King's Advisor Reveals What the Royal Family Knows About UFOs

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Dan Castello said that he saw King Charles flying in a saucer. This very esteemed Israeli scientist called Haim Eshed talking about crashes, the acknowledgement of non-human intelligences, talking about agreements with terrestrial governments. He says that an elliptical craft was discovered in Comanche Point in the Grand Canyon. And so there's all these conspiracies about why parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted. Restricted zones. We've had 30 UFO crashes to date. Bases on Mars. Yes. With humans and ETs. We've flown to Mars. We've already been there. You lend a lot of credibility to the Majestic 12 documents. The 1st of October, 1947, Sir Henry Tisdall, the chief scientific advisor to the UK Ministry of Defense, he sets up a secret Flying Saucer working party. That working party report is then published and it says that this subject should be published. It should be given as little publicity as possible. And we know that that's a fact. The Tisdall working UFO group. Yeah, some of those documents refer to the Kennedy assassination. And I know that is a highly contested document basically saying that Kennedy is interfering too much in our activities and we need to do something about it. Really? Yeah. That's wild. And the odd thing about this phenomenon is a surprising number of people have got some experience to tell. I did have a memory which appears to be a memory before I was born. Seeing a craft return and speaking to people who had come off that craft, I wasn't allowed to go on it. And then I had two beings who showed me my parents and told me I had to be born again. When you say born again, it was. I had to go back. An experience I had which has stayed with me. I have quite a strong recall of the first 48 hours of my life. What do you think the link is between UFOs and life and death? I'm here with Jonathan Kaplan who is a prominent trial lawyer, a barrister, who's written an incredible book. It's called UFOs, the World's Best Casualties. It's a kept secret. And it's an incredible, I'd say, kind of macro, big history book around the UFO topic. It does a lot of sense-making. There are all sorts of really interesting tidbits I want to dive into. And rumors are that you've had some interactions, possibly with the royal family, around this issue. So there's so many things I want to dive into. Thank you for being here, Jonathan. Thank you, Jesse, for having me. I'm really excited. So why don't we get started? We just, you know, I sort of teased people with that intro there. Talk about the fact that you are a member of the King's Council. I think people with your sort of conventional credentials aren't often into UFOs. It seems like you have some reason to believe that people at the highest levels of British politics, you know, even, you know, symbolic figureheads like the royal family are interested in UFOs. Is that right? Yes. I mean, I can't speak about living members of the royal family. But when I became involved in this subject 50 years ago now, I was working on the editorial board of a magazine called Flying Saucer Review, which became quite well known. It had correspondents like the young Jacques Vallée and others on it. And one of my tasks was to deliver each copy of the magazine to the equerry to Prince Philip. And Prince Philip, he's no longer with us, was very interested in this subject. So was his equerry. And on occasions, they would interview quite key witnesses to significant UFO events at the palace. Really? Yes. So Prince Philip would bring in witnesses to significant UFO events and personally interrogate them? No, his equerry would. It was obviously with Prince Philip's consent and full knowledge. Then his equerry would prepare a transcript and a report, and they would discuss it. That's wild. What are examples of cases? Well, there was a famous case involving a BOAC Strato Cruiser with Captain Howard. I remember that was one case. Explain to the audience, what is BOAC? So BOAC was the old terminology for British Airways. And there was a case involving a plane coming from New York and flying saucers. A flying saucer had been sighted by the passengers and the pilot on that plane. And they were very keen to find out more about it. And Captain Howard bravely in those days reported the sighting because pilots were pretty much penalized if they did that back in the 1970s, 60s. The entire crew and some of the passengers watched this object for 18 minutes. And I think there's no question that it was. There's no illusion. And that it was being intelligently handled. Interesting. And so there's a sighting and then Prince Philip asked to learn more, essentially, through his inquiry? Yes, his inquiry would find out more. And his inquiry, of course, was great friends with people who were on active service in the Royal Air Force. They would tell him of sightings that the Air Force was having. And, you know. Yeah, they wanted to collect a database so they could have discussions and keep up to date with what was a fascinating phenomenon even then. What were the exact details around this British Airways sighting? I don't honestly remember the precise details of that case, except that a flying saucer was reported by Captain Howard to have followed the aircraft for quite a while. Any other prominent cases that Prince Philip seemed to. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, there was a case involving two schoolboys in Derbyshire who took a photograph of three UFOs. That photograph showed three flying saucers. And they wanted to speak to the boys and find out more about the circumstances in which they took the photograph. How do you think Prince Philip got interested in the subject to begin with? Well, I think he was a very open-minded individual. And he was obviously in touch with people in the armed forces. And, of course, the Air Force were obviously a significant part of his duties. And he would have had contact with very senior Air Force officers. So, I think probably through talking with them. And his inquiry then went on, which he wrote about in a book called, Sounds from Another Room, to have a rather strange experience, which was that he was invited by an army general to go to Chelsea to meet a lady called Mrs. Markham. And she had wanted to meet him to discuss the UFO situation. And he went. And when he got there, he found a man in a rather dimly lit room who was introduced as Mr. Jones. And he was introduced as Mr. Janus, who then proceeded to ask him about Prince Philip, and then to ask him about what he knew about the topic of UFOs. And the inquiry then said, well, from then on, I knew he could read my mind. And he was telling me a lot of secrets, which I had learned through my position as being a member of the Royal Air Force and through my life in the palace. And I realized that this was a man to be reckoned with. And Mr. Janus's objective was that he very much wanted to be introduced to Prince Philip, whom he described as a man who was obviously very keen on ecology, who was very open-minded, and who would be a great ambassador for the human race. But the inquiry then became rather nervous. left and made a note as contemporaneous as he could remember it of that discussion in which Mr. Janus told him quite a bit about advanced civilizations and how they were very keen to develop another race and to help that race progress and to save this planet. That note obviously would have been taken to Prince Philip, but he decided against making an introduction, although he did go back to try to contact Mrs. Markham later, and she had moved. Wow. Fascinating. Who do you think Mr. Janus was? Well, Sir Peter Horsley, who was the equerry, clearly thought that he was an extraterrestrial or a non-human intelligence, let's say. He said extraterrestrial at the time because that was the focus for the pilots of these craft as they understood it in those days. And probably he may have been because he certainly was communicating with Peter Horsley on other levels besides vocally and letting him know that he had quite advanced psychic powers. And I suspect it was a genuine attempt to try to meet Prince Philip. So one of Prince Philip's chief aides openly writes about meeting with a "person" who seems to know a ton about UFOs and ETs and then even read his mind. And he himself speculates that this person is actually non-human. Yes, yes. He formed that view pretty quickly. And he could not have written his book without Prince Philip's approval. Fascinating. Wow. Okay. Well, that's very interesting. Who is Lord Louis Mountbatten? So Lord Louis Mountbatten was a senior member of the royal family. He was actually killed on his boat when it was blown up by the IRA. He is our current king's uncle. And he too was interested. And there are many stories about his interest. He served in the Royal Navy during the war. And a craft was supposed to have landed on his estate at Broadlands and to have been seen by the gardener. And that's the story that I'm going to tell you about. So I'm going to tell you about the story that I'm going to tell you about. And Lord Mountbatten was supposed then to have interviewed him, and again, to have passed that to Prince Philip. And did he sort of help get Prince Philip interested in this subject? I don't know which way round that interest started, but they were clearly both interested. And funnily enough, you can go forward to a journalist who figured quite prominently in UFO history later, an American journalist called Dorothy Kilgallen. She died in very mysterious circumstances. She was a friend of Marilyn Monroe. She was a friend of the Kennedys. And she wrote an article when she was stationed in London in 1955, which for its day was quite surprising because she said that she had been informed by reliable sources that a craft had crashed, and that there were small humanoids aboard the craft, and that she'd been informed by a very senior cabinet member. Now, nobody quite knows who her source was, but Tim Good, who's a friend of mine, and of course has written a number of excellent UFO books, has speculated. And I've gathered from another source, although I can't be quite certain, that that source was Lord Mountbatten. Hmm. Whoa. Interesting. So he might have been familiar with actual crash retrieval. He could well have been, yes. Hmm. And do you think King Charles is interested in UFOs? I wouldn't be surprised. Why can't you talk about your current interactions? Well, I mean, I wouldn't talk about any living person, about their views. I think those are personal. And- Because there are rumors that he's interested. I believe so, yes. Yeah. Fair enough. There's even- We were talking earlier, there's a UFO researcher out here named Mark Christopher Lee. He made a whole documentary about UFOs and the royal family. And in it, he interviews this guy, Dan Castello. I don't know if you've heard that name. He was this guy who was a diver in Nova Scotia on what he claims to be some top secret project. And he said that he saw King Charles flying in a saucer. And he's been in the room with some of these royal family members, and I don't know what to make of it. Well, I'm afraid I don't know what to make of that either. Yeah, it's pretty wild. But the royal interest in UFOs, it doesn't occur in sort of a vacuum. I think a lot of European elites seem interested in the subject. A royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams II, is also interested in UFOs. So much so that he's in photos with Bob John, who was running the Princeton anomalous engineering- research center pair with Hal Puthoff. And I believe Ed May, who helped run the psychic spy program for the CIA, has stories with the royal prince of Liechtenstein. So I think there is some connection there. I think there is. I think the European royals have got a tradition of being interested in this subject. And without going too far on a limb, I think the same is true in Monaco. Interesting. So why do you think that? Well, just from conversations I've been privy to and I've listened to, I think that's the case. Can you say anything more? No, I just think that they have an active interest. Okay. And is any of this public? No, I don't think so. Okay. So they might have an active interest as well. Interesting. And then where do you think the interest stems from? Do you think it's one of those things where it's like, if you've fulfilled the lower end of Maslow's hierarchy, you got food and all this basic subsistence level stuff down, which obviously any member of the royal family does, you can start to deal with eschatology and life on other planets visiting us and that sort of thing? Or is it a more intimate connection? And do you think they try to commune or contact these things or might have an asymmetric view into the technology? I don't know of any actual contact desire or attempts, but I guess once you don't have to deal with the daily problems, your mind is freer to range back to the possibly greater issues. And I think probably, I think there's a discussion amongst different royal families and different families of wealth. You could talk about the Rockefellers, you can talk about others. And this is a topic which has interested them. I mean, who are we? Where have we come from? What do these sightings signify? I think this is not just dinner table talk. I think it's something that they're deeply interested in. Yeah. Well, Eric Walker, who was president of Penn State and he was rumored to be on the Majestic 12, in fact, one of Vannevar Bush's sort of top, you know, research guys, Robert Saarbacher, who's an atomic energy expert, said Eric Walker was privy to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base at the time, Wright Airfield debriefs on the UFO issue and knows all about it. And a couple of researchers walked into his office and spoke to him. William Steinman, I think. Bill Steinman, exactly. And Scott Crane. And they were asking him about UFOs. And he said, elite families seem to have this long history with the topic and know all about this. And so I find it to be very interesting, along with the fact that you have, you know, Chris Mellon is at the, you know, forefront of the conversation in the US. He's obviously like, I believe, one of the sole heirs to the Mellon family fortune. And the Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO research. So they were kind of all over this topic. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think there is a tradition of being interested in this subject. And yeah, I mean, Eric Walker and Sauerbacher, as you say, were linked to, well, Walker was anyway, to MJ-12. And yeah, I don't know how officially linked they are, but privately, they certainly are linked. And I think have been prepared under certain circumstances of privacy to invest in finding and acquiring greater knowledge. You talk about in your book, a very accomplished Israeli official who has all sorts of accolades, you know, when it comes to Israeli defense, in fact, kind of set up the equivalent of the Space Force in Israel, saying all sorts of really interesting things about UFOs. Do you want to talk more about that? Sure. So I think it's probably back, going back now about six years, a book was published, I think, in December 2020, by a physicist called Haim Eshed. He was really the father of the Israeli space industry, and had been responsible for the early Israeli satellites. And in a book, Beyond the Horizon, which has only ever been published in Hebrew or Evrit, the last part of the book deals with his comments on UFOs, crashes, and what he's learned about the subject. And it was co-authored, in fact, by an Israeli journalist called Hanar Yagai. And he then, at the same time, gave one interview just prior to publication to an Israeli newspaper. And that interview went actually even further than book and talked about agreements between the United States, one or two other countries, and a federation called what he called the Galactic Federation. So basically, you have this very esteemed, Israeli scientist talking about crashes, talking about the acknowledgement of non-human intelligences, talking about agreements with terrestrial governments. And it was pretty astounding. And that interview in the newspaper, pretty much like David Grush's evidence to Congress in July 2023, went around the world. And I thought, well, I must, I must make some contacts in the Israeli Space Agency quickly. And I went to Israel to try to contact him. And extraordinarily, he went completely to ground. He wasn't answering the phone. He wasn't answering emails. Had you been in contact with him before that? No, no. But I got a very senior contact in the Space Agency to work on my behalf to try to contact him. So I contacted his co-author, Hagar Yanai. And she said, I really can't speak about the book at all. And I can give you no interviews. So you've got this extraordinary situation of this book being published, neither Eshed or Yagai wanting to give any interview, and in fact, closing down completely. And the book has never been published in English. And I got it translated. And it is very interesting. And it not only deals with crashes that are not well-known in the literature, but it deals also with his interpretation of photos taken from rovers, which we've sent to Mars, picking out signs of intelligent life. And it speaks also about, as I say, these agreements between the Israelis, the English, the Japanese, and one or two other countries with the Galactic Federation. Now, the only problem is that we just don't know what his source of information was. And therefore, it's very difficult to evaluate what he said. I spoke at the time. Well, presumably, he would be the source of information if you're that high up in the space program. He was, but then you want to know, well, okay, so were you briefed by American intelligence? Yes. American intelligence officials or counterparts in NASA? How did you acquire this information? Yeah. Because he says some really out there stuff. I'm combining the press interview he did and his book. But he says that an elliptical craft that was found in 2000 BC was discovered, or sorry, it was dated to 2000 BC, was discovered in Comanche Point in the Grand Canyon. And so there's all these conspiracies about why, you know, parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted zones. And so he sort of, like, attempts at an answer at that. And then we've had 30 UFO crashes to date. And he says, yeah, we have agreements with the Galactic Federation. And then he talks about bases on Mars. Yes. With humans and ETs. He says we've flown to Mars. Right. So I guess that throws back, obviously, lots of questions. You know, well, how is the, you know, the reverse engineer, how successful is the reverse engineer? How successful has the reverse engineering program been? Are we in some kind of agreement with some non-human intelligence that will allow us to use their craft? What is Navy Space Command? And all these questions are, of course, you know, up in the air. Yeah. And we can speculate about it. But I obviously, I say in my book, treat this a little bit with caution, because unless we know the mechanism, by which he purports to have acquired this information, we just can't evaluate it. I think that's right. I think that's right with a lot of UFO research. And I was reading your book, and you lend a lot of credibility to the Majestic 12 documents, which are these documents that were sort of released in tranches from the 80s to the 90s that describe this sort of elite military intelligence and science committee under Truman and Eisenhower that deal with the UFO issue. And my understanding is that they were released, as kind of a counterintel initiative under James Jesus Angleton, who was this longtime, you know, spook, Alan Dulles acolyte in the U.S. who, you know, professionally lied and liked to throw people off the trail and that sort of thing. And yet, you note that there are some things in those documents that line up with real historical artifacts, diary entries that came out years later, which is fascinating. I'm perfectly willing to subscribe to the view that some of those documents might, not be genuine, but I am firmly of the view that the vast majority of them are. And first of all, let's just take the argument that these were some counterintelligence exercise by Angleton. And there's another gentleman that's mentioned who's still alive, a certain admiral who I won't mention perhaps on live, who's supposed to have been part of this exercise. Well, who's that? I was, Bobby Inman is supposed to. Oh, part of that. Allegedly. I mean, this is what people say. Yeah, but that's true or not. Who says that? Well, I've heard it from a number of people and I'm not saying it's true for a minute. Yeah. That's a rumor that has gone round. Yeah. But I really don't buy it. So first of all, let's just look at this as a counterintelligence exercise. If Roswell happened, if a craft was recovered, as I'm firmly convinced it was at Corona, if it was then recovered, and the subject of a highly classified reverse engineering program, and that is your biggest secret, one of the biggest secrets in the United States, the last thing you are going to do is to give credence to the discovery of that craft and of the reverse engineering programs that have been set in train. Maybe or maybe not. Well, can I give you my counter argument? Sure. So the 70, the 60s and 70s saw peak distrust in the American government. You have, you know, the church committee, you have Watergate, you have Pentagon Papers before, you know, both of those things. And you just have a lot of irreverence and distrust of the American intelligence apparatus. And so in the 80s, I almost think there was like a deliberate strategy on behalf of, you know, the CIA and sort of bodies like that to flood the zone because they realized they weren't seen as, you know, good narrators, you know, solid narrators anymore. And so what they put out would inherently be doubted. So if you actually put out the truth or put out things that are adjacent to the truth, you're sort of inoculating the public against, you know, actually believing it. Whereas if some irreverent open source person were to preemptively put it out, then, you know, people might actually believe it. But I don't know. What do you, what do you think? I still think you're going to protect this. You're not going to put it down. But there's, there's other actually independent evidence. So the Truman directive, which initiated MJ-12, was allegedly signed on the 24th of September, 1947. And you can go to Truman's diary. You can go to Forrestal's diary. I don't think Bush has one that's available. And you'll see at 1130 AM on that date, the three met. Doesn't end there. Purchased by December 6th for installation by Christmas. Today's episode is brought to you by Kuo, spelled Q-U-O, the business communication system built so you never miss a call. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. So no more missed messages or dropped conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster, and customers actually feel taken care of. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, which is the premier place where you review these sort of, workspace applications. It has over 3,000 reviews there, and more than 90,000 businesses rely on it. on it to stay connected. So it has an amazing track record. No vanishing, no fusing into calendars, just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones, timelines, and even caffeine levels. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash Jesse. That's Q-U-O dot com slash Jesse. You can go to Truman's Diary. And you'll see at 11.30 a.m. on that date, the three met. Doesn't end there. I looked at Forrestal's Diary even further. Go one week on to the 1st of October, 1947, and there is Forrestal meeting with Sir Henry Tisdall, who is, or then was, the Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK Ministry of Defence. So he and Bush are meeting with Tisdall one week later. And there are then, during the month of October, further meetings with three other senior British Air Force officers. Forrestal, sometimes Eisenhower, sometimes others. What then happens, Tisdall comes back to London. He sets up in the Ministry of Defence a secret flying saucer working party. That working party report is then published, but only one copy. And it says in the preface to that report, only one copy of this report is being published for Sir Henry Tisdall, following the lead from the Americans that this subject should be given as little part of the report. So that's a big deal. And it's a big deal. And it's a big deal. And it's a big deal. And it's a big deal. And it's a big deal. The Tisdall working UFO group a few weeks later. That's wild. That's really interesting. So you have this sort of chain of events from Forrestal to Tisdall. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, that, I think, also, I think you've then got to look at the detail. There's a lot of majestic documents, which are memos, letters that serve no counterintelligence purpose. And you've got to look at the details. You look at the personnel involved in those memos, people like James Lay, Richard Drain, who I've looked at through the CIA reading room to see who they were. And these guys were very closely involved with committees that were actually looking at UFOs. And James Lay actually received from John McCone, the director of CIA, an award, really, for serving on a project which had multi-agency involvement. And all of these documents really tie in with the UFO enigma. And you look at the minutes of other meetings that they were concerned with as UAPs, UFO engagement in those minutes. And they just seem like the real guys. And so I believe Dulles also, his diary came out, you know, only a few years ago or something. And there was an entry there that was consistent with the Majestic 12 document. Is that right? I don't have that to mind immediately. Yeah, I believe so. Very interesting. Yeah, Forrest Dulles, fascinating. He was obviously, you know, assistant secretary of the Navy, and then I think secretary of the Navy, and then he ended up secretary of defense. And I believe the Majestic 12 said he was killed over the UFO issue. Yes. And I've looked at that. By the way, I should just add that as far as MJ, MJ-12 is concerned, of course, you have got other independent corroboration. For example, you've got Eric Walker, who you mentioned earlier, who was approached by William Steinman in a taped conversation. I think it's taped, at least of contemporaneous notes. He says, yes, I know of MJ-12. I've worked with MJ-12. And you've also got, I think it's Alonzo McDonald, who confirmed to Eric Davis recently. Yes, MJ-12 is concerned. Oh, I believe Alonzo McDonald was also supposed to be in Jimmy Carter's brief on UFOs. Yeah. But going back to Forrest Dulles, that is, again, a very interesting adjunct to the MJ-12 story, because he became, I would say, slightly unstable and certainly mentally exhausted. He was dispensed with his services as Secretary of Defense. And as we know, he was admitted to Bethesda Naval Hospital. And the day before, he was held in isolation. Even his brother had difficulty in seeing him. His priest, Monsignor Sheehy, who Forrest Dulles very much wanted to see, never gained access. And his brother arranged for him to be released after about six or eight months. And he was quite satisfied. As was his wife and son, that he was in good health. And the day before he was released, I think the Saturday night, he was due to be collected by his brother on the Sunday. He was found on a flat roof below, having allegedly fallen out of a window on the 19th floor, I think, with a bathrobe cord tied around his neck. That's the day before he was due to be released. Well, and it was midway through transcribing Sophocles poem. Yeah, correct. Which like, why would you stop midway through your transcription and then jump out of the window? And I think the bathrobe also part of it was like tied to the radiator. Yes. In the bathroom, which doesn't make sense. Makes no sense as a way to kill yourself. There was a naval inquiry, which was held behind closed doors because it was a naval institution. There was no inquest. I think the broken glass was found on the floor on a rug in his room. But they called no family members. And his brother was convinced that his that Forrestal was murdered. The official story of the court slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death. Let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be a couple of big, tough Navy guys or big, tough young guys, grab them and throw them the hell out the window? Do you mention also the the office in the CIA that is responsible for UFO inquiries? Do you want to mention that here? Well, I mean, there's the I mentioned a number of offices actually in the CIA. Yes. And one of them is the counterproliferation mission. Is that the one you had in mind? I did. But also Office of Global Access. Oh, yeah. Crash retrieval. So that's the good rename. Now the Office of Global Access has now been renamed. And that basically is an office, which has always existed, as far as I understand it. And its purpose is to either collect items from difficult jurisdictions, or to drop people or items in difficult jurisdictions. And therefore, I think it was an existing facility, which was lent to the purpose of crash retrievals. Now, there are two, I think, very clear examples or credible examples of that office going into work. One, of course, we most of us know about the case of Virginia, and the crash of a UAP there, and the recovery of at least one live alien. And an American plane landed at Campinas and collected the craft and the alien. Now, I think there are moves afoot at the moment to try to recover the airport logs in relation to that airport. But that seems almost certainly to have been an event that occurred. There is so much evidence now that has been uncovered. Yeah, I interviewed the Brazilian defense minister. And he was like, Yeah, I think this happened. Of course, I believe him. Why wouldn't I? Believing that a phenomenon like this exists? Of course. The testimony of totally credible witnesses. Same goes for the doctor and the military officers. They had no reason to make it up. And there we have 15 to 20 witnesses who are alive today. We have we've triangulated the fight flight path of the UFO itself. James Fox has done an amazing job documenting all this stuff in moment of contact. And there's, you know, the chief neurosurgeon of Virginia says he was face to face with the alien being for four minutes. If you go to the hospital region, Alice, where the being was treated, and you say, Is this the, you know, hospital that treated the being, they say, Yes, this is this is that hospital. And so it's one of these things that's very hard to explain away, especially at a in a town of 130,000 people that wasn't like mired in Americana UFO lore, you know, like they didn't have any priors to bias them towards hallucinating something like this. And indeed, I mean, one of the emergency rescue staff actually died. And I can't remember his name. Yes. And they did, um, uh, uh, uh, an autopsy report on him and i think have discovered the um form of um yeah bacteria that was way too strong yeah it was anomalously strong and uh even the guy who was uh the president of the actual autopsy company the provider ipd i think his name is janini he's on record saying yeah the nail of the et penetrated the skin of shirazi and that's what ended up killing him and he was telling his whole family his family believes that he died because he apprehended this et being and it poked him or whatever and it accidentally sort of killed him uh so yeah there's so much corroboration for that it's just fascinating and i actually interviewed the guy who did the autopsy um yeah armando fortunato and he was like yeah i think this is totally legit the infection he had is extremely rare not impossible uh scratch or some sort of contact with an extraterrestrial shouldn't be ruled out so that's one case yep and then there's another case which depends very much on the word of the individual but he's very compelling uh which is the case of jonathan wagant in peru where he was sent he was on on um duty in peru at a a station and was sent to the scene of what they understood to be a downed aircraft and of course it was discovered um a teardrop shape object and felt the presence of the occupants and no sooner had he arrived there it was clearly no craft he'd ever seen um but um soldiers in fatigues arrive as do the department of energy he is um taken under arrest threatened ultimately released but i think very likely uh and i believe his evidence is credible that is another instance of a craft being covered this recovered this time from peru via the same process yeah i think he was a marine and it was operation laser strike and he saw this egg shaped craft in the side of this mountain and then an arm was hanging out and he and he walked up to it and he he felt like this telepathic connection with the beings and a lot of pain and which is a common sort of trope and yeah he was he was i think then uh really kind of intimidated and i think he's never been kind of mentally the same since i felt this presence that it's real strange i guess it was almost like i think they were trying to communicate with me like i guess telepathically it's it's like basically sitting in your car and turning on like an am station you know it's just white noise and it's turning up really high and my understanding is that um so that obviously i i'm not sure this is done obviously presumably by arrangement with those particular governments it's not landing and taking a craft although i believe they've done that uh this is obviously by negotiation either they're paid or they get access to information later i don't know but i think um many countries and i suspect this is true of five eyes uh defer now to the american experience and ability to deal with the many problems that surround crashed craft and possibly biologics and my understanding is that in the five eyes countries um there will be special forces of those countries but who work under american command and will go and isolate an area and wait for the americans to come in to pick it up how does this subject gain sort of broader appeal because it when you talk about this stuff on the one hand it seems like the most important thing ever you're like oh my god there's like technology that's far more advanced than us that's in the hands of the government they're not letting it out there's also you know possibly species beyond beyond just mankind and then on the other hand uh it feels kind of goofy it's like what are you talking about you know and it feels sort of like uh divorced from normal geopolitical discussions like if you're talking about like the street of hormuz that has real implications for you know oil prices globally and stuff and i mean this is very difficult because the the you know the the traditional question do you believe that you have to deal with the fact that you have to deal with the fact that you have to deal with concepts that are so i was going to use the word alien but let's use another word that are so bizarre to most people and you're talking about crashed craft i think it's a little easier to deal with those because of david grush's live testimony to congress and because people have come forward from the intelligence um agencies since just to say yes uh we are in possession of crash craft and i think it is an open secret now that these special access projects exist in the united states with lockheed martin with northrop grumman with raytheon that lockheed wanted to transfer a craft to bigelow aerospace all of these things now have i would say in the last three years come within just about uh the terms of acceptability and normal conversations but then of course they're pushed even further because you'll know from david grush's interview we're now talking about firefights with um uh you know um uh different species u.s personnel started you know getting hurt and dying and so so u.s personnel was killed by these reptilians yeah my whole purpose in writing the book is that i really wanted to have an informed debate and based on reliable evidence and to involve academia and um i think that is absolutely fundamental because this process of um degrading this subject since the 1940s since truman's directive has been so successful that you know you know very intelligent people like i do who have no knowledge of this they don't have a they have no reading list they don't know where to go and there's plenty of good material to read there's no syllabus or course to get hold of or sign up to so we do need to widen um this if we're going to actually you know permeate society and get some proper disclosure through open debate but the discussion is getting wilder and i'm not saying it's not true i suspect and i think david grush by the way is a very credible witness but we are getting wilder oh yeah i mean on joe rogan he said that he saw a video of nordic beings aliens that looked like bluish and you know die and and this sort of fire fight or whatever and then he saw this sort of fight between gray aliens and reptilians and reptilians and the reptilians are in these tic tac crafts and it is very wild it's like uh okay i want to i want to see the evidence on that it's pretty pretty gnarly but then you compare that to his background and i mean david gresh while he was in in government was handling the presidential daily brief so what the president saw every day you know that that was his job to handle um you know he was very high up in you know national geospatial agency he was very you know well thought of by a lot of colleagues like you know carl nell who who helped set up army futures command which is you know their their kind of all their modernization efforts was in you know army futures um so this is not like some guy who's you know honorable discharge you know wacky like you know left government and you know then took a bunch of drugs or something and started making stuff up he's uh he's even you know has a i think uh is on the spectrum somewhat and he has you know i think the the mildest form of of autism uh but he is really just detail oriented and has you know so many like prosaically is actually very very intelligent when it comes to just normal you know conventional programs and technology and science and very high iq so and i think his uh recent interview um really has opened up another subject and we're talking about i mean undersea underwater bases is something which has been talked about for a long time and everybody has spoken about a base possibly off santa catalina island because so many craft have come out of the water and gone back he's talked about others uh and as you will recall in the interview um you know the size of city blocks now once you start talking on that basis and craft coming and going at huge bases under the water if that's right and you're talking about also the number of orbs that we're seeing um you know um around the globe you're talking about the work of dr beatrice villa royal in thousands of uh anomalous small objects which are uh reflective and um appear the day before and on the day of significant events 26 000 miles in space because these flashes that we see and these short flashes and not streaks they're associated with things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective wow like mirrors we are really now not just talking about visitors um or people that may coexist in some secret society we are talking about an operation on a pretty grand scale and this becomes even more alarming i think yeah or maybe it's just been going on for a long time and we're now waking up to it like the rest of the population is sort of waking up to well we're waking up to it but it's on a scale i don't think many people in envisage Yeah, I mean, my bias would be it's not like a new thing that's happening. It's been going on forever. It's being revealed. But speaking of very credible people who are into UFOs that you've, I believe, had firsthand interactions with, tell me about Paul Hellyer, the former Canadian defense minister. Yeah, I mean, as I said, I've been involved in this since the late 60s, early 1970s. And I've been very privileged to meet a lot of the brave pioneers, let's put it that way, in our subject. Paul Hellyer was fascinating. He was Minister of Defense of Canada. And by the way, I spoke to him just before he died in relation to Eshed's claim. And he thought the Americans would be pretty, if I may say so, pissed off, obviously. But he didn't believe the Galactic Federation. That didn't quite ring true to him. But equally, going back, I mean, meeting people like John Keel, John Mack, Stanton Friedman has been a fantastic privilege for me. And to see how this subject has progressed, how the viewpoint about the subject has progressed. And to see how this subject has just grown from what was in the 70s regarded as an entirely extraterrestrial phenomenon to John Keel saying, well, hang on a minute, this isn't extraterrestrial. This is something that is trying to fool us. And it's something that is operating at a different frequency to us. And it is sending false signs in the sky to Stanton, of course, who then discovered. I would say he discovered Roswell, although he certainly was one of those that discovered Roswell, to people like John Mack, who then saw the reality of the abduction phenomenon, which nobody knew what it was. But Mack, an experienced professor of psychiatry, came to the conclusion these were real experiences. So all of these things are slow additives and open our understanding to greater levels. Yeah. You also interacted with. Yeah. He also interacted with Douglas Caddy, who was Howard Hunt's lawyer. Howard Hunt being this famous CIA spy who was involved in Watergate and a lot of other scandals, didn't have the best reputation among the public. But apparently there was this exchange with Caddy and Howard Hunt about JFK's assassination having to do with UFOs. That remark has been published before, but as you say, Caddy was originally Hunt's lawyer and he was the original lawyer for the Watergate burglars. But a judge ordered him to disclose where he got his instructions and he said, no, hang on a minute, that's legally privileged. So he was, in fact, convicted of contempt and had to step out. But Howard Hunt remained very grateful to Douglas. And just before Howard Hunt went to serve his prison sentence at Eglin Air Force Base, he took Douglas out for dinner. And obviously, Douglas was very keen to know, well, why'd you break into the Watergate building, you know? And what was this all about? Why was Kennedy killed? Just by December 6th for installation by Christmas. 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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. We thought the Cubans had documents relating to Kennedy's assassination and that Kennedy was killed because he's about to reveal the alien presence. Now, this is, I think, about 1975. So immediately, you have to think, well, hang on, what evidence was there in those days that Kennedy knew about aliens so that he could reveal it? Well, there's no question. There's no question. And I've drilled down into that. The Rockefeller Commission actually suspected it but didn't find evidence. But there's clear evidence, actually, that Hunt was involved. And there's clear evidence that a CIA contractor called John Sturgis was involved. And I've spoken to the police officer in the 6th Precinct who went to arrest him. For threatening the life of Marita Lorenz, who said that he and Hunt were involved. And he confessed, Sturgis confessed to this police officer that he, in fact, had been one of the gunmen in Dallas. And, funnily enough, a jury who sat to hear a libel action, which Hunt brought against a newspaper called Liberty Lobby for saying he was involved, found against Hunt. And the jury foreman who was interviewed outside afterwards said, well, why did you find that? She said, well, because the CIA killed Kennedy and Hunt was involved. So, I mean, there's a whole track record of this and evidence. And I'm quite convinced the CIA killed Kennedy. I think it is a very strong case that this was to do with a UFO subject. What's the case? Because the Kennedy thing almost feels like this Rorschach test where it's like the anti-communists say it was the Soviets or the Cubans. Some people say it was the mob. Anti-Israel people say that, you know, it was like you made them a registered foreign agent or something. And then you have, you know, the UFO people saying that it's about UFOs. So, what concrete evidence do you have? So, you're absolutely right. Was it the Cubans? Was it the mafia? But I think that it's rooted in this fact that Kennedy was obviously alarmed and perturbed by the Bay of Pigs. And he wanted to ensure that there was no possibility of a UAP being misidentified as an incoming ballistic missile. And to achieve that, there had to be some form of association or agreement with the Russians on this, which would involve sharing information about UAPs. And I think that's very likely true. And that was his view. Because in 1971, surprisingly, we know that there was an agreement between Russia and the United States. states about this subject. If you see a UAP, please let us know. Don't misconstrue it as a missile. If it sets off your detection systems, let us know straight away because we've got a hotline for this. So I think that agreement reflects backwards on Kennedy's concerns in the early 60s about this issue. And he wanted a sharing of information. And you've got to remember that the CIA had- Is there any evidence he wanted that sharing of information? I think there is. I think there were those memos to Angleton and Dulles in 1961 and 1963 in which he's calling for that and indeed to NASA asking them to, CIA to share with NASA more information about this. Yeah. So if anyone can look up right now, the SALT-1, treaty, there is literally language between the US and the Soviets in 1971 saying, we have to coordinate on unknowns in our airspace to make sure that false alarms don't trigger some global destructive thing. There's a treaty that we've signed with the Russians, which basically assures them that we will consult on UAPs, on UFOs. I believe there's also a letter, but of kind of, unknown provenance between JFK and John McCone, who was acting CIA director after he fired Dulles. And he's saying, yeah, we need to coordinate. We need to talk to NASA and get all the data from NASA about unknowns and then coordinate with the Soviets on this. And to me, that is the most important letter to figure out whether that is real because it's dated 11-12-63, which is 10 days before he was assassinated. Correct. You're right. Yes, Dulles had gone by then. Exactly. So if that was real- That is just- I agree. Massive. And then if it's not real, we should totally discount that and figure out what the motive for constructing something like that was. But yeah, it's really fascinating. I've also looked actually at the original, I don't know how many people have, of the burned memo. And I know that is a highly contested document, quite rightly so. So the burned memo is a memo, which one of the so-called counterintelligence officers has written about. And he's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't who was leaking documents allegedly saved from the flames after Kennedy's death. It came from Angleton's safes, allegedly, because Angleton didn't put documents into the CIA registry system. He tended to have a system of about 40 or more private safes, which had to be blown after his death and had to be gone through. We do know, by the way, from official documentation, which McCone refers to, that some of those documents refer to the Kennedy assassination. But this particular document is a memo from MJ-1 to some of the other members of MJ-12, and it is basically saying that, look, Kennedy, they used his code name Lancer, is interfering too much in our activities, and we need to do something about it. Really? That's wild. Not in those words, I'm paraphrasing, but it is to that effect. It's clearly to that effect. And I've looked at the original. It's on paper, it's got a watermark. The Woods, Robert and Ryan, had it examined, I think, by Speckin Laboratory. It certainly is paper of that period. The Inks, a paper of that period, and, you know, prima facie, although we haven't got a CIA control sample with a watermark, it looks prima facie to be a potentially genuine document. What was interacting with Stanton Friedman like? You know, he's seen as this sort of godfather of UFO research and very just hardheaded. He was a remarkable guy, actually. And so I had, number of dinners with Stanton. And indeed, I've got a letter which he wrote to me very soon after he discovered, he'd had this conversation about Roswell. And very soon after he got, I think, one of the first majestic, some of the first early majestic documents in which he says, look, you know, keep this to yourself, but this looks as though it's going to be big. And he was very committed. He left his job, to pursue really the UFO phenomenon. And he really toured the United States and some other countries speaking on this subject. So I don't know financially how he was maintaining himself, but he was extremely committed. And, you know, wrote huge amounts about the subject, traveled extensively, and the kind of person who was an early pioneer of this subject, and the kind of person who was an early pioneer of this subject, that you really rarely find. Life and soul, he was committed to finding out more about this. And Roswell obviously became a major part of his life. This subject of flying saucers represents a kind of cosmic water gate. That is to say, some few people in the governments of the United States, Canada, and undoubtedly many other countries have known since July 1947, that some UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. And he was a nuclear engineer at Westinghouse prior, so definitely not somebody you could say was dumb. Not at all. A very smart guy. And liked to debunk things too, liked to kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, was not one of these sort of everything is everything believer types. What about John Mack? So John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department, and was a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. He had written a biography of T.E. Lawrence called The Prince of Disorder. And just a really interesting kind of polymathic guy. And he got into alien abductions at the end of his life, and you were able to meet him as well. Yes. So he was in London a couple of times. In fact, sadly, he was killed in London on a road accident, a walk crossing the road. John was a, again, very serious, very committed to this subject. I remember, I have actually shared this experience. I am not an experiencer, by the way. I have not seen a craft. And I really base my knowledge of this subject on other people's experiences and on evidence. I'll try to evaluate that totally independently. But I did have a memory, which is rather bizarre. And it's not one I dwell on because I don't want it to interfere with my evaluation of the evidence. But I did have a memory, which appears to me to be, alarmingly, this is what it appears to me to be a memory before I was born, of seeing or being in a place, I'm not quite sure where it was, and seeing a craft return and speaking to people who had come off that craft. I wasn't allowed to go on it. And asking how people were on Earth, people told me it's fine. I wasn't very keen on that idea, but I was told I had to. When you say born again, it was- I had to go back. And I was shown my parents and I was told I had to go back. But it was as if you were leaving Earth? No, I was somewhere in a space. Which seemed very nice, and I really didn't want to leave that space, but I was told that I had to come back. Why back, though? I don't know. Because presumably you had lived some life on Earth already. I must have lived it before. But what I'm saying is that this is an experience I had, which has stayed with me, and I have quite a strong recall of the first 48 hours of my life. That's remarkable. It is remarkable. And then as the plug was pulled, I'm not ascribing anything to this, except it's a memory, but- But it's something I discussed with John Mack, and he was interested in it, and we talked at length about it. What did the beings look like? I didn't see them. They were behind me. And what did their presence sort of feel like? Their presence was, "You have no choice. Sorry." Did you sense what their relationship was to you? No. And why did you think that they thought you had to go back? Was it like they were- Because I was just told- I was told my parents were expecting me, and I had to go. Now, that's rather bizarre. But if, and I don't actually extrapolate from this experience, because I don't want to. It's not something- It's something I put in a separate area and leave there and ponder about. But if you were to extrapolate anything from it, and you were to consider, let's say for a minute, that I did have a communication with a craft coming back and being- People on it who had come back to Earth to check on things, then I guess that might lead you to a conclusion that this phenomenon is linked to the life and death cycle. Do you think it might be? Actually, I do, but independently of that. I do. Yes, it could be, but that could be a personal experience, which for me might give some personal credence to it. I've got no evidence for that, but I do think, yes, that this phenomenon is part of a much bigger subject existence environment in which it encompasses life and death as well. Well, I mean, if you remember that, and I don't know whether this is true, and I'm only repeating what many abductees have been told, that your body is a receptacle for the soul and nothing more. And it may be that it is the constant redistribution of souls. In different stages and in different times. And that redistribution has a purpose. And a number of us have to come back with your soul into this physical body. And so UFOs themselves would be like- A control mechanism, possibly. But obviously, nothing like this is in the book. You asked me about John Mack, and that prompts me to a memory of a discussion. A discussion I've had, and I don't want to base, and I don't base anything on that because- Have you thought of getting a hypnotic regression and going deeper into the matter? I haven't done that, actually, no. I think that would be interesting. Maybe I should, yeah. I mean, the fact that you remember it so vividly is fascinating. I do, yeah. And I remember, actually, something else I do remember is being in my room as a child, and a woman, a woman's voice, loudly recounting the Lord's prayer, in my bedroom. I must have been four years old. And I thought, oh, I can hear the little girl down the street saying her prayers. Of course, I couldn't because that was way down the street. And again, if you were to try to extrapolate something from that, maybe if you link that to what people say as well, if you are in the presence of a being, and you want to get rid of it, mention the Lord's name or something, maybe that was a protection. I don't know. I think everybody has experiences. And the odd thing about this phenomenon is you speak to people, and a large number of people have an experience, maybe similar to what I've said. Maybe they've seen a craft, maybe they've seen orbs, but a surprising number of people have got some experience to tell. Yeah. I would say, go even farther and say they've either have an experience or a bunch of synchronicities or some autobiographical reason as to do their research. And oftentimes people get into these topics because of the stigma of the topic. They have to say things like, oh, well, I've never tried this myself, or I've never had any of these experiences or whatever. And it's just humans are irrational. We're all irrational, even accountants are or whatever. And you get into things due to your own idiosyncratic personal reasons. And it's impossible to sort of separate that entirely from some objective analysis. Absolutely. That's fascinating. You know what it makes me think of when you're like, I'm choosing my parents and I have to go back and you have these beings is this sort of Plato's myth of error, where you experience this sort of. The life and death cycle is you have anamnesis, where you have your soul self, but your soul self is sort of dipped into a body and you forget your former primordial soul self. And Plato himself actually went through rituals, the Eleusinian mystery rituals, which it's called noesis, where you gain knowledge of your primordial soul self. But there's something about entering down into earth, this sort of fall of man, where you forget what you were, but maybe you remember a little glimmer of what you were. I do. It's just always been with me. And that's why I think it's a memory. It's certainly not a dream that you forget. It's a vivid, I think it's a memory. That's fascinating. Do you think it's a coincidence that you remember that and that you're interested in UFOs? Well, you know, funnily enough, I think there's a lot of people, maybe we are all led, it's a possibility, maybe we are all led into this by various different devices. And Robert Hastings, for example, I can't remember the name of the book, but he's written a book actually, which he was very reluctant to write. Yeah, it's called Confessions. Called Confessions. And he is a UFO journalist who wrote a book called UFOs and Nukes, which outlines the correlation between UFOs and nuclear weapons. But he does describe experiences which he has had from a child onwards. And he comes to the conclusion, I'm not sure it's a conclusion, but let's say a provisional conclusion, that maybe those experiences were instrumental in leading him to write this critical book on UFOs and Nukes. And that he was led, that this was all part of the process. Well, that's what's so weird about this topic is the deeper you go, it's like a hydra. You cut off the head, you get five in its place. So like, I think, you know, there's a lot of, you know, I always, you know, if I have, you know, famous skeptics on the show, like Michael Shermer or something, I'll bring up Robert Hastings' book, UFOs and Nukes, because I think it's essentially a database and a book. It's, you know, all these guys, 167 of them, I think now closer to 170, who are, you know, often they have secret clearance, sometimes top secret clearance. In certain cases, their queue cleared, and they have, you know, all sorts of access when it comes to, you know, and they're guarding our new, our nuclear weapons. And, you know, they're radar operators, there's security personnel, and they all see tic tac saucers, orbs, things flying around these nuclear sites, sometimes tampering with the nukes themselves. And we have documentation of the tampering of the nukes. Sometimes we have, you know, actual, you know, radar associated. And it's just too much data to totally dismiss and say, you're talking about inherently the most credible type of witness, because these guys are, you know, the most credible type of witness. Because these guys are all on the personal reliability program, where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen, because they're guarding the crown jewels of defense. So you can't write that off. In this book, I've identified 13 incidents. Oh, really? Yes. Where UFOs have flown over nuclear weapons storage facilities, or have actually shut down missiles. And those are identified in here with this names. But at each time, again, there was no damage done to the weapon systems. They were trying to send us a message. And what could that message be? But get rid of these damn things. And then what's wild is you go deeper into Robert Hastings, and he writes this book called Confessions. And he is sort of, you know, following these synchronicities and has had all these trippy autobiographical experiences that have led him to the point where he's like, that have led him to cover this stuff. And I think it's impossible to separate. And it's almost like you have a world where this stuff doesn't really exist or it's like epistemically closed off to it. And then you have a world where it's sort of, it's really, it's like infused with a ton of meaning. And I think the UFOs deal with meaning a lot. You know, Carl Jung wrote a book called Flying Saucers. And it's all about UFOs, the Sanskrit. Shop Black Friday Appliance Savings and get up to an extra $1,250 off select appliance purchases like GE Profile. Plus, free delivery on appliance purchases of $398 or more. Make life easier with the fridge that doubles as your personal kitchen assistant. Or upgrade your laundry room with the ultra-fresh vent system plus front load washer so your clothes stay fresh after every single wash. Shop Black Friday Appliance Savings with fast free delivery at The Home Depot. Offer valid November 4th through December 2nd at participating stores and at homedepot.com. U.S. only. See store online for details. You know, symbol of psychic completeness. And it's like you're, you're like, you're chasing this like, you know, like kind of hierophany revelation sort of thing. And it never quite comes, but it drip feeds you and you, you sort of run after it. Yeah. And of course, you're right. I mean, look at the credentials of those people. I think Marco Rubio said the same thing, you know. People think about space aliens. For me, is there stuff flying over military installations and no one knows what it is. And it isn't ours. So for me, that's logical. You want to know what it is. I mean, it's common sense, right? Stuff's flying over the top of your most sensitive installations and it's not ours and no one knows whose it is. You should find out what it is and tell us. You know, we've got these people that are, so we trust them and, you know, they've gone through so many checks and yet we're just, you know, their evidence we're, we're not getting credence to. We have to. Yeah. He'll say to this day as secretary of state, what's one conspiracy you believe? He says, I think there are things flying in our airspace that we can't, that we can't explain. And, you know, he's obviously, he's sort of driving American foreign policy right now. He's definitely a real, a real guy. And so I think when people say, oh, it's a PSYOP or something, that to me is even more, even crazier than just admitting that it's real in some ways because it's the most it's the most charismatic psyop by like multiple standard deviations which means it's probably not a psyop like like between ufos and bigfoot it's just such a massive drop-off you don't see anybody in the executive branch talking about bigfoot and um so what is that i don't know um and then why i mean i think an important meta question is why post 2017 and this new york times article taking ufos seriously revealing government programs around them why has have we just entered this sort of you know craziness period where everyone's talking about this topic and it's sort of it is it is it has become much bigger because i think people probably have always been inherently interested in the subject but there's been no real validation for that belief and uh everything seems to have been um a red flag and you can go back for example to the condon committee and one of the principal paragraphs in the condon committee was not only is there nothing to this well this is of course the committee that in 1969 reported and stopped uh closed down blue book and the usa of uh um investigation into ufos publicly and it said look um it was exhorting teachers to say do not let your community be a part of the community and it said look um it was exhorting your students read books about ufos give them no credit um you know pass them on to astronomy and um there's always been a diversionary practice but i think you can see starting in 2017 the new york times taking it seriously and i really would rate highly as a watershed moment david testimony i think that's fundamental and uh yes i think uh people now have got a license uh to discuss this uh without you know being regarded as crazy yeah it's really wild how almost all of the like super anti-ufo spokespeople over the last 70 years have been sort of proven to have a vested interest in debunking this stuff so i'll give you an example you just mentioned edward condon condon wrote um i believe the first english textbook on quantum mechanics and he studied at gottengin with oppenheimer uh in the 20s and so they were long close confidants he even helped pick los alamos as the site of the manhattan project and he uh was actually you know part of a lot of civilian open sourcing efforts of nuclear science and then he there's this sort of kangaroo court with him and oppenheimer where he uses his he loses his uh q clearance he gets stripped of his q clearance and that's done by a guy named gordon gray who's rumored to be part of the majestic 12 so already you have this sort of somebody who seems like he's clued into the ufo issue stripping the q clearance from this guy who's a nuclear insider and then there's this guy guy hodl who's this fbi field agent who's doing all sorts of research on condon in the background and it's in an attempt to sort of blackmail him and that he finds out that condon was sort of you know hanging out with socialists and berkeley or whatever this is during the red scare you know in the you know in his in his 20s or something and they they create this entire dossier on uh condon and then they they give him his q clearance back and he's even in an interview he's like you know they just i don't really know why they gave me my q clearance back it's like they just they just came to me one day um and uh i believe don menzel who's another mj12 member his understudy a guy named lou branscomb hands him his q clearance back and then he's he's sort of tasked with doing this hit job against ufos and so you have to ask was he sort of blackmailed by guy hodl to like you know stigmatize the entire issue and the reason i think he might have been is hodl actually is responsible for the most viewed document on the fbi's website and it's about ufo crash retrievals the memos all of two paragraphs agent guy hodl then head of the fbi's washington field office writes that an air force investigator stated that three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in new mexico they were described as being circular in shape with raised centers approximately 50 feet in diameter not only that each one was occupied by three bodies of human shape but only three feet tall dressed in metallic cloth of a very fine texture each body was bandaged in a manner similar to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots that's the one to hoover exactly and it talks about an air force staff guy literally coming into contact with the you know crew of a of a ufo you know presumably non-human intelligence uh and and a flying saucer i think 50 feet wide and then directed energy having taken this thing out of the sky high powered radar which is it seems like there's a lot to that with modern testimonies like jake barber but even going back then like you know frank scully and and and the aztec crash and so you have this very clear picture with like historical debunkers where like they have a clear vested interest to stigmatize the thing and i don't know it's it's really fascinating but we still we get like we're we're so brainwashed you know we don't we're not good at thinking for ourselves yeah and hottel of course was um uh whatever you mentioned it i mean the the the memory right to hoover and of course menzel was the one who recommended condon to chair that committee ah that's interesting well there you go yeah and that makes sense that lou branscomb at harvard gives him his q clearance back because you know he's working for menzel and menzel was caught destroying astronomical plates yes uh uh in the 50s which is now you have you know tris via real at stockholm university finding all sorts of transient ufos in the at the palomar observatory which was you know contemporaneous with the harvard observatory so and she discovered actually a very interesting uh autobiography by a woman called doreen hofflight uh who uh was studying or working with menzel and describes actually at the time the destruction of the plates yeah it's fascinating and then he he like why would you if ufos are fake why would you care to write he wrote all these you know i think one or two books that were he wrote um certainly one book on uh flying debunking flying saucers and hill and cutter wrote congratulating him that this should be the end of anybody associating flying saucers with any non-human intelligence that's weird that hill encoder wrote i know because didn't hill encoder then go on to join nycap which was the first civilian research ufo group yeah that's interesting he was also director ring roswell so it's very strange yeah and he would say like you know it's all temperature inversions and space trash and you know i i don't even think you can say space trash at that point because sputnik hadn't gone up but maybe weather anomalies or something and it's like well why would somebody of your sort of stature even lend yourself to this this this conversation if it's if it's fake why would you write like sort of a a debunking book on the whole thing i guess it was you know big at the time you had roswell and other things but and he was very um rude about the witnesses to the father gill sighting in papua new guinea and he described them in the the uh new guineans who made witness statements in very derogatory terms that's horrible yeah it's messed up what do you what do you think the agenda is of these beings you talk about this a little bit in your book and well of course that is um a a very big question and it's something which that i understand as i said the counter-proliferation mission is uh looks at um i think you can you have to stand back from things that we know so um assuming that uh abductions are real of course when you say agenda we're talking about agendas sure because there are obviously different sources of uh different non-human intelligences can you isolate those sources or can we just say that there are factions i think all you can say is there are factions and there may even be factions within factions i mean who how do we know but um certainly as far as the abduction experiences go um then uh obviously there seems to be uh an abs a concern to gather um reproductive organs and um uh matters of that kind so whether or not this is part of a hybridization program who knows you'll know john ramirez the cia former um uh officer has spoken about attending a conference uh given by uh the cia and the archivist i can't remember his name at the moment where he explained that um there had been a genome sequencing in which uh dna from biologics in the 1940s had been compared with dna from humans and they'd found the presence of alien dna or non-human intelligence dna in human dna so what that tells you are they well the fact that these beings might even have dna would presumably make them of the same evolutionary chain as us exactly then he talks also about cia having a active program looking at hybridization so maybe this is one element then there are some rather dark sides to this phenomenon which we haven't talked about in the haven't talked about, but there clearly is, appears to be a dark side to this phenomenon. Well, there's not just evidence of harm to human beings. For example, if you take Calaras in Brazil, there is obviously the human rights issue in simply taking people in the abduction process. Then there is the issue of cattle mutilations, obviously a total lack of concern for sentient creatures because these cattle, not just cattle, it's other animal species have been horribly mutilated. And they appear because they've got broken legs or some of them to have been dropped from a height. So it doesn't appear to be there's a great deal of respect for sentient creatures or indeed for our human rights. Then, of course, there are a whole host of paranormal phenomena which are themselves nasty. Now, whether those are a part of a deliberate part of this phenomenon or whether this phenomenon simply triggers other phenomena and allows them to happen, I don't know. So I think we shouldn't necessarily and should not ascribe benign intentions to these non-human intelligences. They've done very little, I think, to earn that label. When it comes to an agenda, I can't see that they have done anything positive really for us that we know of or that we can certainly see and say, yes, that's in our interests. Of course, there are some things that they've done allegedly over nuclear sites. They've actually reduced radiation levels on some occasions. Some people apparently have been cured after an abduction of some disease which they've suffered from. But by and large, I think we need to be cautious. So you have no reason to believe that these are necessarily good? I don't think we have any reason to believe any of them are necessarily good, no. Yeah. I mean, it's probably, yeah, Occam's Razor would be sort of split between good and bad, and it's hard to sort of say. But yes, a lot of people who have regular abductions, it feels like they want to be sort of rid of it, and it's actually very traumatic. And then actually, if you look at the Edgar Mitchell database on abductions, it's like over 50% have pretty positive, neutral to positive interactions. So I think it's hard to say. I think a lot of it has to do with the person's. It's also, think about like psychedelic trips. How many of them are so kind of gnarly in the moment, and then they're like excavating some or shedding some bad part of a person, and then they come out being like, oh, you know, that was really hard, but I was grateful that I experienced it. I don't know. I mean, there are some encounters which appear to have been positive. I mean, I do remember the Valensole case, for example, if you remember the French farmer, Maurice Masse, who found a sphere in his fields, and they were picking his lavender shoots, and he had an encounter with those beings. Now, Jacques Vallée met Masse, and Masse clearly had a conversation telepathically with the beings, and it appears that they were benign, and that they told him quite a lot about what they were doing, and he would never speak about it. I think Jacques might know a little bit more, but Masse said it's, you know, I'm not going to talk about it. So there are some of those cases which appear to be very genuine, and Valensole is regarded as being one of the best landing cases in Europe, where the outcome and the encounter certainly augurs well for the beings and their, let's use the word, conversation with the witness. You mentioned Prince Philip's inquiry meeting with somebody who he thought was an alien or non-human intelligence who had telepathic communication possibly with him or could read his mind. Have you ever met anybody who you think might be non-human or have that ability? I haven't. And funny enough, Timothy Goode told me that he had. And on a number of occasions, I think he met somebody who did actually, in a crowd, speak to him more than one occasion, but I haven't had that experience. Interesting. What was transpired in the Timothy Goode communication? Just that they wanted to let him know, and they appeared like humans, and I think one of the females in question almost sort of went like that as a sort of pirouette, but they wanted to let him know through communication that they were amongst us and that they could speak to him. It's accepted by some governments that up to 50 or more species have been coming here over the years, and that's not so outrageous. Essentially, they're all human. I don't think there's going to be any disclosure from any European country. First and foremost, because we do not have a program or a policy on UAPs that is public, and our legislative assemblies are not discussing it. Funny enough, since I wrote the book, I have had a number of members of parliament contact me wanting to change that situation. But I think our concern is very much one of defense, and I think that's true of Europe and NATO as a whole. We're concerned about the security of our airspace. We're concerned about the security of our territorial waters. And yes, I know many instances, even last month, of a sighting over London where helicopters come out quite quickly to surround the object and see it off or find out what it is. But we do not have a policy, and therefore, first of all, there's nobody easily for anybody here to go and make a disclosure to as an individual. I don't see the government being at all motivated, able, or willing to engage in any disclosure process. They will defer entirely to the Americans. And that is the way I think the Americans have structured it, in that they are the ones with the history and the programs and the experience, and NATO is very much subordinated to the Americans. As I say, I mean, if a craft crashed here, we would deploy special forces, but it would be Americans who would come and collect it, and there must be some kind of sharing process. And of course, there's a Five Eyes caucus group, as we know, that's met at the Pentagon, and there's sharing between different intelligence departments and signals intelligence, of course. Disclosure, if it's going to come through any government, will be one of the superpowers. And I suppose from the American point of view, obviously, the real concern is, is it going to be China? And is it going to be America? I mean, many people say if it's not Trump, then no other president is going to get close. But from across the pond, my view is I'm not sure that President Trump is truly interested in actual disclosure. I think he's interested in doing something no other president has done. And as long as there are these batches of disclosure showing some kind of anomalous phenomenon, that will do. And I know people say the White House are pressing, but there are too many real obstacles to that. They'd have to admit the legacy programs. They'd have to admit a catalog of crimes, which would not be easy to explain away. Why? Why can't they just admit that there are things in our airspace that we can't categorize? Well, I think they have. That's already disclosed. There are things in the airspace we can't explain. Not by a sitting president. No, but yeah, I mean, I'm not sure that counts as disclosure. There's anomalous. Anomalous here. What counts as disclosure? Good question. What does count as disclosure? Are you going to say there are non-human intelligences that we know about who have visited us? Are you going to say that in our airspace on our relations? If you say that, are you ready for the follow-on questions? Okay, well, who are they? What's their agenda? Do they believe in God? Are we safe? Those are questions that are very, very difficult to answer. And next question, how long have you known it? How did you find out? These questions are danger to any administration because they will involve a disclosure of a wealth of crimes. And I think that's apart from obviously the national security issue of disclosing what we've possibly discovered. anti-gravity, got free energy, all of those issues. issues. So I think, I'm sorry to say, we're going to be in a situation certainly in the forthcoming five years, 10 years. Well, on that somber note, very lucid assessment. I really appreciate your time, Jonathan. This has been a lot of fun and hopefully everybody goes and buys your book. I think it's great. And it's a really good kind of survey level overview of a lot of the stronger evidence over the last 70 years for UFOs. And it also does some really good sense-making around what these things are, which is very important. Well, what I try to do actually is to put within one cover, it tries to serve two markets. One is people who don't know much about this and to explain the different angles of a very complex phenomenon. So you can get hopefully an overview. And secondly, throw in tidbits there, which hopefully is new information to a lot of people. Absolutely. You did. Great job. And yeah, appreciate your time. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for coming through in London. Special edition of American Alchemy. Thanks so much, Jesse. And happy to have you here. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot. And we've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Keep it merry and bright, then make it yours with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Woo. 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