Krishnamurti on Art

We have a crisis in the world, tremendous crisis, and also crisis in our consciousness, in us. I see the urgency of change, radical revolution, nutrition in the mind. I see it. It is necessary. There is complete quietness of the mind, and that which is silent has vast space. And then that which is nameless comes into being. This is urgency of change, the Krishna-Merty-Bodcast. The greatest art is the art of living. Not the paintings, the sculptures, the poems, the marvelous literature. That all has its place, but to find out the art of living is the greatest art. Hello and welcome to episode 292 of urgency of change. The Krishna-Merty-Bodcast features carefully selected extracts from Krishna-Merty's recorded talks. Each episode highlights his different approaches to universal and timeless themes that affect our everyday lives, the state of the world, and the future of humanity. This episode theme is art. Upcoming themes are competition, the past, and challenge. This is a podcast from Krishna-Merty Foundation Trust based at Brockwood Park in Hampshire, UK. Brockwood is also owned at Brockwood Park School, a unique international boarding school, offering a personalized holistic education inspired by Krishna-Merty's teachings. Please visit Brockwood.org.uk for more information. You can also find our regular Krishna-Merty quotes and videos on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook at Krishna-Merty Foundation Trust. If you enjoy the podcast, please leave a review or rating on your podcast app. This episode on art has four sections. This first extract is from the second question and answer meeting in Sarnan 1984, and is titled Is Art the Product of Thought. Your statement that art is merely the product of thought and therefore not creation has troubled many artists, poets, musicians, including us who are here. And who think that they are, creators, cannot creation include the activity of thought. Right? Question clear. The speaker has said that thought, with all the nature of thought, can never be creative. So thought, which is the expression also of an artist, poet, musicians and all of us included, thought is always limited. Right? So first we must enquire into what is thought, why it is limited, whether it is expressed by the greatest poet in the world or the greatest artist or the artist we just beginning. I hope the artist is always beginning, not achieving. I think it was Goya, or Velasquhs of 'I'm Got Who', one of those, said, 'I'm always learning'. Goya, there he is. He was 92 when he said that. I'm still learning. So we have to enquire into several things. First of all, what is creation? Creation? How the world has come into being? That part of creation. And we ought also enquire into thought. And the art of living, which is the far, the greatest art, the supreme art, and the art of painting, the art of music, the art of speech. And why do we give such extraordinary importance to artists? The other day a picture was sold for ten million dollars. It is probably a very good investment. So we have to enquire into all this, not just condemn or say, 'Why do you say that?' The first lesson, 'Quar', what is the art of living? Why do you say that is the greatest art, greater than any other art in the world, from the marvellous carpenter who puts a cabinet together, and the great artist, the another ancient sort, great classical artist, and the great poets. And those of us who are not so-called artists, but we may have the sensitivity to look at the mountains, sensitivity to some one's suffering, sensitivity to nature, to look at a tree. There is a marvellous tree on the road, single, whole, one great trunk with many, many branches full of foliage, fluttering in the wind. When you look at that beauty, or the beauty of a cloud with sunlight on it, so we have to also enquire then what is beauty. So this question implies great many things, not just one thing. What is beauty, apart from the physical form, clean cut face, healthy, full of sparkling eyes and smile and sense of dignity? Is the beauty of a mountain of a tree or the running waters? When does one see such great beauty? You may go all the museums of the world, and the speaker has visited many, many, many museums. And everybody says, 'What a marvellous picture that is, how beautifully proportionate the colours, the shape, the grouping and all the rest of it.' So, we use the word beauty in so many ways – beauty, salon, and so on. What is, if you really enquire into it, what is beauty? Does beauty lie in the eye, in the heart or in the mind, or there is beauty when the self, the ego is not. The ego with all its problems, with all its travelling, with all its confusion, uncertainty, misery, happiness – that is the self. And when that self says how beautiful it is, it has very little meaning. There was a, perhaps you have heard of the grand canyon in Arizona, the most extraordinary canyon it is, miles of it, a river cutting through it, which is the most extraordinary side. And somebody has said in the hotel book, I have seen this glorious sight and I am glad I am going to have tea. So, is it possible to look at something that real mountain, the valley, your wife, your husband or something without the self, without you coming between that and your perception? You understand? Is it possible to appreciate that sense of great beauty? And that beauty cannot possibly exist when the self is there. You may be a great artist, the modern sense of that word too, and be tremendously egocentric, tremendously ambitious, grabbing money and paying the extraordinary picture. And we call that a great artist. So, we have to ask, what is the art of living? Which is the greatest art of earth, because we are never the great poets, the great sculptors, the Kalangel, all the rest of them, have they understood I am not belittling them or being disrespectful to them, or to you who are here as artists, poets and musicians. Then one discovers the art of living and then everything you do is art. And what is the art of living? I believe the word art means giving the right proportions to life, giving, placing all the things in life, in their order, not exaggerating any one thing, and to find out the art of living has tremendous, not only intellectual capacity, but also great sensitivity. The art of living can only come when there is total freedom. Even from all our petty little worries, all our intentions, all our problems, fears and when there is this extraordinary sense of wholeness. That is, when there is, when you are nothing, nothing in this is wholeness. I wonder if you understand all this, because we always want you to be something. For a clerk we want to become the manager. I hope you are a scientist, you want to explore more and more and more and fame, publisher, you are all the rest of it. Research into biology, not research into your own mind, your own being. That doesn't count in the world. That is no importance, but we are scientists exploring into the atom. It is given tremendous importance. So can we find out for ourselves the art of living? You go into that, we must find out the nature of thought. Thought is born of knowledge, as memory. Thought is memory, knowledge, experience. If there is no experience, no knowledge, no memory, there is no thinking. You may have no feeling, but there is no active thinking. And are thinking in any direction, horizontal or vertical, linear or whole, is still limited, because knowledge is always limited, whether now or in the future. Is that clear? That is so. It is not what the speaker is saying, asserting it is a fact, because all our experience are limited. You want me to say? When it is limited there is a demand for the more, more knowledge. When we see that knowledge, though some of the biologists and scientists say through knowledge, man ascends, must have heard it. Man ascends through knowledge, probably physically. You understand? You are building greater houses, better houses, better heating, better roads, better communication, better ways of killing man and so on, so on, so on. So thought, being limited, has created this world, this society in which we live. Obviously. Thought has created all the rituals in all the religious organisations. Thought has created the gods out of fear, out of the desire for comfort, security. Thought is a material process because you understand? It is contained in the brain. The brain, the speaker is not an expert on brain, but he is watched. I want so in brain works, its reactions, its rhythm and so on. I won't go into that, all that. So thought, whatever it does is limited. And being limited, it can invent, invent new ways of building a cycle. Better ways, invent new combustion, internal combustion machinery and so on, the jet and so on. It can invent everything. But invention is not creation. And we write a beautiful poem and feel that it is my creation. But it is still within the area of thought. Right? Bound to me. If one writes a poem, however magnificent, however beautiful, however depth and rhythm of the words and all that, it is still, the feeling may be different but the expression of it is still within the field of thought. And so whatever thought does is limited and inventions are limited. One invent something and somebody comes along and invent the same thing, but better and so on, so on, so on. So what is creation? This has been a question that has been asked by the ancient Hindus, the later Greeks, and we say, 'God has created all this'. It is a very convenient way out of things. But with one's self putting all this assertions aside, what is creation? And it be born out of knowledge and therefore creation is limited or creation is something beyond all knowledge, which is nothing whatsoever to do with knowledge. You understand? So if we go into this very seriously to find out, not I find out you tell you, but to find out for oneself, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with thought, with memory, with knowledge, with experience, so we'll put all that, use one word to convey all that knowledge. As we said, knowledge is always limited, now or in the future. And creation must be something limitless. But I create a point, that's a very misuse of that word, one may point out. We are not belittling the artist or the painter or the etcetera. But when we are inquiring very, very deeply into this question, to find out, that which is not created by thought, the immensity of the universe, one can look at the universe through a telescope, see various gases and so on. But the enormity of creation, the thing that is not measurable by words, we measure everything by words, to the free of knowledge. You understand? And yet have knowledge in its place to find that out, whether the brain can ever be free from knowledge and the word, but yet keep knowledge in its place, you understand? Driving, talking, writing a letter, areas, forms of skills and discipline. And knowledge is absolutely necessary, otherwise you and I speak, I wouldn't be sitting here. But the sense of immensity, the sense of that creation which is not measurable by thought. And therefore creation is something that has no relationship with knowledge. The second extract is from Krishnamurti's eighth talk in Ohio 1949 and is titled Art and Sensitivity. Is the artist, the musician engaged in a few ties things, I'm not speaking of one who takes up art or music, but of the ball, artist, whose injuring nature is that, as is the true scientist or the man of religion, sometimes he speaks slightly in the eye of the art. As others speak of music or painting, feel as straight as your thing. Would you go into this? It's a very complicated problem, so let's go into it slowly, like all other problems. As a questioner says, there are two types of people, those who are inherently artist and those who take up art or music. Those who take up obviously, either do it for sensations, for upliftment, for various forms of escapes, merely take it up as an amusement, as an addiction. But take that up as you are to take up drink or any other is more religious dogmas and so on. Perhaps let's harm them because you are by yourself. When there is the other type, which is the other, if there is such a person, inherently for itself, keeping, using another person, as the sun. So what happens to that person? You must know such people. What is happening to him as an individual, as a social entity also, because no, there is no such thing as isolation, he is a social entity. What is happening to the person? The danger is there not, for all those people who have capacity, gift, is that they think they are superior, first of all. They are thinking they are the hope of the earth, that people specially chose a path. And with that feeling of a path, of special chosen, all the evils come. They aren't especially individualistic, aggressive, strongly self-centred, like all gifted people. So gift and capacity is a danger, is it not? Not that one can avoid the gift or the capacity, but one must be aware of the implications, the dangers that are there. And besides, they may come together in the laboratory or gather up musician, artist, but they have always this barrier between others, have they not? You are the layman and I am the special. The man who knows more, the man who knows less, and all the identification that goes with it. I am not speaking slightly of anybody, because I have to be too stupid. But one must be aware of all these things. To point them out is not to abuse somebody or deride somebody. Few of us are inherently after this. Therefore we like to play with it, because it is profitable or gives us a certain like law, a certain show, a certain verbal expression which we have learned. It gives us a place, a position. And if we are artist, really genuinely, is that surely the quality of sensitivity, not of isolation, or doesn't belong to any particular country, or to any particular person, but the artist soon makes his gift into the person. He painted it. And he's worked, he's poem. It talks him up like Durakhta. Therefore he becomes anti-social. He is more important. And most of us are not in that position, fortunately or unfortunately. Most of us use music or art as merely sensation. We may have a quick experience when we hear something lovely, but the repetition of that thing is not so long, but and over and over again, soon down, sir, it's merely sensationally indulging. And if we do not indulge in that, then beauty has quite a different significance. Then we approach it on new every time. And it is this approach, a new every time to something, whether ugly or beautiful, that is important, which is being sensitive. And you cannot be sensitive if you are captured by your own addiction or capacity, by your own delights, by your own sensationally. Surely that is the really creative person that comes to things and move, not merely repeats what the radio announcer has told you or critic. So the difficulty in this is to keep that sensitivity all the time alert, whether you are an artist or merely playing with art. And that sensitivity is doubt when you give importance to yourself as the artist. You may have vision and you may have capacity to put that vision into paint, into the marble and to words, but the moment you identify yourself within your law, it is finished. You lose that sensitivity and the world loves to trace you or a marvellous artist you are. And you like that. And then you are lost. And for most of us who are not great artists in here and there, our difficulty is not to get lost in sensation. Because sensations, doubt, through sensations you cannot experience. Experience in comes only when there is direct relationship. And there is no direct relationship when there is the screen of sensation, of desire to be or to all change, or to want it to continue. So our problem is to keep alert and sensitive. And that is divine when you are merely seeking sensation and the repetition of sensation. The third extract is from the first question and answer meeting in Ohio, 1983, and is titled What is the role of the artist? What is the role of the artist in life and what is the significance of music, for a track or art in our relationship to each other and the world? First of all, we must be clear what we mean by art. The word 'art' from Greek and so on, Latin, is to join, to adjust, to put things together. That is the root meaning of that word. It's also insane. Sanskrit, it means measure, manner, use. The root meaning, we are talking about the itch-mological meaning. And the question asks, what is the role of art in our lives? Having seen what the root meaning of that word is, the root meaning, what is beauty? Beauty is not something put together. So we are going to enquire together into the meaning of that word, the significance of that word, the content of that word. I am not a professor. I am sorry to sit on a platform which I don't like, but one has to do it for the convenience of others. Otherwise you won't see me by sat on the ground. I would like to sit on the ground but I have to sit here. It is a very complex question this. If you can go very deeply into it, it has great significance. Art implies, doesn't it, a flowing, melodious manner of space, weight, space, grouping together and death. Are there some artists here? I said, the speaker said, a flowing, melodious manner of space, depth and grouping together of words, sentences or a painting on a canvas or a sculpture or a poem or literature. Is that right? A flowing, melodious manner of space of depth, of grouping certain things together, trees, or words, all that is a form of beauty, a form of art. Do you agree to this at all? That is, if there is no space, if you see something, say painting, I hope somebody will correct me if I am wrong. If you see a picture, the painting by the masters, classical masters, or recent ones, really great painters, there is a space, a sense of space. The figures, our group together in a certain way, there is a certain depth to it in colour, in sense of movement, and it must be melodious. And that gives, when you see some of these paintings of landscape, this was, they may paint a little cottage in a field with few trees at this space, and there is depth of colour, proportion, a sense of harmony. And that would be great painting. And one has visited, perhaps as you, who has a tourist, all most of the major museums of the world, and one sees all this, great masters, and all of them, in the Netherlands, in the Americas, so on. So we are asking, what is beauty? Is beauty according to a principle, according to certain rules? Or beauty is something entirely different, though there must be proportion and all the rest of it. When we look at a mountain there, we see those mountains, those hills, range after range, the blue in the evening, and early morning when the sun touches it, before everything else. When you see that, the reaction is either great silence, you keep quiet. The space, enormous space between you and that and beyond. And when you see such a marvellous, beautiful mountain, a snow cloud against this blue sky, for an instant you become silent. The very beauty, the very grandeur, the majesty of a mountain keeps you, makes you absolutely quiet. You can say the shock of a beauty. I hope you are looking with those mountains, not me. The speaker is not important, at all. But what he says may be important and may not be important, but you have to discover for yourself. So when you see something extraordinarily grand, of great height and depth, then the shock of that beauty drives away for the moment all your problems. There is no self wandering, worrying, talking to itself, there is no entity, the self, the me looking. At that moment when the self is not, there is great beauty. Right? You want to follow this? And the questioner asks, what is the role of art in our lives? I don't know. But we are going to find out together. Why should anything play a role? Please, this is an important question. Why should anything play a role in our lives? The greatest art is the art of living, the greatest, not the paintings, the sculpture, the poems, and the marvellous literature that has its certain place, but to find out for oneself the art of living. That is the greatest art, surpasses any role in life. So some of the great painters in their lives are neurotic, very, very disturbed, and disturbed lives, like Beethoven and others, very disturbed, and that disturbance perhaps may help them to write great music. Or if only a aesthetic life, am I going over the following each other, a aesthetic life, and that life is based on relationship, there is no life without relationship. And a aesthetic is the capacity of perception. Right? Are we meeting each other or am I just talking to myself, capacity to perceive, which means one must be extraordinarily sensitive. And sensitivity is not shouting, yelling, but sensitivity comes from depth of silence. Am I going to go on? It is no good going to college, and university to learn how to be sensitive. Or go to somebody to teach you how to be sensitive. As we said, a aestheticism is the capacity to perceive. And you cannot perceive if there is not a certain depth of silence. If you look at these trees in silence, there is a communication which is not merely verbal, but a communication, a communion with nature. And most of us have lost our relationship with nature, with the trees, with the mountains, with all the living things of the earth. And sensitivity in our relationship to be aware of each other, that at all possible. That is the art of living to find out. A relationship that is not conflict. That is it. I have a flow of melodious manner of living together. You understand? Without all the rouse, quarrels, possessiveness and being possessed, fear of loneliness, you follow the whole cycle of human struggle. The art of living is far more important than the art of great painters. It may be that we are escaping through music, from ourselves, through going to all the museums of the world, and talking about them endlessly, reading about books or art. All that may be an escape from our own troubles, anxieties, depressions. So can we live in a static life of deep perception? Be aware of our words, be aware of the noise of this country, the vulgarity of human beings, because one learns far more in silence than in noise. This all may be sound platitudes, but they are not. It requires a great deal of observation of oneself. That observation is prevented by any form of authority, looking to another, to teach us how to observe. Just to observe what, the way you talk, the noise, all that goes on. Then out of that comes the art of living. What as we said is putting things together harmoniously, to observe the contradictions in oneself, once desires that are always so strong, to observe all that, not create an opposite of it, just to observe the fact and limit the fact. That seems the way to bring about a life of melodious harmony. The final extract in this episode is from the first question and answer meeting at Brockwood Park in 1984 and is titled The Art of Living. We have the art of poetry, painting, the art of so many art of cooking, especially now, and so on. But we never asked ourselves, perhaps which is the greatest art, what is the art of living? Is there art? What is it all? It is a chance. That is all some genes, a biological, chances and so on. What is the true art of living? Are you waiting for me to answer it? If one answers it, don't make a problem of it. Then the art is thrown out of the way. So let's look at it together to find out what is the heart of living, the heart in the widest and the depth of that word, not just the contents of a museum. If you ask that question, what is the heart of living, what would be your answer? Not calculated answer, personal answer or emotional romantic answer, which are meaningless. Right? And if I answer that question emotionally, or it is the most, our heart of living is the highest aspiration, which is sheer nonsense. But of living is the most exalted intellectual activity. Right? That's only very posh. Or the heart of living is to have a holistic outlook on life, sounds excellent. But factually it isn't. So what is the heart of living? Obviously no conflict whatsoever. Right? A brain that is in conflict all the time, having problems all the time. It is tremendous self-concern. Such a brain must inevitably be limited. Right? If one is thinking about oneself how to meditate, whether you can all the rest of it. Your very meditation is self-centredness. So the heart of living it appears, you can add to it more, to live without conflict. Is that possible at all? That is to understand the opposing elements in one's life. Right? Desiring one thing, opposed to that desire and another thing. You know, this corridor of dualities. And the self-centredness, as long as that self-centredness exists, there must be conflict. Because self-centredness is limited, small or petty. But you listen to all this but carry on. And you say that is not possibly modern society to live without self-centredness, at least little bit of it. Have you ever tried, have you ever done, lived without self-centredness for one day? Not to think about oneself. Just even for an hour. And see what happens. You haven't committed to anything. You can go back to yourself, self-centredness. So what is going to say how wrong it is, or right? It is the normal state of human beings, apparently. So if one really tries for an hour, actually do it, not try it, do it and see what happens. And if you do it one hour, you can extend it. You don't. it gives you tremendous energy. It gives you great sense of passion, not lust and all the business, but the passion to ask you something to fumble it to the very end of things. Thank you.