KISS's Gene Simmons & Paul Stanley Unpack the Importance of Songwriting

Your studio records got outshined by some of your live records. Oh, totally. What we were doing live was so full of adrenaline and passion. Were there people that were in parallel to you that you felt like this band is great. We got to write a better song. You see Led Zeppelin on stage, the riffs are undeniable and they look like rock gods. Anybody can write a song, but it doesn't make your songwriter. That's a craft you work at. I'm curious why as young as you're 12 years old now, how come you know this stuff? Before we start the music, just introduce yourselves. I'm Stevie Nicks, Paul Stanley here and I'm Richard Simmons. So I'm going to play some songs and you're going to tell me who the artist is. I want to hold your hand. When did you guys hear that for the first time? I had a transistor radio, those don't exist anymore. You carried around this little box and I heard that there was some new phenomenon called the Beatles in England. And at that time in most of the pop charts were things like. Blue, navy, blue, I'm as blue as I can be. And all of a sudden I heard this thing coming out that I thought was going to birth the speaker. And I was like, that has to be the Beatles. It has to be. It's like nothing else that was on the radio. It couldn't be contained by this little speaker. That was the Beatles and then I just waited for Ed Sullivan which was a show that was on Sunday nights 8pm. He was the first person to bring the Beatles to the States. And I was absolutely mesmerized. I just watched it. I mean I had seen Elvis and Eddie Cochran and all these people who led up to the Beatles. But the Beatles, that was a game changer for me. You were waiting for that moment. Well that's when it hit me, the Ed Sullivan show, before that I hadn't heard of it. Blue, navy, blue, Diana, Renee. Yes. And Norman, written by John D. Lautermelk, sung by. Wait a minute. Norman, ooh, Norman, Norman, I love, Sue Thompson. Absolutely, there you go. Joey asked me for a date. He wanted to take me out to skate. I told Joey I would have to make rangements, not a rangement. Rangements, with Norman. Norman is my only one, blah, blah, blah. So that's the shit that was on the radio. Prior to the Beatles, the Beatles were like a smack in the face and a wake-up call of what rock and roll could be. Was there stuff that you guys liked, though, before the Beatles that you would hear? That would do. I did. I cut my teeth on Chubby Checker. Oh my God. Yeah. So good. I'm all everybody. I want the twist contest at PS145. Also before Chubby Checker was Hank Ballard. You saw him. And Hank Ballard. And the Midnighters. They were the template for Chubby Checker. It sounds just like him. And they did. The original twist. Come on, baby. Oh, yes, I do. Look at me. Oh. Sounds just the same. And then Ernest Evans comes along. And since we had Fats Domino, Dick Clark thought he resembled him somewhat. And that gave way to Chubby Checker. Fats Domino. Chubby Checker. On Camille Parkway Records, written and produced by Kalman and David Pell, don't fuck around. We know all this stuff. Good names. Good artist names. Well, Fats Waller and in the blues you had blind lemon, you know, you had all those kinds. Very colorful names. You were very descriptive names. You also had that in the mob, you know, very descriptive names. Same names. Fats Domino was also a mob. There you go. Probably. Oh, come on, come on, we covered him. I know. Castamets. Castamets. So Strings, Jack Nietzsche, did Strings and you had just multitudes of players. You would have two or three guitar players, a couple of bass players, timpani players. That was the crystals during then she kissed me. Phil Specter. Phil Specter. Yeah. And everybody knows even today, you know, the Christmas album, the Phil Specter, Christmas album. So he created a sound, the wall of sound that so many people after that. There's actually another group, The Walker Brothers that copied that sound and Phil Specter man. God bless. And you know, make it easy on yourself? And make it easy on yourself, and make it easy on yourself and at a hit with it. I didn't know that. Cherry Bucket. And make it easy on yourself, make it easy on yourself. Sounds. Yes. And it's fantastic. So it's not wall of sound, but there's elements that you're borrowing. But at its core is this song, it's brilliant. It's a great song. And somehow we manage to fuck it up, you know. Really, you know, there's certain things that can be redone. And given their own twist, so to speak. And then there's us doing, then she kissed me, which, you know, it was misbegotten. Well, I got to tell you the interesting cultural reflection of the times is, I want to hold your hand. That's it. Don't you want to mount me in public or say, no, no, I want to hold your hand or he walked up to me and asked me if I wanted to dance. So it was so, I mean, we all did the same thing that mammals do in ever since we crawled out of caves, but there was an etiquette, but there's this implied, there's this implied that almost makes it more, scintillating this implied sexuality. Oh, you know, when I first heard the sherels, will you still love me tomorrow? Will you still love me tomorrow? The idea of that song basically is if I give, if I spend the night with you, are you going to still love me tomorrow? But it was done in a romantic kind of way and a lot of, a lot of those songs as, as teenagers had this romantic side to them that it wasn't blatant. So Carol King was, I believe, Carol Klein, originally Niel Sedacas girlfriend and his first it was old Carol, written after Carol King, Carol Klein. 19 when she wrote, will you still love me tomorrow? Yeah. Amazing. Jerry Goffin, Carol King. And a mom too. We had the baby in the studio with her. Well, wait, what's that story? She and Jerry had had a baby and they were still, they would go up to the bril building. She'd be at the piano and the baby would be in the bassinet and she's writing, banging out at 19. What you were competing with people in the other booths, you know, Don Kirschner, Scree-Gems, all these people had Barry Man and Cynthia Will. They're writing, you've lost that love and feelin'. Then Carol King and Jerry Goffin have to come up with a sequel. And Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry are coming up with the next. So it was a lot of competition. They're just in the hallway down from each other. Right down. The amount of great songs by just a group of people in such a short time is unbelievable. What was that for you guys? Was there, were there sort of people that were in parallel to you that you felt like this band is great? They're putting pressure. We got to write a better song or is there anything like that or did you feel very much like you were in your own universe? I think we always understood that the most important thing is the song. You can put smoke bombs, you can have lasers and everything else. But you have to start with a song. And I think our heroes, my heroes were songwriters, the Brill building. Those were the people that I aspired to be like. When I was 15, I was at the Brill building or in 1650 Broadway with my guitar and whoever would listen to my songs, God bless them. The most important thing to me was not a song as a vehicle to jam on. It had to have an intro of verse, a bridge, a chorus, a hook. It was called a hook because it grabbed you. So there wasn't other bands. per se other than obviously the Beatles and there were bands other than them but the Beatles really were the the ultimate in terms of material. Still are. By the way come on the intro very similar to the NAS that had their own song. Yes we're Todd Rungren's group in Philadelphia very similar called Open My Eyes but can't explain. Come on I mean it's the whole string. After they were originally the the high numbers and they became the who and led the whole mod scene. Awesome. I saw I actually saw the who in 60 69 where Bill Maurice Wow and Roger Dahltree I stole it from him no no no you know secret he would swing that microphone and I was in the balcony I swear it almost hit me I mean so yeah I just go hell I'm I'm gonna do this and don't try it at home because you'll strangle yourself. Actually one of the guys the lead singer in the Scorpions decided to try that you know he saw me wrap the cord around my neck and then swing it the other way and he's on stage God damn it I'm I'm choking. You get the German accent that little German. That's the best part. Yeah Shysa they were probably watching you guys and listening to you guys and saying like let's let's bring that energy over here. Let's let's be clear and honest about this there's not bad out there that includes the Beatles or Elvis or anybody who didn't look behind them and pick up bits and pieces to make up their own kind of puzzle but just like chefs use the same ingredients as the hot dog guy on the corner it's just how you use it to make your own conconction so everybody all there unique they're about yes you've got that unique sound then when you look into it you see the subatomic pieces from oh that's a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Is it a true story that when you guys first started your studio records almost got outshined by some of your live oh totally records and that's what catapulted you guys to another level what do you think that is well because what we were doing live was so full of adrenaline and passion it was almost like going to a evangelical church of rock and roll but our first three albums were very tame sounding not because we wanted it but because we didn't know how to make them sound like we sounded live it wasn't until kiss alive that the floodgates just broke open we did three albums those first three albums were done in 18 months because we wanted to succeed and beautifully kept trying to capture what was live and once we put out kiss alive 500,000 a million two million it just took us to the heights that we spent the next 50 years at but you know this neighborhood isn't alien to us we recorded our demos and our electric lady studios just a few blocks from here and our first show was in a loft 52 bleaker street where they moved machinery it was a factory during the daytime the machinery out we didn't have roadies or anything so Peter knew Peter Chris our drummer knew a printer downtown we'd have posters printed up and Paul and I and some of the other guys would go around at night when nobody was looking and put up posters promoting ourselves I mean these are our stomping grounds we're both from Queens uh bass i jackson heights where's your far stills yeah flushing q garden what a great name for a place to live huh yeah what a toy no where are you from it's really nice my dad's your base side oh cool yeah base height high at that same time there was so much better life than on record yeah when that album came out I was first I hated the cover yeah because they looked like housewives on the cover and live man they just exuded this plan boy and glittery rock and roll look they weren't the best band in the world but they really put it across they were stars we would see them in New York they show up late they'd never be on time they tell jokes on stage there was a camaraderie about them and that that's I think would you look for in bands is boy I wish I was a member of that club yeah you know you see these people interacting on stage and the dolls they were they were the club that every other band and everybody in the audience want to be actually did some shows together didn't last long we opened for them because they were around about a year before we were we didn't last long I think we may have done three shows together that's it and then after that we exploded and the dolls did not I remember actually being at the um crystal room which was at the hotel diplomat where everybody did shows off-time square and I ran into Sylvain and I said to him innocently but I I had all three terrier motives I said we should do some shows we should play together and he said you'd kill us you know so he was pretty sharp sadly David Johansson passed recently yeah I'm curious why a guy who's as young as you're what are you 12 years old now how come you know this stuff I'm 35 yeah so I know why do you know this and I know this because of being in this neighborhood we're right around the corner from CBGB doing this show maxes close to here talking to people with more no CBGBs I even back then I know that they play a different kind of rock yeah then the rock that I like it's not anglophile rock with better musicians and it was like college rock yeah yeah long lane time the lane god television yes yeah it never connected to me but Maxes was Maxes was sexy rock star rock and Maxes was more a fashion show and the dolls and people like that wrote the soundtrack for the fashion show but we actually saw a great band there and went up taking them on tour we saw a band called cheap trick and we took them on tour with us because they were great while everybody else was hanging out at maxes or the Mercer Art Center or CBGBs we were rehearsing we were the black sheep of the black sheep so to answer your question why I know this stuff is being in this neighborhood and doing this show and sort of researching music history what I think is particularly interesting is this period of time for music in New York City there was so much happening but so many of these bands didn't make it and you guys come out of it I think what happened was what so many of these bands were doing had no relevance or connection to middle America yeah if you weren't in a big city it was it almost like an inside joke that you had to know whereas what we were doing we were anglophiles we loved bands we loved slayed we loved the stones the who all these people and I think what we were doing was much more universal it wasn't designed for a small clique of an area the dolls were very very much a New York band and when you went into Ohio or into Indiana it it was lost it was completely lost we were going for something much more universal middle America gave you Kansas and Sticks and you know a lot of bands that had successes but when you look at them they didn't get the stage craft there was a guy with a rabbi length beard playing a violin and a band you kind of you go gee I like that song then when you see them live it just didn't connect like these are rock stars no they weren't rock stars there were musicians and wrote good songs so you could you know great bands like dooby brothers and stuff like that but when you saw an English band if you saw the who live with the fringe jacket all that stuff you go that's what a rock star looks like not a guy with a beard playing a violin another one that's just here not at all right like typical yeah I mean you have blue reading you have the velvet underground and it just went over the heads of most people it was very much suburban it was it was it had its home but people once again didn't relate and quite honestly it was more poetry than it was music I mean as far as music it sucked I'm sorry you know if you want to listen to Rimbo you know put to music or something like that or Kerrowak great but the music sucked and that was the downfall of a lot of the bands that we're going to at that point. They were art. Tom Berlaine and television. It was art, but you know, it's not enough to say something. You have to play something. What about the Stooges? You know, again, we did a show or two with the Stooges and it's great to have commitment to what you're doing, but you need songs. I prepared the MC5. I thought the MC5. He got the jam. Oh, man. They and live. They were fiery. I think both agree. You cannot downgrade or say anything negative about Iggy's stage craft. Yeah. His physicality on stage was unique. The peanut butter and the jumping on the broken glass. But as soon as he went out on stage, you forgot about the rest of the band. By the way, you forgot about the songs. It's not about the song. The Stooges, when I saw a photo of them, I want to hear these guys or when I saw the cover of raw power or whatever. Wow, that's amazing. I found a lot of that disappointing. You know, it was heartfelt and they loved what they were doing, but it's kind of like the whole punk movement to me. It's great to have something you want to say, but it would also be great to play your instrument well. Remotes? I have mixed feelings because, by the way, we were on a Ramones tribute record and you ran into one of the guys, Marky. No, Johnny lived right down the street for me. So he had said to me, "You know, we're doing this tribute album, and would you guys do it?" And you know, would you do rock and roll radio? And we went in and Pat us on the back. We did a kick-ass version and he said to me, "That's the way we wish we could have done it." So, Ramones? Yeah, I think interesting, kind of like a dichotomy. Interesting that when Johnny, when the Ramones broke up, Johnny never picked up a guitar again, never picked up a guitar. The last Ramones show was the last time he picked up a guitar. I agree with the notion of the people, for the people, by the people. So, the Ramones get so much more credibility than, let's say, Chicago. But it's worth noting, good, bad, or otherwise, the masses didn't get it. They never played big arenas, never played stadiums. And the songs, I think they may have one gold record that Phil Spector did won out of the entire career. Chicago, you can hate him or not, had 22 platinum records in a row. In a row. Nope, you don't care who's in the band and all that. And it comes down to songs. I love a lot of the punk bands and everything. But the energy, it wasn't the tunes. And then there are bands that don't look like rock stars, steely-down with amazing songs, but live, you know, it's disappointing. So, it's difficult to find bands other than English bands who have it both. When you see Led Zeppelin onstage, the riffs are undeniable and they look like rock gods. And that's the complete package. American bands never had the complete package. One last comment, although I hate to stop because I love the sound of my own voice. And that is out of New York, there's no other band of any style of music that ever got as big as we had. None ever played stadiums. None got even close, but people talk about the remote-talking heads TV and a lot of other ones. Of the people, for the people, by the people. They decide elections and they decide who rises to the top echelons. Of the people, for the people, by this people. What did I say? No, by this people. Come on. Oh, my God. People think, let's see, newer version. No, it's not. It proves the point that when you have the gods, when you have the songwriting, a new band can cover the stuff and get hits with it. Except to your point, it was a carbon copy. It was, it came as close as possible, but there's nothing like Slade. I mean, we had Slade do some shows with us. And I first saw Slade at the Academy of Music on 14th Street. Absolutely mind-boggling. Notty Holder was like a fog horn. That voice was just crazy. And when I saw him, he was wearing a top hat with mirrors all around it. And when the spotlights hit it, beams went out and I went, that's so cool. Why don't I get a guitar and put fractured mirrors all over the front? And sure enough, that's, you know, this famous crack mirror guitar that I use was because Nadi had that hat. Slade. Interestingly, the lead songwriter in the band was not the guitar player. It was Jim Lea. It was Jim Lea, the bass player. Who was a violin player? Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like lightning. Everybody was lightning. The music was soothing. That's just saying, that's sweet. Guinean was influenced by sweet. There's a lot of sweet songs with those incredible harmonies. And they were just chiny chap. The Mike Chapman and Nikki Chin were the guys who wrote the songs and produced most of the sweet hits until they went off and did love as like oxygen later on in their career. But they were, you know, they were fantastic. But they, they didn't tour America enough. And that's why they didn't become as big. Those songs were undeniable. They were covered. People covered them. Even later on, they had a quiet period. They came back with love as like oxygen. And a few other things. The songwriting was solid. They looked great. The musicianship was great. But there's an undeniable difference in the look, especially in the look and the sound of English bands versus American bands. You could have head east or any Midwestern band who could sell records and everything. Then you looked at the English bands and it was undeniable. Mark Vaughan originally Mark Felt. He originally had Taranosaurus Rex, which was more an acoustic guitar. And I can't remember the the bongo players, the percussionist. And after that it became Terex. And the background singers are Howie Kaelin and Mark Vaughan, known as the fluorescent leech and eddie. Those high voices. And before that they were in the turtles. But Mark Vaughan, I mean Terex, we had Terex on a show with us in Chicago at the Aragon Ballroom. When he was a little past his prime and he had a star that he laid down on and it brought him up. Again, there's no disputing the swagger and the clothes and the vibe that all these people gave off. Would you rather listen to that or the grateful dead? Sorry, but I'll go with Terex for ten points. But also the choice when you listen to Banger Gong. Nobody has a clue what Banger Gong means. Who cares? They're cool words. You know, there's that slight sexuality and stuff, but you don't care what it means. It just sounds cool. But also the decision not to make big guitars, but you know, they're just very slight kind of in the groove. Swagger. What's the most important instrument in a rock and roll band? Oh, it's guitar. Guitar. Guitar is the messenger of rock and roll. Whether it was Eddie Cochran or Elvis Presley or any of their backup musicians, the guitar is the messenger of rock and roll. Bass. Yeah, bass is just a version of guitar, I guess. Bass is part of the foundation, but I venture to say that the guitar leads everything. By the way, I don't think a good guitar player means you can fly, excuse me, fly across a fretboard. You've got to be able to hum or remember what you played. Clapton before he, so hold out, sorry, I had a cough. In the beginning, Clapton was called Clapton as God, you know, crossroads where you can remember every lick he had. It was a melody you remembered. And in those days, he actually had a quote that he used to call Clapton as God. And his quote was, it's more important, something like it's more important to know what notes to leave out than to put into a solo. It's not about how many notes. So sunshine of your love, I can hum you, sing it, you want to sing along. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do the great solos are ones that are melodic ones that you can actually sing. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it ♪ Smoky and the miracles, I mean it's amazing, this guy Smoky Robinson came out of the projects in Detroit and on the tears of a clown and another song, he sings about Pagliacci. Just like Pagliacci did, I try to keep my sadness hid. He was so poignant in lyrics, his melodies, with my soul station band. I covered the song. ♪ I look at my face and see my smile looks at me ♪ Moatown was so important, I think, to a lot of us, and the Beatles, I mean, please, Mr. Postman, all these songs. The roots of so much rock and roll is the sound of Teenage America, Tamla Moatown. Yeah, they're the best. That's who the Beatles really can say. Oh my gosh, yeah. Let's go here. All right, last song. And this one is really in honor of New York Knicks. ♪ You better believe I'm back in New York Knicks ♪ Russ Ballet wrote it. Yes, there's an original version that's exact copy of it. It was Eddie Kramer, who produced and engineered some of our records, who worked with Asa on that, and he was the one that suggested, covered the song. Asa didn't want to do it. Yeah. If you can play that original version, it'd be interesting to hear. It's very similar. Not as good though. They didn't have that, they didn't have that kiss. He swaggered to it. Sometimes it's just finding the right song to say. Now we can do a great vehicle for a performer or a singer, and that song is ace. Yeah, I mean. And also talking about the New York rules, ace is New York. And what's happening tomorrow? Songwriter's Hall of Fame. Congratulations. Well deserved. We're going to go to find out who's being in the doctor. Oh, we're being abducted in the hall. It's amazing, you know, because again, you can have lasers and smoke bombs and everything else, but you've got to have a song. And the center. You know, without a song, you've got nothing. And we grew up loving song writers and the craft. Anybody can write a song. There's enough of that out there, but it doesn't make your songwriter. And it's something that we emulated and to be embraced by your contemporaries and by your peers and by the people who are up there. It's humbling. But I say at this point in my life, if you love me, let me know now. Don't put it in my, no, don't put it in my obituary. Don't put it in a eulogy. Let me know. Come on. Love me. Let me hear it. Love you. Oh, awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Tracks our podcast is a presentation of Public Opinion created by me, Jack Coyne, Kirin Coyne and Henry Coyne Aros, produced by Haley Sobel, edited by Ryan Bergens, theme and original composition by Kirin Coyne, mixing by Devin Klein. Our agent is Joanne Orland at UTA. Thanks for listening. See you next Wednesday.