Knicks Complete the Sweep! Plus, the Wizards Get the First Pick, and Will Wemby Be Suspended?

Coming up from Chicago, we have a loaded, Zach Lowe show, we're going to go inside the lottery room. What was it like in there? What was the reaction? And Jonathan Gavoni is here to break down all the scenarios. What are the wizards going to do at number one? What are the jazz going to do at number two? Is OKC actually going to try to make a push into the top four? If so, well, anyone bite, Memphis moves up to number three. Does that mean for John Marant, Chicago off to a running start on its next phase of rebuild. All the lottery implications, Pacers, Clippers, wow. That was the big outcome of the night. For me, we'll talk about Kevin Pritchard's tweet and the ramifications for both the Pacers and the Clippers going forward. John Krizenski joins us to talk about what is now a wild, wolves, spurs, series, whether Wembee, Will or should be suspended for game five after elbowing, not as read in all the nitty gritty of that series. Then we wrap it up with Fred Katz from the Athletic, talking the New York Knicks obliterate the Sixers. Get to the conference finals for the second straight year waiting on Detroit Cleveland. We talk about how one of the Knicks found in the last two weeks since going down to one against Atlanta. What's changed? Can they sustain it? Are they writing the sort of magic that happens to teams that get on championship runs? Can they actually win the championship? Will they be favored next round? Now where does Philly go from here? Tons of stuff. NBA is going crazy. Lots of stuff going on. We're going to cover all of it coming up on the Zack Lo Show. The Zack Lo Show is brought to you by Fandole. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. Fandole wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. Fandole is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandole Sportsbook app now and play your game. Twenty one over in select states, 18 or over in D.C., Kentucky, Wyoming, gambling problem called 1-800-Gambler, called 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zack Lo Show where we preempt coverage of the lottery that's coming up next to talk about what is suddenly an absolutely wild wolves spur series. Victor Wemmanyama throws an elbow. We've had a Tony Brothers versus Chris Finch, Royal Rumble. We had the NBA's version of the helmet catch by IO to sue new last night when it looked like the wolves might and probably collapse amid a hail of turnovers. No, it's too too. Victor Wemmanyama was ejected early in the second quarter for smashing Nas Reed's throat with an elbow, a nasty elbow at that. And it didn't look like we would be here, Mr. Krasinski, game one, the wolves steal it, game two, blowout, game three felt like the moment where the spurs asserted their supremacy. And the wolves, like they do, just whatever you think is going to happen, the other thing is going to happen. Anthony Edwards looked more like Anthony Edwards, sensational fourth quarter on his way to 36 points. We have a series in the conference of my finals. It must have been a wild bloodthirsty atmosphere last night at the Target Center. It was, Zach Lowe. I mean, when you look at this whole series, there hasn't been a normal game. It feels like in any of them and that was anything but normal at Target Center on Sunday night. I mean, you have the elbow, you have Anthony Edwards with ground beef for knees, just like willing his team back into the fight. You have the spurs, young guys, like really taking it to the wolves. I mean, there was just great theater all around. It was super tense. I, you know, I think we're getting to a point where both of these teams don't really like each other similar to wolves nuggets. And so that kind of animosity breeds entertainment as well. And I can't wait to see what we still have in store for us in this thing. We are recording this at 10, 30 in the morning. We do not know Victor Wenbaniyama's status for game five. He was justifiably ejected. It was an absolute no brainer. The moment I saw it, I was like, well, that's a flagrant, too. I don't care who he is. He's out of the game. It was early in the second quarter, which I think actually is going to matter for the league's decision here. I am going to predict he does not get suspended for game five that he gets fined. But I will say this. I went down a rabbit hole last night of elbow related fines and suspensions. Have you done any elbow related research? A little bit of it. Yeah. I mean, you know, the Hassan white side one kind of came to mind. You know, I had a foot. I said the same thing, Zach was like after the game last night, I just said I would be surprised if they, they suspended Wenbaniyama because he does not have a history of violence. And I had a bunch of people in my reply saying, well, met a world peace. And I said, like, stop. What are we talking about here? We can't do that. Throw the met a world peace here decapitation of Oklahoma City, Ira James Harden out the window. It does. It's irrelevant as a precedent. I will say this. You could find whatever precedent you want in these elbow stuff in terms of fine versus suspension. I'll just go through. Can I go through a field? Please. Yes. You mentioned white side. I can't remember who he shoved. After the play, like, it was a Celtic, I think, nasty like forearm into the back. He was suspended a game for that non basketball play. I believe after the whistle, Vince Carter was suspended one game for kind of a retaliatory elbow to the head of Steven Adams, who was the victim in several incidents, which is broadly similar to what Wenbaniyama did. And I believe it was it was a regular season game. He was suspended one game. JR Smith was suspended for one playoff game for a swing through elbow. He was playing for the Knicks on Jason Terry. Jason Terry was all up in his jersey. He was annoyed. The Knicks were up by 20 midway through the fourth quarter, which again is relevant. And he swung through and he smashed Jason Terry's head. He got suspended one game. Those are all. And by the way, I don't think the wolves are going to lobby at all. I think the wolves are just going to be like, whatever happens happens. This guy's an amazing player. He has no track record of anything. We're not going to do the thing where we're badgering the league office. Like look at this clip. Look at this clip. Suspend them. And they don't want to if he suspended, find if he if he's not like, yeah, we're not going to we don't want to win cheaply. Then you can go the other way. Here are some other ones I found. Andre Drummond was fined, I think, $15,000 for elbowing Roy Hibbert in the back of the head. Kind of a softer elbow, but the back of the head, you just never know. It didn't look as violent as Wembees. David West was fined either 15 or 25 for elbowing Blake Griffin, kind of in the throat, but again, not with the same force that Wembe had. The closest one I could find of a fine was, this is a deep cut, Samuel Dalembeer, when he was playing for the Knicks, pretty viciously elbowed Jonas Valentinus, who was on the Raptors, hit him flush in the face in the third quarter, regular season, and was just fined. So again, like you can go, you can do the thing if you're a fan of this team, you find this precedent. If you're a fan of this team, you find this other precedent. I will say this of the of the ones that were just fined and not suspended. And I'm sure there's a longer list. Victors was definitely the most violent and the most targeted. Like if they actually suspended him, I really don't think the spurs have that much of a gripe because it was a very violent, very targeted hit and they're lucky he hit him in the throat and not in the face because you can't head injuries are different than, you know, like kicking a guy in the groin, whatever, it's just a different level of risk. Just based on the violence of it, it's a suspendable offense, but it's also you can find precedent for just finding that are pretty similar. And I think the reason he won't get suspended and I'm okay with this if a little squeamish is number one, he has no track record of anything that I can remember anyway. Number two, it was early in the game and he essentially was suspended for that game for the most part. And number three, and I'm not sure how you feel about this, but it's not just that it's the playoffs and it's a huge game and nobody wants to see a huge game decided by this, by people leaving the bench, by whatever letter of the law thing happens. The NBA has clearly decided that the playoffs are going to be a completely different game than the regular season with way amped up physicality and that people are going to be elbowing him and fouling him and everybody just across the board. It's going to be wildly more physical and I think they need to take ownership a little bit of something like this where it's like, yeah, if you let that stuff happen, if you're standard in the playoffs is this, things like this are going to happen and I'm not excusing it. It was an awful play. It was super dangerous. It was super violent. But I do think the argument that we have to treat it a little bit differently because of the context of the playoffs, not just the, not just the importance of the game, but the environment of the games is pretty legit. So I'm going to say they find him, I'm going to be okay with that. And I also think Wolves fans would be fair to say if this were a different player with the same track record, even like a lesser player with the same track record, he might get suspended because it was a very violent, very targeted, like he looked at him, he wound up and he smashed and I was reading the throat. Yeah, I think that to start, I would say I'm with Uzak. I don't think he should be suspended in terms of, I don't want to see that. as the swing factor in a series that has been competitive against two really good teams. And something that was, you know, violent, and but I don't think malicious in that way because the one thing that did bother me about the play's act was that you can tell in real time he looks over his shoulder, he thinks for a second. - You know. - And then he acts. And so there was pre-meditation involved there. - And he didn't fight about it when he was ejected. He was like, okay, that seems right. I don't know, I'm ejected, I'm ejected. Okay, bye-bye. - And I will say to this, to your other point, I understand him being frustrated. Like the wolves have gotten very physical with him. They have bumped and banged and chipped and done things to try to frustrate him and get under his skin. There are wolves fans who will pull a million clips of Anthony Edwards getting fouled, going to the basket and Rudy Gobert getting hit in the head as well. This is just a really physical series. And so that does not justify the elbow at all, but given he is not dream on green, he is not men of world peace, he is not even like a Dylan Brooks or Lou Dorte. I just don't think that there's enough to look at and say, this guy has a history of these issues and this goes above and beyond and so we are going to suspend you for a game. But it was absolutely violent, it was reckless, it was premeditated, he lost his cool in that moment and it was pretty frightening. You're right, if he's an inch higher, who knows where Nazaried is right now. - I think both outcomes would be fair. Like I think you could make a legit argument for finding him and letting him play and or suspending him for one game. I'm going to be fine when they don't suspend him. All circumstances, I'm not going to feel great about it. I'm not going to feel like, oh, it's a no-brainer, it's the right outcome. Stephen A's tweet last night about like, I hope they don't suspend it, it would be abysmal, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that, but I think it's acceptable to not suspend him. So let's assume that he indeed is playing game five. He did not play the last 2.75 quarters of game four and the wolves tried hard to not win the game and ended up winning the game behind a brilliant Anthony Edwards game. And I don't want to sleep on the two threes that Taren Shannon Jr. made late in the third quarter when the spurs were up like eight, nine, all of a sudden it's like kind of trouble time. And he hit those corner threes, those were huge shots. And you know, down the stretch, they made enough place to win it. I got a little ugly at the end. Did you have an angle of the helmet catcher that Justin Jefferson catcher, whatever it was? So I not in real time because where we're sitting, we're on the opposite baseline. And so Jade McDaniels, I had the great view of the pass. He made a great quarterback, Peyton Manning throw. But I couldn't see I/O on the other side of it because there was defenders in the middle. But then you watched the replay. And I thought initially he caught it cleanly. And then I saw, no, he did not. He used his foot. He, you know, one of my editors at the Athletic exec here tweeted like the foot of God, like, you know, Maradona's hand of God. And that's what it felt like. And not only did he hit it with his foot, but then he gathered himself and was able to grab the ball before it went out of bounds, like, that was the most incredible part of the whole play. They're up three. They're up three at that point, right? Yeah, hanging up on the thread. It definitely looked in mid-air like, oh my God, this is just disaster unfolding. Justin Champagne's gonna come in and hit a three. This is gonna be the most wolves playoff loss possible. And then I/O made an incredible play, sealed the game. And it was over from there. And by the way, you take out game two, which I realize you cannot do. The scoring margin of games one, three, and four combined is zero. It's dead even in those other games, which is interesting. I don't know. Let's assume he plays Wembee plays game five. Just what's left on the table from Minnesota in terms of adjustments on either end of the floor that you are interested to see? Yeah, I do think that one thing that they went away from that worked somewhat in game one. I mean, Wembee had 12 blocks. He was amazing in game one. It was incredible. But one thing that Terrence Henry Jr. said afterward is like, he's gonna have to block everyone. We're gonna keep coming at him. And they didn't really do that in games two, three, and the start of four. They looked a little bit more scared of Wembee. Understandably swatting everything. Like it's understandable what they were settling for floaters. They were not making a lot of their bunnies. And they were not shooting enough threes, I think. So if you look for a counter with Wembee on the floor, this is a very good shooting team, even with Dante Devin-Chenzo out, that I would expect that they would try to shoot over the top of him a little bit more, and then get that to spread the defense, and then maybe open up a few more driving lanes for them. But they haven't really shot at volume threes in this series, and I understand why, and especially with Devin-Chenzo out. But, you know, you have the Anthony Edwards, Mike Connellese hitting a couple of threes. Shannon is hitting some tiny threes. Like, you can do a few more things to breathe some more space into this offense. And I think that's gonna have to be big part of their diet going into game five. - Yeah, their three point volume is way down. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is Wembee-Nyama and his ability to guard the paint by himself, so no one else has to help. Another is they have just not let the wolves get in much of a rhythm in their pick and roll game. Like, the wolves get threes when Ann and go bare on screen roll, and they draw two, and the ball starts flying around. They haven't blitzed Ann, or put really either been up to the level of the screen. They're doing one of two things on it. If it's a regular pick and roll, they're dropping back. And I think the most encouraging sign from game four and game three, but particularly game four, was Ann started to poke a hole in that a little bit. He made a couple pull up threes. He made some mid-rangers. He attacked Fox on switches now and then, which is I think something he could do more. He had a couple explosive drives to the rim. He started to poke holes in that. Or we're just trapping you at half court before you can even run a pick and roll. They were confident that we can rotate out of that, especially when Wembee's on the floor. So the rhythm threes just haven't been there, but I wonder, given his success in game four, kind of poking at their pick and roll scheme, if they can get a little bit more of that. The other guy that I'm watching is Randall, who's averaging only 14 a game. And I just, I expected a lot more. The spurs are giving him whatever matchup he wants on switches, like it takes one screening action. And if you don't want castle, because he's tenacious, you can get Vicell, you can get Champenny. You might even be able to get Fox. And I expected a lot more just deliberate, get Randall a matchup and let him attack. And let him attack in space, particularly when Gobert is off the floor and they're trying to play Wembee in like a one man zone on the back line, put shooters in the corners, let Randall go against the favorable matchup. And I thought in game three, they just kind of lost their plot on offense a little bit. Like Ant would get doubled and give it up and then just take himself out of the play completely. It's standard half court being face guarded, which fine, he's spacing the floor. But it's Anthony Edwards, man, go get the ball back. And Randall was just like a statue on no matter who was guarding. And it could have been a favorable matchup. He wasn't coming to the ball. He wasn't demanding the ball. When his guy would throw the shade toward Ant, he wouldn't do anything, he wouldn't cut, he wouldn't screen. And I'm like, man, it just feels like there's so much low hanging fruit for Julius Randall and the wolves to grab. I don't really understand why they're not trying harder to grab it. Yeah, and that was one of the big issues in game three. Is there no game two, Zach, when the spurs really started to blitz Ant at half court and double him there and trap him, Randall and really the rest of the team was not moving to make themselves available for the pass to then trigger the four on three. And so it's been an activity on Randall's part, but then also the other part about Julius Randall that has really struggled with series is like, even when he does get the ball and tries to make a move, he's turning it over all the time. That's true. He had four turnovers in the first hand. They're handsy, man. They're handsy. And both Oklahoma City and San Antonio are very handsy defensively, very quick. And those types of approaches have given Randall fits in the past. And he has to find a way to be stronger with the ball and make better decisions, but mostly just do not give it up in traffic the way that he has. Because when they do, that's a turnover. San Antonio is going the other way. They're really good in transition and they're scoring points that way. And so they need a more composed, more poised, Julius Randall in two of these last three games, if they're going to pull what would be a huge upset? Huge upset. If Wembee's not suspended, the spurs having two of the last three at home, no divin chenzo, and limited, he must be starting to feel a little bit better because it's not just a production. It's that some of the trademark ant baskets have started to reemerge in the last couple of games, including he's got a couple like Backdoor cuts, where he's cut pretty explosively and then finished. That's just trademark ant stuff. The other guy is like, Deer and Fox is averaging 16 a game, 16.8 on 38% shooting in 22% on threes. And there's just been multiple moments in this series and in this playoffs where it's like, man, I would really like with Wembee either out or ejected or whatever. And I really would like to see Deer and Fox kind of step up. I mean, he's been fine. He got off to that quick start in game two. didn't put up big numbers because they didn't need them to. And everyone was like, Oh, yeah, great, D.R. and Fox showed up. Yet 16 points. Great. Um, I don't, I mean, I just think they're going to need more from him. And that, that, that contract is going to be interesting to monitor going forward. I'll tell you, Zach, like watching the series in real time, it feels like every time a spurs possession ends with Fox taking somewhat of a contested jumper or a jumper at all, that's a win for the wolves. Like he just does not look reliable right now in getting to his spots and knocking down shots that I've seen him making his sleep in his pet in the past. But I almost wonder if they're going to go under screens a little bit more against him because this, the spurs smartly in game two, three and less so last night, obviously, amped up the pick and roll usage with Wembee, which I think is really smart, particularly when Randall's on him, just uses gravity. And a lot of that depends on Fox making enough shots. He's just not making enough shots. Yeah. And I'll tell you like right now, I would venture to guess an honest wolves inside or in that locker room and on that coaching staff would say they're much more scared of Dylan Harper than they are of Fox. He's been unbelievable. Like the way that he just is relentless in attacking castle has been great as well. They are both weapons that are hard to deal with with their physicality with everything else. And Fox just is not on that level right now. And so unless that turns around, if Mitch Johnson keeps putting the ball in Fox's hands, I think that the wolves will live with that. Yeah. There was the one baseline drive where I think Shannon was on him and he like really drove hard baseline and hit the brakes and Shannon was fell out of the play and it was like, oh, that looks like deer and fox. Like that's the fast twitchy guy. He's just not getting by guys and getting getting open shots as easily as he was in his prime. And we'll see. It's two to the spurs, assuming when we play, it should still win. I mean, that game three was a pretty majestic performance, but the wolves having 1.6 minutes into the game was just like, I don't even know what you're supposed to do. But hey, man, the wolves, you got to give it to Tim Connelly. We get into the go bare thing a little later in this episode. But like that trade has worked out and this team is just tough as shit. They they show up and they're down a guy. They're injured. Io's been injured. And here they are at 2 2 and could chalk it up to when be getting himself thrown out of the game. But they were at they were winning the game when that happened. And they they hung on to win the game without him. And like you can only play the guys there in front of you. And here they are. Like after a weird up and down season and oh my god, his fans are wondering if Chris Finches, they're a coach and this mix of players and by here, they are 2 2 in the conference. So I finals again. It's amazing, Zach. Like it's a maddening thing because they're really individually talented. But it just seems like unless their shoulder blades are scraping a grant against the brick wall behind them, they don't really bring everything possible. And even last game, like they, you know, they I do think they relax just a little bit or breathe the sigh relief when when be left. And then they were still in a fight. And I just can't say enough about Anthony Edwards. He his knees are at maybe 60%. He can pick like four or five times a game where he really goes. I use I agree with you in that. I do think he is getting stronger as this as a series goes along. He's getting his win back. He's he's getting a little bit more energy. But he is operating at a level where he has to be crafty in a way that he never was before. Like it was all power. It was all athleticism. It was all overwhelming. Now he is thinking the game. He is getting to his spots. He is just willing this team forward. And it's it's just great theater to watch. You have Wembe on one side, you know, killing the wolves in game three. And then you have the wolf season on the line down eight in the fourth quarter. And it just erupts. And he cannot dunk on anyone right now. He cannot like just blow past everyone. But he can still find a way. And that's pretty amazing stuff to watch. Yeah, he had it was in game three. He had a post move where he spun baseline on Julian Champagne, I think. And he he roasted him like he spun real fast. And he went up to finish. Maybe it wasn't Champagne. Maybe Champagne met him at the rim. It was another wing that met him at the rim. And it was a below the rim finish. And healthy. And the Edwards is either dunking that or drawing a foul trying to dunk it. And he just doesn't have that kind of explosiveness right now. But he gutted it out last night. 13 of 22. How many did you have in the fourth quarter? Like 16. Four. Yep. 16 in the fourth. All every kind of shot imaginable. Just the guy is a gamer. And by the way, do we know this off stop my head, I can't remember. Was there like an event where then is this just wear and tear on his knees? Was there an event that like there was the the thing that looked like a hybrid extension? And was that the last round? Yeah, I was game four against Denver. Yeah. So he was already playing with like inflammation in his in his right knee. That was the death. And and and to sum of what Steph Curry was dealing with. And then that was a left knee against Denver. And then the left knee against Denver where he landed on it and it looked like there were people who told me like I thought it was Sean Livingston all over again. Like and so they just dodged a major major bullet and he is Wolverine like he's he heals faster than anyone you've ever seen before. And but like even like last night talking to a couple of players in the locker room after the game, even you know, kind of off the record. And they're just like I can't believe what he's doing right now. Like did you just like we you see what he's putting his body through? You see like how he's feeling on the off days. And that dude is just going out there. And that's why Nasrida's getting up after taking the elbow from hell. That's why I always playing through a calf even though he's a free agent at the end of this this season. Like Ant is setting that example and walking the walk and talking the talk. It's pretty incredible. Any parting thoughts on this series in game five coming up before we let you go. Here's what I'll say like one thing that if you want to be a wolves optimist in this. It's I do think that I what I see in Wemba Niyama is definitely what I saw in Anthony Edwards at 21 22 years old in that he gets a sense of he has a taste for the jugular. But sometimes he goes a little too far with it. He wants it too badly. And you'll see Wemba take a contested three like in a moment or a heat check kind of turnaround. And that opens the door going the other way a little bit. And Ant did the same thing like all the time. You can always tell up this one's going up for three. A step back three is coming because he senses that moment. And I think in game one when be sort of punched himself out early because he wanted to just absolutely dominate the game. And he didn't have quite enough gas in the fourth quarter. I wonder if coming in to game five. He is going to be so motivated to a tone for what happened in game four. That maybe is almost too amped up. That's really the only hope that the wolves have because if he's locked in and just ready to play. I mean, he's an absolute monster that I don't know that anyone can do anything with. And so if he's under control, it's hard to see the wolves figuring away out of this. If he is just sort of caught up in the emotion of it and wanting to deliver a statement and is a little too wild, then maybe that that that kind of opens the door for the wolves to make a move and steal this thing. Yeah, he was much more calculated in games two and three. And part of that is just like I mentioned this on the last episode. I think he had a he had a pick and roll where the wolves switched in game three and put Jada McDaniels on him. And he just rolled Jada McDaniels into the post, sealed him, got the ball. And I can't remember if he scored or drew a foul or both. But I that was just sheer like, I want to do this. I'm doing this. I'm not going to do the other things that you want me to do and shoot threes. And he caught a bunch of logs and all that. So we shall see if he plays how he plays, but the wolves in the playoffs, it's always a good time. And John Krasinski is always there to document it for us. Thanks for your time, bud. I know you're busy. And now it's time to talk lottery with Jonathan Gaboni. Thanks, Zach. This is that close show is brought to you by Fandall. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game. It's a night is your shot to boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So in the moment hits your win hits bigger. And Fandall is giving you better payouts on seeing game parlays all NBA playoffs on lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs pay off with Fandall official sports betting partner of the NBA had to fandall.com slash low to get started. Fandall play your game 21 or over and select states are 18 and over in DC can talk airwelming opt in required bonus issued is now a drawable profit boost tokens gambling problem called 1-800 gambler call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Mikalobe Ultra. The playoffs are almost here. My favorite thing about the NBA playoffs, the intensity and the strategy every game is treated like a must win game. Even when the team is up 3-0 every quarter every half has a new adjustment that you got to really be dialed in to track. Oh, that guy's guarding that guy now. Why are they doing that? How is the other team going to counter that it's the chess match that we don't really see quite as much of a regular season. It's dialed up from the opening tip of game one in the playoffs. playoffs are just awesome in the NBA. You know what else is just as great opening up a new bottle It's refreshing light with only nine. The $25 calories plus is the official beer partner of the NBA. They're giving fans a chance to win court side tickets, unique prizes and more. Michael O'Boltra superior is worth playing for. Enter now at mickleoBoltra.com/courtside. Mickle O'Boltra Courtside 25-26, no purchase necessary, open U.S. residents 21 plus, begins on October 1st, 2025, and ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods see official rules at mickleoBoltra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, everybody knows yesterday was one of my favorite days on the NBA calendar. The NBA lottery, the last hurrah of this kind of lottery, probably assuming the NBA gets its way and passes a whole new lottery system. Not quite as dramatic as years like last year when there was a Dallas Maverick. Like, whoa, what are you fucking kidding me kind of reaction to Cooper flag going to the maps and all that. There were some fun moments, some fun anecdotes and a large sigh of relief from inside the drawing room when I was going around asking people, who do you think is the biggest winner tonight? I pulled everyone outside and the big studio thing once we were released from the sequestered secret room. Who do you think is the biggest winner? I have my own opinion. The universal answer was something to the effect of we're all winners because Oklahoma City did not move up in the draft otherwise we'd all be losers. Look who's here to help me analyze up my fellow ESPN expat, Mr. Jonathan Gavoni, all things draft my man. How are you? I'm doing great man. How are you? I'm hanging in there. You were not in the secret room with us last night, right? I've never done the secret room once and this is actually the first time I skipped the lottery all together. They moved it to Navy Pier and I said, man, I need to get my fix of the Julie Combine scrimmages. I'm worried. I'm not going to get back in time. I watched it on TV and I watched the Julie Combine. That's sad. First of all, second of all, we had the, but it's on brand. You have to do it. It is on brand. We had a sort of last hurrah for the tankers last night, for in some cases, Sacramento and Brooklyn. I just want to send my condolences to all of your fans. It's just, it's a rough go for you guys in the lottery. But Washington egregiously tanks, they get the number one pick. Utah egregiously tanks. They get the number two pick and then two sort of middle ground tankers, a different species of tanker that grizzlies in the bulls move up to three and four. And the irony of this is, yeah, I think we're like in year eight of the revised semi flattened lottery odds in every time there would be a wild jump in this new system. Like the Hawks had a three percent chance of getting Reese's Shay and they'd moved all the way up. Cooper flag, obviously Dallas had like a one point something percent chance. They move all the way up. We've seen teams with the very worst records pick fifth, you know, multiple times. There was this immediate outcry of like, what have we wrought? We have benefited. It's so hard now for the worst teams are getting punished and these mediocre teams are getting moved up and just like, what have we done? It was so dumb and it was so reactive because what happened was a, exactly the system that you had legislated in working as expected. And B, this lottery last night was a reminder that if you were just a little bit less react active and let this system play out for 20, 30, 40 years, like an actual sample size, more often than not, we would get results like last night where the worst teams would do best in the lottery like Washington, Utah with some, you know, random movement here and there. It was like last night was a representative kind of lottery of this system that everybody wanted because of the process and the egregious tanking, right? And they vote for it. And then some wild stuff happens and everyone's like, oh my god, what have we done? And now, all these years later, we're getting a system that's probably going to even be more random than this with like wildly flatter odds, 321, a relegation zone and all that. So I just find it ironic that in the last year of this system, it works to reward the worst teams. Just a, just a, it's just crazy how reactive everybody is and by the way, if the NBA passes this new system, this 321 system and wild outcomes happen in the first year, there's going to be the same like, oh my god, what have we done? You did exactly this. This is what you did. But who was your biggest winner of the night other than 29 teams because Oklahoma City did not move up? It has to be the clippers. I mean, the trade was insane when it happened and it's even more insane now, even though it was a coin flip, whether it was going to go Indiana's way or the clippers way, 52, 48. And it's such a ball as they move on both sides and you can't help but feel for the Pacers, especially their fans, you know, going through the season that they did. And but I mean, I understand like the strategy behind it because, you know, what's probably getting into this more, there is absolutely a drop off after four. And so the Pacers probably said to themselves, you know, if we dropped to five, six, whatever, you know, we'd rather have a starting center locked in for $20 million a year in even to the Zubats. That's our preference. But just as she had play out, the way that it did, the drama, I mean, that's like you said, I mean, the lottery is the best day of the calendar and you bring all these, you know, NBA executives. They're all millionaires. They're, you know, they've done accomplished so much in their career. They're so powerful. They've, you know, they reached the top of the mountain to get to this point and they're sitting in that room and they're so vulnerable and they're literally their entire career in many ways hinges on which way this will go. I mean, the San Antonio Spurs will be the first ones I'm sure to tell you. I mean, like they don't get Victor, you know, what is, what is their, what does it look like? Now all of a sudden, you know, they're all geniuses and they're, you know, they're so smart and just one player changes the trajectory of your franchise in the NBA. And so that's why, I mean, the lottery is insane. Every year, it just blows my mind and I'm just reekers to see how it plays out next year because it's going to be even crazier or trying to understand all the revifications of what they're trying to pass. And, you know, the NBA is, it's, it's absolutely insane from top to bottom, but the lottery is at the top. So it, you just nailed why it's my favorite thing. The absurdest nature of it, watching these genius highly accomplished people, top of their fields, just sit there and sweat and fret over a, literally like an 80s newscast. Like here, let's bring on the meteorologist to pull out the tonight's lottery balls. So and next year, by the way, we don't exactly know how it's going to be. But the proposal is this three to one system where instead of these, like, you know, now you get these four ping pong, there's 14 ping pong balls numbered one to 14. And teams are assigned four number combinations of those ping pong balls. There's a thousand combinations. And so like two, three, four, one, eight, whatever that belongs to the wizards and the wizards come up. Next year, there's only going to be like, there's going to be I think 37 balls and they're just going to be like team balls, like it's just going to have logos like the teams at the top of the lottery get three balls, the relegation zone teams and some other teams get to the best, the best teams, quote unquote, get one. And they don't exactly know how they're going to do it next year. A couple of rumblings I heard yesterday was they have definitely taken note of the NHL making like a really good television show out of the lottery drawing, like with the odds in real time on a big screen. And the sphere. Yeah, I guess it was at the sphere. I don't know. And they've definitely made note of that. And there's there's a world in which, you know, the plan is the proposal is to draw all 16 spots. And there's a world in which they actually draw from 16 to one in reverse order. And the way that would work is process of elimination. One way it could work is process of elimination. So if you're one of the teams that has three balls and your ball comes up for the 16th pick, that doesn't mean you get the 16th pick. That means you have two balls left in the kitty. They draw again for the 16th pick. And the first team that has like one, that's their last ball. They get the 16th pick and you go from there. So it would be this kind of thrilling like, oh my god, we have one ball left that ball, stay in there ball. We don't want you to come out. And anyway, we'll see what happens next year. You are correct that the clippers are indisputably, I think, the biggest, other than the wizards, I guess, the clippers to come out with the highest possible pick that they could have gotten five. And you can tell me about, you know, how big the cliff is after four. And the double win of not being embarrassed by having Oklahoma City move up with their pick. I was sitting behind Resab Desi, who was the, the clippers representative in the drawing room. And he was really right behind him, his back, his back was right in front of me. And the sigh of relief, like it was, it was so visible like his shoulders went like, whoa, when the Chicago pick came up. And then the lottery's over. And so he stands up and he turns around. And he has this look on his face like, he looked like someone who had been like acquitted at trial facing life in prison, just like he had a new lease on life. And then he went over and he had a nice handshake, bro hug with Ted Wu, the Pacer's guy. And I was like, oh, that's such a nice moment of NBA harmony. You guys aren't fighting. You guys aren't mad at each other. But an unbelievable win for them. And a new lease on life, I guess, for the clippers assuming they get to keep that pick. Did you see the clippers tweet updating the terms of the trade with the Pacers? I did. Yeah. I just a reason five billion why the NBA is the craziest league in the world is like, I'm just going to just say this. Every time I see the clippers tweet, I just think back to when everyone was digging up the old- Tweet's nine months ago like yeah, if there's a year to maybe just not take the victory lap at the Pacers expense and like highlight in red that you're getting the number five thick Maybe just maybe just take the win and don't and don't rub it in but we also have to discuss Kevin Pritchard's tweet apologizing to Pacers fans I thought that was like insane. I could not believe that he tweeted that Saying that he thought that he didn't think it would come up five like dude. You made the Surprise yeah, you made the trade and it's like a justifiable trade of each of Zubat's was a borderline all NBA player two seasons ago He's on a great contract the bucks splurged on Miles Turner at a number that you frankly couldn't justify and so you had to pivot Somehow and yeah, you you did so hoping to tank this season and have your cake You needed to and you didn't get the cake but to sit there and tweet like man I'm just surprised. I thought it would go the other way. You knew exactly what it was it was 5248 You would get to pick and 48 came up you can't be like the lottery just makes people insane like it just makes people absolutely insane like last year I remember people telling me They like Ryan Smith was I mean, I don't want to say distraught like he wasn't crying I think he was more like angry that the jazz had not gotten the number one pick it and move down It's like dude the most likely outcome just happened and you're like raging at the basketball guys It just makes people insane. I couldn't believe it was more it was more Dallas and everybody's saying it's rigged and all and all that I think is what it was maybe but I couldn't believe that that tweet and look the Pacers like shit happens now They keep their 2031 pick which would have been unprotected to the Clippers had had they kept this pick which makes it easier for them to make trades Zeus good. You just got to go build your team. You don't have a ton of flexibility, but you have some like you can get probably one more player with the mini mid-level exception or something like that. I just thought that was That was a crazy moment. Did you see this stuff about the suit that were sob from the Clippers war to To the drawing room I did not see that I actually was walking by the peninsula yesterday and they just happened to Drive up the whole clipboard staff and they were like our guy got it done. How about a sub and he's like, yeah, I did it guys He executed that's what I said you executed it in there. You got the job done So he was wearing a suit that they did the Clippers would like revere Jerry West Everybody that worked there reveres him. So he was wearing a suit that Jerry West had had when when he saw Resob was younger but went up to him This is what Resob told me and said I can't have you looking like shit at NBA games I'm gonna have my tailor make some suits for you and this was the first one including the tie that the tailor had made took the The tailor came I think the Clippers headquarters took the measurements made the suit and then Jerry West had the tailor make Resob's wedding suit and when the wedding suit was delivered there was a surprise second suit And so this is what he wore as a good luck charm to the thing. So that's just fun Lottery Lottery stuff. Um, okay, let's start with the results Wizards number one pick they have Anthony Davis and Trayoung are on the team They have a whole pile of young players who are now going to have incredible competition This is your world the consensus seems to be DeBanza is the safest choice in the most likely choice at number one The wizards the scuttle butt was last night was are legitimately like we haven't decided yet We're gonna take a look at it. Um, what do you think happens here? I have Darren Peterson going one and I was a little bit surprised You know how is it the consensus has shifted? I mean, I know that Darren Peterson didn't have the season that he wanted But I've seen those guys on the same floor in person probably eight to ten times Playing against each other You know in a lot of different settings over the years dating back to the under 16, you know, USA basketball training camp And not once did I come away thinking Asia DeBanza is a better prospect than Darren Peterson Including when they played each other this year Which is you know Darren Peterson had an absolutely insane First half. I mean, it was one of his best performances and and the bonds that had you know a kind of a DeBanza game Where a lot of dribbles a lot of tough shots made some tough shots, you know incredible intensity and you know will and aggressiveness and the scoring instincts and Ancient DeBanza is a great prospect and I I have a pretty good feeling that he's going to be an all-star Darren Peterson is on another level talent wise And I don't know if you know people's Watched no, I think once they go back and go through the filming they played each other Three times last year and Darren Peterson was head and shoulders better than Asia DeBanza every single time now You know the creativity and stuff and the cramping and you know Darren Peterson did not have the same Gear that we saw in high school. We didn't have the same twitch. It wasn't quite as explosive blowing by people getting to the rim finishing They moved them off the ball Strangely he was playing next to an open council who is you know, we've kind of seen him now in the NBA Come as a jeelie combined sportsman moment counsel is a very average player I think that we're gonna look back in five years and wonder how the hell did Darren Peterson not you know Have the year. I mean, I get it physically all that. He wasn't there Darren Peterson is an all-ambient player. He's an incredible talent And I don't care you have trea young whatever like you I think you take the talent in this in this draft and Darren Peterson is the talent. I think he he's he should go number one I don't know what they're going to do. I haven't spoken with them whatever But you know knowing will Dawkins and you know, they're gonna they're gonna like you said they're gonna look at this really hard and Maybe they do go to bondsage just because he's safer. He had you know such a great year. He's an all-american all of that I would absolutely go with Darren Peterson. Well, what makes that interesting is that of course you taught Eating like the $500,000 fines and just what they're like. Oh, fine us more. We're that we get the number two pick in the draft Obviously, they know DeBanza very well He went to BYU Ryan Smith is a big booster BYU. He was in high school. I think for a lead Utah prop Yeah, he was for at least a year and so there was this immediate like oh my god Would the jazz make like a godfather offer to the wizards to move up one spot in the draft and guarantee that DeBanza is there My very early sense from talking to people around the league last night all over the league was like I don't think Utah is gonna operate like that I don't think they're gonna be reckless just to get that guy in the door if he falls to them great If if they really want him and they're and they're getting just held hostage It's a tough decision. I my I mean, it's it's very early But they they did not seem to me like oh, we're desperate to go get this good not that they're gonna seem like that anyway But I think they're just going to be happy to take who's ever there the other thing with Utah is Carlos Booser works for the jazz in the front office and camp Booser is going to be in conversation for you know A top three top four pick. That's another fun little variable But I get the sense that like look obviously both of these teams will listen to everything that comes to them Including you know, there was like I just randomly like Utah obviously made a big win now move last season or win semi later move I guess by trading for jaren jaxon jr. Can't day George is like a rising Perhaps all-star guard market and is an all-star. They got to figure out Walker Kessler. They want to reassign him for sure You could make the argument that Utah is a strong trade down trade down a little bit in the lottery get another better in player in the door Because I do think they want to get one more Decent rotation guy They could just get that with the mid-level Instead of doing any trade down kind of stuff My guess is they just stick it to and pick who's over there and are thrilled with it. But what do you think? Yeah, I can't see anybody trading out of the top three I can I think the trades on the top 10 are gonna be unlikely to happen unless it's like jockeying moving down two spots from seven to five something like you know, but I I think we would be doing the service by not mentioning the fact that camp Booser is every bit a number one Pit candidate and there are a lot of people around the NBA especially You know those that build the the team of draft models that have camp Booser number one He I mean has been the most productive player by far Every step of the way he's been the winning this player every step of the way What he does is going to translate to the NBA? I think he's gonna be an all-star and so there are a lot of teams that There are a lot of not teams I would say NBA executives that I really respect then have camp Booser and number one on their draft board And I would expect the wizards to give camp Booser a really hard look as well as it not a jazz I mean, they're so stacked with bigs like you said, but you don't draft for need when you're drafting too You don't know when an opportunity like that is gonna come around And next year's draft in the year after is not looking good whatsoever So you you go for the talent and they're impetus them and and as you debons our talents But camp Booser is a heck of an NBA prospect and he's I mean he's he'd be my favorite to be working in the year next year Then we get to Memphis Who moves up to number three And sort of the immediate scuttle butt questions gossip was what does this mean for John Morant? Does this make them more likely less likely? They get a great prospect in the door new lottery odds coming that don't really make it profitable to be terrible In fact make it unprofitable to be terrible to be one of the three worst teams and get relegated Would they just sort of keep him around and try to have some fun? and be frisky, I think it actually probably doesn't change their course at all. I think they're still likely to trade John Morant. If anything, I think it may make them more likely to trade John Morant because you look at a team like Sacramento who plummets all the way to seventh, doesn't want to be in that relegation zone next year. Brooklyn, I don't really see the fit, but Brooklyn's an interesting case we'll talk about. I think they're actually going to are slightly more likely to trade John Morant and I sense like some optimism that it won't be like an awful value trade for them. Chicago moves up to four, huge win for the Bulls who are bracing for a big, big summer under Bryson Graham as the new GM. And just hovering over all of this top four discussion and you have said to me already, you don't think anyone should trade out of the top four. We'll trade out of the top four. It's so good. But there is this last week on Bill's pod, he sort of posited this like at some point Oklahoma City who I think is 12th in this draft is going to have to consolidate players and picks because they just have too many players who are going to get too expensive and too many picks. They can't even roster all their picks. Would this be the year with this kind of top four where Oklahoma City just goes to the Bulls or the Grizzlies and says AJ Mitchell plus rotation player X plus number 12 plus three future first round picks to get into the top four. And one GM told me last night talking about this like there is a point at which you just can't say no where they just put so much in the kitty that you have to consider saying yes. I have no idea what Oklahoma City is going to do. I haven't talked to anybody there about their plans. They are notoriously tight lipped about it. But I will say teams toward the top of the draft are expecting those kind of calls whether they come or not. What do you think will and should happen there? Yeah, I mean, they need to consolidate. I mean, they have so many picks coming down the pipeline. Like I said, the next two drafts are not considered to be very strong, especially at the top. That's that's that's key, right? The future picks like the people who are looking at the 2028 draft, 2029 draft, like this is what you have to be looking at when you make a decision like this. 100%. And so, I mean, this is a really bad high school class that's, you know, coming to be freshman now. And a lot of players, you know, there's not a whole lot. And then the five for five rule is coming in in the NCAA. So a lot of these players are going to get an extra year of eligibility. So the guys that you thought were going to be seniors next year actually can say now two more years. And so what is next year's draft even going to look like? It's a major question mark in terms and that there's not a great crop of international players too. So if you're Oklahoma City, you're probably looking at all that. You're saying, you know, yeah, let's consolidate. Let's just put a boatload of picks and move up. And, you know, I mean, AJ Mitchell is such a great contract that, you know, maybe you trade one of the bigger deals, you know, like instead because you want to think about the cap and the tax and all that. And so when everybody knows that at the same time. And so, I just think it's hard to do deals. I mean, it's just the fans. I mean, they get attached to top five ownership in the front office. You fall in love with the with the pick and the idea of what this player can become. And nobody wants to hear about, you know, the 2028 first rounder right now. I like if you just went through a season of misery as a fan of, you know, the Utah Jazz or whatever. And I mean, you know, they're trying to they're trying to win. I mean, they want to get out of this purgatory at some point. And so yeah, I think it's just going to be it's going to be hard. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, they have other levers to pull, right? Like they have the dork contract. They have the heart and steam contract. But like, heart and steam in particular feels pretty essential to their team right now. His offensive rebounding is passing the floater that feels automatic again. Dork, you know, he's the biggest and stoutest of their just army of defensive players. Like the best guy on the brunt that they have, although Caruso has looked pretty good on him. And he's as you mentioned, like a hometown beloved sort of homegrown favorite in Oklahoma City. Also, there's 7-0 in the playoffs and just pancing everybody left and right in all these games. Like every one of the Lakers games is exactly the same. It's close and then it's a 25 point game. You're like, what the fuck just happened? And by the way, I just isn't a side. I just I hate this burgeoning thing that's happening where in a couple of playoff games, including game two when SGA was in foul trouble. And they win the non SGA minutes. And again, play pretty well with SGA on the bench and a game three blowout in Isaiah Joe goes crazy. AJ Mitchell has a star kind of game. Chet looks great. It becomes a referendum on like SGA's MVP case. Like, well, the team was so good around him that why did we all get this wrong? First of all, it's like, it's two games. I think that's a pretty banal argument. And the 82 game sample size, which is what actually applies here of, you know, all these guys missed lots of games, including Jalen Williams missed lots of games. And the numbers just like they just didn't have a good offense with SGA on the floor. And they were a regular team with SGA off the floor and a crazy elite team with SGA on the floor. I just think it's a little crazy that this becomes an MVP referendum. But that's neither here, neither here nor there a Chicago. I'm really excited for the bulls. I'm a little worried that their fans are getting too excited and are setting themselves up for disappointment again, because we've seen the bulls like roll over the front office once or twice and it hasn't changed anything. But just home run outcome for them moving up to four. They were ecstatic last night. If I were them, I'm just keeping the pick, getting another great young player in the door. Do you have Caleb Wilson penciled in there? Is that the guy? I do. Yeah, 100% Caleb Wilson is a Bryson Graham type of guy. Size length, athleticism, defensive versatility. I mean, he's he had a phenomenal season at North Carolina up until getting injuries, getting better and better. And so super high character. I mean, Caleb Wilson is an easy guy to pencil. I mean, he has fans in the top three also. For sure. There are people who like Caleb Wilson quite a bit. And so we talk about it with three player draft, but Caleb Wilson is a hell of a consolation prize at four. If that's where he ends up, I mean, who knows? I mean, Memphis. There's always a shock that a shocker that happens on draft night. And if Caleb Wilson goes three or one, I wouldn't blow my mind. And so there are people who really, really like Caleb Wilson out there. He could be like a Washington Ted guy. So maybe there is some jockeying that happens at the top and somebody slides down the spot. I could see maybe that kind of movement happening just to position yourself and you know, get an extra pick or whatever. And so yeah, I mean, Caleb Wilson is big time. Do you think Peyton Watson is a Bryson Graham type of player because that's it. You know, Peyton Watson, who I think the Nuggets really want to retain, they'll have to do some financial gymnastics and get off a contract to do it. Unless the cronkeys want to do the unthinkable and pay a big luxury tax bill again. He's been linked to the Lakers more than anyone. The Lakers have like quietly kind of a lot of decisions to make with Reeves, Hatchamura just hasn't missed a shot. It feels like in a month, he's a free agent. LeBron, obviously like it can get pretty expensive. They're pretty fast. It's not like they have guaranteed $30 million of cap money to throw at Peyton Watson. But Chicago is another with a ton of cap room. It's another name I've heard for Peyton Watson. I think he'd be a great fit there personally. Like just like they already have kind of a lead ballhand learned giddy who you don't want to hand the entire offense to. So Peyton Watson can do some of the stuff he showed when Yokech and Half the Nuggets were hurt and he went crazy. Defense, they need tenacity, defense, all that. I kind of like that idea for them. I like it too. I'm curious to see like how much of a Matas Buzelis guy is Bryson Graham. You know, like do you go in all in on building around him? I mean, there's, you know, there's a wide scope of opinions about Matas. I mean, he's, I think he's had already promising first few years here in the NBA. But, you know, as you're ready to take that next step. And, you know, that's, that's going to be interesting to see like how do they, how do they look at him? We should talk more about the Wizards. What a night for the Wizards. I haven't yet listened to Joe House going bananas on Bill's podcast last night. I saw a clip of it. It was delightful. John Wall just clutch performance on the dayus. Not totally nonchalant reaction to it at the end. But they've got like, you know, obviously Davis and young, but it's a big year now for like, is Bub Carrington going to be anything for them? Is, is Bill Alcullibale what kind of player is he going to be? I like Will Riley. I had him off and on my second team, Al Rookie. They have a lot of interesting pieces there. They're, they're, they're high on Kishon George is really good. He should, he, he has ascended past like Cullibale is sort of part of like the rotational core. And Sar is good. I hated the way Sar played the tanky part of the season. I thought they'd just let him do whatever he wanted. And I didn't like watching it. But I think he's pretty good. But the whole thing was they have a bunch of young guys and they haven't found the guy yet. And now they have a chance to get the guy. I mean, this is like the biggest thing that's happened to Washington Wizards basketball. I think this is bigger than the wall lottery win in terms of just based on what they already have there. Like there's actually a road map for this team to be interesting. And all it took was a couple of years of unabashed tanking in one big year of lottery look. Yeah, you'd love to see a plan work out. You know, if you're their fans and you know, they're, they're on their way now. Like there's a clear direction here. And they've got some great young pieces like you said they have to multi-time old stars that I'm not sure what the future holds for them, but it makes sense to what they did with buying low as low as possible as you could get on noise too. Do you rehab them now and get back on the right path and then move them again for they got them for so little. It's unbelievable how little they have to give up to get those two guys considering the resumes. And so, yeah, I mean, they're pretty stacked and I mean, whether it's De Bonza or Peterson, I mean, both of those guys are super exciting and so, yeah, it's a good time to be watching Wizards from. A couple of other notes. I don't really see much impact on like the potential Yannis and/or less likely Jalen Brown trade landscape from last night like no one moved up or moved down like Atlanta, stuck at eight, Miami stuck at 13. No golden chip trade piece from a Yannis team really emerged. I do think it's much more likely that not that Yannis gets traded in the offseason who knows. That's just my opinion based on what I've heard. The Jalen Brown thing, I don't know. I think the Celtics will listen, no one that like people around the league don't really know what's going to happen there, but I don't, did you see anything sort of like impacting the very top of the top of the conversation? If Atlanta had moved up to the top four with the Pelican's pick, I think it would have actually, if I'm on C-CLA at their GM, it makes me less likely to trade for Yannis because I just want, okay, now I'm just building up with this young core. I get a gem in the draft, picking at eight, I just don't think it's going to be enticing enough from Milwaukee. I don't think Atlanta wants to do it anyway. So I think we're just going to be looking at the usual suspects, I guess. I mean, I live in New York City, so right away my thoughts went to Brooklyn and them dropping for a second time now, and what is the direction there? Is there pressure on the front office to try and win now? But do they have the pieces for it now? What are they going to do with Michael Porter Jr.? What do they do with all these point guards that they drafted last year? Because when you're sitting at six, I mean, you're looking at a bunch of little guards, really. You're looking at a cough, you're looking at Kingston Flemmings, you're looking to Keaton Wagler, you're looking at Michele Brown, or do you go and take Nate-A-Met, who is 6-10-wing, incredible upside, he's fluid, and he can make shots from all over the floor, but it's going to take him some time, you know, strength wise and all that, but do they have time? And so I think a lot of those teams in that five-to-ten range, that's where it's going to be really interesting to see how it plays out, does one of them go reach for Yacht-A-Lendibor, you know, who is, you know, he's older than some guys that played in their freaking All-Star game. But he was also the second best player in college basketball after Kim Booser, and so how do you view him, you know, and it's, I mean, this is where I kind of disagree with people who say it's a historic draft, and the depth of the draft, and all that, and I'm not seeing that, to be honest with you, I mean, after five, I think it's quite a normal draft. And after like, you know, 18, I mean, it could drop off a cliff if, I mean, there are like 10 guys, and you know, like in that 18-32 range, you could pull their name out of the draft and go back to school, and then you're looking at guys who are like in our 40s, who might have to pick them the 20s, and N-I-L has really done a number on the NBA draft year of the last two years, and a lot of people are talking about like, how do we compete, you know, like with this, he used to be like, the value was in the first round, and the late first, you hit on a guy, and he's in your rotation, and it's a cheap contract, it's a great asset, it's how you dodge the tax and maneuver yourself, but now it's like, well, if there's not a player there in the 20s, and how do you actually even view all these picks? All these teams have been porting these picks for years and years and years, and you know, people raked, you know, Tim Conley over the coast for, you know, for trading all these picks in the 20s for Fareda Goldberg, and now he looks like a genius, honestly. I'm glad you brought that up because I've been meaning to mention this. The Goldberg trade worked, like I thought it was an overpay, I was astonished at how many picks it took to get him. I think the jazz were, frankly, astonished at how many picks they got in return for him. It's indisputably worked. Like, I think everybody who's Tim Conley and Rudy go bare an apology, that trade worked, and we'll see what happens in the. This is where you want to be right now, is, you know, competing for a spot in the Western Conference Finals, they made it, you know, like two years in a row, I mean, this is what we should be rewarding, you know, like as an NBA media, NBA fans, like, this guy went for it, you know, like, how about trying to win? Well, you know, how about that? To your point, to your point, here's what I don't want to have happened next year. So this lottery unfolds in a way that's pretty friendly to the tank teams, right, overall, and you mentioned the net, so I want to get back to the net in a second, is a team that, a tank team that did not have a friendly outcome last night. And so, tanking was largely rewarded for one final time under a system that, again, if you let it play out for 30, 40 years, would more or less reward the worst teams, more than the mediocre teams over, over time. People didn't want to give it years, they reacted viscerally to outcomes that seemed unfair to the worst teams, and you already are seeing this sort of like, as we, as the NBA proposes this new, like, flatter, more random lottery system, the same kind of pushback that happened when they first tried to flatten the lottery odds to this system, which is, well, isn't the draft supposed to help the worst teams? Isn't the draft supposed to represent hope for fan bases of bad teams? It's a rebuilding tool. Is it more, is it more helpful for small markets who don't get free agents and free agency doesn't exist anymore? You're already seeing that. And so, here's what I'm going to say. Next year, if they pass this, the lottery will be more random and less friendly to the worst teams. When that happens, I don't want to hear any whining from any of the teams that vote for this about how, oh, my God, what have we done? Someone with the 12th best record just got the number one pick of the draft and the worst teams are picking here. It's exactly what you're voting on. You can't, in the same breath, say, tanking is this egregious scourge on the league that ruins a third of the season for a third of the teams. But also, oh, my God, we're appalled that a mid-of-40 win team got the number one pick. You have to accept some cost to eliminate some problem. There's not going to be a perfect solution. And I think the NBA has reached a moment where tanking got so bad. Now, maybe you're right that the next drafts are not so great that tanking would ever get like this, but that tanking got so bad that it became a bigger and more dire problem than a more randomized draft order, which, by the way, will still in the aggregate favor bad teams over good teams. It's not like you're giving the NBA champion an equal chance at the first pick or anything like that. But there is going to be more randomness. And I just don't want to see this sort of reactiveness from the NBA team community. If like, oh, my God, what happened? Orlando got the number one pick. That's going to happen. There's also a lot of frozen balls, jokes already going around the lot of room. How next year? Because the balls are team by team. They're going to have logos on. They're going to look nice. They're going to be a frozen ball. But that's what's going to happen. And I think, I don't know how you feel. It is. The draft is designed to help bad teams get better, to help them get a roadmap out of purgatory. I think the NBA is right at this moment to say, let's just see what a league looks like where we chip away at that a little bit and see what the benefits are on the other end in terms of competition. Will some teams have a harder time digging out of holes? Maybe. We've already seen teams not able to dig out of holes, even in this lottery system and the one that came before it because of mismanagement, bad decisions, bad luck in the lottery, etc. So we'll see what happens. But I think it's time to try something different. I think so too. I just think they're thinking about the product and if you look at a third of the league, actively trying to lose, shutting down players, it really hurts the product for half a season. And they're thinking about the next TV deal. And they're thinking about all this competition all over, from esports and the NFL and social media. And what are our kids even going to be watching when the next TV deal is up? And so from that standpoint, I understand because I've taken my kids to games in March, in April. And it's a bad product. They fall asleep watching it and the games are too long. There's too many games. And I think that you look at college basketball. It's honestly catching up in terms of the level of play. So many guys are staying, the games are so competitive, and you watch your early games. That's a great product. And so they have to figure out a way how to make the product. Another playoffs are unbelievable. I watch every game and I'm just like I'm mesmerized by the level of talent and skill and physicality and intensity. It's incredible. And so I think that is the concern and I understand it because like who wants to watch these games, you know, like Washington against Brooklyn in March and April like it's awful. Who wants to buy a ticket for that? And so that's what they needed to try something because it this year was really, really. Well, and also like, first of all, the Washington Brooklyn kind of games are now going to be actually competitive because those teams are going to be fighting to get out of the relegation zone. The other bad teams are going to be fighting to keep those bad teams in the relegation zone. So everyone has inst- there's incentives to win. Not just incentives, not to lose. I don't think it's going to be a perfect system. People are worried about, oh, our team's going to tank out of the play-in to get into the lottery and have a better shot than a ball and pick. I mean, I'll believe that when I see it. Me, to me, that's a- that's an observational cost worth having. Let's see what happens when competency is more rewarded than it is now. And also, there are ways if this does actually chip away at a team's ability to dig out of a hole. There are ways to like alter other parts of the system. I've mentioned this over and over again, like make cap room more valuable by eliminating restricted free agency by allowing teams to use it in different ways. So if you're a bad team and you have cap room and the lottery doesn't help you, you can go try to get younger free agents. You can roll over cap space from previous seasons. There's like a lot of things you can do. And this is not going to be a permanent solution. It's going to be tweaked and it's going to be tweaked. It's going to be tweaked. But I'm ready for- I'm ready to see how it operates. John, think of only you're the best. Where should we be following you right now? And we're going to have to have you back on. Is the draft approaches in six weeks, I guess? Yeah, I mean, I'm covering the draft pretty much exclusively on X and on Instagram and on Tiktok at Draft Express. I mean, that's my outlet. I mean, 95% of my time and energy is going to my private business, you know, with the clients, NBA, college, international. I've got six trips here planned in the next three months to Europe and Mexico and all over the place. And so it's been an awesome year and there is life. You know, after ESPN, as you're aware, and it's a great time to be a basketball fan. You're the best. You know, this draft and all drafts better than anybody. Thanks for letting us some expertise. We'll have you on again, and now let's welcome in. Fred Katz to talk about the New York Nicarbockers. Holy smokes. All right, let's wrap this up. Fred Katz is here. The New York Nicarbockers, the Knicks of New York City, of Eddie Curry and Isaiah Thomas and Zach Randolph and Chris Childs, the New York Knicks are in the conference finals again, after absolutely obliterating the Philadelphia 76ers in a sweep. The Knicks for the entire playoffs are now plus 20 per 100 possessions, plus 194 total points, A.K.A. about 20 a game. And I remember shortly before the playoffs, I think you might have been my guest. I was talking about the Knicks and how they were my favorite NBA mystery because they would get into a state. We've all had experiences like this, whether it's in sports, in writing, in just any part of life where you get into a zone where things just feel right. And you can't explain why they feel right. You can't explain how you got there, what changed. And then you lose it and you can't explain really why you lost it or what happened. And that was the experience of the Knicks for me. I compared it to when you when you have like a trivia answer on the tip of your tongue and you know it and you know it and you know it, but you can't quite get the final answer out there or a word or something like that. You're almost all the way there, but you can't quite get there. That's the Knicks would sometimes get there and then they would slip back and not get there. They're there now. This is a team that is whatever zone they need to get in. They have found it. They are in it. They are going to be favorites in the next round. I know they Detroit was three and oh against the Knicks and beat the hell out of them. Even with Detroit missing Jalen Dern for two games. Isaiah Stewart for a game. I don't know. They're going to be favorites next round. I think anyway, no matter who they play, they they're going to be favorites to make the finals and and accomplished James Dolan's mandate and Mike Brown's mandate. You know, you just hope that they're going to have a little bit of a layoff now that whatever whatever they've done, whatever a femoral thing that they found for edcats. They don't lose it because they've they found it now. I have some theories about what's changed, but I want to first of all, I want to put it ask you this was the atmosphere in Philadelphia for game four as insanely weird as it seemed on television. It was like nothing I have ever experienced to be honest. You know, it's it's one thing, you know, game game three was a lot of Knicks fans and the Knicks fans might have been louder, but I think it was because the Knicks were winning and it was probably about 50 50, but I did a lap around the concourse at halftime of game four. I think it was like 80 20 like it was just all Knicks fans and I'm sure there were a lot of sixers fans who saw them lose game three and fall down three oh and think I don't need to see this. I don't need to see this in person. I don't need to be there for whatever the heck is going to happen in game four and game four was like a terrible spot for the sixers to begin with. Even at the beginning of the series, I was like, look, we don't we can't tell the future. We don't know what's going to happen in a series, but the one thing I am incredibly confident in, it's that the sixers are going to lose game four because starting a playoff game 42 hours after you just ended the previous one is not a great recipe for success with that team with that shorter rotation and what you well and beat him. You mean you mean game one. Game four. So game four was a 330 start. Oh, I see three. Yes. And game three was a seven o'clock start two days before and I'm like, they're starting an afternoon game a day later. I'm like, this is not going to go well. Another down three. Oh, and it's just like, I think, I think people just punted on the tickets. They must have it. It was crazy. I've never I've seen nix fans fill up arenas and be loud and all that kind of stuff. But I've never seen it just be like all nix fans in a row to arena for a playoff game. I've never seen that. It was wild. The Josh Hart tweet after the game or okay, it was not a tweet. It was, I think it was, was it a comment he made or it was a comment? It was a comment. It was a comment where he said, I thought Philly was a sports town. Maybe it's not something like that. I mean, that is, that's kick and dirt. That's twisting in the knife, whatever metaphor you want to use. That's Josh Hart being very, very mean. But look, I mean, it was, it was crazy. It felt like a road game for the Sixers. At least that's how it seemed on TV. All right. So I'm going to, I'm going to do my best, my best theory is on like, why do the nix feel like they've found the vibe? Okay. Theory number one, McHale Bridges is back. And it's not just that he's scoring. It's that he's looking to score. So he like drove at Kelly Ubrei at the beginning of yesterday's game and like had a little pivity up and under a kind of layup. He drove at Joel and beat. And I can't remember if he drew a fallery kicked out to a corner three. He had Maxi on him in transition and he sealed deep in the paint and drew a foul, which is something he used to do in Phoenix quite a bit. He's hunting like relocation threes and cuts. And he had one transition basket where he actually flexed like skinny McHale Bridges gave you like a flex. And I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if he had to hit rock bottom in the Atlanta series to come out the other end. I don't know if the Villanova guys lifted him up and just said play. I don't know if Mike Brown saying, hey, I'm not going to bring you off the bench. I'm just going to keep starting you keep guarding Tyree's Maxi. Let your defense for your offense. But step one is there this is a completely different player than the player who started the playoffs against Atlanta. And thing number two is foul trouble aside. This is the Carl Anthony Towns that you want to see offensively. We know what he can do. It's not a shock that he's passing like this. Like he's he's always been a good passer, particularly when he stopped trying to be too tricky with it. The shooting is the shooting. I thought Mike Brown's game plan in this series was pretty flawless right from the jump and the centerpiece of it was if you're gifting us Joelle and bead on Carl Anthony Towns and you're going to be maybe too slow or too reluctant to put him anywhere else. We're just going to milk that for all its worth and we're going to make Joelle and beads life absolutely miserable and wear him down to the point that between that and the, you know, ankle and the inductor and all the stuff that happened at the beginning of the series that crippled him. He was just a shade of himself defensively and on the glass. But but it's not just that. It's and you wrote about this at the end of last season. All I want from cat defensively is a try. Check and be do the thing that you are supposed to do. So when these two players run a pick and roll, this is your job. You have to understand that it's your job because the other four players on the team are going to behave based on you doing that job. And if you do something else or you don't execute it, we're all going to fuck up because we're expecting you to do the thing. He's never going to be a great defensive player. I think he's actually been quite good in the playoffs, but he's doing that. Like whatever his job is, he's doing it and he's doing it well enough to me. We can boil it down to other things, but those are the two biggest changes is bridges and cat. I agree completely. Cat defensively has, I would say he's been like quite good defensively, not like good for cat, not good for his reputation. I just think he's been good defensively in on the offensive end. I don't know. You say you cat has always been a good passer. No question. But since game three, when they, a game four of the Atlanta series, when Mike Brown kind of went back and was like, you know what, we're going to change the way we run the offense and go back to a lot of the stuff that they were running in the early parts of the year with you wrote a great piece on this for the athletic, by the way, right after that game about all the flex cuts and the screening and the off-ball stuff that was just murdering the hawks. It killed them. It killed them. And, and they didn't run like that play with the flex screen. Like they, they didn't run that play. They ran at one time in early March against San Antonio. And maybe like a couple of times in January, but they, other than that, they threw that play in the garbage in November. And to me, I thought that, that sort of action was this sort of thing that it was representative of what they were trying to do early in the season and then got away from with not just involving cat. Everybody talks about cat's shot attempts, but it's really about cats involvement. It's not actually about the shot attempts. And they re-involved him in this sort of way, starting with game four over Atlanta, where cat is now all of a sudden in the pinch post, but not just that. Like he's facilitating from the low post. He's being involved in the low post. You said the low post sounds. I mean, he's facilitating from the Zach Lowe show. That's got, that's got a ring. That's got a ring to it. And what do I have heard that before the low post? It could be a podcast. I don't know. Table it. It actually can't be right now, Fred, but that's a different story. Well, it could be if you get that feed, probably somehow acquire that food. Let's move on, Fred. So cat, his involvement has been totally different. So since game four against Atlanta, his shots are actually way down. He's only taking double digit shots two times. It took 10 shots in one game. No, foul trouble. The endless foul trouble is is part of that, but not not, not maybe not even half of it, though. As, as are the blowouts, like he hasn't played in the bunch of fourth quarters. I mean, he's only playing 26 minutes of game during the stretch. But even so, you look, it's like six, seven, eight shots every night. But the touches are through the roof. So he averaged 83 touches per 100 possessions during the regular season. And against Philly, he averaged 103 per 100. Since game four of the Atlanta series, he's averaged 98 touches per 100. That's a significant jump. I mean, that's what you see from like lead ball handling point guard, who's like a, who's like, that's what you see from like, you know, kid cutting him, who's just like, give the ball to Kade and let him go at it. Cat has been on another level, I think, just in terms of getting them into their sets and facilitating from there. He hasn't had fewer than six assists in any game. He's ever been eight assists in those 26 minutes. He made some passes in game four, where I was like, we had 10 assists in 20 minutes. The touch past the Josh heart under the rim was was was was just a masterpiece. So unbelievable. And he had this other one, which didn't turn into a siss because I think it was McBride, Mr. Shot, who would have thought. But cat, cat drove left and had this unbelievable sort of spinning behind that. That's right. Over the head. Yeah, to the corner. And I was like, it was right on target. Like people talk so much about the vision that it takes to be able to do that kind of stuff. But his precision, like every passes into the shooting pocket, it's, he's looked like a quarterback in a lot of ways. He had one in the Atlanta series where he just took, he took an in bounds and it was a side, sideline at a bounds play. And he ends up taking the ball from the ref and Josh heart was in the corner 70 feet down the court and cat wound up like he was like, you know, throwing off his back foot after making a backhand play a third base. And through this 100 mile an hour bullet to heart who got a layup out of it. And it just showed what is known. He was in at that point because before that play, he went up to heart and was like, I'm going to make this pass. And Josh heart said to him, oh, no, don't do that. Like do not do not do that. That's not a good idea. And cats like I'm doing it anyway. And he went out and he did it. And it was, it was, I think the best pass he's made the whole playoff run. It was extraordinary with the, I mean, he just looked like he was throwing to a guy in an in route on like a set, you know, on this unbelievable tight window where he's threading the needle. He's, he's just been in such a groove in terms of his passing. And it's not just the schemes that Mike Brown shook up. There's something with his mentality, with his approach where I feel like he's almost caught something from himself where he's like, I'm going to keep this thing rolling and rolling and rolling. Well, he's every team that makes a deep run and finds a better version of itself is going to have a collection of very good to great players who have all at one point been number one and number two options on their team, including Cat. And every player in that circumstance or lots of them has to have this, this realization and they almost have to go through the process themselves. Like Aaron Gordon to me is the, is the absolute textbook example of this. And Cat's on a completely different player than Aaron Gordon, I realize more accomplished, better offensively, all that. Where you just have to, like you, you learn it by having it happen to you where like, oh, if we win, I'm going to get all of the credit and all the accolades and all the money that I thought I had to score 30 points of game to get. And because that's what my whole life has been, we've seen tons of players go through this. I mean, Chris Bosch is a great example of it too. That's an obvious one. But it's not just a sweet shooting big men. It's different kinds of players. I mean, I go all the way back to on a much lower level. The one year the Hawks went really far in the playoffs. John Collins accessed a completely different style of his game than he had ever had. He was like grinding on defense, getting rebounds and everyone was giving him love. And Cat has probably realized on some level. Like, if we win, everything takes care of itself. And he's become a completely different player in this series. The consistent guys, I mean, Brunson is like a metronome. He's some games, he'll miss a little bit more, some games, some make a little bit more. He's just Joe and Brunson over and over. Heart has been awesome, the entire playoffs and just so handsy on defense, pushing the pace on offense, doing Josh Hart's stuff. I think Mitchell Robinson has been fantastic when he's played. I think they could actually play him with Catmore because Cat defensively has been able to guard your Kelli Ubrez, Gail and Johnson's whatever. But I think Mitchell Robinson when he's been in has been tremendous. Everyone that they've thrown in off the bench has been productive. Alvarado, Shamit gets in the last two games with the N and Oby injured and just plays his ass off, including guarding Maxi. Clarkson, another guy who scores, scores, scores, all of a sudden he's throwing better passes, playing better defense. Like, everyone has contributed. But to me, it's Bridges and Cat that have kind of changed the vibe of the team and look, whoever comes out of the east is going to be an underdog in the finals, whether it's Oklahoma City or San Antonio, maybe not if it's Minnesota given their injury issues. And we can't count out Minnesota. And I think the next sort of the best team in the east, we'll see how the conference finals goes. But this next team playing like this and obviously the competition is going to skyrocket from an Atlanta team who laid down and died in a game that I still can't even believe happened in real life. And a Sixers team who, what a couple of weeks for the Sixers, their fans get to enjoy the version of this team that they dreamed of and imagined. It happens. They eliminate the hated Boston Celtics, the band of their existence. They get to the next round and Embi gets hurt again. A bunch of different ways on his body and wears down and is a flat-footed show of himself on defense was eight of eight in the last game. Like, you can't hate on that. Twenty whatever points on eight of eight. And they just get rolled out of the gym while Jared McCain shows out in Oklahoma City. It occurs again. But I think to Nick's, if they make the finals, yeah, they'll be underdogs against thunder spurs. Like they've already played the spurs pretty well. The NBA is funny, man. You get into a series and on paper, it looks like this. You have one matchup advantage that you discover in game two, one schematic thing you did. And like, it's like the thunder almost lost the finals last year. I think that Nick's can win the championship. Yeah. And I'm going to add one more name, which probably wasn't top of mind for you just because he didn't play in games three or four, but OGN and OB on this. Well, my a lot of people are saying, Fred. I'm not saying it was a lot. There's a lot of buzz that ever since his cameo with me in your friends and neighbors. So a lot of things have changed for OGN and OBN. They say, just people are saying, people are saying, I'm not, I don't know who they are, but people are saying it's a good point. I did, I did really appreciate that in that cameo OG showed the exact public persona that he wants out there compared to just a very mild thank you. And that's it. So let me. So we shot that scene. I'm going to say 50 times from different angles. Sometimes we weren't even talking. They just had to shoot us mimicking the motion while they shot other things. His delivery was the same every single time. It was super fun to hang out with him. I'm not going to get into what we talked about, but let's just say like he follows the NBA extremely closely and had a lot of questions and a lot of takes about stuff. And it was so funny. All the co stars of the show, all the friends and neighbors, not John him was not there that day. Olivia Munn and Amanda Pete. I was like afraid to talk too. And it was like, I don't think I'm allowed to interact with those people. But all the supporting characters were so wonderful. And they were like star struck at an OB and to the point where he went, he went to the bathroom at one point. We're all in the green room. And I can't, I can't remember which supporting character it was supporting actress. It was like, I really want to get a photo with him because I'm a huge and expanded. So it was my daughter. I'm like, I'm kind of nervous to ask him, I'm like, you're an actress. Just go ask OG. So I went and he came out, I was like, OG, you this guy wants to take a photo with you and he will be Anyway, he was he was rock solid. He was a machine, you know, and did very well. That's what he does. He's incredibly rigorous. And that's what he's doing in this playoff run. I mean, he also, I mean, you mentioned that. I mean, it takes him, it takes a while to get him to open up. But his, his basketball knowledge is unbelievable. He really does follow the league. And part of the reason why he's as good of a defender as he is is because he is so keen to everybody's habits on the floor. And he doesn't like it when that stuff gets out. And he doesn't like sharing this stuff about. Oh, I know that when this guy goes to dribbles, right? He pulls up every time. But how is he, by the way, what I think the nicks were like, I said it after the injury. I was like, they should absolutely slow play this. They're going to win this series. Anyway, worst cases are going to split in Philly and be up three. One is, should we expect him game one of the next round? I mean, here's the things. You know that if there's one team that is going to be forthcoming with injuries, it's the New York. Next. You just, you, you are, you can fair, you can bet on everything that whatever the nicks are saying is the absolute 100% truth. The nicks have never in a million years said that Ojana Nobi was day to day for two weeks straight. And then had him undergo elbow surgery after those two weeks. That's never happened. It didn't happen. They didn't say that Duce McBride earlier this year was out with a knee injury only for him to undergo surgery for. So I should amend my, the nicks can win the championship thing to like and it'll be has to be part of it. If they're, particularly if they're facing the thunder in the finals or less so dispersed, but the thunder less so the wolves, but definitely the thunder, like they need all hands on deck. Yes. And to be clear, I'm not saying that Ojana Nobi is more hurt than the nicks are letting out. I'm just saying that I kind of have to see it before we know. The thing that the nicks really benefit from is that the conference finals is not going to start until May 17th at the earliest. And if this Detroit series goes long against Cleveland, then it won't start til the 19th. And that'll give Annobi almost two weeks off since first sustaining the injury, which is a really big deal for them. Can I just read his playoff numbers really quick? Yeah, they're, they might melt your laptop, but go ahead. They're insane. He's average in 21.4 points. He's shooting 62 from the field. He's shooting 54 from three, 81 from the line. Seven to half rebounds from a guy who is not normally like that's the one part of his game where it's like you'd like to see that a little bit higher. You'd like to see him a little bit better for rebounder. And defensively, he's been, I mean, look, I see him play all the time. I'm at so many of these games in New York. When you watch a guy who's that good, you end up, you end up becoming incredibly familiar with their nuances and defensive habits and all of that. But I really think that defensively, he's been as good as he's ever been during this playoff run, just being able to guard everybody. He's a huge credit for the way, I mean, look, the next offense has been insane. They're hidden shot after shot after shot, but defensively, they're playing out of their mind. And the huge part of that is their ability to put Annobi on anybody. So they can put Annobi on, you look at how they defended in the Hawk series. They could put Annobi on on Yekko Aakongo, which allowed them to put Karl Anthony Towns on Dyson Daniels or Mitchell Robinson on Dyson Daniels for a lot of that series. And then the next play they could put OG Annobi on Nikhil Alexander Walker. And he'll just wall off one side of the court and just take away all of Alexander Walker's relocating that he likes to do on the weak side for to create open threes against Philly. Same sort of thing. You could put him on Paul George. You could put him on imbede. It's and he is locking guys down. He is taking away entire sides of the floor. He's disruptive as hell. He's been, I actually think there's a good argument that in the eight games that he's played, he's been the best player on the next during this playoff run. And I think he's their most important player. Like I agree if he's there, they can accomplish a whole lot if he's not there. Obviously, they're still a very good team. Look at what they did to Philly in those two games without him, but it's a different sort of look, especially by the way, with the way Bridges, you mentioned Bridges' offense. Bridges' defense has was awesome. Entirely, it's maxi. Like so good. The whole thing with Bridges, that's happened over the last two years is that he's very good defending off the ball. He's really good at getting into Passingland still. He's still an excellent team defender and all of that. But his screen navigation and picking roles has taken a hit. He kind of sees the screen and can travel up sometimes. And against maxi, he was so good. Maxi is the second effort on maxi. It's so important because most guys, if you're going to trap somebody, most guys, they give up the ball and they wait a second to take a breath. And maxi will immediately, he just doesn't stop moving. He'll get off the ball and within a millisecond, he will relocate to the other side of the floor. And if whoever's defending him takes that one second to catch their breath, which they often do, he's gone. He is gone. I mean, anyone is gone. Little on the fastest player in the NBA. And Bridges' ability to just not let up on any of those plays. His ability when the nicks were, when the sixers were trying to put Jalen Brunson into these picking roles and the nicks are hedging and recovering. Which they kind of stopped doing. Like Philly just kind of gave up on that to your credit of the next defense. They just kind of the last two games, they just let Brunson exist for the most part. Yeah, totally. And and part of it also is that Brunson's had your recovering on these picking roles. And Bridges is dropping back and letting Brunson kind of try to stop maxi for a split second. And he's guarding the area, not just the player, but the area so incredibly well. And there were various times throughout the series where maxi's like, okay, I've got two guys in front of me. I got to get off the ball. And Bridges' arms are so long and his hand placement and his body placement are so good and so smart that he's just like he gets a steal off of it. He was like unbelievable defensively. And when you have him playing at that level defensively, and in a nobi playing at just normal and a nobi levels and heart playing at the level that he's been, he's been a tremendous point of attack defender for them throughout this entire playoff run. When you've got those three guys, like that's kind of the vision the nicks had for this roster when they put this together that the three wings were going to be so good defensively. It would insulate them from the weak spots. And if Kat is going to play at the level that you mentioned earlier, where it's like he's going to be in the right places. He's going to be physical. He's going to he's going to play hard. He's going to be he's he is running back on defense harder than I've ever seen. Even just things like when he blitzed, which they didn't do very often against Philly, but when he would blitz, when you're the blitz guy, you have a decision to make when you recover. Do I recover to my guy rolling to the basket? Or is our scheme that someone else takes him and I peel out and I take a shooter? Regular season Kat was awful at that. Just like sort of meandering around in open space, not getting to anywhere. When I talk about like execution of just when this happens, we do this. He is nailing that. I mean, it's in there. I ask him to do it a lot. And next series might look different in terms of what they ask him to do, but he was nailing it. Mitchell Robinson, I just want to go back to him. He's probably got more to give and they've had the luxury of managing his minutes and he missed the game in this series pretty, pretty like conservatively. Just one stat I want to mention, I looked it up on the genius IQ tracking data. Regular season, Brunson, Mitchell Robinson, 32 pick and rolls per 100 possessions against Philly, 48 per 100 possessions, 1.4 points per possession. They are running that so aggressively. Part of it was imbued. They've found a nice groove there and I think he's been awesome. And an OB defense. Let's just briefly look ahead to the next round. We don't know who they're going to play. Game 4 of Cavs, Pistons is tonight. The Pistons swept in X3O. I think Hart missed one game. Kat and Ann and OB together missed one game. Durin missed two. Stuart was suspended for one. There's guys in Atlanta. But the common theme was Detroit brought a level of physicality and effort that the Knicks just were not ready for. And that's how they play. And the Knicks better be ready for it. And the Pistons have proven it might not be pretty, but we're going to win a lot of these games. And I would expect a long series between the Pistons and the Knicks. A long tough series. And the Knicks better put the hard hats on and bring their lunchpales or whatever stupid metaphor you want to have for doing hard work. But I think a couple of things. I haven't gone back and watched the film yet because I don't want to jinks to Pistons. I don't want to curse the Cavs. Whatever. I would assume Ann and OB has guarded cutting him a fair bit because everyone will take a turn. But to me, he's a pretty perfect and a Kate Cunningham defender in that he's got bulk size and height and will not be bullied. I would expect a lot on him. And I just wonder if you watch that Orlando series in the way the magic took Durin totally out of the series by going under screens and switching on Kade. I actually think Kat can do that a little bit. And I wonder if the Knicks take a little bit of a page. Now the Cavs have not done that at all. And that surprised me a little bit in this series. But I think the Knicks have some answers that they were not really able to lock into in the regular season. But yeah, I mean, Detroit's going to come in there super confident ready to kick the crap out of them. And that would be a fun series. Cavs, I have some thoughts on what are your thoughts on what I just said about the Pistons. I think that makes a lot of sense. We saw Ann and OB be the primary guy on Kade Cunningham when those two teams played in the playoffs last year and he did a really good job. Bridges got reps on him also and Bridges did a really good job on Cunningham too. This is a a different team. I mean, you mentioned the possibility of switching that kind of stuff. That's, that's what OGM and OBS towards you. Like you can switch them on to Jalen Duren and, and you can be okay, especially if he's going to be this physical on the boards with cat. The biggest problem for me was switching cat is never, oh, it's going to get cooked by a mismatch. That's never the biggest problem for me. The biggest problem for me is you increase his possibility of getting into foul trouble, 1000 rebounds, 1000 defensive rebound. And he's so important for their defensive rebounding too, because he has been great on the boards. I'm really physical on the boards all season, not just in the playoffs, but the fouls are really what gets it, because all of a sudden, when you've got cat on any sort of aggressive pick and roll coverage with cat, that sends him out to the perimeter. I mean, part of the reason why the nicks have had him in a drop for the majority of his time, but this team is because it just keeps him at a foul trouble. It's, it's, it's, it's the best way to keep him at a foul trouble, even if you may give up a few more shots that you don't want to give up every once in a while, it keeps cat on the floor. But with the way that he's defending lately, even though he has been getting into foul trouble, a lot of that, I think it's just guarding Joel and bead who I think just will just get anybody into foul trouble. It's what he does. You talk about Bronson being a metronome and bead is a metronome in that. He could be playing well. He could be playing terribly. He's going to get you into foul trouble every time. And so I think, I think that's part of it. I think also like with the way Mitchell Robinson looks and the way that he is playing, you can afford to maybe be a little more aggressive with cats, coverages because they don't lose a ton, even with the way the cat is playing. If he has to sit for a little bit, because Robinson gives them so much and so many of these other aspects. I mean, he and Stephen Adams are these two unbelievable rebounders who are so much better on the boards than anybody else in the NBA. And I don't think anyone is even closer. The wild card is the hack-a-mitch and the combination of hack-a-mitch plus cat being in foul trouble makes these either hook-a-porty or in-an-obey-at-the-five. I think it's probably their better answer. But they have, they in-an-obey-at-the-five is a totally viable look. And they have, uh, porties been fine and they've survived those minutes. But that combination is, is a little bit problematic. And Mitchell, Mitch made his foul shots. Yes, enough of them yesterday and then game three. And the first two games, not so much true. That's a good point. I mean, Detroit, it'll be very interesting. How much Detroit wants the hack-a-mitch because Detroit fouls a lot. They could be prone to fouling a lot and you can end up putting your important players into foul trouble if Mitch is in those games early enough. And you want to try to foul like you can end up if you start doing it in the first or the second quarter. You can end up racking up one or two fouls on a guy who you do not want to be giving it to if you don't, you know, substitute somebody in just a foul-mitch. So that's something to look out for. But that's a good point. That's 100% a good point. And by the way, calves fans, I'm not counting you out, despite the fact that you can't win on the road. And every win feels like it's a disaster saved at the very end. James Harder and credit to him made three huge shots at the end of game three. Looked to not great for the majority of the game. Looked not great in the beginning of the series, but they're all live. They played tonight. The Knicks have eaten the calves lunch for most of the last two or three seasons. But I will say the last time they played, I believe it was in New York, Cleveland had everybody. And they found a little something with the alignment of Dean Wade on Brunson, mowably on cat and Jared Allen on Josh Hart. Because it put your center on Josh Hart to rove, it had a quick elite defender on cat to take away his airspace and a switchable defender on Brunson. Now, Wade has been so bad offensively that I'm not going to be surprised if they start shrews tonight in game four in his spot in the Wade. Two big combo has been very trouble. I mean, the starting, the cab starting five has actually been like by the numbers. Okay. And the playoffs, not this series. But they, I felt like they found a defensive formula that at least in that one game gave the Knicks some issues. But I just don't have a lot of faith in the calves based on how they have played so far in the playoffs. Based on how disorganized they look offensively, the total lack of cohesion between Mitchell and Hardin, neither of whom is playing all that well. And just harden the wear down factor. He's almost 37 years old or maybe already 37 years old and already looks worn down and the playoffs just get longer and harder every, every round. So I would, I would probably peg Detroit as the tougher opponent for the Knicks. But the calves did go. I want to go back and watch that games. I felt like they found a little something finally against the team that is bullied them and beaten the crap out of them on the boards over and over again. Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. The, I think it'll come back to the rebounding in that one again. Like, can the calves look to Cleveland? And if it comes down to the rebounding, may God be with you. Jared Allen and Evan Moldley. Well, Cleveland is going to have to find ways to make up for losing that game because the Knicks are very good offensively. A very good overall rebounding team with not just Mitchell Robinson, but Kat's been really good. And Josh Hart is one of the best, the best rebounding player at least of his height in the NBA, one of the best rebounding perimeter players in the league. And that team is just a really good team rebounding is really good at just gang rebounding in general and really good at chasing down loose balls. And, and Cleveland's going to have to make up for it in other ways. They're going to have to get to the line. They're going to have to hit their threes. And Cleveland is very big. I'm wanting to win the possession game. They have all of these, you know, crashing strategies to try to get offensive boards that makes them, I think, a better offensive rebounding team than their personnel might suggest, even though they play a double big. Like, they don't have phenomenal rebounding personnel in general. But like they will have to make up for that, the make up for the math in some point because the rebounding would be huge with Detroit, different story. Now, all of a sudden you're talking about, like, is the three point line going to change things because Detroit is going to have to play these lineups where they're going to have to out tough the next, which they might be able to do. But they're not going to hit a ton of threes in those lineups. And we just saw the next go 11 for 12 from three in a quarter in an NBA playoff game, which was outrageous. They shooting with the next has been absurd. And I don't think he'll necessarily keep up at 11 for 12 levels. It was five for 44. That's pretty great. It was, it was insane. I mean, do some bride could miss. And Shamit was hitting these shots. And it was like my shamit's good. I'm happy for shamit that the sort of fortune gave him a chance to work his way back in the rotation because if you're going to make a long playoff run, you're going to need all your rotation, guys at some point, guys fall in. They fall out. He played well enough that even when in an OB comes back, I think they could try to find spots where he fits. Let's just quickly talk about the sixers. Obviously a super dispiriting end to their season. Tony Jones had a piece for the athletic, the sort of post mortem where he hinted that NBA was not psyched about the front office and the coaching staff coming, coming out of the playoffs, coming out of the McCain trade and all of that. I think, you know, there was pressure on Darrell Moria, Nick Nurse, winning in the first round the way they did against Boston, the number two seed. I think alleviated some of that. This outcome may bring a little bit of it back. I just don't know like, what are your alternatives if you're the sixers? And it's sort of a boring discussion to me because I just feel like this is kind of who they are. Like no one is trading for imbede. Maybe someone could talk themselves into Paul George, but it's not going to be a trade that changes your short term, medium term life as a franchise for the sixers. And you're probably going to have to attach something to get off of him. And I'm not sure you want to do that. Because everything needs to be aimed at the maxi edge comb timeline. And you have a couple of draft assets coming from the clippers. You have the rockets pick this year. I don't, they're, they're capped out. They could have the mid level or a piece of the mid level to add another guy, but that doesn't include Ubrei. Grimes is an important player for them. I dare just, I, I don't know. We'll see what kind of rabbits they can pull out of a hat, but it feels like this is just kind of what they are. Yeah, I mean, the problem with them is that even you include the mid level, like, they had, Nick nurse had six guys who he trusted when it mattered. And Grimes was not good for them during this run. Ubrei was really good sometimes, but he's a role player. And the reality is that when you only have six guys who you trust and you get to a point where it's like every other day, it's just going to be really, really hard to actually win, especially when a couple of them have off nights or Joelle and Beat can't play, which is something that always has to be baked into the formula because there are always going to be moments where he's unable to play. And he's not going to play for an entire playoff run and just be good to go for every game. Yeah, you know, it was interesting to hear him after the game history. Talk about how he feels like they figured out the knee and that all this other stuff, including appendicitis and like, he wasn't quite, his core wasn't quite over that in the finals. And so maybe there's a cause for optimism. Like, if we figured out the main thing and if all of these other crazy subsequent things don't happen, can we get 60 games in a full playoff run out of him? I'll also, I just don't have, it's the least sexy take in the world. I just don't ever see him being healthy for a full playoff run. And as long as that remains the case with this core, I just think they're just not going to get, I mean, they've been dead in the second round every time. I just, it doesn't seem possible to me. And so that's fine. You get, you know, you got to enjoy the moments like you had against Boston where the team was the team you dreamed of for a little bit and know that it's probably not going to last and it didn't, that's still a hell of a fun series for Sixers fans. Yeah. I mean, look, even if he's out there, like, it's one thing for him to be out there. It's another thing for him to be out there and like, be MVP, Joel and bead. And you mentioned him going eight for eight and having 24 points. And that's a great line. But the next also made him the premier target for this whole series, they, they treated him. They treated him as if they would have treated NS canter, you know, like they were. Wow. And it's freedom, first of all. as freedom. But that's how I'm not saying he's become that. I'm saying that's how they treated him. It was the exact same game plan that you would have if you were facing somebody like that. It was just pull him out. They put him beat and 99 picking roles during this series. And they scored 124 points. I mean, it was 99 picking roles. I mean, it's that's like a half court offense is supposed to yield you maybe a shade over a point of possession if you're really good at it. Like it's not supposed to be 124 points and 99 picking roles. And they were just pulling him out. Like you mentioned the efficiency of the Mitchell Robinson picking role. It's like they were just looking for him beat and be like go at that guy over and over. And it's not like he doesn't have defensive value anymore. He's still good around the rim. He's really smart. He knows how to use his size. He knows how to position himself. Guys will still drive into the lane. See him there. See how big he is. See these well positioned and they'll turn around and they'll go the other way. And that's totally a thing still. But if you can pull him away from the rim and teams do that, man, the sixers defense just look like it couldn't stop anything. And that's a problem. He was also, he was also just physically a different guy than he was in the last two or three games of the Boston series. Like just the power on offense that he showed in that series. And like he looked for stretches pretty fast defensively, including the ability to make two and three rotations and rapid fire on the same possession. And he could not do that against the next look. We got, we're going to have time to talk about the next. We're going to have time to talk about the sixers. We await now the conference finals. The nicks are back in it exactly where they were last year when they broke their quarter century, you know, drought or whatever. And now we await to see if they can break the other drought, the finals drought. And then there's another drought after that. Fred Katz from the athletic will be there chronicling all of it. I'll see you soon at the world's most famous arena. Yes. I'll see you there. All right. That's it for today's special Monday edition of the Zach Lo Show. We'll be back on Thursday as scheduled reacting to whatever the hell happens in the NBA between now. And then thanks to John Krasinski, Jonathan Gavoney and Fred Katz for their invaluable analysis and their time. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lo Show. We'll be back later this week. 21 or over in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 and over in president DC. 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