Keysight Technologies CMD Dr. Joachim Peerlings - supply chain disruptions, AI enablement & vertical integration

[MUSIC] Leading Corporate Transformation. The podcast by VHAU will auto-bysign school of management, powered by PWC. On the transformation of companies and their culture, from decision makers, for decision makers, or from entrepreneurs, for entrepreneurs. [MUSIC] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of leading corporate transformation. We have a podcast powered by PWC. I'm your host, Sardin Ouzjan. And as always, I'm joined by PWC's very own Goryfon Hishhausen. [LAUGHTER] Hello, everyone. Good to be back. Our guest today is Dr. Joachim Peerlings, the chair managing director of Keysight Technologies for Germany, who will share his expertise on corporate transformation. With a market cap of close to $30 billion, Keysight is a technology company with deep roots in Silicon Valley. Great to have you today with us, Joachim. Yeah, thank you for having me here. Thank you. Why don't we start with you? You've been a company insider since 2000. Yes. Yes, so I'm your repealings. I live with my wife and our two kids in Stuttgart, actually close by. It's a nice 20-minute walk, maybe not today, but generally. I was born in Duisburg. I studied electrical engineering. I always had a passion for technical things. And then, you know, moved to Damstadt, where I built up the Department of Optical Communication, did my PhD, and then moved to Stuttgart, you know, and started at what is Keysight Technologies today. Cool. So looking at Keysight's technology, not everybody is aware of what Keysight is doing. Can you tell us a little bit about the history of the company and how this company was established? Sure. Sure. So first of all, my role is I have a dual hat, so I have two hats. One is I'm the chair managing director of Keysight Germany, and then I also lead an industry vertical for Keysight globally that helps customers design and validate components and systems that go into data centers. So just to get it right, so you are leading a business unit across the globe out of the German entity, right? That's correct. Cool. That's an interesting aspect. We don't see that often in American companies. Okay, interesting. We will talk about this later. Yeah. So if you look at Keysight's history, so Keysight traces back to Ulet Packet. So in 1939, Bill Ulet and Dave Packet, they formed the Ulet Packet company in the garage. The first product was an audio oscillator that was bought by Disney for their movie Fantasia. And then they became global in 1959. That was when the first offices were built in Switzerland, in Geneva, and also a manufacturing plant in Böblingen. That was the first time that HP came to Germany. And then in 1966, that was the first time that HP did build a computer. And the purpose of that computer was actually to manage and to control the large test system. And that became bigger and bigger. And then '99, when that business really was a big HP-announced spin-off at that time, Adulent Technologies, which was an electronic test and also the life science and chemical business. And then in 2013, Adulent announced a spin-off of the electronic measurement and bring that business back to the roots of Ulet Packet basically. Ah, interesting. Yeah, that's quite a story. Looking at the company Keysight today, and then was already mentioning some of the facts. But if you look at the company, can you give us a little bit more structure on how you operate today? Because as we said before, it's very interesting if you run a business unit out of a local business. So give us a little bit more on Keysight. How do you operate? What is your business? And how do you run the company? Yeah. So we develop advanced electronic design and validation solutions for different industries. So we serve commercial communications industry, aerospace defense industry, and also electronic industrial, like automotive. For example, automotive is a second vertical that we run out of Germany. And to visualize this a little bit more for the communications business, if you open your mobile phone and you want to change the battery, you would see a lot of electronic components in that phone. And all those components have more likely than not seen some Keysight test solutions. During the design phase, during the manufacturing phase, to build that phone, or if you look at chat GPT, that's on everybody's minds, and to have things running like chat GPT, you need a very fast infrastructure of servers and optical advanced networks that connect different servers that when you send a request via your mobile and device or your computer into a data center, that you get that response back. And all those different components for servers, for optical networks, that is where we build test solutions for to enable that innovation for these different applications. So innovation is at the core of your company. What makes Germany so special in terms of innovation at Keysight? Yeah. So we have traditionally been very innovative, especially if you look at high speed optical solutions, high speed digital solutions. And we have a lot of our manufacturing in Malaysia, consolidated everything that we can build out of Penang, we do. We still have some of the manufacturing for the optical solutions in Germany because it requires very special skills, and that part still resides in Germany. So I think innovative culture, a diverse culture, we have a big side in Böblingen and in Bochum from the acquisition of SignLab for automotive. We have some other smaller sites in Braunschweig, in Dortmund, Hamburg, or Behaching, and overall 56 different nationalities in the team. So very diverse team, very diverse culture, and I think that's a good base for innovation. Out of roughly 800 people. 850 people in Germany. Okay. Wow. And looking at the company Keysight, it sounds like you are organized vertically today. So is that something you were always organized like this, or is it something that was developed and how did you develop it? Yeah. So that was a big transformation. So when we became Keysight in 2014, I think that was a big opportunity to focus on the core, on the roots, and grow in electronic design and measurement. But what we found is that we were organized in what we call product divisions. So at that time, different sites, you know, in Germany, we had sites in Colorado Springs, in Santa Rosa, Santa Clara, all over the world. And each of those teams were responsible for certain product lines. And so we had a range of products. And if you look at a customer challenge, that typically requires a mix of all of those different products. And then you build software and services around all those different products to build your solution. And that task was basically left to the customer. So the customer was talking to multiple touchpoint within Keysight. And the customer to basically organize and get to his or her solution. And that is what we changed, you know, when we said, you know, we need to be from a horizontal product, basically a hardware centric product company to move to a software centric solutions company. And that is when we built those verticals. That sounds too easy. Because you changed your operating model from head to toe. Yes. So can you talk a little bit about the challenges that you were facing during this journey? Because I can believe not everybody was from right from the beginning a full fan of the new setup. No, that's clear. I mean, if you have, you know, 75 years of history, you know, focusing on the product and many teams, you know, their mission was, you know, you want to be number one for this product. And now you say, your products are important. And, you know, we still need to serve the market. But we are really focused on customers. And yeah, I think it's a big challenge to basically pull the company inside out. It was a complete transformation, you know, from a product internal focus to an external customer focus. So there were big challenges. And you know, first of all, we had a good story on why that is needed because it was obvious that the complexity was with the customer. And also, if you look at innovation and the pace of innovation, how that accelerates for a technology company like us, we need to be very close to customers and need to understand customers and ecosystems holistically. If you have different bits and pieces in a company and everybody knows a part, you don't get the requirements together for your next technology that you need to build. Running a business unit out of Germany for a US company. Can you give a little bit more insights how this works and how the decision process looked like to build this up? Because as you said, in Germany we have the automotive, which from an industry perspective sounds like easier to work. to get, but you are leading the data center solutions out of Germany. So it's ever, can you give a little bit more insights how this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are for both for the automotive segment and for my data center segment. We are part of the Keysight leadership team. And you know, we built our strategic plan of record, you know, typically for a three years window together where we, you know, look at, you can talk about the Keysight leadership model later, you know, how do we allocate capital? Right. And I think one of the big changes when we moved, you know, out of Agilent technologies and became Keysight is that we created a one Keysight culture. So we have different verticals, but we have a very close collaboration in the leadership team to always look at, you know, what is the best, you know, capital application, the best thing to do for Keysight and how can we, you know, maximize value for Keysight for the customers for shareholders and then also, you know, build an environment for our employees to grow. So if you say there's a culture, what would you say? How, if you would describe it in one sentence, what is the culture? The culture is a collaborative culture. I think it's really, you know, building, building something great, bleeding innovation, helping customers to excel. And I think that is what the team makes proud, you know, to be part of many innovations that you use in your daily life. That is very exciting. So you're one of the things that I'm really curious about is leveraging across parent and the spin-off, right? So because there's always this idea that once you are out of a company, you kind of, you know, weaken your dependence and many companies are unable to leverage. Is there a way you've been able to leverage Agilent's capabilities or people or ideas or you're totally disconnected? Completely disconnected. So the spin of was really a separation of the electronic measurement group and the life science team. And actually when we, when you look at the Agilent days, you know, we try to find the synergies between, you know, life science and electronic measurements. And there were a couple of those, but, you know, at the end, you know, you have different technologies. You have a different investor community. And it didn't really give, you know, any leverage or synergies. And that was then also led to the spin-off of Keysight and things. So was it like a clean breakup for? Yes. Okay. So there were, it wasn't a clean, clean breakup. You have it to be sure that you call yourself something. Exactly. So we basically, when we were spun off, you know, in 2014 in November, we basically, that was the first time we appeared at the New York Stock Exchange. So we were listed at Keysight Technologies completely separated. Looking at the world today, it looks like it's complicated for every industry, for every company. So how is it for Keysight at the moment? How is it for you business line data center? I mean, at the, on the one hand, you are bringing innovation, digitization to the world. So there's a strong demand, I'm sure. But at the same time, I can imagine there that also you have challenges when it comes to your supply chain and so on. So can you give us a little bit of an overview of what the current challenges are with the world out there for Keysight and for your business? Yeah. Yeah. So the supply chain, you know, I would say that was an issue for, you know, maybe the last two years. I think we handled this really brilliantly. So we didn't have any customers, you know, who couldn't get their solution. We put teams in place that looked at, you know, the supply chain situation. We looked at, you know, what parts of the products would need redesign to make sure we can, you know, assure supply for those, for those products and solutions. And then also, you know, the, the new products and solutions we had in the pipeline for NPI's, we looked at, you know, is with what we had planned in terms of components, is that, is a doable order we need to redesign? And then we have an excellent, order fulfillment team also globally operating out of Pindung that, you know, I must say we, we, you know, we've really been lucky and, you know, managed the time quite well. But of course it was a big uncertainty, you know, when this whole supply chain crisis started. Right. But we have, if you compare that to the automotive industry, for example, we were nothing like that. Right. So we did not have any, any issues where we couldn't build a product or couldn't ship a product or could not prioritize that we could serve the market. Right. Okay. But what would you say? What are the biggest challenges for you at the moment? You say you have a very attractive products. You are very innovative. We, you are building the digital world, but, but still what are the biggest challenges? I would say the biggest challenge in general is if you look at, you know, what we do, we need to enable the biggest innovators. And that means we need to be a head with our technology of what everybody else is building. And, uh, Keysight has a centralized Keysight labs where we build our own technology. We build our own chips. We build our own A6 or on packaging for when it's needed. You know, everything we can get off the shelf. We, of course, get off the shelf. But then there is a lot of components and A6 that we need to build ourselves. We have our own fab on technology. And that's always the challenge to anticipate, you know, what, what are the next moves? And what do we need to get into the technology pipe? Because that takes some time to develop those chips and the technology that that aligns with your solution development. Right. And that's also, you know, the, the benefit of having industry verticals, because you have industry verticals getting that condensed knowledge and, you know, collaborating with customers or sometimes we say, co-innovating that we are really part of the industry and better understand, you know, what is needed, what technology need to do. We need to face in, but that's, you know, definitely an ongoing challenge on, you know, how to make those anticipation and build that next technology. Do you find talent short in Germany? In general, yes, I think talent is short in Germany. We are, you know, trying hard to attract talent. And, you know, if you look at the name, key side is well known with our customers. If you would, you know, ask, you know, tell us if they knew HP better than key side, you would probably get it. Yes. But what is exciting to see is for us when we get young talents into our office in, in bubbling or in bohum, that's really exciting to see because, you know, those talents suddenly see what we do here in Germany. And, you know, what kind of technology is possible and how we enable our customers. And then so it's, it's easy for us to get the talents, you know, once we can tell people, you know, what we do, but in general, you know, I think it's not easy to get a pool pool of talent. And, you know, we have collaborations with the universities, you know, also if you look in, in bohum, in a very close collaboration there, you know, we have interns, you know, that we get, you know, from many places in the world. And that's a good, you know, pipeline to see those interns, you know, that want to stay, that we basically convert those into permanent employees. And since we got you here, we need to ask you a question about AI. Yeah. So how is AI affecting you as key site? So first of all, AI is fueling a lot of growth. If you look at, you know, all the big data center companies, if you look at Microsoft Google, Amazon, anybody, the race is about AI. And we enable AI. So all the infrastructure that goes into AI is, you know, we enable that. And, you know, all the technology needs to build. So that's a growth, a big growth vector. And especially if you look at, you know, the competition on that next big thing, you know, building an AI platform, but also democratizing AI is, you know, it's everybody what is looking for those. For us, you know, we see that as a, as a huge opportunity. Are you using AI to improve your processes internally or changing your business model? Yes. We do that as well, especially if you look at the CRM system, you know, how you do marketing and to end automation. We use that. We use that also. You know, we have a channel for refurbished equipment. For example, we analyze, you know, with AI, you know, pricing and, you know, how do you set the right offering? So there are, you know, multiple touchpoints where we use AI, but it definitely, you know, if you see, you know, how those capabilities increase, you know, that will be a much bigger part in the future as well. Especially when we talk about the generative AI, you know, we use that, you know, not systematically, but I think that's an opportunity for, I would say, every company to see on how do you, how do you use also generative AI in the future? Yeah. So it's good to hear that you take the own medicine of AI for your business, but coming back to your business environment, who are your main competitors in this area? Because it sounds like you need to work very integrated with your customers. So these kind of relationships, business relationships, seems to start very early. So how should we anticipate how, how does your competition looks like? And how does a project starts at your end? Yeah. I think if you look at competition, it's pretty much the competition. works like we work back in the division days. And it's just that you could look at each of the competitors being a division. And that is also when you go back to, when we started, the fresh company in 2014, that we found ourselves being multiple competitors consolidated and working against different vendors, different competitors at customers. And I think that's a big advantage for Keysight. That when we, I would say that the biggest advantage is when we go to a customer, we don't have a certain product in mind that we want to sell for our competitors. That's typically the case. So you have a certain set of products. So you go there, you want to make a sale. So you look, how does my product fit into the project schedule into that development? So when I go to a customer, I'm basically fully relaxed because I can listen to the challenges. And then we can see what makes sense. What is the solution for what the customer is trying to do? Because we have that breadth of portfolio that I can really tailor everything to what's customers needs. And I don't need to try to argument why a certain product is at this phase of the project needed. But I can basically look at what is the stage of the project, what are the design tools that you need, what are the services that you need, the different solution elements, and then also grow with a customer when you go from all the way from design to validation and then eventually into manufacturing. So if I summarize it, it means that you are developing solutions. So it's like consulting work, actually. But you also own the components that you need to build a solution. And this is something other competitors are not so capable of. So they are more focusing on some of the components they like to sell. Is it right? That's correct. And I wouldn't say it's not a consultancy business per se. But we have that element. So we have services and those services could be a consultancy or could be building that solution. So you have those different components. And if you customize and tailor something to specific requirements, we have those service teams that would add the customer. Understanding what is required is where you say our solution depends on what is required. And I need to understand first what is really required to build a solution. And this is also the differentiating factor in competition. Absolutely. Absolutely. Talking about your customers. You have many customers. So these are the Google softness world. Or can you-- it's the cloud service providers and that whole food chain. So every company that builds chips and ASICs for service and servers are integrated into data centers, then we have an old ecosystem of optical and electrical component vendors that build things like optical transceivers that do optical data communication. Those are part of a data center and connect those different servers to aggregate all the data and basically communicate with someone like you sitting at your laptop and making a request. So that whole ecosystem and chain of optical and electrical component module system makers that eventually build up a data center that a Google Amazon would run. Got it. So let's talk about Silicon Valley and its influence over you here. So your roots are in Silicon Valley. You're still part of the ecosystem over there. Let's start from an entrepreneurial point of view. So how do you discover entrepreneurial opportunities in Keysight for new businesses, new growth opportunities? I think it's really connecting with the industry. And if you talk about entrepreneurial, when we made the change to go from horizontal to vertical business groups, we painted the vision of what we want to achieve and the ecosystem that we wanted to engage with and built that ecosystem map with a team. And that felt like a startup. And it freed up a lot of energy. And I think by being close to customers and knowing the complete ecosystem, you see the trends, for example, of higher integration of electronics and optics. Or if you look in the car industry, the car becomes-- or is already a computer on wheels. We serve the industry with battery test, with one of the latest solutions we built was a radar scene emulator. So we work with car makers and look at how can car makers test their autonomous drive without having to drive through the city and do the life driving. And that is where when you really understand the whole industry, where those innovations come and you build those completely new solutions. This brings us to a topic which is high on the agenda of many executives and I think of the society in general, which is sustainability. So what would you say? How is Keysight tackling with this topic? How do you help to make the world more sustainable and at the same time with how you do business, how do you incorporate ESG standards and these things in your business approach? So first of all, of course, we have our own targets and we want to be a decade ahead of the Paris Agreement with being net zero in Keysight. So that's one. And we have ongoing projects to see, how can you save power? Do you have intelligent lighting? Do you have solar panels? Do you have an electronic car fleet? How do you reduce power for your data centers? I think those are all a lot of internal things to see how do we become net zero and we have many projects there. But what impact we have globally, if you look at the automotive industry, so we enable battery cars, we enable automotive driving that we eventually lead to a completely new way of transportation because it's not only the move from combustion engine to electrical, it's also how many cars do we really need and how do we help the world to go to a new way of transportation. And then for the data center business, for our customers, there are two metrics. One is cost and the other is power and the industry measures that with Pico Joule per gigabit. So you have a certain bandwidth that you can transmit and what is the energy you consume? And it is for two reasons. One is power is very expensive. If you look at the megawatts you need for data centers, the chat GPT-3E took 1.3 megawatt hours to train. So that's $4.3 million and JetGPD-4 is assumed to take $100 million just for training costs. So it's a huge cost to train it. And of course, the discussion is also ongoing to say, is that responsible to have those large data centers? Everybody likes to watch Netflix movies and use chat GPT, but it consumes a lot of power. And the industry is really focused on getting power consumption down there is where we help with our innovation. The efficiency of the system is driven by you. Absolutely. Yeah. If you look at new semiconductors that are developed, we enable those new semiconductors. We test those new chips. And then every generation is dramatically reducing the power consumption relative to the data that it transmits. So I think that's a big contribution. And then of course, data centers also look, can you use green energy, how do you balance it as well? But making data transmission more efficient is a huge part of enabling that. So I like the importance of innovation for sustainability and that you are really contributing through this to the system. Yes. And it's also we talked about talents before. And in Germany, every quarter we have our communication or coffee talks. And I talk to every single person that comes to Germany. And it's first of all, it's very refreshing to see what's on people's mind. Everybody has expectations and a lot of energy. So that's very exciting. But also you see more and more often how important, especially for the young generation, sustainability is and also what do we give back to the society? So I have more often than not especially young people sitting at my desk. And they say, if you wouldn't make a contribution to society, I would not be interested. So I'm interested in what I do. I like the technology. But if that wasn't contributing, and if you would not be giving back something, I'm not sure if that was my company. So I see that it's important. Which is a fair point to me. So what is your German about your culture? So we combine the German engineering spirit with a US corporate. And for me, I think it would probably be difficult if I would move to a traditional German companies sitting in a queue. I think we have a very open culture and together with our engineering heads that is a very good fit to spur innovation. In our teams, anybody can make any suggestion, talk about any idea anybody can come to. My desk, there's no hierarchy, there's just collaboration and that's person innovation. So nobody needs to be afraid of making a bad suggestion because every suggestion is good because it brings you further. I think the combination of German engineering minds with this is very open, entrepreneurial, as culture. Best of both worlds. How do you keep your company agile as you grow? I think one is having a diverse team and we have DEEI, panel in Keysight. I'm also part of it, one of the executives there. I think it's important to make sure that you keep a diverse set of employees. That's what we look for also when we have interns, when we attract talents. I think that's very important. So diversity in the sense of gender, nationality is education background. Education background skillsets. I mentioned that earlier, when you also for the transformation, when you have your vertical business units and you have horizontal R&D centers, that was a key challenge but also important to see what is the skill mix of what you have. I'm a strong believer of building on people's skills. You always need to change and learn but I think identifying where can somebody contribute with skills. If you have a team with a diverse skill set, that sets you up for success, building those transformations where you set a lot of people who want to work in a vertical, they have a certain mindset and they can contribute that skill set and then you have others where you say they perfectly fit into a vertical and building that mix and getting that mix into the company to then adopt and build that team. I think that's important. Jochem, we talk a lot about the engineering excellence, we talk a lot about the products, the customers looking at the corporate transformation, looking at the corporate functions. Let's take an example. I'm from finance, so I'm also always interested in how do you look at the finance function? Does the finance function of your company? How can it contribute to the success of your business? What would you say? What is the role of the corporate function in this very innovative business model that you run? I think finance is essential. In especially, and it's also part of our leadership model is capital allocation. Making decisions on how do you apply your capital, if you look at how much do you invest in R&D? We invest 16% of our revenue roughly in R&D. Pretty high percentage. Then making decisions on if you look at M&A's, we do very selective M&A's. We are not a company that buys a lot of companies and build our corporate cultures around, but very selective where it makes financial sense, where it fits a strategy, and I think that's a big part of financial functions to model that and to model that business for us. So to drive the business sense of all the decisions that you need to take, that's how finance can contribute? Absolutely. Helping all functions to run that operating model. We have an excellent operating model. We excel and improve operational excellence and that is what finance can help us with if we look at margin expansion, for example, or I think different ways on how do we improve operational excellence? How do you improve the financial performance of a company? Because that, in turn, you can invest in new products and solutions and that's a wheel that you need to keep flying basically. We talked about your usage of AI. We talked about how much you contribute to the digitization of the world, how you build the backbone of digitization of all the new technologies evolving. So looking at how do you also use technology when it comes to your HR function, when it comes to finance, when it comes to procurement, how digitized would you say, is your operating model in the headquarter or corporate functions? I think we are pretty digitized and we also have an IT function that basically defines transitions and how we improve for digitization. I talked about marketing automation. We have centralized manufacturing in Penang and procurement systems and all the IT infrastructure. Those projects are basically centralized planned on how we drive first digitization for the company. Interesting. Again, it comes to taking your own medicine, applying it in the way how you operate. Absolutely. So much. Over to you. Let's talk about leadership then. One area which we haven't touched yet. Every time you meet a new employee, what leadership advice do you give if you give any? I think if I could give one advice, it is being open-minded and not painting the way you think your career should go. So I didn't do that when I came to Keysight or to Adjeland at that time. If you have a certain personality and style, then opportunities come to you and the company will ask who can take more responsibility and then you raise your arm and that's how you excel. I have seen people trying to want to force it and I don't think that's a good way of doing it. I think if you are open-minded, if you always contribute and always try also to do a little bit the job of your next level and have that mindset before you say when I'm not having that level, I don't do this kind of job. That's not the right way to do it. But really stepping in if there is accountability to take or responsibility, step in and be accountable for something that you may not own and that brings you visibility and that is how leader's surface is. That would be it. Going along with the leadership topic here, during the spin-off process, was there anything that kind of terrified you as a leader? No, not really. I think it was overall, if you look at you have now a spin-off relatively in-quote small organization and you turn it inside out. Of course, everybody asks the question, will that work out? How big will the disruption be? But I think the transformation made so much sense and I think we could also understand and paint the vision quickly for me. It was the best time of my career for sure. I mentioned before that it was like a relief that suddenly you could have a completely different impact and painting that vision and transport to the team that was important. Looking at your personal career, you have a very colorful CV, you have a very technical background, you joined the dark side of management. What would you say? How was your way from being so driven by developing and being in the technology space to join more management functions? I would probably say when I had my five years in Darmstadt and developed very exciting technology, developed micro-mechanical filters for the optical industry, very advanced, very technically. I had a lot of fun when I finished that. I said, I have done it in R&D and I want to work with customers to define those technologies. I felt a little bit that working on those different projects and doing R&D would not enable me to see the bigger picture of what customers do and how to enable innovation. That's probably not true if I look at some of my peers that have executive R&D roads. That was my picture at that moment and not from a career motivation, but more, I wanted to work with customers. I wanted to be involved in projects and have that discussion and define what is needed rather than building myself. Very interesting. It was actually when I came to Adjeland at that time, I was offered R&D or marketing positions and they probably wanted to see how determined I am. and they said, "Okay, if we don't give you the marketing job, what do you take the R&D job?" And I said, "No." (laughing) Which was an interesting, I think, response. And they were a little bit surprised, I'm sure. With your background. But I really wouldn't have done it. I think that was for me, it was clear that I wanted to work close with customers, define things. So if you put it into a career advice to a young electronic engineer, what would you tell them? What would they, what should they do if they want to follow a career like yours? Yeah, I think I mentioned being open and taking the next step and then looking for the next next step. I think if you try to plan your career through, then that's, I would say that hinders you more than it opens doors. It's always good to see, for example, if you have an R&D career and you say, "I probably don't want to be my whole life in an R&D function to see what could be complementary." I think that's important, right? To say, "Do I need to have some sales experience?" And would I do some technical function in a sales organization? That's probably wise to do. But I would say, "Don't design your career through too much." But keep your doors open, keep your doors open, your mind open, and then follow your passion. I think that's. So, do you have any plans for the next level then? I think we have a lot still to do in Keysight. So I think in my current role, you know, advancing data centers, I think that's enough to do. And, you know, I'm always open to see, you know, what I can do. But, you know, I'm not planning for different steps. I think it's so much, so many challenges and interesting stuff to do. So, you know, I mean, that's very interesting all we learned today, because I'm very happy to hear how important we out of Germany still are playing in the field of developing these data center solutions. How much we also help to build the backbone of digitization. I think sometimes it's not a present enough. We do see that all of this is happening outside of Europe, outside of Germany. But we have places like yours who are really contributing to it and developing the future of digitization. So that's a very, very positive takeaway from today. Absolutely. And, of course, all you are saying about how to run a company, how to face the challenges. And, of course, also the career advice you are giving. And they are not just applicable for engineers, right? So they are also important for MBAs, you see it, all right? Okay, so let's ask our perennial question then. Yes. Correct. Final question. So, Jochen, we always like to learn more even after a podcast with a person like you. So, what would be a good book read podcast that you would recommend us to hear, to listen, to read? Yeah. So, I think there are probably a lot of business books and things you could read. But, you know, I talked a lot about being open-minded. And one book that really impressed me was a short history of humankind. It's from Joval Noah Harari. It's very inspiring and it takes a man-kind into 550 pages. And that's mind-opening and that's a recommendation. No, it's a very good book. I read it and I can not. I'm very convinced it's a very good read, yeah, thanks for this advice. Well, thank you then for a wonderful conversation. Thank you for having me. It was an eye-opener, as Gori said, in many ways. And we wish you all the best. And I hope you'll hear more about Keysight and the achievements going forward. Oh, so too. Especially the German. Yes, the German. run global business units. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. That was Leading Corporate Transformation, the podcast by Vika Ul-Aurobysime School of Management, powered by PWC. Editorial team, Marvanschuna and Zimangirlach.