King Trump Welcomes King Charles

Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change, your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. Picture this, you're with your spouse at a seaside botanical garden. The moss hangs low, but your spirits are high. And you've never felt more in love. This is when it hits you, that Myrtle moment. It's the second everything clicks. When you realize Myrtle Beach is more than a getaway. It's right where you belong. Don't just daydream about it. Find your own Myrtle moment at visitmyrtlebeach.com. Welcome back to Pod Save the World, I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Ritz. So Ben, I genuinely thought Trump might stage some sort of like dramatic military operation for the day after his White House Correspondents speech to match the 2011 Obama bin Laden operation weekend. I didn't see this coming. No. Not that it was staged. No. But it was bad. But it was dramatic. I. But it was bad. It was bad. First of all, it's always bad. Violence is bad. Violence is bad. Don't you hate? I'm feeling like you have to like always repeat that line. Yeah. It's like, no shit, it's bad. When was it ever not bad? And by the way, you're just, it's just, it's idiotic, it's wrong, and it doesn't do anything to help what that guy seemed to say he cared about. No, it's going to help Trump politically. I did think that, I'm just going to go there, Tommy, like the, this is not a Trump point, actually. You and I have been to that dinner a lot of times, and I feel bad that that was like a unsettling, potentially scary situation. It is also the case that that ballroom is like that, like a football field walk down a densely carpeted hotel room, past magnometers, down a flight of stairs or an escalator into a heavily secured cavernous ballroom. And so let's just say some of the media is putting itself at the center of this as if they survived, like, you know, the battle of the bulge was, that was the part of the discourse that, I mean, yes, I expect the Republicans to cynically blame Jimmy Kimmel or whatever, and that's always frustrating, but like the number of people that acted like they just went through, you know, like literally the battle of the bulge here was that much to me. Look, I don't blame the reporters for being scared. I would be scared shitless if all of a sudden there's gunshots going off. But like the Republicans who were trying to compare what happened over the last weekend to Butler, like that's a crazy comparison. A bullet hit his ear. Yeah. As you said, this guy was nowhere near. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't to the max. Yeah. If he'd done this thing like 30 minutes earlier, he might have had a lot of people in range to fire at. You never know. That's the scary, like, scenario. Well, this guy clearly had no idea what he was doing. I mean, look, there are serious questions, actually, that are interesting about why there keep being these kind of security breaches, close calls. Yeah. By the way, there were a bunch in the Obama years. Bullets hit the White House. Bullets hit the Truman balcony. Didn't someone throw a grenade, like, it got pretty close to Trump or to Bush at one point, too? This event, we should just say, is not a very secure event. No. It actually is in the ballroom. I guess from the Secret Service standpoint, they secured that ballroom. That's where the president's going to be, right? Right. The president doesn't walk in through the mags. He comes in through, like, an underground parking garage or something and is suddenly in a secure ballroom. But the Capitol Hilton is this gigantic complex that anybody staying there, like, they don't have to be attached to the dinner. They can wander through the lobby. And there's all those, like, little sub-parties on the exterior wing. I'm not sure that this event, like, this event is already past its expiration date. Oh, yeah, it's cursed. And now it's, like, this is another point that, like, maybe don't have this event at this big, non-secure hotel where lunatics can walk in off the street. And, yeah, you may secure the ballroom, but somebody could get that Secret Service agent. You know, thank God there was a bulletproof vest. Yeah, it's weird. By the way, thank you, everyone, who subscribed to Pod Save the World on YouTube or wherever you get the show. We solemnly pledge to you. To never attend the White House Correspondents' Dinner. And also, if we do, and there is an incident, we will point the camera at word. At word, yeah. We will show you what's happening. Not our old-ass faces. Real quick, are the Red Sox worse than the Mets? I think the Mets are worse. We just fired, like, our entire staff. The Mets have scored two runs or less in, I think, more than half their games and have nine wins. Okay, so bad. And the biggest payroll in Major League Baseball. That's bad. Somehow that happened. That's really bad. Speaking of bad, do you see Trump's going to put his own face? On the U.S. passport, maybe? I do not. Yeah. I'm going to check. I carry around a passport wallet in case I need to flee at any moment. And I'm going to check my expiration date. Mine's coming up. Shit. And it looks like mine extends past the Trump administration. Okay. So I do not have to get a Donald Trump passport. Okay, you're good to go. That's some live podcasting. That's good. That's hopeful for everybody. So, great show today. We're going to start with the peace talks or lack thereof between the U.S. and Iran. What the end game is. What the end game for this war might actually look like. We're going to talk about the latest data about the global economic impact and then more data and concern about the dwindling U.S. munitions stockpiles. We'll also cover Vice President J.D. Vance's very subtle attempts to spin and duck accountability for this war. Have you caught this at all? Have you seen any of this? Are you kidding? I delight in it. This is what the algorithm's feeding me. It's not giving me the White House Correspondent Center. It's giving me like J.D. Vance. It's so funny. I talked to some MAGA people when I was in D.C. last weekend. They were all remarking on how brazen Vance is spinning and all the others around Trump are spinning how opposed they were to this war. We'll get to it. We'll also cover the latest from Lebanon. Then we're going to talk about King Charles's trip to the U.S., the highlights, the lowlights, the bizarre sexual innuendo, his speech to a joint session of Congress, which is actually kind of funny. Then we're going to talk about the spiraling security situation in Mali after the government came under attack from an al-Qaeda-linked terrorist group over the weekend. We're going to share with you some more examples of egregious corruption. of U.S. foreign policy because it's an endless story. And finally, a wild story about CIA operations in Mexico. Got drug cartels. There was a tragic car accident. Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum's kind of delicate balance between sovereignty and nationalism and dealing with Donald Trump. So very fun for her. And then, Ben, you did an interview today. What did you talk about? I did. There's a group called D-Hub Democracy Hub that is releasing an anti-authoritarian toolkit. This is an effort to learn from activists around the world about what's working. And the fight against authoritarianism. So I took two people, actually my friends, Federica and Nick, who are both activists themselves, who helped put this together. You know, we talked about the value of this kind of exercise, how they went about it. Some of the lessons about how to do social media better, how to have networks of influencers, how to kind of mobilize people, how to do a kind of distributed form of organizing where you're not trying to control the message everywhere, but you're trying to give people enough guidance that they're coordinated, but enough freedom that they can run campaigns, that make sense where they are. So lessons learned that can be applied around the world for how to fight authoritarianism. Got to give them the D-Hub. Dictators. Excellent. Definitely going to check that out. All right, let's start with Iran. So this U.S.-Iran ceasefire, it's kind of holding, right? But there's 900 pounds of highly enriched uranium still sitting in Iran. The Strait of Hormuz is closed. Huge parts of the global economy are just paralyzed, and there's seemingly no end in sight. Other than that, it's good. On Saturday, Trump canceled his negotiating team strategy. A trip to Pakistan. We're going to listen to a clip from him explaining why. Probably heard that we canceled the trip. We have all the cards. We're not going to spend 15 hours in airplanes all the time going back and forth to be giving a document that was not good enough. And so we'll deal by telephone, and they can call us anytime they want. Again, we have all the cards. They have no military left, practically. They have no leaders left. We don't know who the leaders are. Nobody knows who the leaders are. I don't know. They know who the leaders are, very importantly. We're not going to be traveling 15, 16 hours to have a meeting with people that nobody ever heard of. Traveling takes too long, too expensive. I'm a very cost-conscious person. They are fighting with each other. There's tremendous infighting. They're probably fighting for leadership. In many cases, I think they're fighting not to be the leader, because we knocked out two levels of leaders. But I'll deal with whoever we have to. Interestingly, immediately when I canceled it, with intention. Ten minutes, we got a new paper that was much better. They offered a lot, but not enough. I love this idea that the cost we're all worried about is like J.D. Vance's Ryanair ticket to Islamabad. Axios reported that Iran has offered a more limited deal. Maybe that was referencing there. That would reopen the Strait of Hormuz if the U.S. ends the blockade and ends the war. It punts all the nuclear talks down the road. That's nothing. It feels like a problem. I suspect this is going to be the kind of deal Trump ends up being forced to take. But interestingly, Secretary of State. Marco Rubio came out of his post-Iran war hiding wherever his witness protection program he's been in since he went to the sticks on Capitol Hill and was like, Israel made us do it and then ran away and didn't speak again for a month. But here he is on Fox News kind of shitting on the kind of deal we just described. Let's watch. And what they mean by opening the straits is, yes, the straits are open as long as you coordinate with Iran, get our permission or we'll blow you up and you pay us. That's not opening the straits. Those are international waterways. They cannot normalize, nor can we tolerate. I'm trying to normalize a system in which the Iranians decide who gets to use an international waterway and how. much you have to pay them to use it. The Straits is basically the equivalent of an economic nuclear weapon that they're trying to use against the world. And they're bragging about it. Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. That's correct. Yep. Seems like they're doing it. Guess what? They weren't doing that before the fucking war. Yeah. Also, it sounds like they have a lot of cards as described by Marco Rubio. So Ben, as we all know, there's nothing better in life than when you have like shitty plans, like some shitty dinner and it gets canceled. So Iranian informant Sir Abbas Arachi, he used that time he got back to fly to Russia. He went to see Vladimir Putin. He told Russian state media that Iran is, quote, standing up to the world's greatest superpower and that the U.S. has a request to talk because it has, quote, not achieved a single one of their goals and that Iran is considering whatever they put forward. Putin said, quote, we'll do everything that serves your interests and the interests of all the people in the region in order to ensure that this peace is achieved as soon as possible. Also, I'm sure you caught Ben, the German Chancellor Friedrich Merz weighed in saying that, quote, an entire nation is being humiliated by the Iranian leadership, especially by the so-called revolutionary guards, that nation being ours. On Tuesday, Trump posted this weird message on Truth Social. He said, quote, Iran has just informed us that they are in a state of collapse. They want us to open the Hormuz trade as soon as possible as they try to figure out their leadership situation, which I believe they'll be able to do. I love the idea of some Iranian official is calling Trump being like, uncle, sir, you did it. You got us. I think that message was sent one minute before the stock market opened. So congrats to everybody who had some futures trades put down. So, Ben, two things. I'm curious what you make of Arachi's trip to see Putin in the Russian role, like Russia could be trying to facilitate a deal. Putin could be trying to sell some weapons. Either way, he seems to be saying, I'm here. I'm a player in this. You got to deal with me, too. And then on the end game, like the Trump administration seems to think that their leverage is keeping the blockade in place long enough so that Iran runs out of storage for its oil and basically has to shut down its wells and kill off its own industry. It's not clear how long that would take, how much storage capacity they have left. And ultimately, this is a game of economic chicken that will crush Asian economies, poor countries, the Iranian people, but probably won't matter to the IRGC because they will enforce their will at gunpoint. So I don't know. I don't get it. But what do you make of this play? I think we just have to name because sometimes our media is incapable of doing this. What a complete abject fucking failure, catastrophic decision this was by Donald Trump and that he can't spin his way out of that. On the eve of the war, he was talking about regime change and destruction of the nuclear program entirely and getting the Iranian people rising up. None of these things have happened. And we want to pick the next Supreme Leader. He said, you know, Goliboff, the Speaker of the Parliament, he remember we were describing him as hot, you know, just like America's hot, you know, like he's a hot option that he clearly has decided because he's been so humiliated and he's failed so miserably and was led down a rabbit hole by Bibi Netanyahu that was so destructive. He's just trying to grasp. This is a man, Donald Trump, that like 10 days ago we did an emergency podcast because he told the world that there was a deal and that the straits were open forever and they were going to get rid of the dust and all these things. None of that was true. And so like it's hard to even now he's clearly decided that his narrative is going to be their leadership is so disrupted. They don't know he's in charge. The foreign minister is the same fucking foreign minister that was meeting with Witkoff and Jared before the war. And he's in Russia. How is this guy saying that there was regime change when Abbas Arachi is literally the same guy showing up representing the same regime with the supreme leader's son? And then they start dunk on how hurt he is. Well, he's the fucking supreme leader and he's 30 years younger than his father was. And then the IRGC is calling the shots. And even little Marco has to acknowledge that they're running straight for moves. So we need to just create some space to just this is not sane. This is failing right now. Let's move on. Like what happens now? I think you're right. This is hurting everybody at this point. Like it's hurting the United States. Like it is hurting our economy. It's hurting the Iranian people. It's hurting the global economy. Everybody wants out of this war. And the question is, who is just going to decide that they can spin like Iran won this war, like the IRGC, like the status quo ante now controls the Strait of Hormuz. And if the big concession they have to make to end the war is opening up an international waterway that was open before the war. Like I think that they take that position. Donald Trump is just trying to figure out how to spin his way out of it, that it's a win, even if he doesn't get them to like make a whole bunch of concessions to the negotiating table. And if you look at Putin, he can smell that this is a humiliation of the United States. He's trying to insert himself into this. He's trying to kind of play the role of peacemaker. Trump is the crazy man who starts wars. Do you see that the Russian, some Russian super yacht worth like half a billion dollars just kind of cruise through the Strait of Hormuz this week or this weekend? Yeah. No, IRGC left it alone. Yeah. Putin's flexing. This is Putin and Xi are like, oh, we're going to win. We're going to win. We're going to win. We're going to win. They're looking at this and they're like, this is going to have geopolitical reverberations for a generation. The Gulf countries are splitting apart and hedging and going to move in the direction of Russia and China. The Iranians like they're, you know, they're they're closest ally in the region now controls the Strait. That's, you know, Russia and China want that waterway open. So like I think they're probably telling the Iranians like, hey, can we wrap this thing up? But at the same time, they're going to be thinking about how can we take advantage of the fact that the United States was just revealed to be incapable. Of collapsing the Iranian regime with military power. Yeah. Well, yeah. When your opponent shoots himself in the foot, it's a good time for a road race. Yeah. So the Axios, a couple of like data points to back up what you were just saying. Axios has a report out this week that Trump aides are concerned. He's getting drawn into a frozen conflict where the U.S. will just be forced to keep a ton of military assets in the Middle East to enforce this blockade while the Strait of Hormuz stays closed for months and harms the global economy. Like, yeah, guys, yeah, that's what's happening. Reuters had a report that the U.S. intel agencies are studying how Iran would respond to a military attack. And they're like, yeah, we're going to have a military attack. If Trump just declared a unilateral victory, I think what's going to happen, definitely what's going to happen. And I think they want to know if like these guys will kind of walk away and let it be or if they're going to dunk all over him. I guess we'll find out. Meanwhile, I mean, the economic cost is going up. So gas prices on Tuesday in the U.S. rose to their highest level in four years. So the average gallon is now 418. But outside the U.S., as we've talked about many times, the economic impact is massive. So some data points in China, car sales are down. The cost of plastics are up because they're a petroleum based industry. And they're going to have to pay for a lot of and that has led to factories shutting down. People are out of work. There's been riots. According to the Financial Times, the IMF forecast that the economies of Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will contract this year, the latter by up to 8.6 percent, while growth in Saudi Arabia and the UAE will slow but remain at about 3 percent. The U.S. might have to provide the UAE with a currency swap line to help them bail out of some financial difficulties. There's cooking oil shortages in India. Interest rates are going up around the globe. The world's largest condom maker is in increasing prices by 30 percent because of supply chain issues. And then today, Ben, the UAE announced it would be leaving OPEC, the oil cartel. So the UAE is the third largest producer in OPEC. It's going to leave OPEC with 13 percent less capacity. I think this is probably less of an economic impact than just sort of like another sign of the UAE and Saudi Arabia splitting on a bunch of stuff and the reshuffling of alliances that you were just hinting at. But what did you make of that move from the Emiratis? So I think like the global economic fallout is going to be profound and long lasting and is going to lead to this continued hedging that countries are doing. How can I protect myself against the United States? Like first it was tariffs and now it's this war. Like how can I have supply chains that are more secure and not vulnerable to like some crazy thing Donald Trump might do? And so that every country is going to make their own calculation. Now, the UAE one is really interesting. So OPEC has generally been this cartel of major oil producers. That produces about a quarter of the world's fossil fuel energy. And the Saudis have generally called the shots. And the Saudis like to keep prices high because it keeps their coffers filled. The UAE has a more diversified economy. And therefore, they care less about necessarily like keeping the price at a certain point. They want to produce more. They would like to expand to more markets. They want to get the most out of, by the way, oil while they can because they see the writing on the wall down the line. Right. It's going to be a clean energy economy. So they have some short term interests in having some freedom of action. But the main thing I think that's happening here is that the Emiratis, like the leader of the UAE is Mohammed bin Zayed. He used to be super tight with MBS, Mohammed bin Salman. They've had a massive falling out that we've talked about in the last couple of years. It's manifested in almost the two militaries that went to war together in Yemen, fighting each other in Yemen. They're backing different sides of the Sudan civil war. The Emiratis are kind of all in. Same with the Abraham Accords and the Israelis and much more, you know, hawkish on Iran. The Saudis, no fans of the Iranians, but, you know, have been a little bit more hedged. Right. And so I see this as a personal thought between MBS and MBZ that is fascinating. If anybody could ever make the, you know, like a Netflix show about those guys falling out, I'd watch that. But it's also this kind of geopolitical splitting, like the Gulf states tried to project this kind of unified front through the Gulf Cooperation Council, the GCC. And that, you know, that's Qatar, UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain. They're now moving in different directions. And again, it mirrors what's going to happen globally where every nation is just going to increasingly in this kind of crazy, dangerous, nationalist, transactional world kind of look out for itself. The Emiratis want to like, you know, produce more, sell without having to like check it through OPEC. The Saudis are trying to kind of keep prices up to fund MBS's Vision 2030 and all these things. Some fake city somewhere, yeah. Soccer teams. It's emblematic of an unraveling set of global arrangements. I think that the Iran war will be seen from history as a massive accelerant on the unraveling of all these different institutions and ways of doing things. And part of that unraveling are institutions or the belief from other countries that the U.S. can or will protect them. Yeah. And now there's increasing data about concern that the U.S. can't protect itself because of these munition shortages we've talked about in the wake of these repeated conflicts with Iran. So there's some more data on this. The Center for Strategic and International Studies, or CSIS, they released a report that walked through some numbers. Then there was some great reporting. It was first Alex Ward at the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times added to it. The major concern is not that we're going to run out of bullets in this war. It's about the next war, especially if there's one with China. For example, let's start with Tomahawk missiles or T-LAMs. These are precision, long-range cruise missiles that usually get fired from ships or submarines that could be as far as 1,500 miles away from the target. The U.S. launched at least 1,000 of them against Iran, which is about 10 times the number of the Pentagon. The Pentagon buys every year for the low, low price of $3.6 million each. It'll take years to replace them at current rates. But also, Ben, they require rare earth elements and other advanced electronic components that China has proven they can choke off. And in previous war games about a conflict between the U.S. and China over Taiwan, they found that the U.S. exhausted supply of Tomahawk missiles in a couple days or weeks. So with the supply already down, that's not good. There is a similar missile, a missile used in similar use cases. It's called the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile. The U.S. has used 23% of that stockpile. These are fired from planes, but they cost, again, $2.6 million each. We fired about 1,000 ATAKOM missiles in this war. Remember, there was a hot debate over whether the U.S. should give Ukraine ATAKOM missiles. So those are offensive weapons. And then again, we're running out of interceptor missiles for missile defense systems. That includes a third of what are called SM-6 interceptors, nearly half of the SM-3 variant, more than 50% of Patriot interceptors. And 80% of THAAD interceptors. That's a lot of jargon and gibberish. Just know that the prices on those bad boys range from $4 million to $28 million a pop, depending on the missile and the variant. Altogether, some U.S. officials told the Wall Street Journal that wholly replacing those stockpiles could take up to six years. So that's a long-term problem that will take a while to fix. And that is apparently one of the things worrying J.D. Vance, who once again dispatched his minions to the Atlantic to. To tell them. Jacob Reese or whatever. is concerned, yeah, some fucker, about the war, from the stockpiles to the accuracy of information Trump is getting from Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon. Again, Ben, I'm just, I'm blown away by how brazen these leaks are. Like, how is this not pissing Trump off? But what do I know? It just shows you that for all the facade of Trump's a genius and we blew up the Iranian Navy or whatever, they know that this war has been a disaster. Because the degree of ass-covering here through leak is, you know, even by Washington standards, it makes you. It makes you blush a little bit. I think when you look at costs, like, I just focus on the practical, literal costs and then the geopolitical costs. On the practical costs, like, these numbers are, these are billions and billions of dollars. Like, that is ACA subsidies that are not going, you know, that's real healthcare that people need. Those are, that's nutrition assistance. That's like, God forbid we ever do get our shit together for, like, a universal basic income. Like, we just spent billions of dollars and are going to have to spend another round of billions of dollars. We're going to have to replace things that Donald Trump and Pete Hexeth could fire off in a six-week excursion. Isn't that what Trump called it? To do nothing other than close the Strait of Hormuz so that you can then try to reopen it again and declare victory. And yeah, we blew up a bunch of Iranian things and we killed an 86-year-old Supreme Leader. But, like, the amount we spent is, like, more than what was once the annual budget of USAID. Yeah. Which did tons of good all around the world. Which we heard that was so wasteful, right? That's a really good analogy. Then I just. I just want to, like, hone in on the geopolitical cost because it ties in what I was saying about countries having to make different decisions. What you'll often hear from the national security types, you know, people that you and I, like, hung out with a lot over the years, that all these munitions, all these systems are really important, you know, in Asia, right, to deal with China and North Korea. And sometimes people hear that and they think, oh, you warmongers, like, you want all these weapons to fight the Chinese. No. They're there as a deterrent. Like, you. You want those weapons in place to prevent a war. You know, so it's like, hey, this looks super scary if you're China and you're thinking about invading Taiwan or you're Kim Jong-un and you're thinking about making a move on South Korea. Like, the Americans have all these fancy systems. We don't want to fuck around with that. Let's just take the one case of South Korea. South Korea is getting hit about as hard as anybody because of shortages, right? They have shortages of petrochemicals. They have shortages of plastics. They have potential disruptions, like, to all manner of different industries from this war. Like, they're suffering economically. Never mind the higher fuel prices. Meanwhile, the country that was their, you know, closest ally, the United States, also moved the missile defense systems that were protecting them from potential North Korean nuclear attacks. Yeah, we yanked the THAAD system. The THAAD. We moved that to the Middle East because we needed that for our Iran war. We moved these other munitions. So, we simultaneously left them more vulnerable to the nutcase, like, chain-smoking autocrat that lives. That lives to their North or to the Chinese and ruined their economy in the process. If you're South Korea, aren't you going to start making some other decisions about maybe you need to cut your own deal with the Chinese or the North Koreans? If you're Taiwan, how are you feeling about, you know, the American security umbrella protecting you against a Chinese invasion? So, this stuff is going to reverberate for years. And Trump can spin and J.D. Vance can leak. It can't change that. Also, when the U.S. put that THAAD system in South Korea in the first place. The Chinese flipped out and they did all this economic retaliation. They essentially banned Chinese tourists from going to South Korea and, like, crushed the tourism business in the entire country. So, yeah. They got screwed on the front end and they got screwed on the back end here. One other just dumb thing, Ben. Do you remember that guy Paolo Zampoli who we talked about a couple weeks ago? He's, like, the old, like, 80s buddy that Trump would, like, hang out with at 54 or whatever. He's, like, some modeling agent. They'd use ICE to deport his wife or his ex-wife or something. Yes. Mother of his child. Good guy. Great guy. Apparently, he has been. He's been recommending that FIFA kick Iran out of the World Cup and put Italy in. Did you see this? I saw this. Because FIFA needed to be further corrupted and politicized. And even the Italians were, like, no, this is completely stupid. What are you talking about? Well, first of all, the Italians flaming out of the World Cup. I mean. Tough. The Italians themselves said, we don't want to, like, get in this way. But also, like, I hate that. Like, FIFA's already debased itself so much. They gave Trump that fake Peace Prize, remember? That corrupt guy who runs FIFA. Did you see this item today that he, like, demanded? He wanted a motorcade in Vancouver as if it was analogous to the Pope or the President. Infantino did? Yeah. He threw a hissy fit because the Canadians wouldn't give him a full motorcade on the scale of, like, the President of the United States or the Pope or something. Anyway, break, break. Part of what I find so disgusting about this is, like, can't sports be, like, the last refuge of, like, just, like, you start politicizing sports this way. Where it's, like, not that it's always been pure. It's not. You did a whole podcast on how corrupt the World Cup is. But the idea that you're literally going to say, like, hey, we don't like the Iranians because Trump decided to go to war with them. So we're kicking them out of the World Cup. And, you know, everybody likes the Italians. So let's put them in there even though they flamed out in the European division. Right. Come on, man. Like, let's watch the World Cup. Like, the Iranian. Even if you hate the Iranian regime, like, the soccer players didn't have anything to do with it. Also, they earned their way on that stage. It's like bad news bears, man. Let them play. Let them play. Finally, Ben, on paper, there is still a ceasefire in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah. But in practice, it's not really a ceasefire. It's more of, like, a de-escalation of the fighting that is still very much ongoing. Just a lower intensity. For example, the Lebanese government said 14 people were killed in Israeli attacks on Sunday alone. An Israeli soldier was announced that he was killed on Sunday. Two more were wounded on Monday. And the IDF has ordered a bunch more communities to evacuate, including ones outside of the current evacuation zone. So the. The war seems to be expanding. The leader of Hezbollah said they would not, quote, relinquish its weapons or defenses, meaning they won't disarm. Listeners also might have heard about the killing of a woman named Amal Khalil. She's a well-known journalist for the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akbar. She was driving with a photojournalist colleague in southern Lebanon. The car in front of them got hit by an Israeli strike. So they took shelter in a nearby building. They were wounded. And they tried to get help. But an hour and a half later, the building they were in was struck again when the Red Cross tried to rescue them. They tried to help her and her colleague. The IDF fired on them, and they were forced to turn back. So Khalil is also reported receiving a death threat that she attributed to the IDF back in 2024. So this is just like. This is one of those incidents that would have been, I think, a global scandal before the war in Gaza. But now it almost feels priced in because the Israelis killed so many Gaza-based journalists that people are almost numb to it. Yeah. I mean, I spent some time with this one because it was so egregious. I mean. I mean. She's a well-known journalist. Very well. And she's trapped under rubble for hours. And the Israelis are literally, like, striking the rescuers trying to get to her. I mean, this is like an assassination. It's indefensible. They know who she is. Like, they have such total surveillance control over that part of Lebanon. They know exactly who she is. She's obviously also wearing press. They murdered this woman in front of the whole world and don't expect any significant outcry beyond people who are already upset about these things. And that's outrageous. You know? I do wish there's a very admirable instinct among U.S. journalists to advocate for journalists in danger around the world, but it's usually journalists endangered inside of geopolitical adversaries in the United States advocating for Venezuelan journalists or Iranian journalists or Russian journalists or certainly any American journalist. But these people are doing the same job as you, and yet you just – and I'm not – some journalists have been outspoken about these things. I'd just like to see more voices raised because this is the worst-case scenario. You're talking about political violence. I mean this is literally saying that like – because some people I saw then say, well, she worked for like a newspaper or media outlet that was sympathetic to Hezbollah. So what? She's a fucking journalist. There's extremist Israeli newspapers tied to like the IDF. You can't kill people. Yeah, I don't like Fox News. I don't think anything like bad should happen to these people. Like this is – that's actually the most deranged possible explanation. I agree. Like so we just now assassinate journalists? So you're admitting you've killed – Yeah. Yeah, it's like what are we talking about here? It was a horrible, horrible story. It reminded me of Shireen Abu-Akla, another famous Palestinian-American journalist who was killed during the Biden administration. And no one did shit about it. And it pisses me off to this day. It pisses me off to this day. Identify obstacles holding you back. Develop a step-by-step plan and turn your goals into a reality. 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Very topical, timely reference. Like a six-inch wallet. Gave you some back problems. Yeah, you have every business card you've ever kept. Some crusty leather brick that was really falling apart. So you basically couldn't open it because otherwise it would just disintegrate. And then your back hurts because you're sitting unevenly. And all of a sudden your spine's ruined. Don't let that happen to you. Ridge wallets have unique, slim, modern designs that hold up to 12 cards plus cash. They're made with premium materials like aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber that come in over 50 or more colors and styles to choose from. All Ridge products have a lifetime warranty. It's literally the last wallet you will ever have to buy. And all Ridge wallets feature RFID blocking technology, protecting you from. And digital pickpockets. Losing your wallet is the absolute worst. But with a Ridge tracker card, you'll always know exactly where it is before panic mode kicks in. 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Then there's a, quote, literary event marking the 100th birthday of the children's character Winnie the Pooh. Really? Yeah. How about that? No word if they'll speak with Prince Harry or victims of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. A lot of calls on Charles to meet with some Epstein victims and talk about his brother maybe, but anyway. So, this all comes, though, as we've discussed, Prime Minister Keir Starmer is under attack from Trump on a daily basis. For not fully backing or participating in the war with Iran. Recently, there was a report about retaliation. There was a leaked memo, Pentagon memo, that was floated. They talked about punishing the U.K. and the refusal to further participate in the war by revoking U.S. support for their possession of the Falkland Islands. It's a very 80s response there. This has also kicked up endless hand-wringing and discussion of the special relationship between the U.S. and the U.K. The Financial Times reported that the U.K.'s ambassador to the U.S. told some students recently, quote, I think there is probably one country that has a special relationship with the United States, and that is probably Israel. Very accurate. He's not wrong. Very accurate. Charles also became the first British king to address a joint session of Congress. His mom, the Queen, did so in 1991. But Trump laid out the distinction in his remarks. Here is some of what he said. With the spirit of 1776 in our minds, we can, perhaps, agree that we do not always agree. As my prime minister said last month, ours is an indispensable partnership. We must not disregard everything that has sustained us for the last 80 years. Instead, we must build on it. In the immediate aftermath of 9-11, NATO invoked Article 5 for the first time, and the United Nations Security Council was united in the speech. In the face of terror, that same unyielding resolve is needed for the defense of Ukraine and her most courageous people. From the depths of the Atlantic to the disastrously melting ice caps of the Arctic, the commitment and expertise of the United States Armed Forces and its allies lie at the heart of NATO. I pray with all my heart that our alliance will continue to defend, our shared values, and that we ignore the clarion calls to become ever more inward-looking. America's words carry weight and meaning as they have since independence. The actions of this great nation matter even more. So, as you can hear there, Charles didn't totally shy away from policy differences on climate change or NATO or Ukraine. And for context, I think it probably sometimes seems to Americans like the Royals are, distinct from the government or kind of float above it. In practice, that's not the case. Like a Royal visit like this is planned by number 10 Downing Street. His speech is thoroughly vetted, if not written by the government. It is functionally indistinguishable from a prime minister's visit. They just know that Trump loves the Royal family and cares more about them and hopefully won't be as much of a dick. So that gets you to me to my question, Ben. I just, I guess I'm still like obviously the shooting attempt thing on Saturday that kind of changes the vibes around all this stuff. And you're like, walking on eggshells for a while a couple of weeks. Yeah. But like, again, I don't get why Starmer's office sent King Charles in the midst of this war when Trump's calling Starmer Neville Chamberlain every day saying he's no Winston Churchill. Just like humiliating the guy left right when we all know that maybe a snub would lead to some actual fallout on policy. But like failing to push back on Trump is hurting Starmer politically. And he just looks so weak and hapless. And I'm wondering when is labor going to cut the cord on this guy? It is a fucking disaster. It is destroying the Labor Party. It really is. I mean, the reason Trump keeps coming back is because he smells weakness. Like this is the most obvious thing in the world to see. Keir Starmer presents as the weakest guy. He presents as scared of Trump. Even when he stands up to Trump, he seems scared about doing it. It's like half-hearted always. Just, yeah. Why is, you know, King Charles is here as part of Trump. Part of like the Starmer plan to charm Trump. Like it's, they're literally threatening to like try to give the Falkland Islands to their buddy Javier Mille down in Argentina. Like they've so little respect. And the lesson time and again is like Trump will respect you more if you punch him in the face, you know, than if you are continually scared of him. He's just going to keep coming back. I think the sad thing about that speech is every clip that we played is absolutely. Like we've heard this for, you know, our whole lives in politics, 80 years and NATO is important. They sound downright edgy, you know, right. The fact that it sounds edgy that King Charles is like, and we shouldn't turn inward and let's cooperate and NATO is important. And we support the brave people of Ukraine. Like, like basically the most anodyne things that you'd expect from your like liberal friend on online, like sound like. Like, like, you know, King Charles is picking fights, you know, and that's a, that's a, that's so if Starmer's fault is his weakness, that speech. is a good capsule of how much Donald Trump has reordered the world in a year and a half. Because the United States is not for any of those things. We're not for NATO. We're not for 80 years of cooperation. We're not for looking outward. We're not for agreeing to disagree about things. That's crazy that we're so extreme that he's talking to his completely alcoholic family member and saying remember how much fun we used to have taking walks together. We're for drinking after five. We're for not being drunk at breakfast. Yeah, that's a really good point. I previewed some sexual tension at the top. So Trump did this event. They welcomed Charles to the White House and he gave a little speech. And Trump said something like, he was talking about his mother and how she would say, look at Charles. He's so cute. My mother had a crush on Charles. Charles is 77. Trump is 79. Well, I would say also though that seeing Charles up there, he looks so young compared to Joe Biden and Donald Trump. I mean, it's good to have a young, vigorous man up there. Young sausage-fingered gentleman. Trump also couldn't help but do like a Churchill bus shout-out. There was a funny. Because he's so online. It's just the lamest thing ever. If you get the reference, you're too online. You are way too online. Speaking of state visits, Ben, CricketCon is back. And bigger than ever, get your calendar out. Pause this podcast. Pencil in a trip to D.C. November 5th through 7th. Bigger stages, more panels. Bigger stages. Hotter speakers. Maybe even King Charles. Probably not, though. There'll also be live taping of shows you know and love. A lot more. Go to CricketCon.com to sign up for updates. It'll be fun. We had fun last time. Actually, I really like CricketCon. I had a great time. We had a good-ass time. We did a fun panel. Okay, let's talk about the security situation in Mali. So, over the last several years, we have covered this wave of coups across Northern Africa, especially the Sahel region. Started in Mali in 2020, then Guinea in 2021. It's a little outside of the Sahel, but you get my point. Burkina Faso in 2022, then Nishe, Jere, and Gabon in 2023. These were distinct events across a large geographic area, but there were some common threats, like anger at corruption, weak and ineffective governance, anger at foreign military presences, especially the French, and the threat from Islamist extremist groups. And as this process went on. With a little Wagner group sprinkled in. Yeah, well, as it went on, the French and the U.S. security forces, we got pushed out of the region. The Russians came in. At the time, it was the Wagner mercenary group. They got renamed. After their boss had a little aerial accident. Isn't that a crazy thing that happened when Prigozhin tried to have a coup against Putin, marched on Moscow, and then mysteriously. Thought he was going to get away with it. Funny, a grenade went off in his airplane. That's a thing that happened. That's how crazy the last few years have been. It's wild. And then they named the Wagner group. They called it the Africa Corps, which is what it's called now. So, in 2024, the military leaders in Mali, Burkina Faso, and Nishe, they pulled out of ECOWAS, the Regional Alliance. They formed their own little alliance. And I think, Ben, it's fair to say that the U.S.-French approach that predated all of this was a disaster. Terrorism in this hell was getting worse, not better. The security extremist situation was getting worse, not better. But, things now in Mali are really, really bad. So, over the weekend, an al-Qaeda-linked extremist group called JNIM, they launched this coordinated series of attacks across Mali, including the capital, Obamacore. They attacked the president's house. They attacked and killed the defense minister. There were militants, like videos of these militants just driving around big parts of the capital with no real opposition. And these JNIM fighters also attacked the Russian troops, the Afrika Korps troops, who have proven, over time, to be worse than useless partners against his counterterrorism partner. In fact, probably helped fuel the insurgency by just killing lots of civilians. In the past few days, the Russians, they got pushed out of some key parts of northern Mali that they had helped retake back in the day. So, it's a total humiliation. So, this is very bad. This group, JNIM, they were established in 2017. It's considered an al-Qaeda affiliate. But in this case, they also coordinated with a separatist group representing the Toreg ethnic minority. It's a traditionally nomadic group that got screwed out of political representation by French colonial lines because they got divided up and they had no one, no political representation. So, they have been basically waging an insurgency ever since. It got all, got way worse again. And Muammar Gaddafi used to hire these Toreg fighters and when Libya collapsed, many of them returned to Mali in Niger with their Libyan weapons and supercharged that insurgency. So, another reason why that adventure in the Obama years was a disaster, too. So, Ben, I guess the question is, like, you see these images on TV. They look scary. It's horrible for the people living there, especially women and girls. I wonder how much of a threat it poses to the U.S., whether JNIM is just focused regionally, whether we should worry about them being more expansive like al-Qaeda, and whether there's anything the U.S. should be doing about it. I mean, yeah, first of all, I do think that, you know, Mali, was a place where, you know, around, in the aftermath of Libya, in part, and also just in part because of, you know, some extremist elements, like around 2012, 2013, things were getting very hairy there. And it was a French intervention, literally, you know, French special forces went in, they kind of pushed out these jihadist groups, they kind of formed the kind of backbone of propping up a government there. And then, you know, there was kind of this model where the U.S. had some counterterrorism capabilities, you know, we had drones and, you know, intelligence gathering and probably a light footprint of some special forces in that region. And then the French were kind of the bigger footprint, training, security forces, things like that. Clearly didn't work. You know, was a little too self-interested, created you know, its own forms of corruption. And you described, well, the I guess, look, Tommy, I'm sure that there's some nexus to some people with wider ambitions beyond this part of Africa. But at the end of the day, I think one of the things we've learned about these countries is like these are, at the end of the day, inherently like local dynamics. You know, that there are militias, some of them are more extremist, some of them like buy into like an Islamist ideology that is like repressive. But I think part of what has kind of contributed to the factors that have made this region more radicalized and violent is seeing every group of armed guys and land cruisers as like ISIS, you know, core or Osama bin Laden. What is needed are strategies and approaches that fit these countries and deal with their politics. And I don't claim I've seen tremendous humility. I don't claim to know the exact formula to bring to Mali. I don't think it helps. And this, look, I could be proven wrong. Maybe this will become the next iteration of ISIS. I just don't think that's right, though. I think these countries have internal dynamics and need different solutions rather than being seen as like a front in a global war on terror. Certainly hasn't helped to just have the only security relationship between the U.S. and these countries to be like intelligent sharing or selling them weapons. Like fed the conflicts, not assault money. Yeah, and I know I'm about to offer a solution that is not currently available, but I think that it also didn't make sense for the former colonial power to be the one that comes in because that feels an awful lot like colonialism if you're in Mali, right? This is why you need a United Nations. Like, this is why you need credible international institutions that can do like retro 1990s era missions like multinational peacekeeping and conflict resolution and negotiation. This is a proving case. And by the way, it'd be good if the African Union did some of that, which they don't because they don't really function either. And so I think what's really needed is multilateral systems and institutions. Yeah, and until then, not great. Yeah, until then, I think it's going to be this kind of Game of Thrones. Yeah, pretty bad. Pods of the World is brought to you by Oriframe. Oriframe is the perfect Mother's Day gift to capture the chaos you put her through and the memories that came with it. Also, I just want to personally thank the Oriframe people because every year, this copy reminds me that Mother's Day is coming up. Yeah. Now, unfortunately for me, I've already purchased my mother an Oriframe. Me too. Because it was a massive hit. And if you're out there and you're thinking, oh man, what am I going to get my mom this year? Get an Oriframe. Do it. Yeah, you've been going on vacations. Mom would like to see that. You got a new pet. Mom would love to see that. You got some grandkids running around. It's a great way for mom to get picture after picture. It's the biggest no-brainer of anything. An absolute no-brainer. You get free unlimited storage. Add as many photos and videos as you want. You can preload photos before it ships. You can personalize your gift. You can add a message before it arrives. There's a gift box included. It's super easy to share photos and videos effortlessly. You just download the free Ora app or you text the photos right to your frame. It is a top-rated app. It will reach number one in the App Store on Christmas Day in 2025. Make Mother's Day special with Oriframes. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save on the gifts moms love by visiting oriframes.com. For a limited time, listeners get 25% off their best-selling Carver mat frame with the code WORLD. That's A-U-R-A-FRAMES.COM promo code WORLD. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Pod Save the World is brought to you by Built. Whether you're renting or paying a mortgage, one of your biggest monthly expenses should be working harder for you. That's where Built comes in. 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And the company's chief strategy advisor, Eric Trump, President Trump's son. Congratulations to you both. Thank you so much for being here. So Eric Trump is like the chief advisor to a robotics company. And she's like, oh, that's totally normal. So thank you, Maria, for that hard-hitting journalism. And then also, Ben, we had discussed previously how some anonymous person had made more than $400,000 by betting on Polymarket that Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro would be deposed. Sure enough, it happens. That guy cashes out. It turns out the individual involved was a master sergeant of the U.S. Army Special Forces who participated in the operation itself. He apparently was also not the brightest bulb on the tree since this guy transferred the money to Polymarket and back via his own Coinbase account, which is a U.S.-based crypto company that verifies your identity. So you're going to get nailed there, buddy. Not hard to track that one. So that said, Ben, I am going to place a bet on Polymarket that that guy gets pardoned after watching these comments from Trump. Are you concerned that federal employees are betting on these predictions in the markets and potentially getting rich? Well, I don't know about it, but was he betting that they would get him or they wouldn't get him? It sounds like he was betting on his removal from office, that Maduro would be removed. It sounds like he was involved in the operation. That's like Pete Rose betting on his own team. It's a little like Pete Rose. Pete Rose, he kept him out of the Hall of Fame because he bet on his own team. Now, if he bet against his team, that would be no good. But he bet on his own team. I'll look into it. Yeah. So the indifference. I'm still 80s, man. Pete Rose. I know. The indifference there could be also because Donald Trump Jr. is an advisor to both Polymarket and its number one competitor, Kelshi. So good stuff. Both of these things speak to a tip of an iceberg of corruption, right? And we get into this in the anti-authoritarian toolkit, the need to spotlight corruption, but also to explain it. So the Eric Trump thing, there is a degree of corruption happening with the Pentagon budget that we have no idea. $1.5 trillion. If the Democrats get control of Congress, I would burrow in here because they want a $1.5 trillion defense budget. You got Eric Trump suddenly getting in the drone game and getting contracts from the federal government that his father controls. And his father's sycophant, Pete Hegseth, is in charge of this Department of War. But it's not just that. All these tech guys who suck up to Trump, Alex Karp, the head of Palantir, these defense tech guys, probably with Peter Thiel investments and stuff, they're just feeding at the trough. The stuff they're throwing Eric Trump's way is a ton of money to you and me, a few hundred million dollars here, a billion dollars there. These guys are probably walking away with tens of billions of dollars in contracts, right? So we got to look at the defense budget. And then on the Polymarket stuff, it reminds me of Abu Ghraib, where this guy is guilty as hell, but they're going to punish the service member, but not. How many people were making bets on Polymarket? Do you think. Or how many people are shorting oil markets before Trump posts something, right? I hope to God that there is some investigation by the SEC or some New York State authority on the stock market manipulation, the oil market manipulation, because otherwise, what's the point of having these agencies? Well, and do you know. I don't even know the answers. Why isn't every Democrat campaigning to shut down all these prediction markets? I don't know. Are they? I think some are. Honestly, I don't want to dug into everybody's platform on this, but I think it's a terrible idea. This is not a criticism. This is a piece of. Every single Democrat should be for showing. You cannot find a more acute manifestation of corruption than the people that are controlling the government have the capacity to bet on their own actions on a prediction market. And most of the actual business on these platforms is just an end run against state bans on sports betting. That is like their primary revenue. So yeah, it's a terrible idea. I do not support it. Finally, Ben, let's turn to Mexico. So because U.S. involvement there in a counter cartel operations, they have created this huge headache for Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum. The story starts on April 19. So the two Americans and two Mexican investigators were killed after their car reportedly plunged off a cliff. I don't really. It's hard. I feel like there's more to the story we don't know, right? Yeah. I mean. Do they just drive off the edge? Something happened? Yeah. It's like, there's so much we don't know. But they were returning from a drug bust operation on a meth lab in the mountains of Mexico in the state of Chihuahua. So it has since been confirmed by some U.S. officials who spoke to the AP, among other news outlets, that they were CIA officers. This created big political and legal and foreign policy problems for Claudia Sheinbaum. Under Mexico's constitution, foreign governments cannot conduct law enforcement or intelligence operations on Mexican soil. It's very sensitive, at least not independently. They need to be with the government or registered. It's a very sensitive sovereignty issue. It dates back many, many decades. There have been all these terrible incidents. And this is a very sensitive issue. And this became an intense focus under President Lopez Obrador, who a couple years back, like 21 or 2020, passed legislation further restricting foreign law enforcement intelligence agents in Mexico. So again, fast forward to when this story broke earlier this month. Sheinbaum initially says that she was not aware that American officials were participating in the operation. She's basically held to that story. So far, she's like asked the U.S. for more detail or clarification, but mostly blamed officials in Chihuahua and threatened to reprimand them. I think it's helped that the governor there is from the opposition party. So Ben, I'm trying to like, again, trying to figure out how to read this. Did the U.S. really not tell the Mexican federal government about this operation or register these individuals? We don't know. Was this like a don't ask, don't tell situation where the U.S. is doing a lot of stuff? Sheinbaum gets told some general strokes, but not all of it for deniability on the specifics. Like big picture, it's like definitely an example of how she is trying to balance between nationalism and sovereignty and then all the things Trump is demanding. Because as we've talked about before, Trump has threatened to conduct airstrikes on cartels in Mexico, on Mexican territory. There's reports that the CIA has been flying surveillance drones over Mexican territory. God knows what else the CIA and the DEA are doing in Mexico that we don't know about. And so Sheinbaum is trying to fend off these crazier ideas while like not getting tariffed to hell. What did you make of this story and how like to read between the lines? I thought it was really important. I mean, the suggestion out of the fact pattern that we see is that there were two CIA agents that were down in this state in Chihuahua and they were not there under the approval of the Mexican federal government, that maybe they'd made some side deals with local officials or the governor and that they were in some operation and then something went wrong. And I do wonder how the car plunged off a cliff. And by the way, a reason for that could be that the U.S. thinks that the federal officials are corrupt and the state officials are on the up and up so they go around them. I don't know. Yeah, it could be that they think that if we tell the federal officials, they'll tip off the cartels or just faster to deal with it. Or it's kind of like how we deal with, I don't know, hypothetically like Pakistan, you know, it's just rough out there and we're just gonna have to do what we have to do and we'll let them know generically we're doing stuff over here in your tribal regions, but we're not going to tell you about what we're doing. Now, here's why I think this is important. If there are these two CIA guys doing this, that tells me that this is happening. This is not the only place that they're probably CIA guys. That's my assumption too. And so it suggests to me that we have moved the war on terror paradigm into Mexico, where you've got on the ground CIA presence. Some of that is partnered with local security forces. Some of that may be freelance. Some of that may be coordinated with the government, but that there's a kind of much more active confrontation with drug cartels. Now, people may say, well, that's good. We're fighting drug cartels. The war on drugs paradigm and the war on terror paradigm, neither of them have worked. And so fusing them is a little disconcerting to me. And I feel like I saw this and I thought, and I was saying this to our producer Ilona before we recorded, like Mexico dropped off the war list. It's like, well, Cuba, Greenland. - At this point, yeah. - This kind of reminder, like this, Mexico is going to come up more. And this question of what are we doing? Are there covert operations happening? Are there CIA operations? Could that lead to military action against the cartels directly? And then related to that, what does this mean for Claudia Sheinbaum? Because she does not want to have that happen. She's made very clear she doesn't want U.S. military engagement in her country. And one way to do that is to look the other way and just kind of not pay attention to what the U.S. government may be doing. But this episode makes that kind of untenable for her because she doesn't want to look feckless, right? And not in charge. And so it's going to create potential difficulties for her to manage through too. This is one of those stories you put a pin in and say, I have a feeling we're going to be talking more about Mexico. I have a feeling that there's more happening in Mexico than we're seeing. Yeah. And like so far, she's given Trump a lot of concessions. Like she's- She extradited a bunch of drug leaders for prosecution. She put National Guard troops on the border. I think she slapped a big tariff on the Chinese to be in line with U.S. tariffs. She cut off oil shipments to Cuba. So like she's given Trump a lot of what he wants. But even when there have been major cartel operations, like the takedown of that guy, El Mencho, that we talked about a while back, Trump's reaction wasn't to praise them necessarily. It was like he got mad at the images of violence and chaos that were on TV afterwards and started demanding that the Mexican authority- The Mexican authorities do more. So she's like just in this squeeze. And there was an interesting piece. I think it was a Wall Street Journal had a great profile on her in this moment and like all that she's doing to manage this guy. He talked about how she has a security meeting at 6 a.m. every day. Then she does this 7.30 a.m. press conference every day and then just like works into the night. She's like just grinding and is getting pressured by Trump, but also getting pressured by President López Obrador for her like political benefactor, mentor, who is on paper, left the scene, is writing a book. But he's pressuring her to break with Trump, to cut deals with China, to cut deals with Canada, demanding more nationalism. And she's like met with Trump once, but had nearly 20 phone calls with the guy. So there's clearly all this behind the scenes like management happening and a relationship that actually seems genuinely cordial. But, you know, as you know, with Trump, like you're always one comment away from the thing being upended. Yeah. No, she's just trying to manage through it. And she's been firm with Trump when she needs to be. I like Claudia Sheinbaum a lot. And by the way, AMLO, you know, López Obrador, her predecessor, kind of rich for him because he was pretty chummy chummy with Trump, too. Like he was like Mr. Fellow Populist. I'm just a leftist populist. So but I get it. Like he's reflecting the kind of left wing nationalism that you would expect from that political party in Mexico. I should just say the problem is that this strategy won't work. Like the drug cartels are deeply entrenched. Trump's not going to defeat them in two and a half years with some CIA operations, you know, like like and people what to do. I mean, Ricardo Zuniga has been on with both of us to talk about this. I mean, a strategy that far more aggressively just kind of goes after all their money sources like they depend on global financial networks. They have sprawling business and empires that go beyond Mexico. They control ports, you know, in different parts of the world. Like there are other ways of trying to shrink the cartels. By the way, you could legalize drugs in this country to kind of take away the revenue that goes that way. I personally favor that. But like you're not this isn't going to work like the the idea that like some CIA operations in Mexico, a big country like the drug trade is decades established, like it employs tens of thousands of people like you're not going to beat them with like CIA operation after a CIA operation or just killing off leaders like the kingpin strategies don't seem to work. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. They create chaos. Look at this to hell that we just talked about. We killed a lot of terrorists there. You know, kind of number three down again. Yeah, it doesn't always work. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, you're gonna hear Ben's interview about how to fight authoritarianism. We got a playbook for you. So stick around for that. Posse of the world is brought to you by supremacy. World War Three. 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We just posted a ton more info about what to expect from the big event from November 5th to 7th. So check it out at crooked con.com and get your tickets now. The NDC. Crooked con is right after the midterms and it is going to be the first time we come together to hash it out in person. The NDC. something like this. And I was really more than happy to join this fight and starting writing, I mean, starting producing and working with those people for the authoritarian toolkit. Okay. So Nick, you had like a different experience. I think Feta, you described well, the kind of awareness of this right-wing, far-right authoritarian kind of coordination. Nick, when I met you, you were dealing with a much more kind of visceral form of authoritarianism. Lukashenko, the autocratic leader of Belarus, has cracked down the opposition. You literally had to kind of exile at first Lithuania. Describe your journey from being in Belarus, running an organization to DHUB. Yeah, thank you. My journey, yeah, my journey to the DHUB, it's a bit different. You know, born in and raised in Minsk and under the regime Lukashenko, going to schools, washed with all propaganda. Somehow I found this important. I don't know, courage and some, I don't know, meaning in a way that something is not right. Something is that doesn't make any sense. And obviously, maybe it's connecting with my with my sexuality and queer identity. I found this idea of liberation inside me, liberation of my sexuality, liberation of my community and liberation of my own country. Because back then, I didn't understand how everything is. connected and the fight for lgbtq plus rights it's also the fight for for for democracy um now five years later yeah i i lost uh kind of i lost my country i lost my uh lost my ability to see my loved ones lost my um lost my meaning basically you know to to influence on my community and to try to push it and living now in berlin um i kind of realized especially i realized that when especially when trump started getting into power people sometimes started talking about oh my god this is new new world order and then i was like wait wait a second is it or maybe it's already authoritarian playbook which already was built and actually uh just transformed in a new wave so i'm kind of was happy that my journey and my journey of like a small community also in a country which sometimes also overlooked in the big politics um i tried to take all the lessons from all these years of democracy defenders in my region and kind of also share it with my with my community and community worldwide so yeah at the d-hub now we're creating this ontario thailand toolkit which connects all practices in some kind of kind of readable and hands-on uh hands-on book and not book and it's an only publication to make sure that we have all the knowledge and all the strategy how to fight back so and eventually i hope it will bring uh my region uh to democracy so i i've interacted with you guys through d-hub and so people understand you know essentially your network works with you know small d democracy activists not just in europe but but around the world i mean it's a global perspective that you're taking on this authoritarian challenge that all three of us have interacted with in our own ways you know i've i've dealt with trump here in the united states uh from the perspective of politics and media uh feda you've been a politician and activist yourself kind of feeling the rising tide of uh of a certain kind of far-right politics in places like italy nick you had the most first-hand experience of losing you know at least for the time that you were in the country how do you describe the process by which you put together this anti-authoritarian toolkit um you know who who did you talk to in order to put it together and and i guess to begin feda with you um can you explain i want to start pulling out lessons one that we talked about when i saw you uh in costa rica was putting broccoli in the rice i like that you guys try to have these um you know phrases that they're punchy and clever uh you know i think that's kind of they're punchy and clever um but that actually speak to something important like how do you get from talking to a bunch of activists to a point like put broccoli in the rice thanks so much for the question so basically we as you were saying we're activists ourselves and we started from our own people to start um understanding what what was the ground so what are what were we talking about when we were talking about rising authoritarians what was their playbook and from people like us and from our own contact we started to talking to talk with other activists about what was the playbook of authoritarians and from this the authoritarian playbook was born but then we just we didn't want just to give another diagnosis of how the word the word was working we really wanted to get into how do we fight them so we started talking with activists from literally all around the world we have case studies going from thailand to south africa to kenya to argentina um talking about with them about what where the difference between what's happening in the world and what's happening in the world and so on and so forth and so on and so forth and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on so people that almost fairly win the elections but then get into power and dismantle the institutions of democracy from within so we needed to understand first how do we do in order not to have them elected so how do we win elections but it was not just about election it was about building movements it was about build creating an opposition inside different parliaments so we started talking with people that managed to do it successfully a good example with this of this where for example our friends in brazil or our friends in in france where they just beat the far right and the parliamentary elections a couple of years ago so we started talking with these people and they gave us different strategies and tactics in order to fight back and one of the strategies and tactics is exactly what you were talking about which is the strategy of broccoli is that um within our volume of digital comms which i happen to have it here um we talk about several tactics that can fight autoritarians and we have a grand strategy one of these tactics for example is network of influencers and when we talk about broccoli and rice we ask these influencers that might talk about several things like makeup or um gossips we ask them to put into their pages some piece and bits of political content for them to be able to fight back and that's what we're talking about in order to start shaping the idea of the people that that listen to them and that and that see them on social media in a democratic way this is a play that authoritarians have developed so well all around the world an example is bukele who has more than 1 500 youtube or facebook pages that talk about everything and include his politics in his social media we need to start doing the same and we wrote it exactly that how do you do it within your own people within your own communities to put broccoli so things that people might not generally like like politics into the rice so the nice content about makeup so that you start changing the discourse yourself yeah no it's a really important point because after the last election i mean this is why we're on a podcast so it's one of the reasons i brought up this point after the democrats lost in 2024 there was this kind of pretty predictable freak out oh trump won you know by going on all these podcasts you know theovon and joe rogan and people like that in the united states and the democrats are like maybe we have to go on the podcast too and i think what they missed is you know joe rogan is a comedian and a ufc commentator right he's not he didn't start in politics like he started with the rice the thing that people were attracted to was his kind of curiosity and his background and you know he's funny they think or whatever and then you know that gives him more credibility in some ways you know politics is downstream from culture as you would say uh to the to when he has a political conversation he's built up a credibility with the audience um and i think that's an important message for us now this is one of you know one of many you know lessons you have embedded nick i want to ask you though um to this question of um messaging you know one of the things that uh trump and uh other authoritarians have done is they kind of talk about a corrupt system and then they themselves are phenomenally corrupt you know um and and we've seen corruption become you know a a tool that has worked against authoritarians it just worked against victor orban in hungary what what lessons do you take from how how corruption can be a way of going on offense against authoritarians and and what other lessons are there about the forms of messaging um that that that can help drive arguments against authoritarians who are kind of trying to control in some ways the media space oh it's a good question i think you know it's also very i i need to point out that the authoritarian populism rises not because people people love it but also because democracy failed to meet their needs and they talking about corruption also because of it but the problem with authoritarians that they um they changed and uh yeah maybe they no longer arrives with tanks and stage coups but now they build popularity and wins these elections and uh but the problem with people not realizing that once they elected they erodes democratic institutions they uh just they destroy uh independent media and concentrate power and weaken civic spaces. So they slowly, like a frog in slowly heated water, by the time you realize it, you are already in autocracy. Building this toolkit, we wanted to show that progressives need to learn also, and sometimes we are also doing wrong. And when we're talking about democracy, we not only need to defend democracy, but we also need to renew it. These 10 volumes, as Fede mentioned, they are two core volumes. They are authoritarian playbooks, which helps identify and understand authoritarian tactics, and democratic playbook, which brings together the all best knowledges from all our sector of our society. But talking about public conversation, I think the progressives need to change how they do it in the digital environments, because the authoritarians actually, they are the first ones who understand these spaces, and they have clear advantages, like Bukele, as mentioned in El Salvador, or even in even Orban in Hungary, but he lost. Yeah, I mean, this is, influence no longer works through the single message or messengers, but through ecosystems. And this is what we did in our, actually it's mentioned in our authoritarian playbook, that we need to put a broccoli into rice, or working with influencers. This has to be renewed. And our message needs to be also simple. We need to stop being very preachy. Yeah, so that's my thought about the changes. Well, and Fede, what do you take, I mean, there's a lot in here, what would you want to highlight for people as some of the key learnings that you're seeking to kind of spread to other like-minded people? People are asking us whether we want a different way of doing politics. And this is what we're thinking about when we talk about the anti-authoritarian toolkit. So, we are bringing new practices into what has been hold, and talking about the several lessons that can be learned. First of all, as Nick was saying, is how do we manage digital communications? So, we were talking about putting broccoli in the rice, but this is not the only thing. We need to, for example, have networks of influencers change the way in which we talk about politics. Come and talk about real values. You were talking about corruption before, Ben. There is one thing really important that I want to say about corruption. Authoritarians use corruption as their main enemy from the other side. So, when they're discovered as the corrupted one, they're exposed as the corrupted one. This is the moment in which they start losing. One of the things that we have to do is exactly exposing this corruption and see how the moral authority from which they're coming to expose the other side is corrupted. It's actually the one that is breaking them, because they're not. And an example that you were giving about Margaret and Orban, well, Margaret won exactly because he managed not only to expose this corruption, but also to go on the ground. And he visited like more than a thousand little places during his own campaign, so that, you know, he was attacking on the other side. He was meeting people one by one and building a vision. This is another thing that we have seen in several campaigns that really worked, like the Mandami campaign. We're not talking just about exposing what is wrong from these authoritarians. We are also giving people a vision of what is it that we would want and that we would like. So, all of this, together with working with the whole digital ecosystem, and what I mean by that, we generally think that democracy is protected either by politicians, by journalists, either by civil society. What we say here is that we don't have, those are not three words that work separately. We need to put together the whole democratic ecosystem that is built on these different pillars and let them work in a way that they support each other. We have one whole volume and place on how the political side can actually work and collaborate with civil societies and journalists in order not only to win campaign, but to expose corruption, to expose authoritarian plays. And so, be stronger together. This is, I think, something new that we have seen with all our researches and interviews, that it is the moment in which we have the whole democratic system working together that we can actually win. And everything can be found in our website, anti-authoritarian.com. So, if anyone listening to us is interested, you can just go and give a look to what we're putting up together at anti-authoritarian.com. And so, you've got, just to pull out the things we've talked about, the idea of building networks of influencers, the idea of engaging people on the things that they're interested in, and then working your way into politics. That's the broccoli into rice. The need to spotlight corruption, to kind of turn the tables on the authoritarians. The need to show up everywhere, like you said Magyar did, to get out into the field, to go to places maybe that progressives haven't been showing up before. Nick, are there any lessons that you want to add to that from the work that you've done about how do you mobilize people? How do you get people out to actually vote? Also, one other thing that you guys have is examples of where this worked. Are there case studies? Are there places? Fed mentioned Mamdani in New York. We've talked about Hungary. Are there places that you would spotlight where we can learn from progressive successes against authoritarians? Of course. The whole toolkit is designed to be adapted. I always say that take what works for you, adapt the rest, and use it in whatever you are. I just wanted to amplify the huge work which was done not only by the DHUB but Democracy Defender worldwide because we spent almost two years doing like 100 interviews with the people, real people, who were fighting for democracy, who fought or who lost in their battles. We really wanted to create some kind of. Not a publication. This is not a publication. It's a hands-on resource designed to be used by the people right now. I cannot say right now that this is the right thing to do. I can't say right now that there is something which we can work, for instance, in the United States, or it was the best what works in Hungary or in Poland. But the thing is people can connect. We are, as progressives, sometimes losing the hope that we can win, and we finally have something which can help us to continue. Coming from the background, when I think about this, I don't need a hope. I always say that I don't need a hope to continue to fight and to resist. This is what I was taken from the queer community in Belarus because we were existing before this concept of hope. So now I think when we have this material which can be used and implemented in different societies or different regions, that's kind of impressive. And also, this is like a non-stop process. This is like the toolkit will be updated. We will be updating it through our website. It's a podcast. It's our video. It's everything. So Fedor, just to give you the last word here, what do you think about. I take Nick's point that essentially what you have is a bunch of different ideas taken from around the world. Here are some strategies and tactics that have worked. That might be either replicated or adapted to other places. So I take your point, Nick, that it's not going to be exactly what happened in Hungary or New York City is going to work in Italy, for instance, but that there are lessons you can take and then apply. And that just there's something empowering about the sharing that you're doing in that regard. When you look around the world the last couple of years, the time you were working on this, where did you see democratic campaigns? And I don't mean the democratic part in the US or Italy, for that matter. I mean, small, de-democratic campaigns. Where do you see the most innovative strategies that we can be learning from in the battles to come? Let me add something on exactly that. Not only the most interesting strategies, but what ATK is needed for. So as Nick was saying, as you were underlining, we cannot take place and exactly use them in one country. But I give you a very specific example of a play that I thought was extremely interesting. And now people like me in my own country, or like a person, one of the people that wrote the anti-Turkish toolkit, Augustine is right, is using in his country, is the play of distributed, distributed organizing. So this was a play that was developed from one of our friends, friends, Sarah in France, right before the parliamentary elections in France a couple of years ago. So Macron calls for elections three weeks before the actual elections. So people didn't really have the time to organize around the elections and understand what they could do so what they did is that all of these people came up into a into a zoom call and they started organizing in order to have a get out the vote campaign and also to understand who they had to move in terms of candidates to allow for the front national not to win and so what they developed was like a central team that was like very very small and there was not controlling but this central team was basically managing the communication of what is it that they can communicate to people that it's going to work and then share the messages with thousands of organizations influencers people that could actually move the base and so that this message could get to a wider public as possible in a way that was not coordinated i mean that was coordinated sorry but that was not controlled so the main part of the message was there was developed by central team but then everybody from influencers to organizations could adopt this message and communicate it in the best way that they needed to in order to reach their own target and in this way they managed to do these two things develop a huge dotv campaign that allowed them to not have the front national and so the far right party in france win but also to then have a massive influence on candidates so who which were the candidates that needed to go down in order for have at the local level let's predict this in order not to have front national win and they they did it and so now what we're trying to do here in different countries for elections that are coming it's sort of like replicating the same play but in a more organized way so we are adapting this play and we're trying to put together from now influencers civil societies journalists that want to have a specific talk they want to have specific topics to talk about for the elections and then have a dotv campaign run on these topics that will be supported or we hope are going to be supported by um by central left party slash democratic parties that go against the central left party against the far right so what we did here was taking the example of what we used what was used in france and worked reimagined brought it in the in the aatk into the anti-authoritarian toolkit in as a play so a tactic and then now activists like me are taking it changing it and adapting to their own national country a context and this is just one idea but on anti-authoritarian.com people are going to find 10 volumes on 10 different topics all of them with plays and more than 150 cases of what worked in different countries and literally and how to so how can you do display from one to seven steps including tips to make it work in your own context so the idea is that really this is something live we want people to take it use it make mistakes but at least try and have something to start from because i remember that as an activist it was really hard because you had no idea from where you had to start and now at least we have something that tell us those are the things that are working around the world you can take it you can change them you can use them this is what we're looking for yeah no i think uh the distributed organizing is an important point and i mean it it resonates here in the united states because i think democrats sometimes are trying to figure out the perfect set of talking points or you know the one message that i'm going to give is that you're not going to have a message um that's going to work across the country or are we moving to the left or to the center but the idea is if you have some core arguments and core values and and core anti-authoritarian messages like you know trump is wildly corrupt and is actually looting the government for his own purposes not trying to fix a corrupt system that you then allow for a coordinated dissemination of that messaging that you know zora mamdani is going to have one message in new york city but james talarico is going to have a different version of that message in texas there'll be a common dna but there'll be this distributed organizing where it's different in different parts of the country and that's kind of part of what needs to happen around the world i mean just to wrap this up i just say the main thing is that there needs to be coordination among politicians activists civil society even sometimes journalists as you say independent journalists but also just among like-minded people around the world because the far right has been very networked very coordinated um you guys have experienced that in your own lives and work uh we're all experiencing that around the world this is a starting point for trying to create a kind of living resource for people so again we'll put this in the show notes i encourage people to check out the anti-authoritarian play uh playbook the toolkit um and and d hub in general so nick and federica thanks so much for the work you've done on this and for joining us today thank you ben for having us thank you so much thanks to nick and federica for coming on the show and we'll talk to you guys soon pod save the world is a crooked media production our senior producer is alona minkowski our producer is michael goldsmith our associate producer is anisha banerjee we get production support from saul rubin our executive producers are me tommy vitor and ben rhodes the show is engineered mixed and edited by jordan canter audio support by charlotte landis thank you to our digital team ben hethcote mia kelman william jones david tolls and ryan young matt de grote is our head of production adrian hill is our senior vice president of news and politics if you want to listen to pod save the world ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on supercast substack youtube or apple podcasts don't forget to follow us at crooked media on instagram tiktok and twitter for more original content host takeovers and other community events please subscribe to pod save the world on youtube for access to full episodes bonus content and much more and if you're opinionated like us leave a review our production staff is proudly unionized by the writers guild of america east as someone tuned into politics you've probably seen the constant bickering about who belongs in the pro-democracy movement well we think it's best to have these conversations in person and hopefully it will also be more productive crooked con is right after the midterms and it is going to be the first time we come together to hash it out in person and kick off the 2028 debate we just posted a ton more info about what to expect from the big event from november 5th to 7th so check it out at crookedcon.com and get your tickets now cndc picture this you're on the beach with the whole family the sun is shining the water is warm and your kids are finally getting along this is when it hits you that myrtle moment it's the second everything clicks when you realize myrtle beach is more than a getaway it's right where you belong don't just daydream about it find your own myrtle moment at visit myrtle beach.com this is dr laurie santos from the happiness lab research on the science of happiness consistently points to the importance of social connection that's why i've been thinking about how i can turn more of my shared experiences into rituals think setting a beautiful table and making even the little moments feel a bit special these days i've been using the berry serving platter from simon pierce it's a hand-thrown piece of pottery with a weight and character that tells you that someone made this if you're setting a table for the people you love starting here see all my favorite designs at simon pierce.com that's s-i-m-o-n-p-e-a-r-c-e.com simon pierce made by hand one at a time