100. Klaus Moosmayer and Richard Bistrong: Countering Corporate Arrogance to Prevent Ethical Failures

(upbeat music) Companies are in business to show financial performance, right? They have shareholders, they have stakeholders. They will come time when your values get challenged. Part of it is habituating and normalizing that as a human being in a corporate culture, whether it's procurement or sales, that this might actually happen, you're giving someone the runway and the pathway to come to you when they do feel that tension. - I think this, giving the people a voice and a room is super important. And then this is often misunderstood. I think all companies are doing kind of surveys. I mean, you find this everywhere, pulse checks about ethical cultural surveys. But then there is often no action afterwards. That's super dangerous. - Welcome to the leading Transmational Change Podcast. Our passion is to help you lead and develop organizations with a remarkably healthy culture that can constitute the impact of all of its stakeholders. When we launched this podcast, we dropped to our long conversations with world-leading researchers and experts on culture, bioethics, change, and leadership. - My name is Tobias Dussar and I'm your host and the co-founder of Art Management. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you. Thank you for trusting us with your time. For your encouraging words and your kind feedback, we're truly grateful. For this special 100th episode, I'm super excited to share a conversation marking the beginning of the journey connected to my book You Can Culture. Throughout 2025, as many of you know, we'll continue exploring transformative leadership habits and practices that can profoundly impact your organization's culture. Today's episode features a live webinar discussion with Klaus Mousmeier and Richard Bistron on Habit One from the Book, Get humble. Klaus Mousmeier is Chief Ethics Risk and Compliance Officer and a member of the Executive Committee at Farma Giant Novartis. Richard Bistron, a former vice president of salesist or prison time for corruption, now uses his experiences to help organizations build more ethical cultures. We had a thought-provoking practical and also deeply honest conversation about a challenging but crucial topic, how to overcome corporate arrogance and embrace humility to avoid willful blindness and ethical failures. But before we jump into the conversation, I wanted to share about a fantastic free resource to help you cultivate the culture of integrity in your organization. I know that we all share a desire to build successful companies that can earn and sustain a high level of trust from employees, clients, investors and regulators. Research shows that trust depends not only on your competent being competent in delivering great products and services, but also being perceived as ethical. While a robust formal compliance program is essential to maintaining trust, it's the informal side, culture, human behavior and leadership practices that ultimately determines its effectiveness. Both the Department of Justice and the OECD highlight this in their guidelines for effective compliance programs. Additionally, an extensive MIT study found that bad culture is the main reason employees leave companies. Cultures set the heart of your company's ability to deliver on its mission, achieve strategic goals, build a thriving workplace and have an ethical impact. Yet many find culture complex and difficult to understand and 85% of culture transformation initiative failed. That's why a road you can culture and in addition, we've created a free guide on cultivating a culture of integrity and ethics, drawing from our experience working with large multinational companies to develop new leadership habits. Many have shared how insightful and helpful they found it and I believe you will too. You can download the guide for free at heartmanagement.org/integrity, heartmanagement.org/integrity. But now without further ado, let's jump into the conversation that begins with me giving a bit of an introduction to getting humble, why it matters, what the challenges are, and why I'm so excited to have this conversation with Claus and Richard. Enjoy. I wanted to give a bit of an introduction to why do we talk about this habit of getting humble? And I think for some of you, you have already read a bit in my book, you can culture and you have some understanding or some introduction. And of course, for those of you who haven't, our perspective, what we found in working with so many organizations and having conversations with researchers around the world, is that when it comes to cultivating healthy culture, it's not something we do through those short-term projects. And I think as Andreas said, that 85% of them fail, it comes through changing the signals of what is encouraged, rewarded, or not accepted within an organization. And those signals are shaped by our habits, and especially by leadership habits, across an organization. I think it's very important that I wrote something that I linked in very recently that it's so easy to only focus on tone from the top. And of course, tone from the top matters immensely. But so does the signals that are sent from all different levels of an organization. So we identified four habits. The first habit is to get humble. And I just thought about as we made this invitation to this event, I mean, if we would have sent out instead, how to create the high-performing organization or whatever, maybe that would sound a bit more attractive than an event with a topic, get humble. But I want to share a little bit of why that is so incredibly important and why that is the first habit and the fundamental habit for anything else to make sense. In the process of writing "You Can Culture," my original Texas-based publisher collapsed in the span of just a few weeks. There were several hundreds of employees. And they had been celebrated at a best place to work. And their CEO had even been hailed as this champion of modern leadership. And they made these bold claims on their website that these are our values, and they permeate all behaviors and all decisions in our company. And then they collapsed. And it became really clear in the aftermath that there hadn't been any real accountability for leadership, no ability to speak up to senior leadership, no transparency about key aspects of their business. And ultimately, the company lost their client's trust and went bankrupt. You know, there are so many companies, and I'm sure we've seen examples of that ourselves, that make these grand statements on their website. Like, I'm just taking one example. I'm not after picking on them. But we make this claim that these are our values. These are our behaviors that permeate all and guide all decisions at our company. Or we have zero tolerance for corruption in this company. But I think we also all understand that no company and no leader will consistently in every situation live up to our values. We are all vulnerable. In the introduction to this habit in my book, I share another story that talks about an organization that I visited in the US that had gone through this very, very public, highly publicized scandal that was on the New York Times and really in use around the world. And the new leadership had put in the unenviable place of trying to rectify the situation, trying to restore trust. And it was so clear that there had been these red flags, that there had been credible people that had raised concerns, but they hadn't been listened to instead. They tried to silence them. They tried to badmouth them and so on. And as I met that leadership team, I told them that, of course, you're going to need to implement structures and formal processes and so on to ensure that this same thing, this leadership misconduct, which was sexual in nature, doesn't happen again. But what I think is just as important is to reflect on, why did we act like we did? Why didn't we listen? Why did we treat this situation as a PR problem instead of looking at the underlying issues? Why did it have to cost us so incredibly much before we actually took action? There's this illusion, and I talk about that in the book, that we are the good company with a healthy culture and noble values, something that I call the health illusion. And it's incredibly dangerous, both on an organizational and a personal level. We become blind to signs that we're viewing off track. We treat concerns like PR problems and attempt to fix issues by making bold statements or publishing new values instead of addressing root causes. People won't admit their challenges and won't ask for help even when they need it. And we look for scapegoats instead of taking responsibility. So this really leads us to the need to get humble. The organizational psychologist, Adam Grant, defines humility like this, that humility is often misunderstood. It's not a matter of having low self-confidence. One of the Latin roots of the word humility means from the Earth. It's about being grounded, recognizing that we're flawed and fallible. And if you just reflect for a second, do you think that that is a mindset that really permeates your organization and your leaders? Humility is considered the number one virtue in several philosophical and religious traditions. And Professor Edgerstein, for example, who is seen as the modern father of culture, or the father of modern culture research had wrote extensively on humility, including two books called Humble Leadership and Humble Inquiry. And in my experience, what really made me really understand the power of getting humble was working with an organization quite many years ago now. That had gone through, again, this big scandal that had really uncovered some really toxic elements in their culture and just some lack of checks and balances and a lot of things around leadership misconduct. And what was so special about this process is that the leadership were willing to, instead of seeking scapegoats, they were willing to assess their culture, identify their blind spots, and uncover how they had drifted from their values. This was an incredibly challenging process. I'm not going to say anything else as we, as I worked with this leadership team, to really dig deep into what was it that led to the place where we found ourselves? How could we veer off course from our values in such a significant way? How did we end up with these elements of toxicity in our culture? And we started to put words on that. And then ultimately, they were willing to publicly go in front of their organization and say, and apologize and take ownership and responsibility for what had become of the organization. And of course, there was a lot of things that needed to be done to really drive a cultural transformation. There was governance models that needed to be changed. There were checks and balances that needed to be put in place. There were whistleblower systems that needed to be put in place and all of that. But it's all the cultural change that really was tremendous. And I talk about it in the book, started with getting humble. And I've come to see humility, not just as this virtue that we think about, oh, that's a humble person, but really as a lived practice, something that we must consciously over and over again practice. And in you can culture, outline three core practices for cultivating humility, and these are the ones that we're going to be having kind of as a foundation for our conversation here today, to embrace vulnerability, which really means that we don't just assume that our culture is healthy, our leadership, values driven, or our employees consistently ethical. Instead, we recognize our fallibility, and we accept that we will locationally veer, of course. And when I say accept, it doesn't mean that we think it's OK. No, I talk about that in the book about dealing with unhelpful and destructive behavior. What I mean with that is to say that we understand that that is the reality that we're operating in. And because of that, we foster a culture where we talk about the dilemmas that we face. We would talk about our blind spots, where we don't assume that everyone is going to do this perfectly. Instead, we assume that people at every level in the organization is vulnerable. And I just want to say here that I think that the kind of proliferation in the last years of employee branding and consultants, and I'm one of them, and I worked in communication before I'm sure I'm part of the problem there. But I think that that proliferation of ways of making or sustainability reporting and all these things, the ways that we try to make ourselves look so great to the outside world. But where we don't really take the time to look at what is the reality and operate from that reality that that has really done us a big disservice. The second thing is that we take ownership. Understanding our imperfections means resisting the urge to deflect blame or seek scapegoats when things go wrong. And I'm sure that you've seen that in, if you've studied corporate scandals, or perhaps you've experienced one in your company, or whether in a small scale or a large scale, but it's so easy to only focus on how to avoid liability. And of course, that is an incredibly important question. But I'm going to point that out a little bit later that actually looking at how do we rebuild trust will actually force us to think differently, to take ownership. And we want to create a culture in our organization. And I'm sure that everyone listening to this conversation does where people instead of first thinking about how something, if they see an issue in their culture or something going wrong in their team, instead of thinking why it's everyone else's fault that they instead start with thinking about what is my responsibility? How could my leadership have contributed to these elements of unhealthy in our culture, whatever that might be? And how could I, by changing my behavior, contribute to a change? And if we can instill that type of mindset in our organization, we have such a power to drive really, really powerful change in our organization. And the third thing is rebuilding broken trust. I love this TED Talk from a social psychologist named Becky Kennedy. She talks about parenting. And her parenting is about the number one parenting strategy. And she says that the number one parenting strategy is to get good at repair. Because that every parent will mess up, and I for sure do, and creates disconnection with her child, we must become experts at taking ownership and lending broken trust. And the same is true for every leader and every organization. Assuming that we will mess up, we also then need to learn how to take ownership and apologize and actually communicate around that whether it's a small thing, like, oh, I forgot to invite someone to a meeting which can create this breach of trust, or it's the bigger thing where we fail to live up to our values as a company. How we respond in those moments matters the most. When leaders aren't willing to get humble, we get lots of different problems. And the thing is that I think all the other, or the other three leadership habits here, become powerless because we can talk all we want about creating a speak-up culture. But if the leaders in our organization don't see that they actually need to hear the concerns, need to listen, they aren't going to be listening. So that humility, that getting humble, sits as the foundation for everything else. And I want to just take some examples of some research that supports this. I read this study recently in Harvard Business Review about why companies should disclose their lack of progress on diversity, equity, and inclusion. And what they found in their study was that when companies disclose personal or organizational vulnerabilities like unfavorable diversity numbers, they are viewed more positively than companies that stay silent, transparency, signals, genuine commitment, and builds trust. And they write this, and I thought this was great to read. They write that we know from decades of research that when people disclose personal information, they are more apt to be liked and trusted. One reason for this is that when we disclose sensitive information that exposes our vulnerabilities, we communicate something more profound than the content of the information itself, that we're willing to be genuine even if it means taking a risk. In the case of lagging diversity numbers, the act of transparency signals something beyond the particular numerical representation. It signals that the organization is genuinely committed to the goal of advancing diversity because they're willing to be honest about their current understanding, even if it's risky to do so. I just thought this was fantastic, because I think that's exactly how it works. And trust researcher, Professor Sandra Sutra, it's Harvard, who I've interviewed extensively for the book, found that while leaders often fear apologizing, believing it will be used against them, apologies actually improve public perception and trust. So if we think that trust, or if we realize, then acknowledge that trust is business critical for our company, we have to understand that getting humble is really fundamental to that. So I want to leave you with just some thoughts or questions that I think are interesting to ponder here before we jump into the conversation, and I invite Klaus and Richard onto the stage here. But perhaps our drive to only communicate how great an ethical a company is might actually be harming us. And perhaps confidence and humility aren't in conflict, but arrogance and humility are. And perhaps cultivating a thriving and ethical culture isn't rocket science, but it requires integrating practices that involve interpersonal risk and that challenge our comfort zone. And I sure that you might still have reservations about this habit about getting humble. You may be thinking that, I mean, this sounds good in theory, but you haven't met our leadership team. You don't know our company, or how can this work in the pressure of everyday business. And that's why I felt it was so fantastic as we start this journey of the you can culture journey and start here with humility that we have two people with us today that I think our people are really in the midst and have experienced the pressures of business who are not just thinking about this from some naive perspective, but who have really thought about this in the settings of corporations that they are working at or have been working at. And of course, we have Richard Bystrom with us. And I'm sure that many of you here know something about his story of going from being the vice president of international sales in a large company traveling the world in sales and then ending up becoming part of corrupt practices and ultimately ending up in prison. And today, really working with organizations around the world to help them really integrate better practices to stay on the right side of the law but also to operate with ethics. And we also have Klaus Mousmeier with us who I also think needs no presentation, but he is the executive vice president of ethics, risk and compliance at Novartis, the large global farmer company. And in Klaus and I, we've had a few conversations together and I've really appreciated his humility and also looking at nuts wanting to say that. And I'll just take this example because I was actually listening to him some months ago in Geneva at this panel conversation where the interviewer were asking different leaders of ethics and compliance in different companies whether ethics was something that was a part of their DNA as a company. And one after another, people said, yes, it is. And I was sitting there thinking, no, that's bullshit. But then it came to Klaus and he said, no, I think we need to be a bit humble about this. And that's why I also thought that he would be such a fantastic person to have with us in this conversation. So without further ado, let's invite Klaus Mousmeier and Richard Baistrong into the conversation. In my book, you can culture, I describe humility not just as a virtue, but as a habit. And I just wanted to start by asking both of you, what is your relationship with the idea of getting humble? Why do you think, or don't you think, which would be very interesting, that it matters? Richard, go first. Wow, Klaus. Well, first of all, Tobias, thank you for the invitation to join you on talking about a very sensitive subject humility and to everyone who's joining us. And it's always a pleasure to see Klaus again. So I'm very excited about this discussion. You know, one of the things you talk about in the book, Tobias, are rituals, OK? And one of my rituals is I have a morning meditation that comes into my email box. And if there are no coincidences, today's was be honest in small things and in all things. And it concludes with guard your thoughts, they become your deeds, guard your deeds, they form your character, guard your character, it decides your destiny. And humility, I was thinking, is a thought, right? That's where it starts. And to me, the polls that exist are humility and narcissism, OK? And I've lived on the narcissism side. And I appreciate that when we're humble, personally, and we project humility, that we're keeping ourselves away from this, what's in it for me, me, and me, mentality. And we can talk about what that means practically for individuals, for leaders, for all of us. But I think that one thing that I either heard class right or say, which I think captures it, especially in a volatile commercial environment, is class one said, acknowledge success. Don't over-celebrate it. And I think that is the perfect-- an equally impressive definition of humility is that we can enjoy commercial success. We can enjoy doing well at our jobs. But what do we do with that success? And does that success lead us to think, well, now I can even do more? And then all of a sudden, we have this success addiction. So maybe we can, for me, personally, and I've also had some recent challenges on this, is if we stay humble, we keep away from that narcissism. And it's not about my organization. It's all about me. So those are some initial thoughts. Thank you, Richard. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. First of all, congratulations. Richard always said, you're outfit. I'm always absolutely smashed by your outfit side. You'd be very humble on this, right? So Andreas Tobias, thank you very much for inviting us. It is most relevant to this cast. Not an easy one, to be honest, not an easy one. To get humble for companies and people in companies, it is often a very tough experience, because it's by experience in many ways. We want to have an honest conversation here, right? So I mean, in the corporate world, the context matters, of course. In the context often asks for overconfidence. Look, if I take a company like Mamatos now, and I was before 18 years at Siemens, where there ought to be two major turn-arounds in two different industries. But these companies are here for hundreds of years and have, I mean, a horizon of planning over decades, if you produce and research about new medicines, but we are measured also for good transparency and reason on a quarterly basis. But oh Lord, if you miss one quarter of results, you're getting smashed. I mean, you're getting really bashed by the investors, by the journalists, by everyone. So what I want to say is the corporations and companies have this inherent risk to always demonstrate overconfidence, to show the nice PowerPoint slides at the conferences, not to show weaknesses. And this is what you said to be, as you are under company, to say we are wonderful, we are great, we have best numbers and feedback and suddenly big BAM. And there's the big scandal and everything falls together. And therefore, to be honest, thank you for reminding me, I would say this, this statement culture is part of our DNA or zero-corruption is part of our DNA or ethics is part of our DNA. This is this overconfidence. This is this wishful thinking. But also let me protect a little bit the corporations, because I mean, it's so difficult to be just to show a vulnerability, one of your themes, on open stage. And Richard knows this from his many conferences and interactions he is doing. I mean, there are not so many companies maybe are willing to show this vulnerability and sharing this with you openly, maybe, and a chat roomhouse rules in the backroom. Because if you show us a company vulnerability on a stage, the people say, oh, there's a problem, they have issues. Maybe not so shiny and should we invest in them? So it's really tough for corporations to be humble and to show vulnerabilities. There's a liberty not to talk too much. There's really attention, a certain dilemma in the corporate world. And I think that, thank you, Klaus. And I think that demonstrates the linkage between humility and vulnerability. Something that I'll never forget is one of my clients. Very often at a compliance internal event, the CEO will start off with a very often, it's an aspirational speech, right? We do the right thing. We have great values, Tobias. It's what you talked about at the beginning. And I mean, this must have been five years ago. And I remember it like it was yesterday. He talked about how he was bullied as a child. And that this experience of being bullied as a child informed how serious he takes ethics and compliance and good conduct as an adult. And for the CEO to show the kind of vulnerability, it sends that message that if the CEO is willing to share that part of his life, we also can do the same here without being fearful. So that practically had a big impression on me. I saw one compliance leader leading a session. And she admitted that she made a compliance mistake in a process. And she said, I broke my own rule. And I went ahead and here's what I did to correct it. So again, showing that vulnerability of we all make mistakes, makes us feel, I think, safer about admitting our own vulnerabilities and our own fallibility and can help keep us humble. I think this is so great in these examples that you're giving Richard. And I'm thinking about this, that in one way you could say that if we don't get humble, there's a big chance we might get humbled. And maybe a lot of companies only get humbled when they got humbled because of something happened that led to a scandal and so on. And then suddenly you had to rethink your practices. But I wanted to hear here from both of your perspectives. Because if we, for example, take from your perspective and your story and example, Richard, and I, from conversations that you and I have had, I've heard you share about the pressure between-- or the tension between the pressure to succeed and the pressure to comply and the pressure to stay on the ethical path. And of course, that's something that people across our organizations, and I know that we have lots of ethics and compliance professionals and leaders in this call. We have lots of other people as well, but many represent that. And so-- and of course, we know that many of our people are experiencing these tensions out around the world. And at the same time, I've also talked to so many ethics and compliance professionals who would say, but if they would only come to me and talk about their dilemmas, but people don't dare. It's not something that is part of the culture. It's not something that we talk about. And to ask you, Richard, what do you think that what could companies do to support people like you are in that situation? And like so many hundreds of thousands of people are around the world, to support them, to feel that they can actually-- that it's not taken for granted that they're going to navigate all this by themselves, but that they're actually fallible, and that they will be tempted to do the wrong thing, and then actually be able to talk about the challenges. Well, I think the first thing is to acknowledge it, is to say, look, there will come times where you think you're in the middle of competing corporate objectives. In class and I have talked about this, companies are in business to show financial performance. They have shareholders. They have stakeholders. There will come time when your values get challenged. That is a part of corporate life. And you might think that we're talking on two different voices-- the voice of business and the voice of compliance. But we don't mean to. So when you feel like you're in the middle of competing corporate objectives in thinking, what does the company really want? Respect for the code of conduct or these aggressive forecasts. Don't decide on yourself, come to us. So I think part of it is habituating and normalizing that as a human being in a corporate culture, whether it's procurement or sales, that this might actually happen, you're giving someone the runway and the pathway to come to you when they do feel that tension. And I share that as an individual. Classum fascinated to hear, how do you do that as a corporation where you have people all over the world facing such financial pressure? I think this-- giving the people a voice and a room is super important. And this is often misunderstood. I think all companies are doing a kind of surveys. I mean, you find this everywhere. Pulse checks about ethical cultural surveys. Not super dangerous, by the way. If you offer something, I listen to you. But then nothing happens afterwards. And I would bet this is the most of the cases. No visibility that after speaking up, the listeners are really acting. I don't think there's no survey fatigue in corporations. There is a fatigue of non-action after an ethics survey. I give you one practical example. When we did one of our first global ethics surveys, it was a very unpleasant feedback in one area that there's deep in the company still the fear of retaliation, the fear of retaliation. And if you just leave it as it is, nothing will change. So you need them to do the hard work. Go local, do the round tables. Be humble. Listen. What is the issue in the local context? Maybe different in the one country from the other country. So this is really, really hard work. And again, the one thing is the nice thing to say we're doing global surveys and Pulse checks. The other thing is, what are you doing to address the often unpleasant, very unpleasant for corporate leader messages, which come out of your organization? It all takes time. We will last, because scandals and companies are big opportunities for a cultural change. And also, I have their risks. I always have to smile. When half a year after the scandal broke out, the leader said, now we are a different company. Yes, it's a past. Now we are different company. This was last year. But today, we have a different culture. Nonsense. I mean, this is hard work, Richard. Not a half a year of a new slogan. No, I'm sorry, go on, Richard. Pivot on-- I can pivot on everything that Klaus says, because it's so interesting and relevant and resonating. But I read an article about-- I think it was in the MIT Sloan Journal-- that people are getting fatigued by these surveys. And the reason why they're getting fatigued by these surveys is because they don't think the company is doing anything with it. So they are disengaging. And one of the solutions that the authors said was called the one, two, three solution. Take one of the most difficult findings from the survey and work with a group to come up with two possible solutions to this problem and follow up at least three times with the group about what's being done about it. So I love this one, two, three rule from surveys. Really, really helpful. Super helpful, and I think it, Klaus, in-- I mean, you are a part of an executive team. And you've also-- I mean, you worked at Siemens now at Novartis. And we also know that the farmer industry has gone through. It's challenges in terms of being seen as trusted. And I'm thinking that arrogance-- if we would say that arrogance is the opposite of humility. Of course, you mention narcissism as well. But if we think about that arrogance-- and I think about a conversation I had with Hiltro Ivano, who came in as part of the management board at Volkswagen after the scandal. And she told me on our podcast that the mindset at the company at the time was like, we are the benchmark. Why should we listen to the outside world? And there wasn't this culture of listening and speaking up and so on. And so if we think about how costly this arrogance is, and Jim Collins in his book on why the mighty fall, that's what he puts at the first step is that arrogance. And what do you think-- I mean, from your vantage point and your position, Klaus, can be done to avoid that type of arrogance and to foster humility and to avoid the cost of that arrogance? I would say we have to a little bit change our way of thinking about the purpose of a corporation. Everyone brings the purpose rightfully so in the front. And but the purpose is often-- if we listen to how these purpose statements are, a little bit in this arrogance corner, I would say. And if we could have a discussion, it's difficult to say where for purpose, but we also need to acknowledge the shortcomings, the failures, the dilemmas. I mean, in the former industry, it's a prime example. It was always since a very arrogant industry. Why? Because the purpose per se is fantastic. I think therefore, I always say you can always criticize that. But I mean, the purpose to save extent people's lives by medicine compared to other industries is a prime purpose. But this somehow converted to an arrogance, which was not seeing any more the dilemmas we have in this industry. From early research or development, how we manufacture, how we sell, how we interact, for profit on health. So I think we need to also executive teams and the boards to see this purpose discussion. Is this now also linked to a humble recognition? What responsibility are accountability, ethical lemmas are coming with? And this is normally not taking place today. I would say, therefore, it's too big to fail. Poppy comes, comes to me. We are so important, so important the purpose and-- and I think there we have not overcome, I believe, in the industry of this situation. I'm thinking about how to make this a practice. I was talking to the head of ethics and compliance at Skansk the other day. And she shared this example of, in terms of safety culture, something they do, because they had a lot of issues with-- or not, but they had more significant issues with people dying in workplace accidents. And of course, this is a big large construction company. And she was sharing that they created this kind of like-- that whenever a significant accident happened somewhere around the world, they stop work across the world, and they stop in silence. And it is a way to get the whole organization to focus on safety and on the importance of safety. And something I'm reflecting on, and Richard, would you want to start there to think about, what are ways that companies by kind of acknowledging-- and I think it's, of course, is both true in terms of companies and leaders personally, acknowledging past failures, both organizational and personally, while ensuring those lessons are not forgotten. I mean, how can we make that into something that actually helps us as we're moving forward to stay humble? It's interesting. It brings up so many different thoughts. And I'll just speak to the personal side. And this is something I haven't shared, but it's snuck up on me, without me thinking about it, is I went from narcissism to humility. And when you're sitting in a federal prison for 14 and 1/2 months in a cube, you have plenty of time to think about what got you there. And the humility that comes with that. And over time, and we've worked together, what I do is very exciting. It's interesting. I get to go all over the world and work with different companies from different organizations. And I started to realize I was moving away from that humility in what Hiltred Werner calls shock to shame, to change, and to realize that the shame part of it that doesn't go away. You mentioned the power of regret by Daniel Pink, which had a huge impact on me. And now I start my presentations and my workshops with the reminder of how much I regret my decisions. And I show these are cards that my children go to me when I was in prison. This is a Father's Day card. It's a birthday card. And to say, look, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for giving me a second chance. But I don't-- in a way, I wish I was doing anything else but being here, because I regret the decisions that I made each and every day, and they were avoidable. So my ritual and Klaus had his team. I think it was Brett Hudson and some of the lawyers that were involved in his DPA. They wrote this wonderful article about going through the DPA process. And in that article was also that humility. It wasn't-- well, with the DPA, we're the new Novartis now. It was, we always keep our eye on the ball here. This is not something that we put completely in the rear view mirror, and we forget about. So I think that when we have that shame part of this shot to shame to change, that we shouldn't totally forget about what got us there and to always embrace some part of that humility and not to let it go. And that's speaking very personally. If I may interject here, I fully support this. I believe these personal examples, but they need the stage in the companies, which is not always there, Richard. Because corporate memory is shockingly short. Shockingly short. Therefore, I said, a scandal is a huge opportunity to drive change, but also has its risks, because you notice the beers in Richard. I mean, if you look at companies who went through a scandal, the compliance fatigue came in after a couple of years. They it was bureaucracy, then they moved back. They cut the budgets. So the personal example, this is what, at the end, brings people to reflect and to think. I think there we-- I'm fully in this. Well, it's not easy in companies. And I repeat this, corporate memory is shockingly short in organizations. So people absolutely make the difference. So with that in mind, and I think you are, that is so true. And I think about it, there's this kind of story of someone going looking at themselves in the mirror and then walking away and forgetting what they look like. I feel that that's often what organizations do when they assess their culture something like that. We very easily want to forget that. And then we, again, hold on to whatever statements we want to portray. And I think then, again, my message is, because I think we're all sitting here in this meeting. We understand, I mean, that the companies that we work for, of course, I mean, they should deliver great returns to their shareholders and like all these things. So we're not talking about some naive, fluffy idea. But saying that this is actually fundamental to avoiding a lot of the risks and the things that companies can find themselves ending up in. And just even if we don't go that far, even just getting good ideas on the table, getting, I mean, having good quality on our products because in and so on. But if I could ask you both and maybe starting with you, Klaus, what do you see as kind of practices that you still think, whether on you take it to whatever you level you want to, that leaders and companies can implement to cultivate that humility. What are things that you have found or helpful? And it might be personal to you. Yeah, I think we can structure it in two layers. Because there's also a very operational side of things. To be honest, and humble, to maintain over time, honest, open culture and companies also needs investment. This is not coming by free. You need the right structure, the right people. I mean, this is my big topic, you know, this integrated assurance. I mean, if you see a problem in safety, you normally have problems in the human right side of an anti-bribery side of things as well. If you have a quality issue, there's maybe a bigger cultural topic in the company. And what can be normally do quite well, they focus on the one issue, they solve it, then they move on, right? Don't look left to right. You have to look left and right if there is a topic. Normally, it spreads like cancer. It's normally like cancer. And this most company don't want to see this. And then I come to a controversial point, but it's also that the relationship between the legally department and the ethics or compliance and risk departments. I mean, as long as compliance is the little sister, brother of legal, and it's difficult to raise the voice. Legal has a super important role to protect the company and to shield the company, but you need also people, the company you say, I want to look left and right. I want to see the full picture. And I want a holistic integrated assurance system to keep the company on track. This is also, I mean, in all humility, you will not cover everything, but at least you see more. It's also investment. And then the second layer, of course, if there is no real, I mean, intrinsic willingness by the board, executive committee, the CO, forget it. I mean, if this is, you know this, if this is just a talk and there has no support for the real change and the drive, then anyway, it's from the very beginning, not to join the set up for success. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, it really means the world just if you would share, rate, and review it on iTunes. 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