like you know I'm obviously display your paintings and those were the main point but you ever give people like a kind of look behind the curtain a little bit with some of these yeah in the digital sketches in a limited way yeah yeah sometimes when I get like a like a maybe a journalist come to the studio and do an interview or something I you know I'll show them a sneak peek of my my sketching process and show a bit of how it how it looks behind the scenes and yeah there have been also moment I mean times where I've shown maybe a little bit of the background paintings and actually for my new show now in February I'm going to do a video showing the parts of the of the creation process because I I've actually have that question asked a lot like we want to and could you please like show us because it looks so cool and why don't you show this and yeah but the point for me has been like I mean this isn't this isn't what I do this I mean this is my product this is just my work process and sure I can I can I can show it and I and I realize for some people it is fascinating because it is fascinating to me so I'm going to open up a bit and be more generous and and show a little bit more and actually I think yeah I have a I have a very small and not not often updated youtube channel where I actually show a little bit yeah I do I have a small some unfinished work process video there and also one thing one one video where I'm exploring the const the like composition ideas with the like the golden ratio and stuff by by showing how I work in in the 3d program yeah that's so interesting hey we're coming up on our yeah five minutes at the end of this but I think I'm not sure how long we've gone but this has been like an incredible interview I just want to thank you so much for for coming on here and sharing this stuff you know especially since we've just sent you a cold message you know so appreciate you yeah no I appreciate it and it was my pleasure yeah thank you so much I was thinking about to say I hate that we have a time limit yeah we're not from we're we do a lot of this stuff is like field recordings or like on the phone or something so we're unfamiliar with our technology right now but yeah but regardless like this has been like at like it's just like I I because like I'm probably too old to do it but I do play minecrafts yeah so I'm gonna think of you in this conversation yeah yeah when I'm when I'm building a little village and I hang up the paintings in their houses yeah yeah yeah I'll think of of your work and your experience so I hope we can we can stay in touch and keep up with all of your your accomplishments and the shows you got coming up so but thank you so much for for for blessing our show yeah thanks your audience and your story nice talking to you yeah you too man well we'll we'll keep you updated on when this is gonna come out in the meantime I hope you have a good rest of your night and good rest of your week you too you too wonderful we'll talk soon yeah thank you bye bye bye Boston Art Podcast is an independent DIY production by Brian Huntress and Theodore Earthworms the information contained in this episode represents the views and opinions of the original creators or our guests and does not represent any institution organization or business find us on instagram at Boston Art Podcast and tune in for a new episode every Friday thank you for listening [MUSIC]