Kratom & 7-OH

hi david hi rosabelle the question on everybody's minds how is your dog bailey oh he started doing this thing where he gets up on his hind legs and paws at me while i sit at my desk really and insistent on getting my attention and yeah what do you think he wants from you do you have a feeling um maybe a compliment or something like that what do you think i think he wants food or he wants the ball that he loves playing with yeah bailey pissed on your bed recently i'm just wondering if there have been any more accidents around the house not that i'm aware of at least not on the bed but who knows it's all sorts of little corners of the house i haven't been looking at now today's flight the spirit episode is about kratom and something else called seven oh h i'm wondering if you've heard of either of those two items yeah because when we were in where were we were we in austin or when we were in texas there were so many shops that said kratom on the outside so many right i had to ask what it was i'd never heard of it before would it be fair to say that the sort of the recreational drug of choice in new zealand would be weed right marijuana i couldn't say i'm not really across i'm such a i'm such a good girl all right well look it's always been a pleasure as well give bailey a little pat for me i will send us some creation and we'll both try it too i'm david farrier in new zealand accidentally marooned in america and i want to figure out what makes this country tick now last year something weird happened when i was in new york i kept noticing all these smoke shops and gas stations selling something called kratom i'd been seeing this so-called supplement around for years but never really looked into it further and on this particular day i took a photo and posted it to my instagram story and metapromptly banned me from going live for a year something to do with illicit substances which was really weird because kratom wasn't particularly illicit as i said it's been around for ages it's advertised all over new york when i was there last and it's a plant extract from southeast asia sold at gas stations around the united states but more recently i started hearing about 70h maybe it's 7r i don't know how you say it anyway it's a much stronger form of kratom also being sold unregulated over the counter as well and then last month i met a guy who was addicted to the stuff kratom and 70h at various points so i figured it was time i learned about what the heck was going on with kratom and 70h here in the united states so prepare to buy something quite powerful and highly addictive over the counter because this is the kratom and 70h episode so rob what a beautiful long sleeve t-shirt you have on from new zealand band the veils who would have gotten you such a beautiful gift from new zealand i don't remember who got me this yeah it's a pretty cool guy i think um went in and got that for you while he was in new zealand but you know hopefully you enjoyed the show looking good um how are things going it's going good good how are you i'm excited about this episode because are you i have i have a personal investment in this what got me oh you've you've bought in the the kratom stock i am on it right now you have a kratom farm i am a lot of kratom on me right now no kratom and more recently 70h have just been these two things that have been in my brain but i have had no idea about physically not physically just mentally uh just wondering what the fuck is going on and this episode i hope the audio documentary will create a bit of um clarity around that i've never heard of either of these this is fantastic this is what i like um i weirdly i it came onto my radar because when i was in new york about a year and a half ago there was a sign on a uh it was like a corner store and it just said kratom kratom kratom so many words kratom i took a photo put it on my instagram instagram said it uh violated community standards for drug references and drug use and banned me from doing any not that i really did them banned me from going live for a year yeah and so my brain really hurt your instagram account that you stopped going live it hurt my instagram it's like your brand as a whole my brand but point being i am was amazed that this thing that was for sale in new york at every second store seemingly instagram would look at that and go this is something bad you shouldn't do this and that's where i got curious about the legality of the substance what it was how many people are using it and what the big deal is yeah i mean i to be transparent i i mean i don't drink alcohol uh-huh and i don't partake in drug use so i'm i probably uh am naive when it comes to this i think stuff regardless so me not knowing what it is only yeah says that i it's not your world it's not my world you're not thinking every new drug that comes out you're not thinking i have to give that a go i need to see what's going on confused by all of them too there yeah there was another one someone was telling us about uh-huh some like tranquilizer thing that people are just drinking and zombieing out uh there's a lot yeah and and also with the progression of weed and marijuana and thc and yes which here in california popping up everywhere yeah yeah i mean you can get services that essentially uber it to your door it's so commonplace and they have like um liquids that you can just like squeeze into your drink now to mushrooms i feel like also getting more uh headlines over here now yeah certain states you can legally have um mushroom gummies and that kind of thing and yeah i feel like the landscape is changing so quickly super confusing i'm similar to you i am not a big drug person like new zealand i think the thing we're kind of i don't know maybe it's a stereotype now but like weed is like marijuana is our thing i've desperately tried my entire life to find some type of weed substance that would give me some sort of stress relief or excitement or something i've tried my body is just every time so i know this is deeply unpleasant and bad and so i've tried i think we can't take to it i think we're somewhat similar where we like to have control of our faculties yeah completely i don't have any problem with people that partake in it it is just water down myself as you're speaking it's just for me i don't like lack of control um a hundred percent and but but i don't i don't have any judgment for people that i know plenty of people that partake in we're in la marijuana surrounded by it yeah yeah i always think of um there's a bill hicks quote basically about it was sort of based around the war on drugs and just the fact that um all the um great art that you love all the best albums all the best films all the artists that made all that really fucking high on drugs yeah you remove drugs and probably all your favorite moments of pop culture evaporate and disappear well there's an amazing um story of a a baseball pitcher that dropped acid and pitched a no-hitter oh i love this um they're they're let me see this that's no totally no please look it up this um that sounds like a dollop a dollop episode fodder almost let's see okay yes so this was doc ellis he was the pitcher for the pittsburgh pirates uh-huh and he threw a famous no-hitter against the padres in 1970 um he was he later revealed he was on lsd mistakenly thinking he had the day off that is incredible um the chances of that going well i imagine every other player could repeat the same thing and have a terrible experience yes that's amazing i've tried mushrooms a few times in places where it's legal and that seemed to me that seemed like a thing that i can understand i can understand why people enjoy doing it it's like a lot of laughter everything looked kind of elevated i one thing i could understand really clearly i understand um people using it therapeutically um for oh so much anxiety release to deal with trauma and grief i mean we're yeah we're in california there's places that are doing like ayahuasca trips and yeah ketamine therapy is a huge thing here i see everywhere now i understand the benefits of all of that um and i think for me when it becomes uh i i think my fear is feeling dependent on any thing lately and again that goes back to the control thing that's why i even like to mess with it you don't even have red bulls no no you get crazy on that shit matcha no you're not a coffee you're not a big coffee person but that said like i do it's because i know my personality is to get really into things and i have my matcha twice a day every day and it's i feel that's your thing yeah i i find other i i try to channel my addictive tendencies into either things that are not going to be harmful consuming on a regular basis or things that are productive i mean that's it's work but but again like who's to say that that's any less harmful to my psyche in the long term they should do studies on your body into the future about what the matcha content uh is doing to you long term i'm deeply curious to find out about that i um i think about this sometimes the bottom of a matcha iced matcha it gets kind of like cakey and yes there's substance in there you can see sediment in there i sometimes think that the inside my stomach just permanently there's maybe just like layer of caked on matcha that is never gonna leave my system reminds me of a thought that has never left my mind where i had a friend that got deeply into and wellness um back in the day when it was sort of first becoming a thing i'm talking 20 years ago when people were really into this and they were trying to convince me to get a i'm going to say this incorrectly a colonic um irrigation where essentially tube up the bum shove some like coffee and water into your bowels clean it all out it all comes out another tube and their entire reason behind that was they said david every time you eat a piece of cheese a bit of that cheese will get stuck to the lining um and then you're like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die of your bowels and you need to splash it out get it out i've never been able even though it's bullshit i've never been able to throw that thought yeah and i feel that's what that matcha thought is for you yes um but look addiction is the reason that uh kratom and 70h that's kind of the problem here and what we're going to get into because it is highly addictive and the fact it is sold uh where you also can buy a bottle of coke and some candy is bottle of coca-cola not cocaine okay so much crossover between like yeah uh so it's that juxtaposition that i think is super interesting this thing that is insanely can be insanely addictive and dangerous is also the same thing that is getting me banned from doing instagram lives just for taking a photo of the word of it and that's what i wanted to find out about in this week's doc it's a sunny la afternoon when i facetime with michael i've changed his name for this podcast who was sitting in his car somewhere in america's southeast he was on a lunch break it gets unbearably hot at all times i'm talking like 100 humidity 90 degrees outside so there's no relief from the heat but you take the good with the bad the reason i want to talk to michael is that he's had experience using both kratom and the newest 70h which is rapidly growing in popularity to give me some context for all this he tells me that he's a christian and in general has led a pretty straight edge life he's never seen himself as a drug guy or a heavy drinker but he first tried kratom as a student over a decade ago because he didn't think it was a big deal so in college one of my roommates introduced me to kratom initially he was like yo check this thing out it's like this plant from east asia it's supposed to be like painkillers whatever whatever and that was concentrated kratom shots they taste like shit i mean they're terrible but it gets you a nice whatever that'll happen back in 2012 fast forward to 2019 2020 pandemic right after the cbd law passed where the cbd stores exploded everywhere i was in a gas station one day and saw kratom i was like oh i remember this stuff let me try this again it was like five bucks at the gas station i thought no that's not bad so i was messing around with that for maybe a couple of months it was nothing and then when i got into construction a pretty physically demanding job so it kind of helps with pain i mean that's it's intended purpose helps give you a little boost of energy so i would take it in the mornings kind of as like a morning coffee type thing and never really thought too much of it thought it was this supplement a supplement that was actually pretty addictive he just didn't clock it at the time from the way he talks about it it felt like a daily ritual like having a cigarette or a monster energy drink or something now on low doses kratom can act as a sedating numbing effect and at really high doses and taken with other substances it can be really bad hundreds of kratom users have died often while using other things as well and then in 2023 70h flooded the market also found at gas stations and corner stores it features a compound derived from the kratom plant that's really really strong when did you first try the 70h roughly in 2024 september 2024 there's the gas station i got it from they got in 70 or 70h whatever you want to call it and he was like hey this is supposed to be like really really good and one little package is 20 bucks and i'm thinking okay well if i can break that up in eight servings that can last me a while i can save money doing this right took it and hit me like a freight train and it was i mean i've broken a bunch of bones so i've been on percocet and lortab and all sorts of and it felt just like that i remember i was closing a house and i took it on the way to that closing as a project manager and i was like i don't think i can function in this closing it hit me that hard it's wild michael knows how powerful it was because he's experienced powerful opioids before i broke my arm snowboarding when i was early high school snap radius and only clean in half and i i was on the top of the mountain and they have to take you to the hospital the bottom of morphine it feels identical to that so it's that same sort of full body numbness with a light airiness head high mixed with that the first week or so of taking it i don't want to make this an ad but it's it feels great but now i get no feeling he realized he was hooked i mean the kratom had him hooked already this was just a bigger hook i was like oh oh no this is not good but it was also nice like it felt fantastic and it made my day super easy so i was like oh this is cool by the time i realized i was hooked on these things it was it was too late i mean it was maybe two weeks later i was like okay i'll stop now you know i had my fun and i went into withdrawals almost immediately what was happening what was your body doing it took about 12 hours for me to realize it but throughout the day i was getting anxious i was getting a little sweaty i thought i was just getting sick or something it was over the winter i was i was getting a cold but then i couldn't sleep and i was like tossing and turning and the anxiety got worse and you know i started sweating more and more i started to feel terrible and i was like what is happening and i had another one and i took another half just to help me sleep because i mean it knocks me out if i take them so i was like well let me let me take this just help me sleep and then it everything went away immediately and i was like oh shit this is not good so that kind of started my battle of trying to kick this shit and i have not done well with it if i'm being honest i wanted to zoom out a little to understand how this sort of product is just allowed to be sold over the counter here in the united states so i called pat awesome from an organization called partnership to end addiction what we're seeing with 708 reminds me of what we saw with vaping and nicotine where you know there's been like an arms race to increase the potency of nicotine and similarly with cannabis right the potency of thc has gone from like four percent in the 90s and now you can get products that are in 90 or higher in terms of their potency level and so this is one of those things where i think we're on the cusp of of a problem and part of it it's hard to get your hands around the data in terms of how many people are even using it so we have a study that's been done in the United States and it's been done in the United States and we have a study from a few years ago that showed that you know 1.6 million people in our country had used it and yet the kratom association would say and this is from a couple years ago that it's somewhere between 14 and 16 million and then but you look at the billion dollar multi-billion dollar market you have to believe that to get to multi-billions you've got a lot of people that are using the substance so you know the like i said the concern is that we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid and we're at the bottom of the pyramid i mean kratom's been around for years and years it's available in every state um and a wildly different kinds of availability and because in some states it's banned completely in other states there's no regulation at all and some states is treated as an herbal supplement and others there are age restrictions so it really varies broadly across the country Then there's the newer 7OH. industrial strength version so in in kratom there are over 40 alkaloids which just think of them as different chemical compounds right and 70h is one of the compounds in the plant itself is less than two percent but what's happening in the u.s is that it's being extracted and made in different formulations whether it's extracts or shots or powders whatever and made available um the belief is that it is 13 times more powerful than morphine and yet available in gas stations and convenience stores and vape shops and online which is just objectively to me seems fucking crazy you might say that i agree and right now 70h is being marketed heavily which is probably why i ended up hearing about it in the first place so i know people who have gone to say the local convenience store and all of a sudden there's a promotion that says gee if you you know you like the kratom you're the kratom products you've been buying so why don't you try this it's a little bit stronger it might give you a better effect and they're offering them 70h for free but that often results in ongoing use and of course because it has i've heard it described it's a little bit more powerful and it's a little bit more powerful and it's a little bit more like um i've heard it described as an atypical opioid and i've also heard it described by different researchers as an opioid so in any event it attaches to the same receptors in the brain that percocet oxycontin vicodin and heroin and fentanyl attach to and so therefore the more use the more likely the person is going to develop dependence and or an addiction to it all this exactly and as i talked to pat i discovered people come to these products for a variety of reasons it depends on the person so just as you know there are people that use you know meth you know cocaine heroin fentanyl and so forth and they've they don't overdose um people that are on 70h can use it without overdosing um in many cases the overdose deaths that we have seen have been 70h in combination with other substances right so a lot of poly substance use but that said um there are instances where people have died from 70h and and people who have died from just using regular kratom so the concern is that we don't know you know exactly what people are taking you know this is a rapid commercialization this is going to be at least by some estimates a 20 billion dollar market in the u.s by 2035 double digit growth rate so you know people are smelling you know dollars right yeah um and and as i as i said you know the guy that i was talking about that i was trying to use kratom to stay away from alcohol ended up spending a thousand dollars a week on it so you know there's a lot of money to be made many people who don't have insurance look at kratom as a solution for you know i can't afford i you know i i don't have insurance coverage i can't afford to go to a doctor i can't afford to pay for prescription pain medication and this is my answer so don't take it away from me yet at the same time you know there's like i said this camp of people that are very worried about what's in it and the addiction properties and so forth so we desperately need more research to understand what are the therapeutic benefits and what dosing you know what what should be in the product and what should be in the drug and what should be in the drug and what should be in the product versus the contaminants because that's another thing that you know there's been an alarm raised about is you know heavy metals or salmonella or other contaminants in it so we just need to know more stay tuned for more flightless bird we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors support for flightless bird comes from shopify now if there's one thing i'm really good at it is putting off doing something it might seem like i make a lot of stuff but there are a load of things that kind of go by the wayside just because i don't start and procrastinate a lot it's partly due with my spicy brain it's partly it's a whole load of things let's not get into that but essentially if you've been sitting on a business idea then shopify makes it easy to make it happen and that's what i've realized you can't do everything on your own sometimes you need help and if there's a tool like shopify that can help you get your business idea off the ground i say grab it with both hands and i'll see you in the next video go for it because with shopify you've got everything you need to start selling included in the product and ready from day one something that shopify does really really well to help you actually sell your stuff is the checkout essentially it helps more people finish their purchase because a load of people will have something in the cart and then they'll get distracted they're not sure if they're going to buy it or not but with shopify when they come back to their cart their details are already saved then just one day they're going to be able to one click and they're done any business owner knows that that makes your life a whole lot easier it's a win for you it's a win for the customer because they get what they want so yeah the checkout so yeah the checkout system on shopify is great it's essentially a one-click checkout it also works in conjunction with the shop app which allows you to see all stores on shopify's platform you might be introduced to your next big obsession yourself also a shopify growth because shopify handles getting your stuff started and the checkout you've got more time to focus on growing your business and shopify gives you so many of the tools to do that that's why having the right platform like shopify is critical you don't want to spend all your time trying to fix mistakes and figure out how to do that you want to spend your time in the sun enjoying these precious moments with the people that you like not troubleshooting stuff so shopify helps you with all that stuff and yeah if you're still wondering shopify is behind millions of businesses worldwide from household names to small outfits that are just getting started that could be you next with shopify nothing stands between your idea and a real business so go make it one if you're ready to stop putting off your business and start hearing then you're ready for shopify start your free trial at shopify.com bird today you heard that right start your free trial today at shopify.com bird that's shopify.com bird support for flightless bird comes from zazzle now recently i got a birthday present for a friend who is obsessed with sesame street i found a place where i could get them a custom mug with their name their favorite character the cookie monster and i got that care of zazzle which has been sorting out a whole bunch of my gifts lately i have friends who are obsessed with marble stuff and star wars stuff they've got some of those products licensed and you can put your favorite characters on a variety of different things it's like the perfect gift i'm on a big mug buzz at the moment but there are t-shirts pillows all sorts of things basically i've always had a problem where three days out from a birthday i panic and i realize i have nothing on my mind and i don't know where to get things if you have that problem then zazzle fixes that as well because you can just dive on there and you can find something for your friend really really quickly essentially it's a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product like i said earlier a mug a tote bag a card a phone case and make it mean something you're not buying a gift you're making one it's that customizable you can browse millions of designs easily or you can start entirely from scratch and build something completely your own either way you're the designer everything is made on demand so there's no out of stock you pick it you customize it and you are all done i've just put a marvel uh pillowcase in my bag and good god my friend is going to love this i'd also like you to know that while i'm reading this ad uh rob's dog lee is looking up at me lovingly i am dog sitting and i think i might get huxley a gift too what do you like huxley i feel you might be like a grogu guy right now save 25 on your first order at zazzle.com that's 25 savings on your first order at zazzle.com go make something's amazing zazzle.com endless summer escapes start here travel the worlds of netflix irl inspired by fan favorites like stranger things and squid game brave the upside down face off with the front man play leveled up arcade games shop exclusive merch and enjoy themed food and drinks beat the heat play eat and shop on repeat at netflix house at galleria dallas bring your crew and save get your tickets today at netflix.com house devil's advocate on behalf of the commercial entities that are selling the stuff to people are there any positives in a 708 or a kratom product is the fact that it might help people get off stronger opioids and tailor off is anything that you see that is positive about this trend at all so there certainly are people from an anecdotal perspective who have said that they were able to get off of opioids using kratom i wonder though um are you trading one kind of opioid for another right so there's that issue um and again we we have fda approved products including you know sovoxone, buprenorphine, naltrexone, right, and methadone as things that have a proven track record. So rather than risk it, I would rather see people go with the FDA-approved medications than to try a do-it-yourself program with peratum, with 70H. And that brings us back to Michael, who feels so alone in all this. No one knows that I'm on this stuff. I keep it secret. It's shameful to be addicted to gas station heroin, you know what I mean? And how much are you taking currently? What does your day or week look like? There are 50 milligram tablets, and that's a 30-pack. I'll go through one of these a day. The bad thing is, just like any drug, once you start building a tolerance, you've got to increase and increase and increase to not get high, because I don't get high off of it anymore. It's to avoid withdrawals, because that's the other thing with the 70H. Your body burns it off within six hours. It's got a six-hour half-life. So, you know, you take a dose in the morning. By the afternoon, you're starting the early stages of withdrawal. This seems like a crazy high amount, so I checked in with Pat again. So generally speaking, I would say that that is an extremely high dose compared to what most people are doing. But then again, the questions I would ask are, you know, is that actually what he's getting? Because we're finding that in many cases, what is, because it's not regulated, right, what's in the package may not be what is actually reported on the package, right? And then I think it's important to know, you know, is it 50 milligrams of actual 70H? Is it 50 milligrams of maybe a kratom extract blend or active alkaloids? What other fillers are in there? So I'd have a whole bunch of questions. But nevertheless, you know, high doses like that, the concern being that it leads. To the same kind of sedation that you can see with opioids, and you can end up having an overdose and or a seizure or liver problems, etc. Okay, back to Michael, who, whatever dose that he's taking, is still taking a lot. As far as trying to get off this stuff, what are you doing currently? Have you talked to professionals or rehab or your doctor? Yeah, so there is a outpatient rehab where I live that I've been involved with. They're fantastic. They're fantastic. And they'll give you, you know, I asked for a Suboxone, but that's kind of like, you know, nailing a picture with a sledgehammer. It's trading one bad thing for another in my view. But I've tried the outpatient rehab. I've tried online resources and nothing seems to stick for me, unfortunately. He's tried and failed several times to get off this. He came close, but he couldn't make it stick. There's a couple of different methods. Cold turkey is the tried and true. You stop taking it, you white knuckle it for three, four days. It's going to be an absolute hell. And then you come out on the other side and you just work through it. There's some other things you can backslide into regular kratom to take the edge off and then go from there. So the most successful time was about a week that I was off of it. And I did that by tapering off of it. I took about two weeks and reduced my intake daily and then went cold turkey, went through hell for three days. You know, I just said I had to. And then was off of it. I can take those three days. It's the what they call pause, P-A-W-S, post acute withdrawal syndrome that really kicks your ass, man. It is, I mean, just depression, anxiety. You feel just muted. You're not sleeping. I mean, the insomnia can last like two weeks. And I've got a five-year-old and a one-year-old and not sleeping is not an option for me. So it's insidious. It just traps you. This stacks up with everything Pat says. If you are using a relatively low dose and you want to get off of it, you can taper off of it. And by tapering, you know, it might be 10% going down, maybe 10% a week or so. You may need some comfort medications and you might need some clonidine to help. Those people who have been using higher dosing levels and especially 7-OH products may actually need to go to a doctor. They may need to go into a medically supervised detox. Doesn't mean it has to be inpatient. Could probably be outpatient. But there you're going to use something like Suboxone, buprenorphine to slowly taper off of it. And it may take a week to 10 days, something like that to taper off of it. That said, I actually was speaking to a woman whose son is now in his second rehab. He had been doing well for a while. And then relapsed after 90 days and did well for a while longer. Relapsed after 30 days. And so there is a strong pull for it. My day-to-day, it doesn't really negatively affect me while I'm taking it. Like I'm pretty with it, pretty successful in my job. My family doesn't know that I'm on this stuff. So my interactions with my family isn't affected, with my kids or anything like that. So immediate effects, there's no real negative outside of the money that I'm spending on this. I don't think it's a fortune, but one of these is a hundred bucks. Now I make good money, so it's not like it's bankrupting me by any means. But I tell you, I wish I wasn't spending a hundred bucks a day on this. And again, many users like Michael are alone in this. They've tried to stop, they know they need to, but it's so, so hard. Does your family or your partner or sort of anyone close to you know about this? No. Mm-mm. Only strangers. I've reached out to. And tried to form bonds, accountability partners, things like that. So no, no one in my immediate family knows, or really in my life. What do you feel is stopping you from talking to your partner or people closer to you about this? Is it the shame factor? Yeah, no, absolutely. It is shame for sure. Um, sorry, I'm gonna get a little emotional here, but you know, I'm a father, a husband, and just the fact that I've got this secret that is so devastating to my life and I can't feel like I can share it. It's just, this is the first time I've talked to someone face to face about it and the true depths of where I'm at. And yeah, it's, it's all shame. You might be surprised at how well people take it around you. I don't know. You know, this shit can build up, man. And it can, um, it might be less of a. Barrier than you think. But I can only imagine how fucking tough it is and, uh, infinite respect for you trying to feel this out. You know, it's insidious, especially trying to be a role model, you know, to my boys, one, the best for them. And knowing that this is out there and in a couple of years they may stumble across it. I know I've got to warn them and warn as many people as I can not to come across this. I've been planning to try some of the stuff for the episode, a small dose of Kratom is probably not the end of the world, but I've become curious about what a really strong whack of seven Oh, eight would feel like. What did Pat say? 13 times more powerful than morphine. And the more I hear about it, I think, no, no seven Oh, eight for me. First, don't try it. Tell your friends not to try it. Cause even if you're responsible, even if you're like, I'm going to take it once and never try it again. I. Would not want you to experience the same thing I'm experiencing. And one taken at once could lead to that. And if you can avoid it, do it in the middle of all this though, in his shame and his angst and his habit. I found it surprising how Michael thought about the regulation of this drug in general. And in his closing words to me, I guess this is what America is wrestling with right now. Yes. I've been thinking about that. My initial reaction is obviously ban it immediately. Ban it. This cannot be available, but then I've talked to people in the rehab or online who have, let's say chronic pain, right? Or they deal with a severe issue, but they don't have health insurance. They don't have a way to go to the doctor. They don't have, you know, support and they're able to take this in moderation. People shouldn't be punished for my inability to take this in moderation. Right. And I I'm a firm believer in that for anything. So I know Florida, the state of Florida outright bandit, they scheduled it a, the same thing as a, you know, regular painkillers and immediately went off the shelves. And I know that caused chaos in Florida. People who were hooked on it, who didn't have access anymore. And suddenly people are going through withdraws and I know that's terrible. So an outright immediate ban. I don't know if I can get behind that. Certainly more warnings. I know John Oliver did a piece. Hopefully, you know, when this comes out, more people will be aware of it. But awareness, I think is our first defense against this thing. Everyone's situation is going to be different. Like I said, people are using this responsibly. They're using it to do whatever that looks like. So who am I to say they can't do that? Right. But I can only say if this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. Endless summer escapes start here, travel the worlds of Netflix, IRL, inspired by fan favorites, like stranger things and squid game, brave the upside down face off with the front man, play leveled up arcade games, and have fun in your own comfort zone. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Shop exclusive merch and enjoy themed food and drinks. Beat the heat. Eat, play, eat, and shop on repeat at Netflix House at Galleria Dallas. Bring your crew and save. Get your tickets today at netflix.com slash house. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about Eblis? Eblis, labrakizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, Eblis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Eblis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Eblis. Before starting Eblis, tell your doctor, if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about Eblis and visit eblis.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Yeah, giant thanks to Michael for talking to me about that. I think it takes a lot of courage when you haven't talked to anyone just to even put your voice out there. It's insane. This episode just made me think it's more insane than what I thought it might be. Yeah, I don't think it's. It's fucking crazy. The fact that you can get it at a gas station and it's, he said, 13 times more powerful than morphine? That's what some stats have it at and how. And again, unregulated, so doses are different every time, but that's how high it can get. And you can see. I mean, my only experience with opioid-like products when I messed up my back, I took something called Tramadol. And for me, I could absolutely see the appeal of that. I felt like I was in, like described as a warm bath I just felt much more chill. My mouth was dry as fuck. It was hard to talk, but I got the appeal. And that was a tiny dose of an opioid-esque substance. Well, it's interesting too, the fact that it's sold at a gas station. A lot of places, no age limit. No. Just what assumptions you have about a product at that point of. Well, like. This must be safe. That must be safe. This, they must have done. The FDA has been so harmful if I can add this with gas at the pump. Completely. I think that you're not getting it from some dicey back alley. You're getting it where you get candy and milk and bread. You're not getting it from a weed shop. You're not getting it from a drug dealer. It's a gas station. And this has also been going on for a while. You know, I thought this had cropped up recently, but these products have been out for. for a while and have been refining themselves. And obviously more and more people getting on them. Some. You know, and I was thinking, you know, I still think probably be a more clickable episode if at the beginning of this episode we'd had a shot of 7-0-H. But after talking to these people, I'm like, fuck no. No, I mean, this story is exactly why. Yeah. I've always been. Hesitant. Hesitant. To diamond. And I mean, I was afraid of. substances because I can imagine this trajectory and want to avoid it at all costs because it's devastating and seeing the repercussions and the havoc that it causes. I'm trying to avoid that. The amounts that Michael was paying, you know, over $100 a day, what it's done to his body and brain. The fact that he doesn't feel. He doesn't feel it, but if he stops taking it, that's the problem. Well, that, that was insane. When he said that he's only taking it to stop the withdrawal symptoms from coming in, it is just sustaining a baseline. Which is, yeah, just a horrific concept to me and he can afford to do it, but a lot of people can't. The thing where it gets complicated is this thing where in the United States, you have a bunch of people with various chronic pain, pains, and they can't get help and this is a way for them to get it in a way that they think is completely safe. Again, it's sold at a corner store, therefore it must be safe. And then you run into all these other problems with it. Well, I think it just highlights kind of systematic issues in this country as a whole. Of one, like regulation and trust that we have that the systems in place are looking out in our best interest and not just trying to make money and healthcare and people getting care they need if they do have chronic pain. And that it's not just going to, uh, wreck them financially. Completely. And getting something that is cheaper option. Yeah. Getting something that is completely unregulated. We literally don't know what the dose is and the product you're getting. Yeah. Speaking of the idea of getting it for this episode for us to take, probably couldn't do it anyway, press release March 3rd, Gavin and Newsome, um, announces prohibition of illegal Kratom products. Um, so this is from back in. March continuing the state's comprehensive efforts to crack down on dangerous and illegal drugs from store shelves. Um, Newsome announced today, uh, a 95% compliance rate from California businesses with the removal of Kratom products from California businesses, um, agents have removed 3,300 Kratom and seven Oh H products. So that's not like individual. Like packets that's different brands of Kratom and seven Oh H and that's the other crazy. Thing. There are so many variances of this thing, often the packaging on the pills. And John Oliver did do a really good piece on this. And he mentioned something that we hadn't mentioned in our doc where the packaging is essentially just like all different packaging, promising different things is stamped on top of exactly the same pill. And it's all marketing to marketing chaos. Yeah. I mean, not to sound like a total idiot, but even, even like. T H C versus CBD. When we, when you start breaking down the marijuana plant into its different components and this part of it does this, this part of it does that. Now we're talking about these supplements that are different components of that in that the everyday user, uh, stolen into a gas station and buying this and seeing that this is gonna help me with my chronic pain is meant to be informed. Completely. Which. Which pieces of this are doing what for you and at what levels and what's healthy and what's not it's completely wild West territory. And again, even the fact that when you and I and Rosabelle were driving around Texas, that we're seeing signage all over the place and yet in LA, there's nothing. New York, there's something, but apparently Facebook bans you for posting about it. It's just wildly unregulated and unclear what the fuck is going on. And I think it comes. Back to that central point you said, which is you just make an assumption. I make an assumption that anything I buy from a corner store will be safe for me. Yeah. And the fact this is there, yeah, it's mind blowing to me. I, which goes all the way down to like the type of processed foods we're getting from grocery stores too. And like, I mean, that's another episode conversations around microplastics. And yeah, it's like, I feel like this is the most extreme version of this argument, but you're right, you can take it down to just the amount of processed shit we're eating. Yeah. Which is something I have to think about cause I love processed foods and I'm having to remind myself that that's not how humans naturally eat. Yeah. Even today I was reading that Trump is, um, removing, there's chemicals that have cancer risks that he's allowing back into our food supply. Oh, great. Yeah. Uh, they approve more forever chemicals. No words. Yeah. It would be nice if things were improving and when you sort of see us taking steps backwards, really annoying. Well, and it's hard to, most people don't have the privilege of being able to care enough that no, what's being put in their bread isn't going to harm them longterm. It's just, this is going to be the cheapest thing at the grocery store or the one, my kid elites. Yeah. The thing that'll make my kid happy. My, there's a reason fast food does well. It's like cheap and to not have institutions higher up that are looking out for the well being and not just making things quick and cheap and to maximize profits. Which is what a massive part of America is all about, right? It's just like maximizing profit, which brings us back to this massive billion dollar industry that is Kratom and seven Oh H yeah. I reached out to the New Zealand drug foundation just to quickly find out what the Kratom situation was because I feel increasingly out of touch with New Zealand. I thought maybe Kratom is everywhere there as well. Uh, it's not, there's a little bit of Kratom. And New Zealand, they said, um, but definitely not to the extent of an availability like you see in the U S a bit of a gray market product that's usually sold as a herbal remedy that varies wildly in contents and quality, which is similar to America. There's been some elements of seeing Kratom and powder form in New Zealand. There will no doubt be some of the drink products out there that people are brought back from overseas, but they're not common. And we're not seeing a lot of it in New Zealand. Uh, the drug foundation mentioned to me that. Yeah. it's most likely being sourced online. um maybe that is my next career move next time i go to new zealand i just take a uh suitcase load of 70h see how that goes i mean hopefully you might not want to talk about that on the podcast no it's a joke on the podcast don't do that that was a joke terrible idea um if you have any experiences um terrible medium or maybe you've had a positive experience um with it although i don't imagine there's many of those stories around flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com uh i'm really curious if anyone listening to today's show has had experiences maybe you're you're using it right now i'm just really curious to know what you think of it whether you why you started taking it and what your situation is now because obviously not all of the users will be in a as much of a dialogue with you but i'm really curious to know what you think of it and why you started taking it and what your situation is now because obviously not all of the users will be in a as much of a dialogue with you but i'm really curious to know what you think of it and why you started situation as michael was but i'd like to sort of get an indication of that flightlessbredchat at gmail.com jay wrote in with further feedback on the titanic panic episode this episode really seems to be getting a lot of people talking which i didn't expect people are very passionate about the titanic they really are um one thing you missed out that is i think a huge episode that i think helps spread titanic fever amongst us millennials was the titanic expedition tour there's been circling around the u.s for decades it's got a website the titanic exhibition.com if you want to sponsor this show get in touch um i'm 35 born in 91 from saint louis louise saint louis saint louis saint louis say saint louise i got two wrong options and saw this exhibit not once but twice both times i believe were on vacation but once might have been here probably an insanely popular field trip for 90s kids and was a popular pop-up again and again and again and again and again and a lot of the exhibits at science and history museums a lot of the exhibit is artifacts from passengers which i think is part of titanic's stickiness in our hearts and also tied up in this memes millennials love memes and millennials love titanic somehow standing at the front of a boat with your arms spread out was an irl meme before online memes existed i think titanic was perfectly timed to capture specifically peak millennials like your interviewee on the episode and myself older millennials like you david fuck you might not get it and i think that's a good that is a good point i think it's really fair yeah i think it's a really really good point some of this is all just about timing completely carrie rodan inviting me to her wedding i have two friends no not her wedding their friend's wedding let me read the email we'll figure it out together i have two friends one from new zealand and one from america my friend thinks that david is a national treasure thanks carrie's friend i don't know if this is episode worthy but he moved to new zealand for her and their wedding is going to be in the greater la area she would love david to be a guest at her wedding and i couldn't resist reaching out on the off chance he would accept it's a very interesting courtship proposal so if david is interested let me know and i'll get in touch i have two reactions to that number one could be a funny episode maybe a fusion a sexual and romantic and spiritual fusion of a new zealander and an american the other thing i don't like weddings yeah i find them this entire day sometimes two days taken out of the calendar spoiled can't be on your phone can't do anything else you're stuck with a bunch of strangers you don't know often having to travel long distances to a place that's um topic right now the weddings given what just took place in new york the giant travis kelsey kelsey kelsey the tnt wedding huge surprise wedding at madison square garden madison square um i was just watching i just wrapped the latest season of hacks and a big plot line was the main comedian getting a headline spot at madison square garden and how hard it was to get a slot at madison square garden not in the you're not that hard in there if you're taylor swift it's fascinating i am scared to talk about taylor swift and travis kelsey because of all the things i've talked about that is the thing where i get made to feel very bad i'm just gonna say it was a funny cultural moment it was a huge cultural moment especially was huge seeing and knowing a few people that were at the wedding oh completely my wedding and instagram feed was a lot of people um some that have been on the show some people that i've known back in new zealand involved in the music world that were all posting photos looking very dapper very beautiful uh with a taylor swift song paired to the post saying oh great um celebrating love celebrating love which i told you you should have posted our magic castle photo i should have asked both in suits we're wearing suits would have been a funny post with for those that got the reference look love is important love is good it seemed maybe too niche though and too specific to la i don't know that it was that normal for um people a bunch of people to have friends posting in suits that went to taylor swift's wedding the onion did a really fun parody where they were talking about how their wedding tour is about to take off and the wedding will next be in la texas etc but look we wish the lovebirds all the best you and may when i get married one day may my wedding be as um lush and uh well attended as theirs a lot of people wrote in about the gnats and fruit flies in my apartment i don't remember what episode i mentioned this on but i have a huge problem david wrote jenna regarding the fruit flies in your apartment i believe they're fungus gnats horrible thing to hear that's not what you want to hear a lot of people have said i've been fighting with my house plants i've been battling with them for about a year and i refuse to give up basically a bunch of listeners wrote in saying that when you buy a new plant uh you can sometimes bring in the eggs and the larvae it's one or the other i don't know which in the top layer of soil and they just keep on breeding so i'm currently looking at products uh to buy that will kill them also considering somehow rehoming the plant just leaving it putting them out for another family to grab from the side of the road and deal with just embracing the gnats and there's inevitably there's one a day that will like land on me or fly into me and i'm like you little in fact they're fungus gnats as well yeah not happy about that megan wrote in new york trash feedback random here but i did my master's thesis on the network of trash and wanted to share the reason new york wasn't on the list of most waste and landfills is because they ship out their other states or even other countries there's surprisingly a big economy around waste management michigan is ranked number one on that list because canada ships a lot of their waste to michigan okay that makes more sense it's not just michigan being wasteful it's that they're they're in importing waste yes i've been thinking a lot rob lately about the importance of context and how i think especially in a very busy world context is lost all the time this is a perfect example yes yes of that um i never thought about trash being shipped not just around the country but overseas and vice versa i mail you my trash sometimes you do you do in a box and also in regards to recycling justin wrote in there was once a show on hbo um called bullshit featured pen and teller um they debunked communist beliefs it was over a decade before the age of misinformation we live in now and seen very evidence-based they did never talk about it and they don't even talk about it in this episode and recycling and in the end i think it was maybe glass and aluminium that were worth it but the rest weren't question mark i'd have to re-watch it to see yeah i was afraid to bring up recycling because the possibility is that it's not as good as we think it is right because i've heard that i don't know the facts behind that um no and it's got to be doing some good i look i think we should do a separate cycling episode just gonna say it i'm keen and finally endless people writing in saying we need to go to chile's we're going to do it rob and i are planning it chile's is not close to where we live in la but we're going to make a drive angela says i love the episode idea about chile's my first date with my now husband was at a chile's 16 years later we look back and laugh at how kitschy it is i'd also like you to do an episode on public libraries we like public libraries even though public libraries are all over the world u.s i can't say live yeah hard time with that yeah library you get a marriage you get you get american when you say it uh yeah i really struggle with that word i've worked in a large public library system for over 21 years and has seen some crazy shit thank you angela i also like the idea of a library i love libraries i need to figure out how to make it a compelling episode angela you may be the solution for that Yeah, you need to find a dark hold. strange story within the library yeah i actually found out um sort of separate dark strange hole i uh the pool i used to swim at in in uh dark strange hole uh sort of relates to that i've got a lot of thoughts flying around in my mind at the moment the pool i used to swim at regularly in new zealand uh i would often get in there i'd get nude in there i'd get changed i'd shower also you get nude in the pool okay to be clear no in the locker room okay yes that would be in a criminal offense yeah well i don't know you can do that in new zealand no in new zealand pools you need to have um be covering the bathing suit covering the genitals and um the breasts now there's someone convicted recently of taking hundreds of thousands of actually i exaggerated thousands of photos in the locker rooms of my pool in new zealand in the changing rooms oh um of over i think 400 different people and so are you in that i haven't got the list of names i imagine that's uh privileged within the courts but i uh i read that and i thought well i wonder this is like your your cecil hotel story all over again like the cecil of like doing a thing and then years later finding out something awful had been happening at that time i mean good to know he's been caught he's been banned so if you were swimming at one of my favorite pools in your market pool uh and you're in the locker i like to think you're safer than you were before is it what is it like the barton springs of new zealand or no not at all it's an indoor okay olympic size swimming pool okay i'm a big fan um they've got a great steam room they got a great sauna huge fan not a fan of being potentially taking photos of naked but hey we've all got bodies don't we um you know he was you know i'm not i'm not gonna go on a spiel trying to make it all okay it's not okay to do what this man did uh we will see you next week if you're getting any feedback we have flightless bird chat at gmail.com or we're on patreon if you want we want a bonus episode we do bonus episodes every week we've got different chat channels the community there is really beautiful and amazing and they're currently over there um giving us ideas for what tattoo you and i are both going to get rob because we reached 2 000 members um we also we finally uh made a little bit of headway on our history teacher audition process yeah we had hundreds of history teachers right in saying we would like to be your history buff so on patreon we've we've gone through the audition process a little bit and that's an episode so yeah that sounds interesting to you yeah i'm getting some uh i'm meeting some history teachers and getting some insane bits of u.s history pretty fucking funny which will eventually bleed over into the main feed as as episodes where david learns about um the boston tea party yeah there's just been instances where i feel i have huge gaps and the search for a really fun um person to come on and fill me in on that and you who's listening that's the plan well it's i mean as the impetus of the show too was things that i took for granted that are just known you have no idea about and i think within just schooling and here so there are things that seem like oh david has to know about this just just the piece of feedback we had recently about an iconic thing ingrained into a lot of americans kids brains about a spliced slave ship that was a huge part of our education there's so much here yeah that is just iconic that i have no idea about i'm excited to you as a grown man to learn since you're going back to school the elementary school level history lessons and it's all i understand it's all going to be mind-blowing like that's the thing it's this entire alternate history and also i'm just curious the way it's taught as well and like what is highlighted anyway flightlessbirdchat at gmail.com love your feedback love to hear from you and we will see you next week see you next week endless summer escapes start here travel the worlds of netflix irl inspired by fan favorites like stranger things and squid game brave the upside down face off with the front man play leveled up arcade games shop exclusive merch and enjoy themed food and drinks beat the heat play eat and shop on repeat at netflix house at galleria dallas bring your crew and save get your tickets today at netflix.com hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only BJ's Home of the Save.