Kiah Stokes Case For MVP, and Atlanta Arena Drama With Ramona Shelburne

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm serious. So he, the Valkyries, two years into their existence. The Golden State Valkyries are one win away from winning. A WNBA title, maybe a little bit of a wake up call for the rest of the WNBA. And in a storyline that was designed specifically for who pets. Kia Stokes is on the verge of being the most unlikely finals MVP ever. Two days ago, sportsbooks didn't even have her listed. And now what fell impossible now just feels inevitable. One came away from being inevitable. She averages 5.3 points per game throughout the course of this series. She scored 13 points, a season high. Tonight with three three pointers, which she has never done before. She's kind of the type of player who spent her career doing the quiet dirty work that wins you games, but doesn't win you praise. She's not really a sports center player, but if you're a coach, if you're a coach like Natalie Nacasi in particular, you love her. But this hasn't been your typical WNBA finals. It's not being defined by big stars, making big shots. It's a defensive rock fight between two of the league's best defenses. And typically, the team that has won the possession battle or for some more most turnovers and grab the most rebounds has typically won that game. And in those particular conditions, it follows that Kia Stokes, who has now blocked more shots in the WNBA finals than any player, would be the favorite for finals MVP when you think about value. When you think about the fact that this is a Golden State Valkyrie's team, that after holding the dream to a season low 62 points, last game, best of themselves holding Atlanta 255 points, 17 turnovers, 29% shooting, 23% from three. This episode is presented by Walden University, whether you're on the court or building your career, getting better takes work. That's why Walden University helps working professionals get the W with tempo learning, so you can earn your degree at your own pace while gaining practical skills through real-world scenarios. You'll also learn from faculty with real-world experience and have support start to finish. Walden University set a course for change. Ready to start? Visit WaldenU.edu today. Certified to operate by chef, tempo learning available, and select programs. And I'm very excited too, because I have the perfect guest to talk about the Golden State Valkyrie's. Her name is Morgan Regan. She does color analysis for the Valkyrie. She also covers a WNBA on prime. She's a co-host of Doos and Moe. She does a little bit of everything. Morgan, I'm just, I'm psyched to have you on. How's it going? How are you feeling after that Valkyrie's win? I, well, first, I'm so excited that we are here and that we are doing this. I am excited that we are doing this after a Valkyrie's win, because, you know, down either way to talk some hoops, whether it was Dream Got the Win, Valkyrie's got the win, but the Valkyrie's got the win. I was at Bahala, obviously, it's taken away by Nationals, so I'm not calling games right now. And I am just like living in it. It was beautiful. When I say beautiful, no, no, no, it was grinded out ugly basketball in a lot of different ways. It's just beautiful, the way that that building is the way that that fan base connects. And obviously with the Valkyrie's getting a win on the home floor in that fashion, taking care of the basketball, holding Atlanta to under 65 points. It was awesome. Yeah, I feel like, look, you're professional, of course. We start there, but you're also ultimately, you're a human being and you are experiencing what has to be one of the most blessed forms of fandom of all time. The Valkyrie's year one, make the postseason, first expansion team in WNBA history to make the postseason. Second year, they make the WNBA finals, and now they are one win away from a victory. You are wearing a lavender, Valkyrie sweater, everything behind you is lavender. Dare I say, do you have a lavender backlight going as well? We're winning today. Okay. Okay. You need to know too, I do do work for the Sacramento Kings as well, Northern California. So I grew up with the Sacramento Monarchs. I grew up with obviously the, the early 2000s Sacramento Kings, Chris Weber, Jason Williams, what made me fell in love with the game of basketball. And then you go to T-Shapitichero, you go to Ruthie Bolton. Ruthie Bolton was at the game tonight at Chase Center in the Bay Area. And so like, I grew up around purple and what's so cool is now that I'm living my dream as a color analyst calling games for the Golden State Valkyrie's. And with that, though, comes a lot of violet, a lot of purple. And at the end of the day, yes, there's just a part of me that once I'm invested into a team, especially when it comes to basketball, like there's, there's no turning back. Like I am a fan through and through. But when I do talk hoops, I am down to talk about it barely. I am down to analyze how it needs to be analyzed. And with this Valkyrie's team and everything we saw tonight, I gave all my excitement out there with the crowd, had so much fun there. But I am down and ready to talk about everything with the dream, with the Valkyrie's, what went right, what went wrong. All right, I believe, I believe, I believe you, but I would also, I'm also, I'm also going to test that line. I'm going to push you to be a little bit of a fan here. I can do it. But you listeners, you can't get mad. I'm doing that. I'm doing that. Um, well, I got to ask, how did it feel? End of the game, watching the crowd rain down MVP chance on Kia Stokes. It's the coolest thing and it's deserved because you look at Kia Stokes at the beginning of the season. They brought her in to be a backup big Ileana repair was going to be the starter. She is pregnant out and Kia Stokes just steps in, goes, all right, well, I've done this role before. I know what to do. But the fact that it's worked out as perfect as it has, has been absolutely amazing. So those chance that she's getting fantastic, she's been doing it all season long. But the fact that she's doing it at the highest level right now in the finals, when it comes to her rim protection, when it comes to her being able to stretch the floor and knock down a couple of threes. And then on top of all that, when it feels like the offense is getting stagnant, she's doing the little things. She's going up and setting ball screens, keeping things moving and going into night's game. And so yeah, all those chance well deserved. It's also not the first time she's gone from being a backup to having to start for a team and then eventually helping that team win a title. She does it with the aces in 2022. I can't remember exactly what injury that was. She also does it in 2023 when the aces expected to have a healthy Candice Parker and they didn't help lead them to back-to-back titles. She obviously, she plays a minor but important role in the aces title last year, guarding a end-of-game possession where she blocks a three-pointer. She's been here before. She's been here before and we talked about it last podcast. I think she's going to be one of those players you look back at and you just realize like, oh, she was present for a lot of winning. She came off the bench for Yukon when they were winning titles with Brianna Stewart as well. She is one of those players at two-year point, does a lot of the little things that help separate. The importance of a winning player sometimes is just overlooked. And I think that's what we've seen from this boundaries team all season long and that's why there's a lot of people out there who didn't get to hear a lot about it because I don't think national media did a fantastic job of covering them all season-long because these big places always want a star player to talk about. The person. Yes. Who's the person? Who's the story? Well, guess what? People basketball is a team sport and there's a lot of people to talk about and there's a lot of stories to go over and that's why if they just dug a little deeper and you go into these winning players and how this roster was actually constructed with all these different winning players, a lot of people like to call them a team of six players, you know, a team of non-stars that just come together, but Natalie Nicosse with the right recipe of these winning players putting them in the right situation like a Kia Stokes. It's like, yeah, she just knows how to play basketball at the high level and you put the right system around her and the right people around her. It's just going to maximize everyone. Yeah, I mean, you see it in this game, right? Stokes with the 13 points. That's a game high for the Valkyries. Veronica Burton ties it and then right behind them Tiffany Hayes, Chachy Zandalisini, have 12 points. Gabby Williams, who is, you know, kind of supposed to be that player. Yeah. Struggle. She has nine points, three for 14, but it ultimately doesn't matter because everybody else picks up the slack and that's sort of how this team works. Like, it's kind of like a symphony orchestra. It's interesting. I also really enjoyed, I know that you were on your way home during the press conferences. Yeah. But there was a moment in the press conference where Veronica Burton was told that she broke the IANA to rust. or it's tie Diana to Rossi's record for most blocks by a guard in a game and her and Kia just look at each other and they dabbed each other up because like Kia also broke the record as well and it was like kind of this Spider-Man meme moment. It was fun. I really enjoyed it, but you see so many of those moments with this team. They do have a togetherness that I think is also really powered this run. They can make a starting lineup change halfway into the series and it's all good. Like that's not a lot of coaches can do that. They don't have the culture to do that. Yeah, that's it. I mean, in sorry, I was like so excited to say that because it's like, yeah, they genuinely like each other and in those moments that you're even seen in the press conference, it's like you get to see that chemistry and that connection connection and not to say like you don't see that from some of these other teams, but then when you don't see that from other teams, I think I think sometimes when we talk about sports teams in general and we talk about chemistry, people think it's such a cliche word. And it's like, oh, do they have chemistry on and off the floor. And then when you talk to former players, they there's so many, especially winning players that talk about how important chemistry was. Oh, what made you guys that winning team? Oh, we had chemistry. Oh, really? Like on the floor? Yeah, off the floor as well. Even with different personalities, there was like this mutual respect and like love for each other. Like you want to play better and do better for each other. So yeah, in that moment that they're dapping up, it's like, yeah, they want to see each other just do great things. Well, it's like what all these teams are going to have a ton of tension, right? Especially defensive minded teams. They're going to hold each other accountable. They're going to yell. They're going to have their moments where they're pushing each other to be better, right? And it's like, what is that secret sauce? Like what gives you the alchemy to be able to survive those moments, to be able to understand each other through his moments, like to be able to push to pull the best out of each other and to make those forces complimentary. And like, I loved what Natalie said as well about holding herself accountable to like she told this story after the game about how, you know, she was truly like after they lost two games in a row. There was a point where she was doing the unthinkable, truly, for this team where she really started to question their heart. Like, do they want this is bad? Like, why aren't they following the defensive scheme? But they had a really vulnerable conversation. They said, truly like, Natalie, we don't understand what you're telling us. Like you're like, you're not really communicating with us what we want. And she sort of took a breath. And I think she's great listener. I think that's one thing with her. She's going to listen to her players after a loss, especially after a loss. Yeah. Like she's not stubborn with her game plan. At all. I would say like with that too. Like she's been doing that all season long too. Like where she's just like takes feedback and holds her. Sometimes she would hold herself accountable after losses. I'm like, okay, you don't need to put it all on yourself. But it's like you're saying she's so good at listening to her players and taking in and communicating. And when you have that communication with a manager or a boss or anyone like that, it's like, it's just going to make your entire system that much better when you can collaborate with other basketball-minded people. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to talk about, I want to talk about how Kia has shut down Angel Reese. There's no there's no way to put it. Just for the series overall. This is before today's stats, but they're they're outscoring the dream by 21 points for a hundred possessions when she's on the floor. And they're being outscored by 19 when she's on the bench. That's Kia Stokes. That's by far the most dramatic figure on the team. Like by a high measure. Like it's it's kind of a denial. The dream shoot 19% when she's a primary defender. Angel is shooting 23% with her as a primary defender. And here's the thing that I think like in order to actually put what Kia Stokes is doing into context, I think the thing that everybody needs to understand is that before these last two games, Angel Reese was in the midst of one of the most unprecedented exponential offensive improvements that we have ever seen. Like people from ESPN were making charts about how exponential this improvement was. She was shooting 68% of the rim, 40% from three. This is not the Angel Reese that gets clipped farmed. This is not the one that you know you're accustomed to seeing rush shots or clank lay ups or like have hasty turnovers. Like she was on the top of her game at a level that we have never seen her be before and really had you having conversations about like, okay, we're in and we can still have those conversations, right? Like but we're having these conversations like, oh, issue at top 10 player. Like people are retroactively talking about how she should have been first team all WNBA. And I think those first three, like those first three games, especially the two that they won, like they revealed her potential. And I think I think in the time since though, Kia's been revealing her limitations. Like she is just a timing on the blocks, the timing on the drives, the ability to just she's so strong, like Angel tries to go into her. And it's like she glances off of her. Like Angel glances off of her and goes off of balance. Like that's how strong Kia nurses. And she's like shrunk back into that version that like got her like the worst just tractors think that she is. And it's completely changed the series. Like Angel became the offensive engine for this team. She was the person that they were throwing the ball to. She was leading them and scoring. She was there. She was their paint production. The attention that she was getting was creating open shots for everybody else. Like this was becoming an Angel Reese offense. And that flip has completely switched now. And like like I think that said after the game, Kia is not going to take full credit for stopping Angel Reese. But like I think the tape bears it out. And I think the numbers bear it out. This is Kia Stokes. Like you have a couple play. There's one possession where Cheshire drew the charge on her. Yeah. I think I think that one thing that's interesting through the course of a playoff series when you are looking through like so many scouts. Like I'm sure you've seen this in other series too. It's like when one player figures out a player like the other the other sort of start copying her and doing that doing that same thing. And I think just like it sounds so simple, but just staying between her and the basket and like just being really strong and not letting yourself go into the restricted area. Like that's essentially what Kia has been doing. That's what Cheshire did in that position. And it's kind of like now we're kind of at this place where it's like can can Atlanta response? Like does Angel have a have a response? Well, and that's the thing with Angel Reese. Like hey, I love her game. I love her game when it's mostly under control. And with that, I think there's a lot to it because you have to still remain the emotional leader that you are while staying under composed or staying composed. And with Angel, there was a few times tonight where she kind of took herself out of it, right? Getting frustrated, doing those offense fouls. And then there was a time when she had a look from three that I thought she could have taken. I think she's done just such a fantastic job adding that to her game this season where even me as a basketball fan, I'm like shoot that. Shoot that confidence because if you're that if you're that threat from the outside still in a game like tonight, you know, you're going to have to respect that a little bit more and make sure she's getting a hand up because you knock one of those down. And it's just okay, it's a swing play. It's a swing possession. I mean, this was possession by possession tonight. Like every basket, every second counted when someone had the ball on their hands. And obviously Ryan Howard was able to be that person tonight. And that's what you want to see fantastic. I think she can be an offensive force, even more so going forward. But Angel having a big game is so important. Angel being a threat and being able to be on the floor, so important. So Kia definitely took her out of that gate out of her game with her strength, with her link, just kind of messing with her. But where I will give Kia credit is that I thought a lot of the rotations and a lot of the strength and the bodies from Kayla Thornton, even at times, Chatchee, Veronica Burton, Handsy, active hands, getting her hands in there. Whoever it was, you're just seeing this activity everywhere when Angel Reese would get the basketball. And that would just mess with people. And so maybe for Angel, like the one thing for her to do is just be a quicker decision maker when she does get that ball. If she's not going to be that force and go to the basket through Kia Stokes and maybe get her in the chest, like look to kick it out right away much quicker. But yeah, I think they completely took her out of her rhythm tonight. Well, I think that point on the three pointer is a really good one because she had two in the other game that she passed up to that were open. One was one of the first possessions of the game. And I don't know why she passed it up. It's not like she started to miss that shot by any means. She's just stopped taking it. And I think that they are respecting it a little bit more, but they're not fully respecting it. So I think that there's a level at which this has become a little bit mental for her as well. Like two games ago look like she snatched their confidence. And now I think we're on the other end of it where I think honestly sometimes it feels like she sees Kia and she just wants to pass out of the post as well. She doesn't want it. It's almost like she saw the numbers or something. And it's like, you know, those numbers aren't for you. Like don't worry about the numbers. You change the numbers. Like, this is actively still a series that's happening. And I do think, look, I think, you know, I'm not taking Atlanta out of this by any means. Like, they're going to go back, play at home. I think that they play a lot better in front of their home crowd. And I think that, you know, they're obviously going to be motivated to be better. Their backs are against a wall. But I do think that either they need to up the physicality or they need to, or I think I think part of the work that they need to do, they started to do in the press conference because Angel and Carl both thought that she got fouled a ton. So I heard that. I heard that. And like, I'm seeing the physicality on both sides, though, because I can hear how frustrating that can be. But even with her, I'm going, if you don't lower your shoulder into Chechi or Kia or whoever it is, download. Like, you just utilize your size and absorb that contact that you, you know, use your strength. Do what you have to do to get closer to the basket and finish. Like, you're good. You're, you're the one that's going to be talking smack and getting to the line for an end one. But instead, I think that was in her mind a little bit with the physicality. Like, I'm not getting these calls. So this is not fair when really it's like, no, no, no, if you're not getting those calls, lock in and do what you need to do for your team. And I think that's always true. But I do think that there was some, a few, a few moments where it was particularly gregious. I think I also add, I think the reps had it out for the Valkyries in the last game. The Valkyries won anyways. So I think your point, like your point is well taken there. Yeah. Um, I think that this was a game that didn't have a lot of free throws. In general, the reps were letting a lot go. Um, I think what was it? Yeah, they 14 to, four, like 27 free throws in the game collectively. I think that refereeing style when you have a bunch of physical bigs to throw at one player is obviously going to favor the team that is like throwing all of all of that at one player, right? Um, at the same time, there was some grabbing and pulling, there was also just like a couple calls there, or I was like, ah, that's, that's just got to be a foul, or the like it did feel a little bit like that. And I think this is one of those things where angels just really strong. Like this happens to strong post players sometimes where things don't necessarily get called your way. Whereas let's say like you're, you're driving and you're like a Tiffany Hayes and you're also an expert flop. Like you'll get that call, you know, like I do think it's like the nature of, um, how dare you? How dare you call her? She flop so much she almost hurt. No flop. Point of emphasis, even for the NBA, if a head snap, that's not a flop. It's not a flop. You're just because they say it's not a flop. Doesn't mean it's not a flop. That's just trying to save their players' ass. Uh-oh. Oh, we're Morgan is coming out. Yeah, exactly. I see her. I see her. Yeah, I see her. I tested these. Yeah. No, but I honestly, like, I hear you on that. And like, I like, there were, there was, for example, like I saw Izzy Borles at times use her body a little bit more and not move her feet. And I'm like, they're not going to call that. And I'm kind of like, I like that. They're not going to call that because you're, you're just allowing them to play. She's not grabbing Veronica Burton at that point or Tiffany A's or whoever she was guarding at that at that moment in time. I think it was even Gabby Williams and like Izzy Borles had like super active hands and was even knocking the ball away a few times. Yeah. But like, there was other times where I'm like, you're not moving your feet. Like that's, that's deemed a foul, but they're not calling it. And so then I think with the boundaries at times, maybe there's more grabbing that is happening or like active hands that are hitting and coming across. And so that's where like the dream are getting a little bit more frustrated because they're like, these are chaotic movements that are going into us, which is not allowing us to do different things we need to do. But what we've all been there, if we've all been in sports and we've had those officiating crews where you're just not getting what you want, like, it's yeah, what easier said than done, but staying composed and staying with it and like working around it and making the adjustments that you need to make is exactly what you need to do. And Angel is their their emotional leader. They need her to stay in there and to stay composed. And that's why like when she's lower in that shoulder, it's like, yeah, they're going to call it on you. And I can, but I also, like, truthfully, like I can understand her frustration too. And she's putting it out there, her and coach, semesco, are just smart. Yeah. Because I mean, hello, you want to be sure that chest match. Yeah. You had to tell the refs the next the next officiating crew that, hey, they're being physical. Watch out for this. And by the way, there's no one that tell me on B is just really not going to want a championship trophy. We've always said at a time when there could be like, I don't know a timeline on how long the celebration could be. So I wouldn't be surprised if the rest to call things the other way. And the next game. We had, we have, we have a hole, there's segment on that. So we don't even have to talk about it. To your point, the dream's offensive execution ever since Natalie changed the starting lineup. The starting lineup that has so much more ball pressure, especially when you throw them Chechi into it with Kaila Charles, as well, those lineups have been super effective. They're long, they're athletic. They get into the passing lanes. They make it really hard for the dreams to run their actions. Ever since then, I just feel like the dream haven't executed their offense. Like part of the reason Angel Reese's shot die is so difficult is she's also just like not getting touches. Like you see Jordan Canada, you see Alicia Gray, you see them kind of scared to give her the ball down low. Like I think they're just afraid of turning it over. I think they're second guessing themselves. I think that's a big reason that the Valkyries won the turnover battle today. And I think they had like what 21 points off of turnovers. I was a huge aspect of why they won this game. But yeah, I think you're, you're right. Like they are getting rattled by the by the ball pressure. And there is a degree to which like, look, this is a WNB finals. Every game has been more of a rock fight than the last one. Like it feels like a boxing match. It's just like two teams that are like punching at each other, seeing like who can up the ante more. So it is on a level up to the dream to match that. And also, I think Carl Smesco, you have to use your challenges better because you wasted a challenge on Alicia Gray on that on that movement off of a screen that was like called a charge. There's no points involved in that. It was already going to be tricky to get that overturned because of how much contact there was on that. And then the next play blatant foul on Alicia Gray that doesn't go called, you don't have your challenge anymore. Then you also, you also could have challenged the angel Reese Chechi call that was a charge as well. Both of those would have resulted potentially in free throws in a foul going the other way. And those are the things that you just have to be a little bit more mindful of as well. Like you just can't be you cannot be wasting one of your most important bullets on something as meaningless as that. It can't be an emotional call, an emotional challenge. You're so right. And that's why I like I my the strategy with challenges. I'm always like, you save that. You save that. There's no like if you are in the regular. If there's no points and it's not the fourth quarter, I don't want to see it. Yes. Like that is what that is what that tool is for. I'm totally with you on that. But I think even going back to what you're saying about the dream and their offensive strategy tonight, I mean, they shot 29% from the field. And I'm sure Natalie Nakase would be like, yeah, it was purely our defense and our skills is what she would say is the skills. And there we go. And it put in a lot of it. Yes, was absolutely the deep and just disrupting everything blowing up so many different actions and forcing them to turn over the ball 17 times like we said, I think that's been a story for the Valkyries and some of these losses is they're turning the ball over and the dream we're doing a good job of capitalizing off of those mistakes. And tonight it was the Valkyries taking care of the bass bowling nine turnovers six points for the dream. Oh, and that's the other thing I was going to say early on in the game when Angel would just take off like dream would get a stop. Angel would take off and they got the ball to her. I think twice going in transition. And then she got fouled. I think both times or maybe made one felt whatever. Yeah, both of her buckets were at once. Yeah. And I was just like I kept thinking they need to just keep releasing her just go, Angel just go go in transition. Get those buckets because it felt like but again, the Valkyries do a good job of making in-game adjustments and being like we're not letting that crap happen again. And so like someone was back and ready a little bit more contact with Angel not allowing her to just release and go in transition. So yeah, all in all, it just felt like the dream and their shot selections were definitely disrupted by the Valkyries defense. But I mean, get the ball in like Ryan Howard's hand when she's shooting like that over anyone, just you to like her length and elevating over people. I'm like, you got to get it to the hot hand. And if it's not Angel resource, it's not, you know, Jordan Canada had a pretty good night, 12 points, those five assists as well. You know, she's a great facilitator. But Ryan Howard, I was just like get her the ball and get out of her way. Yeah, I also feel I feel like they don't have a lot of confidence in their half-court offense right now like they're trying to push the ball up in transition against a defense that's ready for them and that is actually the cause for a lot of their turnovers. But it felt like they just wanted to be able to get their shots off in transition because they just didn't want to deal with the Valkyries half court defense. Try and get nobody wants to deal with the Valkyries half court defense. But it led to them forcing some stuff. And what concerns me is that Smasco after the game. Look, and this could just be coach big. He could just he could be making a bunch of crazy adjustments as we speak right now. But he said that he feels like a lot of it came down to misshots granted on a level that is true. I think like Isabel Borlaes was like, oh for six, missed some layups like Jordan Canada, Miss Leopse, Alicia Gray, Miss Leopse, they were what like six for 26 from three. Definitely, they missed some shots that they would normally make. But I think that there are just some structural issues that they really just have to go back and look at like even on the defensive end like one of the things that is like I would be frustrating to me as a dream fan would be the fact that I feel like Natalie has taken Angel Reese out of the game defensively by not putting her in pick and rolls. Like and that's part of the reason that Gabby Williams has gotten off. It's part of the reason that Veronica Burton has gotten off. They're attacking Jordan Canada now. They're attacking Alicia Gray now. That's just a says disadvantage. And it's also just like a health issue with with Alicia Gray as well where they're like kind of just finding that matchup over again as a post in Naz Hillman as opposed to Angel Reese who are great like you know to the best one on one defenders in the world. And I was hoping that I don't know we would seem to see some zone or some scram switching or just some more insistent on not switching certain matchups. They keep switching though and they're just losing that matchup. They're losing it to Kia. They're losing it to to basically every player. And it's honestly at this point I just feel Jordan, I feel bad for Jordan Canada. Like it's just it's on her fault. But she's she's five six and we're in game five of a series by the time game bible is around everybody knows everybody's tendencies. That's what you're seeing on both ends now. Like the timing on the on like that's why you're seeing the block party from from Veronica and Kia as well. It's like the durability that time this all out right. And then on the other and it's like they're actually giving the dream new things that they have to look at. Like where is the dream? They keep running the same stuff over and over again. Well, I'm sorry. Gabby Williams is is one of the best players in the world defensively. You can't do that. She knows what you want to do now. And he's tried. He doesn't want to play his bench. He plays Tina Powell for like three minutes today. He throws Medina O'Cott out there. Medina travels once we don't see her again. Like he has no confidence in his bench. Yeah. And it's it's it's it's a little late in the game to throw to throw them out there. I get it. I get it. Like I don't even know how I feel about it. I feel like if you want to put them out there and you truly are going to have confidence in them and let them like play through a mistake or two. Yeah, throw them out there. Maybe throw them out there at home. Maybe that's a better setting for them. But if you're not at this point, just don't play them. Like we're hitting a game six and seven. You're you obviously have the fatigue disadvantage. You're not going to make it back with like two or three minutes. So just do what you actually feel good about doing at this point and just can see the depth advantage. Like they beat you out there. Depth has come in to play with the Valkyries all season long, right? And in the strength and numbers. But they've also have had they've seen some of I guess their weaknesses or flaws with some of their bench like Janelle Salon not even playing a non-existent at times. But like I heard it's so sad. I love Janelle. Oh my gosh. She is sharp shooter. And defensively though at times if you're lost like Natalie's like I am not I'm not doing I'm not dealing with that right now. Like we cannot do that. And even with someone like Caitlin Chen, we've seen her have a big game or two in the post season. Obviously it's not happening so much in the finals. She had that travel as well when she slid her foot. But like with this and with the Valkyries, they still have other depth. They have other players that are stepping up which are not only being able to change up the starting lineup and everything else. But looking at the Valkyries offense because we were talking about the dreams often than what they were doing. Valkyries offense. What I noticed tonight. They were running through multiple actions. You see Tipez with the Iverson cut and then you'd see a Kia with you know a downstream and then you see someone out move around and it was just getting the defense to keep staying active like dream defense had to like have their head on a swivel. Always be paying attention. Now when you did see it get stagnant at times. Those were the times that it was late in shot clock for the Valkyries and it was like they were just kept along the perimeter and dream were like cool get the rebound push the ball out. Let's go. But as soon as the Valkyries made that adjustment of like no, no, no, gotta keep moving got like gotta make sure that no one knows where we're going to be at any time on the floor. Everyone's back on their heels. Someone gets switched on Jordan Canada. Let's try and shoot over her attack or go downhill like it was just a great job of what was what's the thing they say they say like empty the tank they say empty the tank empty the tank on the floor just everyone was emptying the tank full force tonight. Well it's also you know when you have rested your stars throughout the course of the regular season and the postseason you can also afford to ride them here as well like that's the other thing that Natalie changed after they went down to one was like it's like a seven eight person rotation and it's the same thing she throws Chen out there it doesn't work out what Chen she takes her out. For like for the most part it's really a seven player rotation right now but that's like they're the ones that are well rested right now and I don't understand quite how because Veronica Burton is taking one charge on Angel Reese per game and she somehow just gets up every time I need her core workout. No like what is it what is it how is she made as a human to be able to take the hits that she's able to take all season long and just like get back up and then play some ferocious defense and then I don't know break a defender down and get an and one on the other end it's she's it's crazy it is crazy and that's why I think Natalie Nikose likes her so much because she's like she knows that she will do that no matter if she took a punch to the face or someone landed on her like she will not stop until that game is over. Honestly did you see that play where pal pal gets into the game Veronica Burton's like oh there's someone much weaker than me on the court. I'm gonna dog walk her down there and just draw a foul. It's just recognizing the personnel and knowing like okay I know where your confidence level is I know what I know what I can do against you it's like I don't know just some of these players on the balcony it's like the strength that they play with it's it's a strength obviously physically but it's also mentally too like they they mentally just charge and just go like Tiffany Hayes for example I mean her ability to get that first quick step and just go downhill and whether she takes the hit and or exaggerates the hit a little bit she is fine she's still like making contact getting physical and just going she's 37 years old and you're just seeing her just go go go and I think like if you're on an Natalie Nikose team like that's what you have to do if you want to play. Yeah even Gabby Williams look Gabby Williams is not been your prototypical superstar for the Valkyries but she's been exactly what they have needed. This game starts with her getting two defensive rebounds that would have been offensive rebounds if she had not gotten to them like Naz Hill and Angel Rees both had their hands just about ready to grab a ball and she just pluck them pluck them out of the air that's also I think that's really great tone setting from your leaders well when you know that's something that the coach is emphasizing you come into the game and you immediately say okay I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna be the one that gets these boards well now it's that's the precedent for everybody else as well so that's that part of it like as much as it yes it wasn't a Gabby night but I also think that she made some important shots I think in the third quarter second half when she felt the dream run coming I think I felt something activated her in her where she was like no we're actually not letting gonna let them like make this close or make this a game that and in fairness like the game was in two possessions the entire time the score was so low that a six point lead felt big yeah but she kind of made sure it stayed within that like she gets a great drive and an end one goes left on Ryan Howard just like kind of insinuate like picking your spots insinuating yourself into the game but also not like sometimes players like her they feel so much pressure to be that person that they end up like getting in the way of everything as well and she's never doing that either no and we've seen that happen throughout the season at times where the players will go okay we're gonna rely on you Gabby get the ball and get out of your way and like sure Gabby can break down a defender and then even stop pop in the mid range and like have a good look like yeah you trust that but you see what this team can execute when everyone's working together in sync with multiple actions and that's why it's like they didn't go to let's just get Gabby the ball and let her cook it was no oh the whole team is cooking right now whoever gets I don't care if it's tip I don't care if it's a spray a KT for three like Oh Chetchy you got Jordan candidate on you just go girl do what you want to do and like you're exactly right though Gabby with the six rebounds like just still being able to do the little things making sure she's present on the defensive end even if it isn't her best shooting game like that, that is just so very important. And I guess when we do talk about Gabby and that, and especially what type of player she's been for the Valkyries all season long, like you have that type of game from Angel of just like staying in there on the floor, even if there's frustrating moments and like there's other things not happening for you, just keep doing the little things because you're so good. You are such a threat out there. And if you are out there, it just makes things scary. - No, that's a great point. That's a great point. Before I let you go, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? - Well, I do have to give someone, I always have to give someone up to Kylo Charles because I think she is one of those underrated players like that I talk about all the time. And I've literally have had people say, who? I'm like, oh my, oh my, tell me you don't watch basketball without telling me you don't watch basketball. Like, come on people. Kylo Charles is one of those players that could be so good on any roster, but the fact that she is on this roster and she had one person, a coach or a GM, an organization believe in her and believe what she could do in her skill set and gave her the opportunity and the chance to do it here. Like, she's been able to flourish and now she's starting in the finals. Like, she's just one of those players that I don't think we talk about enough and I think what is so fun about this team is that there's always multiple people to talk about. And I just think that's what makes basketball so beautiful and that's what makes the boundaries so fun. - I mean, she wasn't in the league in 2024 then in Dallas, she's waived multiple times. Like, they just kind of bring her in and out of like, if you remember, Dallas was just decimated by injuries last year. And she plays a pretty interesting role on that team, kind of similar to what she's doing here with the boundaries, a little bit more of like a three, four on that team. But someone who I think her game just really translates to where the WNBA is going. Like, as the game gets faster on the offensive end and you need players that can like switch on to speedy guards and like not get taken out of the game. Like, players like her are gonna get increasingly more valuable. I thought her entering the starting lineup really put the lid on Nas Hulman as a three-point shooter 'cause KT was kind of getting burned by that and KT was also, she was getting burnt by Ryan Howard as well on those switches with Kyla Charles, that's not the case 'cause she has a lateral quickness to keep up with the player like Ryan Howard but she also can mock it up with Angel Reece. Like, having that level of defensive versatility and toughness coming off your bench and now starting but also being able to identify that she has that quality and then nurturing it and then knowing the moment to unleash it is I think that's just something that speaks to Natalie Nacossi's just vision, her like how detail oriented she is and also just like these little things that she sees in players and I think it's because she's kind of the same, right? Like five foot one and a half walk on to UCLA no one thought that she had it, right? And I think that's allowed her to sort of identify things that like the average person might miss. - Absolutely, she's been able to, like Natalie Nacossi showed her work as a player and like her work ethic and what she could do but it always just takes that one person actually like believing in you and see especially a decision maker that can like see that and go, oh yeah, I'm gonna give you this situation. I'm gonna give you this opportunity, you fit. Like I feel like Natalie Nacossi has that same, I love that I keep saying her full name, coach Nacossi, whatever. She like, she has that same vibe with you. - Yeah, you just call her Nat. - Yeah, she's doing that. - I know, that's a good one. But she also sees that same thing in Caitlin Chen in her work ethic and everything else. And like obviously she hasn't been able to show up so much in this post season like she wanted to but I think that belief just goes so much further than anyone could ever imagine. And I think it's really helped players like Kyla Charles be able to be a starter in the finals, be able to be ready. She's just absolutely fantastic. - Yeah. - All right, what is the thing that other WNBA franchises need to take away from the boundaries? - Ooh, well, gosh. I mean, there's an everything obviously. - Yeah, I was gonna say one like defensively offensively. No. - Well, as a franchise. As a franchise. Like two years in going to like be one away from winning a title. I feel like that's gotta put the rest of the league on notice. - It's crazy. And I think what you can take away or what you can see. It really does matter the type of people. You put together and around each other. Like obviously I gotta travel with this team and with like the people behind the scenes. PR, coaches, you know, security, everyone. There are so many, like it could almost make me emotional 'cause there are so many good people within this organization that like you just, you don't get that all the time everywhere. Especially when, you know, there's a lot of money involved and it's bigger organizations. And I think they've just done a really good job of putting good people all around. And that sounds cliche and like, you know, people. But it truly creates a culture and an identity that ends up being a winning product on and off the floor. And so I guess even for the Valkyries, they picked a whole bunch of players that make sense. That makes sense with each other, with each other's personalities that are going to want to go to battle every single night for each other for Natalie Nacossi. She's always said she loves hard, but she's also going to make sure that she is like coaching the way you need to be coach. She's gonna tell you how it is. And when you have someone that can tell you the truth and they hold you accountable, while also giving you the love and the respect you need, like people don't understand how far that can go, especially in a sport and especially in a team sport like basketball. So yeah, I mean, making sure that you have people that truly like each other and want to be around each other on and off the floor is really important. - I love that. I think that philosophy is also going to get put to the test in a real way. Now that they are going to become a free agent destination, it's gonna be really interesting to see if anything changes. - Oh, I think things will change. I totally think, I think if you run it back in sports all the time, like you're just, you're not necessarily going to grow, but what the Valkyries did from year one to year two, there was still a lot of continuity. And that's not normal in the WNBA, but I also think with this free agent market and everything else, like I think it's gonna be a fun little off season in the WNBA. - I actually have very fun off season. I think it's gonna be a very fun off season in particular if you're a Valkyries fan. I think you're one win away from a title and then you might get a star or two on the team afterwards as well. - It's a good time. - It's a blessed fandom. It's a blessed fandom. - It really, in hey, all the people there deserve it. There's so many monarchs fans that come from, you know, Northern California from Sacramento and drive up there and drive over there. And I'm telling you, it's just, it's so deserved. I, it's what a fan base, it's amazing. - That's so cool. That is like, that is definitely one of the cooler aspects of watching the Valkyries and like even you, you're a monarchs fan as well. Like it's like just to be waiting for this team then to get one that ends up being this good and this like aligned with like kind of building out the WNBA in a way it should be as well. - So you experienced it, like you, like that's where I met you and like you got, you got to like feel it. And like I was, when I was there tonight, I was so dramatic, I don't get like this. I cover, I call games, I do sideline, I cover sports, you know, I cover basketball. But like, and there is a fan, I'm not joking you. I'm not joking. I literally almost are crying like three different times when like the starting lineup was being announced and fireworks and fire is going off. I'm like trying not to cry. I'm like, what are you doing? And then, and then and one happened like early on the game and I'm like, why is this making me emotional? And I'm telling you, it's just like the spirit and the liveliness in that building. It's just the love for basketball and for each other and community. It sounds so corny, I sound so corny, but yes, that. It is, but it's like once you're actually there, you feel it to be true. - Thank you. - And it's unlike any other sporting event or experience. - Thank you. - Okay. - I think Minnesota links games are very cool in that way too, but also because I have a lot of the same elements, I think this is something with a lot of women's sports events too. Like there is just something about it that makes it very hard not to be romantic. - Okay, that makes me, thank you for making me feel validated in this because I seriously was questioning myself. I'm like, why are you about to cry? Like what is, and it's so, and that's exactly it. - I don't think being at LeBron's like game where he beat the all-time scoring record made me as like emotional as, as like seeing a game at Valhalla honestly. We're seeing like a Liberty finals game or Minnesota links playoff game. I think I think they're just, they're both great experiences. Don't give me wrong. they're just different. Yeah, like, so obviously as you might know, the Sacramento Kings don't win a lot of games. And in the last year that yeah, no. And so like, it took them 16 years to make the playoffs. And then when they finally did a couple years ago, but that was that was cool. And it was, it was so, and it was the beam team in Mike Brown, leading the charge. And it was so beautiful. They went to a game seven in the first round of playoffs with Steph Curry in the Warriors. Steph hits 50 points in game seven at Golden One Center. And I'm still telling you like as much as I like was so sad and depressed, experiencing what I experienced even with Sacramento Kings fandom in like in those moments, there was something that brought me back to my childhood that was so special. That was so beautiful. And even Steph knocking out of the 50. I remember just being like basketball is beautiful. And so like for Valkyries in calling their games and watching this style of play all the time, all the time. And then you know, round this fan base, there's something just very similar and special about that that I felt. And I'm like, I need this in my life so bad. That's amazing. That's really beautiful. All right, we're going to take a break. And then when we're back, we are going to talk about all of the ways in which the WNBA is not meeting. How beautiful this moment is. Thank you, Morgan. I appreciate you. Thank you. Welcome back to the WNBA show where I don't know if this is going to shock anybody, but it appears that the WNBA has gone zero days without a completely avoidable logistical, logistical fuck up in a high stakes moment. This is a league that has spent years arguing that it deserves to be treated as a major sports league. There's a new media rates agreement expanding, franchises, the WNBA finals are doing ratings that we have never seen them do in a multi game WNBA final series. And now in the most important game of that series, a potentially title clinching game, the dream will play the Valkyries at 12 30 p.m. Eastern 9 30 if you're in the Pacific zone, by the way, which by the way, a lot of Valkyries fans are. This has been a fascinating story. An arena logistics operational problem story should not be fascinating. In more most professional leagues, these things go off so seamlessly that it's not even in the purview of fans. But in this case, it has a lot to say about the relationship between the NBA and the WNBA, the pace of the WNBA's growth relative to its infrastructure and the larger question of whether the league is meeting its moment in the spotlight. Here to talk about it all is Ramona Shelburn, senior writer at ESPN, wherever there is palace intrigue, wherever there's just high level operations, wheeling and dealing ownership groups being involved, you're going to find Ramona. You're going to find her getting this story. So we're very lucky to have her on Ramona. Welcome to the show. How's it going? Good. How are you? It's been an interesting weekend. I'll say I'll say that. It's been fascinating. Honestly, Ramona, I will say every time you weighed your feet into the waters of the WNBA, it's usually for an interesting reason. So the bat signal went off. We saw you, we saw you get tabbed. So obviously this is not a great scenario for the WNBA. After a lot of negotiation between a lot of parties, we have landed on a result that dare I say nobody likes. How do we get here? I think nobody was going to like any resolution to this. There was no good options here. One source we talked to over the weekend said to me, every solution has problems. Every solution to this situation has problems, which was there was one solution of moving games six to Friday, which is an open-dated State Farm Arena, and then which makes games seven have to move all the way to Tuesday of next week because the Warriors have games on Sunday and Monday. So those days of Chase Center are not open to like the Saturday, Bujala that everybody was excited about. Halloween at Chase Center, that's still on. But it's exciting if there's game sevens going to be Bujala. I know Gabi Williams is excited. Halloween is her favorite holiday. I think it's fun to get a game seven, that'd be fun. But we're focused on game six first and there is going to be a game six because the dream won game four. Sorry, I'll back that up. Because the Valkyries won game four, right? And even the series here. And so this is now a guarantee, and you almost got to the end of game four and said, hunts, like they should have planted plays. And I think it was brought up, obviously, when they were adjusting the times for game three and four. And it was brought up at the time, like, hey, should we work on six now? You know, it's super complicated. Should we get that settled now in advance? And clearly that didn't happen. Maybe they had a brief discussion, but it was like, let's see if we get to a game six. And then all of a sudden, there was a big scramble on Saturday and Sunday. I was like with my kids at a pumpkin patch, and I was like, reporter, I'm like, what are we doing? That's on Sunday. It was a, it was a very strange and yet I would say avoidable situation because, you know, my colleague, Janay Gummikei said on NBA today, there were eight days between the semi-finals and the finals. Like, there was a big layoff where everybody could have looked at the schedule and got, oh, some issues here with the Atlanta arena and the finals days. Like, I think my, I came into this because obviously I can, I've covered the W for decades, but, but I, I know NBA folks as well. And this is a crossover kind of story. And a lot of the NBA folks I talked to somewhere were involved in this and somewhere were not involved in this. I think the general sense is everyone in the NBA is willing to make accommodations to move things around inconvenience themselves. But this last minute stuff is really hard. It's really, it's like you have the trains rolling. Like, you're scheduling an NBA game where 17,000 people bought tickets and people are scheduled to work at a certain time. And, and there's broadcast rights and there's, and there's travel plans for two different teams who are coming from two different cities. And there's just a whole, there's a whole situation that has to go be a soul. You can't just say, we'll move that game to Friday, but okay, but if you move the game to Friday, then Atlanta's got to fly overnight to Milwaukee for a back-to-back now, but then that game could be moved up if the Brewers or it's like a, you know, could you move it? Could you, could you, could you have the men play at 1230 and the women play at eight? Well, not exactly because both the calves and the hawks who had a little play on Thursday night at at State Park Marina. They are in different cities on Wednesday nights. You can't ask them to play. I think the, I think the calves are in Cleveland and the hawks are in Miami. So you can't just have them play a night game and then 1230 start the next day. It's not right. And so all of these things might have been solvable if it had come up a couple weeks ago. Certainly people looking at the schedule should have noticed this and maybe they noticed it and didn't want to deal with it or maybe they noticed it and hoped it wouldn't be a problem, but it became a pretty big problem. Yeah, I mean, even beyond the eight days or 10 days, probably like where we had the dream up to 0 in the semi-finals, the schedule for the playoffs went out in December. There was a lot of time to get this done, which, I mean, it begs a question Ramona, do you have any insight on to why exactly this was all left to the last minute? Yeah, so there's like a blame pie, right? In radio, we call it a blame pie. Like who gets 50 percent, who gets 35? It's half their fault. It's kind of everyone's fault. Some of this is also just the growing pains of being a new league, where you have owners of the dream that are not the same owners of the hawks who operate the arena. So they have to all get on the same page. The hawks owners have been trying to do right by the dream this whole time. They understand why it's important for them to play and stay up for Maria. They wanted to do everything they could to facilitate this. Just wasn't done enough in advance. I think even the Cleveland Cavaliers who sort of got it thrown into this, because they're the ones who were scheduled to play on Thursday. What I understand, they were willing to move things around and do what was needed to be done. So I think, look, there's going to be both theories. Is it the dream ownerships fault? Is it the WMBA's fault? And by WMBA, probably we're looking at Kathy Engelbert here, because she's in charge of the WMBA. Is it the NBA's fault for allowing this to go this far down the road without stepping in here? Because these are NBA teams involved. I know that I know the NBA got involved in solving these problems at this last minute here, because they involved NBA teams and NBA arenas. But how it got to the point where it's a last minute situation where people are pointing fingers at each other and who's going to have to sacrifice and etc. It just shouldn't have got it. It wasn't going to be easy to solve either way, but it didn't need to end up doing it two days before. Well, it almost sounds, it feels like they just kicked the can down the road hoping that it wouldn't be a problem, which is very, it's very telling about what really been the last three years of Kathy Engelbert's regime here, very reactive, never proactive. And there's also just an element to which I think negotiations that don't have a good option generally tend to take a lot of time. Correct. Who doesn't want to, who doesn't want to, who doesn't want to hope that they don't have to eventually make a decision? I'll tell you that decision. I went to, I've had three days now working through this story. And at first I thought it sounded a lot like we were going to do this Friday Tuesday option. And then last night I thought it was going to be the gateway center. It seemed like there was some momentum to like keeping the days the same and you know there's a broadcaster involved here too that's USA Network. They have to change the broadcast schedule if it goes to Friday night and set Thursday night or now Thursday afternoon. I don't know what runs on USA today USA Network at 1238 Eastern on Thursdays I'm not sure but I think that's easier to deal with than Friday night. And I would say like none of these solutions were great like optics of playing a potential championship game in a 3,500 seed arena not great not great at all. But think about they're they're going to sell this out. Like I had a plan already actually they're really close like literally that they went on they went on the pre sale and they were like there was a line of like 20,000 people. She's like I just logged on eight minutes after they went on sale and I'm 20,000 in line. Like I think there's a huge demand. And I think I think ultimately the best two options were the Friday Tuesday scenario or the matinee scenario. And there were going to be a lot of people upset with either one and they had to make a call. I think they playing the championship game or a finals game at the 3,500 seed arena. That seemed like the worst outcome for everyone was as we got down to it. And I know there were some push to get the hawks and cabs to move their game to Friday. I actually think that would have been more of a possibility had this been brought up a couple weeks ago. Yeah. Because there's just I mean there's players safety issues here too. You know this could be an NBA like you got back to back. So you got guys playing or travel. This stuff is scripted out in a long time in advance. You have to let people who bought tickets know you have to get the arena staffed. Like it's just it's just there was even talk of moving that game. The Thursday night game to Cleveland. And then making it back up later in the season. I think the hawks initially have a game in Cleveland at the end. It's sort of the last three games of the year. Another one of their meetings wouldn't work because it's an Amazon prime game. But you could move it. But you could have the the cabs and the season on a three game road trip through Atlanta and make up the home date. But now you're also telling all these people about tickets to that game. Sorry, we had nothing for you to go to. Like it's just it's just hard to not to mention like the travel like hotels like I mean just looking logistically. You got a if you're an NBA team you got to they usually stay at five star hotels. They need certain kinds of rooms. They need to make meeting rooms available for them to have you know to have film sessions, etc. Like if you change the dates those are often booked. I mean I know I know these don't sound like good compelling reasons and everybody was willing to try. But it's just it's it's really hard to do it at the last minute. Well, there's a million small reasons right there. That's right. The the putting together a sporting event is a huge undertaking. And I mean frankly there's nobody who knows that better than the commissioner of a league or a team in the WNBA or the NBA. So again, it's just I mean I I don't really even know what to say about the fact. Yeah, this just wasn't talked about prior to I was joking with our with my producer that I feel like we talked about it was talked about it just wasn't dealt right. It just wasn't dealt with and I think that's the main point is like you know something can be an issue and you said it earlier it's pro-active versus reactive like if if there would have been scenarios they're between that eight day break. I mean even if you want to go all the way back to the semi finals it was several weeks ago when it lands up to you oh like you could have contingency plans okay if this happens for game three we're going to do this this happens game four we're going to do this game six like what are we going to do so that people have they they can make arrangements and plans and so we got the best of the bad option you can argue if it's the best of the bad options but I think it's better than playing I don't know what do you think you you can't relate you do you think playing mid day on a Thursday I mean clearly they can sell there. I don't love that if it's a champ if it's a title clinching game I just think the the TV rating implications are really brutal to be honest yeah um especially because one of the fan bases which is also a rocky fan base in the Valkyries is on Pacific time they're going to have to wake up at nine thirty um and watch and watch these games you know a lot of them are going to be at work right they're not going to be able to watch like you had a prime time slot on USA Network I don't know how USA Network frankly agreed to this they're probably some of the biggest losers in this outcome but yeah look these these ratings have been breaking records television wise now I can understand the optics of it I do think one of the things that's unfortunate and all of this is that the Atlanta dreams arena is thirty five hundred people it is the smallest arena in the WNBA and also I'll give some cover to the Atlanta dream here I think they're taking a beating for this look I think that this is a franchise that in the last five years since Larry goddess diner has taken over has done eight tons of work to up their infrastructure they have focused more on the player experience and they have on the fan experience that's why Angel Reese wanted to go to Atlanta that's why Ryan Howard and Alicia Gray and Bri Jones reside this summer it's why they have one of the most beautiful cab sheets in the WNBA they have done a lot of work that hasn't necessarily showed up in the optics and you have franchises in the WNBA the Indiana fever are going to be playing in a brand new practically but what is it matter if you don't have these staff they're working there like you know like so I do think there's a lot the dream have done right there's a reason that they're in this position the biggest mistake that they made was that they didn't have the foresight to realize how good they were going to be and how fast they were going going to get this good um but also let's pause there then do you know how far out in advance you have to hold final states nothing here a year out so I mean you didn't even have a CBA that's a great point right but we didn't even have a CBA we had this hurried agency we had this long CBA this is like I think when we look at this I I think it falls on Kathy Engelberg to me to to about in front of this a couple weeks ago you know when when we're in the semi finals or in that eight day break yeah contingency plans it still would have been bad options yeah it just wouldn't have been this scramble that takes away from nights from from Monday nights game it shouldn't be we shouldn't be talking about this right now we should actually not be the the finals are we're recording this an hour before game five yeah this is not what we should be spending our time doing but this happened so often in the WNBA where this is a league that's been in perpetual growth and crisis for the last three years and in these big spotlight moments they manage to just fall on their face over and over again um and honestly it reminds me a little bit it does actually take me back to CBA negotiations which were also done on the last minute that's why we had the speed run towards a season as well it's probably why Kathy wasn't out as soon as the negotiations were over there simply just wasn't that that kind of time um but this is a commissioner that this this these are the weaknesses right yeah like the communication the ability to wrangle people together negotiation building like that's these are the things that she saw those at yeah and and like look I think it's um I think when we look back like you know we often talk in the NBA about how the games used to be on tape delay do you remember how the finals won't take away and like it's it's brought up as this can you believe that right like the finals were on tape delay and like people didn't I think we'll look back on this in like five or 10 years and be like remember what I had to change the three finals games location they played the the championship game at you know 930 Pacific you know what I mean like I think we'll look back on it in this sort of like these are growing pains believe um this is also look there's there's two there's a bunch of concurrent things happening there are independent owners um look I remember the last owner of the Atlanta drain Kelly Leffler she was a senator that was the that was a big focus of the bubble um and the players rising up against her and they and they you know they campaigned against Ruffa or Warnock and sorry for Warnock um look that this this franchise has been through a lot right so the independent owners have come in here and have done a really good job operating this team but we're also at a moment where the interviewer of independent franchise ownership is changing and there's a lot of NBA franchise owners who are now buying into these teams this is why you don't see this issue with the Valkyries right because they're built on a platform that had been established by the Warriors but the Valkyries did have this issue last year they had the same lack of foresight without good there were going to be because they didn't expect to make the playoffs that's their first year they had to yeah they had to move their game to the Saps Center yeah look and and we have the same issue okay why are we playing the finals right now instead of two weeks ago well there was a huge gap in the season with with Phoebe right yeah i mean that doesn't happen in the NBA we don't take three weeks off yeah international competition it's this league that's kind of in the middle of of of sort of starting to be considered a priority right like even the fact that we're we're having this conversation there was a time when things like this would have been would have been considered impossible you couldn't even get all these stakeholders or you know how it came to the Long Beach pyramid right right playoff games that get a little gathered not even for a laker sometimes it's for a laker preseason game and other times it's for like Disney on ice and it's a first playoff road I went there I covered I two or three times it's how have you you've done that right I bet you should ever I never went to Long Beach for the first time I mean like and this was I'm trying to think how many years ago it must have been well they played there as early as early as 2024 they played the started the start of their season there yeah so this is this is all recent history this is all the same pain's like the dream and the at the dream and the hawks are gonna have have more of an affiliation next year. I think they've they've they've got a deal where they're going to operate with state farmers, their home arena next year. Yeah. So some of these issues are just naturally going to be solved because they'll already be in more coordination with each other. But also, let's go back to the CBA negotiations, which part of the holdup was was, hey, you're losing dates, you're backing yourself into these corners, right? Like there's certain dates that could take in up like one of the, I mean, I had, I had a truly strange conversation over the weekend, where we were looking at this concert that was on Saturday at State Farm. And this art, I think it's young Nico, do you know who that is? No, I don't either. I'm not, I mean, I looked up some music looks, we're going to watch legit artists, you know, play, well, if you're playing State Farm, yeah, yeah. And also, they're the same artist was playing in Miami on, I want to say Thursday or something, they were playing, they're like, they're back to back in Miami and then Atlanta. And I was like, could they move the, there was some talk like they buy the concert out on Saturday, but then that's like so many days between game five and game six, but like, could they switch the young Nico concert from Miami to Atlanta? I mean, there was like all sorts of craziness going on. And part of this is these dates did locked in. I don't know when that concert was booked, but well, could you have moved the hawks heat game to a different day or you know, there's just, there's a lot of limitations here. And a lot of it's because this WMB schedule was not done until the CBA got done last minute. Yeah, yeah, you also, you were, you talked about this on ESPN and then you also tweeted about it later. What is the actual possibility of if there is a championship one on game six that the team who wins might not be able to actually, okay, so celebrate on the court. So I will say that if money warning, there was some real concern about the timing of all this 1230 start time, let's play this out, we're at 233 o'clock finish. If there's overtime, could be even later, we're looking at a 330-ish post game celebration 4 o'clock. And this isn't this is state from arena that's not just doing double headers. So I know there was some discussion about what do we do if there's an actual championship one? Is there time to have this champion some celebration on the court before they have to start turning the arena over to the box game, which is now been pushed back to 8 p.m. start. I think there was some real concern Monday morning. And I still hear concern. However, I can say there's a there's a strong resolve to say they're going to celebrate on the court. But it had definitely gotten to a point where there was some discussion of like practice quarters or can they do it outside the arena or something. I mean, that you have to now plan for this. Like what if there's an overtime? What if there's double over? Right. What if this game just takes a long time? Like, how much time do they really need to turn the arena over for a box game? It's quite a lot. Now, when I go to crypto.com arena all the time, they're used to this. They they do Lakers King's changeovers all the time. They've done flippers Lakers all the time. It's usually 12 36 30 on Sundays. Are those the start times? This is a that's a that's an arena crew that is used to that. I think they've even had triple headers that arena. This is not something that is normal in Atlanta. So, you know, they want to give themselves enough time. But it's it's there's a I can say this there's there's a resolve to get this done there. They're saying it will be on the court. If there's a championship celebration. Let's just see how long it goes. Yeah, last time we see how long the celebration goes, I mean, you know, I don't know, I was sending the trophy, making quick, you know, yeah, yeah, but like guys guys, guys, I think it's like, everybody wants to be right now. Music starts playing. Would Angel Reese is still talking? I mean, I'm just bang this out of my head. What if the dream wins? You know, really like home, right? The weirdest thing I've ever covered. I was in Cleveland, 26, 26, no, 26 year, the RNC convention was there, 2016. Yeah, I think it was 2016, 2016. So the Republican National Convention is in Cleveland. And this is a, this is a way too long. The story and I'll try to tell it quickly. They essentially, they're having that, they have the RNC scheduled. You had a bid on the RNC hosting their RNC convention like years out. So like, I think it was the same summer before LeBron came back to Cleveland. So it's it's like, you know, he comes back to Cleveland and and we still didn't know he was going back to Cleveland, right? It was earlier that year. So at the time, the cows were pretty terrible. They didn't have LeBron back or anything like that. And Dan Gilbert has to promise, hey, this arena is going to be available for these dates. And the other city involved with Dallas and Mark Cubans, the owner of their in Dallas, he was controlling the arena. And you can go find this story I wrote about it at one point. And and Mark Cuban's like, well, we can't guarantee the maps aren't going to be in the finals. I mean, they had a good team back then, you know, they were pretty solid. And I think they went about as far as they can go, but Cleveland's like, we guarantee this arena is going to be full, this is going to be ready. And I remember though, this was this was the game gets over. I'm pretty I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to remember who won, which year? I think this is 16 of the cabs one they won in seven. It's not the year the cabs one. It's the year the warriors won. Oh, wouldn't the convention have to be an election year? Yeah, it has to be right? Yeah, try it. Okay, but 16 let me find your story. Go find the story. It's a good story. I know I'm right. I know I remember being in the arena. And the game is over. And I'm and they're kicking me out of the arena because they have to turn, they have to turn the arena over for the RNC, like literally you're setting up the Republican National Convention, the next morning. Right. A pair of kings in a Trump, yeah, June, June 8th, 2016. Good title to good headline. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, but they were clear, I was staying up all night in that arena trying to finish my story. And they had to like, turn it over. Yeah, like we got to turn this over the RNC's coming. Yeah, and it was, it was just the wildest thing I've ever been a part of. But they, they did it. They got the, they got all the basketball stuff out. And they wasn't just a turning it over story. It was, it was political story as well, the big arena. Right. Oh, right. Because it's a complete. At least, so it's a whole like so, I'll be dealing with that aspect of it at least. I know, like, though, but like, yeah, think about it. If they win the title, like, you're going to tell them that, okay, take the celebration outside. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's daylight. It took, I mean, look, day drinking is a huge winner in all of this. Three, it took three to three and a half hours to get it done for game four. It took like 2500 people. And I guess they've done it before. Three, three, now, yeah, maybe it's a little bit more seamless this time around. Let's say you wrap everything up by like four o'clock, you can get it done. It's going to be, look, it's going to go a little bit touch and go. Yeah. And then those teams are coming off. We're going to have to be nimble. Yeah. Like those teams are coming off the second. This is the second night of a back-to-back from all the calves and the, and the hawks. So they're probably not going to have a lot of times people skip the shoot around on the second. Back-to-back. They do not even just a shoot around, but like, what about the pre-game warm-up? Yeah. Like a lot of times start reading up to 90 minutes. Yeah. I mean, fans use it. Yeah. I mean, that's why you move it back to eight o'clock. But I've seen them do it in L.A. I've seen them. You've done it too. They sure have done it up. But there are many times on it, like 3630. Like, yeah, they're on it like right away on it. But this is like maybe they need to bring in the, you know, some guys. Yeah, bring in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bring in some folks from L.A. New York down to get this done. Yeah. Last. Well, I wanted to ask you. So this is the kind of story that you can kind of make it about anything, right? That's part of the reason it's become so fast. It becomes like a WNBA can't get out of its own way story. Or the WNB expects to NBA to solve its problems against story. It becomes like a, oh, my, it's like, you can spin it into a grow story. Like, this is actually good news. And so it'll never happen again. And I've heard that sentence too many times. So I don't really believe it anymore. But like, at bottom, Ramona, what does this story mean to you? Like, what does it say about the league and where it's at? I actually, I'm going to be a glass half full person here. Okay. As much as we're into the dysfunction, I think it's a really good sign that we're even having this discussion that there's enough demand amongst dream fans. Like, when I was covering those games, the Long Beach pyramid, I'm not that many fans. I don't know if they stole that arena. I was lost more than stable center, you know? And now I just, I mean, I'm getting text from people saying, this is that this is, you know, they're there 20,000 in line after a pre sale. Like, could this have been handled in advance better? Whatever. Yeah. But I think it's just reflective of the demand here. I mean, you know, you, this is not the ACEs. This is not the liberty in this. This is, this is the dream of the Valkyries. These are not like the blue blood. This is not the fever, right? These are, these are two kind of, I, what you know, start really good team, but both upsets, right? Second, you're franchise. So the fact that this is even happening, this, this is just to me, emblematic of the rapid growth of the league, how quickly things can happen. And, and this is a phrase, I'm going to, I'm going to credit somebody here. He will never hear that I credit him on this, but I just love this saying. You know, I was talking to Bruce Fraser. He's one of Steve Kerr's best friends on that warrior staff. He's like, you, everybody close on the queue. Because he's always asking questions. He's literally the most interesting man in the world. He's like, he really is guy, right? He really is. It's also awesome to see him after. Yeah, he's so cute. Bob on. Yeah. And I remember Qo, he says, like, you know, sometimes he just need a bigger pot to grow in. And I say, oh, yeah. Like that's it. That's a good line. Oh, that's very true. And I just think like the league is it's grown up now. And it happened really fast. And there's lots of wrong hands. But there's a lot of like the fact that you got real cooperation from the Atlanta Hawks three separate times when they really didn't have to other than, you know, trying to do what's right. You got real cooperation from the Valkyries. And who are also owned by the Warriors owner? Like, that's good. The calves are on board. Like, I know that there's a lot of people that went into this that they really didn't have to get into this. And they did. And to me, that is a good sign for the league. And you just need a bigger pot to grow in. Absolutely. Who do you think really held the cards at the end? Um, I think Kathy Engelbert was had kind of maybe the final-- I wouldn't say the final say. But I know there was a-- Mark Tatum from the NBA was very involved here because they were dealing with NBA arenas and NBA teams. And I think he and Kathy Engelbert had a lot of conversations. There was a lot of conversations between the owners and the team presidents. There ought to be a conversation with the broadcast networks in the arena. And, you know, there was just a lot. But I think we got to a point where Kathy Engelbert made the final call here. I'm guessing at that. I'm guessing. OK. She's certainly the one who's got her name on the statement. Right. And I agree. Sort of felt like, no, you have to understand the reporting structure. And this is something that we're going to get into whenever they pick a new commissioner. You know, she's theoretically-- she's the commissioner. I think she's the first commissioner, right? Everybody else has-- And the president's reported to Adam Silver-- Yeah. --or David Stern-- or been called a president. This is the first commissioner. Yeah. So is that-- is that-- is that going to stay? Is it going to be the commissioner or the president? Are they going to be a deputy commissioner? Are we going to have, you know, like, what's the reporting structure going to be like going forward? You and I both know Adam Silver's always involved, right? And Mark Tatum is the NBA guy who was-- he was the one on the weeds for the NBA side. But I think all of them deserve a lot of credit, because there was a lot of people to bring together on this in a very short amount of time. And you can go back into the blame pie of why it got to be the last minute. But at the end of the day, they got something done to where 17,000 people can watch. And I think optics of playing in an arena like that was like, what do you want to have fans turn away at the door? Like, you can have a watch party someplace else. Like, that's terrible. Like, I think this is-- this or the Friday Tuesday would have been pretty good. Yeah, the best of the worst, I guess, right? Yeah. One thing I was thinking about is, why not do the Friday, Sunday, with a Sunday being played-- like the Sunday game 7 being played in November 1st, and just do like the quick turnaround in the calories arena? So look at the Warriors schedule. They play the Clippers that day. Right. But it's a Sunday. Right. So I brought that up to somebody over the weekend, and I go, could the Warriors and Clippers do the matinee at 12.30? Yeah. You wouldn't obviously have-- I guess you could, but it's a quick turnaround, right? So you're playing Friday night. You don't want to have the matinee Sunday, because it's not enough time between games, right? Oh, true. Yeah. It's a 36-hour time. That's your point. And it worked both for the Warriors and the Clippers, because the Clippers are in Minnesota, but not the night before. It would have been a little move up time for them. And I think the Warriors kind of moved it up, moved up their game. That was another thing. I don't think that ever took steam. Got it. That picked up steam. Because the only reason you're avoiding the Sunday afternoon final was because they wanted to avoid election day. Which has-- I don't know. I can't forget when that started. I think it was 2020. And another third seems to play on election day. Yeah. Yeah. To make a one-time exception and how big a deal is that, I don't know. I mean, I thought I was like, well, they'd have the whole sports universe open to them. No one else is playing that day. Everyone would be watching. It's a late night game. But by the time the ball tips, the polls are closed in Georgia, I don't know. It's a whole other-- I don't know. I think all these things are incredible. I had this discussion with people. That would be an incredible full circle moment from 2020, because the reason that happened is because the players sat out in the bubble, which is also what eventually, Intel, Kelly will start having to sell the team as well. There's just a lot. There's a lot to cry. It all happened really fast. It's been it that way. Fair enough, fair enough. You don't have to answer this, because I can feel-- I'm starting to make you squirm a little bit. No, it's OK. But I have to go in a second, too, because I get to get to get to-- OK, I got to check out something. It's not here. And you go ahead. Thoughts on the commissioner. Do you have any predictions for the next commissioner? Mark Tatum is obviously somebody whose name has been drawn around. I've heard his name. I don't see that this time. Although he's certainly qualified. He's done it before on an interim basis. I've heard a couple of names out there. The one name, Phil O'Key saying publicly, it's Swing Cash. His name, I've heard a lot. Yeah, me too. And there's a sort of-- I've obviously-- we've all heard Neko Gooma Key's name. When I check on that, it doesn't seem like she wants that right now. She wants to be retired and enjoy her life. She certainly enjoyed that. She certainly earned that. I think if she was interested in the job, they'd be interested in her. But I think Swing Cash is the former player's name that I've heard a lot. She's very qualified for it. She had a front office role with Pelicans. And it has done a lot of things. Also, I've heard a couple of-- I've heard a couple of industry people. I don't know if I can say it yet. We haven't got the reporting state to that. But I've heard some names. And then there's obviously some team presidents. Bethany Donovan is a name I've heard. She's the deputy commissioner. See if she wants it. Number one, number two, which would they give her a real look, because she's so connected to-- Right. --I think will burn the previous regime. Certainly, very qualified. I had a whole year in finance and a year of a whole career in finance before she came to the WNBA. And full disclosure, also a Stanford grad like me. Ah, there you go. Amy Brooks, also a Stanford grad like me. It always comes back to that. I feel like I have to disclose that. Yeah. Amy Brooks, she's also in the league office, very well thought of. The name you can watch. But there's a couple other-- let's say industry people have heard that have already started to interview and gain steam here. But I'm sure. But yeah, I wonder how long they're going to go here. You know, how long is Kathy's final act really is just handing out the trophy? Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess she's technically on the job until the end of the year, right? But I don't know. This might be the final sort of blow. If I was like kind of the owners and everybody's dealing with everything, I'd probably be looking at her a little bit sideways right now, because it seems like they were all ready to play ball. I think there's a lot of frustration on how she handled this situation. I'll put it that way, among on all sides. There. But it's handled now. The games are going on, and it's been a great finals, and it's been a great playoffs. It has been. It has been. We'll get a great game 6, I'm sure, regardless of the time. Ramona, thank you so much for making the time. I appreciate it. You got it. Thank you to Ramona Shelburn of ESPN for making the time. Thank you to Morgan Regan. She covers the Valkyries. She does her play by play. And she also covers the WNBA on prime. She's also the co-host of Doos and Mo podcast. She has a little bit of everything. And thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing the show. And thank you all for listening. We will see you after game 6, after we crown a potential WNBA champion. We'll see you.